A question about the Sonar Ping

[KriegsMarine]

hi my fella skippers

i have always been haunted by one question when i compare the SH4 to the venerable SHCE. That is in SHCE the frequency of DD sonar ping will change when it hits your submarine hull thus this effect will let you know you are spotted by enemy's sonar.But in SH4 i can't find this important effect,so the question is: In real life ASW,which sonar effect is realistic? SHCE or SH4?

Thanx in advance

regards, KriegsMarine:salute:

[WarlordATF]

What i have noticed about SH4 is that its more of the speed of the tone instead of a different ping sound to sound like the ping has been reflected.

If its a slower ping, ping, ping then the DD is just searching, but if you get a series of quick pings they have located you.

I'm not sure if there is another way to tell if they have found you or not, but others will share their ideas/info soon.

[Thrair]

I'm not sure if there is another way to tell if they have found you or not, but others will share their ideas/info soon.


If they speed over you and start dropping depth charges on your head, they've found you. :up: Figured I'd swear that hard-earned wisdom. :O:

[WernherVonTrapp]

What i have noticed about SH4 is that its more of the speed of the tone instead of a different ping sound to sound like the ping has been reflected.

If its a slower ping, ping, ping then the DD is just searching, but if you get a series of quick pings they have located you.

I'm not sure if there is another way to tell if they have found you or not, but others will share their ideas/info soon.That has been my experience also. A slow but steady increase in the speed (not pitch) of the pings.

[KriegsMarine]

OK, thank you my friends for your info

so could we conclude that the sonar ping feature in SHCE is not that realistic or just for the gameplay fun and SH4 is more realistic ?

i am just curious about what the real WWII sub skipper heard when the sonar ping hit the sub hull.

thanx :salute:

[WernherVonTrapp]

i am just curious about what the real WWII sub skipper heard when the sonar ping hit the sub hull.

thanx :salute:He heard, "Ping".:D

[KriegsMarine]

lol

why no reflection sound ?:woot:

[WernherVonTrapp]

lol

why no reflection sound ?:woot:That "ping" (is) the reflection sound, as it bounces off your sub.:salute:

[Armistead]

The game renders the sub going from long scale to short scale fairly well. They will still make runs on you in long scale, so don't think you're safe. If you listen, the loudness of the sound changes, the tone doesn't. If they catch you broadside on shortscale, they really have you located. Some of the most dangerous runs are when they come in from the side instead of the stern. I'm also fairly sure the better their status, they're much better at when to throw. I almost always go flank to outrun the charges, but elite escorts will throw a pattern much further in front of you.

The bad thing in game, moreso with cam and contacts off is you have no direction of ping. Not sure how sound reflects in the sub, but certainly sonar would be able to detect the direction of the ping. When you have several around, it's often difficult to know who's pinging so you can narrow your profile.

[Armistead]

That "ping" (is) the reflection sound, as it bounces off your sub.:salute:


In reality you would hear a escort pinging when using active sonar regardless if he had you. Most the time escorts didn't run the seas using active sonar, in some cases could be picked up 50nms away. A few stories of escorts doing this in the war and subs used it to track to the position. That's another failure of the game, you only hear active sonar when you're in it's cone. It's really an obvious advantage to us, we know when we hear pinging we've been located, in reality they didn't.

I assume subs could hear the return ping, knowing then they were in trouble....? I think that's what KM means and no that's not in the game, the subs return ping to the enemy. However, when you sub uses active sonar, we can hear the return ping and get distance to the target which you're aware of......maybe that's what he was referring to as a guess, the return "bong", not the active ping....

Geesh, I confuse myself on these pain meds....

.

[KriegsMarine]

thanx for your info,armistead

so in real life, sub skippers could only hear the escort's active sonar ping while could not hear the bouncing sound caused by the sub hull ?

so in SHCE the bouncing sound we hear in a sub is not realistic, right?

