Energy efficient bulbs affecting your health?

[GoldenRivet]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HDdiIlZAkmk


thoughts?

I've done my own research on this concept and drawn my own conclusion. I have done what uncle sam insisted and filled my house with these things... but this report has me second guessing that choice.

[Jimbuna]

Not used in the buna household because SWMBO is adamant they give off yellow instead of white light.

[SteamWake]

CFL's are safe unless you break one. Then you have to call out a HAZMAT team practically. They contain vaporized mercury :oops:

About CFL efficency and lamp life. There are HUGE differences from one manufacturer to the next. A cheap chinese knock off lamps life may actually a little less than a regular incandescent with a nasty fall of of lumen output in the first 100 hours or som (some nearly 50%). A good quality CFL will leas years and only fall off some 20-30% output over its lifetime. Like everything else you get what you pay for.

As to the CRI (Color Rendering Index) fluorescents are typically closer to the blue green than the red spectrum. Although they can be had up to nearly 5,000K color temprature (nearly white light).

But honestly CFL's are a passing fad soon to be upstaged by LEDs.

About the EMI or electromagnetic 'waves' try this little trick. Unplug your amplified speakers, now touch it to your fingertip. That bzzzzt you hear is 60 cycle 'waves' coupled through your body. Its everywhere cannot be avoided and been that way for decades. The long term effects are as yet really un known but it seems to be begnine.

I'm all over this topic as its a part of what I do for a living.

Any questions I'm the expert ;)

[GoldenRivet]

I have noticed they take about 3 to 5 seconds from switch ON to light ON :shifty:

[GoldenRivet]

my opinion is that $40ish in energy savings over the life of the bulb is not significant.

when you consider that in 130+ years the incandescent light bulb has undergone almost NO changes... that means they got it right the first time.

when LED lights are priced more in my budget i'll be placing them all over the house.

[SteamWake]

I have noticed they take about 3 to 5 seconds from switch ON to light ON :shifty:

More like 1/2 a second just seems longer ;).

Your used to instant (1/30th of a second) on for incandescents.

Yet again another place where LED's are superior.

[GoldenRivet]

More like 1/2 a second just seems longer ;).

Your used to instant (1/30th of a second) on for incandescents.

Yet again another place where LED's are superior.

I walked into my kitchen last night and hit the switch and had time to walk 7 feet to my refrigerator before the first of three lights came on... :hmmm:

I didnt know i was that fast.

EDIT:

in fairness to these little squiggly bulbs... this only happens when they have spend an hour or so OFF

[SteamWake]

I walked into my kitchen last night and hit the switch and had time to walk 7 feet to my refrigerator before the first of three lights came on... :hmmm:

I didnt know i was that fast.

EDIT:

in fairness to these little squiggly bulbs... this only happens when they have spend an hour or so OFF

Yea some of the cheaper lamps at their end of life cycle will have a little trouble striking at times. The gasses in the tube arent just as energetic as they once were. Bet the same one comes on first every time. :up:

[tater]

I only use these in limited circumstances.. My goal is pretty much MORE likght, not cost. So an old fixture takes a 60W bulb... I put the biggest CFL that will fit, maybe I get 150W worth of light.

On my low-voltage track lighting, I have been using "halogena" bulbs (halogen/xenon) sinc ethe 35W bulb makes as much like as a 50W. That means I can put more fixtures on the track. I have an LED, too (4W), and if was not so damn blue, I'd replace 'em all with LEDs (my transformers are 300W, so the lower the bulbs, the more I can run on one circuit).

[STEED]

They give me headaches and I'm not alone on that one.

[SteamWake]

I only use these in limited circumstances.. My goal is pretty much MORE likght, not cost. So an old fixture takes a 60W bulb... I put the biggest CFL that will fit, maybe I get 150W worth of light.

On my low-voltage track lighting, I have been using "halogena" bulbs (halogen/xenon) sinc ethe 35W bulb makes as much like as a 50W. That means I can put more fixtures on the track. I have an LED, too (4W), and if was not so damn blue, I'd replace 'em all with LEDs (my transformers are 300W, so the lower the bulbs, the more I can run on one circuit).

