German police arrest 22 in neo-Nazi internet raid

[Gerald]

German police said on Wednesday they had arrested 22 people suspected of spreading neo-Nazi ideology in a major swoop against far-right internet radio station Widerstand-Radio (Resistance Radio).

In an operation involving some 270 officers, police raided 22 premises across 10 of Germany's 16 states, confiscating numerous computers and telephones, the Federal Crime Office (BKA) said in a statement.
The station could be heard worldwide around the clock, and operated from a server based in the United States, the BKA said. Listeners to the site would register via a false name and address in the western German city of Dortmund, it added.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3979381,00.html








Note:Wednesday, November 3, 2010 7:44:00 PM CET

[Ducimus]

Sweet. :yeah:

[Betonov]

:yeah:

[The Third Man]

Neo-nazi? What does that mean exactly? Is there some codified definition?

[tater]

I hate nazis.

Won't even play one in a game (never flown german planes in il-2, never even looked at the u-boats in SH4 (aside from a couple I sank in the PTO)). Been in ww2ol since closed beta, never spawned german, not once. I watch movies like SPR, and when they shoot the nazis with hands in the air (and yep, I consider anyone in ww2 in a german uniform a nazi, regardless of their actual party membership status), my reaction is "damn straight, the time to surrender is BEFORE you kill so many of the guys who are obviously gonna win."

This story, OTOH... they are being arrested for being morons? Wrong-thinking? I guess this American head can't get too excited about a score of morons being arrested for their thoughts—or were they actively plotting terrorism, or something actually physically criminal?

tater

PS—where is neo-nazi ideology congruent with economic policy that is more free-market, or non-centralized government power, etc? I'm not seeing the "far right" except in the sense it was originally applied tot he nazis—by Stalin.

[Gerald]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism

[Schroeder]

(and yep, I consider anyone in ww2 in a german uniform a nazi, regardless of their actual party membership status),

Wow, just wow.:nope:

[tater]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neo-Nazism

Neo-Nazism consists of post-World War II social or political movements seeking to revive Nazism or some variant thereof.

So they want a command-economy run by an oligarchy of "picked" businessmen, a socialist government with very strong central control, and are genocidal racists.

I'm seeing zero overlap with any "right" political goals. Odd that people continue to use Stalinist propaganda to define a group that is functionally closer to Stalin than any modern political grouping. (know it's been done to death her with Political Compass threads, etc, but this "far right" nonsense WRT nazis is a pet peeve.

[nikimcbee]

I hate nazis.

Won't even play one in a game (never flown german planes in il-2, never even looked at the u-boats in SH4 (aside from a couple I sank in the PTO)). Been in ww2ol since closed beta, never spawned german, not once. I watch movies like SPR, and when they shoot the nazis with hands in the air (and yep, I consider anyone in ww2 in a german uniform a nazi, regardless of their actual party membership status), my reaction is "damn straight, the time to surrender is BEFORE you kill so many of the guys who are obviously gonna win."

This story, OTOH... they are being arrested for being morons? Wrong-thinking? I guess this American head can't get too excited about a score of morons being arrested for their thoughts—or were they actively plotting terrorism, or something actually physically criminal?

tater

PS—where is neo-nazi ideology congruent with economic policy that is more free-market, or non-centralized government power, etc? I'm not seeing the "far right" except in the sense it was originally applied tot he nazis—by Stalin.

No SH3 then?:hmmm:

[tater]

Wow, just wow.:nope:

Germans knew exactly what was going on in Germany. Fighting for Germany in WW2 was fighting for Hitler, and everything that meant. they knew this.

I should not have said anyone in German uniform. I take that back. A few did the right thing and tried to kill Hitler. Those guys were OK in my book.

[tater]

No SH3 then?:hmmm:

Never even considered buying it (nor SH5).

[Oberon]

:hmmm: Eh well, your choice. :salute: Personally I think your brush is a bit big, but if that's what you want to believe, then that is what you want to believe, nothing we say will change it. :yep:

[Task Force]

Germans knew exactly what was going on in Germany. Fighting for Germany in WW2 was fighting for Hitler, and everything that meant. they knew this.

I should not have said anyone in German uniform. I take that back. A few did the right thing and tried to kill Hitler. Those guys were OK in my book.

And you consider the nation that enslaved blacks, and killed millions of natives, and distroyed their culture, and put them on reservations all that much better?

And also the fact that not all german soldiers were nazis, there were some who where, but not all. If your country called on you, and you had to go to war or possiably die, would you say no...

[tater]

And you consider the nation that enslaved blacks, and killed millions of natives, and distroyed their culture all that much better?

First, no, anyone that participated, or didn't speak out against it was culpable.

Or should I just say that only a few in power had any real control, so it was OK to just look the other way?

That said, the USA did not kill millions of natives. Thousands, yes. Millions, no. Millions may have died after first contact with the Spaniards (then brits and French) from disease. Numbers are hard to nail down, some cited are ridiculously high. Still, those people would have died even had the conquistadors really been "explorers" and just looked around and left. The damage was done thanks to bacteria and viruses. By the time the USA was starting to be settled, the native populations had already been more than decimated.

Slavery. Totally wrong from the start. To be fair, the enslavement itself was done by other africans (and was well before there were european buyers around). They were then bought by scumbags in the US. A lot of Americans with no real personal interest in the practice died to end it, for what that is worth, though.

I didn't say modern Germany was culpable in nazi crimes, I said German soldiers were "nazis" as far as I was concerned since they fought to prolong the Reich, and hence everything bad it stood for. Any German who was happy or proud when Poland, France or anywhere else fell is no better—that leaves little of the population left to be "anti-nazi."

[The Third Man]

Slavery was instituted by the British, French, Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, etc. All nations who were involved in European trade.

To blame the US for slavery is to forget the history of the imperial nations, which the US has never been, although the opportunities have existed.

[tater]

The USA was absolutely culpable in slavery. Forget that we stopped importing slaves, people still owned other human beings, and the horse-trading to start the country codified it.

[The Third Man]

Then Egyptians, Romans, Isrealites, Babalonians, Asyrians, etc. were all evil civilizations. English, Spanish, Dutch, etc. All held slaves. Once again, the US was not exclusive in its slavery. Nor did it start it.

[Task Force]

yea, other people had slaves, but that dosent mean the Us should have, you can say we stopped all you want it still happend, and that still dosent excuse what we did to the natives. You could almost call the reservations long term concentration camps. The US did things as the trail of tears, giving the natives blankeds with small pox, ect

[The Third Man]

yea, other people had slaves, but that dosent mean the us should have, and that still dosent excuse what we did to the natives. You could almost call the reservations long term concentration camps.

Keep moving the bar. Now its about the indians. Slavery exists today. Democrats remove the possibility of freedom by giving away money, which will be worth even less tomorrow..

It is slavery by another name, and without the obvious trappings.

[Gerald]

"[The] investigations are a strong hint to people running other extreme-right internet radio stations that dissemination of songs with extreme-right wing and xenophobic lyrics, even on the internet, will be pursued," said BKA head Joerg Ziercke.

He said they had noticed a growing trend among far-right groups to use music to recruit young people.

Last month, the BKA said that over the past decade the number of people with the potential to carry out far-right violence in Germany had doubled to around 9,000.

The BBC's Stephen Evans in Berlin says the arrests come during an intense debate in Germany over immigration, particularly from Muslim countries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11689141



Note: Update post,3 November 2010 Last updated at 21:58 GMT

[Task Force]

Keep moving the bar. Now its about the indians. Slavery exists today. Democrats remove the possibility of freedom by giving away money, which will be worth even less tomorrow..

It is slavery by another name, and without the obvious trappings.

How did the democrats and them giving money away get into this, if you want to complain about our current political situation, find anouther thread. theres hundreds of them.

Oah, and you can complain about me talking about the natives, but its true, and its as bad. Face it, the US has a bad history, as every other country. Were no better than the rest.

[The Third Man]

How did the democrats and them giving money away get into this, if you want to complain about are current political situation, find anouther thread. theres hundreds of them.

I brought it in. I believe that giving people money through social programs, welfare, etc. is a form of slavery. To attain the moneys requires the individual to jump through gov't hoops, and maintain that level of control by government.

The free individual doesn't have the hoops and is not a slave to them.

[Task Force]

I just realised Im discussing something with The third man, hah, thats a waste of time...

[The Third Man]

I just realised Im discussing something with The third man, hah, thats a waste of time...

Because your end of the discussion is flawed? Or, U just afraid, ha.

[Task Force]

Because your end of the discussion is flawed? Or, U just afraid, ha.

No, Its actualy because I think you are a real a*******, who post political bull all the time, and make GT annoying by pushing your stupid political agenda around like a giant pile of ****!

thats why, you are like all the other people who think that subsim is a awsome place to push your stupid politics into threads, when in all actuality almost no one reallys cares, and wants to see it.

I just looked up the new posts, you realise how many threads/posts you have on this political stuff. ITS STUPID DAMNIT, and some people are sick of it, I use to like subsim, and frequent the GT, but nowdays its political slime, and the people who post it!

[tater]

Are a bunch of idiots able to be attracted by MUSIC actually worth giving up freedom of expression over?

Seriously, sounds like a bunch of morons who can't be bothered to get a job, much less take over a nation, lol.

[Ducimus]

Obligatory. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wTtHcqXjQrA&feature=related) :D

[Gerald]

You could not have chosen a better time ...

[the_tyrant]

Neo nazies are quite common in china, mongolia etc
i remember seeing high school kids in china doing the nazi salute and thinking that it was cool:nope:

[the_tyrant]

No, Its actualy because I think you are a real a*******, who post political bull all the time, and make GT annoying by pushing your stupid political agenda around like a giant pile of ****!

thats why, you are like all the other people who think that subsim is a awsome place to push your stupid politics into threads, when in all actuality almost no one reallys cares, and wants to see it.

I just looked up the new posts, you realise how many threads/posts you have on this political stuff. ITS STUPID DAMNIT, and some people are sick of it, I use to like subsim, and frequent the GT, but nowdays its political slime, and the people who post it!

come on, lets play nice;)

[CCIP]

Neo nazies are quite common in china, mongolia etc
i remember seeing high school kids in china doing the nazi salute and thinking that it was cool:nope:

and India:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8660064.stm

[the_tyrant]

and India:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/8660064.stm

I think its because that in developing nations politically active teens think that their country is treated unfairly by more powerful nations. Therefore, they idolize Hitlar

[AngusJS]

(and yep, I consider anyone in ww2 in a german uniform a nazi, regardless of their actual party membership status)Especially those who were drafted, or who joined the military before 1933, right?

"damn straight, the time to surrender is BEFORE you kill so many of the guys who are obviously gonna win."So I assume that if this were to happen to American soldiers, you'd have no problem with it? Serves em' right, I suppose?

Germans knew exactly what was going on in Germany. Fighting for Germany in WW2 was fighting for Hitler, and everything that meant. they knew this.Exactly, because access to unbiased sources of information is easy and unfettered in totalitarian states, and the price of dissent is minimal. :doh:

So EVERYONE in Germany knew exactly what was going on all the time. ANYONE who wasn't willing to risk his family and friends being arrested after he opposed the regime bears full responsibility.

If the Germans knew everything their government was doing, then I guess the Soviets knew everything their government was doing too, right? So I guess any man to wear the Soviet uniform was culpable for the USSR's crimes, especially the ones who died by the millions to win the war? :nope:

If only everyone had your moral clarity. Life would be so simple. :roll:

[Gerald]

Difficult to find relevant words, which fit in the story, it becomes this way, :down:

[CCIP]

I think its because that in developing nations politically active teens think that their country is treated unfairly by more powerful nations. Therefore, they idolize Hitlar


In fairness, I think they're less Neo-Nazism as such and more just silly cargo cult Nazism that doesn't understand anything.

[the_tyrant]

In fairness, I think they're less Neo-Nazism as such and more just silly cargo cult Nazism that doesn't understand anything.

That is probably true
but you know, rising housing prices, rising crime, people in those places are always looking to expand their "living space"

[frau kaleun]

In fairness, I think they're less Neo-Nazism as such and more just silly cargo cult Nazism that doesn't understand anything.

It's entirely possible they're just looking for Kyle.

I understand he's about *this* tall.

[Castout]

Good riddance.

[DarkFish]

I didn't say modern Germany was culpable in nazi crimes, I said German soldiers were "nazis" as far as I was concerned since they fought to prolong the Reich, and hence everything bad it stood for. Any German who was happy or proud when Poland, France or anywhere else fell is no better—that leaves little of the population left to be "anti-nazi."So let's say you were a German youngster in the late 30s/early 40s. One day, a Wehrmacht officer comes knocking on your door, telling you you're drafted into the army, report at your nearest Wehrmacht base tomorrow.
But instead of obeying the officer, you shout "**** Hitler!" in his face and go into hiding. In a nazi-infested country, reliable and courageous enough people are hard to find, but you're one of the lucky few and find a farmer miles out of town who lets you stay in exchange for some hard field labour. Meanwhile, you are labeled a traitor and your family gets arrested and put on the first train to Auschwitz. But hey, what does it all matter to you since you finally had the chance to defy Hitler:yeah:

[frau kaleun]

Especially those who were drafted, or who joined the military before 1933, right?

So I assume that if this were to happen to American soldiers, you'd have no problem with it? Serves em' right, I suppose?

Exactly, because access to unbiased sources of information is easy and unfettered in totalitarian states, and the price of dissent is minimal. :doh:

So EVERYONE in Germany knew exactly what was going on all the time. ANYONE who wasn't willing to risk his family and friends being arrested after he opposed the regime bears full responsibility.

It sometimes happens that people who've never actually lived through a particular type of experience prefer to believe that, if they did, they would do the "right thing" (usually determined to be "right" by virtue of their own hindsight) without question and without regard to the sacrifices it would entail. Consequently, they tend to judge very harshly anyone who actually did live through that experience and didn't do what they believe they would have had the knowledge, foresight, determination, and courage to have done themselves. Doing that is much easier than admitting that we are all subject to the same human frailties, failings, and limitations.

The reality is that none of us who weren't and aren't there can ever know what we would have done, even if we had been party to all the available information. Would I have had the courage to resist and fight back if it were only my life that was put at risk? Maybe. I would hope so. Would I have been willing to risk the lives of my friends and loved ones as well? I don't know. Nobody does, unless they've done it.

I like to believe that if my life were threatened, or if I saw someone's life being threatened, that I'd immediately take action and do whatever was necessary to defend those that needed defending. It's something I believe is the right thing to do, and it's something that I have been training myself to do for several years now. Do I think I could live with the consequences of doing what seemed necessary? Absolutely. Do I know for sure that I would actually step up and do it? No. The truth is, no matter how hard I train, and no matter how noble my intentions, when push came to shove I might freeze up entirely or misjudge the situation until it was too late to for me to do anyone any good.

You don't get the "A" until you've passed the test, and there are some tests that no one should ever have to take, and some that none of us will ever be required to take. Some people take them, or have the tests forced on them, and - by our standards - fail. But our standards are often based on a virtue we believe we possess even though it has never been tested to the same extreme, if at all. It's far too easy to condemn others for not making the choices we think they should have made when we have never been faced with making them ourselves.

[Skybird]

Tater,

the father of my father and his two brothers were drafted and taken away from their families, they all married young, had already families and children. They had to have these on their minds, too. My grandfather survived Russia, with one eye, one leg and one loung, his two brothers did not return.

The father of my mother was a tanker, France, later Russia. His brother was drafted, too - and later apparently got executed by the SS for insubordination when apparently he was tried to be drafter for the SS anbd their special operations they used to run in occuppied territories once the front had moved on - arresting Jews and all that stuff. My grandfather suvived injured, and traumatised untilt he end of his life. He was in six tanks being shot into flames , losing all crews. He felt guilty for surviving for all the rest of his life. Christzmas trees made him burst in tears, they reminded him of burning villages. Every coup0le of nights he woke up, yelling, crying, disoriented. He never got over what he had seen.