[NorthBeach]

He heard, "Ping".:D

:har:

[Armistead]

thanx for your info,armistead

so in real life, sub skippers could only hear the escort's active sonar ping while could not hear the bouncing sound caused by the sub hull ?

so in SHCE the bouncing sound we hear in a sub is not realistic, right?

Well, I was asking Wernher...:haha:, he's the brain.

I do know this. In reality if a ship goe's active you will hear the active ping. It doesn't have to have a target, he's searching, so you will hear the active sonar. If the active sonar hits a target, then you get a bounce back, if not, the sound wave will max out. I imagine with the equipment we have today you could pick up active sonar from hundreds of miles in the right conditions.

The return ping doe's sound different, obvious different sound waves on the return. If you're the one using active sonar, if you hit a target, you will hear the return bong in game, so yes, you will hear it if you hit a target.

I read a few stories of subs hearing active sonar from 50 plus nautical miles away. Sometimes the JP's escort did go active leading TF. I guess they thought with speed even if a sub heard them they couldn't catch up, so better to cover the front of the TF with sonar. Obvious a TF
has limited listening skills going fast on the surface. In game ships can only do one thing at a time, use sonar or listen, not both. So even if you're not being pinged, doesn't mean they're not listening. What hasn't been clarified in game to me is can a ship only listen when stationary?

What I was asking Wernher is if he knew is a sub could pick up a return bong. I assume not because the sound wave would be bouncing away, make sense. We don't hear the return in the
game, nor do I think we would. If he has us on shortscale, he's obvious getting a Ping/Bong every few seconds, but we hear only the ping.

Just like in your sub, if you send a active ping, you wait for the return ping, more of a bong....Your ping has hit the target, so it makes a different sound. Using that info you can figure distane to the target. In game it's simple, just wait for the return bong and send to TDC and you get accurate range.

I honestly don't know if subs had active sonar in WW2 that ran all the time as they do today. Obvious they wouldn't use it. The DD's did, so I assume a sub could go active...if he was dumb.

Shew..all this pinging and bonging is getting to me.

[NoGoodLandLubber]

All this talk of bongs is giving me the munchies!!! :har:

[Armistead]

Just know this, you go bonging around the Pacific, the DD's will hear it and come right to you, so be very careful about using active sonar. Sometimes I do it with cams and contacts off to get range when they're far away, but I've had escorts leave TF's from 13nms chasing my ping...

Sometimes it's useful, more than not it will slow the TF down as they go into zigs.

[WernherVonTrapp]

What I was asking Wernher is if he knew is a sub could pick up a return bong. I assume not because the sound wave would be bouncing away, make sense. We don't hear the return in the
game, nor do I think we would. If he has us on shortscale, he's obvious getting a Ping/Bong every few seconds, but we hear only the ping.

Just like in your sub, if you send a active ping, you wait for the return ping, more of a bong....Your ping has hit the target, so it makes a different sound. Using that info you can figure distane to the target. In game it's simple, just wait for the return bong and send to TDC and you get accurate range.
Well, I am only drawing an inference based on extrapolated information but, that is exactly how I presume it works too. The initial ping sent out by the DD is omnidirectional, just by the nature of the medium (water) in which it is travelling. So, it's intensity should be constant in all directions. However, I think, once it hits the sub, it loses some of that initial intensity because now it is merely a (reflection) of the original sound (or ping). It may bounce again when some of that reflection returns and hits the hull of the DD but the intensity is diminished and therefore, I'm uncertain as to whether this can be detected by passive devices on the sub. My instinct would dictate that this is totally possible but remember, like Armistead says, the sound (reflection) is now moving away from the sub. To hear it bounce off the DD involves, yet again, another reflection and an even greater loss to the original sound density. You don't actually hear it the second it hits the DD. Just like lightning and thunder, you see the lightning first, you hear it afterwards. With the DD, you can't see it hit the hull, but you may (or may not) hear it's diminished capacity after it travels back to the sub.
Ugh, my head hurts now. Sniff, sniff: Do you smell something burning?:doh:

[Dignan]

Just know this, you go bonging around the Pacific, the DD's will hear it and come right to you, so be very careful about using active sonar. Sometimes I do it with cams and contacts off to get range when they're far away, but I've had escorts leave TF's from 13nms chasing my ping...

