Your fav method of shooting.

[Armistead]

I know we all have our preference method of shooting, OKane, Vector, 8010:haha:, ect..what is yours?
So many talk of using them, but I seldom do. I once lived by these mehtods, moreso with contacts on. They work great on single ships, but face it, a single ship comes my way, I'll TC until it's at about 350 at 600 yards, stad it and shoot, never miss.

I seldom use any type OKane attack when attacking a TF. With contacts off it's really impossible. I am getting better with the new radar mod and using pause. Often I find it leaves me in a bad position. Cromwell certainly is how I will setup as I approach at a better angle, less likely to get pinged and able to turn my sterns into the mix, but still very limiting. With TMO, many times an outer escort will sense you before you can fire regardless of perfection of approach.

Mainly, in a TF or large convoy the ships I want may be in the worse position to use OKane type attacks. This is more of a problem with contacts off. Simply I may have to change direction several times while approaching submerged, dodging escorts and working into a decent shooting position, impossible to stay on a fixed course. Then you may have 30 seconds to fire, so it's usually a quick manual setup and shoot a spread by the wire.

[Sammi79]

I have played SH4 for 3-4 years now after spending even more time on SH3. I play only with full realism and use Lurkers fantastic Op Monsun Mod aswell as many personal modifications for real navigation, realistic deckgun etc.. with Karamazownevs scope measuring dial being the ultimate targetting tool. Upon sighting a vessel I watch its smoke trail for maybe a few minutes and then take a guess as to which way it is heading. I try to match course, at flank speed. Every few minutes I watch the smoke trail and adjust course, making marks on the map and with a little prediction and observation normally manage to get a pretty damn accurate idea of target position and heading. Then I continue ahead until the target is out of sight, turn 90 degrees toward the target and again using map marking and prediction try to stop where I think the target will pass in front of my boat at a distance of 1km and submerge.

Listening on sonar until target is within periscope visual again. The only help I use is the identify target, then finding in the recog manual the correct target dimensions measure the speed on the stopwatch and the AOB. At this point I may adjust to get a closer range and a more perpendicular shot unless I feel it is close enough to 90 within about 15-20 degrees. as the target aproaches, I listen on sonar until target is at about 60 degrees port or starboard. then periscope up, measure range, speed & AOB all within about 1 minute. periscope down. wait until 45 degrees on sonar then repeat every 10 degrees until consecutive measurements match new position then leave position keeper (or german equivalent) on and turn scope to show 90 degree impact normally at 5 or 10 degrees and wait scope down. depending on size of ship arm 1-3 torps and open tubes. wait for 15-20 degrees on sonar then scope up.

Aim at smokestack now at 15 degrees, fire 1. wait 5-10 secs, fire 2 etc... scope down. wait for impact. upon first hit am certain of consecutive hits. surface immediately and man deckgun. due to possibility of duds or ship not yet sunk, occasionally 5-10 rounds with deckgun before 'she's going down sir!' 90%+ hit rate with this method I don't know how you call it. with convoys, allways target biggest ship with 3 torps and smaller one with last tube. have to work alot quicker though and hit rate goes down, 60-70% i'd say. Also no surfacing rather a quick and deep dive then silent run, then the real game begins... the satisfaction is immense better then any other game i have ever played.:smug:

[Diopos]

Actually the problem is not the shooting method. The problem, for me at least, is knowing/getting target speed and course. Then you can "shift" firing methods as the actual situation dictates. If there is no flanking DD near by, O'Kane is great, if it is "out there" and a more "angled" approach is dictated, no problem as long as you have speed+course and the opportunity to fire before you get detected.
For convoys I must admit I am a victim of "auto targeting maximum tube utilization syndrome" (:D!). When I played on "auto" I tried to get "in" the convoy and perpendicular to its course. With "auto" you could "shoot the ducks" from both the bow and aft tubes and score a tonnage an actual WW2 skipper would need 6 months to get. You could get rammed during the attempt of course, but the game is soooo forgiving when it comes to that! After getting that bad habit, I still pursue the notion of trying to hit multiple targets in a convoy. 0-gyro angle torpedo firing allows for that as long as you know that god damn speed+course. I must admit though, that, eventually, many times I simply "stad" a target that seems more "hitable" and get the hell "outa there" as I am already pinged, and my target speed+course estimation was "rough".
So for me the "challenge" is not the actual shooting but having collected the appropriate and valid "numbers" (data) before. Now, I'm not sure if that's the mark of a good skipper or a typical accountant! :hmmm: And it is that aspect of the game I'm trying to "explore" (whenever I find the time).