You can claim that most of the SS and SA guys were Nazis, they were selected for these organisations right because of their loyalty (although at the end, when it all already had desintegrated, the SS fighting units also took what they could get in men, and boys). You can also claim that most of the higher officer corps was guilty of misintertpreting the Prussian code of the military as an obedience to blindly follow Hitler - no matter whether they were Nazis, or not. As German soldiers, they might have had to liberate Germany from Hitler, one may argue. I do.

But most Wehrmacht soldiers and low ranks were no Nazis, but just were happen to born in the wrong place and wrong time, now trying to survive a mess they found themselves in. Not everybody is a heroic martyr, even more, in the beginning, for many of these young men invading Poland - mind you, they were 18, 20, 22 years young - it was something like an adventure in the woods, with campfires and stuff they had known from the boyscouts, and lies being fed to them in order to justify the attack on Poland (like Bush has fed your people lies in order to justify his attack on Iraq and hide the economic motives of his lobby groups behind it). They also had been raised in a country that has taught them to obey a cult around Hitler and the Nazis. Seen that way, it is even a miracle that many of them still were no active Nazis.

The later going of the war and the horror they went through and the high losses, helped to cure many of those surviving from any illusions about Hitler and the greatness of war. If you watch "Das Boot" - would you say all the characters panted in that movie were Nazis? At least one was, no doubt, but most of the men were just fighting for their lives, stickinjg to their hopes of a better life, sticking to a grim humour and a grim sense of pride when challenging their English opponents, to make the situation they were in merely bearable.

The German civil population - some knew things, others did not, some did not want to know (and thus had a feeling of things going wrong). There was a prominent group of Hitler-fans, no doubt, it some placers they even were the majority, also no doubt. But you ignore what massive intimidation can make people to do, and to ignore, in realities. Not everybody is a a superhero eager to sacrifice his family. And a strict bureaucratic tyranny helps to alientate people from realities and disconnecting them from crimes they assist to commit. That is no excuse, but an explanation. You cannot excuse facism and totalitarianism. But you can explain why technically and psychologically it functions - and can function very well indeed, even may be attractive to many receptive minds. Collectivism and herd-instincts also have something to do with it.

Most Nazis in Europe of that time, were Germans (and Austrians and Italians [fascists] ). But not every German (Austrian, Italian) was a Nazi.

You generalise quite much and stereotype quite much in your sentencing of the Germans.

Before you think that more Germans should have been educated, well informed and responsible citizens who took it upon them to free the country from Hitler, you may want to watch that old German war moview "The Bridge" (http://www.amazon.com/Bridge-Die-Bruecke-Bernhard-Wicki/dp/B0000646UM/ref=sr_1_2?s=dvd&ie=UTF8&qid=1288860835&sr=1-2) (link). And before you think more people should have had the courage to stand up against a terror regime and accept their own execution in the going of their action, you may want to watch that newer movie "Sophie Scholl - The Final Days (http://www.amazon.com/Sophie-Scholl-Final-Julia-Jentsch/dp/B000H5V8H2/ref=sr_1_1/179-9502114-9542205?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1288860906&sr=1-1)" and make sure that you would have that kind courage of yourself to remain loyal to your ideals in the face of torture and death. If you cannot be certain of that (and who can be certain if he has not lived through such a situation himself?), talk a bit quieter, then.

You are painting with an "extremistically" wide brush, really. It is as if I would say that due to racism and a fetishism around weapons and violence, all Americans are racist klansmen and trigger-happy violence-freaks, or all GIs would love to participate in war crimes like Mai Lai, if given the opportunity. Even when Bush was still there and I fired plenty of criticism at America, I still saw their people much, much more differenciated, knowing that when some Americans followed Bush and general hysteria knocked out the political system and it'S institutions, this still meant that still also many Americans were against it, just did not make themselves heared - and at some point of time also had no real chance to make themselves influential enough to prevent it. I do not compare Bush to Hitler here. I just want to illustrate to differenciate a bit more when talking about living people.

The content of ideologies, is something different, it is what it is. And thre ciontent of Nazi ideology is evil, no doubt.

In the same sense, also the mechanism of a totalitarian system is what it is.

However, the events of the past are the reason why much in context with Neo-Nazism is forbidden not only in Germany, but many European states. The young generation may not be able to understand that, for it has absolutely no link to that era anymore, what makes it prone to romanticisng about and thinking of it in terms that somewhat relativise the scale and the meaning of the crime tha Nazis have brought over Europe.

It'S also the reason why we are extremely irritated, when in the name of unlimited free speech those denying this past and excusing it and wanting to revive the heritage of the Hitler tyranny, including the hate and racism and murder, are given the room and opportunity to unfold again and to become strong again so that their harmful seed can grow again. Thinking this to the end means wishing for another holocaust and another world war - is this what free speech is there for? Is this outcome worth to crucify oneself over claimed unlimited free speech? The seed of NeopNazism grows indeed: the greatest Nazis-organisations, influencing all other Nazi organisations worldwide and helping to finance them, are not in Germany or Europe anymore, but since longer time - reside in America. If that is not an irony of history. And I would say condemning the German Nazis and waging war 70 years ago, but now helping the ideology that is responsible for that disaster back then, to become strong again ands gain influence again, is at least a self-contradiction. Not to mention that it leads to a regime where there is no freedom of speech, but the banning of it: by death penalty.

There is not only freedom of speech. There is also something called self-protection and self-preservation. Both need to be balanced.

[Jimbuna]

In fairness, I think they're less Neo-Nazism as such and more just silly cargo cult Nazism that doesn't understand anything.

Most probably but in those dark savage days of WWII many people were forced to make some stark choices, the potential consequences of each decision being hard for any of us here and especially 'cargo cult' types to truly understand not having lived it.

Let us hope we are never tested in such a way in the future.

[joea]

Excellent post Skybird. :yeah:

Yes I read all of it.

[Gerald]

From my standpoint, I think, what the police did investigate and are within their rights, one that is a pretty big thing to adm.and that takes resources away from more countries and people so it seems to be successful so long, but one an ongoing investigation is being carried

[DarkFish]

Excellent post Skybird. :yeah:I second that.

Yes I read all of it.Yeah, amazing, isn't it:o

[CaptainHaplo]

Tater - it took 18 months for me to get a security clearance - because my grandfather (on my mother's side) was a Nazi Party member. Know what they learned? The same thing that I already knew - he was asked one day if he was a member of the Nazi Party in 1944 - with a gun to his head. He had 2 children and one on the way (my mother), so ask yourself what you would have answered in his place....

To protect his life and his family he had to register as a party member. Not every "nazi" believed in ole Adolph, or racial supremecy, or any of the rest of the bullcrap that came from that regime. Some simply didn't have a choice given the political climate they were in.

[Sailor Steve]

"Perhaps it is a universal truth that the loss of liberty at home is to be charged to provisions against danger, real or pretended, from abroad.
-James Madison

"The whole aim of practical politics is to keep the populace alarmed (and hence clamorous to be led to safety) by menacing it with an endless series of hobgoblins, all of them imaginary."
-H. L. Mencken

"Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. This is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and for exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country."
-Hermann Göring

I've said this in threads about the American Civil War, and I've said it in threads about the Second World War - young men sign up to fight because they believe their country, their way of life and their families are threatened. Very few ever enlist out of a love of killing, or a love of an ideology. The average German soldier, and the average German civilian, was not a Nazi, and likely not even an idealist. They were just people, doing what they thought was best for their country.

I think of the quotes I posted above every time someone uses the words "Patriot Act". We are all susceptible to persuasion from above, because we all want to believe we are right, and we all want our church, our party and our country to be right as well. This blinds us to the possibility that we might be backing the wrong side for the "right" reasons.

Tater, I never suspected you had that much unreasoning hate in you.

"'My country, right or wrong' is something no patriot would think of saying except in a desperate case."
-H. L. Mencken

[Skybird]

I've said this in threads about the American Civil War, and I've said it in threads about the Second World War - young men sign up to fight because they believe their country, their way of life and their families are threatened. Very few ever enlist out of a love of killing, or a love of an ideology. The average German soldier, and the average German civilian, was not a Nazi, and likely not even an idealist. They were just people, doing what they thought was best for their country.

Sometimes you do not have that choice to voluntarily enlist. You get forced to enter the army either by threatening sanctions to yourself, or to your loved ones at home - period.

[Task Force]

Good post last page skybird, As Joea said, I actualy read all of it, instead of skimming over it.:up:

[Gerald]

I agree, a totally different view!

[Skybird]

Thanks for the cheers.

Just because the news is from today, and losely connected to this thread:

First female Rabbi since Holocaust ordained in Germany (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11692934)

[Dimitrius07]

Skybird wrote:
Tater,

the father of my father and his two brothers were drafted and taken away from their families, they all married young, had already families and children. They had to have these on their minds, too. My grandfather survived Russia, with one eye, one leg and one loung, his two brothers did not return.



There is a good phrase: "You brought this to yourself". If you choosing a nationalistic group to run your country, then you must face the consequences, no more and no less. Nationalism means unnecessary pride which result a person to believe that he is better that other just because his a German (in your case) and this turn into violent act which leads to war. And war leads to death and suffer. So don`t ask for my pity, please:03:. Enjoy the snow :rock:...ops here goes the unlucky slave trader :dead:

[the_tyrant]

There is a good phrase: "You brought this to yourself". If you choosing a nationalistic group to run your country, then you must face the consequences, no more and no less. Nationalism means unnecessary pride which result a person to believe that he is better that other just because his a German (in your case) and this turn into violent act which leads to war. And war leads to death and suffer. So don`t ask for my pity, please:03:. Enjoy the snow :rock:...ops here goes the unlucky slave trader :dead:

and here goes another super long flame war

[Dimitrius07]

and here goes another super long flame war

You think that way because you don`t know how to read or don`t want to. I don`t start flame war, i am only give my feedback + a little jokes here and there. When a message contain insults or stupidity (not peaking on individuals here) i reply accordingly. You don`t have to like it :yep:.

[tater]

Civilians in the US knew about the death camps, and pressured FDR to bomb them. If any US civilians knew, then virtually all german civilians had to know.

Since any germans that lived through the war had a vested interest in saying they did not know about atrocities after the war, their answers must be assumed to be self-serving unless proved otherwise. I've heard interviews with those that say that they did know, so what was special about those civilians? Nothing. They knew cause everyone knew. I used to have lunch sometimes with a retired history prof who was in the WM on the Eastern Front (a junior officer, he was a russian language student and was used for that skill), he told me everyone knew what was going on, but that it was a different time, and that was the way everyone thought.

My point was that I didn't care if they were officially members or not. It doesn't matter, actions speak louder than words or signatures on party cards. If you fought to prolong the Reich, you were culpable in prolonging the Reich, period.

My observation about being pleased at the summary execution in SPR won't change. These are guys who are fighting for continued genocide. That IS what they are fighting for, just like the Confederates in the US Civil War were fighting so human beings could be property. Were they all thinking about that when they fought? No, of course not. Doesn't matter, that IS what they fought for, like it or not—heck, even if they didn't know that was what they fought for, it was what they fought for.

Faced with the D-Day invasion force, they had zero chance of winning the day. Zero. Surrender would have been entirely honorable in the face of that force without firing a shot. Instead, they killed countless boys (from damn far away) who were there to STOP genocide. Were they thinking about THAT? Nope, but that is none the less what they were fighting for. At that point, I have virtually no sympathy for the defenders. I agree with Patton when he told his junior officers not to accept German surrenders inside 200 yards—the time for the bad guys to surrender is before they needlessly kill our guys (needless since they're going to be surrendering anyway—all that German killing was just "because").

When you look at something on topic for SS, u-boats, then it's clearer. Any that didn't support the war could simply have defected. They would be assumed lost (since most boats WERE lost). Every single death they caused once the US was in was needless (and before that, malicious, assuming they thought they could win). IN fact, their fighting prolonged the war, and hence caused even more deaths (Allied, Axis, and civilian).

Bottom line is that without the consent of the populace, the Nazis would have been overthrown. The Soviets killed more than they did, and THEY were overthrown, after all.

[Platapus]

You have an interesting interpretation of history. Thanks for sharing it.

[Dowly]

"Interesting" indeed. :doh:

[DarkFish]

These are guys who are fighting for continued genocide. That IS what they are fighting for, just like the Confederates in the US Civil War were fighting so human beings could be property. Were they all thinking about that when they fought? No, of course not. Doesn't matter, that IS what they fought for, like it or not—heck, even if they didn't know that was what they fought for, it was what they fought for.It's not what they fought for. They all had very different reasons to fight. To continue with your civil war analogy, some soldiers may indeed have fought to keep slavery. Others fought to defend their "fatherland" against the north. Others fought to defend their families and beloved ones. Others may have fought simply for the money or the thrill. And many others fought simply because they were conscripted.

You say that fighting for a country would automatically mean fighting for its government. That would be the same as saying that all patriots in the US army are fighting for Obama.
You're saying that German soldiers should have defected/surrendered if they were against the Nazis. That would be the same as saying all US soldiers who are against Obama should defect/surrender.

[kiwi_2005]

couple of movies you should watch Tater,

Schlinders list -
who saved Jews from the death camps, although some say he was just saving himself as he believed germany was going to lose the war but why would he risk his life saving Jews if that was the reason.

The Pianist -
about a Jew on the run from the nazis where he got help from the germans and other nationalities plus its a great movie too. Watched it for the 2nd time the other night

And anther one but I can't remember the name of it came out about a year ago and wasn't all that popular. Its about a German nurse who helped smuggle Jewish baby's out of Germany.

Yeah I know they're are just movies but based on true stories.

[Platapus]

And many others fought simply because they were conscripted.


People fight because they are told to fight and back then (and perhaps today) there is a respect for Nationalism.

If your country calls for your service, you provide it.

It is tough to explain.

[Dowly]

The Pianist -
about a Jew on the run from the nazis where he got help from the germans and other nationalities plus its a great movie too. Watched it for the 2nd time the other night

Saw this last week or so, never liked Brody, but he did a great performance as the pianist. :yeah:

[DarkFish]

Schlinders list -
who saved Jews from the death camps, although some say he was just saving himself as he believed germany was going to lose the war but why would he risk his life saving Jews if that was the reason.And Schindler was a Nazi as well.

[Dimitrius07]

If your country calls for your service, you provide it.

It is tough to explain.

Right! And when someone calls for extermination of others you don`t think, you agree. Very easy way of living by letting someone else think for you, and thats one of main goals of nationalism.

[Platapus]

Right! And when someone calls for extermination of others you don`t think, you agree. Very easy way of living by letting someone else think for you, and thats one of main goals of nationalism.

I hope never to be put in that position. Fortunately, our genocide period was over long before I was born. But that would be a difficult decision. I hope I would be able to make the "right" decision.

[DarkFish]

Right! And when someone calls for extermination of others you don`t think, you agree. Very easy way of living by letting someone else think for you, and thats one of main goals of nationalism.They didn't call for extermination, they called to fight for the fatherland. You really think that the German military was all about killing Jews? It was mainly about defending your fatherland. Defending your families. Defending your very own life.

[Jimbuna]

Saw this last week or so, never liked Brody, but he did a great performance as the pianist. :yeah:

I'm suprised....the film is a few years old now :hmmm:

[Skybird]

There is a good phrase: "You brought this to yourself". If you choosing a nationalistic group to run your country, then you must face the consequences, no more and no less. Nationalism means unnecessary pride which result a person to believe that he is better that other just because his a German (in your case) and this turn into violent act which leads to war. And war leads to death and suffer. So don`t ask for my pity, please. Enjoy the snow ...ops here goes the unlucky slave trader

Your pity was not asked for, nor did I try to excuse "Mitläufer" and free them of their share of guilt - I have accused silent Mitläufer of their share of guilt myself often enough, in context both with the Nazigerman and the Muhammeddan communities. But my grandfathers both were neither Nazis, nor did they feel explicitly nationalistic - not back then, and not in the decades later. Neither had them voted for the Nazis to come to power, nor did they bring or wish to bring more nationalism to Germany than Western nations in general ticked nationalistic back in that era. And still they turned out to be victims of circumstances that - different to your claim - they, like many others, had not opted for to bring to themselves or to Germany.