Sometimes it's useful, more than not it will slow the TF down as they go into zigs.

Has anyone ever tried intentionally pinging a convoy from a long distance to intentionally pull the escorts away? The goal would be to then quickly move away from that location hopefully leaving the DDs searching at your last known location. I haven't tried it but was wondering if it would work.

[Armistead]

I do that all the time, just have to do it from far distances and only dive when your worried about a visual.

Right now I've found a huge convoy. I have cam and contacts off, no surface radar. I tracked as best I could with limited sonar until warship was spotted, few seconds later he was shooting, so I dived. Trying to track a convoy with the useless sonar is hard. I have several escorts around and hear pinging. This is the failure of the game, I have no idea what direction the pinging is coming from. Asking your sonarman for nearest warship is almost a joke, so I have no clue what's going on up there. They haven't found me yet, but soon will. All I can try to do is keep the convoy at a rough 90 track so I will have a chance to come up and shoot, hard to do.
In reality you sonarman could give you speed, rough distance and course, not in game. Hard to figure a course of a large zigging convoy. Waters are calm, 200ft deep...I'll be lucky to live through this.

I think a great mod would be only sonar lines show with contact off, so you would have the info a real sonarman would have.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I think a great mod would be only sonar lines show with contact off, so you would have the info a real sonarman would have.That's the way RFB plays. No contact squares. Unless, of course, you have visual or on radar. Oh yeah, and if you use the mod to add the sonar lines.

[KriegsMarine]

nice to see a simple sonar puzzle goes so far and have learned another useful attack tactics

thanx skippers:DL

[Sailor Steve]

The initial ping sent out by the DD is omnidirectional, just by the nature of the medium (water) in which it is travelling.
No, it's not.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/sonarpatterns.jpg

[Armistead]

That's the way RFB plays. No contact squares. Unless, of course, you have visual or on radar. Oh yeah, and if you use the mod to add the sonar lines.

That's the way the game plays, you don't see the contact icons until you have a visual or radar, TMO same way. I thought RFB nerfed the contact icons when they got close? What I want is no contact icons at all like contacts off, but sonar lines.

I'm not sure what Steve is saying. I would assume there's a difference between the sound and direction. Sound comes from a direction, but the sound covers a 360 pattern of degree's, you happening to hear it doesn't mean it's coming just to your direction, someone else could hear it from a different direction, but I assume Steve is saying it's directional when you're the one picking it up and I agree. That's what I hate in game, we just hear the ping, but have no idea of direction it's coming from. I'm sure inside the sub the ping sound may be rather omni sounding, but the sonarman could easily figure direction.

If a bear farts in the forest and no one hears it did it actually make a sound.....

[KriegsMarine]

nice illustration, sailor steve

could you explain the three different sonar for us?

i am curious about it

[Armistead]

That's not 3 different sonars, it illustrates the Type 147 sonar, used mostly by the Brits, US had some. It added a
horizontal search, a deadly sonar used for it's time. Used mainly for placing hedgehog patterns. Allied ships carry this in game

http://jproc.ca/sari/asd_et2.html

If you want to understand how sonar works in game you need to read this, Duc the maker of TMO explains how
sonar works with TMO
http://www.ducimus.net/sh415/ai.htm

[WernherVonTrapp]

No, it's not.

OK, I wasn't sure, and was therefore assuming that the sonar emitter was not directional during WWII. I knew it was on the newer subs. Thanks for pointing that out, and for the manner in which you did.:D:03: Everything else should still be applicable.

[aanker]

For 'realism' I ping a friendly DD as I approach a port to refuel or end my patrol. At the sonar station I usually get a return ping from them and it is a different pitch.... they pinged me back with a different pitched ping - (say that 3 times fast) I should be able to hear this ping from anywhere inside the boat but I don't.

