Armistice day

[gordonmull]

Is it only me that's thinking what mockery armistice day has become? I always thought that "Lest we forget" meant that we would always remember the wars in Europe and never let this happen again. Yet half the news articles on the subject have Iraq and Afganistan every two sentences.

Sorry but I really do not think that our forces fighting highly questionable wars in Afganistan and Iraq are "fighting for their country, to preserve our freedom" (Radio Sheffield, this morning, for example). I do not see what this has to do with ARMISTICE day. This is a day about peace and remembering the hell, sorrow, loss and pain that war brings and making new vow to always, always remember never to let it happen again.

The difference is we now have a professional army of people who know what they are letting themselves in for. If this is what you choose then fine but don't expect me to have a big lump in my throat for you. You fight in an illegal war for money. There are other names for this kind of work.

During WWII and WWI most of the combatants were ordinary people, drafted into the services who had the choice between jail, social rejection and doing nothing to protect their families from an actual, real, non-media invented enemy or facing the realities of war. These people are and, sorrowfully, were real heros.

So we seem to have a situation whereby we (or the media, at least), spend more time remembering our "heros" in Afganistan and thinking about the modern KIA than we do thinking about how we shouldn't get into these situations in the first place.

This armistice day, I'm disgusted. The message has been lost.

We've forgotten.

I don't mean to insult military employees, but neither am I particularly ingraciated to them for fighting pointless wars. I do a dangerous job myself working with all sorts of hazardous waste. Not glamourous, no uniform and in an industry with a huge background of injuries, deaths and permanent mutilations/disease. I chose to earn my bread this way, if the drum I open tomorrow gasses off something toxic in my face or gives me a lungful of asbestos because someone decided that it would be cheaper just to chuck it in there and not declare it, then it does. Believe me, it happens. I know the risks of my job, they know the risks of theirs.

[Platapus]

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

I honour the members of our military doing their duty to carry out our nation's policy as determined by our civilian command.

It is not up to the military person to be concerned with whether this or that war is good or bad. Our duty is to carry out our legal orders to the best of our ability.

Some may think that is just shirking responsibility and you may be one of them. Others, and that would include me, think it is part of the commitment to our country.

During my 20 years in the military, I was involved in "situations" that I strongly did not approve of. If they were released to the public, perhaps you too would not approve of them. However, it was my duty (legal and moral) to put aside my personal viewpoints and implement my nation's policy.

That is what is meant by being a Military Professional -- putting your country first, even if you disagree with the policy.

Today, I honoured all the Military Professionals, past and present, who also put their personal viewpoints behind them and carry out the mission.

Why? Simply because that is what we do in the military. :salute:

[the_tyrant]

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

I honour the members of our military doing their duty to carry out our nation's policy as determined by our civilian command.

It is not up to the military person to be concerned with whether this or that war is good or bad. Our duty is to carry out our legal orders to the best of our ability.

Some may think that is just shirking responsibility and you may be one of them. Others, and that would include me, think it is part of the commitment to our country.

During my 20 years in the military, I was involved in "situations" that I strongly did not approve of. If they were released to the public, perhaps you too would not approve of them. However, it was my duty (legal and moral) to put aside my personal viewpoints and implement my nation's policy.

That is what is meant by being a Military Professional -- putting your country first, even if you disagree with the policy.

Today, I honoured all the Military Professionals, past and present, who also put their personal viewpoints behind them and carry out the mission.

Why? Simply because that is what we do in the military. :salute:

I agree:yep:
the role of the military is to serve and extend the country's political goals
and the role of an individual solder is to follow orders

[Oberon]

As Ronnie once said "People don't start wars, governments start wars."

The armed forces are doing the best they can in a terrible situation, in a war that...well...IMHO anyway, it's questionable that they can win with the resources and ROE they have been given. When one adds this to the continual shafting they receive year after year in the budget reviews, well, it's a small miracle that we haven't had Challenger IIs firing on Downing Street yet, and indeed a tribute to their restraint and belief that those above them know what they're doing...but then again, that's really how it has to be, because the moment you start questioning the orders you're given, when you start hesitating when given an order, then there's a good chance you'll be a goner before long. They do not teach obedience in basic just for kicks after all. Of course, one can argue that blind obedience can only go so far, and that's what the MOD and Defence Minister is supposed to be there for, but that seems to have gotten lost along the line somewhere...but such is the modern era.

I think the point of Armistice day, was first to honour the dead of the first world war, then post '45 the dead of the second...there will always be war, and there will always be soldiers coming back with their countries flags draped over them, it is a sad fact of human existence, but the point of the day is not to consider how they died, or where, but what they died for, they died for their country, for us. It is easy to separate the sides in a conflict to 'them' and 'us', but even in Afghanistan those who are killed are still someones family, even if they believe that it is their god given right to brutally murder someone elses family. It is a fact that war kills people, and Armistice day pays respect to that fact, that despite our great enlightenment, we still have a long way to go in terms of co-existence and human nature, it is a plea for 'never again' after every war, but with the solemn knowledge that there will be another time, another war, perhaps even another world war, but perhaps one day, people will actually remember...instead of just standing silently for two minutes thinking about their shopping, they will remember the crater ridden fields of Flanders, the ruins of Stalingrad, the streets of Berlin, the fields of Korea, the jungles of Vietnam, Kosovo, Somalia, Iraq, Afghanistan...they will remember the casualties of war, and they will realise that conflict, despite having some positive side effects in technological advancement, as well as the reduction of human growth patterns, is essentially a self-destructive man-made cycle.