This is not to excuse Naszis, or "Mitläufer", I have attacked Mitläufer myself often enough for their share of guilt in making given cirucmstances lasting on, in debates with contexts of both Nazi-Germany and Muhammeddan societies. I just want to correct this stupid polarising and stereotyping of "all Germans were Nazis". That is an extremely simplifying claim. Many Germans were turned into victims of the tryanny, too - by ideological abuse and indoctrination of the young generation, and the suffering and killing of the civilians in the cities who got killed later in the war, and many families loosing the mere basis of their existence, too. There were Nazis. There were Mitläufer. And there were innocents. The first two got dleivered what they asked for, and what they maybe deserved. The latter - were victims, like the many victims of Nazi war and Nazi terror throughout Europe.


Civilians in the US knew about the death camps, and pressured FDR to bomb them.

The existence of mass prisons, socalled concentration camps, were most likely known to the British authorities since sometime in the second half of 41. Whatz happened inside these camps - was not known.

For the Americans, the "date of knowledge"most often noted in historians' debate, seems to be somewhere in 42. Still in summer 1939, the Americans and Canadians turned back a ship with around 1000 Jews fleeing from Europe and seeking refuge in North America, the shipü finally had to return to Europe. It must be assumed that mkost of the poeple aboard then got killed. Roosevelt himself ordered this turning back. I doubt he would have done that if he had known what this would mean for the people aboard.

During the war, there were the usual set of reports, and thus: "knowledge" of local mass executiuons committed by the Germans in occupied territories, also reports about mass deportations. Occasional news tend to pop up in Amerian papers since later 41 on.

But: the inustrialised mass gassing of Jews inside the camps and the full sacale of the horror was completely unkinown until the end of the war. There is a story of the British government having turned down evidence given by a Jew who had escaped from a camp, presenting photographic evidence. But the story continues that the evidence had no consequence because it told such a horrifying story that one simply refused to believe it. (Also, the British at that time were quite a bit antisemitic themselves, and reflected that in their policy-making, too.) It is a story soemtimes brought up in discussions. However, the historic truth of it is not confirmed beyond doubt.

So, the real horror of the camps and the full extent of the systematic genocide was revealed not before the Allied troops reached them and liberated them at the end of the war. The shock then was the greater.


If any US civilians knew, then virtually all german civilians had to know.

First,m as just explained, the US civilians did not know what the camps were about. Second, the Nazi regime did it'S best to hide the presence of KZs from the German public, or better: they hid what happened inside of them. For good reason, even the Nazis must have feared a revolt if the German public would have gotten full information of the barbary that took place. The "Lager" were rumoured about, it was a threat lurking in the background of every conversation people held with somebody - a bit liked imperttinent children get disciplined by story about the balck man catching them if they do not obey, only that the Lager, the GeStapo, the robust interrogation were known to be a bit more realistic than the dark child-catcher.

What must be assumed is that villagers living in villages close to concentration camps, sooner or later got rumours and knowledge about whjat happend in the camps close by. That may be the reasons why the camps were tried to be hidden in relatively distant, isolated places.

Your assumption that "all Germans had to know", is most unlikely, therefore. Your reason for that assumption (because all Americans knew from early on) is basing on false grounds: Americans did not know what happened before the end of the war.

People need to remind one thing: Germans, no matter their disgust or loyalty to the regime, lived in a tyranny, a brutal dictaorship, that had brought police control methods and spying on its people to heights that before were unknown in history. FEAR is a decisive variable in determining a human's actions and decisions. And the simple truth is that most of the time, most people tend to hunker down, seek cover and hope to survive it all somehow. And that is true for ALL people, not just Germans. Beside, there are so many untold stories of German heroes whose names will never be known, who risked their lives by hiding Jews under their roof for months, who brought doom and horror over their familieds when helping refugees to make it over the border. History books and movies only remember the famous names, like Scholl and Stauffenberg. But there were so many thousands of grey, ordinary people who fought their own secret battle of resistence against the regime that way.


Since any germans that lived through the war had a vested interest in saying they did not know about atrocities after the war, their answers must be assumed to be self-serving unless proved otherwise. I've heard interviews with those that say that they did know, so what was special about those civilians? Nothing. They knew cause everyone knew. I used to have lunch sometimes with a retired history prof who was in the WM on the Eastern Front (a junior officer, he was a russian language student and was used for that skill), he told me everyone knew what was going on, but that it was a different time, and that was the way everyone thought.

Comparable things told my grandfathers - but they said that rumours ab oiut the crimes comitted by the SS, for example, started to widely circulate not before the last third of the war. In the beginning, there was a woprking propaganda that was very successful in selling the German attack on Poland as an act of self-defence in a war started by the Poles. Minds and thoughts started to change when the Russian war shifted against the Germans, and losses climbed.


My point was that I didn't care if they were officially members or not. It doesn't matter, actions speak louder than words or signatures on party cards. If you fought to prolong the Reich, you were culpable in prolonging the Reich, period.
By effect, that is correct, and it is also true for the simple "Mitläufer", which I remind of their share of guilt becasue their silence and tolerance also helps to prolongue the current state. But that does not mean that every German soldier was a Nazi in thinking and conviction. I claim that most were not. As was said, it was an other time, asnd there were different sentiments amonst people from all nations aboout things like "nation" and"duty", standards which have massovely lost in meaning for many modenr people - who then find it hard to accept that they once were important for people in a past era. Also, what do you expect when a man is given the choice of either fighting in the army, or being deported or executrd, with threats being turned against his family? That all of them turn into altruistic superheroes yearning for martyrdom? True, the regime would not have lasted if ALL people all of a sudden turned against it. But how oftehn does histgory give you an example of people doing like this in the face of a most brutal regime in full power? Americans do not understand it,m because the short history of theirs does not know an era where their forefathers lived under a txyranny, I mean a real tyranny like Stalin or Hitler or Ceaucesco who ruiled with irdon fist and physical violence. Most people are intimidated sufficikently by the prospect of physical force and toprture and dissappearance in secret prisons. That's why such regimes can successfully install themselves by the means they choose. Not having the heroic martyrdom-gene may be a human weakness, but this weakness is a fact in human history. The behavior of crowdfs and masses, and tghe behaviour or an indiovidual making a choice - it cannot really be compared. Masses and the cukltural climate they form by their mere existence, create a cultural atmosphere feeding back on people that initially most people cannot escape. That's what makes such a "cult" lasting. Not before counter-effects and pressures from outside make themselves feelable to a sufficient degree (a "critical mass"), the situation becomes unstable and the status quo is put in danger and may collapse. IMO it compares very much to Newton's Laws and Angular Momentum - where there is no energy passed on to another object, or no foreign object projects an energetic effect on a given object, that object's momentum does not change by itself, then. :-)


My observation about being pleased at the summary execution in SPR won't change. These are guys who are fighting for continued genocide. That IS what they are fighting for, just like the Confederates in the US Civil War were fighting so human beings could be property. Were they all thinking about that when they fought? No, of course not. Doesn't matter, that IS what they fought for, like it or not—heck, even if they didn't know that was what they fought for, it was what they fought for.

Only antisemites and people hating gypsies and Bolshewists cpould have made a decision to fight for the ourpose of committing genocide against them. Those who fought becaseu they were taken away from the civil life by the regime'S law and foudn themselves as a number in the great machinery of the Whrmacht - just fought, and hardly for the purpose of bringin g extinction to theJews/gypsies/Bolshevists/etc.). They fought to surive, and because tghey were in the army and it was war. The overwhelming majoreity of German Wehrmac ht-soldiers - had no choice, facing the firing squad if refusing to do so.

Now, Nazis by conviction, and SS, as well as higher ranks disliking the Nazis (a wide-spread attitude in the Wehrmacht, btw) but keeping loyal to Hitler due to their totally misled and disconnected sense and code of "obedience" - these are something totally different.

Faced with the D-Day invasion force, they had zero chance of winning the day. Zero. Surrender would have been entirely honorable in the face of that force without firing a shot.

Like they did in the Alamo?


Instead, they killed countless boys (from damn far away) who were there to STOP genocide. Were they thinking about THAT?

Yes, I'm sure the Allies' boys as well as the German defenders had such philosophic monologues on their minds and really reflected over the other guy's mindset that way. When the bombs start falling and the bullets start whizzing past your head, men easily get into the mood to meditate about the rights and evils of life and how to convince the other of one'S own motives.

The trap you fall into is - you see it from today's perspective, with the full knowledge about continent-wide events that we have about history. But you must ty to put yourself into the situation back then, into the mind of the single man at location, with the ammount of knowledge that was available to him. You must use the scales and standards of that time in order to assess that time.

Nope, but that is none the less what they were fighting for. At that point, I have virtually no sympathy for the defenders. I agree with Patton when he told his junior officers not to accept German surrenders inside 200 yards—the time for the bad guys to surrender is before they needlessly kill our guys (needless since they're going to be surrendering anyway—all that German killing was just "because").

They did what soldiers do in war: they fought, and by the standards of war, they did it extremely effective. That was their job, like it was the job of the invasion troops to storm the beach. Was it horrific? Yes. The whole war was. Every war deserving the name, is like that. And both side'S soldiers - correctly - thought they were fighting for their lives, against an enemy that their own side has demonised since months and years (like in every war). The single soldier in the trench and bunker did not have on his mind to defend the concentration camp in Dachau and to enable Berlin to commit more genocide. You doom the Germans for defending their position.

You use present day knowledge to judge them in their situation of k,limited knowledge, and lacking opportunity to relfect on it while being in battle. Well, the allied commanders intntionally detemrined that the first wave should be recruited not from veterans, but novices, who had no knowledge of the horror of battle lying ahead of them. For two treasons, they expected such naive boys to storm the bech with greater entusiams, not being hindered by caution and fear, and since the commander'S knw the losses of tghre first wave would bne dramatic, they wanted the newpocmers to be lost - not the veterans and their precious already collected experience. What moral judgement do you have to give for this? Militarily, it makes perfect sense, like the way the Germans tried to defend the beaches and inflict maximum casualties made sense too: for denying the Allies to get a foothold on the continent.

Context, Tater. You disconnect yourself from it, and too often.

Some people tend to simplify complex realities in an effort to reduce them to a simple dualistic scheme that knows only black and white, 0 and 1, right or wrong, and even: American and Bad. For my own use I call it the binary trap. The truth is that the situation bac k then as well as realities today have so many simultaneous levels overlapping and coexisting at the same time, that such reductionistic approaches are doomed to fail from begining on. Compared to the awarenss and the mind of the individual man, a whiole ideology itself is mostly if not always a relatively simply thing indeed, and Nazi ideology beyond doubt is simply evil and inhmane. There are other ideologies like that as well. Ideologies are always crutches to describe and tame complex realities in a mostly inappropriate way. When they argue with appeals to lower sentiments, then they are not only primitive, but even become really evil. To me, there are only primitive, not-so-much evil ideologies, and primitive very much evil ideologies. But primitive crutches ideologies are, always. Reality always remains to be so very much more complex. The more this is ignored, the more distorted one becomes when depending on ideologic standards.

[Gerald]

And Schindler was a Nazi as well. :cool:

[Skybird]

Schindler was an opportunist. The opportunity to seize lucrative business contracts made him entering the party. He also was a bon vivant, and he combined both when becoming a party animal on parties of Nazi figures.

However, this does not mean he complied with the Nazi ideology. His witnessing of the cruelty by which Jews were treated by German occupators led him to his resistence against the regime, by getting his factory rated as a factor vital for the war, thus falling under jurisdiction giving him privileged rights how to handle it. this he used to bring Jewish slave workers into safety by demanding them to be recognised by the authorities as urgently needed workers in his factory. He took many personal risks and gambles to safe and protect "his" Jews and save them from deporation and execution. There shall n ot be any doubt that he did not act by the motive of exploiting them in his factory. When he had decided to try to rescue Jews, the former economic opportunism of his did not play a role in his motivation anymore. He also invested and totally consumated all his former wealth for supplying "his" Jews with food and the items needed for life.

If in Israel people would think of Schindler as having been a "Nazi" indeed, they would not have honoured him and build him a monument and invited him to live in Israel when after the war he economically failed and was poor, which in his last years he did for half of every year.

He carried a party badge. But was he really a Nazi by conviction? I say no. What he was guilty of, before he "switched sides", was opportunism for economic profit. That is not an attribute winning him sypathy, for sure. But what counts is that he made up his mind and then made a decisive correction in his actions and behavior, at high risk to his personal life - he was arrested and interrogated by the Gestapo several times, because they were very suspicious about his factory.

I don't know if he was a great man. But he was a courageous man who in the end did the right things and made the right decisions even in the face of danger, no matter his beginning as an opportunistic businessman, (and before that workijng for German intelligence). And that is what counts.

[MH]

They didn't call for extermination, they called to fight for the fatherland. You really think that the German military was all about killing Jews? It was mainly about defending your fatherland. Defending your families. Defending your very own life.

vWhat about open discrimination of Jews before the war.
Taking all their rights as German citizens?
Beating them on the streets taking over businesses that was up to moral standard of average German as it seems.
It was done in open for all to see.
There is a thin line between the above and mass murder.
Since Germans at the time had no serious problem with that Hitler could be quite confident to move into mass extermination.
Sure its difficult to judge people who lived in those times but just the German discipline and maybe culture of blind obedience has something to do with it?
It was very easy to turn militaristic society into Nazi.

[Dimitrius07]

They didn't call for extermination, they called to fight for the fatherland. You really think that the German military was all about killing Jews? It was mainly about defending your fatherland. Defending your families. Defending your very own life.

So this is how it happen... oh my:damn:. So you trying to tell me that Nazi Germany was defended itself. So Poland atacked Germany, not the other way around. And the poor Germans march in the streets of Berlin and shout "We are innocent....zig fail".
Welcome to "Alice in Wonderworld".:rock:

[Méo]

War was only part of their policy which means it could not be defined as good or bad, it was all about decisions and consequences.

[Platapus]

So this is how it happen... oh my:damn:. So you trying to tell me that Nazi Germany was defended itself.

Perhaps they were defending their country against the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles?

I am not opining on whether one side is "right" or "wrong" at this time.

But I hardly think the German government just decided one day "hey, nutton else on TV, let's invade Europe for the hell of it" :nope:

There are always reasons for war. Look at the US, we always fight defensive or retaliatory wars... depending on the word defensive and retaliatory.

No one just "starts" a way without having some reason... even if they have to manufacture it. :know:

[DarkFish]

He carried a party badge. But was he really a Nazi by conviction? I say no. What he was guilty of, before he "switched sides", was opportunism for economic profit. That is not an attribute winning him sypathy, for sure. But what counts is that he made up his mind and then made a decisive correction in his actions and behavior, at high risk to his personal life - he was arrested and interrogated by the Gestapo several times, because they were very suspicious about his factory.Which is exactly my point. Schindler saved hundreds of Jews. Yet he was a Party Member, and with Tater's and Dimitrius' limited mindset this makes him a bad person.

vWhat about open discrimination of Jews before the war.
Taking all their rights as German citizens?
Beating them on the streets taking over businesses that was up to moral standard of average German as it seems.
It was done in open for all to see.
There is a thin line between the above and mass murder.
Since Germans at the time had no serious problem with that Hitler could be quite confident to move into mass extermination.
Sure its difficult to judge people who lived in those times but just the German discipline and maybe culture of blind obedience has something to do with it?
It was very easy to turn militaristic society into Nazi.What did you expect them to do? Turn against the Nazis and get shot themselves?
Also, theres a *huge* difference between harassing people and killing them. According to your definition, every bully is only a thin line away from being a murderer.
And yes, there were lots of people that had antisemetic feelings at the time. But this doesn't make them all Nazis. There are lots of Palestinians that hate your Israel, yet there are loads of them that aren't Hamas members.

So this is how it happen... oh my:damn:. So you trying to tell me that Nazi Germany was defended itself. So Poland atacked Germany, not the other way around. And the poor Germans march in the streets of Berlin and shout "We are innocent....zig fail".
Welcome to "Alice in Wonderworld".:rock:So you're telling me that later in the war the USSR didn't invade Germany? Allied forces didn't invade Italy? D-Day never took place?
Later in the war Allied planes bombed the hell out of German cities. So it was most certainly defending yes.
And even when on the attack, you can still fight for your fatherland.