LEDs are available in a wide spectrum of colors. Not just red blue white but mixtures of everything in between.

Actually the LED you have is probably a pretty good CRI but your so used to the 'warm' red end of the spectrum they now seem blue to you.

[tater]

LEDs are available in a wide spectrum of colors. Not just red blue white but mixtures of everything in between.

Actually the LED you have is probably a pretty good CRI but your so used to the 'warm' red end of the spectrum they now seem blue to you.

No, it's quite blue. I usually buy broad spectrum bulbs, so most regular bulbs in the house are "Reveal" types (which indeed look blue next to "soft white" (I've experimented ;) ) but are in fact nice.

[Sammi79]

Hmmmm. No, sorry really sounds like absolute *expletive* I'm afraid. 'Dirty electricity' indeed - a smooth sine wave at 50Hz - Well all mains power in the UK is exactly that : a 50Hz sine wave pushing and pulling 240v so practically every electrical cable that runs from the mains socket creates that field to a greater or lesser extent depending on the dampening effect from the cable sheath. I believe in most of Europe it is 60Hz but at 110v or thereabouts? I don't know what the specs are in the US, but I assume after that video that it runs at 50Hz. Ever since the invention of radio, signals of varying frequencies have been passing through living things.

People live under/near power lines carrying 45,000+v at this same frequency which create huge EMF fields (like you know if you listen to the radio in your car and you drive under one), try taking that little 'magic box' under a pylon and see what it says.

Yes mercury is dangerous, so is flouride in your toothpaste, care should be taken when disposing of these bulbs as with batteries, microchips, microwave ovens, refridgerators and many, many other readily available consumer products. In reality unless you regularly eat lightbulbs or whole tubes of toothpaste you are not going to come to any harm!

Ultra Violet radiation is possibly the only real concern you have here, and that's only because people demand specific 'colours' of light - "I want my light to replicate daylight"... well daylight contains UV radiation. The colours achieved by CFLs are a product of phosphor compounds on the inside of the tube, they can be modified to produce any wavelengths we desire, and can be designed to nearly completely eradicate the emission of UV frequencies (only it won't be a nice blue-white daylight shade)

Don't let reports like that fool you, It seems to me sincerely to be some kind of media scare tactic for which the reason escapes me - possibly the makers of incandescant bulbs are running at a loss? or possibly because the people who control the people who produce these broadcasts want you to be scared, add it to all the terror etc.

[SteamWake]

Just an aside. The last commercial plant (in north america) producing incandescent lamps closed this year (many jobs lost).

As to the motivation about this report? I'm going to presume that A:Scare tactics draw in viewers and B:The push is on to move to LED.

[XabbaRus]

can't say I have had any issues with them and we have them all over our house.In fact we have no conventional bulbs left.

I'm wondering if some of the issues are more psychological than real.

[Skybird]

I knew that the elektromagnetic fields produced by these bulbs can be up too 200 times as intense in energy than those of regular lightbulbs of same brightness (that'S why you shoulds keep your distance to them), but that it also is a different quality of electromagnetic field, was new to me.

The headache thing is known since longer, although for political and business reasons it still is officially denied.

MS, asthma and blood sugar also was knew for me, I mean that it can have so immense effects.

Don'T like these things too muich, I still find their loight colour annoying. Their warm-white simply is not warm-white with a sufficient degree of waves transporting the colour red, but it makes colours shifting towards the green and spectrum. I have two such things in use, but only in the cellar and in a corridor.

The future is LED, and LEDs in spots replacing halogen spots with reflectors are already really usable, the good ones have a warmwhite light like you know it from Halogen light, and are of comparable brightness. These ones also do not distort the colopur spectrum as massively as energy saving bulbs do (turning red into brown and yellow into green, even the wellknown, expensive brands). Problem is they are extremely expensive, still. LED-collections in normal lightbulbs still are not really convincing: not bright enough. But its getting better. LEDs in torchlights: beats every normal lightbulbed torchlight. General rule: you do not need a dozen LEDs, you only need one LED - but that must be a real good one, then it is good light colour (not that terrible cold blue-white), and shining brightness.

