When do we really get to "soak the rich"?

[The Third Man]

When do we really get to "soak the rich"? If your income was over $160,041, you made it to the top 5 percent and paid 60.63 percent of all federal income taxes. Think about that for a minute. The top 5 percent of taxpayers paid a greater percentage of all federal income taxes — 60.63 percent — than the bottom 90 percent who paid 28.78 percent.



The real problem is not the distribution of the tax burden and the fact that we all want to shift that burden to somebody who makes more than we do. The problem is that the cost of government is too high.


Which is another fact that most of the electorate is realizing.

http://www.twincities.com/opinion/ci_16220864?nclick_check=1

[tater]

Agreed. Cut spending. Start with "mandatory" spending. All spending should be contingent on revenue.

I don't have a huge problem with paying a large sum in taxes. I do, however, have a problem with paying huge amounts in tax, then have the SOBs in Washington say "that's not enough!" then spending MORE.

Step 1: Any remaining "stimulus" pork should be cancelled. Or say 90%. They can pick the most "stimulating" 10% to keep. Chose well, we'll be paying attention.

Step 2: freeze all government spending at FY 2000 level plus the inflation rate (nearly zero in that period). Defense being constitutionally required can be maintained. Perhaps specific programs could have higher spending, but only with a 2/3 majority of both houses in agreement.

Step 3: balanced budget Amendment. Entitlements need to be on the table, too, or it's meaningless. Yes, that means cutting SS and Medicare at some level (higher retirement age, etc). Tough crap.

[August]

Tough crap.

You'll never get my vote.

[The Third Man]

You realize that we are currently working without any budget whatsoever. Another reason to change a congress which doesn't listen to the people they represent.

[tater]

You'll never get my vote.

Anyone against putting entitlements on the table is the problem. They will bankrupt us.

Phasing in a retirement age increase is the easy way to cut costs, and is 100% fair. It's not like the COnstitution demands that X% of everyone's life is to be leisure.

Anyone peeved by the use of "tough"... well, tough. I used it on purpose, because every time anyone mentioned "the third rail" all rational debate ends. The electorate indeed needs to grow a pair, and be tough.

But, hey, if you prefer insolvency or hyper-inflation, good luck with that. I'll be secure regardless of SS, myself, I'm only thinking of the rest of society. SOME safety net is better than a meltdown and NO safety net.

[mookiemookie]

Entitlements should be considered just as cuts in defense spending should be. If they're serious about balancing the budget, there can be no sacred cows.

[SteamWake]

Well they did decide to not to vote on the current budget.

They were scared and November is comming up, no need to rock the boat with silly things like a budget right now.

[August]

I'll be secure regardless of SS

So you think.

What have you done to make yourself so immune to national insolvency?

[The Third Man]

Entitlements should be considered just as cuts in defense spending should be. If they're serious about balancing the budget, there can be no sacred cows.

Except that defense is discretionary by law, and social programs aren't discretionary by law.

To enjoy your idea social programs should be made discretionary as defense is discretionary.

[tater]

Entitlements should be considered just as cuts in defense spending should be. If they're serious about balancing the budget, there can be no sacred cows.


The military is maybe 20% of the budget. It could certainly be cut, but it is at least a legitimate expense, unlike SS etc.

So cut away, but if we want to hold the line, basically 2/3 of cuts need to be entitlements.

As for insulation from insolvency having some offshore investments and gold is about it if you don't count real estate, guns, and ammo :) . Not enough, but better than someone depending on SS. Assuming the country doesn't fail we'll be fine without it.

[seanobrgp]

The military is maybe 20% of the budget. It could certainly be cut, but it is at least a legitimate expense, unlike SS etc.

So cut away, but if we want to hold the line, basically 2/3 of cuts need to be entitlements.

As for insulation from insolvency having some offshore investments and gold is about it if you don't count real estate, guns, and ammo :) . Not enough, but better than someone depending on SS. Assuming the country doesn't fail we'll be fine without it.

Social Security may be many things, but it is not an illegitimate expense; with respect, to even imply that suggests you are simply projecting your ideological beliefs rather than taking a moment to consider the issue.

The individualist argument against Social Security is at least consistent -- give as little as possible, expect nothing in return -- but I can't agree that it would translate to effective or positive policy, at least not now. According to The Century Foundation (http://www.socsec.org/feature.asp?issueid=%7B0A45711A-0BF9-46D2-A74E-F47450A624E4%7D), 40 percent of our country's elderly population were kept out of poverty because of Social Security in 1999; another 10 percent were in poverty despite their benefits, and I believe those two figures have remained constant since. Eliminating or significantly reducing the program could thrust anywhere from 13 to 20 million people beneath the poverty line, to say nothing of those who would have their retirements impacted by an amelioration in supplementary income. Assuming that the economy continues to linger for the foreseeable future, it's simply not possible that all of these people could re-enter the labor force to finance their retirement as it is ongoing (it never will be), and that ignores turning this into legislation a majority of politicians could coalesce behind.

