Attacking Convoys at night.. ON THE SURFACE??

[fastfed]

Reading some books now, I notice many of the sailors went on the surface at night to attack convoys.. Even to the point of sailing in between them with 400 meters apart.. (Thats DAMN CLOSE)

But it seems historically this was accurate.. Even to the point where they would be VERY close to an escort and fade into the darkness ( 1000 meters )

I never really tried this in the game (GWX3) but I assume that if I tried, I would be destroyed within seconds, even by the merchant ships.


So I was wondering.. Its just safe to dive only in this game and try to get a good vantage point from the very get go?

THANKS

[Gerald]

Reading some books now, I notice many of the sailors went on the surface at night to attack convoys.. Even to the point of sailing in between them with 400 meters apart.. (Thats DAMN CLOSE)

But it seems historically this was accurate.. Even to the point where they would be VERY close to an escort and fade into the darkness ( 1000 meters )

I never really tried this in the game (GWX3) but I assume that if I tried, I would be destroyed within seconds, even by the merchant ships.


So I was wondering.. Its just safe to dive only in this game and try to get a good vantage point from the very get go?

THANKS I like to go down to the "p" but situations are changing fast and flexibility is necessary

[K-61]

Last night I got into "perfect" attack position on a convoy and then suddenly one escort made an unexpected and random sweep in my direction. I had to go deep and thus my attack was foiled. It happens. I got away, but I also didn't sink anything.

I do occasionally make a surfaced attack at night, but only before radar becomes available. You can run "decks awash" in calmer weather, use slower speed and present a minimal aspect to enemy ships in order to remain stealthy. You have to fire your torpedoes and immediately begin egress from the area. In real life the U-boats did get into and amongst the convoy, but eventually the Allies figured this out and developed tactics to catch those boats, such as immediately implementing rehearsed escort maneuvers and firing illumination rounds. Still, the game does seem to make it harder than it appears in real life, especially with all of those damned searchlights on merchantmen. I have installed the mod to remove them, not to make it easier but because I don't believe that merchantmen would give away their positions by turning on bright lights.

Once radar is deployed, the only effective way to attack convoys is to submerge ahead of them on the beam and wait for them to cross your tubes.

[Abd_von_Mumit]

Try night surface attacks. They surely DO work, even with GWX (of course only in early years of the war), and they will probably give you much more thrill than regular submerge-shoot-escape tactics.

When standing on the bridge in thick fog, when you know there are loads of enemies everywhere around you and you may be surprised by a destroyer appearing out of nowhere... and that you have a fat tanker 400 metres at port... feels GOOD. :88)

Missing all shots because your hands tremble in a perfect-shot situation feels even better. :rotfl2:

[ralphnader23]

It's what they did in Das Boot. They were even going at flank. I guess it also gets your crash dive off to a good start when you are already going 18 knots...

[Snestorm]

By my own restrictions:
Dark night = Surface attacks only.
Moonlit nights, dusk, dawn, and daylight are for submerged attacks.
On rare occasions, the weather may allow for a daykight surface attack.

The night surface attack in early war is do-able. The "ship spotted" thing, every minute though, can make one crazy. Exiting on the surface, after delivering a perfect attack, is usualy impossable without being detected. Unless you have used your stern tube(s).
(I define "perfect" as about 1000 meters.)

[JokerOfFate]

I've done this a few times and it works well, but only on small convoys.

[papa_smurf]

This only really works in the early years of the war before escort ships were equipped with radar. Although this did not immediately deter U-boat captains from surface attacks, as Doenitz did not believe the allies had such technology to detect surfaced U-boats.

[K-61]

Papa Smurf, I love the Kelly's Heroes sig. Woof! Woof!

[CherryHarbey]

attacking on the surface at night always makes me nervous. Somehow I can't get my brain around "I can see him, but he can't see me". If can submerge and still get myself into a good firing position then I'll submerge.
And now I've started seeing armed merchants (mar41 in current career) I'm even less inclined to stay on the surface.

[JokerOfFate]

I think by 1944 they started putting mgs on fishing boats :)

[desirableroasted]

Reading some books now, I notice many of the sailors went on the surface at night to attack convoys..

