Muslim Inbreeding: Impacts on intelligence, sanity, health and society

[Happy Times]

Massive inbreeding within the Muslim culture during the last 1.400 years may have done catastrophic damage to their gene pool. The consequences of intermarriage between first cousins often have serious impact on the offspring’s intelligence, sanity, health and on their surroundings

http://europenews.dk/en/node/34368


Good article, i hope it doesnt lead to anything being burned.:haha:

[gimpy117]

sounds like racist stuff to me just saying

[Blood_splat]

Well they still marry 6 year old girls in some parts of the Middle East.

[Tribesman]

sounds like racist stuff to me just saying

Just look at the site.
Its compiled by crazy idiots for consumption by crazy idiots.

[Happy Times]

sounds like racist stuff to me just saying

Yes, muahahahahahahaaa.

Its really only evil, evil, lies, lies!!

[bookworm_020]

It has been found in other research that in certain cultures where there is a preference to marry a family relation, that there tends to be a higher rate of birth defects, mental and long term health health issues. This is not a religious based issue, but a cultural based one.

Some times it pays to look out side the family for certain things, like a wife.....

[Skybird]

In germany a very popular and one of our most intelligent SPD-politician has just been crucified for publishing a book about the lacking integration of Muslim immigrants, their desastrous impact on the finances of the social wellfare system, and their unsufficient contribution to the German netto-income. In touring and defence for that book ("Deutschland schafft sich ab", Thilo Sarrazin), basing on official statistiscs of federal agencies to which he had access because until end of this September he was and is member of the board of directors of the German Federal Bank and before that was senator for finances in Berlin, he said on one event that vcertain tribes of people share certain similiar gene. He mentioned two examples, one wrong one that escaped his mouth in the heat of battle ("All Jews share a similiar gene", he made no offending comment against them, but the words nevertheless are wrong sionce Judaism is not ethnicity), and for which he excused a day later and said that it is not true that it indeed was the heat of action, the other example was I think some African people sharing some genes as well (wich is true if you look at for example skin colour or facial physiognomy), again he did not make any racist or valuing comment, he mentioned it in a diferent context and in defence of a thesis that intelligence is heritable to some degree. Sarrazoin also pointed out that due to the massive migration of social low class people lacking education and living in a climate of not suporting education and not integrating in germany, but producing much, much more babies than the better educated social middle and upper class and academic families, the mean intelligence of german society is declining. If you look at german school and employers in economy and industry not being able to find sufficiently educated young workers for their jobs because a big share of 16- and 18 year old are not able to read and write correctly and fluently and cannot calöculate even most elemental maths, with university professors complaining that their new students do not even bring in even the olst elemental basics of school education and that they must hold crash-courses in these before they start their regular courses, then you see that Sarrazin again has it right. Problem is that already just one kid in a class not understanding German sufficiently, already leads to a 25% decline of the alotted stint for the semester - for all kids. and in the big cities of Germany, there are more and more schools where German kids are the minority and Musliom kids are dominating. and where they do, you also see a lot of violence, discrimination against germans, etc etc etc. Problem also is that the politicians reacted by lowering the standards for schoolnotes, and designed a legisaltion that leaves teachers no room anymore to stray from the offiocial scheme of how to note how many errors in a classroom exam. Today you get the same note for less performance, or a better note for the same performance. And unacceptable ammounts of errors still earn you good notes. that way, the problem gets glossed over, and in education studies you hear about germany the results seem to say that Germany has climbed in the international ranking. Believe me, the oppoosite is true - I know or get told by several school teachers in three different federal states.

Back to Sarrazin - as was to be expected, he got burned, quartered, hanged, stabbed, poisened and crucified even before the book was published. It is the loudest uproar of the political class of the past years. He has been mobbed out of the federal bank, the president and the chancellor attacked him even before the book was read by them, his party, the socialists, want to throw him out.

In feedback of newspapers, 80-90% of German citizens support Sarrazin and want him to found his own party, together with the conservatives that completely have been mobbed and frustrated out of the CDU, which today is just another clone of the SPD, being destroyed by Merkel (former chief secretary of propaganda in the GDR's youth organisation FDJ (no post that you do not volunteer for, so she learned her basics from the professionals).

