Annoyed with visuals in TMO RSRD

[Bubblehead1980]

So apparently RSRD gives its escorts and warships some super vision.

December 18, 1941 off Wake Island, found a task force with four heavy cruisers but can never get close because they spot me LONG before my watch spots them.I mean subs even in great daytime conditions were tough to spot on surface.Too early for them to have radar.

Same with a Type A/B in Feb 1944, spotted me at 7 miles away during daylight on surface, but I got to 2400 yards for a night surface attack.Seems my deckwatch is blind and they have super vision, aggravating because cant get close to the Wake Island TF.

[Armistead]

It's almost like they have surface radar, they shouldn't be able to see you, but come right at you from 10-12nms away, but if you turn and run, they'll head back. Thats more like radar, except I don't think they had it this early.

BTW, what does this group consist of, time, ect...

[Ducimus]

Units max visual distance is based off of what type of unit it is in TMO.

Hard numbers off the top of my head that i usually don't spout out (cause its like a major spoiler)

- Merchants max visual distance is meant to be 6,000 meters.
- Escorts (DD/ DE), max visual distance is meant to be 9,000 meters.
- Capital warships, (BB, CVE, CV, etc) is intended to be.. offhand.. i think about 12 or 14 000 meters, i forget. Probably 12.
- Planes have a massive visual distance that would make you crap your pants. Around 30 KM if memory serves.

Note i said, "meant to be" or "intended". The max visual range specified in the data/library/AI_Visuals.dat isn't the range they actually see at. Due to various environmental effects you actually have to overcompensate to get the desired daytime detection radius. For example, if I want a tin can to be able to detect me at 9,000 meters if im doing something stupid like crusing at 15 knots with my broadsides to him, then I may have to set the detection radius up to 10,000 meters, 10,500, or even 11,000 in order to illicit a response at 9,000 meters. night time is a different story, Max distance, i believe is hardcoded to be 60% of what it is in the day time if memory serves correctly. And even then, detection range will vary depending on envirmental variables like wind and fog, both in day or night. This is why detection can vary so much. I tended to adjust max detection range based on clear/calm weather.

( This is why enviormental mods screw up the AI detection settings. Just FYI. )

If RSRD changes the visuals, or the enviormnment, i have no idea. I'm just saying what *I* set them at.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I don't know the exact distances you're referring to here Bubblehead but, that's not necessarily inaccurate or unrealistic. Japanese optics and night engagement training was superior to ours, early on. I've heard accounts by some historian that Japanese optics (day or night) even sometimes outranged U.S. radar equipped vessels.

[tater]

There is an AI_Visual_Sensors_RSRDC.dat in RSRDC. Perhaps it's not tweaked to the latest TMO for compliance.

[tater]

http://www.filefront.com/17359843/TMO_Visuals_for_RSRDC.rar

A more TMO compliant version. The CA and BB sensors are longer range than TMO has, but that might be for the battles in game to actually work at reasonable distances.

I reset the fishing, merchant, and escort values in line with what I saw in the TMO 2.0 AI_Sensors.dat. Install after RSRDC.

[Bubblehead1980]

http://www.filefront.com/17359843/TMO_Visuals_for_RSRDC.rar

A more TMO compliant version. The CA and BB sensors are longer range than TMO has, but that might be for the battles in game to actually work at reasonable distances.

I reset the fishing, merchant, and escort values in line with what I saw in the TMO 2.0 AI_Sensors.dat. Install after RSRDC.


Thanks much tater Wonder if the escorts were alerted by the cruisers? Just sucks bc this basically makes it impossible to move in on a TF in the pre radar days. Ill load it up and see if its just the escorts on the flanks spotting me.

You know anything about RSRD's sonar for the TYPE A/B? They have no active sonar in early 1944 and thus are pretty ineffective.

[Bubblehead1980]

I don't know the exact distances you're referring to here Bubblehead but, that's not necessarily inaccurate or unrealistic. Japanese optics and night engagement training was superior to ours, early on. I've heard accounts by some historian that Japanese optics (day or night) even sometimes outranged U.S. radar equipped vessels.


Thing is some subs like the Barb attacked cruisers and even carriers on the surface at night, got close too, talking less than 2,000 yards and were not spotted.Subs were very difficult to see, even with great optics.Hell Barb and Tang(I know of, sure others did) attacked convoys with radar equipped escorts and were able to get in close since IJN radar was not exactly the best.

Wish things like this were reflected in say RSRD. I think the effective range for IJN radar on escorts should be 4,000 yards...this wont let you get too close but within distance.If I knew how, I'd set it up but I do not nor do I have time to learn, I barely get to play as it is.

This was just super aggravating because I'd find the Wake Island forces but coulndt get close bc they would spot me long before I could.Should be other way around to be honest. Not sure where Lurker is these days, havent seen him post, but think RSRD needs some upgrading.

