Obamacare Lawsuit to be heard in my hometown this week

[Bubblehead1980]

The Obama Regime's motion to dismiss the Lawsuit filed by Florida Attorney General Bill McCollum(joined by 20 other states) will be heard in my hometown of Pensacola, FL at the Federal Courthouse on 14 September.Really wish I could be there but I am currently away for my first term of law school.Really would be great to watch the regime's motion flushed down the legal toilet so that the lawsuit may continue it's journey to the US Supreme Court and hopefully result in the repeal of the Obamacare:up:

[Takeda Shingen]

OT--I thought that you were born and raised nearly Philly. I had no idea you were from Pensacola.

[gimpy117]

and how exactly is "obamacare" illegal?

it's funny how many illegal things bush did...but everybody let it slide.

[August]

and how exactly is "obamacare" illegal?

Show me in the US Constitution where it gives the Federal Government permission to require that I do business with a private company.

[SteamWake]

Show me in the US Constitution where it gives the Federal Government permission to require that I do business with a private company.

Furthermore where it states that it can require you to purchase and pay for a service / product.

[mookiemookie]

Show me in the US Constitution where it gives the Federal Government permission to require that I do business with a private company.

There are a lot of things that are legal that are not explicitly stated in the constitution.

Show me in the constitution that my tax dollars can be used for space exploration. Show me in the constitution where the DEA can arrest me for a meth lab. Show me in the constitution where I have to comply with a flight attendant's directions.

Etc etc

[AVGWarhawk]

Show me in the constitution where I have to comply with a flight attendant's directions.



It depends on what she looks like and what she is asking me to do. :O::DL

[mookiemookie]

It depends on what she looks like and what she is asking me to do. :O::DL

If you're expecting nice looking flight attendants, it's clear that you haven't flown lately. :03:

[AVGWarhawk]

If you're expecting nice looking flight attendants, it's clear that you haven't flown lately. :03:

You sir are correct! :DL

[Sailor Steve]

it's funny how many illegal things bush did...but everybody let it slide.
That part I'll certainly agree with. This has nothing to do with legal or illegal, just "my guy against yours". It's a political post, nothing more.

[August]

There are a lot of things that are legal that are not explicitly stated in the constitution.

Show me in the constitution that my tax dollars can be used for space exploration. Show me in the constitution where the DEA can arrest me for a meth lab. Show me in the constitution where I have to comply with a flight attendant's directions.

Etc etc

Whether you think they are legal or not is immaterial as they are not the same things Mookie.

This is a whole new area of government control that probably won't survive constitutional muster once it gets to the SC.

Where else does the government have the right to make you purchase services or goods from a private company? I think mandatory car insurance comes the closest and that only applies if you want to drive on public roads and then only your liability against damages to others.

[Bubblehead1980]

OT--I thought that you were born and raised nearly Philly. I had no idea you were from Pensacola.

haha what gave you that impression?

[August]

haha what gave you that impression?

You should enter a location in your profile so folks don't make that mistake.

[GoldenRivet]

I think mandatory car insurance comes the closest and that only applies if you want to drive on public roads and then only your liability against damages to others.

living is a right.

driving is a privilege.

two totally different things. you dont have the right to drive a car any more than you have the right to fly an airplane... you must be licensed on some level be it state or federal to do those things... therefore, you may be required to meet numerous requirements in order to operate your vehicle.

the left likes to go back to Bush a lot. they like to spout off about "you guys supported Bush at every turn" which is simply NOT true :shifty: a lot of "us" didnt support the wire tapping, or the formation of the TSA and a lot of the other crap he pulled.

the fact is that the Government does not have the authority to mandate to the people that they must do business with a company or that they must purchase a certain good or service.

the problem here is a simple one.

for decades, the federal government has been power grabbing, diminishing our rights, cutting into our personal lives and becoming more and more a tyranny with every "election".

the democrats do it, the republicans do it... and they slice away a little piece of our liberty every time someone moves into the white house.

it doesn't matter who it is in there, they do it.

and the fact remains that half the nation will oppose these cuts into the flesh of liberty, and the other half will support it based solely on whether there is an (R) or a (D) at the end of the person's name.

The American people cannot see the forest for the trees. Its sad really. but true.

I have cried fowl over this health care bill from the start.

its not just a health care bill, and for those who have taken the time to read the thing - you know all the nonsense that FILLS this bill up with garbage.

America will not last forever, she will destroy herself from within. thats a fact. her days are numbered IMHO simply because we have become a selfish, foolish, entitlement society - unless we can change that - we are screwed.

[Bubblehead1980]

That part I'll certainly agree with. This has nothing to do with legal or illegal, just "my guy against yours". It's a political post, nothing more.