Light quality is life quality, and very important to me in order to feel comfortable and "at home". I do not accept compromises in light, at least not in my living room and kitchen. If halogen would not be available anymore and standard lightbulbs also gone, I would cry and spend the money needed for good LEDs - but no energy efficient bulbs.

[SteamWake]

"Quality" of EM field... LOL that term just cracks me up. Just conjurs up an image of two hams "Yea your getting out but you sound like crap".

As I said in an earlier post that pepole have been living within RF fields for decades. They have been living in EM fields since the beginning of time.

Its all over the spectrum. Shall I post a picture of my Oscope set for a low voltage and show you the noise? Its so prevelant that its actually hard to block it out. You know that psssssssshhhhh you hear when you tune your TV to an unused channel? EM/RF signals. Oh and while were at it that TV of yours? Try holding the plug of an amplified speaker up to one sometime. You want to talk about strong EMI fields. "Dont sit too close or your hurt your eyes" my mother used to say.

Now there is no question that a strong RF field can cause damage it is after all how a microwave works. But there is strong RF fields in the order of microvolts and theres strong RF fields of 600watts or more in the radar range. Yes I know there different units of measure but trying to explain that would take too long. In a nutshell the EMI/RF field within a microwave is 10's of thousands time more powerfull than stray emi/rf from a compact fluorescent. Hell there are wall chargers that put out more noise than CFLs.

Remember all that hoopla about schools and homes being built adjacent HV transmission lines? Where has that gone?

Oh and I wanted to add about the headache thing. It is quite true that all fluroescent lamps 'strobe' one in good working order should strobe so fast you never notice. But some pepole are subsectible to strobing effects. Remember those epelipsy warnings on video games? So sure I believe that some pepole can get headaches from poor lighting. Properly working 'quality' flourescent lamps with the proper 'quality' ballast should strobe so quickly that even the most sensative amongst us would not be effected by it. Notice the word quality. There is a lot of cheap crap out there. The industry is driven by being 'inexpensive'. But once more addressing strobing this is where LEDs are superior ... but only with a 'quality' driver.

[Sammi79]

As to the motivation about this report? I'm going to presume that A:Scare tactics draw in viewers and B:The push is on to move to LED.

The future is LED

Sold!

[Zachstar]

Oh my geez not this again.

I have heard it all.

"It creates an EM field that will harm you"

BULL! You have any idea how about EM a body will absorb every day? Every Bird in Orbit overhead, Every TV and Radio station every mobile comm.

The only way an EM field at such low wattage can harm you is if you are RIGHT against it. I mean head to bulb or ANY device. For that matter. My computer creates high levels of EM that is why computers are required to be in cases. Not for heath but because the EM can interfere with radio.

"It creates tons of UV light that will cook you"

That is blowing a small issue WAY out of proportion.

LAWs do not allow bulbs to be sold in the US if the UV exposure over time is dangerous. CFLs let loose a LITTLE UV that does not get absorbed and reemitted from the phosphor layer. This is a direct attribute to the efficiency of a bulb in my opinion. Better the layer better the bulb less the tiny UV. Also to counter this further a new layer is being added to absord UV and STORE the energy to turn the bulb into sort of a glow in the dark emergency light in the case of a power failure.

Also a little extra UV wont kill you. And may help save you in fact as UV is harmful to microbial life.

Now all this is starting to get Moot anyway. LEDs will be the big item to have in 2012 beyond anyway.

[SteamWake]

UV light in order of highest emmisions to least (omitting UV lamps of course and HID sources)

Halogen (some call it xenon)
Fluorescent
Incandescent
LED (depends on which but all are tight specturm)

You can actually physically tell the Halogen is a high emitter at this end of the spectrum because they get so hot they will remove your fingerprints if you grab one thats been on a while. Dont ask :haha:

[Skybird]

A constant energetic level fluctuating at a rythmic sinus wave is not the same like a random patterns of extreme spikes. Yes, electromagnetism is all around us, inside of us, we even radiate ourselves, our bodies do. But that means nothing relating the issue here.