[Bubblehead1980]

Units max visual distance is based off of what type of unit it is in TMO.

Hard numbers off the top of my head that i usually don't spout out (cause its like a major spoiler)

- Merchants max visual distance is meant to be 6,000 meters.
- Escorts (DD/ DE), max visual distance is meant to be 9,000 meters.
- Capital warships, (BB, CVE, CV, etc) is intended to be.. offhand.. i think about 12 or 14 000 meters, i forget. Probably 12.
- Planes have a massive visual distance that would make you crap your pants. Around 30 KM if memory serves.

Note i said, "meant to be" or "intended". The max visual range specified in the data/library/AI_Visuals.dat isn't the range they actually see at. Due to various environmental effects you actually have to overcompensate to get the desired daytime detection radius. For example, if I want a tin can to be able to detect me at 9,000 meters if im doing something stupid like crusing at 15 knots with my broadsides to him, then I may have to set the detection radius up to 10,000 meters, 10,500, or even 11,000 in order to illicit a response at 9,000 meters. night time is a different story, Max distance, i believe is hardcoded to be 60% of what it is in the day time if memory serves correctly. And even then, detection range will vary depending on envirmental variables like wind and fog, both in day or night. This is why detection can vary so much. I tended to adjust max detection range based on clear/calm weather.

( This is why enviormental mods screw up the AI detection settings. Just FYI. )

If RSRD changes the visuals, or the enviormnment, i have no idea. I'm just saying what *I* set them at.

Duci, your settings are fine, RSRD changes them, going to try Taters new patch, hopefully itll work this issue out.

[Bubblehead1980]

It's almost like they have surface radar, they shouldn't be able to see you, but come right at you from 10-12nms away, but if you turn and run, they'll head back. Thats more like radar, except I don't think they had it this early.

BTW, what does this group consist of, time, ect...

Well Group 1 was four heavy cruisers(believe all were Furataka's but never got close enough for positive idea, just saw them from 7,000 yards via attack scope, close as I could get before they made a zig and moved away.Also had DD's which would spot me and force me to dive and evade, spotted me from miles away, long before I could, which is why i made this post, annoying.

Second Group had DD's, cruisers and large merchants...invasion force.

[Armistead]

Anyone explain how sun and moonlight work in the game? More moon than sun, just trying to figure out more dawn sightings. The other day all night at a distance, same distance with the sun peek and spotted. Yes, that is norm, just wondering how the ranges are set.

Doe's it really differ if it's a 1/2 moon over a full moon, ect.

It does seem like flares really work if they get near you. A DD was doing a zig search torwards me, going medium, but never saw me, about 5000 yards. He shot a flare that was really close to me, same distance, and wham started shooting, scoring hits. I hit flank as he gave chase, flare died, he stopped shooting and went back to a search pattern.

[tater]

Visuals all need to be tightly tweaked to the supermod, it's all connected.

There are some errors in cfg dates for some of the groups in RSRDC I found working on JMM. That could explain it.

OK, those are easy to fix. Some of the sensor start dates are based on the idea that the unit will not appear before said date. Trouble is a single cfg date problem, and they are crippled. Fix inbound.

[tater]

http://www.filefront.com/17359898/Fixed_CD_sonar_RSRDC.rar

[Bubblehead1980]

Anyone explain how sun and moonlight work in the game? More moon than sun, just trying to figure out more dawn sightings. The other day all night at a distance, same distance with the sun peek and spotted. Yes, that is norm, just wondering how the ranges are set.

Doe's it really differ if it's a 1/2 moon over a full moon, ect.

It does seem like flares really work if they get near you. A DD was doing a zig search torwards me, going medium, but never saw me, about 5000 yards. He shot a flare that was really close to me, same distance, and wham started shooting, scoring hits. I hit flank as he gave chase, flare died, he stopped shooting and went back to a search pattern.

Moonlight absolutely makes a difference in how they see you at night, so does light fog(you can get away with a lot actually if light fog is out at night)

The flares aka star shells do help them.I nearly crapped myself south of Truk one time, pulled off a great surface attack in 43 on a big convoy, was making a slow turn away after firing fish so could head away from convoy when torpedos hit, well the wakes were spotted befor ethey hit, they still hit and sank 3 ships, but an escort fired a star shell right over me, sudenly huge splashes all around, i went to flank speed and zigging, some close shells, as i got out from under the star shell, his fire was not so accurate.

[Bubblehead1980]

Thanks Tater, will let you know how they work out.Thanks again sir.

Edit:Nice work Tater, escorts didnt spot me till managed to get just at 5 miles, problem is now my own deck watch is blind, DD's didnt see me right away but when I tried to close so could track the cruisers, I had to get within 5 miles and the escorts spotted me.Could you possibly take a look at that? I could see them at about 5.5 miles, I personally could see the TF in binoculars but my blind a** crew couldnt and thus map contacts not showing up. Need crews vision to be about 7 miles or 6.5 even.Otherwise pre radar is kind of unplayable right now, sucks.

[Armistead]

Moonlight absolutely makes a difference in how they see you at night, so does light fog(you can get away with a lot actually if light fog is out at night)

The flares aka star shells do help them.I nearly crapped myself south of Truk one time, pulled off a great surface attack in 43 on a big convoy, was making a slow turn away after firing fish so could head away from convoy when torpedos hit, well the wakes were spotted befor ethey hit, they still hit and sank 3 ships, but an escort fired a star shell right over me, sudenly huge splashes all around, i went to flank speed and zigging, some close shells, as i got out from under the star shell, his fire was not so accurate.

Yep, but doe's the difference in moon size matter...you know, is bigger worse, not better.

[tater]

Thanks Tater, will let you know how they work out.Thanks again sir.

Edit:Nice work Tater, escorts didnt spot me till managed to get just at 5 miles, problem is now my own deck watch is blind, DD's didnt see me right away but when I tried to close so could track the cruisers, I had to get within 5 miles and the escorts spotted me.Could you possibly take a look at that? I could see them at about 5.5 miles, I personally could see the TF in binoculars but my blind a** crew couldnt and thus map contacts not showing up. Need crews vision to be about 7 miles or 6.5 even.Otherwise pre radar is kind of unplayable right now, sucks.

Disable the mod, then open the one dat in the mod with S3D and look at the values. This is an easy place to start doing stuff yourself :)

Change the ca and bb ranges far lower maybe 14000

I'll look later right now typing on iPhone, LOL.

[Ducimus]

Wonder if the escorts were alerted by the cruisers?

Yup. When one AI unit detects you, it tells everyone else your whereabouts.

[tater]

Viewing distance in RL is a function of height above the water, visibility conditions, crew (both number on watch, and quality), and optics. IJN capital ships typically had numerous large binoculars on the pagoda constantly watching the horizon.

The max range to the horizon should be on the order of 25,000 yards or so. The trouble is that the game doesn't deal with visibility properly. If you want capital ships in SH4 to duke it out at reasonable ranges, they need to detect each other.

I suppose in retrospect the best solution might be a special radar that cannot detect a sub, but CAN detect a large ship. Downside is that it's be unaffected by day/night/weather.

In game crew quality will matter, as well as the generic AI settings that ducimus has in TMO. Might be interesting to see what my RSRDC patches I just posted do combined with "easier AI." I know I dashed in at flank in a desperate attempt to get a firing solution on Yamato in RSRDC with RFB, and it was near dusk but still quite light out (sun was still up). I dove at ~5000 yards as I was getting pretty spooked by all those guns (I was watching the gun director on top to see if she spotted me).

I was not detected.

[WernherVonTrapp]

Thing is some subs like the Barb attacked cruisers and even carriers on the surface at night, got close too, talking less than 2,000 yards and were not spotted.Subs were very difficult to see, even with great optics.Hell Barb and Tang(I know of, sure others did) attacked convoys with radar equipped escorts and were able to get in close since IJN radar was not exactly the best.

Wish things like this were reflected in say RSRD. I think the effective range for IJN radar on escorts should be 4,000 yards...this wont let you get too close but within distance.If I knew how, I'd set it up but I do not nor do I have time to learn, I barely get to play as it is.

This was just super aggravating because I'd find the Wake Island forces but coulndt get close bc they would spot me long before I could.Should be other way around to be honest. Not sure where Lurker is these days, havent seen him post, but think RSRD needs some upgrading.Yup, you're right, I even read a particular account in my WWII Radar History book (can't remember which sub) of a surface attack against a convoy escorted by at least 1 IJN DD that had radar. The lack of a radar PPI prevented the DD from zeroing in on the attacking sub that marauded through their ranks sinking the merchants. Sub got away clean too, still on the surface.:yep:

[Bubblehead1980]

Yup, you're right, I even read a particular account in my WWII Radar History book (can't remember which sub) of a surface attack against a convoy escorted by at least 1 IJN DD that had radar. The lack of a radar PPI prevented the DD from zeroing in on the attacking sub that marauded through their ranks sinking the merchants. Sub got away clean too, still on the surface.:yep:


I'm sure plenty did this but Tang, Barb and Seahorse all come to mind.Oh yea the Trepang under Roy Davenport pulled it off also.Davenport won the MOH.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I'm sure plenty did this but Tang, Barb and Seahorse all come to mind.Oh yea the Trepang under Roy Davenport pulled it off also.Davenport won the MOH.I wonder what the weather conditions were like during those attacks. I can't recall from the account in my book but, would be interesting to see if it were a new moon, fog, rain or whatever else.