[Sailor Steve]

So this is how it happen... oh my:damn:. So you trying to tell me that Nazi Germany was defended itself. So Poland atacked Germany, not the other way around. And the poor Germans march in the streets of Berlin and shout "We are innocent....zig fail".
Welcome to "Alice in Wonderworld".:rock:
No, that's not what he was saying at all. He, like I, was saying that the average German believed he was defending his country. The were indeed told that Poland attacked Germany, and they believed it.

[Dimitrius07]

Perhaps they were defending their country against the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles?

I am not opining on whether one side is "right" or "wrong" at this time.

But I hardly think the German government just decided one day "hey, nutton else on TV, let's invade Europe for the hell of it" :nope:

There are always reasons for war. Look at the US, we always fight defensive or retaliatory wars... depending on the word defensive and retaliatory.

No one just "starts" a way without having some reason... even if they have to manufacture it. :know:

By how? Build weapon of mass destruction, and repeat the same thing which cause treaty of Versailles to take place. Maybe it was a excuse after all :know:. War for Nazi Germany was all about land space, so claiming that it was a self defence its quite pathetic. You can check the historycal data regarding the subject and see for your self.

[MH]

Perhaps they were defending their country against the conditions of the Treaty of Versailles?

I am not opining on whether one side is "right" or "wrong" at this time.

But I hardly think the German government just decided one day "hey, nutton else on TV, let's invade Europe for the hell of it" :nope:

There are always reasons for war. Look at the US, we always fight defensive or retaliatory wars... depending on the word defensive and retaliatory.

No one just "starts" a way without having some reason... even if they have to manufacture it. :know:

You are 100% right but the thing/problem is that he turned a war that may had some justification into war for living space of master race.
Hitler was backed up with mass hysteria love until wehrmacht got its ass kicked on eastern front or until his generals realised that the guy lost grip with reality and pushed too hard.
He had no serius oposition till things/dream of master race started go wrong and it was time to prepere to face consequences.

[Méo]

War for Nazi Germany was all about land space

So that was their policy. ;)

[Dimitrius07]

So now you admire yourself? So much for a debate :88).

[DarkFish]

War for Nazi Germany was all about land spaceGlad you say it yourself.
The war had nothing to do with the Jews. Nothing at all. Now we've finally reached this point, can I stop trying to tell you the obvious?

[MH]

Glad you say it yourself.
The war had nothing to do with the Jews. Nothing at all. Now we've finally reached this point, can I stop trying to tell you the obvious?

No it was about bacon.

[Penguin]

I think it's fair to say that the Germans had a hunch what was going on in the Reich. Hitler's goals were available for anyone to read. What happened after 1933, where the rights of many people got infringed, to use a nice expression, was visible. People knew that they can be taken away for speaking out their opinion, they had neighbours disappearing, saw destroyed shops and street violence.
Here comes the human factor into play:
- people only want to see what they like to see. Maybe only subconscious, there is the factor of denial. "What is not supposed to happen, doesn't happen!"
- the survival instinct is one of the strongest instincs of us. People do astonishing acts of bravery and also of cowardice due to it.
- what MH pointed out: it was a time and society where authority was not questioned, neither in school, family or in the military
- indoctrination & propaganda: maybe the weakest factor, as no propaganda survices the first check with reality (or a battlefield).

Of course was not every soldier a Nazi. What DarkFish has said, as confusing as it sounds today. Though Germany started an attack war, many soldiers thought they were defending their country and that they were fighting for a just cause. Since 1934 every soldier did an oath on Hitler, not on the constitution. Every German soldier was a legitimate target to fight against national socialism though.

To make my point clear and to show the shades of grey between black & white, I'll share the story of a great man who was in the war and I had the honour to know after lunch.

[Dimitrius07]

Glad you say it yourself.
The war had nothing to do with the Jews. Nothing at all. Now we've finally reached this point, can I stop trying to tell you the obvious?

And what is your POINT? What are you trying to say by "nothing to do" and "Nothing at all".

[Méo]

Glad you say it yourself.
can I stop trying to tell you the obvious?

He has just shown the obvious! :haha:

[Platapus]

You are 100% right but the thing/problem is that he turned a war that may had some justification into war for living space of master race.
Hitler was backed up with mass hysteria love until wehrmacht got its ass kicked on eastern front or until his generals realised that the guy lost grip with reality and pushed too hard.
He had no serius oposition till things/dream of master race started go wrong and it was time to prepere to face consequences.

I wonder what would have happened if Hitler had stopped with CZ?

Maybe, strategically, Chamberlin was right? Hitler got over confident and pushed too far and ended up fighting a war he really did not want to.

[Dimitrius07]

Are you going to answer my question or not? :D

[Tribesman]

Hitler was backed up with mass hysteria love until wehrmacht got its ass kicked on eastern front or until his generals realised that the guy lost grip with reality and pushed too hard.

Is that why he didn't have to ban any political opposition from the outset, set up a police state and put opponents into concentration camps years before the war started then?
I suppose it explains the complete lack of the many planned assasination attempts like those which certainly didn't have members of the german military aiming to kill Hitler in 1938 when Germany was still many years away from getting its butt kicked by the Russians on the Eastern front.

[Dimitrius07]

When you done talking to yourself give me a shout ;). I am going to listen to a song called "Fuhrer face" :woot::arrgh!:

[Tribesman]

I am going to listen to a song called "Fuhrer face"
Is that a popular song with flag waving nationalists?
How is the quest for living space coming along?

[MH]

Is that why he didn't have to ban any political opposition from the outset, set up a police state and put opponents into concentration camps years before the war started then?
I suppose it explains the complete lack of the many planned assasination attempts like those which certainly didn't have members of the german military aiming to kill Hitler in 1938 when Germany was still many years away from getting its butt kicked by the Russians on the Eastern front.




So you say that Hitler wasnt surrounded by mass hysteria love from Germans he did not march into Austria as a great leader of German race?

He had opposition but he also had won most of average Germans.to his side which was his first priority before making any moves.
He knew that by tyrany alone he could not realise his plans for europe.
I never said that all Germans where Nazis but trying to paint that generation as a poor bastrds under iron foot is totally wrong.
Maybe a German did not like seeinig a Jew getting kick around but when he got his flat handed over well...why not-hard times and human nature,.Hail Hitler it is.

[tater]

Though Germany started an attack war, many soldiers thought they were defending their country and were fighting for a just cause.

They were not fighting for a just cause. The Confederates might have thought they were fighting for a just cause, but they were wrong. They were fighting for the right to own human beings. The Germans—all of them—were fighting for the right to murder people based on surname. They may have deluded themselves otherwise, but that's what it boiled down to.

This fact is the true horror of Nazi Germany. If millions were fooled by a few it is a lot less scary that millions of people who were otherwise decent people enabling (or actively participating in) genocide. The pattern appears in other genocide/democide as well. Regular people doing horrible things.

Failure to recognize this is a real problem if the goal is to not let genocide happen going forward. Placing the blame on a tiny handful and ignoring the culpability of the masses of active and passive enablers is dangerous.

Personal accounts by anyone who has an interest in not looking like an accomplice to genocide (which is virtually everyone) are suspect, and must be filtered under the assumption they will try and minimize their culpability.

Note that I similarly impugn my own country WRT slavery, which was also horrific.

[Dimitrius07]

So you're telling me that later in the war the USSR didn't invade Germany? Allied forces didn't invade Italy? D-Day never took place?
Later in the war Allied planes bombed the hell out of German cities. So it was most certainly defending yes.
And even when on the attack, you can still fight for your fatherland.


Again Darkfish, you lacking some history knowledge. USSR was attacked by Germans in 1941, not the other way around, German launch the first attack on England and Germans bomb the hell out of Poland. What exactly did you expect? That everyone will accept fuhrer idiology and raise a white flag. According to some its probably a gooottttttt idea. Suit very well for cowards.:yeah:

[tater]

The CCCP was a co-beligerant with Germany in Poland. Dunno why they get a pass for that. Had germany not invaded, they would have happily been part of the problem as they were in 1939. The UK and France were most in the right in 1939, period (including the isolationist, neutral US). They put it all on the line for another country attacked by TWO great powers. Oddly, they didn't also declare vs the Soviets who were just as guilty, IMHO.

The decision cost France quite a lot (people forget how very many French were lost in the BoF, even though they folder quickly).

[HunterICX]

^Let's not forget the Invasion of Finland by the CCCP.

HunterICX

[DarkFish]

Are you going to answer my question or not? :DYou're talking to me? I thought your question wasn't too hard to answer yourself:
And what is your POINT? What are you trying to say by "nothing to do" and "Nothing at all".but if you don't get it, let me help you.
Hitler didn't start a war to exterminate Jews. He could have done that without a war. Hitler started the war for a number of reasons, "Lebensraum" being one of them, Jews being none of them.

[Penguin]

Originally Posted by Penguin http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1529850#post1529850)
Though Germany started an attack war, many soldiers thought they were defending their country and were fighting for a just cause.

They were not fighting for a just cause.

The word "thought" refers also to the last part of the sentence. I meant: thought they were fighting. I will change my original post to avoid room for misinterpretations. Can't really write more atm, gotta eat and then leave, will reply tomorrow to the rest.

[DarkFish]

Again Darkfish, you lacking some history knowledge. USSR was attacked by Germans in 1941, not the other way around, German launch the first attack on England and Germans bomb the hell out of Poland. What exactly did you expect? That everyone will accept fuhrer idiology and raise a white flag. According to some its probably a gooottttttt idea. Suit very well for cowards.:yeah:Ehm it's you lacking historical knowledge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_berlin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin_%28air%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Allied_invasion_of_Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

Sure, the Germans were the aggressors. But that doesn't mean they didn't get attacked in the end.

[MH]

Ehm it's you lacking historical knowledge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_berlin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin_%28air%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Allied_invasion_of_Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

Sure, the Germans were the aggressors. But that doesn't mean they didn't get attacked in the end.


Common you gotta be kiddin me.....

[tater]

The word "thought" refers also to the last part of the sentence. I meant: thought they were fighting. I will change my original post to avoid room for misinterpretations. Can't really write more atm, gotta eat and then leave, will reply tomorrow to the rest.

I understood it fine. That's why I said the US Confederates might have thought they were fighting for a good reason, but they were in fact wrong, they were fighting for a crappy reason.

Being deluded isn't an excuse, otherwise. Confederates fought to preserve the right to own other human beings, Germans in WW2 fought to preserve the right to murder other human beings. Both are true regardless of what they might have "thought" they were fighting for.

[Dimitrius07]

Ehm it's you lacking historical knowledge:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_berlin
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin_%28air%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Allied_invasion_of_Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II

Sure, the Germans were the aggressors. But that doesn't mean they didn't get attacked in the end.

And why they were attacked you think? Maybe because Germany start this war as i mentioned before. The other reason is because Germany refuse to surrender even after they knew that all is lost, you also can find information about it. So i don`t see any point of you showing historycal operations which happend mostly on the late stages of war.

[Gerald]

which was previously included in "this thread"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ueWVV_GnRIA

[Dimitrius07]

You're talking to me? I thought your question wasn't too hard to answer yourself:
but if you don't get it, let me help you.
Hitler didn't start a war to exterminate Jews. He could have done that without a war. Hitler started the war for a number of reasons, "Lebensraum" being one of them, Jews being none of them.

So you jump from "Nazi Germany is not so bad" to my nationality again. I am not sure you following me, but whatever.
Also how this is posible:

Hitler didn't start a war to exterminate Jews. He could have done that without a war.

I rest my case on this one :damn:.

[Skybird]

In Wikipedia's entry on Denazification, I found an interesting passage that may highlight why simplifying things the way Dimitrius and Tater are doing it, most likely is no adequate description of the true realities back then.
Even those believing in Nazism, most likely did so for a variety of motives and believes, motivated by different understandings of what it was and what was done in the name of it. That'S why I differenciate - like I also do in case of Islam - between the real content of the fixed-on-paper ideology, and the huge variety of different understandings of what the term means, sometimes in conformity, sometimes in violation, sometimes in reduction or misunderstanding of the conception that is behind the term identifying the ideology.

Again, all this is not in excuse of true Nazis and war criminals, of course. Again, Nazism is an evil, inhumane ideology, and the more a person fully submits to it in full knowledge and awareness of it's facts, the more guilty this person becomes.


Surveys





The U.S. conducted opinion surveys in occupied Germany. Tony Judt in his book Postwar : a History of Europe since 1945 extracted and used some of them.[34] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-33)

A majority in the years 1945-49 stated National Socialism to have been a good idea, badly applied.
In 1946, 6% of Germans said the Nuremberg trials (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Nuremberg_trials) had been unfair.
In 1946, 37% in the U.S. occupation zone said about the Holocaust that "the extermination of the Jews and Poles and other non-Aryans was necessary for the security of Germans."
In 1946, 1 in 3 in the U.S. occupation zone said that Jews should not have the same rights as those belonging to the Aryan race.
In 1950, 1 in 3 said the Nuremberg trials had been unfair.
In 1952, 37% said Germany was better off without the Jews.
In 1952, 25% had a good opinion of Hitler.
However, in Hitler, Germans, and the 'Jewish Question,' Sarah Ann Gordon notes the difficulty of drawing conclusions from the surveys. For example, respondents were given three alternatives from which to choose, as in question 1:
StatementPercentage agreeingHitler was right in his treatment of the Jews:0%Hitler went too far in his treatment of the Jews, but something had to be done to keep them in bounds:19%The actions against the Jews were in no way justified:77%
To the question of whether an Aryan who marries a Jew should be condemned, 91% responded "No". To the question of whether "All those who ordered the murder of civilians or participated in the murdering should be made to stand trial," 94% responded "Yes".[35] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon2-34) Gordon singles out the question "Extermination of the Jews and Poles and other non-Aryans was not necessary for the security of the Germans", which included an implicit double negative to which the response was either yes or no. She concludes that this question was confusingly phrased:
Some interviewees may have responded "no" they did not agree with the statement, when they actually did agree that the extermination was not necessary.[36] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon-35)
She further highlights the discrepancy between the antisemitic implications of the survey results (such as those later identified by Judt) with the 77% percent of interviewees who responded that actions against Jews were in no way justified.[36] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon-35).