.

[tomoose]

...to pretty much using the standard "by the book" techniques and tools that come with the boat. While I definitely sucked at the beginning I have become quite adept and have developed a knack for calculating (and tweaking) a target's speed and AOB. Part of my success I attribute to not focussing on hitting a specific point on the target but rather just hitting the target, LOL.

I play as "realistically" as possible and am quite satisfied if I return from a patrol with only one or two sinkings. I have never run out of fuel and I have had only minor damage from a delayed reaction to "aircraft spotted".

[NorthBeach]

The very few singles I am willing to expend a torp for are approached with the O'Kane in mind. For convoys and TFs I generally opt for a Cromwell, but, with ts carefully noted so that I have the VA lead angle on hand if it degenerates into needing it. There have been times, when feeling ambitious, where I'll go for multiples starting with a far reaching VA at 45deg (fast setting), followed by a Cromwell (slow) for a medium distance target, then a third with either of them depending on target position. On the rare occasion that I'm inside the convoy, I'll might try to swing the boat for an aft O'Kane. But, that rarely goes well after roiling up the water with 6 torps.

[Rockin Robbins]

On convoys I try to get a single shot off for the largest target from 2000 yards or under in TMO. Then I can actually get the shot off, turn tail and run before the escorts swarm me. Whether the shot hits or not, this pulls the escorts to my side of the convoy.

I'm exiting out the back at high speed to cross their sterns and do the end around to the unguarded side of the convoy. When I get there there's gonna be hell to pay!:D

[Armistead]

On convoys I try to get a single shot off for the largest target from 2000 yards or under in TMO. Then I can actually get the shot off, turn tail and run before the escorts swarm me. Whether the shot hits or not, this pulls the escorts to my side of the convoy.

I'm exiting out the back at high speed to cross their sterns and do the end around to the unguarded side of the convoy. When I get there there's gonna be hell to pay!:D


But Oh Master RR whose adivised us all, what methods do you use, any of your great designs, maybe 8010, please, we want to know. I assumed you would be king on OKane, Vector, but regardless of real life, do you really use these tools on TF to effect..Do you not find them ...limiting.

[Armistead]

The very few singles I am willing to expend a torp for are approached with the O'Kane in mind. For convoys and TFs I generally opt for a Cromwell, but, with ts carefully noted so that I have the VA lead angle on hand if it degenerates into needing it. There have been times, when feeling ambitious, where I'll go for multiples starting with a far reaching VA at 45deg (fast setting), followed by a Cromwell (slow) for a medium distance target, then a third with either of them depending on target position. On the rare occasion that I'm inside the convoy, I'll might try to swing the boat for an aft O'Kane. But, that rarely goes well after roiling up the water with 6 torps.


Man, that's some skill, I don't have the brains to go from one attack to the next in a matter of seconds, I envy those that can.

[Rockin Robbins]

But Oh Master RR whose adivised us all, what methods do you use, any of your great designs, maybe 8010, please, we want to know. I assumed you would be king on OKane, Vector, but regardless of real life, do you really use these tools on TF to effect..Do you not find them ...limiting.

I tend to be like you in that I expend my efforts in establishing enemy course and speed, then pick the trick that seems to fit best. Because it is a harder shot to avoid, because my default plan is to escape away and behind the convoy and because it is a bit more error tolerant than the Cromwell method I tend to take that first long distance shot with a Dick O'Kane approach. I've still been skunked by DDs detecting me before I can fire though!:D It happens with TMO: no guarantees there at all. Ain't that why we love it?

Here's the outcome of too many convoy approaches in TMO:

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/nninjahg7.gif
Fail!:har:

[Randomizer]

Vector analysis (#1) or Dick O'Kane but the others are always options. However, final targeting choice is always based on the current tactical situation and never drives the method of approach.

