Germany to Make Forced Marriage a Crime

[Gerald]

BERLIN - Germany's government on Wednesday proposed criminalizing forced marriage, a tradition that some Muslim immigrant families impose on their children, even ones who were raised in Germany's more liberal society.

Chancellor Angela Merkel's Cabinet agreed to a proposed law that would make forced marriage in Germany a crime that can be punished with up to five years in prison.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/10/27/germany-make-forced-marriage-crime/




Note:Published October 27, 2010

[DarkFish]

:up:

There are many more muslim habits that I'd love to see prohibited. Such as halal meat. I mean, it's all fine and well what they do in their own countries, but here in the West we've got animal rights and letting animals bleed to death without anesthesia clearly violates those:nope:

One of the basic characteristics of discrimination is unequal rights for different people, so allowing muslims to violate animal rights, while the rest of us must comply, is simply discriminating our own population/culture in favour of immigrants:nope:


PS: I'm not for discrimination, on the contrary, I think everyone should have the same rights, but those same rights count for muslims as well!

[Schroeder]

Five years in prison is a joke if you ask me. In the worst case a forced marriage means two destroyed lives.:nope:

[Gerald]

I agree! On what you say, they last lines in rights for animals as it is completed damn what happens. And it is an intolerable situation for humans and animals, including low penalties of lost lives and broken families as a result. :down:

[tater]

It's racist if you don't let them do whatever they want!

;)

[Skybird]

While I agree with the decision to make slavery and enforced marriage (where males also are the victims quite often, btw.) a punishable crime, I see the need to raise pressure on many other issues as well, like mandatory sports and swimming lessons at school for girls, no separate Muslim days in swimming halls and entertainment parks, no halal (ansd kosher) slaughter, no enforced female circumcision (with girls being sent to Northern Africa for getting the torturing mutilation done).

But a big problem remaisn untalked about, and that is the high crime rate amongst juveniles from Muslim migration families, and mobbing by Muslim schoolgangs against German schoolkids. Der Spiegel also had a nice article yesterday which so far has not been translated for their international edition, so the folloiwng link is a German text. It is about the untouchable Musliom big families from Afghanistan and Lebanon who run orgnaised crime empires in Berlin and othger germna metropoles and are met by a Germans tate whose poli8ce in no way is able to meet them on euqal personnel numbers and whose jiudges sometimes have nothing better to care about than to not appearing too harsh in their enforcement of the law and the confrontation of massive organised crime.

"Das Wort 'Härte', das gefällt mir nicht." (http://www.spiegel.de/panorama/justiz/0,1518,druck-721741,00.html)

[MH]

Kashrut prohibits slaughter of an unconscious animal. Kosher slaughter, shechita, involves cutting the trachea and esophagus with a sharp, flawless knife. At the same time, the carotid arteries, which are the primary supplier of blood to the brain, are severed. The profound loss of blood and the massive drop in blood pressure render the animal insensate almost immediately. Studies done by Dr. H. H. Dukes at the Cornell University School of Veterinary Medicine indicate that the animal is unconscious within seconds of the incision.[49] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-48) According to Rabbi Barry Dov Lerner, "... kosher slaughtering is the way that Jews try to minimize the pain and fear felt by animals being killed for food."[50] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-49)
In 1978, a study incorporating EEG (electroencephalograph (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Electroencephalograph)) with electrodes surgically implanted on the skull of 17 sheep and 15 calves, and conducted by Wilhelm Schulze (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Wilhelm_Schulze_(professor_of_veterinary_medicine) ) et al. at the University of Veterinary Medicine (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/University_of_Veterinary_Medicine_Hanover) in Germany concluded that "the slaughter in the form of a ritual cut is, if carried out properly, painless in sheep and calves according to EEG recordings and the missing defensive actions" (of the animals), but that when Captive Bolt Stunning (http://www.subsim.com/wiki/Captive_bolt_pistol) (CBS) was used, which is common in normal (non-kosher) slaughtering,[51] (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/#cite_note-50) "For sheep, there were in part severe reactions both in bloodletting cut and the pain stimuli."


Stop shooting from your hips....
What about Maztot made from human blood?

Now really do you want to go into somebody else's dinner you start to scare me...
Lets forbid eating humus because it looks like **** and its offensive too(i like humus)
Do you hope each time you eat bacon that it had meaningful life and good death.
Be vegetarian at least or somthing...

The marriage thing i agree never mind if its Jewish mariage or Muslim or Buddist.