On intelligence, it is relatively undisputed that genes play an important factor. That does not mean the final IQ is heritable, but what genes decide on is a wikndow of possibility inside which intelligence can form up, or stagnate, in life, and inside that window of possibility envrionmental and cultural factor decide whether or not intelligence developes more, or less. We also know that lacking mental acivity, especially at higher age but also in younger adult years, can lead to degeneration of intellegence.

This was already consensus in sciences when I studied psychology in the early nineties.

Sarazzin gets suppoort by many prminent and knowing integration and islam experts in Germany who have a migration background themselves and who atrtack islamic subculture over the same reqasons like Sarrazin does, most known are Abdel Samad (Muslim Egyptian background), and Necla Kelec (Muslim turkish background). The latter recently got explained by a stupid Green party leader that her muslimhood is just a false Muslimhood and that Islam in reality is somethign very different, means: what the leftist eggheads want it to be. I laughed out loud. when listening to that hatefilled tirade. Necla kelec takes pride in defending Germqany'S freedom and soveriegnity, for which the left hates her very much, and she is entzhusiastic agbout the values and rich tradition of the german cultural heritage that she sees as so precious and poverwhelkming that she loved to integrate here and fight for German clture bin g the culture oifGermany - for which she is hated in Turkey and by Turkish col9nists in germany - and by almost all the poltiical class in germany, too. As a German in Germany, you are not allowed to defend german cultural identity. If you do, you are a racist and a suspected Nazi. Kelec also has a solid academic preodiler as an intimate expoert for islam. But an arrogant anti-intellectual Green harridan who confesses to wanting to destroy German national identity and national states, knows it all so much better about islam than a turkish Muslima who gained academic training on Islam and became critical of it since she knows by experience and by acadmeic knowledge what it does both in turkey and in germany!?

[darius359au]

Some times it pays to look out side the family for certain things, like a wife.....

The Hapsburg's didn't think so ,they liked to keep it in the family and not mix with the common throng - of course the last of the Hapsburg's was a drooling idiot but at least the bloodline was pure;)

[Skybird]

Gives a new meaning to the term "pure idiocy". :DL

[Tribesman]

It has been found in other research that in certain cultures where there is a preference to marry a family relation, that there tends to be a higher rate of birth defects, mental and long term health health issues. This is not a religious based issue, but a cultural based one.

Yes, but in that rag its dressed up as a religious issue.
Look throughout the site, its just the same muslims muslims muslims crap all through it.
The author of that article appears to write of nothing else.
It could have been written by Skybird as he has the same phobia.


Talking of Sky.......
He mentioned two examples, one wrong one that escaped his mouth in the heat of battle ("All Jews share a similiar gene", he made no offending comment against them, but the words nevertheless are wrong sionce Judaism is not ethnicity),
More complete rubbish from him, and in this case excusing a slip of the tongue where someone rants and forgets to keep their underlying problem under the mask....rather like complaining that blacks ruin soccer when all you really want to say is that its the muslim muslims muslims:yeah:

[MH]

This DNA thing is thin line to walk on.
While IQ is determined by DNA as modern science proves i dont think that certain peoples can be tagged as smarter.
While in western society certain attributes are more valued than others(high education etc)in theory looking from evolutionary point of view it could be true.
In practice i dont see any reason why lets say a Muslim kid which was brought lets say in germany by wetern tradition could be not as smart / well educated as any one else.

Arab culture is very diffrent from western.In general its based on very simple peaple who for most of the part hardly go throuh few years of education .Thats one of the reason why religon has such strong influnce.
Thats why bening more of a man/agresive may be valued to contrary education in modern west.
Kind of like chrystinity in middle ages.-witch burning jews burning and so on....
Going into this DNA stuff kind of gives me creeps.
I dont think its a way to fight radical islam.

Marrage within a family is usally practiced in small religus sects.
While in Arab world the rules may be more flexable its not practiced as much as you may think .
I think we should focus more on killing terrorists and jailing religus nutcases than this mabo jambo.

[JU_88]

So its another attempt to dehumanise Muslims, much like the Nazi's dehumanised the Jews?
Yeah a 'brilliant artical' :88)
-If thats how your mind works.... :nope:

[Skybird]

This DNA thing is thin line to walk on.
While IQ is determined by DNA as modern science proves i dont think that certain peoples can be tagged as smarter.
While in western society certain attributes are more valued than others(high education etc)in theory looking from evolutionary point of view it could be true.
In practice i dont see any reason why lets say a Muslim kid which was brought lets say in germany by wetern tradition could be not as smart / well educated as any one else.