I'm far from a supporter of his, but I'm inclined to agree with Robert Reich's argument that the question of Social Security -- which will not be forced to reduce its payments until 2036 in a worst case scenario -- is resolvable with a few adjustments. The Urban Institute wrote an excellent summation on the subject earlier this year; ultimately some combination of an increase in the retirement age (68 or 70, to better coincide with today's longer lifespan), raising the tax rate by a percentage point to 13, and an examination of the Cost Of Living Adjustment will have to be undertaken. I don't welcome the idea of any tax increase, but in the absence of a superior alternative, it's the only fiscally responsible, conservative thing to do if we are committed to retaining Social Security as it exists today. We also have to increase investment and wealth management education, encourage personal prudence, and emphasize the costs of an ideal retirement. In 2003, 34 percent of people on Social Security relied on it for 90 percent or more of their income; if we can reduce that statistic by half or more, then we may have cause to delicately explore how to reduce the benefits Social Security is paying out.

You may disagree with the definition of retirement as a universal or Constitutional right, but it's an eventuality I think we should try to facilitate for everyone, and the implication that some should not be deserving of the privilege is rather draconian. As a society, we need to be better than that. As a Republican, I believe we should strive to find conservative, logical solutions to these challenges, not pretend they don't exist or aren't worthy of our concern because they violate some sacrosanct ideological prism. That's what the Republican Party is truly about.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

If I become rich, overnight, won't I pay as much as the current rich? And that is somehow unfair?

[SteamWake]

Social Security may be many things, but it is not an illegitimate expense; with respect, to even imply that suggests you are simply projecting your ideological beliefs rather than taking a moment to consider the issue.

The individualist argument against Social Security is at least consistent -- give as little as possible, expect nothing in return -- but I can't agree that it would translate to effective or positive policy, at least not now. According to The Century Foundation (http://www.socsec.org/feature.asp?issueid=%7B0A45711A-0BF9-46D2-A74E-F47450A624E4%7D), 40 percent of our country's elderly population were kept out of poverty because of Social Security in 1999; another 10 percent were in poverty despite their benefits, and I believe those two figures have remained constant since. Eliminating or significantly reducing the program could thrust anywhere from 13 to 20 million people beneath the poverty line, to say nothing of those who would have their retirements impacted by an amelioration in supplementary income. Assuming that the economy continues to linger for the foreseeable future, it's simply not possible that all of these people could re-enter the labor force to finance their retirement as it is ongoing (it never will be), and that ignores turning this into legislation a majority of politicians could coalesce behind.

I'm far from a supporter of his, but I'm inclined to agree with Robert Reich's argument that the question of Social Security -- which will not be forced to reduce its payments until 2036 in a worst case scenario -- is resolvable with a few adjustments. The Urban Institute wrote an excellent summation on the subject earlier this year; ultimately some combination of an increase in the retirement age (68 or 70, to better coincide with today's longer lifespan), raising the tax rate by a percentage point to 13, and an examination of the Cost Of Living Adjustment will have to be undertaken. I don't welcome the idea of any tax increase, but in the absence of a superior alternative, it's the only fiscally responsible, conservative thing to do if we are committed to retaining Social Security as it exists today. We also have to increase investment and wealth management education, encourage personal prudence, and emphasize the costs of an ideal retirement. In 2003, 34 percent of people on Social Security relied on it for 90 percent or more of their income; if we can reduce that statistic by half or more, then we may have cause to delicately explore how to reduce the benefits Social Security is paying out.

You may disagree with the definition of retirement as a universal or Constitutional right, but it's an eventuality I think we should try to facilitate for everyone, and the implication that some should not be deserving of the privilege is rather draconian. As a society, we need to be better than that. As a Republican, I believe we should strive to find conservative, logical solutions to these challenges, not pretend they don't exist or aren't worthy of our concern because they violate some sacrosanct ideological prism. That's what the Republican Party is truly about.

:o

Thats one hellua first post right there.

[gimpy117]

its funny how the top tax rates are close to the lowest in history, yet the rich see any increase as "gouging them". During WWII and into the cold war the rich paid anywhere from about 91%-70%. Whats even more funny is that our economy was much more vibrant then, then it is now.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

http://whatwepayfor.com/

seems relevant

[seanobrgp]

:o

Thats one hellua first post right there.

Apologies if I came across too strongly -- that certainly wasn't my intent.