Perhaps one day it really will be 'never again' but until then, let us think of all those killed by war, be they soldiers or civilians, let us really think...and then one day, perhaps everyone will really think together...

And no, I am not John Lennon, and yes, I am wishing for the impossible...but that's the cynic in me.

Personally, today, for me, has been about thinking of those in my family who fought in the First and Second World wars, and the Malayan crisis. They have been prominent in my mind today, and all those who served with them.

[gordonmull]

it's a small miracle that we haven't had Challenger IIs firing on Downing Street yet

Well I wouldn't blame them.

I do know (from what is reported) some of the pressures the armed forces are under. Overstretched (even before afganistan and iraq), undermanned and underequipped as it is, with worse to come. I also understand that their employees are bound by their instructions from the government.

I still think the army's main purpose is to serve in defense of the realm. We have, as a (comparatively) rich western country, no need to project force of arms. The Empire is long over.

Perhaps one day it really will be 'never again' but until then, let us think of all those killed by war, be they soldiers or civilians, let us really think...and then one day, perhaps everyone will really think together...

I think you have hit the nail smack bang on the head and perhaps my initial argument was a little harsh. But the colour of the poppy grows redder and redder with every passing year. People really need to think. Especially the media. Glorifying folk who are out doing their job into hereos and making it romantic does not help. We're quick to put photos of victims of assault into the media and folk are quick to outrage - (look at what that b****** did to them!) What about graphic photos of every KIA/WIA? (obviously if family/injured agreed, not that HM Govt would!)

It might help people sit up and listen.

Yes war will always happen, but those nations that have suffered the absolute devestation of total war should know better and set an example to the rest of the world. I really do think that, mainsteam, the poppies growing in flanders fields have long been forgotten. It was a symbol of peace.

[Platapus]

I still think the army's main purpose is to serve in defense of the realm. We have, as a (comparatively) rich western country, no need to project force of arms. The Empire is long over.



And sometimes the best defense is a good defense. :know:

[saltysplash]

Well I wouldn't blame them.

I do know (from what is reported) some of the pressures the armed forces are under. Overstretched (even before afganistan and iraq), undermanned and underequipped as it is, with worse to come. I also understand that their employees are bound by their instructions from the government.

I still think the army's main purpose is to serve in defense of the realm. We have, as a (comparatively) rich western country, no need to project force of arms. The Empire is long over.



I think you have hit the nail smack bang on the head and perhaps my initial argument was a little harsh. But the colour of the poppy grows redder and redder with every passing year. People really need to think. Especially the media. Glorifying folk who are out doing their job into hereos and making it romantic does not help. We're quick to put photos of victims of assault into the media and folk are quick to outrage - (look at what that b****** did to them!) What about graphic photos of every KIA/WIA? (obviously if family/injured agreed, not that HM Govt would!)

It might help people sit up and listen.

Yes war will always happen, but those nations that have suffered the absolute devestation of total war should know better and set an example to the rest of the world. I really do think that, mainsteam, the poppies growing in flanders fields have long been forgotten. It was a symbol of peace.

While I understand what your getting at Im afraid I dont feel the same way.

I dont see the media as glorifiying our military, I see it as supporting them and letting them know that they are not forgotten in what is a difficult and dangerous conflict. Not one of them should come home feeling alone and unappreciated.

Yes our forces are there to protect the homeland but we also have a wider responsibility under NATO and the UN and the International community to do our part.

Not every conflict is seen as justified by everyone, I have still yet to be convinced about Afganistan, However, my thought and support are with our men and women who find themselves over there.

As to Armistice day, for me it has always been about remembering all our fallen.
When Armistice day was first introduced following WW1 I doubt many wished to go through it all again, yet 20 years later the world was again fighting.

My own personal thoughts yesterday was for a friend who didnt return from the Falklands and a school mate who was badly injured in Belfast.

Theirs is the ultimate sacrifice and I for one am greatfull

[UnderseaLcpl]

We will have to agree to disagree on this.

As will you and I, I'm sure.


I honour the members of our military doing their duty to carry out our nation's policy as determined by our civilian command.

Duty without discretion is nothing but another way of saying that blind obedience is good, which it never is.


It is not up to the military person to be concerned with whether this or that war is good or bad. Our duty is to carry out our legal orders to the best of our ability.