[DarkFish]

Stop shooting from your hips....
What about Maztot made from human blood?

Now really do you want to go into somebody else's dinner you start to scare me...
Lets forbid eating humus because it looks like **** and its offensive too(i like humus)I don't know maztot or humus, but they can hardly have anything to do with the topic. I'm not denying anyone any food. I'm only opposed against the way in which the ingredients are "made".
Also, as for your quote stating it's actually a pretty good way to die, read this: "after the throat is cut, large clots can form at the severed ends of the carotid arteries, leading to occlusion of the wound (or “ballooning” as it is known in the slaughtering trade). Nick Cohen wrote in the New Statesman, "Occlusions slow blood loss from the carotids and delay the decline in blood pressure that prevents the suffering brain from blacking out. In one group of calves, 62.5 per cent suffered from ballooning. Even if the slaughterer is a master of his craft and the cut to the neck is clean, blood is carried to the brain by vertebral arteries and it keeps cattle conscious of their pain.Do you hope each time you eat bacon that it had meaningful life and good death.
Be vegetarian at least or somthing...I think that everyone should try to prevent unnecessary suffering.

Let's put it in a human situation: assume you are a soldier in a war situation. An enemy sniper has you in his sights and shoots you. Would you rather die from a headshot (instant death, no pain) or from a lethal shot in your belly (painful, taking a relatively long time)? Personally I'd go for the headshot. I suppose you too?
If so, why do you support denying this to animals?

[MH]

If so, why do you support denying this to animals?

I really don't think about it too much while eating my stake or god forbid bacon.
As I just don't care what Muslim eat or what god they prey to as long as they obey rules of democracy and human rights.(which some do even in Israel)
For me is live and let me live my own life the way i want.
I remember you legitimizing hammas and now you segregate people according to food chain and talk about animal rights-kind of odd.

I don't think that forcing a person to eat pork or stunned cow will make him good westerner.

Outlawing dark ages forced marriage may save some souls but the key is education and equal opportunity while fighting terrorist and religious extremists within your or any country without mercy.

Weather stunned cow dies better death than kosher or whatever cow can be a whole 100 pages debate.

[the_tyrant]

What i really hate is how religion gives people special privileges
Why do I have to sit through Biology and Physical education while others simply skip because of their beliefs?
Next time I would say because of my beliefs(political religions count right?) I can't learn French, because its spoken by the Bolshevik. :nope:

[Dan D]

May be I am repeating myself but forced marriage has always been a criminal offense here in Germany under the existing code penal from 1870: section 240 “Coercion”, imprisonment up to 3 years.

A couple of years ago, section 240 subsection 4 was altered the way that “forced marriage” became an explicit “especially serious case” of coercion with imprisonment up to 5 years.

Now this: the law was changed again, they added a whole new section, same range of punishment: up to five years.

It is the same legal situation as before.

A typical political stunt; to address a problem by making tougher laws instead of actually doing something about it. It costs no money and it makes you look good in the eye of the voters who think that something is done about it, “you see we are tough on crime”.

I bet that something like 50 % of Germans will conclude that before this law reform “forced marriage” was fully legal in Germany and quite common in the neighbourhood. People have ideas!

I foresee that the policemen union will complain that the police will need more money and more personnel to do the extra job. They have a point because tough law is one thing but effective law enforcement is the key to lower crime rates.

A general observation: once a law has been made tougher, this won’t be changed again, even if after a couple of decades everything has turned back to normal and the hysteria is gone; because people got used to it and politicians who want to liberalise the penal code are not liked by voters, weak on crime nancies.

To give a counter example: 20 years ago they found out that the crime “rape” has a very high estimated number of unreported cases. What was done about it? Someone took some money to finance a special program that gives special teaching to female police officers and each police station now ought to have a female rape crime specialist that does the first talks with the rape victim and helps to save the evidence (don’t shower, don’t wash the underpants etc.).

Statistically this probably means that we have more (reported) rape crimes than before but I think the point is clear.

With regard to forced marriage, an alternative would have been to not touch the law and instead to spend some money for e.g. shelters for battered women because if you break up with your family you need a safe place to stay to make up your mind about how to carry on. Also, chances that affected women report of attempts of forced marriages against them would rise.

May be if extra social workers do home visits and talk to people and mediate and help women to get out, that would be a good idea, too. But then again, this costs money.

Ok, enough :=).
I know this is unpopular, “now they even spend our hard-earned tax money on immigrant problems”, but I you are honest about “forced marriage” as being a real problem and not only see as an additional chance to bash some muslims. then one should take a deeper look and ask what measures could be efficient.