Radiation issues get both overestimated by some (greens and health hysterics), and underestimated by others (conservatives, lobbyists, lifestyle surfers). Technical, artificial radiation sources often do not compare in intensity, spiking behavior and "quality" (regular or irregular frequency forming, I do not know the tehcncial terms in English), and consequences from them can show up soon - or 20 years later, in form of cancer for example.

It's good advise to play it careful, and not handling radiationsources, from cellphones to electrosmog, too carelessly. It is energy you are dealing with, and possibly this enegry can effect and change your body's organic tissue or your body'S natural electromagnetic field and the neural system, and brain. So don't become hysteric, but also do noit become careless or unaware, uncautious.

The US military btw has intrdocued a helmet, I read some days ago, that builds a magnetic field thnbat should relax the brain of the soldier wearing it, helping him to form better decisions under stress, and as a cautionary measure against combat stress. I wonder if stuff like this really is a good idea. We know too little, and the brain'S functioning, storage od data, and the forming of mind, emotion and intellect still is a mystery. I would hate to let a lobby group with special interest manipulate my brain'S electromagnetic field and electric activity. especially when it is the military. It has used troops as white mice too often in the past.

[SteamWake]

The US military btw has intrdocued a helmet, I read some days ago, that builds a magnetic field thnbat should relax the brain of the soldier wearing it, .

Oh man that is soooo 60's... :har:

[Skybird]

I must correct myself: not magnetic fields but ultrasound is being used, I recalled it wrong. Ultrasound is said to be 5 times as precise in stimulating targetted brain areas. It is not only meant for relaxation, but also for activating "virtues" found to be useful in combat.

[XabbaRus]

OK that they can introduce harmonics into the supply, well a lot of things do that. Anything connected into the supply can affect its frequency.

That's why you have devices that smooth out the supply, either capcitors or certain kinds of motors.

I'm studying electrical engineering at the moment and will have to go digging through my books but I think this is a bit of scare mongering.

[SteamWake]

You want to see harmonics take a look at variable frequency drives...

Ive seen them 'melt' neutrals.

The newer ones are alot better but those old SCR chopping VFD's were a nightmare.

Another big contributer to harmonics are PC's yup good old computers. Get enough of them on one phase and you will see why they design systems with 200% neutrals.

[XabbaRus]

I found this whilst looking at it.

http://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/?p=6897

I'm looking for other stuff. Though from what I am reading a lot of what skybird and this yotube video claims is scare tactics.

[Gerald]

If you want to avoid being adversely affected by its frequency, as the gentlemen above have outlined, there are safer alternatives now a past, we are exposed to various types of radiation / frequencies on a daily basis and some are much more 'dangerous' one ordinary light bulb,low energy is a examples of small radiation

[tater]

Yep. Looks like she's a crackpot. Typical. She can tour with Wakefield.

[Alex]

I've done my own research on this concept and drawn my own conclusion. I have done what uncle sam insisted and filled my house with these things... but this report has me second guessing that choice.

With all due respect : :o :damn:
It looks pretty much like some (you're not the only one at least, GR) Americans have an unwavering faith in "Uncle Sam". :-?
I don't mean that's bad !
But you guys have a brain too, you know. And you don't have to take what your government/economy/anyone tells you for granted.

I personally have an unwavering faith in my own ideas.

thoughts?

Next time, don't forget to do your research first.

[XabbaRus]

Well the Electromagnetic Field is a non starter. It drops of very quickly with range so given your light bulb is going to be a good 5ft away from you and given the relatively small amount of power going through it you aren't going to get much electromagnetic field.

I'll have to look in my books to find the formulas for working out how much Electromagnetic Field is generated but it will be negligable.

You think how much of a field you need to generate to attract a lump of metal over a distance of a few feet. Strong and stronger than that generated by a CFL.