You are incorrect.This has everything to do with the constitutionality of the health care law passed earlier this year.When Bush was doing things I did not like, I spoke up about it but was not on the boards then.Guess what, it does not matter because Bush is not the President and just because one President championed causes that pissed on the Constitution does not mean the next one should get a pass, esp when tweaking something as personal as healthcare.Bush looks like a freaking saint compared to Obama, so get over it and lets talk about NOW.I did not vote for Bill McCollum for Governor but certainly proud to have him as my Attorney General who has the guts to take on the regime.

Obamacare is blatantly unconstitutional.The individual mandate is a great example because the Federal government does NOT have the power under the consitution to tax, penalize(called an excise tax) etc for not buying something.Surely even the most left wing hater of the consitution can see that this flies in the face of what our republic stands for.For if that were true, the government could technically force you to buy anything they deem you need.Obama likes Pepsi?, well he could techinically make us buy Pepsi under the Feds line of thinking.Slippery Slope, remember that.

Then the cost of this monster.We are already in debt, big time and although the scumbags who constructed this law tried to argue it would not add debt, guess what? The CBO has said it will cost more than expected and it will run up yet more debt.The bill is unpopular because it muders liberty when it comes to healthcare, costs too much, will raise health care costs(due to higher taxes on medical equipment etc) and really is just a giant F U to the people under the guise of helping us because the President and Dems in Congress believe they know what is best for us.

There are a few good things but they do not outweigh the faults of the bill.The good things include stopping companies from denying for pre existing conditions.Allowing students to stay on parents insurance until 26, this directly affects me as since I am in law school now and no longer employed, I need my parents insurance but if I do not have it, well I'll handle it.

The Republicans will most likely win mid terms in a big way and have vowed repeal and repass, so the few good things combined with some tort reform(yes coming from an aspiring lawyer) and some other things could make a decent, constitutional healthcare law.No doubt we need some reform in our system but Obamacare is not reform, it's giant, unconstitutional power grab that will damage our republic even further and those who fail to see that, well hopefully they will see the light someday.

[Bubblehead1980]

You should enter a location in your profile so folks don't make that mistake.

done and done:up:

[August]

done and done:up:

Excellent! Now when you post I can supply the appropriate accent to your writing.

[Sailor Steve]

You are incorrect.This has everything to do with the constitutionality of the health care law passed earlier this year.
Fair enough, and as usual I agree, being much more conservative than you might think. The problem is the old saying "It's not what you say, it's how you say it." When you use dismissive terms like "regime" you come across as narrow, one-sided and opinionated. I've said before that you sound like you learned your politics from Sean Hannity. Sorry if that offends, because I agree with you more than you know, but you make conservatives look bad.

[Takeda Shingen]

haha what gave you that impression?

I just thought I remember you saying something like that. Must have been someone else. Sorry.

[Aramike]

Show me in the constitution that my tax dollars can be used for space exploration. Show me in the constitution where the DEA can arrest me for a meth lab. Show me in the constitution where I have to comply with a flight attendant's directions.Article 1, Secton 8, Clause 1 states: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Hence the space program. Congress can collect taxes to pay for things. Congress cannot force citizens to pay private companies for things. Furthermore the same section grants Congress the power to ban your meth lab and the 4th Amendment provides where the DEA can enter your home and arrest you for it. Finally, the flight attendent can force you to comply due to the Federal Aviation Act which was legally enstated by Congress due to powers granted to them via Article 1 Section 8.

Congress forcing all citizens to pay private companies for insurance could be considered a federal tax, but such a tax seems to be a clear violation of the language in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 which states "...but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States", unless of course the bill provides that all insurance coverage costs be precisely the same (which I don't believe it does). And even then it would be a stretch to consider a payment to private companies a tax.

(To be honest, I believe a single-payer system would be far more Constitutional than Obamacare, but people just don't want that.)

[Bubblehead1980]

Fair enough, and as usual I agree, being much more conservative than you might think. The problem is the old saying "It's not what you say, it's how you say it." When you use dismissive terms like "regime" you come across as narrow, one-sided and opinionated. I've said before that you sound like you learned your politics from Sean Hannity. Sorry if that offends, because I agree with you more than you know, but you make conservatives look bad.

Well I feel Obama Admin has earned the title of Obama Regime, so I use it.Say some Republican(of alleged Republican like McCain, etc) were to to to pass such a blatantly unconstitutional law, I would be just as upset.I was upset the Patriot Act, although I understand it had good intentions I felt it could be abused and turned on American citizens not involved with terrorism, so I was opposed to it which believe me, made plenty of my fellow conservatives angry esp after 9/11.

[Bubblehead1980]

Excellent! Now when you post I can supply the appropriate accent to your writing.

lol well I actually do not have a heavy accent, just a slight one.

[TLAM Strike]

(To be honest, I believe a single-payer system would be far more Constitutional than Obamacare, but people just don't want that.)