In good weather (that is, moderate view, slightly choppy seas, a bit of rain. no moon), you will be surprised at what you can get away with at "decks awash." Poorly manned escorts might pass you at 150m and not notice you.

When you are within the screen, and outside the convoy itself, you usually have a good 2-3 minutes to set up four individual shots. You will need pen, paper and calculator, because even your weps officer won't give you comparative times between two targets.

[Obersteuermann]

Reading some books now, I notice many of the sailors went on the surface at night to attack convoys.. Even to the point of sailing in between them with 400 meters apart.. (Thats DAMN CLOSE)

But it seems historically this was accurate.. Even to the point where they would be VERY close to an escort and fade into the darkness ( 1000 meters )

I never really tried this in the game (GWX3) but I assume that if I tried, I would be destroyed within seconds, even by the merchant ships.


So I was wondering.. Its just safe to dive only in this game and try to get a good vantage point from the very get go?

THANKS
Sounds like you've just read Iron Coffins by Herbert Werner. A very good read, but I'm told that his descriptions of convoy battles were mostly fiction. Apparently the first attack in the book (aboard U-556? I forget the boat's number) was something he made up completely. A shame, because it's a gripping read!

[frau kaleun]

Sounds like you've just read Iron Coffins by Herbert Werner. A very good read, but I'm told that his descriptions of convoy battles were mostly fiction. Apparently the first attack in the book (aboard U-556? I forget the boat's number) was something he made up completely. A shame, because it's a gripping read!

Werner's accuracy on many points is certainly debatable but Otto Kretschmer seems to have made a pretty good career out of attacking convoys from within, at night and on the surface. Kretschmer is even credited on occasion with having "invented" the tactic, however in Jordan Vause's book Wolf the author cites another commander who also served on Dönitz's staff (either Oerhn or Oesten, I always get them confused) who stated that practising and perfecting such tactics was included in the standard u-boat training drills.

It's been a while since I read Iron Coffins so I can't remember what if any claims he made about his own participation in such attacks, but given that he didn't have his own boat until 1944, I doubt that he ever personally commanded a surface attack from within a convoy. But he was on a frontboot as a trainee as early as the spring of '41 and I suppose it's possible that such tactics were still being used at that time. Either way, just because he mentions such things happening doesn't mean they never did. :DL

[Snestorm]

Now entering februar 1942 in my current carreer.
SH3 is about to begin my re-education process.

Eventualy, we will be reduced to submerged attacks, on ships that practicaly trip over us.

[Tessa]

Werner's accuracy on many points is certainly debatable but Otto Kretschmer seems to have made a pretty good career out of attacking convoys from within, at night and on the surface. Kretschmer is even credited on occasion with having "invented" the tactic, however in Jordan Vause's book Wolf the author cites another commander who also served on Dönitz's staff (either Oerhn or Oesten, I always get them confused) who stated that practising and perfecting such tactics was included in the standard u-boat training drills.

Kretscmer was the most aggressive and bold captain Germany had as well as a highly trained crew. Before he was captured the majority of the officers that got transfered off the boat went to command their own. He reminds me of Patton with the way he demanded and got the best out of his soldiers. When I think of what it would'be been like on Kretschmer's boat I imagine very few order having to be given as the crew would already know what they needed to do without being told; like having an entire crew of CPO's.

Going into the convoy also provides you with a great deal of safety. Unless you aren't paying attention and they zig zag the boats couldn't maneuver enough to try and ram you, more importantly the escorts frequently won't attack you even with their deck guns because of the high probability of friendly fire and sinking a merchant ship -

Though that might have changed in 3.0, haven't been in a convoy yet that had enough good targets to warrant using that tactic, but when I was raiding Southend (2 huge troop liners, 46,000 tons for the price of 4 torpedoes) I needed to surface to get air and move the reserve torpedoes. All the escort got caught on the other sides of the piers and kept firing at me despite there being a building between them and me. My boat drifted a little to far back and the DD starting shooting at a large merchant that was parked on the other side of pier. They sunk it before I finished moving the reserves.

When you need to reload your tubes going under a large ship such as a merchant or tanker provides perfect cover as the escorts won't try to DC you either, then just move around to your next targets and re-surface. Only real vice with being within the columns is the ships using their spotlights can get really annoying.

Don't forget the deck gun!