Gordon states that if the 77 percent result is to be believed then an "overwhelming majority" of Germans disapproved of extermination, and if the 37 percent result is believed to be correct then over one third of Germans were willing to exterminate Poles and Jews and others for German security[36] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon-35). She concludes that the phrasing of the question on German security lowers the confidence in the later interpretation.[36] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon-35).
Gordon follows this with another survey where interviewees were asked if Nazism was good or bad (53% chose bad) and reasons for their answer. Among the nine possible choices on why it was bad, 21% chose the effects on the German people before the war, while 3-4 percent chose the answer "race policy, atrocities, pogroms"[36] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon-35) However, Gordon highlight the issue that it is difficult to pin-down at which point in time respondents became aware of the exterminations, before or after they were interviewed. e.g. questionaire reports indicate that a sinificant minority had no knowledge until the Nuremberg trials. She also notes that when confronted with the exterminations there was an element of denial, disbelief, and confusion. Asked about concentration camps, very few Germans associated them with the jews, leading to the conclusion that they did not understand how they had been used against the Jews during the war and instead continued to think of them as they were before the war, the place where political opponents to the Nazis were kept. "This naivete is only understandable if large numbers of Germans were truly ignorant of the existance of these camps".[37] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon3-36) A British study on the same attitudes concluded that
"Those who said National Socialism was a good idea pointed to social welfare plans, the lack of unemployment, the great construction plans of the Nazis....Nearly all those who thought it a good idea nevertheless rejected Nazi racial theories and disagreed with the inhumanity of the concentration camps and the 'SS'.[37] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon3-36)
Sarah Gordon writes that a majority of Germans appeared to approve of nonviolent removal of Jews from civil service and professions and German life.[36] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon-35). The German public also accepted the Nuremberg laws because they thought they would act as stabilizers and end violence against Jews.[37] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon3-36) The German public had as a result of the Nazi antisemitic propaganda hardened their attitudes between 1935 and 1938 from the originally fairly favorable. By 1938 the propaganda had had effect and antisemitic policies were accepted, provided no violence was involved.[37] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon3-36) The Kristallnacht caused German opposition to antisemitism to peak, with the vast majority of Germans rejecting the violence and destruction, and many Germans aiding the jews.[37] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon3-36) The Nazis responded by intimidation in order to discourage oposition, those aiding jews were victims of large scale arrests and intimidation.[37] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon3-36) With the start of the war the anti semitic minority that approved of restrictions on Jewish domestic activities was growing, but there is no evidence that the general public had any acceptance for labor camps or extermination.[37] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon3-36) And as the number of antisemites grew, so too did the number of Germans opposed to racial persecution, and rumors of deportations and shootings in the east led to snowballing critizism of the Nazis. Gordon states that "one can probably conclude that labor camps, concentration camps, and extermination were opposed by a majority of Germans."[37] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon3-36)
Gordon concludes her analysis on German public opinion based German SD-reports during the war and the Allied questionnaires during the occupation, with:
..it would appear that a majority of Germans supported elimination of Jews from the civil service; quotas on Jews in professions, academic institutions, and commercial fields; restrictions on intermarriage; and voluntary emigration of Jews. However, the rabid antisemites' demands for violent boycotts, illegal expropriation, destruction of Jewish property, pogroms, deportation, and extermination were probably rejected by a majority of Germans. They apparently wanted to restrict Jewish rights substantially, but not to annihilate Jews.[37] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-gordon3-36)

[Dimitrius07]

In Wikipedia's entry on Denazification, I found an interesting passage that may highlight why simplifying things the way Dimitrius and Tater are doing it,

Sorry Skybird but you wrong! I don`t need Wikipedia to defend my position againts people who don`t like the some of the historycal facts. In deep i feel like someone is really bored here or something :hmmm:

[Tribesman]

So you say that Hitler wasnt surrounded by mass hysteria love from Germans he did not march into Austria as a great leader of German race?

Did I?
Oh of course thats what I said as is demonstrated by me not saying it.

He had opposition but he also had won most of average Germans.to his side which was his first priority before making any moves.

If he had most germans before he started making moves then why was he making moves as soon as he got a minority of the vote?

[Dimitrius07]

extermination were probably rejected by a majority of Germans. They apparently wanted to restrict Jewish rights substantially, but not to annihilate Jews.

Wrong!! It was accepted by the influence of your nationalistic party. All evidence are there. Including all non Germans in the process. I can give you an example of how Hitler minions treated war prisoners.... injection, gas, experiments... you name it. So you see, facts are facts. Nothing you can do about it :D.

[MH]

Did I?

If he had most germans before he started making moves then why was he making moves as soon as he got a minority of the vote?
Because he had everyone he needed in his pocket.
The ones he did not have joined him later.

[Skybird]

Sorry Skybird but you wrong! I don`t need Wikipedia to defend my position againts people who don`t like the some of the historycal facts. In deep i feel like someone is really bored here or something :hmmm:
You are mistaking your own emotional state with facts or argument. And if you are bored here, then why do you waste your time here!?

I participated in this thread with sober statements, ignoring emotions and sentiments, but I have undersytood that you are running on sentiments almost exclusively here. And it is not likely that any argument or reason one gives, will be met well by a mind that is on emotional rampage, so to speak. I do not know whether or not your Avatar description means you are Jewish yourself and maybe your family three generations ago became victim and suffered losses due to the genocide. If so, my condolences for that, at least it would explain your emotional arousal (but it would not excuse your lack of reason, and your tendency for maximum simplification, like tater does, too). But anyway, I certainly will not try to meet emotional arousal with reason or argument. Most of the time, I learned in this forum, that is in vein, and I feel not too tempted to switch into higher gear inside here.

But the other people still watching this thread might be interested to see whether or not you have to say something on the conclusions by Sarah Ann Gordon, although you just have indicated you wish to just ignore her thoughts because it was Wikipedia who quoted her. Blaming the messenger, maybe?

[Dimitrius07]

No i never used emotions especially here. I don`t know from where you came out with that conclusion.


although you just have indicated you wish to just ignore her thoughts because it was Wikipedia who quoted her.

Not sure of what exactly you talking about.
I ignoring something because it have nothing to do with current subject, no matter if it comes from Wikipedia or not. Maybe i just miss something.

[tater]

Elminationalist anti-semitism was common in germany, and Europe in general before the war. The church plays a huge role in this, too.

Making excuses that they just wanted them as dhimmi (to borrow the islamic term for what they want all non-muslims to be (except pagans and atheist who get worse)) is pretty weak.

Hitler's willing executioners is a good starting point, even if Goldhagen's writing is pretty turgid.

Constantine's Sword is also a decent read for underlying religious issues that make the Holocaust seem like a pretty logical end point (basically, every chance where the church could have picked theology that stepped away from antisemitism they made the wrong choice. The rteal turning point probably being the Spanish Inquisition where they got all kinds of conversos, then later decided that converting wasn't enough, "jewishness" was in the "blood." and conversion didn't change that. That was the start of it becoming a race issue, and not a theological issue since it was then an "indelible" trait.

[Dimitrius07]

Making excuses that they just wanted them as dhimmi

The only one who came up with excuses is you not me. Now you making up another story because you have nothing else to say regarding the "not so aggresive" nazi Germany. If you want to play, at least give a note that you changing the subject :DL.

[tater]

Huh, I was responding to skybird.

[Dimitrius07]

Whatever you say :rock:

[CCIP]

Whatever you say :rock:

Read: "I wasn't actually looking at your post, I just wanted to accuse you of being a nazi for s***s and giggles"

:dead:

[tater]

The point was it's hardly a luminous defense to claim that the population only wanted jews persecuted, maybe converted, but not murdered.

[Tribesman]

Because he had everyone he needed in his pocket.

So its gone from Germans down to most Germans and now onto just the Germans he needed.
So would you like to water your initial statements down any further?
The ones he did not have joined him later.
Or as it seems would you appear to be reversing your position as you said it was only later that he didn't have them.

[Dimitrius07]

Read: "I wasn't actually looking at your post, I just wanted to accuse you of being a nazi for s***s and giggles"

:dead:

Tell me another joke then :woot:. More original this time :salute:

[Dimitrius07]

The point was it's hardly a luminous defense to claim that the population only wanted jews persecuted, maybe converted, but not murdered.

So thats how it happend. We were converted to....Germans. According to what exactly? :damn::rotfl2::rotfl2:

[the_tyrant]

Who ever controls the past control the future, whoever controls the presant controls the past

I think(not sure) that german kids at the time were fed propaganda films about how jews are bad
its not that they are evil, its just their education

[Task Force]

I think(not sure) that german kids at the time were fed propaganda films about how jews are bad
its not that they are evil, its just their education

Yep, The germans used alot of propaganda to get their way, which also helped get them to want to be into the hitler youth, and in the end of the war, the children armys.

[Dimitrius07]

I think(not sure) that german kids at the time were fed propaganda films about how jews are bad
its not that they are evil, its just their education

So the persecution did exist, they were no convertions in the end. :DL

[DarkFish]

So you jump from "Nazi Germany is not so bad" to my nationality again. I am not sure you following me, but whatever.
Also how this is posible:

I rest my case on this one :damn:.Jeez, do you really not get it?:doh:
I know your English skills are not great, but this shows they are either nonexistent or you're simply not even trying to read my posts.

Sorry Skybird but you wrong! I don`t need Wikipedia to defend my position againts people who don`t like the some of the historycal facts. In deep i feel like someone is really bored here or something :hmmm:Wrong!! It was accepted by the influence of your nationalistic party. All evidence are there. Including all non Germans in the process. I can give you an example of how Hitler minions treated war prisoners.... injection, gas, experiments... you name it. So you see, facts are facts. Nothing you can do about it :D.What the freaking heck?!
All these facts you mention have *nothing* to do with all of this. Nobody here has ever said the Nazis didn't kill any Jews. Nobody here claimed the Nazis didn't mistreat their prisoners. Nobody her ever said they didn't experiment on Jews and other people they didn't like. That is not a point of discussion here. So you can bring up all those facts you want, it doesn't prove a thing.

You are mistaking your own emotional state with facts or argument. And if you are bored here, then why do you waste your time here!?Exactly:yeah:
If someone here mentions the word "Israel", "Jew" or "Nazi" generally Dimitrius shows up in no-time and starts spoiling the thread with his own unreasonable extremist ideas:shifty:

[Rhodes]

Exactly:yeah:
If someone here mentions the word "Israel", "Jew" or "Nazi" generally Dimitrius shows up in no-time and starts spoiling the thread with his own unreasonable extremist ideas:shifty:

:up::yeah:
Do not feed the troll comes to mind after all this pages!

[Buddahaid]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I#Armistices_and_capitulations




Allied superiority and the stab-in-the-back legend, November 1918

In November 1918 the Allies had ample supplies of men and materiel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materiel) to invade Germany, yet at the time of the armistice, no Allied soldier had set foot on German soil in anger and Berlin was still almost 900 mi (1,400 km) from the Western Front. The Kaiser's armies had also retreated from the battlefield in good order which enabled Hindenburg and other senior German leaders to spread the story that their armies had not really been defeated. This resulted in the stab-in-the-back legend (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stab-in-the-back_legend)[130] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I#cite_note-129)[131] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I#cite_note-130) which attributed Germany's losing the war not to its inability to continue fighting (even though up to a million soldiers were suffering from the Spanish Flu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Flu) and unfit to fight), but to the public's failure to respond to its "patriotic calling" and the intentional sabotaging of the war effort, particularly by Jews, Socialists and Bolsheviks.
A formal state of war between the two sides persisted for another seven months, until signing of the Treaty of Versailles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Versailles) with Germany on 28 June 1919. Later treaties with Austria, Hungary, Bulgaria and the Ottoman Empire were signed. However, the latter treaty with the Ottoman Empire was followed by strife (the Turkish Independence War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Independence_War)) and a final peace treaty was signed between the Allied Powers and the country that would shortly become the Republic of Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Turkey), at Lausanne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Lausanne) on 24 July 1923.
Some war memorials (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_memorial) date the end of the war as being when the Versailles treaty was signed in 1919; by contrast, most commemorations of the war's end concentrate on the armistice of 11 November 1918. Legally the last formal peace treaties were not signed until the Treaty of Lausanne. Under its terms, the Allied forces divested Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople) on 23 August 1923.


Can't seem to find the U.S. general (Pershing?) who wanted to keep on fighting into Germany on 11/11/18 stating that the German people would not feel defeated and we'd have to do this all over again.

[Dimitrius07]

Relax.... ok. Calm down.

I know your English skills are not great, but this shows they are either nonexistent or you're simply not even trying to read my posts.


You said that the jews had nothing to do with the start of ww2, and i point out to you that German national party used jews as a primer source of all problems to rise up.

All these facts you mention have *nothing* to do with all of this. Nobody here has ever said the Nazis didn't kill any Jews. Nobody here claimed the Nazis didn't mistreat their prisoners. Nobody her ever said they didn't experiment on Jews and other people they didn't like. That is not a point of discussion here. So you can bring up all those facts you want, it doesn't prove a thing.

Read the post and my reply again and you will see the connection.


If someone here mentions the word "Israel", "Jew" or "Nazi" generally Dimitrius shows up in no-time and starts spoiling the thread with his own unreasonable extremist ideas

I did not mention Israel even once, you did. And i don`t need your special permission to express my point of view, don`t like it... complain to some one who cares. And while we at it... can you show me a post with any extremist (as you called it) ideas of mine. My answer is non. The subject was about nazi Germany actions which in your opinion "Not so aggressive". I disagree with you and you have to deal with that.:03:

[Dimitrius07]

:up::yeah:
Do not feed the troll comes to mind after all this pages!

Very good turn out mister Rhodes :yeah:.

First i am point out to a guy that nazi Germany was fully responsible for ww2 and as an excuse he show me 1943-1944 military operations from Wikipedia :nope:. And after that he call me a troll :DL. I rest my case...again.

[Rhodes]

Very good turn out mister Rhodes :yeah:.
Glad you like!:up:

[Dimitrius07]

Glad you like!:up:

Glad to prove to you that your words are emty :up:.

[DarkFish]

:up::yeah:
Do not feed the troll comes to mind after all this pages!Aye. Guess I will stop feeding trolls now.

Makes me wonder though... why can't trolls feed us instead? Roasted troll... yum!

http://i525.photobucket.com/albums/cc333/DF_3852/Dont_Let_Trolls_Feed_You_Demotivational.jpg

[Dimitrius07]

Admire youself again. Its not about numbers and pictures. Its about actions and they speak not in your favor :yeah:. Deliberately ignoring what others had to say, point out to our selfishness. Attempts to make it look like that only your opinion is the one that matters is another example of your selfishness behaviour. I can do the same thing you doing and examine our personality futher but i don`t think you worth my time.

[Dimitrius07]

Looking to his signature and start to understand why everything is going down this days. So you not a Doctor, you are tech or a future tech. Whatever :D

[Stealth Hunter]

No, that's not what he was saying at all. He, like I, was saying that the average German believed he was defending his country. The were indeed told that Poland attacked Germany, and they believed it.

Steve is correct.

But, moreover, the situation with Polish-German relations let alone Polish-European relations of that era is one that's largely overlooked today in history, unfortunately, by everyone.

The Poles had gone to the League of Nations to get them to award their country what parts of Silesia Germany had retained in 1921 (which was done), they had delivered an ultimatum to the Central Republic of Lithuania that demanded they hand over their territory and dissolve their government or risk war (to which the much smaller CRL complied) in 1922, and then they went back to the League of Nations in 1924, complaining about their border with Czechoslovakia (much as they had done with Germany three years previously)- after which they were awarded most of Nowy Targ County (the Czechs demanded beforehand that if this were to come to pass, that they receive in turn Sucha Gora and Glodowka in reutnr, and this was done thankfully).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_changes_of_Poland#1921
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_changes_of_Poland#1922
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_changes_of_Poland#1924

The Germans had initially been in the 1930s not so interested in taking over all of Poland as part of their foreign policy as much as they had been interested in taking back the provinces which had belonged to them (including Silesia, parts of Pomerania, the provinces along the Lower Oder River Valley, etc.). Primarily, they were focused on Danzig, because it was the province that would connect the heartland with their provinces that made up East Prussia (Konigsberg and Elbing) and because it had a HUGE ethnically German population (ethnic borders comprised a large part of their foreign policy's focus, just so you know- Austria and Czechoslovakia in particular).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Vertreibungsgebiet.jpg

So initially, they asked the Poles for Danzig. They said no. Then they pointed out that they had been awarded Silesia on the grounds of ethnicity, so it was only fair that Germany receive Danzig on the same grounds. The Poles still said no. The people of Danzig, however, finally said that they did not want to be a part of Poland; they wanted to be made a part of Germany.

The Poles responded by occupying them with several garrisons of troops, and by suppressing the government that was in place there (did I mention that Danzig was a self-governing city-state that had its own republican form of government- run by a President of the Senate in the Volkstag?).

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/eceurope/danzig19191939.html

In August 1939, Joachim von Ribbentrop was sent to discuss the feasibility of getting the Soviets to help Germany invade Poland if they refused a final time to submit to Germany's demands. This decision was made around the theory that, since the operation would be in conjunction withe the Soviets, the United Kingdom and France (both of whom had guaranteed they would support Poland if an invasion by Germany took place) would not seek to protest the issue with anybody or hold up to their promises to the Poles, risking war (if they did) with both Germany AND the Soviet Union (and even assuming they did, the Germans knew then, at least, they would have security in the east so the bulk of its military could be devoted to beating the French and British in the west).

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=90

And the Soviets agreed, largely because they were pissed at the Poles for the war they'd fought with them back in 1919. Hence, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact came to existence in the late hours of August 23rd. The next few days saw Germany asking Poland one final time for Danzig and the other respective border provinces it wished to have, the British and French still voicing their support for the Poles, lots of general mobilizations of troops, and finally, on September 1st, war.