Well I wanted that, and the people I voted for wanted that, the rest of congress didn't apparently...

:-?

[Bubblehead1980]

I just thought I remember you saying something like that. Must have been someone else. Sorry.

No problem.

[Bubblehead1980]

Well I wanted that, and the people I voted for wanted that, the rest of congress didn't apparently...

:-?

I was and am absolutely against a single payer system.We do not want a NHS style quagmire here.

[TLAM Strike]

I was and am absolutely against a single payer system.We do not want a NHS style quagmire here.

As opposed to the Quadgmire I'm in? I make too much to get on Medicaid, make too little to afford it on my own. Will be 26 next year so no student on parents heath care (my dad only gets health care from the VA so I'm not even sure that counts).

:-?

[Aramike]

Well I wanted that, and the people I voted for wanted that, the rest of congress didn't apparently...

:-?Honest question: do you really think such a system would work? If so, please explain where you come up with the resources to make it work.

I've been pretty clear on my opinion on this - I'm not opposed to a FORM (key word) of universal healthcare - but one must be developed that doesn't reduce the quality of care nor tax the system beyond it's limits.

[Aramike]

As opposed to the Quadgmire I'm in? I make too much to get on Medicaid, make too little to afford it on my own. Will be 26 next year so no student on parents heath care (my dad only gets health care from the VA so I'm not even sure that counts).

:-?You're exactly in the ****ty situation that I think needs to be addressed, by the way. How would you feel about a healthcare system that provides for excessive needs (such as catastrophic care) but does not provide for every little cold you have?

[mookiemookie]

Article 1, Secton 8, Clause 1 states: "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;"

Hence the space program. Congress can collect taxes to pay for things. Congress cannot force citizens to pay private companies for things. Furthermore the same section grants Congress the power to ban your meth lab and the 4th Amendment provides where the DEA can enter your home and arrest you for it. Finally, the flight attendent can force you to comply due to the Federal Aviation Act which was legally enstated by Congress due to powers granted to them via Article 1 Section 8.

Congress forcing all citizens to pay private companies for insurance could be considered a federal tax, but such a tax seems to be a clear violation of the language in Article 1, Section 8, Clause 1 which states "...but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States", unless of course the bill provides that all insurance coverage costs be precisely the same (which I don't believe it does). And even then it would be a stretch to consider a payment to private companies a tax.

(To be honest, I believe a single-payer system would be far more Constitutional than Obamacare, but people just don't want that.)

Providing for the general welfare includes healthcare. And then Congress has the right to make any law that is 'necessary and proper' for the execution of its enumerated powers (Art. I, Sec. 8, Cl. 18).

QED.

PS: though I agree that this law, as enacted, is crappy. But it opens the door to better ones such as universal single payer. Hopefully. :-\

[Zachstar]

The BS lawsuit will not work. If they smacked down the requirement to have health insurance the same ruling will be used to tie up the courts from people who drive without car insurance.

If the law could be changed I would say tho that the only thing you are required to have is insurance to cover checkups and have that subsidized as over time that will reduce the overall level of care needed.

[Castout]

Personally I see nothing wrong with Obama policies except when he tries to broker a Middle east peace deal between Israel and Palestine.

Now intention is one thing but the stupidity to carry them without proper timing and condition is another.

I see this as a sign that Obama may be trapped in the expectation presented mostly from the Muslim world that he would be the one to finally succeed in securing Israel-Palestinian peace deal.

I sense a desperation here and a lost of touch with reality.

[August]

The BS lawsuit will not work. If they smacked down the requirement to have health insurance the same ruling will be used to tie up the courts from people who drive without car insurance.

Apples and oranges.

First off the Federal government doesn't mandate having car insurance. That is done by the states and probably still not all of them. Rhode Island only went mandatory a few years ago for example.

Second, where it is mandated the legal minimum is always only liability. ie it only covers damage to other drivers if you are at fault. Health insurance has nothing to do with liability or damage to other people.

Third, one is only required to have car insurance if one plans to drive their car on public roads. As long as you do all your driving on private property you don't even need a drivers license (something also not mandated by the Feds).

You can't really compare the two.

[Zachstar]

It matters not if its fed or state its a gov forcing you to buy insurance period.

[August]

It matters not if its fed or state its a gov forcing you to buy insurance period.


You'd like it to be that simple but it's not. Purpose, implementation and authority are all different. Apples and oranges.

[TLAM Strike]

Honest question: do you really think such a system would work? If so, please explain where you come up with the resources to make it work.

I've been pretty clear on my opinion on this - I'm not opposed to a FORM (key word) of universal healthcare - but one must be developed that doesn't reduce the quality of care nor tax the system beyond it's limits.Well one idea would be to get the 50% of illegal immigrents who don't pay taxes to pay them. (Something like you pay taxes for five years you get on the fast track to citizenship). The half that payed taxes last year shelled out $7 billion in Social Security alone (just a guess from my pay stub but it would work out to about $3 billion in medicaid and federal taxes).