[Rockin Robbins]

Vector analysis sure is the most versatile method out there for zero gyro attacks. You know, straight fire shooting (gyro angles under 20º) are really important in mitigating possible range errors.

Even with conventional position keeper stadimeter setups, a low gyro angle can make your shooting just as accurate as Dick O'Kane, John P Cromwell or vector analysis attacks.

It's not which method you use, it's whether you shoot smart or just shoot! Heck, if you're close enough you can eyeball the lead angle and shoot the zero gyro without anything in the TDC at all. You'll get plenty of hits. A quarterback in American football (the ONLY kind. hehehehehe!) doesn't have a TDC and they still hit some of their targets.

[Armistead]

I tend to be like you in that I expend my efforts in establishing enemy course and speed, then pick the trick that seems to fit best. Because it is a harder shot to avoid, because my default plan is to escape away and behind the convoy and because it is a bit more error tolerant than the Cromwell method I tend to take that first long distance shot with a Dick O'Kane approach. I've still been skunked by DDs detecting me before I can fire though!:D It happens with TMO: no guarantees there at all. Ain't that why we love it?

Here's the outcome of too many convoy approaches in TMO:

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/nninjahg7.gif
Fail!:har:

I'm not smart with all of this. Like a previos poster going from OKane to Cromwell to Vector all in one attack. Not sure how you set that up, unless you just put yourself so the bearing required is right then subtract.


Thinking it through can it not be possible to do OKane, ect..without drawing any lines at all, just have yourself at the right bearing whatever and subtract for aob and shoot by the wire..make sense. That being you already have speed.

I find it difficult to pull off such attacks with contacts off.

[reignofdeath]

Slight question? could some one please explain each of the tactics to me?? as I have yet to get the game and would like to know the different firing approaches and tactics on TF and lone ships.

[NorthBeach]

One of the things I took to heart as I have been lurking, for the most part, for the past couple of years, it the importance of getting course and speed of the target down as precisely as possible. The more solid the data, the more solid the solution. :know:

Armistead- Switching between methods isn't really as hard as it sounds. Hundreds of reps imprint the aob/range & bearing changes that need to be made in the TDC. One thing that helps is, long ago, I figured out the lead angles for targets running at 6kts to 30kts for both fast (46kts) and slow (31kts) torp speeds. Printed them out, laminated them, and keep it nearby. That said, the Pacific is full of unexpended metal tubes sitting on the bottom with my name on them. :D

RR- The reason I set up for convoys and TFs using Cromwell is YOU! You clued me into the End Around. It didn't take a wedgie from the Admiral to figure out the advantages of being on the opposite side of the convoy as the escorts. I figured if I could get the first volley off with my boat already pointed half way toward the rear of the convoy, I can beat feet to rear that much faster.

[Armistead]

One of the things I took to heart as I have been lurking, for the most part, for the past couple of years, it the importance of getting course and speed of the target down as precisely as possible. The more solid the data, the more solid the solution. :know:

Armistead- Switching between methods isn't really as hard as it sounds. Hundreds of reps imprint the aob/range & bearing changes that need to be made in the TDC. One thing that helps is, long ago, I figured out the lead angles for targets running at 6kts to 30kts for both fast (46kts) and slow (31kts) torp speeds. Printed them out, laminated them, and keep it nearby. That said, the Pacific is full of unexpended metal tubes sitting on the bottom with my name on them. :D

RR- The reason I set up for convoys and TFs using Cromwell is YOU! You clued me into the End Around. It didn't take a wedgie from the Admiral to figure out the advantages of being on the opposite side of the convoy as the escorts. I figured if I could get the first volley off with my boat already pointed half way toward the rear of the convoy, I can beat feet to rear that much faster.


Not so sure about that. Seems to me it would be hard to do an OKane attack, then next ship a Cromwell, the next Vector. For one you're in the edge of the TF, next you would have to pull off each attack before the first torp hit. No way you could go to your map and set up the different angles in that brief matter of seconds. The only way I see possible is to eyeball each attack, and then from whatever bearing, subtract to get your AOB and fire.