The rest is pretty straightforward. Poland was divided between Germany and the Soviet Union, and the British and French kept their word and declared war on Germany (this really is when the Second World War started- when three major world powers and numerously smaller nations that were a part of the British Commonwealth, such as Australia, Canada, Iraq, etc., faced off against one another).

Initially, the Germans made no attacks on the French or British on land, because the French and British made no attacks on them (see the "Phoney War"). This was largely in part due to the fact that the First World War's effects were still being felt in both countries, even 20+ years on. They had both become, as Hitler wrote, "politically and militarily weak".

But there was another reason: the Germans had not originally planned to go to war with either nation. In fact, they had originally dreamed of "sharing" Europe WITH them (they'd even gone through a period where they tried to be like the English in their mannerisms and they tried to be more culturally influential like the French, particularly with music and art), considering instead to expand eastward into the resource-rich areas of Russia.

Of course, in the end, it never worked out that way. Because of the outlook on Versailles and the outcome of the First World War, it was believed by most Germans that a ground war WITH the French and a decisive defeat on the English should be launched. And, in 1940, that's exactly what happened: it all blew up. The British and French decided that it was time to start thinking tactically about what countries it should concentrate on working with in order to beat the Germans, the Germans, in conjunction with this and their aforementioned feelings about Versailles, decided that it was time to fight back.

http://www.worldwariihistory.info/1940.html

The remaining five years of conflict are pretty self-explanatory. The end result of it all: 78,878,170 people died. There were lots of things that should have been done in the beginning that weren't, by both sides, that ultimately led to the war. The Poles should have given over the territory that rightfully belonged to Germany one of the two times it was requested, the British and French should not have decided to support such a minor country as Poland and should not have declared war on the Germans following Germany's invasion to take what belonged to them, and the Germans should not have decided to go on the offensive against the British and French in 1940.

Although the remaining five years, let alone this period of a few months, were vastly more complex than this brief explanation... ultimately, World War II was just as preventable as World War I. And it probably would have been for the better if it had been prevented.

EDIT:

One thing's for certain: 78,878,170 people would not have died.

[Dimitrius07]

Your pity was not asked for, nor did I try to excuse "Mitläufer" and free them of their share of guilt - I have accused silent Mitläufer of their share of guilt myself often enough, in context both with the Nazigerman and the Muhammeddan communities. But my grandfathers both were neither Nazis, nor did they feel explicitly nationalistic - not back then, and not in the decades later. Neither had them voted for the Nazis to come to power, nor did they bring or wish to bring more nationalism to Germany than Western nations in general ticked nationalistic back in that era. And still they turned out to be victims of circumstances that - different to your claim - they, like many others, had not opted for to bring to themselves or to Germany.

This is not to excuse Naszis, or "Mitläufer", I have attacked Mitläufer myself often enough for their share of guilt in making given cirucmstances lasting on, in debates with contexts of both Nazi-Germany and Muhammeddan societies. I just want to correct this stupid polarising and stereotyping of "all Germans were Nazis". That is an extremely simplifying claim. Many Germans were turned into victims of the tryanny, too - by ideological abuse and indoctrination of the young generation, and the suffering and killing of the civilians in the cities who got killed later in the war, and many families loosing the mere basis of their existence, too. There were Nazis. There were Mitläufer. And there were innocents. The first two got dleivered what they asked for, and what they maybe deserved. The latter - were victims, like the many victims of Nazi war and Nazi terror throughout Europe.


Now question for Skybird.
Why when i asked of you to point out on where i missed something you remain silent? We could have a normal discussion for change, instead i have to deal with some random and desperate cry baby :wah:.

[DarkFish]

Don't mind his question sky. Read this post instead: http://subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530175&postcount=123

[MH]

This thread turned into A German Shmaiser and Rock n Roll.
A soviet aproach to history of ww2.

@Tribsman i have real problem to understand what you stand for besides pissing off certain if not all peaple.

[Tribesman]

@Tribsman i have real problem to understand what you stand for besides pissing off certain if not all peaple.
Thats simple, Tater made a sweeping generalisation which is quite ludicrous due to it being highly innacurate, that needed addressing which people have done. You joined with assertions along the same lines that were counterfactual and which you have now watered down to a level which shows they were not great claims to make in the first place and even in one case gone full circle and reversed your claims entirely.
So the lesson is think before you make claims as to if they actually make sense or not.
If showing that your claim was innacurate and didn't make sense pissed you off then that is your problem.

[MH]

Tribsman i did not get pissed off on you i actully like you for my own reasons.
I never claimed what tater did
Im just agains smoothing history too much.
Look at the statistic Sky brought.
I actully find it backs my claims but it depends at which side of coin you look.
Its good at least you agree on somthing with Skybird lol.

[Tribesman]

Its good at least you agree on somthing with Skybird lol.
I agree with sky on many different issues in different ways, the one thing I really disagree with him on is where his rational criticism of Islam has morphed completely into irrational obsessive hatred which is demonstrated by the frequency with which he simply lies again and again and continues despite being shown to be obviously lying, links to the craziest racist extremist nuts out there to agree with them and funnily enough considering this present topic spouts stuff that can be taken word for word from My Struggle and later 1930s-40 Nazi germany anti jewish tripe with the only difference being that the religion in question has changed.

[Dimitrius07]

Well lets clean the air :03:

Your pity was not asked for, nor did I try to excuse "Mitläufer" and free them of their share of guilt - I have accused silent Mitläufer of their share of guilt myself often enough, in context both with the Nazigerman and the Muhammeddan communities. But my grandfathers both were neither Nazis, nor did they feel explicitly nationalistic - not back then, and not in the decades later. Neither had them voted for the Nazis to come to power, nor did they bring or wish to bring more nationalism to Germany than Western nations in general ticked nationalistic back in that era. And still they turned out to be victims of circumstances that - different to your claim - they, like many others, had not opted for to bring to themselves or to Germany.

So your grandfathers had a hard time and according to your words they did not vote for nationalistic party in both elections (the first one ended as a draw). Do you remember the budge "ja" and what Hitlers minions did to other who didn`t have one? In best case they were beaten..badly.
You also claimed that your grandfathers fought the war, so they did vote at the end? I need a further explanation here. :-?

I just want to correct this stupid polarising and stereotyping of "all Germans were Nazis". That is an extremely simplifying

Here is my answer.
I don`t think that all Germans are nazis, i think that Germans were blinded and fooled by thieves, liars and paranoids.

[Dimitrius07]

Don't mind his question sky. Read this post instead: http://subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530175&postcount=123

Don`t bother with this one. Desperation is only key for someone who failed to defend his position. How pathetic and sad :cry:

[Rhodes]

Don`t bother with this one. Desperation is only key for someone who failed to defend his position. How pathetic and sad :cry:

Ahahahahahhahahahahahahhahgahahahhahahah:har::har: :har::har::har:

You have the best ones!

[Dimitrius07]

I just looked up the new posts, you realise how many threads/posts you have on this political stuff. ITS STUPID DAMNIT, and some people are sick of it, I use to like subsim, and frequent the GT, but nowdays its political slime, and the people who post it!


I think i agree with Task Force one this one. Take stupidity, ignorance and desperation and put all this together. Combine all that with pure selfishness, dummy accounts (to make it look like he is always right) and you will get
http://i226.photobucket.com/albums/dd250/kansadobe/troll2.jpg
with nothing interesting to talk about.:down:

[Dimitrius07]

Ahahahahahhahahahahahahhahgahahahhahahah:har::har: :har::har::har:

You have the best ones!

I am just warming up :rock:

[DarkFish]

Ahahahahahhahahahahahahhahgahahahhahahah:har::har: :har::har::har:

You have the best ones!He's a funny guy, isn't he:DL

Bwahahahahahaaaaa:har::haha:

[Happy Times]

I understood it fine. That's why I said the US Confederates might have thought they were fighting for a good reason, but they were in fact wrong, they were fighting for a crappy reason.

Being deluded isn't an excuse, otherwise. Confederates fought to preserve the right to own other human beings, Germans in WW2 fought to preserve the right to murder other human beings. Both are true regardless of what they might have "thought" they were fighting for.

What about slavery in the Union states?
I personally see that the main issue was the role of central goverment in the USA.

[Dowly]

Dimi is a troll, entertaining one, but still just a troll.

[Dimitrius07]

What about slavery in the Union states?
I personally see that the main issue was the role of central goverment in the USA.
And what about people who put they life on the line and fought against slavery in the "Union states"? In some point you start to realize that when you give human rights to SOME animals, you automatically loosing yours in the process.

[Dimitrius07]

Dimi is a troll, entertaining one, but still just a troll.

Emty words :yeah:

[Happy Times]

And what about people who put they life on the line and fought against slavery in the "Union states"? In some point you start to realize that when you give human rights to SOME animals, you automatically loosing yours in the process.

What?:hmmm:

[Dowly]

Emty words :yeah:

Well it got your attention. :O:

As for the actual topic, you might want to read how germany worked at the time, before making idiotic and/or uneducated posts. It wasnt black and white back then.

This for you too, Tater. :salute:

[Rhodes]

He's a funny guy, isn't he:DL

Bwahahahahahaaaaa:har::haha:

Yes and I know that I aware that I am feeding the troll by posting here!
This thread should end, because the more one "postes" here, the more he will feed.

You (Dimitrius07) give jews a bad name!
Now you have fuel/food for many more posts. And I do not mind of going to the brig because of this! Any one who tries to post here some idea or historical knowledge will be quote and the meaning completly changed.
:O::O::O::O::O::O::O::O::O::O::O::O::O::O:

[Buddahaid]

Don`t bother with this one. Desperation is only key for someone who failed to defend his position. How pathetic and sad :cry:

You should then use your own advice and don't bother with it as it only begs for another snide quip in return. I'm interested in this thread, but the childish sandbox war is getting in the way.

People, feel free to argue the issue and leave the personal insults out please.

Germany did not invent the 'blame the jews' attitude, they just applied modern assembly line practices to it. It scares me to see the roots of the genocide tree forming over Mexican illegals in the U.S. among the far, far right. I feel this is a mass hysteria formed by those who refuse to look at themselves as the cause for their problems, and then choose a convenient group to fixate on.

60,000 to 200,000 jews were killed in the pograms of Russia. Turks committed genocide on Armenians, etc. The will for people to eradicate others with different ethnicity and religion is a sadly common human trait that I just can't understand. :cry:

[Dimitrius07]

Well it got your attention. :O:

And you got yours long time ago, i guess everybody`s happy:D

As for the actual topic

Start talking to a topic then, "mister educations". "White - black - black - white". Thats all you gooot for :yeah:

[Dowly]

Start talking to a topic then, "mister educations". "White - black - black - white". Thats all you gooot for :yeah:

I talked to whom I had interest to talk in this particular topic. You and Tater both share a rather, should I say, passionate view on how it was in nazi Germany, that is all fine, but stick to facts.

[Dimitrius07]

You should then use your own advice and don't bother with it as it only begs for another snide quip in return. I'm interested in this thread, but the childish sandbox war is getting in the way.


Thats exactly what i wrote couple of post back, but what are you want from me here? I start a normal discussion with person and when he have nothing else to say he goes crazy and call me a troll. Very easy position i must say.

People, feel free to argue the issue

You right. However thats also include others, not only you.
and leave the personal insults out please.

I never used personal insult in this thread. Maybe some one could just provoke me to do it:88).

[Buddahaid]

Start talking to a topic then, "mister educations". "White - black - black - white". Thats all you gooot for :yeah:

Case in point! Stop the sandbox war.

[MH]

Dimitrius why dont you replace the BIG Israeli flag with a soviet one.
You realy embaras me as Israeli.
Are you a KGB agent by any chance or you are drunk ?
Calm down.

[Dimitrius07]

I talked to whom I had interest to talk in this particular topic. You and Tater both share a rather, should I say, passionate view on how it was in nazi Germany, that is all fine, but stick to facts.

So use ignore and stop talking to me. Case close :salute:

[Dimitrius07]

Dimitrius why dont you replace the BIG Israeli flag with a soviet one.
You realy embaras me as Israeli.
Are you a KGB agent by any chance or you are drunk ?
Calm down.

At least i represent something instead of jumping from one account to the other. Don`t worry. So far i stand strong with me belives. So much for embarasment :salute:

[Dowly]

So use ignore and stop talking to me. Case close :salute:

Mom told me that ignoring people is rude. :yep:

[Happy Times]

Dimitrius why dont you replace the BIG Israeli flag with a soviet one.
You realy embaras me as Israeli.
Are you a KGB agent by any chance or you are drunk ?
Calm down.

Many of them came with false papers and arent even Jewish, am i correct?

[Buddahaid]

Mom told me that ignoring people is rude. :yep:

You have a good mom. How's the weather?

[Dowly]

You have a good mom. How's the weather?

Snowing, -1C :shifty:

[Rhodes]

Snowing, -1C :shifty:

How I want snow here. 23ºC here, fine day of fall!

Dowly, do not feed the troll! You know best how he is. Let the thread die, even he thinks he has the final word...

[Dimitrius07]

Mom told me that ignoring people is rude. :yep:
So i notice :yep:

[DarkFish]

You should then use your own advice and don't bother with it as it only begs for another snide quip in return. I'm interested in this thread, but the childish sandbox war is getting in the way.

People, feel free to argue the issue and leave the personal insults out please.I'd love to start discussing the issue again, but one certain member makes it impossible to normally do so.
As his posts/arguments don't make any sense at all, they're not worth responding to. Which leaves only Tater as a worthy opponent in this argument. But since his last comment was already a few pages ago, he'd really need to make a new comment unless this discussion ain't going nowhere.

[MH]

Many of them came with false papers and arent even Jewish, am i correct?

Please dont drug this into that. .
Israel is emigrants country and i dont care.
Rusian emigration into Israel is one of the best thing that happend to the coutry.
Dimitrius must be simply drunk lol

[Dimitrius07]

Dowly, do not feed the troll! You know best how he is. Let the thread die, even he thinks he has the final word...

Again.... emty words. No matter how much you will post this :yawn:. OMG why you so god damn boring. Tell me another nasty joke thins you lost on every front :woot::yeah:

[Dimitrius07]

Please dont drug this into that. .
Israel is emigrants country and i dont care.
Rusian emigration into Israel is one of the best thing that happend to the coutry.
Dimitrius must be simply drunk lol

No no let him talk. See if i care what he thinks :yeah:

[Happy Times]

Please dont drug this into that. .
Israel is emigrants country and i dont care.
Rusian emigration into Israel is one of the best thing that happend to the coutry.
Dimitrius must be simply drunk lol

I was just pointing out that some might actually be agents.:D

[Buddahaid]

I'd love to start discussing the issue again, but one certain member makes it impossible to normally do so.
As his posts/arguments don't make any sense at all, they're not worth responding to. Which leaves only Tater as a worthy opponent in this argument. But since his last comment was already a few pages ago, he'd really need to make a new comment unless this discussion ain't going nowhere.

There are others here that can show the way.

[Rhodes]

Again.... emty words. No matter how much you will post this :yawn:. OMG why you so god damn boring. Tell me another nasty joke thins you lost on every front :woot::yeah:

Emty words, I do not admit that from you. Empty word yes, but not emty!
If I am so boring why do you quote me? Hmmmmm? Nasty joke, do you want one, then you would be saying that I was rude and bad! Naaaa, I think not!

[Dimitrius07]

Emty words, I do not admit that from you. Empty word yes, but not emty!

So they are emty.. or not emty :-?

If I am so boring why do you quote me? Hmmmmm? Nasty joke, do you want one, then you would be saying that I was rude and bad! Naaaa, I think not!


You mentioned it, not me. I am here only for a friendly discussion :88).

[Rhodes]

You mentioned it, not me. I am here only for a friendly discussion :88).

Ahahahahah "friendly discussion" you know the best ones realy!
If I recall, you quote me first in post #126 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530211&postcount=126)!

[Dimitrius07]

Ahahahahah "friendly discussion" you know the best ones realy!
If I recall, you quote me first in post #126 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530211&postcount=126)!

And? What is this proving exactly!?!?:nope::damn:

[Rhodes]

And? What is this proving exactly!?!?:nope::damn:

That you quote me first not the other way around! If I need to explain this, well, I rest my case!
Of now, be a good sport! tata!