Other than that (its late and I don't feel like researching more) I would look to other nations with such a system: namely Japan and Sweden.

[Aramike]

Providing for the general welfare includes healthcare. And then Congress has the right to make any law that is 'necessary and proper' for the execution of its enumerated powers (Art. I, Sec. 8, Cl. 18)....except they are not providing anything for the general welfare; rather they are requiring private citizens provide healthcare for themselves to be purchased from a private entity (which is why I stated that single payer would have been more Constitutional).PS: though I agree that this law, as enacted, is crappy. But it opens the door to better ones such as universal single payer. Hopefully. :-\ As I asked TLAM, how would you propose creating a single-payer system in THIS nation that would work?

[antikristuseke]

Personally I favor a single payer system, but I concider the United states to be too large to run a single payer system efficently, a better option would be for the fed to set a minimal standard of healthcare states must provide and leave it up to the states how set the tax to provide that healthcare coverage. Though this sounds a lot easyer than it would actually be.

[TLAM Strike]

Personally I favor a single payer system, but I concider the United states to be too large to run a single payer system efficently, a better option would be for the fed to set a minimal standard of healthcare states must provide and leave it up to the states how set the tax to provide that healthcare coverage. Though this sounds a lot easyer than it would actually be.
However a bigger nation wide system has advantages. Companies that produce medical goods (from band aids to X Ray machines) would have to deal with them. Meaning they have a huge incentive to market their products at the best quality and lowest price otherwise they would have nowhere else to sell.

[antikristuseke]

There are benefits and drawback to both. It is about striking the best balance and to be completely honest, I don't really know which would be better, but both seem better than the system that stands now, if properly implemented.
The main problem I see is the politization of the issue and witting it down to soundbites instead of talking about the actual issues.

[mookiemookie]

The main problem I see is the politization of the issue and witting it down to soundbites instead of talking about the actual issues.

That's every issue in American politics! Your average American voter is so dumb and has such a short attention span that if your political message doesn't fit on a bumper sticker, you've lost the debate.

[August]

Your average American voter is so dumb and has such a short attention span that if your political message doesn't fit on a bumper sticker, you've lost the debate.

This is what folks mean when they say the Democrats are elitist. Maybe it's just the Independent in me but i'll never vote for a party that says i'm too dumb to be their boss.

[mookiemookie]

This is what folks mean when they say the Democrats are elitist. Maybe it's just the Independent in me but i'll never vote for a party that says i'm too dumb to be their boss.

First off - not a Democrat.

I think you're just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. You know darn well that the American electorate is stunningly ill-informed on all sorts of issues and facts - ranging from basic procedures and civics to recent events.

In 1996 voters were asked whether the deficit had gone up or down under Bill Clinton. It had, in fact, plunged — but a plurality of voters, and a majority of Republicans, said that it had risen.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/19/opinion/19krugman.html?_r=1&hp

“Whenever the people are well informed they can be trusted with their own government.” - the famous liberal elitist Jefferson.

only one in four Americans could name more than one of the five freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment (freedom of speech, religion, press, assembly and petition for redress of grievances), but more than half could name at least two members of the Simpsons cartoon family.

...

Another poll a few years ago found only one in five Americans knew Congress has 100 senators and only two in five could name all three branches of government.

http://www.phillytrib.com/tribune/commentary/61-opedcommentary/14080-the-us-a-national-dumb-ocracy.html

[August]

You know darn well that the American electorate is stunningly ill-informed on all sorts of issues and facts - ranging from basic procedures and civics to recent events.

Like I said, elitist, or racist, or possibly both. It's a common dem mantra that ought to serve them really well come November.

[mookiemookie]

Like I said, elitist, or racist, or possibly both.
Uh, no.

[Sailor Steve]

Mookie, I'll say the same thing to you that I say to anyone I hear criticizing Utah drivers: Never forget, you are one.

You are the American electorate. Some of them are, as you say, not so well informed. I actually place myself in that category. Others are very well informed indeed. But whether you are one or the other is unknowable at best. Inform yourself all you like, you have to face the possibility that you could still be wrong. And others need to face the idea that you could be right.

And it's true that the great majority don't know and don't care, but you do indeed make it sound like you know what's best for them, and they should listen only to you. As I've tried to remind others, it's how you say it that comes across.

[antikristuseke]

Stop talking sense in a political thread, you are missing the point of politics entirely! :nope:

[August]

Mookie, I'll say the same thing to you that I say to anyone I hear criticizing Utah drivers: Never forget, you are one.