The issue of entitlement spending is a conundrum. I think the Republican Party's reluctance to outline a credible reform plan is an admission on their part that, while the rhetoric is proving successful in the immediate term, the majority of Americans are unwilling to accept a disruption in the benefits they currently or intend to receive upon eligibility. Any discussion of how we can bring these programs back to fiscal solvency and reign in the deficit has to respect that boundary -- or make a credible effort to preserve as much of the safety net as possible.

What's most disconcerting to me is the culture of expectation and ignorance that we're seeing play out. There appears to be a large subset of our society that has been taught to want all things with none of their obligations; to accept grandiose assurances, but not the grandiose costs that go with them. Separating myself from ideology, the succinct truth is this: if we want to guarantee an individuals' retirement, health care for the elderly and infirm, and provide for the destitute and unfortunate, then we must accept that these initiatives will soon be unsupportable at our current level of taxation. Social Security is rectifiable; Medicare, with an unfunded liability of $38 trillion? Probably not. If we want progress on this issue, we first have to convince the electorate that our present path is unsustainable and a re-examination of entitlement spending is in our collective self-interest to prevent some dire consequences.

We have to be accountable as a nation, and maybe that has to start with what type of society we aspire to be. If the majority of Americans want comprehensive amenities resembling those you would find in Europe, it will require their marginal tax rates or an additional VAT to comfortably support them, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. Whatever the outcome, the time to start reform is now -- but impoverishing a third to half of the elderly population is never going to a tenable prospect.

[TLAM Strike]

The military is maybe 20% of the budget. It could certainly be cut, but it is at least a legitimate expense, unlike SS etc.

Try telling that to my dad. He is 61, a disabled vet on SSID (which places him below the poverty line for income) with two bad hips and two bad knees.

All his medical care, which is not much since they have denied him operations to fix his hips and knees so he can go back to work (yes his still wants to work at 61!) is curiosity of the VA (he has never used his medicaid/care).

As for cutting the military he has ideas on how to cut it to zero... :hmmm:

[Takeda Shingen]

Apologies if I came across too strongly -- that certainly wasn't my intent.

The issue of entitlement spending is a conundrum. I think the Republican Party's reluctance to outline a credible reform plan is an admission on their part that, while the rhetoric is proving successful in the immediate term, the majority of Americans are unwilling to accept a disruption in the benefits they currently or intend to receive upon eligibility. Any discussion of how we can bring these programs back to fiscal solvency and reign in the deficit has to respect that boundary -- or make a credible effort to preserve as much of the safety net as possible.

What's most disconcerting to me is the culture of expectation and ignorance that we're seeing play out. There appears to be a large subset of our society that has been taught to want all things with none of their obligations; to accept grandiose assurances, but not the grandiose costs that go with them. Separating myself from ideology, the succinct truth is this: if we want to guarantee an individuals' retirement, health care for the elderly and infirm, and provide for the destitute and unfortunate, then we must accept that these initiatives will soon be unsupportable at our current level of taxation. Social Security is rectifiable; Medicare, with an unfunded liability of $38 trillion? Probably not. If we want progress on this issue, we first have to convince the electorate that our present path is unsustainable and a re-examination of entitlement spending is in our collective self-interest to prevent some dire consequences.

We have to be accountable as a nation, and maybe that has to start with what type of society we aspire to be. If the majority of Americans want comprehensive amenities resembling those you would find in Europe, it will require their marginal tax rates or an additional VAT to comfortably support them, and we shouldn't pretend otherwise. Whatever the outcome, the time to start reform is now -- but impoverishing a third to half of the elderly population is never going to a tenable prospect.

I don't wish to sidetrack you, but I assume from your age that you are in college. May I ask what your major is? I do not agree with all of your points, but your prose is excellent and your logic is well-supported. I wish that more of my students wrote half as well.

[seanobrgp]

I don't wish to sidetrack you, but I assume from your age that you are in college. May I ask what your major is? I do not agree with all of your points, but your prose is excellent and your logic is well-supported. I wish that more of my students wrote half as well.

Computer science -- the major of people who can't communicate, so I appreciate the compliment.

I thought I could contribute a different perspective to the discussion, being a college-aged Republican when others of my demographic are overwhelmingly liberal or apathetic, but also because I reside in one of the country's most liberal states. I've received the odd askew glance before, yet it's forced me to try to learn as much as possible to combat the echo chamber, and that's a positive.

[mookiemookie]

Computer science -- the major of people who can't communicate, so I appreciate the compliment.

I thought I could contribute a different perspective to the discussion, being a college-aged Republican when others of my demographic are overwhelmingly liberal or apathetic, but also because I reside in one of the country's most liberal states. I've received the odd askew glance before, yet it's forced me to try to learn as much as possible to combat the echo chamber, and that's a positive.

I'd say you're doing quite well. Kudos to you on actually analyzing an issue instead of falling back on the intellectually lazy talking points.