[DarkFish]

Just gotta put up a quote by Task Force in another thread:This begs the question. Why hasnt he been banned, why is he still allowed to create problems for the members who are trying to have fun, I am not questioning the Mods actions, or how they handle things, I just think some people need to be delt with, because they are just trolling. and causeing problems in general.

He is like a child in school, you slap him on the wrist, and push him out the door, but he never learns his lesson. Exactly:shifty:

[Méo]

Agreed.

[Dimitrius07]

That you quote me first not the other way around! If I need to explain this, well, I rest my case!
Of now, be a good sport! tata!

And what is quotes have to do with anything :nope:. I was talking about Nazi Germany full responsibility of ww2, what "SPORT"? :damn: . Are you gone total crazy or what:o

[Dowly]

Every forum needs an troll. GT would be so much more boring without one. :yep:

[Buddahaid]

Every forum needs an troll. GT would be so much more boring without one. :yep:

Are you suggesting a Subsim award for best troll?

[Dowly]

Are you suggesting a Subsim award for best troll?

That's an idea. :yep:

[Rhodes]

That's an idea. :yep:

I would support this but the idea of all the trolls being here and posting to get the award...hummmmm:hmmm:

[Dimitrius07]

That's an idea. :yep:

And what about award for the last post. Don`t forget about that also. No matter how much you cry. Actions speak louder :yeah:trolly:up::yep:

[Dowly]

And what about award for the last post. Don`t forget about that also. No matter how much you cry. Actions speak louder :yeah:trolly:up::yep:

You have to do better than that if you're trying to bait me. ;)

[Takeda Shingen]

Every forum needs an troll. GT would be so much more boring without one. :yep:

Given the course of the last few weeks, I think that we could all do with some boring for awhile.

[Buddahaid]

I would support this but the idea of all the trolls being here and posting to get the award...hummmmm:hmmm:

Winner gets banned. Bwahahaha!

[DarkFish]

Are you suggesting a Subsim award for best troll?
That's an idea. :yep:I think we've got a contestant already:DL

[Dimitrius07]

You have to do better than that if you're trying to bait me. ;)
No i only represent facts and they are not in your favor :D.

[Dowly]

Given the course of the last few weeks, I think that we could all do with some boring for awhile.

Ow hell no! I take a troll anytime over 2 pages worth of Steamwakes OBAMA IS EVIL threads. :DL

[DarkFish]

Ow hell no! I take a troll anytime over 2 pages worth of Steamwakes OBAMA IS EVIL threads. :DLAye! Trolls are much more fun:DL

[Dimitrius07]

Winner gets banned. Bwahahaha!
Omg. I don`t think this is going to stop me. I can hit you with your own weapon if i want to :03:.

[Buddahaid]

Ow hell no! I take a troll anytime over 2 pages worth of Steamwakes OBAMA IS EVIL threads. :DL

I bid five quatloos for the trolls.

[Dimitrius07]

aye! Trolls are much more fun:dl

emty words :dl

[Dowly]

No i only represent facts and they are not in your favor :D.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know that issues created in a small mind like yours are now considered as fact.

[Buddahaid]

Omg. I don`t think this is going to stop me. I can hit you with your own weapon if i want to :03:.

That was an admission of trolling the thread. Hook, line, and sinker. :woot:

[Dimitrius07]

That was an admission of trolling the thread. Hook, line, and sinker. :woot:

Well you sunk long time ago, so don`t try to scare me. BTW. Even if i had a dummy accounts that's not mean i am a troll. According to you however everyone who not agree with you are trolls, so there is a huge differences.

[Rhodes]

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know that issues created in a small mind like yours are now considered as fact.

http://img257.imageshack.us/img257/1033/badum1.jpg (http://img257.imageshack.us/i/badum1.jpg/)

[MH]

Here is line for your signature Dim...
Opinions are like ass holes-everyone has got one.

[Buddahaid]

Case in point! Stop the sandbox war.

#156 when I gave you more oportunities to prove otherwise. You are a troll.

[Dimitrius07]

Here is line for your signature Dim...
Opinions are like ass holes-everyone has got one.
YEP! But when you post same idiosity over and over again, this is becoming a problem not just opinion. Its good to be the winner against overwhelming forces of zombies :har::rotfl2:.

[DarkFish]

Well you sunk long time ago, so don`t try to scare me. BTW. Even if i had a dummy accounts that's not mean i am a troll. According to you however everyone who not agree with you are trolls, so there is a huge differences.Did Dimmy just admit he's got multiple accounts?

[Dimitrius07]

#156 when I gave you more oportunities to prove otherwise. You are a troll.
Man, lookout!!!!!:o You talking to yourself in public :dead:

[Dowly]

YEP! But when you post same idiosity over and over again, this is becoming a problem not just opinion.

They are called facts, but you wouldn't know nothing about them now would you. :O:

[Buddahaid]

YEP! But when you post same idiosity over and over again, this is becoming a problem not just opinion. Its good to be the winner against overwhelming forces of zombies :har::rotfl2:.

I'm amazed. After turning the thread into it's poor me against the world, you claim to be the victim. The air must be pretty rarified up there.

[Dimitrius07]

They are called facts, but you wouldn't know nothing about them now would you. :O:

I already provide you with facts :yeah:. Still unhappy about it

[Dowly]

I already provide you with facts :yeah:. Still unhappy about it

Nope, products of your imagination still aren't called facts.

[Dimitrius07]

I'm amazed. After turning the thread into it's poor me against the world, you claim to be the victim. The air must be pretty rarified up there.

Wrong. The thread turned into a mess because i was able to defend my position regarding Nazi Germany. Some people here instead of taking this like a man, start to cry :wah:. I never said that i am a victim. Its something that you trying to do, not me.

[DarkFish]

i was able to defend my position regarding Nazi Germany.:o

:haha::har::rotfl2::har:

[Dimitrius07]

Nope, products of your imagination still aren't called facts.
Yeah right! And your repeated spamming is also my imagination :DL.

[Dimitrius07]

:o

:haha::har::rotfl2::har:

What so funny:woot:.

I was able to prove that Nazi Germany was fully responsible for ww2. Your well known tactics will not work here. Sorry :cry:

[Dowly]

Yeah right! And your repeated spamming is also my imagination :DL.

I am merely responding to your posts, the last time I checked, it's not called spamming.

[Buddahaid]

Wrong. The thread turned into a mess because i was able to defend my position regarding Nazi Germany. Some people here instead of taking this like a man, start to cry :wah:. I never said that i am a victim. Its something that you trying to do, not me.

You are the one who continually fell back on derogatory remarks to back up your position, instead of arguing its merit. And, because you refuse to understand my previous post, I must be talking to myself afterall.

Perhaps you can summarize why your position is irrefutable?

[DarkFish]

I was able to prove that Nazi Germany was fully responsible for ww2.You're a real joker, aren't you?:DL

Besides, the responsibility for the war doesn't have anything to do with the discussion. So a huge thanks for not proving something insignificant:DL

[Dimitrius07]

You're a real joker, aren't you?:DL

Besides, the responsibility for the war doesn't have anything to do with the discussion. So a huge thanks for not proving something insignificant:DL

And who started this... me?
Well Skybird wrote some interesting article but he also did not bother to explain himself. Thats why i came to "clear the air". And thanks to your spamming i missed his reply which is also lacking explanation. And in addition you came up, lost the fight and then started to call me a troll. Thats it :DL:rotfl2:

[Tribesman]

What so funny
Lets see.....
I was able to prove that Nazi Germany was fully responsible for ww2.
Thats very funny.
It shows you have as much difficulty with words like prove, fully and responsible as you do with the word fact.:rotfl2:

[Dimitrius07]

Lets see.....

Thats very funny.
It shows you have as much difficulty with words like prove, fully and responsible as you do with the word fact.:rotfl2:

Aaa! Well that's happening due to my lack of concentration. This is not changing anything however. In fact this is another big "punch" from me:cool:. With your full advantage, i still manage to defend my point of view.

[Buddahaid]

Aaa! Well that's happening due to my lack of concentration. This is not changing anything however. In fact this is another big "punch" from me:cool:. With your full advantage, i still manage to defend my point of view.

Defend how? All I see is you repeating you are right and expecting a different result.

[Dimitrius07]

Defend how? All I see is you repeating you are right and expecting a different result.

Well prove to me that i am wrong then. With arguments for a change :rock:

[Dimitrius07]

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

[Stealth Hunter]

I was able to prove that Nazi Germany was fully responsible for ww2.

And I was able to prove that that's complete bulls**t.

So this time, rather than only give you a link where you might miss it, I'll give you the full wall of text of everything I pointed out that proves that more than one party was responsible for causing World War II, and that the claim that Germany caused it all is complete bunk.

Steve is correct.

But, moreover, the situation with Polish-German relations let alone Polish-European relations of that era is one that's largely overlooked today in history, unfortunately, by everyone.

The Poles had gone to the League of Nations to get them to award their country what parts of Silesia Germany had retained in 1921 (which was done), they had delivered an ultimatum to the Central Republic of Lithuania that demanded they hand over their territory and dissolve their government or risk war (to which the much smaller CRL complied) in 1922, and then they went back to the League of Nations in 1924, complaining about their border with Czechoslovakia (much as they had done with Germany three years previously)- after which they were awarded most of Nowy Targ County (the Czechs demanded beforehand that if this were to come to pass, that they receive in turn Sucha Gora and Glodowka in return, and this was done thankfully).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_changes_of_Poland#1921
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_changes_of_Poland#1922
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_changes_of_Poland#1924

The Germans had initially been in the 1930s not so interested in taking over all of Poland as part of their foreign policy as much as they had been interested in taking back the provinces which had belonged to them (including Silesia, parts of Pomerania, the provinces along the Lower Oder River Valley, etc.). Primarily, they were focused on Danzig, because it was the province that would connect the heartland with their provinces that made up East Prussia (Konigsberg and Elbing) and because it had a HUGE ethnically German population (ethnic borders comprised a large part of their foreign policy's focus, just so you know- Austria and Czechoslovakia in particular).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Vertreibungsgebiet.jpg

So initially, they asked the Poles for Danzig. They said no. Then they pointed out that they had been awarded Silesia on the grounds of ethnicity, so it was only fair that Germany receive Danzig on the same grounds. The Poles still said no. The people of Danzig, however, finally said that they did not want to be a part of Poland; they wanted to be made a part of Germany.

The Poles responded by occupying them with several garrisons of troops, and by suppressing the government that was in place there (did I mention that Danzig was a self-governing city-state that had its own republican form of government- run by a President of the Senate in the Volkstag?).

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/eceurope/danzig19191939.html

In August 1939, Joachim von Ribbentrop was sent to discuss the feasibility of getting the Soviets to help Germany invade Poland if they refused a final time to submit to Germany's demands. This decision was made around the theory that, since the operation would be in conjunction withe the Soviets, the United Kingdom and France (both of whom had guaranteed they would support Poland if an invasion by Germany took place) would not seek to protest the issue with anybody or hold up to their promises to the Poles, risking war (if they did) with both Germany AND the Soviet Union (and even assuming they did, the Germans knew then, at least, they would have security in the east so the bulk of its military could be devoted to beating the French and British in the west).

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=90

And the Soviets agreed, largely because they were pissed at the Poles for the war they'd fought with them back in 1919. Hence, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact came to existence in the late hours of August 23rd. The next few days saw Germany asking Poland one final time for Danzig and the other respective border provinces it wished to have, the British and French still voicing their support for the Poles, lots of general mobilizations of troops, and finally, on September 1st, war.

The rest is pretty straightforward. Poland was divided between Germany and the Soviet Union, and the British and French kept their word and declared war on Germany (this really is when the Second World War started- when three major world powers and numerously smaller nations that were a part of the British Commonwealth, such as Australia, Canada, Iraq, etc., faced off against one another).

Initially, the Germans made no attacks on the French or British on land, because the French and British made no attacks on them (see the "Phoney War"). This was largely in part due to the fact that the First World War's effects were still being felt in both countries, even 20+ years on. They had both become, as Hitler wrote, "politically and militarily weak".

But there was another reason: the Germans had not originally planned to go to war with either nation. In fact, they had originally dreamed of "sharing" Europe WITH them (they'd even gone through a period where they tried to be like the English in their mannerisms and they tried to be more culturally influential like the French, particularly with music and art), considering instead to expand eastward into the resource-rich areas of Russia.

Of course, in the end, it never worked out that way. Because of the outlook on Versailles and the outcome of the First World War, it was believed by most Germans that a ground war WITH the French and a decisive defeat on the English should be launched. And, in 1940, that's exactly what happened: it all blew up. The British and French decided that it was time to start thinking tactically about what countries it should concentrate on working with in order to beat the Germans, the Germans, in conjunction with this and their aforementioned feelings about Versailles, decided that it was time to fight back.

http://www.worldwariihistory.info/1940.html

The remaining five years of conflict are pretty self-explanatory. The end result of it all: 78,878,170 people died. There were lots of things that should have been done in the beginning that weren't, by both sides, that ultimately led to the war. The Poles should have given over the territory that rightfully belonged to Germany one of the two times it was requested, the British and French should not have decided to support such a minor country as Poland and should not have declared war on the Germans following Germany's invasion to take what belonged to them, and the Germans should not have decided to go on the offensive against the British and French in 1940.

Although the remaining five years, let alone this period of a few months, were vastly more complex than this brief explanation... ultimately, World War II was just as preventable as World War I. And it probably would have been for the better if it had been prevented.

EDIT:

One thing's for certain: 78,878,170 people would not have died.

[Buddahaid]

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

This is why I will not bother.

[DarkFish]

Well prove to me that i am wrong then. With arguments for a change :rock:We do! We have been doing that all the time. It's no use though, cause all you ever do is say you are right whatever our arguments may be. It goes like this:


Someone: "Look at this historical fact"

You: "Nazis, Germany, Hitler, I'm right."

Someone: "No you aren't, as shown by this fact"

You: "Nazis, Guilt, I'm right, Jews, Israel, Nazis, I'm right."

Someone: "Now just look at this evidence for a minute"

You: "Nazis, You didn't prove a thing, I'm right, Empty words, Nazis, I'm right, You're wrong, Nazis, I'm right, I'm right"

Someone: "You're not listening, are you?"

You: "Trolls, Nazis, I'm right, Trolls, I'm right, I'm right, Empty words, I'm right, I'm right, Trolls, I'm right, I'm right, Empty words, I'm right, oh did I mention I am right already?"

[Stealth Hunter]

We do! We have been doing that all the time. It's no use though, cause all you ever do is say you are right whatever our arguments may be. It goes like this:


Someone: "Look at this historical fact"

You: "Nazis, Germany, Hitler, I'm right."

Someone: "No you aren't, as shown by this fact"

You: "Nazis, Guilt, I'm right, Jews, Israel, Nazis, I'm right."

Someone: "Now just look at this evidence for a minute"

You: "Nazis, You didn't prove a thing, I'm right, Empty words, Nazis, I'm right, You're wrong, Nazis, I'm right, I'm right"

Someone: "You're not listening, are you?"

You: "Trolls, Nazis, I'm right, Trolls, I'm right, I'm right, Empty words, I'm right, I'm right, Trolls, I'm right, I'm right, Empty words, I'm right, oh did I mention I am right already?"

Yep. His arguments pretty much come down to this.

http://i45.tinypic.com/2nsc2yv.jpg

[Oberon]

We do! We have been doing that all the time. It's no use though, cause all you ever do is say you are right whatever our arguments may be. It goes like this:


Someone: "Look at this historical fact"

You: "Nazis, Germany, Hitler, I'm right."

Someone: "No you aren't, as shown by this fact"

You: "Nazis, Guilt, I'm right, Jews, Israel, Nazis, I'm right."

Someone: "Now just look at this evidence for a minute"

You: "Nazis, You didn't prove a thing, I'm right, Empty words, Nazis, I'm right, You're wrong, Nazis, I'm right, I'm right"

Someone: "You're not listening, are you?"

You: "Trolls, Nazis, I'm right, Trolls, I'm right, I'm right, Empty words, I'm right, I'm right, Trolls, I'm right, I'm right, Empty words, I'm right, oh did I mention I am right already?"