You are the American electorate. Some of them are, as you say, not so well informed. I actually place myself in that category. Others are very well informed indeed. But whether you are one or the other is unknowable at best. Inform yourself all you like, you have to face the possibility that you could still be wrong. And others need to face the idea that you could be right.

And it's true that the great majority don't know and don't care, but you do indeed make it sound like you know what's best for them, and they should listen only to you. As I've tried to remind others, it's how you say it that comes across.

To be fair it's not Mookie in particular, but rather a school of thought that pervades Dem party thinking.

[Sailor Steve]

To be fair it's not Mookie in particular, but rather a school of thought that pervades Dem party thinking.
Group mentality also pervades the Right. But I only speak to individuals.

[AVGWarhawk]

Group mentality also pervades the Right. But I only speak to individuals.

In short, birds of a feather flock together.

[antikristuseke]

And make easyer targets for shotguns to continue the analogy.

[Sailor Steve]

And make easyer targets for shotguns to continue the analogy.
Actually I've used that comparison when discussing certain pundits: "He uses a shotgun to snipe at people."

[August]

Group mentality also pervades the Right.

I don't deny that but the Gop does tend to refrain from belittling the people who vote them into office. Dems would be well advised to do the same.

[antikristuseke]

That does certainly fit what I ment to sya better than what I actually posted. 11 and a half hours at work tend to do that to my allready questionably useful brain.

[mookiemookie]

Mookie, I'll say the same thing to you that I say to anyone I hear criticizing Utah drivers: Never forget, you are one.

You are the American electorate. Some of them are, as you say, not so well informed. I actually place myself in that category. Others are very well informed indeed. But whether you are one or the other is unknowable at best. Inform yourself all you like, you have to face the possibility that you could still be wrong. And others need to face the idea that you could be right.

And it's true that the great majority don't know and don't care, but you do indeed make it sound like you know what's best for them, and they should listen only to you. As I've tried to remind others, it's how you say it that comes across.

Steve, as always I defer to your wisdom.

However I do take issue with one thing: "but you do indeed make it sound like you know what's best for them, and they should listen only to you." In this case, I was not arguing any side of an issue, I was making a point about the state of the average American voter. My lament is that honest and informed discussion has been replaced by polemics and ideological dogmatic talking points, fed to people by the talking heads on the TV. And I do try to consider alternative points of view - I posted a link from "The American Conservative" magazine earlier today. I was clicking through some of the articles on that site and found a lot of them surprisingly well reasoned and sound - even though I disagreed, it was very well informed commentary without the hand waving proclamations of doom about sleeper cell Manchurian Candidate presidents.

[Sailor Steve]

In this case, I was not arguing any side of an issue, I was making a point about the state of the average American voter. My lament is that honest and informed discussion has been replaced by polemics and ideological dogmatic talking points, fed to people by the talking heads on the TV.
I understand, and agree. It just seemed to me that August was responding to what it sounded like. Perhaps what he read was not the way you meant it, but it did sound like that to me as well.

[mookiemookie]

I understand, and agree. It just seemed to me that August was responding to what it sounded like. Perhaps what he read was not the way you meant it, but it did sound like that to me as well.

Chalk it up to me not being a very good writer. :oops::88)

[The Third Man]

Confronted by ABC News correspondent Jake Tapper about how Obamacare has already turned into the fiscal imbroglio Democrats denied it would be, Obama froze stiffer than Nancy Pelosi’s face on a Lake Tahoe ski lift:


“No — as I said, uh, Jacob, the — I haven’t read the entire study, uh, maybe you have. But, uh, you know, if — if you — if what the reports are true, what they’re saying is that as a consequence of us getting 30 million additional people health care, at the margins that’s gonna increase our costs, we knew that. We didn’t think that we were gonna cover 30 million people… for… free.

Actually, Mr. President, that’s. Precisely. What. You. Said. While his backtracking tends to be laughably divorced from reality, Obama’s stilted speech patterns and inexplicable “I don’t write it, I just read it” dependence on the teleprompter has actually passed funny and disembarked at creepy. I can’t help but wonder if David Axelrod is standing behind the blue curtain with a remote control.

[XabbaRus]

I was and am absolutely against a single payer system.We do not want a NHS style quagmire here.

Excuse me.

Actually the NHS on the whole works. It isn't perfect but I know for a fact that I can see a doctor when I need to and it isn't going to hit my pocket or I'm going to get whacked with a massive bill at the end of treatment.

The NHS has problems sure, and the first thing I would do is sack half the managers in order to cut overheads. The frontline staff are top notch.

[Bubblehead1980]

Excuse me.

Actually the NHS on the whole works. It isn't perfect but I know for a fact that I can see a doctor when I need to and it isn't going to hit my pocket or I'm going to get whacked with a massive bill at the end of treatment.

The NHS has problems sure, and the first thing I would do is sack half the managers in order to cut overheads. The frontline staff are top notch.