That is the point. "Muslim" is no racial or ethnic category, it is an ideologic one, and just by historic coincidence correspondts most often with the ethnic category of "Arab", for example - and just for the past 1400 years, obviously. The gene determine a range in whcih intelligence can unfold - if the conditions of the social and cultural environment and the education is such that the intelligence is fostered, than it will blossom. If conditions are the opposite, then it is different. In practice, I assume that the genetic range for most mentally sane people is overlapping for the most. But still, qualitative and quantitative differences in ranges (=possible intelligence being reached under good or worse conditions) still may be existent, even if in case of most people they do not become decisive since persons develope an "IQ" (idiotic index, but lets keep it simple) in a range that overlaps with the "window of opportunity" for most others. If people differ in a lower end of the range between let's say 70 and 80 and most people vary in an upper end of 120 and 130, then this means that most people share a common range between 80 and 120 in which cultural and sociological factors decide on their intelligence.

but this means that while a kid from a muslim family being raised in and by western standards of education and social interaction may become quite smart and educated (statistics show that this indeed is the case with migrants and also muslim migrants that indeed integrate in full into the Wetsern world), it also mans that if it is being raised by Chinese or Japanese and Korean standards of education and learning ideals may become even more educated and smarter (statistics show that in Europe Asiens from these countries tend to be amongst the best students), while the same kid being raised in an isolated islamic subculture in Germany, isloated from german cultural contexts more or less and educated by patrairchalic family ideals and quranic order may indeed stay more unedcuated and even intellectually more handicapped than kids not being raised in these conditions. It is an empirically proven fact that there is a strong statistic lin between social class and several diferent factor, amongst them: job chnaces, future social chnaces, ability to compete at school and in education.

You see, I never said that Muslim-born people are stupid by nature, by race, by genes, never. I said that the Muslim ideology educates people to stay stupid. That is something totally different. I am criticising the cultural and sociological consequence of Islam'S dogma and the way cultural climate it creates and that feeds back on the intellect and creativity of people. There is a reason why the Arab sphere in the early medieval, before muhammad, was so much superior in scientific and medical knowledge, maths, commerce etc to Europe - but with Muhammad's impact started to stagnate and fall back, whiole the West shortened the gap, and finally overtook the Islamic sphere in intellectual competence, and then left it far behind in the dust. Genes have not much to do with that, but the cultural impact of islamic teaching and the educational consequences it has in the individual.

So I see indeed many devout muslims as being intellectually handicapped - the dogma has power over them, keeping their independent thinking in tight check. But I do not see it as an issue decisively detemrined by genes alone. To me it is a cultural and sociological issue. And that can be adresse donly if mininising the eliminating the influence of islam in their education.

That people sometimes label me as a racist only shows that they do not care for reading me carefully enough - if they read me at all. For some just criticising muslims already is enough to snap by reflex like a Pawlowian conditioned dog, no matter what the criticism says and is based on. For them, their own ideologically motivated view of things supercedes facts from reality, always. They do not deal with reality, but with their own hallucinations. Well, everyone to his own.

[Skybird]

This DNA thing is thin line to walk on.
While IQ is determined by DNA as modern science proves i dont think that certain peoples can be tagged as smarter.
While in western society certain attributes are more valued than others(high education etc)in theory looking from evolutionary point of view it could be true.
In practice i dont see any reason why lets say a Muslim kid which was brought lets say in germany by wetern tradition could be not as smart / well educated as any one else.

That is the point. "Muslim" is no rqacial or ethnic category, it is an ideologic one, and just by historic coincidence correspondts most often with the ethnic category of "Arab", for example - and just for the past 1400 years, obviously. The gene determine a range in whcih intelligence can unfold - if the conditions of the social and cultural environment and the education is such that the intelligence is fostered, than it will blossom. If conditions are the opposite, then it is different. In practice, I assume that the genetic range for most mentally sane people is overlapping for the most. But still, qualitative and quantitative differences in ranges (=possible intelligence being reached under good or worse conditions) still may be existent, even if in case of most people they do not become decisive since persons develope an "IQ" (idiotic index, but lets keep it simple) in a range that overlaps with the "window of opportunity" for most others. If people differ in a lower end of the range between let's say 70 and 80 and most people vary in an upper end of 120 and 130, then this means that most people share a common range between 80 and 120 in which cultural and sociological factors decide on their intelligence.