[Skybird]

Every coin has two sides.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-10-01/almost-3-000-millionaires-claimed-jobless-benefits-in-2008-irs-data-show.html

Social parasites, rich parasites - both suck other people'S blood.

Five years ago, I bought the flat I now live in, because I like to be here. Back then, in Germany there was a financial aid that gave you back 1^0% of property value that you bought, over 8 years (it was called Eigenheimzulage). The law was about to end at the time I bought the appartement, but I had the option to sign in for it, since the deal took place some months before the law ended. I decided against using it, because at that time it all looked okay and as if I could afford to not take the money and run, and I did not wish to need to say Thanks to a state that I feel no love or loyalty for, and I wondered why I should expect the public to compensate me for parts of my personal financial deals.

Compared to some others, I certainly do not look clever to say No to catching some thousand bucks for free, and I am probably no clever businessman at all. However, I do not need to say thanks to anyone over my deal, except my parents who helped me a bit with financing it and payed a quarter of it, but family issues are not the issue here. My parents also were in doubt about taking that tax money and thus owing loyalty to the state.

But what really differs me from people like those described in the article, is my lack of shamelessness and greed. And that is a quality of mine for which I will never apologize. Those people are parasites, and jjust having the löegal possibility to ripp off the public and the taxpayer, doe snot mean that ethically it is okay, or that you have to do it just becasue you can do it. If I can say No, and refuse to taske taxmoney, than they can, too. But they don'T, and that is the difference between them and me.

There are not only social wellfare parasites. Many rich people and business people are parasites as well. Plus all those clever smartheads being of so creative in their tax declarations and finding any legal hole in the lawcode to hide. Especially big companies being a problem here.

We have too many expections from the laws, too many special cases being listed, too many ways of tricking out the system. The damage from that is calculated to go into the high billions per year, in Germany. I cannot imagine that it is any different in any Western country.

When you identify a hole in the laws, and a flw in the general design, this must not be understood as an invitation. You are always free to decide NOT to abuse it.

[SteamWake]

Apologies if I came across too strongly -- that certainly wasn't my intent.

Not its just that pepole dont usually drop in a several paragraph half page post in a political discussion thread as their first post is all.

It is usually "Why dont this mod werk" :03:

[Onkel Neal]

Social Security may be many things, but it is not an illegitimate expense; with respect, to even imply that suggests you are simply projecting your ideological beliefs rather than taking a moment to consider the issue.


That's for sure. We paid into SS so that money should be earmarked for retirees.

But if they want to return the $$ I paid in over 30 years, with interest, I would gladly take it.

[Tribesman]

Every coin has two sides......
That post is probably worthy of a case study.
Such crazines is quite interesting.
So one would be beholden to be loyal to a state if one availed of financial measures regarding purchase of property....yet one would not be beholden of a state to a state if one availed of financial measures regarding purchase of property.


There was once this fellow who refused to walk on the footpath as his personal taxes did not cover the cost of buiding and maintaining the footpath, he did not want to be a parasite.

He got run over by a car on a road that he had not personaly purchased, a minute portion of his contributions to the state may possibly have paid for some of the water that the fireman used to hose his remains off the tarmac, he didn't get reimbursed for any portion of that water.

[gimpy117]

Skybird, I completely agree. There are many people that use the tax code to skirt around paying what they should. Write off's here- write off's there....
It is you're social responsibility to pay taxes, and to not use the system.
But I like how you said how even if you are legally entitled to money from the state, you don't have to take it! :up:

[August]

That's for sure. We paid into SS so that money should be earmarked for retirees.

But if they want to return the $$ I paid in over 30 years, with interest, I would gladly take it.


Exactly. Social Security wasn't just another government entitlement program paid for from the general fund, but rather a specific tax instituted for a specific purpose. To consider delaying and/or reducing payments is, at least to me, like the contemplating the violation of a contract. If they welsh on us I say we ought to be able sue them for non payment and begin to seize their assets like any other deadbeat.

What makes me so unwilling to compromise on this subject is the knowledge that SS wouldn't be in trouble if they hadn't repeatedly raided the fund over the years, and worse, that they could still fix the problem if they just stopped wasting billions every year on pork barrel boondoggles and foreign aid.

[Tribesman]

Gimpy, do you pay equal tax on every cent you earn or are you using the tax code?
Availing of tax breaks is not skirting the system to avoid paying what is due, it is simply paying what is due.
Skybird may think he is some sort of wonder for not taking the first time buyers grant he was entitled to but unless he pays 45% on all his income, pays sales tax on every item he ever purchases and pays full tax on the money his parents stumped up for the purchase then he is just another "parasite" in the system.

[mookiemookie]

Two words: Screw 'em

http://www.americanprogress.org/issues/2010/09/img/getting_priorities_straight_change.jpg