Well I've personally talked to 4 people in my life who had nothing but bad things to say about NHS.Sure the front line people like docs and nurses are great people but the system itself is awful and overloaded, sounds like a big red tape mess that will prob never be reformed.Add in the multiple reports I've read along with horror stories, i'll pass.

Our health care system is the US is not as broken as it is made out to be but some reform is needed.A way needs to be found to control premium costs but the care itself is fine. One issue is government programs like medicare or medicaid or tricare never fully reinburse a hospital for the full amount, forcing them to write off large amounts and the cost is passed on to others.My mother worked in insurance and billing at hospital for several years and told me all about it.You may have a procedure that costs 10,000 dollars and medicare may pay 2500 of it thus why many doctors have quit accepting medicare/medicaid patients.Obamacare expands these programs that will further undermine the free market system of medical insurance that majority of americans are in.

[Garion]

If it was not for the NHS both myself, my wife and my twin girls would be long dead.

For myself I am severely disabled due to wounds recieved whilst serving in The Royal Navy (many years ago now) and live in constant pain. I spend most of my time in bed (and not in the fun way:)) and take over 24 pills in a 24 hour period. The cost of these meds, my hospital and doctors appointments are all covered by my National Insurance payments which is used to help fund the NHS. No big aftercare bills that would mean me taking out a second mortgage, which is nice :)

18 months ago my wife suffered a brain aneurysm, whilst swimming with a friend in the local swimming pool. The Ambulance took her hospital, she was assessed and treated to make her comfortable and she recieved her coiling operation the next day. Since then she has had further visits to specialists and I am happy to say that she is well on the mend and is able to driver her wee car again. She will continue to recieve checkups every year for the rest of her life.

My twin girls were born 3 months premature, we were told that they would not survive. They spent months in neo-natal intensive care and afterwords when they were allowed home we had follow up visits for years after. They are now 17 and both girls are preparing to go to university :woot:

Now I agree the NHS is not perfect, but I cannot praise highly enough the doctors, nurses and the care my family have recieved over the years.

Sure there are the few cases where things go wrong, but the service is used by millions of people on a daily 24/7 basis and although I can't speak for them I feel the NHS gets a lot more right than it does wrong.

Of course there is also private healthcare available in the UK so for those that can afford it they have the option.

This post is just to explain my familys experiences with the NHS and why we treasure it.

As for Obamacare and the US, I cannot contribute anything to that as I have no experience of it.

Cheers

Garion

Cheers

Garion

[mookiemookie]

As for Obamacare and the US, I cannot contribute anything to that as I have no experience of it.

That doesn't stop people over here from commenting on your medical system. ;)

[Aramike]

Personally I favor a single payer system, but I concider the United states to be too large to run a single payer system efficently, a better option would be for the fed to set a minimal standard of healthcare states must provide and leave it up to the states how set the tax to provide that healthcare coverage. Though this sounds a lot easyer than it would actually be.See this, folks - an actual idea in formation. Not just rhetoric, but an idea. Well done!

I have some ideas about this I'll get into later. Election day, and all...

[Bubblehead1980]

If it was not for the NHS both myself, my wife and my twin girls would be long dead.

For myself I am severely disabled due to wounds recieved whilst serving in The Royal Navy (many years ago now) and live in constant pain. I spend most of my time in bed (and not in the fun way:)) and take over 24 pills in a 24 hour period. The cost of these meds, my hospital and doctors appointments are all covered by my National Insurance payments which is used to help fund the NHS. No big aftercare bills that would mean me taking out a second mortgage, which is nice :)

18 months ago my wife suffered a brain aneurysm, whilst swimming with a friend in the local swimming pool. The Ambulance took her hospital, she was assessed and treated to make her comfortable and she recieved her coiling operation the next day. Since then she has had further visits to specialists and I am happy to say that she is well on the mend and is able to driver her wee car again. She will continue to recieve checkups every year for the rest of her life.

My twin girls were born 3 months premature, we were told that they would not survive. They spent months in neo-natal intensive care and afterwords when they were allowed home we had follow up visits for years after. They are now 17 and both girls are preparing to go to university :woot:

Now I agree the NHS is not perfect, but I cannot praise highly enough the doctors, nurses and the care my family have recieved over the years.

Sure there are the few cases where things go wrong, but the service is used by millions of people on a daily 24/7 basis and although I can't speak for them I feel the NHS gets a lot more right than it does wrong.

Of course there is also private healthcare available in the UK so for those that can afford it they have the option.

This post is just to explain my familys experiences with the NHS and why we treasure it.

As for Obamacare and the US, I cannot contribute anything to that as I have no experience of it.

Cheers

Garion

Cheers

Garion


Well I am glad to hear that the NHS has worked well for you.I have heard many horror stories though so nice to hear that.Also, in the UK do you have to pay the NHS tax if you choose to use private insurance?

The US government would do nothing but create a large bloated burden on taxpayers.No doubt the class warefare types here would demand the so called "rich" bare the brunt of it even though they would no doubt choose to use private insurance.

America as she is supposed to be is a free market society, better ways than to create yet another government agency to put us further in the hole.

Perhaps a strictly voluntary "public option", where you only pay a tax for the service if you use the service to compete with private insurance, perhaps help control prices that way.
Tort reform, allow customers to shop across state lines, etc simple ideas that would work, not a big bloated government agency that will end up being a real cluster.

[Aramike]

Mookie, btw, I am trying to figure out where your disdain was for the common American voter when they voted your candidate into office...

[mookiemookie]

Mookie, btw, I am trying to figure out where your disdain was for the common American voter when they voted your candidate into office...

Dennis Kucinich wasn't elected President.

[Bubblehead1980]

Dennis Kucinich wasn't elected President.


You would want Tiny Kucinich as President? LOL you must be kidding, that guy is one wacked out Liberal fool.

[Aramike]

Dennis Kucinich wasn't elected President.You know what I meant ...

...again, where was the disdain when liberals took office?

[mookiemookie]

You know what I meant ...

...again, where was the disdain when liberals took office?

I've....always thought American voters were distracted by the "ooh shiny!"? It's politics in general. You're taking it as if I'm leveling my comments at right leaning voters only. Get over that. I'm saying it applies to everyone. We as a country put more thought and emphasis into voting for the next American Idol singer than we do our elected officials.

In 2006, only 37% of voting age people voted for president. A little over 1 in 3 people thought it important that they cast their vote for the highest elected office in the land. In 2008 it was 56.8% - the highest since 1968. What does that say about us when on a good day, a little over half of us can be bothered to vote?

The 24 hour news cycle has addled our brains. 10 second sound bites and 30 second summaries of complex geopolitical and domestic issues are what's fed to us because complex and nuanced discussions are "omg soooo lame!" People can't or won't think for themselves, so issues are boiled down into black and white, us vs. them, good guys and bad guys because that's simple and that's the message they can get across in 2 minutes. And then they have to fill up the rest of the time, since they're on the air 24 hours a day. They spend time discussing what Obama's choice of beer says about him as a person. They devote entire interview segments to Bristol Palin and Levi's relationship status. You know, the hard hitting issues.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Voters in this country are apathetic and ill-informed on the issues that matter. You know it and I know it.

[Bubblehead1980]

I've....always thought American voters were distracted by the "ooh shiny!"? It's politics in general. You're taking it as if I'm leveling my comments at right leaning voters only. Get over that. I'm saying it applies to everyone. We as a country put more thought and emphasis into voting for the next American Idol singer than we do our elected officials.

In 2006, only 37% of voting age people voted for president. A little over 1 in 3 people thought it important that they cast their vote for the highest elected office in the land. In 2008 it was 56.8% - the highest since 1968. What does that say about us when on a good day, a little over half of us can be bothered to vote?

The 24 hour news cycle has addled our brains. 10 second sound bites and 30 second summaries of complex geopolitical and domestic issues are what's fed to us because complex and nuanced discussions are "omg soooo lame!" People can't or won't think for themselves, so issues are boiled down into black and white, us vs. them, good guys and bad guys because that's simple and that's the message they can get across in 2 minutes. And then they have to fill up the rest of the time, since they're on the air 24 hours a day. They spend time discussing what Obama's choice of beer says about him as a person. They devote entire interview segments to Bristol Palin and Levi's relationship status. You know, the hard hitting issues.

I said it before and I'll say it again. Voters in this country are apathetic and ill-informed on the issues that matter. You know it and I know it.


They WERE apathetic and ill informed.One thing the election of Obama and the mess we have(also thanks to Bush) has done is to awaken the sleeping giant.A lot more people are involved and informed now days and care.The results of apathy and not staying up to date on political issues is well...the election of a man like Barack Hussein Obama.

[XabbaRus]

Well you always hear the horror stories about the NHS. Usually by the people who would like to get rid of it.

And yes, you pay national insurance contributions even if you take out private health care, but then that is your choice to take out private cover. Just to clear a few things up too, over here there are a lot of things private health cover won't touch. Such as cancer treatment, terminal illnesses etc. Bascially you want something that can be treated and fixed and off you go, then sometimes private health care will maybe get it to you quicker. If you have something that they can't make a buck on and is long term and complicated, well funnily enough it is the NHS you have to go to and they probably do a better job.

You might think that is unfair but then most Brits alive and posting here were born after 1947 so have known nothing different.

What it seems with the Obamacare bill is that it is a halfway house, neither fully private nor NHS. It appeases those that want universal no payment at point of service health system but most other people will stick with their own private insurance. It has to be all or nothing, and yes if that happened then you would probably have to pay more tax.

[Bubblehead1980]

My major and first problem with Obamacare is that it is unconstitutional bc of the individual mandate.My second problem is it will hurt small businesses due to the requirement they provide health insurance to employees or face a fine.My third is will cause costs to rise due to the expansion of medicaid(bc medicaid barely pays the bills and the cost eventually gets passed along) Costs will also rise due to various taxes on medical equipment etc Fourth the cost will just add to more debt between medicaid expansion and the subsidies this will be yet another damn entitlement program we cant afford that people are on for life which is on the whole, not the American way.

[Aramike]

In 2006, only 37% of voting age people voted for president. A little over 1 in 3 people thought it important that they cast their vote for the highest elected office in the land. In 2008 it was 56.8% - the highest since 1968. What does that say about us when on a good day, a little over half of us can be bothered to vote? You're confusing me now - are you talking about American voters or Americans of voting age?I said it before and I'll say it again. Voters in this country are apathetic and ill-informed on the issues that matter. You know it and I know it. Okay, but you said...Your average American voter is so dumb and has such a short attention span that if your political message doesn't fit on a bumper sticker, you've lost the debate. For one, it is a mistake to confuse apathy with ignorance. Some people just feel that their vote is so insignificant that the effort required to cast it is more than its worth. For two, I do agree that many voters are ill-informed, but can you blame them? We have a media that clearly favors one side or the next and, during campaign season, most people get their information from candidate ads and/or special interest spots, which have little in the way of accountability for the truth.

It's not a matter of being "dumb", per se. In fact, in many cases, its just a matter of being too busy and disinterested in the minutiae.

[mookiemookie]

You're confusing me now - are you talking about American voters or Americans of voting age? Does it matter? If you're of voting age, you should be registered and vote.

Okay, but you said...For one, it is a mistake to confuse apathy with ignorance. Apathy leads to ignorance.

Some people just feel that their vote is so insignificant that the effort required to cast it is more than its worth. What if they held an election and nobody showed up? If everyone believes they can't make a difference, then they will be right.

For two, I do agree that many voters are ill-informed, but can you blame them? We have a media that clearly favors one side or the next and, during campaign season, most people get their information from candidate ads and/or special interest spots, which have little in the way of accountability for the truth. Exactly my point. They shovel the crap because people have appetites for crap. If people demanded more in the way of their news and information, you'd see the crap shovelling go away. Call me idealistic, but it's true. Political campaigns don't run campaigns based on logic, they run them based on on base emotions.

It's not a matter of being "dumb", per se. In fact, in many cases, its just a matter of being too busy and disinterested in the minutiae. Then the old saw applies - if you're too busy to take an interest in your elected government, then you'll get the government you deserve.

[Aramike]

Does it matter? If you're of voting age, you should be registered and vote.Yes, it matters. Despitethat you THINK everyone should be active, a free society allows a person to decline to take part in the political process.Apathy leads to ignorance.Umm, no - the two are very separate things. It's quite easy to be informed on things but not really care about them. Apathy and ignorance are quite different phenomena.What if they held an election and nobody showed up? If everyone believes they can't make a difference, then they will be right.Who's talking about everyone?Exactly my point. They shovel the crap because people have appetites for crap. If people demanded more in the way of their news and information, you'd see the crap shovelling go away.I disagree. People have an appetite for news and information, especially that which validates the opinions they have already formed.

As far as ads go, I can't imagine many people have an appetite for them period. But even so, how do you propose creating an environment where people don't gravitate towards things which support their ideologies?Call me idealistic, but it's true. It is certainly idealistic, but how can it be a truth when it violates the fundamental human flaw which I described previously? That's akin to saying "it would change everything if the earth was flat. Call me idealistic, but its true".

Umm, clearly? And clearly not?Then the old saw applies - if you're too busy to take an interest in your elected government, then you'll get the government you deserve. This is one of my favorite phrases - in both its implications towards the very importance of voting and activism (which I agree with) and the fact that it is a flat-out exaggeration and half-truth (in a nation with two primary parties, you're going to get one or the other despite your vote, and what you deserve is highly subjective).

[Torvald Von Mansee]

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/6183/kgm6c.jpg

[JU_88]

That part I'll certainly agree with. This has nothing to do with legal or illegal, just "my guy against yours". It's a political post, nothing more.

QFT
And it applies to EVERY political thread in GT.
No one is right or wrong, (even if they can't see it that way)
its just a diffence of opinion

[Sailor Steve]

http://img812.imageshack.us/img812/6183/kgm6c.jpg
When I was young it was the Liberals waging the bad war and the Conservatives trying to end it. Until the Conservatives won the next election.

Your poster is as political as any other statement here. Not about right or wrong, but about your side winning.