A case for government intervention?

[Bilge_Rat]

When the U.S. and Canadian government pumped billions of dollars and took over ownership of GM, it looked like a case of throwing good money down the drain. Based on pure free market theories, GM should have been allowed to fail and the market left to more efficient foreign automakers.

Now GM is turning a profit, planning a new stock offering and it looks like the government will eventually make its money back:

DETROIT — A week before its initial public offering, General Motors reported its largest quarterly profit in 11 years on Wednesday, showing that the slimmed-down automaker no longer needed huge sales to generate significant earnings.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/11/business/11auto.html?hpw

so, is all government intervention in the marketplace bad?
...or is it just one additional tool that can be used on a case by case basis.

[GoldenRivet]

If you injected a trillion dollars into my small business... I'll bet i could show a profit on the books.

its the principle of the matter. So many people were opposed to the bailout and they did it anyway.

GM may be turning a profit, but this is only after massive restructuring.

The GM you see now, is essentially not the same GM that collapsed a few short years ago.

problem is they are probably going to have themselves back in the same crappy situation in several years again anyhow.

[tater]

What helped GM, the bailout, or the restructuring? They fired a fair % of employees, closed a bunch of plants (over a dozen facilities I think), dumped some brands (Saab, Hummer, Saturn, Pontiac), etc.

All they need to do is to get rid of their insane reimbursement to workers and they'll be more like the Japanese companies that are kicking their butts (oh, and make some cars that don't suck).

[SteamWake]

Just wait till they put that 'volt' on the market.. thatll turn things around :haha:

I dident see any mention of the pension issue there :hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

What helped GM, the bailout, or the restructuring?


Ultimately restructuring. Pontiac just died a silent death last week. Saturn died a silent death. Oldsmobile died two years ago. What is left? Chevy, GMC, Caddy and Buick. If not for the Chinese loving Buicks this arm of the GM company would have gone the route of silent death.

However, the bailout did allow GM to silently restructure. I do not feel GM is a survivor though.

[The Third Man]

What the article failed to mention.....

But GM warned that it expects fourth-quarter operating profit to come in well below the level of the first three quarters of the year because it is pulling back on production of trucks and making more small cars, which have narrower margins.

and........the gouging of the very folks who own GM.

GM's results indicate the company's North American unit earned an average of $3,005 on every vehicle it made in the third quarter, a reflection of its drive to boost truck output during the summer. GM also is commanding higher prices for cars and smaller sport-utility vehicles. By comparison, Ford Motor Co. earned $2,710 on each vehicle it produced in North America in the quarter, and Chrysler Group LLC earned $593 per vehicle.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748703805004575606200306436706.html

[the_tyrant]

What caused the problem at GM?
is it because of the managements bad management?
Or was it that they over payed their employees?

[tater]

What caused the problem at GM?
is it because of the managements bad management?
Or was it that they over payed their employees?

Yes.

[AVGWarhawk]

What caused the problem at GM?
is it because of the managements bad management?
Or was it that they over payed their employees?

Add some of the ugliest vehicles you have ever laid eyes on as well.

Really, wth:

http://i380.photobucket.com/albums/oo245/sofine_idc/LoungeKaskus/pontiac_aztec.jpg

A car they should never have killed:

http://www.treehugger.com/ugly-car-h002.jpg

Toss in some unreliablity and voila!.....the accounts are in the red and operating in the negative.

[SteamWake]

Ah this may explain their projections a little.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/11/ge-to-buy-25k-electric-fleet-vehicles/

GE huh... of course what goes around comes around.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Obamas-hidden-bailout-of-General-Electric_03_04-40686707.html

[Takeda Shingen]

What caused the problem at GM?
is it because of the managements bad management?
Or was it that they over payed their employees?

GM was a perfect storm of corporate trouble; poor management, poor business model, excessive benefits, the fleecing of the company by the unions and inferior products to boot. Some companies deserve to go out of business, and GM was one of them.

[tater]

The GM bailout was. Union bailout. They should have been allowed to fail. Real reorganization would have nuked pensions etc and still saved the company this was done as payback to the unions by the admin

[The Third Man]

This should help GM, but it may induce a bailout for GE.

GE said Thursday it will buy 25,000 electric vehicles by 2015 in hopes of sparking demand for the emerging market for which it makes charging stations and other infrastructure.

Those charging stations must be very pricey indeed if GE can buy the cars to boost sales of the charging station. Or is it more smoke and mirrors, for which the tax payer will be on the hook.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GE-to-buy-25000-electric-apf-2972894948.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=7&asset=&ccode=

[Bilge_Rat]

What helped GM, the bailout, or the restructuring?

no doubt the restructuring was the key, but they could not have restructured without the bailout and no one but the Government was willing to lend/invest funds.