I call this procedure, "exchanging recognition signals" even though it isn't. Friendly DD's don't seem to care what I do as long as I don't shoot, with the exception of going 'All Back Full' if we are on a collision course and I have the right of way.

The Jap pings should be different when bouncing off my hull but I haven't noticed that. I agree, SHCE did do a better job with pings that hit my boat.

Happy Hunting!

Art

[Armistead]

They're not pinging you back, you're getting a return ping because your have hit a target, more of a bong. If you were to hear them, it would be an actual ping, not a bong....:D

This is how you get distance to a target, when you hear the return sound, send to TDC, the math is done and you have a fairly accurate range.

[KriegsMarine]

so, capt aanker, you think the sonar feature in SHCE is somewhat more realistic, right?

[aanker]

so, capt aanker, you think the sonar feature in SHCE is somewhat more realistic, right?
If you are referring to the sharp ping that hits our sub, yes I do believe that. Furthermore even in the movies they make the distinction between a search pig and a hull ping that hits. I've never been on a submarine that got pinged but even though Hollywood and Wolfgang Peterson exaggerate I think their sound effects are based on fact.

For example in "Hunt for Red October" that single range ping 'ponged' the whole boat like SHCE only deeper in pitch.....

I'm surprised that ping didn't break a light bulb - (I'm kidding)

Maybe a real sub guy will chime in here with facts.

Someone up there burst by bubble but I'm going to continue to "exchange recognition signals" because they did in real life as they approached a friendly.... and I can't do it on deep frequency so I do a sonar ping.

Happy Hunting!

Art

[Armistead]

Wasn't trying to bust your bubble, keep on, just not in the game. If they were going to respond to your ping, you would get a sonar ping, your just getting your return hit. However, anything for immersion is OK with me.

[Dogfish40]

I'm jumping on this rather late but one thing that I happened to ask myself, (being a sound engineer) I wondered if you could use your active sonar to cancel their pings if you could time it right, (an incredibly difficult if not impossible proposal) BUT....lo and behold, there was a protocol to use your active sonar to confuse the enemy when they were pinging. I know that this unfortunately is not written into the game but the Sub Doctrine said something to the effect that ; if you are using the same frequency, you had the possibility of confusing the ememy's active sonar, by pinging back. I'll have to go and get that chapter and share it, it was really interesting that it could be used in a desperate situation. I am sure no one would want to start pinging away when you're trying like hell to hide, but when the chips are down....hey:ping:

D40 Cmmdr Uss Gar

[MaddogK]

Just to add my 2 cents worth,
1. You NEVER want to go 'active' on a military ship, if they have any kinda passive sonar you will give them the vector your on and all they have to do is travel down that vector pinging, and they find you.
2. Unless your closing in for a kill you will almost always want to be below the layer. The layer is the boundary between warmer surface waters and the colder 'depths', and normally where sounds from the surface are reflected back toward the surface. Below this layer sound is generally reflected down until pressure refracts is back upward. I have verified the game does indeed model this as hunting destroyers usually cant find you (unless they're right on top of you) if your running silent below the layer.
3. I haven't noticed if the game imitates a doppler shift from shipping noise or active sonar, but it is present in aircraft, I can't imagine why it wouldn't be present in the game for underwater sound (you fellow sonar guys know what I'm talking about). I'll be paying more attention to this in the future.
4. I'm not a WW2 historian but before the advent of audio processing computers sonar operators could tell what type of contact they were tracking simply by listening to the noise it made. The game does a good job of recreating this but there's always room for improvement. There is a difference between tanker noise and a carrier, I'm just not sure how accurate it is (or how accurate it really needs to be), luckily this is an area that can be modded.

This game's sonar is nowhere near the sonar in 688(i) but I can't complain, it could be alot worse. (Me- ex S-3a senso)

[WernherVonTrapp]

3. I haven't noticed if the game imitates a doppler shift from shipping noise or active sonar, but it is present in aircraft, I can't imagine why it wouldn't be present in the game for underwater sound (you fellow sonar guys know what I'm talking about). I'll be paying more attention to this in the future.