but this means that while a kid from a muslim family being raised in and by western standards of education and social interaction may become quite smart and educated (statistics show that this indeed is the case with migrants and also muslim migrants that indeed integrate in full into the Wetsern world), it also mans that if it is being raised by Chinese or Japanese and Korean standards of education and learning ideals may become even more educated and smarter (statistics show that in Europe Asiens from these countries tend to be amongst the best students), while the same kid being raised in an isolated islamic subculture in Germany, isloated from german cultural contexts more or less and educated by patrairchalic family ideals and quranic order may indeed stay more unedcuated and even intellectually more handicapped than kids not being raised in these conditions. It is an empirically proven fact that there is a strong statistic lin between social class and several diferent factor, amongst them: job chnaces, future social chnaces, ability to compete at school and in education.

You see, I never said that Muslim-born people are stupid by nature, never. I said that the Muslim ideology edcuates people to stay stupid. that is something totally different. I am criticisng the cultural and sociological consequence of Islam'S dogma and the way cultural climate it creates and that feeds back on the intellect and creativity of people. There is a reason why the Arab sphere in the early medieval, before muhammad, was so much superior in scientific and medical knowledge, maths, commerce etc to Europe - but with Muhammad's impact started to stagnate and fall back, whiole the West shortened the gap, and finally overtook the Islamic sphere in intellectual competence, and then left it far behind in the dust. Genes have not much to do with that, but the cultural impact of islamic teaching and the educational consequences it has in the individual.

[Foxtrot]

Mohamed El-Fatatry, a very successful Muslim entrepreneur from your own backyard is a prime living example to deny your article.

[NeonSamurai]

I have to say I am a bit dubious about this report. Marrying first cousins is more of a cultural thing then a religious thing (I am not aware of anything in Islam that calls for or recommends marrying family, though I could be wrong). I am sure though that there are certain cultures that do this practice (Pakistan may be one of them I don't know).

I also question the reliability and veracity of that site.

As for the rest, well the genetics mentioned are correct. The statistics may be correct (its not racist or anti-group if the statements are truthful, despite what political correctness wants us to think), but I am not sure I trust most of the sources (a lot of the sources quoted are Indian and targeting Pakistan).

Mohamed El-Fatatry, a very successful Muslim entrepreneur from your own backyard is a prime living example to deny your article.
The exception does not disprove the rule. Its a question of the overall population, not outliers in the trend.


<edit>
On another note, I am not sure if IQ is the best measure for this. It is known in the Psychology community that the basic IQ tests are skewed towards the educated western world and anglo-saxon culture. It rates and values things that our society values and encourages development in. As a result people from other cultures inevitably tend to do very poorly on these tests, which lead to attempts to 'rebalance' the scores by fiddling with the results after being taken.

Personally I am not at all convinced of the validity of the standard existing IQ tests like the Standford-Binet, and WAIS for gauging actual intelligence.

[Platapus]

So its another attempt to dehumanise Muslims, much like the Nazi's dehumanised the Jews?
Yeah a 'brilliant artical' :88)
-If thats how your mind works.... :nope:

Them Mooslems are really animals after all. :88):doh: And every single one of them thinks exactly like the rest. Herd instinct you know.

Didn't we have "research" that said the same thing about them Negros about a hundred years ago? You "know" how they inbred. Like animals. :doh::doh:

sheeesh. What tripe! And evidently there are some buying this. :nope:

[MH]

Mohamed El-Fatatry, a very successful Muslim entrepreneur from your own backyard is a prime living example to deny your article.

Does it?
You actully backed his argument.

[Platapus]

I have to say I am a bit dubious about this report. Marrying first cousins is more of a cultural thing then a religious thing (I am not aware of anything in Islam that calls for or recommends marrying family, though I could be wrong).


Only through an inference. Sura 4:22-24 describes the types of women that a Muslim should not marry. It then states that a Muslim can marry any other women not forbidden. Since the Holy Qur'an does not forbid a Muslim man from marrying his first cousin, one can infer that it is permitted. This follows the philosophy that everything not forbidden is permitted.