That's a pretty good summary of the latter part of this thread. :yep::up:

[Jimbuna]

Could be the makings of an interesting weekend...

http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6942/popcorncowtx0.gif

[Dimitrius07]

Yep. His arguments pretty much come down to this.

Show me were in this thread i used that kind of arguments. Answer non. Emty words:salute:

[the_tyrant]

Never argue with an idiot, he would drag you down to his IQ and beat you with experience

If you think Dimitrius07 or Skybird is an idiot, than don't keep bumping this thread!

Of course, I enjoy this flame war. Since both sides have ample experience:yeah:

[Happy Times]

Every forum needs an troll. GT would be so much more boring without one. :yep:

I liked Ivan or what was his name..:hmmm:

[Stealth Hunter]

Show me were in this thread i used that kind of arguments. Answer non. Emty words:salute:

For those who are about ready to read through this rather large list of medium-sized posts, have some background music:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeJs0_26XMk

And so it begins.:salute:


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1529319&postcount=52
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1529796&postcount=71
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1529837&postcount=76
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1529917&postcount=92
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1529957&postcount=100
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1529992&postcount=102
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530005&postcount=104
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530014&postcount=106
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530046&postcount=111
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530194&postcount=125
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530211&postcount=126
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530350&postcount=130
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530636&postcount=139
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530637&postcount=140
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530745&postcount=179
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530764&postcount=189
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530779&postcount=201
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530787&postcount=206
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530790&postcount=208
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530794&postcount=211
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530801&postcount=215
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530809&postcount=217

Now, would you kindly take time to refute my post:

Steve is correct.

But, moreover, the situation with Polish-German relations let alone Polish-European relations of that era is one that's largely overlooked today in history, unfortunately, by everyone.

The Poles had gone to the League of Nations to get them to award their country what parts of Silesia Germany had retained in 1921 (which was done), they had delivered an ultimatum to the Central Republic of Lithuania that demanded they hand over their territory and dissolve their government or risk war (to which the much smaller CRL complied) in 1922, and then they went back to the League of Nations in 1924, complaining about their border with Czechoslovakia (much as they had done with Germany three years previously)- after which they were awarded most of Nowy Targ County (the Czechs demanded beforehand that if this were to come to pass, that they receive in turn Sucha Gora and Glodowka in return, and this was done thankfully).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_changes_of_Poland#1921
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_changes_of_Poland#1922
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_changes_of_Poland#1924

The Germans had initially been in the 1930s not so interested in taking over all of Poland as part of their foreign policy as much as they had been interested in taking back the provinces which had belonged to them (including Silesia, parts of Pomerania, the provinces along the Lower Oder River Valley, etc.). Primarily, they were focused on Danzig, because it was the province that would connect the heartland with their provinces that made up East Prussia (Konigsberg and Elbing) and because it had a HUGE ethnically German population (ethnic borders comprised a large part of their foreign policy's focus, just so you know- Austria and Czechoslovakia in particular).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Vertreibungsgebiet.jpg

So initially, they asked the Poles for Danzig. They said no. Then they pointed out that they had been awarded Silesia on the grounds of ethnicity, so it was only fair that Germany receive Danzig on the same grounds. The Poles still said no. The people of Danzig, however, finally said that they did not want to be a part of Poland; they wanted to be made a part of Germany.

The Poles responded by occupying them with several garrisons of troops, and by suppressing the government that was in place there (did I mention that Danzig was a self-governing city-state that had its own republican form of government- run by a President of the Senate in the Volkstag?).

http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/eceurope/danzig19191939.html

In August 1939, Joachim von Ribbentrop was sent to discuss the feasibility of getting the Soviets to help Germany invade Poland if they refused a final time to submit to Germany's demands. This decision was made around the theory that, since the operation would be in conjunction withe the Soviets, the United Kingdom and France (both of whom had guaranteed they would support Poland if an invasion by Germany took place) would not seek to protest the issue with anybody or hold up to their promises to the Poles, risking war (if they did) with both Germany AND the Soviet Union (and even assuming they did, the Germans knew then, at least, they would have security in the east so the bulk of its military could be devoted to beating the French and British in the west).

http://ww2db.com/battle_spec.php?battle_id=90

And the Soviets agreed, largely because they were pissed at the Poles for the war they'd fought with them back in 1919. Hence, the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact came to existence in the late hours of August 23rd. The next few days saw Germany asking Poland one final time for Danzig and the other respective border provinces it wished to have, the British and French still voicing their support for the Poles, lots of general mobilizations of troops, and finally, on September 1st, war.

The rest is pretty straightforward. Poland was divided between Germany and the Soviet Union, and the British and French kept their word and declared war on Germany (this really is when the Second World War started- when three major world powers and numerously smaller nations that were a part of the British Commonwealth, such as Australia, Canada, Iraq, etc., faced off against one another).

Initially, the Germans made no attacks on the French or British on land, because the French and British made no attacks on them (see the "Phoney War"). This was largely in part due to the fact that the First World War's effects were still being felt in both countries, even 20+ years on. They had both become, as Hitler wrote, "politically and militarily weak".

But there was another reason: the Germans had not originally planned to go to war with either nation. In fact, they had originally dreamed of "sharing" Europe WITH them (they'd even gone through a period where they tried to be like the English in their mannerisms and they tried to be more culturally influential like the French, particularly with music and art), considering instead to expand eastward into the resource-rich areas of Russia.

Of course, in the end, it never worked out that way. Because of the outlook on Versailles and the outcome of the First World War, it was believed by most Germans that a ground war WITH the French and a decisive defeat on the English should be launched. And, in 1940, that's exactly what happened: it all blew up. The British and French decided that it was time to start thinking tactically about what countries it should concentrate on working with in order to beat the Germans, the Germans, in conjunction with this and their aforementioned feelings about Versailles, decided that it was time to fight back.

http://www.worldwariihistory.info/1940.html

The remaining five years of conflict are pretty self-explanatory. The end result of it all: 78,878,170 people died. There were lots of things that should have been done in the beginning that weren't, by both sides, that ultimately led to the war. The Poles should have given over the territory that rightfully belonged to Germany one of the two times it was requested, the British and French should not have decided to support such a minor country as Poland and should not have declared war on the Germans following Germany's invasion to take what belonged to them, and the Germans should not have decided to go on the offensive against the British and French in 1940.

Although the remaining five years, let alone this period of a few months, were vastly more complex than this brief explanation... ultimately, World War II was just as preventable as World War I. And it probably would have been for the better if it had been prevented.

EDIT:

One thing's for certain: 78,878,170 people would not have died.

The one that showed the "point" you were trying to make (that Germany was completely responsible for World War II) was complete bunk? For a man who claims to have all the answers and know all the facts, you certainly aren't doing so good at debunking my post. Which, given the huge amount of resources you evidently have, it shouldn't be a problem... it isn't a problem for you, is it?:hmmm:

[Gerald]

Let us squeeze out this thread, :yawn:

[Dimitrius07]

And I was able to prove that that's complete bulls**t.



You prove NOTHING. Instead bringing historycal data regarding the current subject you go around it. To bad you did not mentioned Jesus and Roman Empire as well.:damn:

In conclusion what was the plan for Germans regarding Poland? Hm!! You know the answer and i know the answer. So don`t try to play this games with me ok. What happend to Russian soldiers in Poland in that time, you know? Innocent Germans shoot them in the back and latter invade they country as well (one of the biggest mistakes Hitler done if you ask me).
The bottom line is:
Hitler wanted to take over the world, just like any dictatorship wants.And just like you buddy in Iran also wants ;). You probably going to denie this as well :damn:.
-----------
See a person like to type long and big words. But when it comes to explanation he start to spam. Long live the internet :up:

[Stealth Hunter]

Let us squeeze out this thread, :yawn:

And slap a muzzle on the trolls. A few months, preferably.

[Jimbuna]

Anyone for tennis?

http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img104/2807/icontennisyk3.gif

[Dimitrius07]

And so it begins.:salute:


http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...9&postcount=52 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1529319&postcount=52)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...6&postcount=71 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1529796&postcount=71)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...7&postcount=76 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1529837&postcount=76)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...7&postcount=92 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1529917&postcount=92)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=100 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1529957&postcount=100)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=102 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1529992&postcount=102)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=104 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530005&postcount=104)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=106 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530014&postcount=106)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=111 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530046&postcount=111)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=125 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530194&postcount=125)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=126 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530211&postcount=126)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=130 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530350&postcount=130)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=139 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530636&postcount=139)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=140 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530637&postcount=140)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=179 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530745&postcount=179)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=189 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530764&postcount=189)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=201 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530779&postcount=201)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=206 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530787&postcount=206)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=208 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530790&postcount=208)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=211 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530794&postcount=211)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=215 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530801&postcount=215)
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/show...&postcount=217 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1530809&postcount=217)




Nothing regarding myself calling OTHER MEMBERS nazis just because of disagreement. Sorry your claims are false and pathetic.

[Dimitrius07]

If you think Dimitrius07 or Skybird is an idiot,

I don`t care what you think personaly. So if you have nothing else to say either join to Zombi squad or keep your insults to yourself.

[Dimitrius07]

Common.... Next!

[Buddahaid]

Nothing regarding myself calling OTHER MEMBERS nazis just because of disagreement. Sorry your claims are false and pathetic.

No one has said you are calling people nazis. I think most of this is poor communication, laced with 'I told you so, you idiot' comments that are childish and unhelpful. You misunderstand much and reply with confrontational words, instead of please elaborate.

EDIT: Another thing is while I agree Germany has much resonsibilty for the war, to state they were fully responsible is too simplistic and easy. The causes are deeper and had been brewing for decades. If you care to draw a line at 1/9/39, you are using blinders.

[Happy Times]

What happend to Russian soldiers in Poland in that time, you know? Innocent Germans shoot them in the back and latter invade they country as well (one of the biggest mistakes Hitler done if you ask me).

The bottom line is:
Hitler wanted to take over the world, just like any dictatorship wants.

That would include the USSR and Stalin, right?
They actually had a plan to take over the world, unlike Germany and Hitler or many other dictatorships.

[Gerald]

Anyone for tennis?

http://imgcash6.imageshack.us/img104/2807/icontennisyk3.gif :know:

[Dowly]

...or keep your insults to yourself.

Was it not you who accused me of being a neo-nazi? :roll:

[Dimitrius07]

That would include the USSR and Stalin, right?
They actually had a plan to take over the world, unlike Germany and Hitler or many other dictatorships.

It was a possibility if Stalin collaborated with Hitler. But they main plan was to devine Poland almost half by half. Go read Wikipedia and see if i am wrong.

[Dimitrius07]

Was it not you who accused me of being a neo-nazi? :roll:

Yes but not here and with right reasons (you admit it yourself). You claim that i use this againts everyone and everywhere. Well as you can see you wrong :woot:.

[antikristuseke]

Was it not you who accused me of being a neo-nazi? :roll:

But Dowly, we are both baldish and tall and white and we wear boots, that msut mean we are neo nazis.

[Dowly]

Go read Wikipedia and see if i am wrong.

Wikipedia gives you only "what you need to know" stuff, read real articles and you learn something. Wiki gives you black and white, there's much more to it.

[Stealth Hunter]

You prove NOTHING.

Actually, I proved that Germany was not solely responsible for World War II, thereby refuting your claim that they were.

Instead bringing historycal data regarding the current subject you go around it.

How exactly? Empty words, my friend.:salute:

To bad you did not mentioned Jesus and Roman Empire as well.

Jesus and the Roman Empire have nothing to do with Germany, the Second World War, Poland, or European politics of the 20th century from 1920-1945.

In conclusion what was the plan for Germans regarding Poland?

If you had bothered to read my post, let alone any of my citations, you would have noticed that they were only planning to go after provinces that they had originally owned- particularly focusing on Danzig. Evidently, you did not bother to... conveniently enough. The plan after the invasion began was to split the country with the Soviet Union, as per the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. And this was done. It could have been avoided if the Poles had turned over the respective territories that rightfully belonged to Germany, but they didn't. They were sure as hell quick to take territory from the Germans (as they did with Silesia), but no sir, they couldn't give any that really didn't even belong to them (like Danzig).

Hm!! You know the answer

Yep. Gave you lots of good information in that post of mine I quoted above.

and i know the answer.

Pray tell then, why did you ask me what the German plans were for Poland then? If you knew, it should not have been necessary.

So don`t try to play this games with me ok.

Or what? What are you going to do lol? Not a damn thing.:haha:

What happend to Russian soldiers in Poland in that time, you know?

Russia did not have any soldiers in Poland when the Germans invaded in 1939, you moron...

Innocent Germans shoot them in the back and latter invade they country as well

Lol, well that's got to be difficult. Shooting someone in the back who isn't even physically there, I mean. Kudos to them for accomplishing such a miraculous feat.

(one of the biggest mistakes Hitler done if you ask me).

Good thing I didn't ask you then. It's also good nobody takes this hogwash you're spouting seriously. Let me repeat myself: the Soviet Union did not have soldiers in Poland when Germany invaded in 1939. There was not a single Russian trooper who could have therefore been shot in the back. Quit lying.

The bottom line is:
Hitler wanted to take over the world,

Well now... we have a pretty definitive answer on who here hasn't read Mein Kampf. Hitler was not interested in taking over the world. He wanted to reach the resource-rich areas of Russia to build his vision of Germania. He wanted to share Europe, as well, with the British and French, as well as Italy. That's it. That's how simple it is (and, for that matter, was).

just like any dictatorship wants.

Sweeping generalizations will get you nowhere. Not all dictatorships want to take over the world... to think so is grossly ignorant.

And just like you buddy in Iran also wants.

Or like your prime minister buddy wants with Palestine.:03:

You probably going to denie this as well.

I'm just going to point out where you're right and where you're wrong. So far, you're not doing so good as far as correct statements made are concerned.

See a person like to type long and big words.

Or, more correctly, people like me like to act like sophisticated, well-educated individuals who actually have respect for history.

Conversely, people like you have no regards whatsoever for the past, let alone civilized discussion.

But when it comes to explanation he start to spam.

Spam? Why there's no spam here. Not from this poster. But you on the otherhand... dozens of these tiny posts that say the same crap over and over again: "I'm right, these are the facts, I'm right, I'm infallible!" You use no citations or anything, you just talk and talk about how you're right. Saying you're right does not make you right. Concurrently, when other sources show that what you are saying is incorrect, it's up to you to prove them wrong. And you have not done that once in this entire thread. You disappoint.:)

[Dowly]

But Dowly, we are both baldish and tall and white and we wear boots, that msut mean we are neo nazis.

Ah, there you are. Was just thinking where the heck you were. <3 :O:

[Stealth Hunter]

Nothing regarding myself calling OTHER MEMBERS nazis just because of disagreement. Sorry your claims are false and pathetic.

Sorry, but this wasn't about you calling other members Nazis because of disagreements. It was about your piss-poor argumentation style. And Dark Fish, who I was referencing, summarized it perfectly:

Someone: "Look at this historical fact"

You: "Nazis, Germany, Hitler, I'm right."

Someone: "No you aren't, as shown by this fact"

You: "Nazis, Guilt, I'm right, Jews, Israel, Nazis, I'm right."

Someone: "Now just look at this evidence for a minute"

You: "Nazis, You didn't prove a thing, I'm right, Empty words, Nazis, I'm right, You're wrong, Nazis, I'm right, I'm right"

Someone: "You're not listening, are you?"

You: "Trolls, Nazis, I'm right, Trolls, I'm right, I'm right, Empty words, I'm right, I'm right, Trolls, I'm right, I'm right, Empty words, I'm right, oh did I mention I am right already?"

The list of posts I provided prove word by word that this IS how you argue.

[Dimitrius07]

But Dowly, we are both baldish and tall and white and we wear boots, that msut mean we are neo nazis.

So? Go to Jerusalem and see some group of rabbis burn my flag with nazi salute (no joke). They definitely don`t look like Hitler youth :DL. But that does not bother them to much.

[Dimitrius07]

The list of posts I provided prove word by word that this IS how you argue.

Show me then. Word by word