This game's sonar is nowhere near the sonar in 688(i) but I can't complain, it could be alot worse. (Me- ex S-3a senso)I believe the Dopplar Shift is inherent in all things that emit a wave form (i.e., sound, light, radar, etc.) I don't know if simulating that is even remotely possible in SHIV.

[aanker]

Changed my mind, I'm not giving up on pinging friendlies.

If I ping (let's say a friendly US DD), my reflective ping returns at about the same pitch, even at a great distance. The sound travels off and bounces back at about the same tone.

Occasionally when pinging toward a ship or group (friendly again) it seems like I get pinged back at a different pitch, sometimes it is a powerful deep toned pitch. Doppler doesn't account for this deep of a tone. I'm thinking that deep 'bong' sound I hear sometimes is a ship pinging toward me.

As a rule I don't use the active sonar at all unless I'm approaching Midway etc and then it is only for game 'immersion' purposes.

Anyone else ever get that deep "bong back" sound?

Happy Hunting!

Art

[Armistead]

The deep bong sound is your active ping hitting the ship, that is the return, not the Friendlys sending you pings, not in the game. Friendly's don't even go active on you in the game.

They will somewhat respond to you, if you're in the path you may see a TF breakup, some DD's come check you out ect. It's possible a ping may even upset the group. Still, I've been dived all around US TF and they never go active with sonar, just part of the programming so they don't attack friendly ships....

Be nice if they did, a few US subs were sunk be US DD's, some pinging the correct code. Once a enemy sub attacked a US ship and sunk it. The area was a no shoot area for US DD's unless exact confirmation because of all the US subs in the area. Another US DD went searching for the jap sub, but found an american sub. The american sub was pinging the correct code over and over, but the US DD ignored it and attacked over and over why the sub kept pinging the correct ID code. The US DD finally sunk the US sub, even painted a ship kill on it's bridge that it got a JP sub. I'm sure they felt stupid when they found out it was a US sub and they killed them all. They were so gung ho on getting revenge that they ignored protocal.
Can't imagine how the guys felt in the sub, getting blasted by your own why giving yourself away pinging the correct ID code.

[aanker]

OK Armistead, I appreciate your patience - you are saying my reflective return ping I hear can be any pitch? My sound goes out at one tone pitch and sometimes it comes back after hitting its target at that same toned pitch but other times it comes back at a lower toned pitch. Why is that, depending on what type of target my ping hit? If I don't hit anything nothing bounces back of course.

If a ship hull is like a drum for example, and a big bass drum has a deeper pitch than a snare drum, is that what I'm hearing coming back? i.e. - I missed the DD I'm trying to ping that would bounce back at a higher pitch and hit a big CV behind him instead? That's my bong?

Bummer the geniuses that made SH4 didn't have the, err, budget, to model this recognition signal thing right. Too bad, one more thing I can cross off my mental list I gave them credit for incorporating into the game..... lol - just kidding fellas.

Happy Hunting!

Art

[Dignan]

I think the farther away the target, the lower the pitch of the return bong. If you ping a ship that is only a few hundred yards away, the return will be very similar sounding to your own ping.

[Diopos]

I'm not at all sure that the echo of "ping" can have a lower frequency component than the original "ping"... :hmmm: (talking Real Physics now, not Ubi Physics :D)

.

[Armistead]

They're only two different tones per say, the high pitch you send out and the duller bong which is your active hitting the target. As stated, the active pitch can change speed as they go from longscale to short scale, but the return bong remains the same. If you look in the game sound files you will find softer and louder sonar pings, but the same pitch, so they do go that far.

If you're hearing the high active pinging from Friendlys, possibly your mod setup, but I don't think it was included in stock or most mods. I've been all around Friendly TF's submerged and never once have they gone active on me.

Obvious the return bong sound depends on how close the target hit was, far away it could take 30 seconds or more. To get range to your target, you wait for the return and send data the second you get it for range.