Not sure what you mean by figuring out lead angles. I assume you mean the standard lead angles used in OKane/Cromwell based on if a ship is going fast or slow, probably the little chart RR has long had for each attack. I don't see how that has any bearing on pulling off these 3 methods basically at the same time. As stated the only possible way I see is to set a new bearing , probably wouldn't put you on a 90 or 45 degree line, then set your AOB and try to shoot at 10-15 degrees in front of the bearing you set. Technically the maddness would work no matter what your approach is, but it wouldn't be a true OKane or Cromwell attack. Highly unlikely each ship would just fall in place that you could do one method after the other

Why these attack methods are sound, great for singles or small groups with just a few escorts, they can fix you along a path that may run you right in front of a DD.

[NorthBeach]

RR provided THREE charts. One for O'Kane, one for Cromwell, and one (Vector Analysis Attack Rules) that provides the formula for finding the precise lead angle for a ship going ANY speed. You can also figure out those angles using one of Solution Solver's tools.

I can easily combine O'Kane/VA or Cromwell/VA. O'Kane/Cromwell? Not so much. I set Cromwell/VA up at 45deg (ish). The only time I enter O'Kane into a Cromwell/VA attack mix is if I feel confident (or am delusional) about using it in an aft attack, swinging the boat into a 90deg, for a last shot in the salvo. The success rate for that is reeeeeeeeealy low as I've made a lot of noise and roiled up a lot of water letting loose the 6 bow shots. The only time I consult with the map is IF I consider trying an aft O'Kane attack, to locate the target. And, I only do that after I've sent my 45deg course change to the helm.

I guess I use a bastardization of the Cromwell. Because if I have a confirmed target speed of say 14kts. I'll use 17deg as my lead angle, just as I would for a VA attack. And, set the aob for 28deg.

Note: The actual lead angle for a 14kt target with a 45deg aob using a Mk14 set at 46kts is 15.5deg. I always round up as well as adding a degree of lead to compensate for being old and slow, as well as a slight delay from giving launch command and the actual launch.

[Armistead]

RR provided THREE charts. One for O'Kane, one for Cromwell, and one (Vector Analysis Attack Rules) that provides the formula for finding the precise lead angle for a ship going ANY speed. You can also figure out those angles using one of Solution Solver's tools.

I can easily combine O'Kane/VA or Cromwell/VA. O'Kane/Cromwell? Not so much. I set Cromwell/VA up at 45deg (ish). The only time I enter O'Kane into a Cromwell/VA attack mix is if I feel confident (or am delusional) about using it in an aft attack, swinging the boat into a 90deg, for a last shot in the salvo. The success rate for that is reeeeeeeeealy low as I've made a lot of noise and roiled up a lot of water letting loose the 6 bow shots. The only time I consult with the map is IF I consider trying an aft O'Kane attack, to locate the target. And, I only do that after I've sent my 45deg course change to the helm.

I guess I use a bastardization of the Cromwell. Because if I have a confirmed target speed of say 14kts. I'll use 17deg as my lead angle, just as I would for a VA attack. And, set the aob for 28deg.


That makes a lil more sense, workable, but probably not my preferred maddness, although close enough.

[razark]

Slight question? could some one please explain each of the tactics to me?? as I have yet to get the game and would like to know the different firing approaches and tactics on TF and lone ships.
Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795) thread contains a lot of info.

Quick Reference (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1007637&postcount=204) to some of the techniques.

[reignofdeath]

Aye thank you. even with the graphics however i still dont understand the attacks. at least Vector analysis i do: You do calculations, fire a torpedo straight to meet said boat at point

but the other two. Im guessing those are shots by using the gyro or something?? im not sure,

(Wishes he would have paid more attention in geometry and trig now :dead:)

[razark]

Aye thank you. even with the graphics however i still dont understand the attacks. at least Vector analysis i do: You do calculations, fire a torpedo straight to meet said boat at point

but the other two. Im guessing those are shots by using the gyro or something?? im not sure,

(Wishes he would have paid more attention in geometry and trig now :dead:)
The goal is to shoot the fish with a 0 gyro angle. General idea behind both Cromwell and Dick O'Kane is to figure out what bearing the ship will be on when the gyro angle is 0. You only need to know speed and AoB to figure this, as the range factors out of the calculation. You set the TDC to the bearing, speed, and AoB, and it calculates the gyro angle. Point the scope at that bearing, wait and watch the target through the scope. As it passes the wire, you shoot and the torpedo hits the part the scope was aimed at.

