Germany still paying WW1 reparations - is this possible?

[vedrand]

Today I was astonished to see in "Bild" (for those who don't know, it's the biggest german yellow press paper, something like the German version of the sun). Anyhow they claim, that in this years german government's budget, 70 million € go to France as the last rate for the WW1 war reparations. Now, I know the source is not really trustworthy but still the question reamins, is this true?

Source (german only):
http://www.bild.de/BILD/politik/2010/09/28/ende-1-weltkrieg/am-sonntag-endet-fuer-deutschland-der-1-weltkrieg.html

[Takeda Shingen]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=175522

[vedrand]

All right, wouldn't have thought it here already. Sorry for the double topic.

[Herr-Berbunch]

Other thread aside, yes still possible. Iirc the UK only made its last payment to the US for our WWII debt a couple of years ago, and we were the winners (or so some say!). War is very expensive, both at the time and for the following generations, on all sides, so let's not do it anymore :nope:

[Rilder]

War is very expensive, both at the time and for the following generations, on all sides, so let's not do it anymore :nope:

Unfortunately we are a pretty violent race and we only have access to one planet so everyone with their own belief and opinion has to share and sometimes that doesn't work to well. :rotfl2:

[gimpy117]

you would have thought that france would have forgave that treaty long ago. :o

[Herr-Berbunch]

Meh, if only they'd asked politely for France :03:

[bookworm_020]

They could buy Greece for a few euros and a BMW......

[Diopos]

Meh, if only they'd asked politely for France :03:

Hitler thought he actually did! The panzers went in for sightseeing!

:D

.

[Diopos]

deleted ...

[Herr-Berbunch]

Unfortunately we are a pretty violent race and we only have access to one planet so everyone with their own belief and opinion has to share and sometimes that doesn't work to well. :rotfl2:

Violent race? Who are you to call us violent? Why don't you come here and say that? I'll soon wipe that :rotfl2: off your face...





:O:

[Zachstar]

As I understand it arent the payments largely symbolic now? Going towards memorials and the like?

By treaty they have to pay but I doubt the allied nations just snatch the money and say "Ok now get out of here"

[Stealth Hunter]

Possible? Completely. War reparations have to be paid off. At least, that's how it's been since the League of Nations was formed (and carried over following the creation of the United Nations). The Weimar Republic took full responsibility as the successor state of the Kaiserreich, but they never paid them off. The Third Reich maintained the same responsibility, they never paid them off. It's carried all the way over to the modern era with the Federal Republic of Germany- although I have to wonder who exactly is still keeping the financial records on this issue (it's been over 90 years since the Great War ended). On that note, who is seriously going to argue to the European Union's presiding members that this ridiculous sum of money has to be exchanged between these respective governments?

The Romanians tried to claim something similar on the Germans just a short while back over a trade agreement made between the Fascist-leaning government under Carol I and the Third Reich (which totals, today, to be nearly 18.8 billion Euros).

http://www.bucharestherald.ro/economics/40-economics/14761-germany-owes-romania-188-billion-euro-authorities-do-nothing-to-recover-the-debt

Although, that's a trade agreement. It has nothing to do with reparations, hence the Germans don't have to pay it. And they have openly stated they have no intention of doing so (good for you, Germany). The particular instance I'm speaking of here parallels what the Greeks tried to pull back in February (they tried to claim reparations for "war crimes", yet they cited no cases whatsoever to substantiate their claims' validity).

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-26/greece-says-german-war-crimes-spat-won-t-derail-deficit-efforts.html

It was just an attempt on their part to get money from the economic powerhouse of the European Union (because of their inflation troubles), and it failed epically. Not any different with the Romanians.

[Onkel Neal]

Other thread aside, yes still possible. Iirc the UK only made its last payment to the US for our WWII debt a couple of years ago, and we were the winners (or so some say!). War is very expensive, both at the time and for the following generations, on all sides, so let's not do it anymore :nope:


Hmmm... the US should have been paying Britain for going up against the Nazi from day 1, and France as well.

And don't get me started on Russia. :shifty:

[antikristuseke]

Modern day russia is only resposible for all the good the soviet union did, but not repsonsible for any of the atrocities.

[TLAM Strike]

Hmmm... the US should have been paying Britain for going up against the Nazi from day 1, and France as well.
Well more like from day 270...

And don't get me started on Russia. :shifty:Yes we don't want to open the whole can of worms as to which side their reparations should be paid too...