In Sura 33-50, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was instructed that he could marry his first cousin. Many, not all, Islamic scholars have interpreted this as allowing all Muslims to marry their first cousin if they so desire.

I have not found anything in my readings of the Holy Qur'an or the Hadith that encourages a Muslim to marry his first cousin.

[NeonSamurai]

Only through an inference. Sura 4:22-24 describes the types of women that a Muslim should not marry. It then states that a Muslim can marry any other women not forbidden. Since the Holy Qur'an does not forbid a Muslim man from marrying his first cousin, one can infer that it is permitted. This follows the philosophy that everything not forbidden is permitted.

In Sura 33-50, the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was instructed that he could marry his first cousin. Many, not all, Islamic scholars have interpreted this as allowing all Muslims to marry their first cousin if they so desire.

I have not found anything in my readings of the Holy Qur'an or the Hadith that encourages a Muslim to marry his first cousin.

Good to know, there might be a slight encouragement then (after all what is good for the prophet may be good for the followers as well). I am not overly well versed in most religious texts I must admit. I prefer to stay away from theology. :DL

[tater]

My first thought was of course that such a link is gonna be World Net Daily type crazy. But while that site is pretty crazy, a quick "reality check" shows that there is a base truth they started with.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11748817
^^^ don't take out any wrath on me, write the PO, Dr. Hussain.

http://informahealthcare.com/doi/abs/10.1080/03014460110100928
^^^ this article links the practice of consanguinity with low education, and suggests that might be a way to correct the problem.

http://www.new.dli.ernet.in/rawdataupload/upload/insa/INSA_1/20005bbc_407.pdf

This wiki article is actually decent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_marriage

There are many more links you can find to studies. (I only looked at those that discussed real papers)

[Happy Times]

One of the well known results are the quadrupedal families in Turkey.


http://cellar.org/2006/quadrupedpeople.jpg

[Skybird]

On another note, I am not sure if IQ is the best measure for this. It is known in the Psychology community that the basic IQ tests are skewed towards the educated western world and anglo-saxon culture. It rates and values things that our society values and encourages development in. As a result people from other cultures inevitably tend to do very poorly on these tests, which lead to attempts to 'rebalance' the scores by fiddling with the results after being taken.

Personally I am not at all convinced of the validity of the standard existing IQ tests like the Standford-Binet, and WAIS for gauging actual intelligence.

Correct. Ask ten different psychologists on what intelligence is, and you will get ten answers putting emphasis on ten different aspects of the "phenomeneon". There might be overlapping parts of definitions, but no consensus on one generally valid definition. I also wonder if there really is some like totally culture-free IQ-tests possible. You can reduce the dependency on culture-typical content, but you cannot erase culture completely from any such tests. It is a running gag at univetsity that intelligence is what an IQ test is measuring. But I learned that the joke holds more truth than just irony of self-feedbacking reflection.

However, intelliegence niveaus also have a social and cultural condensate. Some psychologists say intelligence is the ability to adapt to the needs of a given envrionment in order to ensure survival inside of it. That may be one aspect. But that does not change the fact that when you have an epidemic outbreak in north Africa, you do not call theAnzar university in Cairo, but the disease ciontrol centre in Atlanta, infidel US. If you want to introduce computer networks in the ME, you take technology and expert knowledge made in infidel West. the intellectual discourse on inter-cultural comparisons is dominated by analysis and the eacdemic work of infidel western academics, the vast majority of satellites in global orbits are made in infidel West or are copied from models developed on basis of wetsern infidel technology, and the infidel state of Jewish Israel (Allah's revenge may come upon them) shows what in the envrionment most Araba and muslim states share with the Jews is possible in ecology, agriculture, economy, technolgxy and science of you refer not to the treasure-chest of Islamic education, but infidel Western cultural heritage and Jewish cleverness.

Yes, Jewish cleverness - I indeed think that the Jewish people somewhat are smarter in adaptation techniques and intellectualism than other people. Maybe it has somethign to do with the fact that they have been persecuted since so long - that making them to need to adopt survival techniques that led to a cleverness of theirs that i return made their persecutors hate them even more: now for their perceived greater cleverness. In the list of cultural and acedemic and economic-financial experts, they are statristically overrepresented - more than any other subgroup (different from mere nationality). The massive jewish influence on the cultural life of european societies in the past 2 or 3 hundred years, cannot be overseen - especially in German, which makes the drama of the Third Reich even more tragic. Without Jewish artists, the cultural life in Germany before hitler would not have been what it was - and for some time in the 20s, it was the navel of Europe, and even competing with America (where Jewish artists also were very present).