[Rockin Robbins]

First, keep in mind that Cromwell and Dick O'Kane will not generally give you a perfect zero gyro. That doesn't matter because the US Navy considered any shot under a 20º gyro angle to be "straight fire" and range mattered very very little. A couple of degrees, even 10 degrees of gyro angle is meaningless and we worry ourselves without possible gain about obtaining that exact zero gyro.

Now on changing from one method to another. You have very little choice but to change in order from a technique further in front of the convoy to one back further. Let's say you're doing a Cromwell attack from 45º ahead. A DD jumps you from nowhere or the target switches course and you have to bail out.

Well the convoy is not to you yet! You have plenty of time to set up for a Dick O'Kane or split the difference between a 45º and 90º attack with a vector analysis approach. This could give you three different chances to shoot before the convoy passes you.

If you blow the Dick O'Kane attack you have a very little time to set up a vector analysis from slightly behind the target's beam, but keep in mind that their speed now actually slows down the approach speed of the torpedo to the target. It will be easier to avoid your shot, but if it's all you have, fire away. A shot not taken never hits.

So no, you can't bail out of a Dick O'Kane and quickly set up for a John P Cromwell attack because that implies pulling out beyond visual range and taking a fast surface charge ahead of the convoy to achieve a position 45º ahead. Depending on the speed of the convoy that could take hours.

Another situation where I'll bail out of the constant bearing attacks altogether is where I've shot and the convoy scatters. Chaos has broken out. They've accelerated to 12 knots or so, none of them is on a course 90 or 45º from yours and you've got to decide what to do. It's time to use the conventional stadimeter/position keeper attack for non-standard angles because you don't have time to position yourself for any of the constant bearing tactics. You have to shoot very soon or lose the opportunity.

Constant bearing attacks are for a target unaware of your existence. You set up the TDC up to half an hour before the attack. Then you exert all your energy into positioning your submarine at the correct angle to the target track and at a close enough range to guarantee hits. Because you know everything about the target and have the TDC already set up you do this maneuvering with periscope down with no possibility of detection. Before your scope ever breaks the surface you're ready to shoot when the target crosses the wire! Sonar bearing means you raise the scope seconds before you fire. Might as well start baking that victory cake. He's on the bottom already and he just doesn't know it yet.

[Dignan]

Been reading this thread today and find it very helpful as I am in the process of teaching myself these new techniques. Rockin Robbins, I've viewed your Okane tutorial many times. Very well done and I think I've got the hang of it. I have several questions though.

1. Is there a "recommended range" to be at with the Dick Okane method?

I first employed it last night on my current patrol. I encountered a large TF and set up for an Okane attack but had to limit my distance from target track to about 2100 yards. Not ideal. I launched three torps at a cruiser and all missed. I THINK they missed because it was about noon, the water was like glass and I think they spotted the torpedoes in the water and sped up. Was I too far away for the okane method to work? In retrospect, I probably should have used the stadimeter and position keeper as this convoy had a lot of escorts and waiting for a 90 degree angle shot put me at undue risk of "getting dead" as I had to quickly exit the area.

2. Is the lead angle you choose on the okane attack completely arbitrary as long as the AOB angle you enter into the TDC matches that angle?

For example if I have a target coming at me from left to right and choose to lock my scope at 350 degrees (10 less than 0 degrees) then I just have to ensure the AOB is set to 80 degrees (ship pointing left to right. 90 - 10 = 80), correct? Assuming the speed is correct and I've set range/bearing as you instructed in the video this should work right?

I'm getting back into SH4 after about a year with it on the shelf and am really enjoying it again especially when learning these new tactics. Thanks for your great tutorials.

[NorthBeach]

Dignan- You had lousy shooting conditions to shoot from that far away. In my experience, if you loose one a few degs forward you might get him to keep from hitting the gas. But, he'll likely change course on you. So, you'll want to group the rest of the salvo rather tightly because of his narrowing aspect. That would be true for any method you're setting up.

#2- Correct. Although, I prefer not to have my fish chase a target. If you set up for an earlier shot (greater AOB), you have the opportunity to adjust and try again. Or, select another target that isn't steaming away from you at 5/5.