I do not agree at all. To me, that is simply deference of responsibility and lazy thinking. Servicemembers have an obligation to take responsibility for the power they wield and exercise flawless personal judgement. That is what seperates soldiers from kids with guns, and it is why I often argue that the US military must be at least partially privatized and reformed into an institution that doesn't simply draw recruits from the dregs of society and brainwash them into drones capable of following orders. Real soldiers must be drawn from the ranks of society that lend themselves towards being real soldiers, whtether out of a sense of honor or self-interst.

Some may think that is just shirking responsibility and you may be one of them. Others, and that would include me, think it is part of the commitment to our country.

Again, commitment means nothing when it is exercised blindly. Any fool can be persuaded to commit to something, given the proper impetus. It takes a true soldier to stand up for what is right and just, even in the face of orders.


During my 20 years in the military, I was involved in "situations" that I strongly did not approve of. If they were released to the public, perhaps you too would not approve of them. However, it was my duty (legal and moral) to put aside my personal viewpoints and implement my nation's policy.

If the public of a nation does not approve of something, there is a good chance that it isn't right to begin with. There is no morality in accepting a policy simply because it is a policy.


That is what is meant by being a Military Professional -- putting your country first, even if you disagree with the policy.

Negative. Being a military professional means being a professional in a military situation. It means being a professional warfighter and nothing else. It means not compromising your ideals for the sake of anything, even your personal safety or repute.

To be a good soldier is to be a truly selfless individual, not for the sake of God or country, but for the sake of selflessness and the mission, no matter the cost. It is putting the needs of the weak ahead of everything, even if it results in your death.

Real soldiers, including real professionals, like mercenaries, will accept this burden. Whether they perform out of sense of honor or for personal gain or both is unimportant.


Today, I honoured all the Military Professionals, past and present, who also put their personal viewpoints behind them and carry out the mission.


I sure as hell didn't.

I'm not about to honor some fool who joined with aspirations of a free college education that just happened to get blown to pieces while he was cowering behind the armored plates of a MAC-Armor HMMWV. Nor am I about to honor children led by idiots who think a foot patrol in a known IED-threat-area in broad daylight. These people are your soldiers, Platapus.



Why? Simply because that is what we do in the military. :salute:


Simply because that is what we do in kindergarten? Simply because we do what we are told? Simply because we automatically assume that someone in charge knows what is best and directs us towards that end? I've had my fill of seeing what a handful of kids with guns can do to civlians when theyt are justified by national interest.

I don't mean to insult or belittle you, Platapus, despite the tone of my post. I only mean to call to your attention the nature of military service in the world, past and present, and your attitude towards it. There is no honor in blind obedience. Obedience alone is no basis for honor. More than enough atrocities have been committed by obedient soldiers.

[Penguin]

well said, UnderseaLcpl, in pointing out individual resonsibility - though I don't agree on the private military part, but that's another thing to discuss.

Here the 11/11 is no holiday, busy Germans have to work - and even the lazy ones like me ;). So correct me if I'm wrong, but in my understanding Armistice day in Western Europe is mainly to remember the end of World War One and its casualties - military and civilian. Eventually it evolved into remembering all deaths of all wars. As any rememberence day I see it more as a quiet, silent day - Biggles startet imo an appropriate threat about it with thoughtfull words and pictures.

I hold no occupational group as high, that I would said they are all brave and above anything. Some of the greatest idiots I've met were in the military and some of the greatest folks were soldiers. Though I think some of the most annoying soldiers were the ones who never saw combat - this is nothing against fobbits, quite the opposite. I am talking about the soldiers who are at home or in safe countries and brag how hardcore thewy are...:nope:

[Sailor Steve]

So correct me if I'm wrong, but in my understanding Armistice day in Western Europe is mainly to remember the end of World War One and its casualties - military and civilian. Eventually it evolved into remembering all deaths of all wars.
Here in America it grew to become 'Veteran's Day', and is used to honor veterans of all wars. Several local restaurants offer free meals to veterans, so I pulled out my VA card and gorged myself yesterday. :D

[Penguin]

Here in America it grew to become 'Veteran's Day', and is used to honor veterans of all wars. Several local restaurants offer free meals to veterans, so I pulled out my VA card and gorged myself yesterday. :D

That's what I meant, that in countries like Belgium or France, where most of the Western Front fighting took place the Armistice day is different.

I hope you enjoyed you meal(s?), Steve! :salute:
Actually I do support american veterans by using a veterans taxi where available, when using a cab in The US. The drivers can speak english, are great conversation partners who often share some interesting views and stories. They know the difference between shots and firecrackers and very important: they are used to drunk people - or Penguins - with weird accents and views ;)!

[Sailor Steve]

I agree that the original meaning has been somewhat lost. Such a sad Irony that they actually thought it would be "The War to End All Wars."

[Platapus]

I agree that the original meaning has been somewhat lost. Such a sad Irony that they actually thought it would be "The War to End All Wars."

I don't think any military strategists or political analysts at that time ever considered it a war to end all wars.

I think that was something dreamed up by a politician/media.

You would think people would learn from the Titanic publicity fiasco.

[Sailor Steve]

And you could be right. I didn't think of that angle.