[DarkFish]

I believe in most of Europe it is 60Hz but at 110v or thereabouts? I don't know what the specs are in the US, but I assume after that video that it runs at 50Hz.Actually, it's quite the other way around;) In the largest part of Europe 230V RMS (gives about 325V peak to peak) at 50Hz is used, while in the US 120V RMS (170V peak to peak) at 60Hz is used.

Ever since the invention of radio, signals of varying frequencies have been passing through living things.Ever since Life, signals of varying frequencies have been passing through living things;)
And generally speaking, electromagnetic waves can't do much damage. What do you think light is for example?
Only highly energetic ionizing radiation can really cause damage.

[SteamWake]

Actually, it's quite the other way around;) In the largest part of Europe 230V RMS (gives about 325V peak to peak) at 50Hz is used, while in the US 120V RMS (170V peak to peak) at 60Hz is used.

Ever since Life, signals of varying frequencies have been passing through living things;)
And generally speaking, electromagnetic waves can't do much damage. What do you think light is for example?
Only highly energetic ionizing radiation can really cause damage.

Theres an echo in here ;)

[Sammi79]

Actually, it's quite the other way around;) In the largest part of Europe 230V RMS (gives about 325V peak to peak) at 50Hz is used, while in the US 120V RMS (170V peak to peak) at 60Hz is used.

Ever since Life, signals of varying frequencies have been passing through living things;)
And generally speaking, electromagnetic waves can't do much damage. What do you think light is for example?
Only highly energetic ionizing radiation can really cause damage.

Thankyou DF for your correction! :up: Electromagnetic high frequency signals, SHF+EHF (2Ghz+) do have measurable effects on living cells - notably microwaves who's wavelength is equivalent to the size of a water molecule. Wireless digital technology uses 2.4Ghz to beam the data and it has been observed that prolonged short range exposure causes an increase in temperature in the affected tissue. There is also some argument as to wether it can cause nuclear damage to cells, splitting chromosomes etc.. which could be a cause of abnormal cell behaviour I.e tumours. However compared to Ionizing atomic nuclear radiation (which are charged particles emmited from atomic nuclei as opposed to photons) the effects are insignificant.

Visible light occurs in the spectrum at frequencies of about 10^14 Hz above
microwaves, Infra Red and all man made data signals. Ultra Violet occurs directly above visible light, then X-rays then gamma rays at 10^20 Hz. However these gamma rays are not to be confused with nuclear gamma radiation, which is particularly damaging to living tissue.

[Spoon 11th]

(gives about 325V peak to peak)
It's actually 650V peak to peak.

Thankyou DF for your correction! :up: Electromagnetic high frequency signals, SHF+EHF (2Ghz+) do have measurable effects on living cells - notably microwaves who's wavelength is equivalent to the size of a water molecule. Wireless digital technology uses 2.4Ghz to beam the data and it has been observed that prolonged short range exposure causes an increase in temperature in the affected tissue. There is also some argument as to wether it can cause nuclear damage to cells, splitting chromosomes etc.. which could be a cause of abnormal cell behaviour I.e tumours. However compared to Ionizing atomic nuclear radiation (which are charged particles emmited from atomic nuclei as opposed to photons) the effects are insignificant.

Visible light occurs in the spectrum at frequencies of about 10^14 Hz above
microwaves, Infra Red and all man made data signals. Ultra Violet occurs directly above visible light, then X-rays then gamma rays at 10^20 Hz. However these gamma rays are not to be confused with nuclear gamma radiation, which is particularly damaging to living tissue.
What these people claim, who are trying to sell these products to people who think they are hypersensitive to electricity, is that ..."scientists consider to be the most "biologically active" electromagnetic frequeicies (4kHz to 100kHz)"

http://www.dirtyelectricity.ca/stetzer_filters.htm

I feel vely solly for the submariners who are constantly bombarded with very low frequency radio transmissions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlf

[Alex]

Let's conclude saying new technologies (coming from the oh so beloved US of A most of the time) are ways to keep control over worldwide demography.