To thoughen the law is many times just feel good politics. In a next step in estimated 10 years, the range of imprisonment for force marriages will be raised to up to 10 years.

You read it here first.

[Happy Times]

I really don't think about it too much while eating my stake or god forbid bacon.
As I just don't care what Muslim eat or what god they prey to as long as they obey rules of democracy and human rights.(which some do even in Israel)
For me is live and let me live my own life the way i want.
I remember you legitimizing hammas and now you segregate people according to food chain and talk about animal rights-kind of odd.

I don't think that forcing a person to eat pork or stunned cow will make him good westerner.

Outlawing dark ages forced marriage may save some souls but the key is education and equal opportunity while fighting terrorist and religious extremists within your or any country without mercy.

Weather stunned cow dies better death than kosher or whatever cow can be a whole 100 pages debate.

And animals are not people, i dont see halal or kosher slaughter that immoral.
The asian custom of ripping the skin of from an live animal i do consider a brutal practice.
In nature animals eat each other alive. So comparing to that, as long as you respect the animal you are going eat, its fine by me.

[DarkFish]

I really don't think about it too much while eating my stake or god forbid bacon.
As I just don't care what Muslim eat or what god they prey to as long as they obey rules of democracy and human rights.(which some do even in Israel)but they don't obey the rules of animal rights. Rules that us Westerners have to comply to, otherwise we get fined. But the immigrants are somehow above that. They don't have to comply to the law. Or at least not to the same law as us. Discrimination, eh?

For me is live and let me live my own life the way i want.
I remember you legitimizing hammas and now you segregate people according to food chain and talk about animal rights-kind of odd.how is this segregating people according to food chain? I'm not saying muslims may or may not eat some kinds of food. I'm just saying muslims should comply to the same law as non-muslims. Why do muslims have different rights than non-muslims?

I don't think that forcing a person to eat pork or stunned cow will make him good westerner.It's the law. It's not about being "Western" or not. But if they come to *our* countries, they should obey *our* rules, rather than have the luxury of being allowed to do what they want how they want it.

BTW, AFAIK cows generally don't get stunned, they just get a headshot with a pin. Instakill. No pain.

And animals are not people, i dont see halal or kosher slaughter that immoral.Hurting an animal isn't immoral, while hurting a human is? Strange. I always thought humans were animals as well.

In nature animals eat each other alive. So comparing to that, as long as you respect the animal you are going eat, its fine by me.Because animals aren't able to kill "humanely". So weren't we, let's say 100 years ago. So weren't muslims 100 years ago.
But now we live in an age where it's quite easy to kill animals in a "humane" way without too much trouble. Why not do so?

And otherwise, if you insist on giving people the right to *not* kill in a humane way, give that right to westerners as well instead of only to muslims.

To me, respecting an animal means treating it in a respectable manner, and that includes killing it in a respectable manner. The cow doesn't care if it dies for Allah or God or whatever supernatural being. It just cares about dying and pain. So don't come up with the crap of religious rituals that supposedly are to pay respect to the animal. A slaughtered animal doesn't care about those rituals, it only cares about its feelings.

[gimpy117]

good for germany

[Happy Times]

Hurting an animal isn't immoral, while hurting a human is? Strange. I always thought humans were animals as well.

Because animals aren't able to kill "humanely". So weren't we, let's say 100 years ago. So weren't muslims 100 years ago.
But now we live in an age where it's quite easy to kill animals in a "humane" way without too much trouble. Why not do so?

You are contradicting yourself and humanizing animals, that is very common these days but it is wrong.





To me, respecting an animal means treating it in a respectable manner, and that includes killing it in a respectable manner. The cow doesn't care if it dies for Allah or God or whatever supernatural being. It just cares about dying and pain. So don't come up with the crap of religious rituals that supposedly are to pay respect to the animal. A slaughtered animal doesn't care about those rituals, it only cares about its feelings.

Are you serious? Its feelings?
This is the reason i have had an idea that killing and slaughtering animals should be a mandatory subject in school before our children are completely detached from reality.

Have you killed, slaughtered and eaten anything, ever?

[The Third Man]

Truthfully, who cares what happens in Germany? If the country gets too upity it will be slammed. Beyond that, it, Germany, is not a power and the opinions of its citizens mean very little.