It is politially correct to claim that all people and all cultures are equal, and all people are born with the same potentials. All that may be politically correct, and in conformity with especially left-oriented political dogmas . But I am convinced for several very different reasons, some of which I mentioned, that it simply is not true.

[Tribesman]

What tripe! And evidently there are some buying this.
Are you surprised?


One of the well known results are the quadrupedal families in Turkey.

You mean 1400 years of widespread inbreeding across a wide area of the globe has resulted in one Kurdish family.:doh:

It is politially correct to claim that all people and all cultures are equal, and all people are born with the same potentials.
Is that another skybird myth?
Its not surprising you are so confused:rotfl2:

[CCIP]

Ugh. Just when I thought GT couldn't possibly get lower, here comes that good old genetics rhetoric. Nothing quite like it to make us "white" people feel better about ourselves, huh. Nothing quite like it to make another step towards dehumanising a threat (whether real or imagined). I note an ironic socialist "we must do this for the health and benefit of our society" conclusion there. Uh-huh. And now we begin to see the convergence of the "socialist" with the "nationalist". Like we didn't see that one play out to its logical conclusion before.
:yawn:

And I keep asking - what's the solution? You guys are very good at toeing that line. You accuse others of political correctness, but the fact is that you yourself are the ultimate masters of political correctness, because you never say what you really mean to be the solution to the "Muslim problem". Because that'd immediately discredit you politically, and that's that - if you follow this logic to the ultimate conclusion, there is no other way around it. A billion and a half people you'd rather not exist, or at least you'd rather not count as people. So what's the answer...? And that's what makes your entire rhetoric on this topic morally and otherwise void.

[Happy Times]

Ugh. Just when I thought GT couldn't possibly get lower, here comes that good old genetics rhetoric. Nothing quite like it to make us "white" people feel better about ourselves, huh. Nothing quite like it to make another step towards dehumanising a threat (whether real or imagined). I note an ironic socialist "we must do this for the health and benefit of our society" conclusion there. Uh-huh. And now we begin to see the convergence of the "socialist" with the "nationalist". Like we didn't see that one play out to its logical conclusion before.
:yawn:


I see this more as a cultural issue not racial but can you say that we can just pass genetics in every discussion.
If there are real negative effects on other people living in the same society we have the right to find the underlying reasons.

Do you see that the article is totally wrong?

[JU_88]

One of the well known results are the quadrupedal families in Turkey.


http://cellar.org/2006/quadrupedpeople.jpg

You mean the Ulas family
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulas_family
That is one Kirdish family - and there appears to be no evidence which confirms their condition is caused by imbreeding either.

So... is that best example you can provide?

[TLAM Strike]

I think they found the reason why Middle easterners learn so well when exposed to Western Culture: Its the language! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11181457)

[Happy Times]

And I keep asking - what's the solution? You guys are very good at toeing that line. You accuse others of political correctness, but the fact is that you yourself are the ultimate masters of political correctness, because you never say what you really mean to be the solution to the "Muslim problem". Because that'd immediately discredit you politically, and that's that - if you follow this logic to the ultimate conclusion, there is no other way around it. A billion and a half people you'd rather not exist, or at least you'd rather not count as people. So what's the answer...? And that's what makes your entire rhetoric on this topic morally and otherwise void.

Your accusation is heavy, i dont think anyone here is promoting killing all muslims. But many probably would be ready create restrictions and laws to preserve our own cultural sphere and heritage.

[Happy Times]

You mean the Ulas family
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulas_family
That is one Kirdish family - and there appears to be no evidence which confirms their condition is caused by imbreeding either.

So... is that best example you can provide?

Your own link says there are other known cases.

You know the family is inbred in more than one generation?
You dont think it might have some effect?

[Happy Times]

I think they found the reason why Middle easterners learn so well when exposed to Western Culture: Its the language! (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-11181457)

That cant be true as it was discovered by the evil jewish scientists.:know:

http://www.jinfo.org/Nobel_Prizes.html

[Takeda Shingen]

I had no idea that xenophobia was so widespread in Europe.

[Happy Times]

I had no idea that xenophobia was so widespread in Europe.

How is your melting pot working today?
Founding fathers must be turning in their graves.

[tater]

The melting pot actually works pretty well. We only really get in trouble when people opt instead for "multiculturalism"—I'd prefer the term "balkanization."

"minority" groups are actually pretty well integrated here in the US, even Muslims are less radical here, even if a disturbing % hold very non-mainstream views.

[Takeda Shingen]

How is your melting pot working today?
Founding fathers must be turning in their graves.

E pluribus unum has been one of our nation's greatest strengths and, evidently, one of your greatest fears.

[TLAM Strike]

I had no idea that xenophobia was so widespread in Europe.
Must be all the foreign invasions. We have had only the one here... :hmmm:

[Takeda Shingen]

Must be all the foreign invasions. We have had only the one here... :hmmm:

Actually, I think it is due to the fact that the United States is a nation of immigrants. Culturally, we are more accepting of the outsider, as we are more parts of a whole than a homogeneous population. More to the point, I find the underlying message of the article and the attitude displayed by some here to be particularly disgusting. When did SubSim become a platform for overt hatred?

[Happy Times]

You might have less problems or not but its clear that you also have problems with immigration today.
The hispanics and muslims have large portions that seem to not want to integrate.

I just dont accept when these xenophobe and nazi labels start here.

I have friends with different backrounds, estonian, russian, kurd, chinese, vietnamese, nigerian.
All have have had the will to integrate to the same values but still preserve some of their own cultural heritage.

Im actually dating a woman with vietnamese backround and she is more open in voicing her concern about the problems in immigration than most.

[tater]

Exactly one month before September 11, 2001, we flew into JFK from Casablanca on our way home after spending a few weeks in Morocco (we stopped for a week in CT with my parents before heading back to New Mexico). I helped a Moroccan kid (around 20 YO) with his immigration form on the plane, and even gave him my window seat so he could see NYC as we flew over. In retrospect his story about going to college in the US was suspect given he wasn't sure where he was going after he landed (mid-august if he was attending, he'd already be registered), but at the time I had no thoughts about it.

I remember saying to my wife in the customs line that it was cool that you could not tell the "US Citizens" line from the non-citizens line.

I still think this is true. That said, I think immigrants should do their level best to integrate into our society. If they fail to meet this minimal requirement, I have no real problem with treating them differently than "regular" Americans. Regular simply meaning people that are trying to be Americans—regardless of their origins.

OT to the "inbreeding" thing, obviously.

On topic, if having kids with relatives has some negative biological consequences (it does), then the fact (it is a fact) that certain muslim areas have very high rates of such births is certainly a health issue. It's obviously a cultural thing, unless the religion actually suggests it explicitly. The practice is old, and exists in other cultures, but has decreased over time. It might be that muslims tend to have not abandoned it because perhaps it is mentioned in the koran or hadith (not commanded, just a historical reality of the period of Muhammad). They culturally do have a tendency to allow stuff that was OK back in the day for that reason (look at the late date of eliminating slavery in the ME (late 1960s!).

[Takeda Shingen]

The United States has an enormous illegal immigration problem. Personally, I think they are criminals and should be labeled as such. However, I don't believe in reverting to using eugenics to label them as sub-human.

[tater]

You might have less problems or not but its clear that you also have problems with immigration today.
The hispanics and muslims have large portions that seem to not want to integrate.


I know many people in the US who are vociferously against ILLEGAL immigration. The press invariably broadens this to "immigration," which is a disservice to those against illegal immigration.

I'd be fine with the US border protected by "shoot to kill" orders, for example. No problem in the least. That said, I'd also be fine with letting as many mexicans immigrate as do now illegally—I just want them to fill out the bloody paperwork. That's it. Illegally crossing? I'm fine with them being killed for that. If they fill out a form so we can check that they are not criminals, etc? Let them in!

It has nothing to do with anything but vetting them properly.

The end result of what I would like? The same exact number of immigrants (minus the handful that are criminals that might get sorted out) that we get illegally, only they are here legally now.

[Tribesman]

Your accusation is heavy, i dont think anyone here is promoting killing all muslims. But many probably would be ready create restrictions and laws to preserve our own cultural sphere and heritage.
Restrictions and laws against muslims for the preservation of culture and heritage.
That sounds exactly like the arguement put forward against the jews when introducing the nuremburg laws.
Yet obviously.......I just dont accept when these xenophobe and nazi labels start here.
....you can't see it just like Skybird doesn't see it when his writing is straight out of Mein Kampf.
Amazing isn't it:doh:



I had no idea that xenophobia was so widespread in Europe.
Unfortunately there is no cure for idiocy and that particular phobia is very infectious in people who don't think.

[TLAM Strike]

They culturally do have a tendency to allow stuff that was OK back in the day for that reason (look at the late date of eliminating slavery in the ME (late 1960s!).

Talking about Saudi and Dubi? Yea they were forced in the 60s to outlaw it but in some areas it is still practiced (mostly in Islamic Africa). A women in the UK was just charged with enslaving a woman from Tanzania. (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3132758/Victim-trafficked-in-first-modern-case.html)

[XabbaRus]

I remember saying to my wife in the customs line that it was cool that you could not tell the "US Citizens" line from the non-citizens line.


Wow must have changes since i last went to the US as you could easily see the difference between the two lines, one being that the line for non citizens had a sign above it saying 'aliens'

[NeonSamurai]

Actually, I think it is due to the fact that the United States is a nation of immigrants. Culturally, we are more accepting of the outsider, as we are more parts of a whole than a homogeneous population. More to the point, I find the underlying message of the article and the attitude displayed by some here to be particularly disgusting. When did SubSim become a platform for overt hatred?

You know I have to find that statement a ironic when looked at historically. The US was actually not based on open immigration and collectively tended to resist (and hate) the immigration of other groups, first it was the non protestant non Anglo-Saxons from Europe (the Irish, Italians, French, etc) then it was the Slavic countries and the Jews, and then the Asians (particularly the Chinese), Africans, Hispanics, etc.

Every single one of these groups triggered massive amounts of paranoia, hatred, racism, violence, oppression, etc. on arrival to the US. The United States was always historically a seething cauldron of hate of outsiders, and in many ways it's still there.

Which isn't to say that other countries are much better, as it is human nature to hate and fear that which is not like you. Some countries are just a bit better at concealing it (and some don't at all).


Now as for this concept of the Muslim problem. Honestly I wish that everyone would just get along and stop trying to force each other to their way of thinking, believing, whatever. Unfortunately that does not seem to be very likely to happen any time soon.

Anyhow here is a quick summary of the points I have issues with with the overall Muslim community as a whole.



The treatment of women. Needless to say a huge issue covering all kinds of points from forced FGM (genital mutilation), to women as property or non people.
The general lack of denouncing radical behavior and terrorist actions from certain sections of the Muslim community. From what I've seen some Muslims strongly denounce such stuff, many seem to remain silent (or quietly support it), and the rest are strongly in favor of it.
The colonization behavior. Large amounts of immigration + much higher birthing rates (6-10 to 1) + tendency to form large communities, gain numerical superiority, and then demand special rights like demanding sharia law = colonization.
Proselytizing and forced conversion. I have to admit I've never much cared for religions that like to put their views in everyone else's face and actively try to convert others. Actually it has always been one of those things that really ticks me off. Needless to say I want to take a bat to the head of anyone who thinks they have the right to force others to believe what they do.
All the stuff that has been going on in Africa, Asia, and parts of Europe. Colonizing, terrorism, forced conversion, and violence against non Muslims.
The tendency to demand the death of and attempt to kill anyone who dares disagree or speaks out. The propensity of violent behavior towards anyone different.
The aggressive violent behavior displayed by many young Muslims. Including honor killings, raping girls who do not dress in a way they consider proper, other violent crimes and actions, etc.
The hate speech propagated by many Muslim clerics and others against women, the west, Jews, and non Muslims in general

I could go on and in more detail. But I think that summarizes my main issues; issues that I feel are valid based on my own observations and investigations. This isn't to say that Muslims are the only group I have issues with (I have issues with just about every country, religion, and other groupings), they just tend to be towards the top of my list as far as egregious behavior. This also does not mean that I dislike all Muslims. I have met several who are good kind people that I got along well with.

[tater]

Wow must have changes since i last went to the US as you could easily see the difference between the two lines, one being that the line for non citizens had a sign above it saying 'aliens'

I meant the PEOPLE in the line. The lines were clearly labeled.