*sudden roaring of thousands of chain saw startups*

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/872/79578233.jpg

[Sammi79]

http://www.scribd.com/doc/34963043/Demystifying-the-Emf-Myth

^ this site references the most recent studies in the possible harmful effects of low frequency EMF and concludes from the results that the evidence for harmfull effects in all cases is inconclusive. It also references the proven effects of high energy, high frequency EMF like those that come from your mobile phone.

[DarkFish]

It's actually 650V peak to peak.Oops:oops: I just multiplied the value by √2, without taking into account that a sine goes down too:oops:

Anyway, I'm not in the slightest way scared of electromagnetic radiation. Maybe if you'd put an EM source under your pillow, you'd get health problems after a few years of sleeping. But most people don't have EM sources under their pillows.

I'm studying electrical engineering at the momentYou too?:DL Where?

[SteamWake]

American distribution is like this

All 60 Hz

(Common) Transmission lines 1,2470V 3 phase

Stepped down to 277/480 (3 phase) often for commercial buildings lighting and equipment.

Then stepped down again to 120/240V (single phase common for homes and smaller facilites) or 120/208V (3 phase common for commercial buildings receptacles and light equipment.

Very rarely is 12470 brought into a building but it is not unheard of. Also 4,000V is sometimes used for large commercial facilitys (Sawmills, Hospitals, etc.)

Oh and its the square root of 3 for three phase but thats only for calculating current. It is still commonly refered to 208V 3 Phase but the calculation for current is (wattage) / (voltage x square root of 3)=I or current.

I commonly will just round off the numbers for quick calculations. 480V = 831, 208V = 360

[frau kaleun]

So far I think the effect on my health has been nothing but positive.

I put three of those bulbs in the 3-bulb light fixture in my dinette area on Dec 1 2007 and I haven't had to replace a single one of them yet.

This has greatly reduced my chances of falling off a chair and breaking my neck whilst changing the bulbs in the dinette light fixture. :O:

[SteamWake]

So far I think the effect on my health has been nothing but positive.

I put three of those bulbs in the 3-bulb light fixture in my dinette area on Dec 1 2007 and I haven't had to replace a single one of them yet.

This has greatly reduced my chances of falling off a chair and breaking my neck whilst changing the bulbs in the dinette light fixture. :O:

She raises a very valid point. This is what we in the trade call the 'maintinance factor'. A very important consideration when installing lighting up above 10' or so.

Again LEDs win this concept as well as their lamp life is far superior to any other source. In fact with proper current limiting more often than not the driver (power supply) will go bad before the LEDs do.

[frau kaleun]

She raises a very valid point. This is what we in the trade call the 'maintinance factor'. A very important consideration when installing lighting up above 10' or so.

Again LEDs win this concept as well as their lamp life is far superior to any other source. In fact with proper current limiting more often than not the driver (power supply) will go bad before the LEDs do.

Yep, that's certainly been the primary consideration for me. I haven't noticed any disconcerting changes in quality of light or anything else.

The ones in my dinette were the first ones I bought and I made a very big mental note of the date when I changed them because I wanted to see if they really did last that much longer. When I had the old-style incandescents in there, I was changing one out every couple of months, it seems. Being the light that is "centermost" in my apartment, it's the one that is on the most - it lights up not only the dinette, but the kitchen, the hall, and enough of the living room that if it's on I don't need much in the way of additional lighting in any of those areas for most everyday activities.

Edit: hit submit too soon, lol. I was going to add that since then I've put the new bulbs in all the ceiling (or otherwise PITA) fixtures. And as old bulbs burn out in lamps and such they get replaced with the new ones as well. I don't think I've changed any of them yet since switching.

[SteamWake]

Well you chose well.

Where these compact fluorescents really shine (sorry couldent resisist) is in applications where they are turned on and left on for long periods of time. Good for porch lights or applications like yours. For hall closets pantrys etc. where you flick the light on get what you want and flick the light off your better off with incandescents.

Believe it or not frequently turning on and off a CFL for short periods of time can lead to a substantial shortening of their life and a dramatic fall off of light out put of up to and beyond 60%.

Oh and once again LEDs outperform in this aspect as well, they dont care how long their on and can even be 'strobed' without impacting their lumen output or lamp life.