Would the U.S. economy be better off in the long run if GM had been allowed to fail? This would have had an impact not only on GM, but the thousands of other companies which supply products to GM.

[GoldenRivet]

but they could not have restructured without the bailout

Its called "Restructuring under Chapter 11 Bankruptcy" :yeah:

its what every other business has had to do up until the dangerous precedent of the government bailout - the message the government has sent to management and CEOs is clear: "Screw up all you want... we will save your asses."

Would the U.S. economy be better off in the long run if GM had been allowed to fail? This would have had an impact not only on GM, but the thousands of other companies which supply products to GM.

we will never know the answer to this question... we will only know that - if it had failed and vanished another would have risen to take its place.

its called the free market. by allowing GM to fail, who knows? perhaps it could have given rise to companies producing highly stylish electric cars, like Aptera or some other small company.

[mookiemookie]

Its called "Restructuring under Chapter 11 Bankruptcy" :yeah:

its what every other business has had to do up until the dangerous precedent of the government bailout - the message the government has sent to management and CEOs is clear: "Screw up all you want... we will save your asses.".

Nail on the head. Prepackaged bankruptcy would have avoided a lot of problems and not set bad precedents. The pandora's box of moral hazard has been opened by bailouts going all the way back to Lockheed in the 70's

[SteamWake]

This should help GM, but it may induce a bailout for GE.

GE said Thursday it will buy 25,000 electric vehicles by 2015 in hopes of sparking demand for the emerging market for which it makes charging stations and other infrastructure.

Those charging stations must be very pricey indeed if GE can buy the cars to boost sales of the charging station. Or is it more smoke and mirrors, for which the tax payer will be on the hook.

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/GE-to-buy-25000-electric-apf-2972894948.html?x=0&sec=topStories&pos=7&asset=&ccode=

Guess you missed my post :06:

[GoldenRivet]

Nail on the head. Prepackaged bankruptcy would have avoided a lot of problems and not set bad precedents. The pandora's box of moral hazard has been opened.

and when Mookie agrees with me...

you better take it to the bank, like right now. :har:

[Takeda Shingen]

we will never know the answer to this question... we will only know that - if it had failed and vanished another would have risen to take its place.

its called the free market. by allowing GM to fail, who knows? perhaps it could have given rise to companies producing highly stylish electric cars, like Aptera or some other small company.

^^This.

One of the major tenants of free market capitalism is that companies that are unable to sustain themselves, as well as the needs of the public, fail. GM was and is unable to do so. What is clear now is that instead of going out of business and possibly giving rise to companies that offer a superior product, it is now a dinosaur on interminable life support from the federal govenment, which has the clear intention of nationalizing the American automotive industry; a result that will be vastly more catastrophic than the loss of General Motors.

[gimpy117]

Ah this may explain their projections a little.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2010/11/11/ge-to-buy-25k-electric-fleet-vehicles/

GE huh... of course what goes around comes around.

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Obamas-hidden-bailout-of-General-Electric_03_04-40686707.html

A hybrid fleet vehicle seems like a good idea. Should save money in the long run. Especially because company cars get a lot of use.

[SteamWake]

A hybrid fleet vehicle seems like a good idea. Should save money in the long run. Especially because company cars get a lot of use.

Saves money :haha:

1.) Inital investment (they aint cheap)

2.) Equipment to keep them charged (it aint cheap) oh sold by GE by the way.

3.) Maintance (batteries do fail and they aint cheap) "Qualified mechanics required". Given GM's past history of reliability.. Ill bed a damn headlight for these gadgets cost 200 bucks.

4.) Limited range (If you want to travel more than 100 miles your going to have to use a 'normal' car).

I see it as a 'feel good' 'show you care' type of sentiment at best.

At least they found a ready made market for them otherwise it would really had been hard to sell them.

[AVGWarhawk]

Meh....GE is probably getting some hugh friggin tax break for buying these cars plus they are lining their own pockets because GE has been very open with advertizing the charging stations. GE see this ploy as a selling tool and will have much to gain if they pull it off.

[SteamWake]

Meh....GE is probably getting some hugh friggin tax break for buying these cars plus they are lining their own pockets because GE has been very open with advertizing the charging stations. GE see this ploy as a selling tool and will have much to gain if they pull it off.

Sigh... Ill forgive because it was on the previous page...

http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/politics/Obamas-hidden-bailout-of-General-Electric_03_04-40686707.html