[Diopos]

...
The particular instance I'm speaking of here parallels what the Greeks tried to pull back in February (they tried to claim reparations for "war crimes", yet they cited no cases whatsoever to substantiate their claims' validity).

http://www.businessweek.com/news/2010-02-26/greece-says-german-war-crimes-spat-won-t-derail-deficit-efforts.html

It was just an attempt on their part to get money from the economic powerhouse of the European Union (because of their inflation troubles), and it failed epically. Not any different with the Romanians.

Ah those sleazy greeks trying once more to steal money from Germany. A bit more greek bashing, eh!
Anyway, here goes:

1. “ … (they tried to claim reparations for "war crimes", yet they cited no cases whatsoever to substantiate their claims' validity).” What are you saying, exactly here? That there were not any “war crimes” committed or that we didn’t do the “paperwork” correctly?

2. In the Link you quote, there is no reference on the invalidity of greek claims. Therefore I must conclude that this is your own opinion, which is based on what exactly?

3. According to your quoted link:
“…Germany’s Constitutional Court ruled in March 2006 it didn’t have to pay compensation to individuals seeking damages over war crimes committed during World War II. Germany paid 115 million deutsche marks ($80 million) to Greek victims of Nazi crimes under a 1960 treaty, in addition to funds paid out to victims of forced labor under the Third Reich, Peschke said.”
In regards to the 1960 treaty and from an official document of the Federal Ministry of Finance titled “ Compensation forNational Socialist injustice” (Link (http://www.bundesfinanzministerium.de/nn_4394/DE/Wirtschaft__und__Verwaltung/Finanz__und__Wirtschaftspolitik/Vermoegensrecht__und__Entschaedigungen/Kriegsfolgen__und__Wiedergutmachung/002,templateId=raw,property=publicationFile.pdf)), I quote (my underlining):
Page 5, § 1.1.:: ‘It was clear even directly after the end of the Second World War that legislation governing compensation for the wrongs committed by the National Socialist regime was required. Particularly affected were those who had suffered National Socialist oppressive measures due to their political opposition to National Socialism or on the grounds of race, religion or ideology. Legislation for these persons was therefore drawn up at an early stage by the occupying powers, the municipalities and since their establishment the Länder (federal states).”
Page 9, § 1.10.: “From 1959 to 1964, comprehensive agreements were concluded with Austria, Belgium, Britain, Denmark, France, Greece, Italy, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Sweden and Switzerland for the benefit of nationals of these countries who had suffered National Socialist persecution. On the basis of these agreements, the Federal Republic of Germany made available a total of EUR 496.46 million (DM 971 million). It fell to the governments of the countries concerned to distribute this financing amongst the victims. The comprehensive agreements have now been closed. The individual countries are expected to have distributed the funds made available to them (cf. Annex 9).”

As you can see, Germany regards this form of reparation as confined to individuals suffering under the Nazi regime. Compensation of individuals can be part of a full reparation plan but not the sole component of it. There are other issues to be considered also as, infrastructure destructed by the occupying force, pillage and theft of assets (in the case of Greece include ancient artifacts, too, in this category), confiscation/deprivation of goods and commodities leading to inability of sustenance of life or function of economy in massive scale (ie food shortages leading to thousands deaths by starvation, terra-inflation) etc. Or simply put, damage inflicted above the individual/personal level. I am not familiar with the legal terms but I hope you understand what I mean.

4. The case of the “forced loan”: (Link (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/9852054/Delegation-Statements), page 123-124, Delegation Statements, Washington Conference on Holocaust-Era Assets). This is a really a good one. Greece was forced to lend its occupiers. According to the link, economic experts of the former Germany Embassy in Athens drafted a document, in 1945, titled “Economic Administration in German-occupied Greece” to be referenced for “future use”. They estimated the German debt to Greece to be 476 million German marks. As a loan it is not even part of war reparations, it was simply not paid back in full.


At this stage I will not quote estimates on the level of appropriate reparations relevant to destruction caused to the country and its people by the German occupation. I will hold one reservation though. Greece and Germany have signed various documents, deals and agreements either on a bilateral basis or within other frameworks (ie NATO, EU). There maybe secret clauses in said documents where this issue has been dealt with. This is the only case in which the German stance on the issue is validated. Otherwise the subject is still open. And as you said in your post: “War reparations have to be paid off.” The fact that this issue has not been settled (one way or another) after the german reunification is a stigma. Less for Germany though, much more for the Greek governments who failed miserably in seeking a fair solution or closure of this issue.

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