[Happy Times]

Truthfully, who cares what happens in Germany? If the country gets too upity it will be slammed. Beyond that, it, Germany, is not a power and the opinions of its citizens mean very little.

http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/7707/laughingcatd.jpg

[DarkFish]

You are contradicting yourself and humanizing animals, that is very common these days but it is wrong.Firstly, you are nitpicking on the use of the words "humanely" and "animal". Alright, I'll change it: "Because animals other than humans aren't able to kill in a painless and compassionate manner." Now I'm not "contradicting" myself anymore so please stop the nitpicking and move along.

Secondly, I'm not humanizing animals (see below). I'm just saying that we should avoid unnecessary suffering. And especially that muslims shouldn't have more rights than westerners (not less either, but also not more).

Are you serious? Its feelings?
This is the reason i have had an idea that killing and slaughtering animals should be a mandatory subject in school before our children are completely detached from reality.

Have you killed, slaughtered and eaten anything, ever?Maybe I should have used a different word. I'm not talking about human feelings, as in emotions, but about basic, primal "feelings", e.g. pain, stress or fear.
I'm very aware that animals don't have much emotions besides these primal ones, so don't you worry about that and instead start answering my questions and discussing my points;)

[Happy Times]

Firstly, you are nitpicking on the use of the words "humanely" and "animal". Alright, I'll change it: "Because animals other than humans aren't able to kill in a painless and compassionate manner." Now I'm not "contradicting" myself anymore so please stop the nitpicking and move along.

Well you still are and im not trying to nitpick as i hate it myself.:DL
.




Maybe I should have used a different word. I'm not talking about human feelings, as in emotions, but about basic, primal "feelings", e.g. pain, stress or fear.
I'm very aware that animals don't have much emotions besides these primal ones, so don't you worry about that and instead start answering my questions and discussing my points;)

Humans arent animals and the method we kill our food has this narcistic moral relevance only to us.
But as methods go the Halal/Kosher method is more painless than many hunting techniques.
So again, i dont consider it immoral.

[Sailor Steve]

Humans arent animals and the method we kill our food has this narcistic moral relevance only to us.
We aren't? We posess self-awareness and reason, but other than that exactly how are we not animals?

[The Third Man]

Too little too late.

[Happy Times]

We aren't? We posess self-awareness and reason, but other than that exactly how are we not animals?

You consider that a small difference?

[Sailor Steve]

No, it's a huge difference. But underneath it we still have the same instincts and tendencies. We may be superior animals, but animals nonetheless.

[DarkFish]

No, it's a huge difference. But underneath it we still have the same instincts and tendencies. We may be superior animals, but animals nonetheless.Exactly:up:

Humans arent animals and the method we kill our food has this narcistic moral relevance only to us.The method we kill our food has a relevance to animals too. *They* are the ones that have to suffer pain.

Now if the pain were unavoidable, I wouldn't be against it. But the pain is avoidable and thus should be avoided.

But as methods go the Halal/Kosher method is more painless than many hunting techniques.You've got a point there. But hunting is often necessary for protecting certain wildlife populations (here in the Netherlands, that's the only use of hunting that's allowed) (you could argue protecting wildlife by means of active human intervention shouldn't happen, but that's not the point of discussion here). And since it's very hard and cost-ineffective to hunt without hurting animals, the pain isn't really avoidable. So not comparable at all to bred animals that are killed in a controlled environment. Shooting a bullet through a cow's head isn't any harder or more expensive than slitting its throat and let it bleed to death.

[The Third Man]

This is a good tme for Germany to rise up and take what they wanted in 1939. it mwould be easy.

[Reece]

BERLIN - Germany's government on Wednesday proposed criminalizing forced marriage, a tradition that some Muslim immigrant families impose on their children, even ones who were raised in Germany's more liberal society.

Chancellor Angela Merkel's Cabinet agreed to a proposed law that would make forced marriage in Germany a crime that can be punished with up to five years in prison.Agree 100%:yep:

[Platapus]

What exactly is a "forced marriage" and how does that differ from an "arraigned marriage"

What are the measurable elements of the crime of "forced Marriage"?

When it comes to writing laws, the devil is in the detail. :yep:

[Betonov]

What exactly is a "forced marriage" and how does that differ from an "arraigned marriage"

What are the measurable elements of the crime of "forced Marriage"?

When it comes to writing laws, the devil is in the detail. :yep:
Unless it's aranged between the bride and the groom every arrainged marriage should be forced mariage

[Gerald]

This is a good tme for Germany to rise up and take what they wanted in 1939. it mwould be easy. Can you be more specific, we find ourselves in 2010 and not 1939 :hmm2: