View Full Version : Pastor weighing plans to burn Qurans amid U.S. warnings
(CNN) -- The pastor of a Florida church planning to burn Qurans told CNN Tuesday while the congregation plans to go through with the action to protest the September 11, 2001 attack on the United States by al Qaeda, the church is "weighing" its intentions.
Terry Jones, pastor of Dove World Outreach Church in Gainesville, Florida, who was interviewed on CNN's "American Morning, said the congregation is taking seriously the warning from the U.S. military that the act could cause problems for American troops.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/US/09/07/florida.quran.burning/index.html?hpt=T2
Note:September 7, 2010 Updated 1415 GMT
AVGWarhawk
09-07-10, 01:55 PM
What they should have done instead of spending money on copies of the Quran and Bic lighters was going out into his community using the money for something more purposeful....like feeding those in need.
Kind of ironic...World Outreach Church....yeah sure...:shifty:
The Third Man
09-07-10, 02:16 PM
I'm not impressed by the World Outreach Church's actions but as an exercise of rights it is no more dispicable than building a mosque close to ground zero.
Also I am of the opinion that this will not place US troops or US citizensin in any more danger than they are already exposed to, exhibited by the multiple deaths by airplanes as bombs, beheadings, and explosive attacks.
SteamWake
09-07-10, 03:05 PM
I dont get what they plan to accomplish by doing this other than pepole getting pissed off.
Kind of like the Mosque at ground zero.
Both are stupid ideas.
I dont get what they plan to accomplish by doing this other than pepole getting pissed off.
Kind of like the Mosque at ground zero.
Both are stupid ideas.
This.
Again, there is ZERO question that they are protected in their right to burn any book they like—by the same Amendment that protects the mosque-builder near the World Trade Center site. The question was never one of legality, but propriety. The difference is funny, actually. The mosque builder claimed it was a positive thing to build the mosque there—and it's not positive. The church nuts could only want to burn the koran to be offensive.
I can see good reason to burn some korans—simply to demonstrate that it is no different than any other book. It may be destroyed, and doing so is a protected right. How about burning it along with some bibles—heck, throw in some Richard Dawkins to make the fundies happy. The purpose would be freedom of expression, not anythign else.
Platapus
09-07-10, 05:38 PM
I don't agree with the premise of the following. but I do like the way he wrote his position.
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2010/9/7/899737/-Americans-Dont-Burn-Books
Americans Don't Burn Books.
by jamesboyce (http://jamesboyce.dailykos.com/)
Tue Sep 07, 2010 at 07:03:02 AM PDT
Enough is enough. Enough with the bigotry and the hate. Enough with the race-baiting and the fake debate about the Ground Zero Mosque. Enough of white Americans putting up fences to keep their fellow humans out. Enough of the birthers.
Enough is enough. Enough with the bigotry and the hate. Enough with the race-baiting and the fake debate about the Ground Zero Mosque. Enough of white Americans putting up fences to keep their fellow humans out. Enough of the birthers.
Enough of Christian hypocrites who thump their Bibles while denying men and women the right to marry the one they love. Enough of conservatives holding up the Constitution having never actually read it and preaching about one nation under God and also denying that every American has the right to worship the God of their choosing.
Enough of Progressives and Democrats who engage in these debates rather than attack these bigoted racist hypocrites. Enough of the hate-mongers getting all the attention and press.
You have to draw the line somewhere. Guess what? Now's the time.
You are entitled to your own opinion, after all, this is America and there is Freedom of Speech. But just as important, there is freedom of worship. Because of our freedoms, there, ironically, is the freedom to burn books. However.
Because we are Americans, because we defend and fight and preserve the right of free speech, because we have seen what happens in countries who don't defend these freedoms, we do not burn books. Let me repeat that.
Americans Don't Burn Books. (https://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/5955/p/salsa/web/common/public/content?content_item_KEY=4330)
(https://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/5955/p/salsa/web/common/public/content?content_item_KEY=4330)
We print books that maybe you don't people want to read. We print books filled with hate. We print and print and print books of all kinds, but we don't burn books. By defending everyone's right to speak, we defend our right to speak. By defending everyone's right to their own religion, we defend our own right to our own religion.
We have gone to war with people who do burn books; Adolph Hitler comes to mind. Stalin. Pol Pot. There are others. Our military graveyards are full of the men and women who protected us, who gave their lives for us. Not one soldier has ever died, so we could burn books.
Americans Don't Burn Books. (https://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/5955/p/salsa/web/common/public/content?content_item_KEY=4330)
(https://salsa.wiredforchange.com/o/5955/p/salsa/web/common/public/content?content_item_KEY=4330)
And we especially don't burn the books of another person's religion.
You may or may not believe in the Bible, but if you think the Bible is the worst book in the world, as an American, you don't have to read it, you don't have to believe, no one can force you to or hold it against you if you don't, but you can not burn the Bible.
You may or may not believe in what is in the Torah. You may think the Torah is the worst book in the world, as an American, you don't have to read it, you don't have to believe it, no one can force you to, or hold it against you if you don't but you can not burn the Torah.
Buddhist books, Pagan books, Hindu books. You can't burn them.
And you can't burn the Koran.
You may or may not believe in what is in the Koran. You may think the Koran is the worst book in the world, as an American, you don't have to read it, you don't have to believe it, no one can force you to, or hold it against you if you don't but you can not burn the Koran.
I salute my friends at Human Rights First who are standing up against the bigots who would burn the Koran on 9/11
While I like how he felt, I still believe that people do have the right to burn books they own. Americans have the freedom to do many stupid and irrational things. While I find the idea of burning books stupid and irrational and abhorrent, I will support stupid and irrational people burning books that they own.
In the America I love, even the stupid people have rights. :yep:
Takeda Shingen
09-07-10, 05:41 PM
In the America I love, even the stupid people have rights. :yep:
That pretty much sums up my view on First Amendment rights.
The Third Man
09-07-10, 05:42 PM
I think the man SkyBird has posted often on this subject. He is correct.
I had trouble even reading that screed.
Bookstores have some period when they celebrate "banned books." Least they do here. My brother in law used to do the windows for the store he worked in to pay his way through college.
The United States doesn't ban books. True. That would be against the First Amendment. The government shall not...
The people, OTOH, they can do whatever the hell they feel like.
We have gone to war with people who do burn books; Adolph Hitler comes to mind. Stalin. Pol Pot. There are others.
He seems to miss the point that those are not people, they are States. A government burning books is entirely different than people burning books. A state compels people to burn books (or not own them) on pain of death or loss of liberty. That's all the difference in the world.
Wonder how the kos people reacted to the artistic equivalent of burning the koran—putting a cross in a jar of piss, for example? I'd be interested to know, since the left can always be counted on to defend first principles for Islam, but never for the religion they really hate, Christianity.
Note I have no dog in the fight, being an atheist.
I'll bring the marshmellows.......
I'll bring the marshmellows.......
I'd imagine the burning ink would give them a bad taste :)
Maybe they could burn eco-korans made with soy ink?
I'd imagine the burning ink would give them a bad taste :)
?
Yea, you are proberly right, I will just stay home. LOL Proberly a good idea too as I would not be a bit surprised if a group of radical muslims show up with bombs and machine guns.....:o
Takeda Shingen
09-07-10, 06:04 PM
Proberly a good idea too as I would not be a bit surprised if a group of radical muslims show up with bombs and machine guns.....:o
I'd be very surprised if that happened.
I'd be very surprised if that happened.
Yeah, so unlikely as to be nearly absurd.
That said, people getting killed elsewhere (out of US) because of it? Not unlikely at all.
Takeda Shingen
09-07-10, 06:27 PM
That said, people getting killed elsewhere (out of US) because of it? Not unlikely at all.
I would agree that this would be extreemly likely. Not a good time to go hiking on the Pakistani border.
I know it wont happen, but if it did, lets say, I will never doubt anything "couldn't" happen after 9-11. :know:
I would agree that this would be extreemly likely. Not a good time to go hiking on the Pakistani border.
Oddly enough, they usually kill each other. Or their neighbors, anyway.
All we hear from terror-associated groups like CAIR is to worry about "islamophobia" or mistreatment of muslims. They slaughter Americans wholesale on 9-11, and what happens? Pogroms? Nope, nothing. Imams get invited to the WH to lead prayers. Meanwhile, cartoons are published, and they riot and kill back home.
Bottom line is that the worst anti-muslim in the West is only likely to engage in rhetoric, not violence---or even threats of violence. The same cannot be said in reverse, where freedom of expression--in free countries--gets people murdered (Theo van Gogh, for example, or fatwas against Rushdie).
Blood_splat
09-07-10, 07:56 PM
These church members better be careful because they might lose their heads over this. Look at the crazy guy who stabbed a Muslim cab driver over the building of the Mosque. And that was only one crazy guy, think of all the radical Muslims who might snap.
Castout
09-07-10, 08:03 PM
These church members better be careful because they might lose their heads over this. Look at the crazy guy who stabbed a Muslim cab driver over the building of the Mosque. And that was only one crazy guy, think of all the radical Muslims who might snap.
And perhaps it would not just the Americans that would be in most and immediate danger.
We've got a lot of those radicals Muslim here with their organizations that I guess would love to burn some bibles or even some church buildings, the authorities are being soft with these radicals though many moderates condemn them through the media.
Aramike
09-07-10, 08:26 PM
Whether or not the burning is "right" aside, the fact that it would indeed incite many in the Muslim world to violence is the overarching problem here.
The Third Man
09-07-10, 08:27 PM
You are all in imenent danger from Islam. You just don't realize it.
Whether or not the burning is "right" aside, the fact that it would indeed incite many in the Muslim world to violence is the overarching problem here.
True.
There are countless examples of other religions being besmirched by someone or another, and the incidence of church-sponsored death threats, much less credible threats or actual attempts is virtually nil by other religions.
Are there nuts of other religions? Sure. Are there atheist nuts? Sure. Islam is over-represented in the violent nuts category.
The Third Man
09-07-10, 09:18 PM
Let them burn what ever they wish. That is the difference between liberty and tyranny,
Tribesman
09-08-10, 01:38 AM
You are all in imenent danger from Islam. You just don't realize it.
:har::har::har::har::har::har:
Chicken Little
Aramike
09-08-10, 01:53 AM
Click "View Post" once on someone on ignore and what do I get?:har::har::har::har::har::har:
Chicken Little I see your intellectual capacity for debate is still limited by the amount of emoticons permitted by forum rules. And while I *may* agree with what you are *implying* in principle, let's just say I'm not suprised by your typical "smilie" response. In fact, its quite common knowledge in these forums that you are actually incapable of stating a position supported by logical reason and would rather either resort to a series of "smilies" or vague questions which you can disavow as indicative of an actual opinion.
It's kind of funny that someone who's clearly an intellectual lightweight actually continues on as though he's not. But what's actually hilarious is the condescending manner in which he does so. (By the way, that means YOU, in case the context manages to escape you as usual.)
Alas, my apologies for clicking on "view post" and letting this repetitive troll incite me once again. Back to discussing issues with people who actually have a grasp of them and don't pretend that they are educated in every subject that ever existed.
Oh wait, I almost forgot... :har::har::har::har::har::har:
Skybird
09-08-10, 04:09 AM
Merely symbolic acts like public book burnings, or parades, are not my cup of tea. However, it frustrates me to see in just another public debate that once again Islam is allowed to be judged by a set of special standards, putting it above all others.
When "they" burn western flags or law books or symbols of Western culture in Muslim countries, close churches and discriminate christian minorities systematically, then nobody here raises just one eyebrow. If now a church community claims the same right for itself and wants to burn Islamic symbols and has said that by this it wants to illustrate to the Islamic world how it feels for us what in islamic countries is common habit, so that they get a taste of their own medicine - then it suddenly is a major affair, and everybody jumps up and is yelling, and the Gutmenschen climb out of their holes and warn of making a stand in the name of western tradition and not to provoke the bully and that we should not confront the violent and the hysteric and the intolerant in self-defence, but appease them and flee from them and leave them what they want: more, and more, and more.
On Patreus'S comment, I only say this. Thinking he can negotiate lasting results with a fanatical religious enemy, is careless, to put it mildy. I use to have a good opinion of Patreus, I think he is one of the most intelligent and smartest generals in the military, as far as names made it to the headlines over the past 10 or 15 years. But to warn of putting up a perception challenge to and not appeasing Islam due to his - armed, I suppose - troops in his army might be attacked, leaves me speechless. Of an army I expect to defend itself and to be capable of shooting back with effect.
The hysterics will still be there, no matter whether you burn Qurans or not. the self-righteous sentiment in the muslim wqorld will still be there. The supremacist claim will still be there. The non-negotiable will to dominate will still be there.
As I see it, I neither applaud the planned Quran burning, nor do I object to it. I see no big deal in it - just a demonstration of behavior that is based on reciprocity. Those chruch-people wantt to do what the Islamicn world is constantoly doing. So what's the issue? If islam clerics and masses can call for the assassination of Islam critics and cartoonists and burn Western symbols all the time - why shouldn't we be allowed to burn Islamic symbols, then? Same standards for everyone - no special standards for Islam. If that makes them pumping up their blood pressure until their heads pop open - very well. the more they kill themselves in streeets riots and "public anger", the better. The fewer hysterics like this there are, the better for all the rest of the world. And if they turn violent against others instead against themselves - then why not shooting back.
Reciprocity. We are constantly on the defence, all time long willing to fall back one step, and another step, and one more step, and then more steps. since 50 years we deliver respect and and deeds installing Islam in the West - we did it all in advance, but in general the Muslim world did not trade back on equal terms: it took our deeds and acts as if they were natural, and it answered by just raising even more demands. what we understod to be an invitation for coexistence and "dialogue", it took as an invitation to go on the offensive once again and go for it all. that is no tolerance and coexistence, that is no reciprocal repoly to our invitation. So why not answer in a reciprocal way to their ways of doing?
In the end, it comes down to this: burning Qurans in no way is even close to be as bad and evil as is assassinating critics of islam or demanding their execution, killing apostates, declaring the female half of mankind a subordinate slave race, punishing rape victims for being raped, having stoning as death penalty, and demanding the subjugation of all who are not already submitting to this primitive and barbaric totalitarianism. Who speaks nice and kind of Islam, not only ignores these crimes and barbaric acts being carried out, but even ridicules the victims and minimises the courage of every Muslim-born man and women daring to resist this, criticising this, and refusing to obey this barbarism any longer at the price of risking their lives, and loosing their family's social context. And leaving them alone while embracing the evil they stand up against, by the standards of our western ethics and our moral self-claims is a treacherous and cowardly act worth of utmost detestation.
What they should have done instead of spending money on copies of the Quran and Bic lighters was going out into his community using the money for something more purposeful....like feeding those in need.
Kind of ironic...World Outreach Church....yeah sure...:shifty:
Couldnt agree more.
That is just low, very provocative and can achieve no positive outcome, I dont think I've even heard of any radical muslims burning Bibles?
I know, they have burnt U.S British and Swedish flags to name a few, (flag burning is equally retarded tbh)
Couldnt agree more.
...... I dont think Ive even heard of any radical muslims burning bibles?......)
No they dont....usually they are smarter than that...
A Florida church's threat to burn copies of the Koran to mark the September 11 attacks has been condemned by Hillary Clinton as "disrespectful" and "disgraceful".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7988506/911-Koran-burning-disrespectful-and-disgraceful-Hillary-Clinton-says.html
Note:Published: 8:00AM BST 08 Sep 2010
When "they" burn western flags or law books or symbols of Western culture in Muslim countries, close churches and discriminate christian minorities systematically, then nobody here raises just one eyebrow.
Fact is, people are most concerned with what is going on in there own backyard before they worry about what happens abroad.
Look at your average news broadcast or paper, unless there is something huge going on, (war/terrorism/disaster.) Home affairs get reported first or on the front page, overseas stuff afterwards.
Now then, if a Western based Mosque was burning bibles, flags or whatever, you dont think that would stir up the same controversy?
Look at the ground Zero mosque, its a mosque 2 blocks fromt he site and everyone is up in arms, its MUCH bigger story than the Koran burning idiots.
The attitude just falls short of an 'eye for an eye': aka: its ok because some muslims burnt stuff in the past.
Do most muslims burn flags and western documents or is just a handful of extreamist Idiots?
When you burn a holy book or flag, you insult EVERYONE under that faith or nation.
Your problem Skybird is that you keep treating Islam as if it just one voice and one mind.
Your view of "us and them" only tells me that your mentality is little different from the radicals we hate/fear so much.
Also it this particular case, these guys are hurting Christians more than Islam, stunts like this only give most good christians a bad name.
Just as 9/11 gave most good Muslims a bad name. Although the scale of the two acts is incomparable, the priniciple remains the same.
I know it wont happen, but if it did, lets say, I will never doubt anything "couldn't" happen after 9-11. :know:
+1.
The day political correctness died.
"Pastor", eh...
Actually, I'd say once you start proclaiming that you're a true believer, the forgiveness course is always the one to follow.
I'd like to know if any family member off the 2752 persons who died in the attacks on the World Trade Center feel anything else than mercy for this so-called "Pastor" who pretends to be righteous burning some book, whereas it's going to be no more than a public show of resentment.
Couldnt agree more.
That is just low, very provocative and can achieve no positive outcome, I dont think I've even heard of any radical muslims burning Bibles?
I know, they have burnt U.S British and Swedish flags to name a few, (flag burning is equally retarded tbh)
Man, I had never heard of these facts. :-?
Sometimes I'm just happy to say that I almost don't watch TV, ROFL.
Fact is, people are most concerned with what is going on in there own backyard before they worry about what happens abroad.
Look at your average news broadcast or paper, unless there is something huge going on, (war/terrorism/disaster.) Home affairs get reported first or on the front page, overseas stuff afterwards.
Now then, if a Western based Mosque was burning bibles, flags or whatever, you dont think that would stir up the same controversy?
Yes, probably. OTOH, Western mosques routinely give money or support to people who burn American flags all the time. They give money to people who danced happily in the streets to celebrate 9-11 (the day it happened). So they get a pass for outsourcing, I guess.
They are not sanctioned at all for it. Heck, they might get dinner at the WH.
Skybird
09-08-10, 09:02 AM
Fact is, people are most concerned with what is going on in there own backyard before they worry about what happens abroad.
Look at your average news broadcast or paper, unless there is something huge going on, (war/terrorism/disaster.) Home affairs get reported first or on the front page, overseas stuff afterwards.
Obviously that is very different in the global Ummah. If something "anti-Islamic" is happening in let'S say Denmark, or America, then on the other side of the planet and all abroad crowds hystaericall yell in the streets "death to the West" and "Shariah law for Wetsern heretics" or whatever. Even the most unimportant scallywag (=Tunichtsgut) in a small village on the dark side of the moon thinks he must shout is anger and how ver ymuch offended he is intot he face of Earth, the sky above, and let all universe know.
the collective of theUmmha, the one and the only there is ;), works wonderfully when it is about opposition to islam (that'S why muhammad designed it as unified and totalitarian as it is). Just when their dear brither and sister in Islam are getting hit by lets say a natural disaster, all of a sudden the collective passivity and desinterst breaks out, since it is just the punishmenet by angry Allah and thus well-deserved. Let the stuoid Wetserners pay for it, and spend your money better on bulding more oques in the West, infiltrate the West with just more "culture centres", or even directly finance Islamic terrorism.
The attitude just falls short of an 'eye for an eye': aka: its ok because some muslims burnt stuff in the past.
I thiunk of it as "ater 50 years, finally let them taste their own medicine". What is sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.
Do most muslims burn flags and western documents or is just a handful of extreamist Idiots?[{quote]
Having attended rallies in Algeria, Egypt and Iran myself, I must tell you that on such occasions the enthusiasm for such things is grabbing streets and streets full of crowds.
[quote]
When you burn a holy book or flag, you insult EVERYONE under that faith or nation.
and still we react not to them doing it in their countries, but in their half of the world they take it upon them to go ballistic when we do something in our home countries that is perfectly conformal with pour rules and habits.
Your problem Skybird is that you keep treating Islam as if it just one person.
Your view of "us and them" only tells me that your mentality is little different to the radicals you hate so much.
I treat islam as an ideology that educates people to behave aggressive, violent and barbaric, and to stay hilariously stupid at the same time. It is a brutal, aggressive ideology, it is not an ideology glorifying peace and freedom and tolerance. The totalitarianism in it aims at controlling human life absolutely, by dogma ruling and regulating every aspect of life - of the individual'S, of the family's, of the local community's, of the country, the global ummah. And if I check history against this, then I see history by a general trend confirming this since a thousand years. Due to it's totalitarian nature, unity is enfoced, and by nity comes strength and an incredible resistence. That'S why for example Turkey after decades of pretended secularism now falls back to the religious for whom politics and religion are just two words for one and the same thing: total, absolute control and patriarchalic power. Islam does not distinct between politics and religion, but it is more politics than it is religion; it slept a while, and now woke up and takes back the country - if it is not pushing Turkey into a civil war, which is a possible threat that indeed is a realistic option.
You could learn so very much by exmaining closely what is going in in turkey since the fundamentalists took over the government, and now step by step systemtically islamise it again. A good and recent report on it you can find here, by a Turkish author who is member of the (more and more obviously supressed) opposition while the society turns more and more into a surveillance state.
http://www.welt.de/debatte/kommentare/article9459367/Die-Tuerkei-wird-nie-eine-westliche-Demokratie.html?print=true#reqdrucken
A lot can and must be learned from this coup d'etat that the AKP de facto has initiated, with the ultimate goal to erode and finally completely dismantle the heritage of Attaturk, and replacing democracy with a theocracy (I repeatedly said that Erdoghan even says that loud and clear, and this author also refers to him). Especially must be learned that it is not just one event, one day or one week of events, but a process of creepingly, slowly, silently taking over the country over years, absuing democracy and it's rules to legitimate newly institutionalised rule of islam and its values so that there will not be objections fom the stupid EU - and when it is installed, abandoning democracy. And this must be the wakeup call for the West, finally - becasue in Germany, England, the Netherlands, Sweden, also america (though currently lacking behind a bit), comparable developements are going on. The Eu calls on Turkey to cut back the constitutional role of the military which is the only thing standing between attaturk and theocracy. By doing so, the EU directly assists in establishing a Turkish theocracy.
Süper.
SteamWake
09-08-10, 09:30 AM
A Florida church's threat to burn copies of the Koran to mark the September 11 attacks has been condemned by Hillary Clinton as "disrespectful" and "disgraceful".
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/7988506/911-Koran-burning-disrespectful-and-disgraceful-Hillary-Clinton-says.html
Note:Published: 8:00AM BST 08 Sep 2010
and whats your point?
I rarely agree with Ms. Clinton but this is one of those times.
I treat islam as an ideology that educates people to behave aggressive, violent and barbaric, and to stay hilariously stupid at the same time. It is a brutal, aggressive ideology, it is not an ideology glorifying peace and freedom and tolerance.
I guess these muslims are uneducated then....
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2010/09/05/american-muslims-nervous-about-ramadans-end-coinciding-with-911/
Seriously though, If thats your view mate then I feel sorry for you, end of story.
However, thanks for not posting a wall of selective Quaran quotes in your reply.
Skybird
09-08-10, 09:47 AM
What shall that link tell us?
Whatever, to define one statement with more precision, of course Muslim-born people can become educated, and clever. However, it is not that they have become that due to following the rules of sharia for becoming superior beings, or the enlightening wisdom of the Quran - but despite the Shariah and the Quran.
What shall that link tell us?
Whatever, to define one statement with more precision, of course Muslim-born people can become educated, and clever. However, it is not that they have become that due to following the rules of sharia for becoming superior beings, or the enlightening wisdom of the Quran - but despite the Shariah and the Quran.
I'd worry more about what that statment shall tell us about yourself ^
but 'Whatever' indeed....
Tchocky
09-08-10, 10:44 AM
Saw this on the Daily Mash, made me laugh - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/us-church-to-commemorate-9%1111-by-causing-another-one-201009083071/
Saw this on the Daily Mash, made me laugh - http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/international/us-church-to-commemorate-9%1111-by-causing-another-one-201009083071/
lol - but very silly :)
and whats your point?
I rarely agree with Ms. Clinton but this is one of those times. she should not have made any statement at all
Tribesman
09-08-10, 12:11 PM
Click "View Post" once on someone on ignore and what do I get?
Hello aramike, have you learnt what context means yet?
:har::har::har::har::har:
(By the way, that means YOU, in case the context manages to escape you as usual.)
Hey plenty of people pointed out that the statement you took issue with couldn't mean what you said it meant once it was placed in context.
Glad to see you're still in a hissy fit over it
Intellectual lightweight
:har::har::har::har:
em2nought
09-08-10, 12:22 PM
Easy solution - send Iran that which it seeks, but not in the particular way that it seeks it. Worked with Japanese, will work with Islam. :yeah:
If we don't have the stomach to do that, then we should get out the region entirely and offer Israel a strip of land on our southern border. lol
Tribesman
09-08-10, 12:22 PM
What shall that link tell us?
Does it tell us that blacks ruin soccer or that jews must be converted to jesus?
Oh no. that would be your links Skybird:yeah:
mookiemookie
09-08-10, 12:39 PM
I see it as the same thing as the mosque controversy. Just because it's a stupid idea, doesn't mean you don't have a constitutional right to do it.
It's only sowing more hatred into the world. I don't think that any Christian church should be doing that. But no one can stop him from doing so.
Ducimus
09-08-10, 12:42 PM
Guess the ole pastor's still going for it. Not backing down.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39048161/ns/us_news-security
Honestly, I don't see what the big controversy is. What i do see, is bible thumping christian's acting like they normally do. Where does the surprise and controversy part come in? This is normal behavior for these people. *shrug*
Aramike
09-08-10, 03:42 PM
I see it as the same thing as the mosque controversy. Just because it's a stupid idea, doesn't mean you don't have a constitutional right to do it.
It's only sowing more hatred into the world. I don't think that any Christian church should be doing that. But no one can stop him from doing so.Indeed, I agree.
WarlordATF
09-08-10, 05:00 PM
I support this guys right to burn the Quran. Like many of you i also don't think its the smart thing to do, but i doubt it will cause more deaths because of it. The Muslim crazys will kill you any chance they get, this might make them angry, but it changes nothing because they wanted to kill you all along.
I am not talking about all Muslim followers, just the militant crazies. There are many good people of the Muslim faith, but like any belief system you will have nuts that pervert it to fit their own vision.
Also I am so tired of hearing that "You can't do that, it might offend someone". How far do we go to keep from offending? This is not a happy perfect world, people offend people, its been going on since the dawn of time. If this guys wants to have his fire, let him. He has the right and if some Muslims are offended, too bad, this is America.
I support this guys right to burn the Quran. Like many of you i also don't think its the smart thing to do, but i doubt it will cause more deaths because of it. The Muslim crazys will kill you any chance they get, this might make them angry, but it changes nothing because they wanted to kill you all along.
I am not talking about all Muslim followers, just the militant crazies. There are many good people of the Muslim faith, but like any belief system you will have nuts that pervert it to fit their own vision.
Also I am so tired of hearing that "You can't do that, it might offend someone". How far do we go to keep from offending? This is not a happy perfect world, people offend people, its been going on since the dawn of time. If this guys wants to have his fire, let him. He has the right and if some Muslims are offended, too bad, this is America.
I agree with your first point, the concern with the Quaran burning is not because of what fundementalists might do (As you say if they want to attack something they were gonna do it anyway.)
Imho the reason its so f**king dumb
1) Its disrespectful to the decent muslims
2) Its an embarressment to the decent Christians.
But thats the world all over, it only takes a few *******s to ruin it for everyone else.
I dont quite agree with your second point, since burning a holy book, national flag or whatever is only done for one reason - to cause offence! just as you would if you punched someone in the face.
They are not burning Quarans just because they are cheaper than BBQ charcole. :)
Its not the same as say; the Danish Islamic cartoons, they were intended as humour - but it caused offence.
Intention is everything.
@ WarlordATF : Excuse me, but LOL. I sincerely hope most people in the united states have another way of thinking.
Just to sum up what you said : "Man, people = sh!t, no one gets out of here alive, this world is fncked-np, so why not setting the Mecca on fire", eh ? :o
2 things. Not only burning this book is NOT going to bring any of the victims of the twin towers back. It's only going to get YOU AMERICAN people more and more nervous about muslims and all. But also if that guy ever gets to do what he wants to do, don't you think that he's going to satisfy more than one integrist showing publicly how much they got their mark on YOUR History ?
I do not support radical Islam in any way. But what's the point in trying to offend someone via this kind of fact, whereas the only thing everyone will remember in the end is how much a bunch of turbaned people got to frighten the almighty united states of America.
Personally I can't even despise muslims : I'd need to regard them with esteem first to despise them later.
Let's make a compromise, burn the pastor. :hmmm:
Tribesman
09-09-10, 02:41 AM
Let's make a compromise, burn the pastor.
If he was a good christian do you think that if you hung him over the coals he would turn himself over once one side was done?
Anyone think that this stunt is just a lame marketing ploy to publicise his book on a subject that he himself says he knows nothing about and has no experience of?
If he was a good christian do you think that if you hung him over the coals he would turn himself over once one side was done?
Hahaha :haha:
Let's make a compromise, burn the pastor. :hmmm:
ROFLMAO ! :har: :har: :har: :har:
Bubblehead1980
09-09-10, 03:32 AM
Hopefully one day people will realize the books such as the quran, bible etc are just fairy tales perhaps from ancient acid trips or something that somehow became fact to many people and over the years has infested the earth.Hopefully someday the human race will grow up.So burn the quran I say, let the muslims act like the fools they are.Burn the bible next.
Hopefully one day people will realize the books such as the quran, bible etc are just fairy tales perhaps from ancient acid trips or something that somehow became fact to many people and over the years has infested the earth.Hopefully someday the human race will grow up.So burn the quran I say, let the muslims act like the fools they are.Burn the bible next.
I agree. :yep:
@ Bubblehead1980 : Saying such things, the only thing you do is bringing yourself as low as the people you're speaking about, making yourself the kind of person you think muslims are.
God knows how few things still have a real importance in this world, and you seem to be happy to disown your past and renounce your forefathers's faith. Poor you. :o
But well, there's no point in interacting with an hopeless mind...
DarkFish
09-09-10, 05:11 AM
and you seem to be happy to disown your past and renounce your forefathers's faith. Poor you. :oWhat's wrong with renouncing the faith of ones forefathers?
Besides, forefathers is always relative. Up until x generations back, my forefathers from my father's side were catholic, from my mother's side protestant. Go back some more generations and both sides will very likely have been Germanic Paganists. So are my forefathers catholic, protestant or Germanic Paganists? Am I renouncing my forefathers' faith by being a Paganist, or am I reinstating my older forefathers' faith?
If Bubblehead doesn't believe the same thing his forefathers did, so what? If he hopes all religions will be destroyed, so what? It doesn't make him any poorer than someone who beliefs. IMHO it makes him a lot wiser.
antikristuseke
09-09-10, 05:13 AM
Just because someone believes in it does not make it true, evidence is what matters, religion is somewhat light in that department. When I say light, i mean religion has **** all going for it in the evidence department.
DarkFish
09-09-10, 05:22 AM
Just because someone believes in it does not make it true, evidence is what matters, religion is somewhat light in that department. When I say light, i mean religion has **** all going for it in the evidence department.In fact pretty much the only "evidence" for religion is "we don't know why phenomenon X exists, so it must be a god who created it".
Sammi79
09-09-10, 05:49 AM
Book burning is a distressing symbol of the devolution of civilisation, this particular pastor is showing himself to be of no better character than the people he is trying to offend. Members here have stated that it's no different to muslims burning Western flags etc in their own countries which clearly shows them to be of 'an eye for an eye' persuasion even if they think themselves as good christians. Lets not forget the people burning flags in middle eastern countries have great reason to be angry with the west when our armies persist in visiting indiscriminate destruction upon their lands and people. As an atheist you may even (stupidly) think it reasonable to burn all religious literature, but in doing so you would be taking up the fanatical fundamentalist mentality of the few idiots that perpetrated the horrific terror attacks upon our countries this decade.
All of the 'Holy' books including the Quran, the Bible, the Baghavad Gita, the Tao Te Ching, etc...contain beautiful poetry and valuble moral fables aswell as paradoxical contradictions and absolute fictitious nonsense. Certain english translations of the Bible contain the most bewildering prose and use of language to easily rival Shakespeares classics. These works should be cherished and remembered in the same way as any great literature. The modern problems related to these texts result from (quite possibly malicious, manipulative and intentional) human misinterpretation and the religious demand for faith that they be viewed in some way as truth, or historical fact.
Building a mosque near to ground zero will of course be seen as an Islamic victory over the west, but only to that particular minority of jihadist screw ups that orchestrated the attacks in the first place. To an American muslim it would symbolise a triumph of tolerance, understanding and equality, of the contemporary and enlightened minds that exist in that great country. I disagree with it personally as I am an Atheist, and in my view there are enough (too many) mosques/churches on this earth as it is. Why not build a library dedicated to religious literature? or even better just a library?
Penguin
09-09-10, 06:33 AM
Burning books is so 1930s....
Why doesn't this backwards christian sect just use the virtues of modern technology? If they get a 2tb harddisk and the 1,44 mb txt version of the quran from gutenberg.org they could store 1324800 qurans on it - even more if they zip it!
So if they burn the HD they could burn over 1.3 million copies at once - and also save some trees :D
and you seem to be happy to disown your past and renounce your forefathers's faith. Poor you. :o
What's wrong with renouncing the faith of ones forefathers?
Oh !
I was indeed awaiting this kind of question, just not from you DF. :O:
Basically, what is life.
To those of us who have some aristocratic origins, life is enjoyment and pleasure.
To the others, life is no more than one big stinky pile of sh!t.
Now, what is religion ?
Pure moral philosophy.
Are you all THAT simple-minded to consider the Devil looks like that red supernatural entity that is the personification of evil, do you all REALLY dare to wait for any piece of evidence proving that some Bible-related fact happened at some time in History ? :hmm2:
Sorry, but the camera had still to be invented at the time, so legitimately Jesus's disciples were not able to take a photo of Jesus walking across lake Tiberius to put it on the Bible later.
A religious book is not a report written following police investigation, guys, ROFLMAO.
It's all about belief.
Some have NO luck in life. And reading this kind of book indeed helps them in some way to keep some hope alive when they're inundated with problems, so these people do not need to get drunk and stoned in Eindhoven and all to forget their problems. ;)
And honestly ?
That one is the wise way to me.
That's my opinion anyway.
AVGWarhawk
09-09-10, 08:09 AM
A religious book is not a report written following police investigation, guys, ROFLMAO.
It's all about belief.
By book do you mean a book such as the Bible that is based on nothing but belief or a book that was written and documented in part by say the Dead Sea Scrolls?
Sammi79
09-09-10, 08:10 AM
To those of us who have some aristocratic origins, life is enjoyment and pleasure.
To the others, life is no more than one big stinky pile of sh!t.
To my knowledge I have no aristocratic origins. There is no money or property that will be passed to me in the event of the death of my family members. I now live above the poverty line in plymouth because I have worked very hard for the last 10 years in my current job. Life for me is full of both pleasure and enjoyment aswell as suffering and hopeless struggle. I consider myself in the top 1% of the luckiest people who have ever lived, but there is and always will be plenty of room for pain and despair.
Are you all THAT simple-minded to consider the Devil looks like that red supernatural entity that is the personification of evil, do you all REALLY dare to wait for any piece of evidence proving that some Bible-related fact happened at some time in History ? :hmm2:
Sorry, but the camera had still to be invented at the time, so legitimately Jesus's disciples were not able to take a photo of Jesus walking across lake Tiberius to put it on the Bible later.
Do you truly believe a man defied the laws and facts of physics and actually walked on water? Is it not possible and plausible the writer although believing his statement to be true could have been mistaken? A mirage in the desert reflecting the clear sky can look very much like a large body of water. Of course not having the scientific explanation for such a phenomena, what else could he have thought?
A religious book is not a report written following police investigation, guys, ROFLMAO.
It's all about belief.
If you expect anyone to BELIEVE it then you should at least offer some evidence to justify it.
Some have NO luck in life. And reading this kind of book indeed helps them in some way to keep some hope alive when they're inundated with problems, so these people do not need to get drunk and stoned in Eindhoven and all to forget their problems. ;)
Exactly what is wrong with getting drunk and stoned in Eindhoven? Are you yourself completely free of alcohol, caffeine, nicotine, aspartame or flouride? Some people have no luck in life indeed, but I have never known a poor man who gives up because he has no religious belief. Hope is alive inside everybody and entwined with the survival instinct. The majority of people who seem to lose hope and give up come from the priviledged side of the fence and are quite often battling with strongly held religious beliefs or the persecution that others religious beliefs inflict upon them.
antikristuseke
09-09-10, 08:29 AM
Oh !
I was indeed awaiting this kind of question, just not from you DF. :O:
Basically, what is life.
To those of us who have some aristocratic origins, life is enjoyment and pleasure.
To the others, life is no more than one big stinky pile of sh!t.
Now, what is religion ?
Pure moral philosophy.
Are you all THAT simple-minded to consider the Devil looks like that red supernatural entity that is the personification of evil, do you all REALLY dare to wait for any piece of evidence proving that some Bible-related fact happened at some time in History ? :hmm2:
Sorry, but the camera had still to be invented at the time, so legitimately Jesus's disciples were not able to take a photo of Jesus walking across lake Tiberius to put it on the Bible later.
A religious book is not a report written following police investigation, guys, ROFLMAO.
It's all about belief.
Some have NO luck in life. And reading this kind of book indeed helps them in some way to keep some hope alive when they're inundated with problems, so these people do not need to get drunk and stoned in Eindhoven and all to forget their problems. ;)
And honestly ?
That one is the wise way to me.
That's my opinion anyway.
Religion provides hope for some, an excuse for atrocities for others. It has some moral lessons as well as some completely inhuman rules. As a sum total it is more harmful than beneficial in my opinion. On top of that it is logically inconsistent, self contradictory in many cases and has no supporting evidence.
The world would be a better place if humans abandoned superstition and myth for reason but a much worse one if religion were to be banned by force.
They have reason to burn flags? Whatever, they burn them because people make CARTOONS. Good reason. Why, pray tell, did they destroy the Bamayan Buddhas? Loads of Buddhist bombers coming from Tibet incited them?
Book burning by individuals is not a big deal one way or another, frankly. My only concern would be that they not burn something with historical value (say multi-hundred year old books, important 1-off documents, etc).
Burning mass-produced modern books is wasteful I suppose, but the book is just paper. I burn newspaper all the time to start my fireplaces—am I bad for destroying the written word? If someone gave me a koran, and I used it to start my fires, would I be bad? I consider it less useful written language than the newspaper, if some muslim ever handed them out I'd take it, then do that I think (save room in my shelves for multi-hundred $ Japanese books on shipping I cannot even read, LOL). At the university, Gideons gave out bibles, and I took one sort of dazed (it was like 7am), realized I had it, then dropped it in the next trash can—what's the difference?
State-sponsored censorship (the only real censorship) is an entirely different story.
AVGWarhawk
09-09-10, 08:46 AM
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/maxt384/censorship.jpg
http://i412.photobucket.com/albums/pp209/maxt384/censorship.jpg
:rotfl2::up:
DarkFish
09-09-10, 08:50 AM
Oh !
I was indeed awaiting this kind of question, just not from you DF. :O:I know, I know, I'm full of surprises:O:
It's all about belief.
Some have NO luck in life. And reading this kind of book indeed helps them in some way to keep some hope alive when they're inundated with problems, so these people do not need to get drunk and stoned in Eindhoven and all to forget their problems. ;)Religion can offer hope and comfort. And perhaps in some way that's a good thing. Sometimes it's better to have false hope than none at all.
But does that mean we should not be allowed to lose our faith? That we shouldn't be allowed to choose what we want to believe for ourselves, and cannot "renounce our forefathers' faith"?
I do not believe in the christian god so I do renounce my forefathers' faith because I simply cannot adhere to a religion I don't approve.
And BTW, the reason I drink (and occasionally smoke weed) is not to forget my problems. I do it to have some fun and feel good;)
Exactly what is wrong with getting drunk and stoned in Eindhoven?I like you:D
Tribesman
09-09-10, 09:05 AM
Alex.
Your last post is fairly well on the mark
mookiemookie
09-09-10, 09:20 AM
Speaking on ABC's "Good Morning America" in an interview broadcast Thursday, Obama warned that Rev. Terry Jones' plan would endanger U.S. troops and could lead to serious violence in Afghanistan and Pakistan.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39074573/ns/politics-white_house/
Mr. President, I see your point, but the thing that most endangers U.S. troops in Afghanistan is the presence of U.S. troops in Afghanistan.
AVGWarhawk
09-09-10, 09:21 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/39074573/ns/politics-white_house/
Mr. President, I see your point, but the thing that most endangers U.S. troops in Afghanistan is the presence of U.S. troops in Afghanistan.
Nailed that one Mookie! :up:
Blood_splat
09-09-10, 09:46 AM
If the media would just ignore it this would be a non issue. I'm sure the media wants it to get out of control though.
SteamWake
09-09-10, 10:11 AM
Pffft media ignore this, they eat this kind of crap up.
Anyhow it looks like the Revrend has decided to not carry through with his thread.
I dont think he ever planned to really just wanted some publicity.. after all his church only has 50 parishioners. :hmmm:
Amazing really that something so small could make so much noise.
Tribesman
09-09-10, 10:18 AM
Penguin , I must have missed your post (or the edit).
its reasonable practicable feasable and rather applicable in todays environment.
One could even say its doable if it wasn't for silly regulations about pollution with heavy metals and such
Sammi79
09-09-10, 10:21 AM
They have reason to burn flags? Whatever, they burn them because people make CARTOONS. Good reason.
In my defence I did not state they had good reason to burn flags, only that they had good reason to be angry. Likewise the American people have good reason to be angry at the indiscriminate attacks upon civilians within their own country, As I have good reason to be angry about exploding buses in London. How the anger is directed is of more relevance however, and yes, burning flags is an inferior and futile response, as is burning books in protest.
:cool: No, burning paper to light your fire is not wrong, Tater. I would be overjoyed to hear you were burning copies of 'News of the World' or 'The Sun' newspapers even if only to keep warm. I agree that while an individual burning a copy of the Quran is in essence completely meaningless, even if perhaps a few thousand supporters decide to copy him, the symbolism of his protest smacks of the Nazis burning anything and everything written by a Jewish author or text related to Judaism, or similar policies enacted by chairman Mao in China, wherin much knowledge and learning was intentionally erased (therefore devolving human development), about which he is surely aware, and as such is wrong and inappropriate in my opinion. What exactly does he hope to achieve apart from creating more anger? and where will more anger lead?
@ AVG : had never even heard of that Dead Sea Scrolls stuff, so I was indeed speaking about a book such as the Bible.
@ Sammi79 :
To my knowledge I have no aristocratic origins.
LOL. :know:
But let's admit that when you're not sick/struggling with any other kind of difficulty (I mean a real one) on the long-run, you basically don't need to care about the existence of a superior being/authority.
Do you truly believe a man defied the laws and facts of physics and actually walked on water? Is it not possible and plausible the writer although believing his statement to be true could have been mistaken? A mirage in the desert reflecting the clear sky can look very much like a large body of water. Of course not having the scientific explanation for such a phenomena, what else could he have thought?
Determining whether something got to happen or not is not up to me, man. But don't worry you're not alone, most people are just like you and just can't believe in something they've not seen with their own two eyes. What is funny currently is that you're all "hey let's burn that stuff of which no one should care about, oh yes religion is bad, hey all let's be atheist !", why ? Because you seem to be afraid of a simple book.
What you refuse to see is that the only single reason these books exist is to make better people out of every human being on Earth.
If some of those financial leaders/politics read that kind of book instead of sticking their head in the sand until it will be too late to care about the Earth, the world would be a much better place to live. But that's another story.
If you expect anyone to BELIEVE it then you should at least offer some evidence to justify it.
Do you think anyone is able to do this ?
It's everyone's job to see this kind of book as what it's designed to be : a small help through life.
Exactly what is wrong with getting drunk and stoned in Eindhoven?
It was a joke about DarkFish who got to mention in his profile in here that he's playing Dowly in the Netherlands (@ DF : and I meant it in a funny way :D but some people drink alcohol/smoke this kind of thing to forget everything about their life).
Alex.
Your last post is fairly well on the mark
Of course it is when you speak from experience. ;)
Burning or "banning" has no meaning at all with non-state actors. The latter is in fact impossible except by a state.
I see no real connection to Nazis at all. You joke that burning papers you disagree with (British I presume) is ok, but how would that be different in the least?
Islam is nothing more than some books. A set of ideas. If it is ok to burn Mein Kampf, it's ok to burn the Koran or bible---or line a bird age with them.
antikristuseke
09-09-10, 11:58 AM
Do you think anyone is able to do this ?
It's everyone's job to see this kind of book as what it's designed to be : a small help through life.
If noone can provide evidence for it, why would any reasonable person believe it to be true?
If everyone saw it as a small help as you do, there would not be religiously motivated conflicts, persecution or murders, last I checked, the world we live in is ripe with those.
The Vatican says it's outrageous.
Of course their problem with the Danish cartoons was not the violent response, but rather that someone had committed sacrilege.
Morons.
Bottom line is that if it incites any Muslims to violence, that says something about those Muslims, not a handful of crackpots burning a fairy tale.
Tribesman
09-09-10, 12:28 PM
Tater, you keep on repeating your fallacy about the cartoons.
You have been invited before on several occasions, you are invited again.
Can you balance your fairy tale with factual events?
If not then put it on the back burner with the global 9/11 celebrations and saddams nukes:doh:
Bilge_Rat
09-09-10, 12:38 PM
I was thinking of joining in the debate, but I think Platapus sums it up:
In the America I love, even the stupid people have rights. :yep:
carry on...
I saw the video, live, of people dancing in the streets on that day, as I was glued to the news all day. I never said global celebrations, quote me, please. It was just in "Palestine."
What is my cartoon fallacy, exactly?
The Western response was PC self-censorship. It was reported in the US, without actually showing the cartoons (unless you looked on the 'net). The PC nonsense continues—witness Cartoon network's failure to air uncensored South Park episodes (nevermind that Muhammad is in the opening credits, LOL). I could not care less about any Muslim response—ginned up or not, they still managed to convince Muslims to kill people over this. How many got suborned to commit murder over the cross in piss "art," or the virgin mary made out of porno crotch shots? That's right, ZERO. Had anyone tried to convince people to murder over this, it still would have been zero. It says something that people tried WRT the cartoons, and managed to suborn violence. Ditto Theo van Gogh's murder.
The Vatican did and does always denounce people being disrespectful of religion. I'd be more concerned about their own problems with years, decades, (centuries?) of raping children, and hiding that fact.
I'm constantly baffled how so-called "progressives" almost invariably leap to the defense of the very worst of the major fairy tales of the world (I think they are all silly, but Islam is clearly the least "modern" of all of them, the typical Muslim sects (the vast majority of them being in 2 major sects) has doctrine akin to the most "backwards" Christian fundies. I can see why the Catholic Church does it—they have to defend "faith," and allowing (by them) attacks on other faiths leaves themselves open to similar attacks on their silly beliefs.
An update will surely have occurred to anyone else here....
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/09/09/obama-calls-plan-burn-korans-stunt-urges-pastor/?test=latestnews
Note:Published September 09, 2010
Sammi79
09-09-10, 01:15 PM
LOL. :know:
But let's admit that when you're not sick/struggling with any other kind of difficulty (I mean a real one) on the long-run, you basically don't need to care about the existence of a superior being/authority.
I respectfully would not dare to assume what kind of problems you may or may not have. I have also stated exactly how lucky and priviledged I consider myself to be. I fail to see any reason why anyone would 'need' to care about the (non)existence of a God (in a religious sense) under any circumstance. I stand ready to be corrected.:06:
Determining whether something got to happen or not is not up to me, man. But don't worry you're not alone, most people are just like you and just can't believe in something they've not seen with their own two eyes. What is funny currently is that you're all "hey let's burn that stuff of which no one should care about, oh yes religion is bad, hey all let's be atheist !", why ? Because you seem to be afraid of a simple book.
My question was wether or not my explanation of the described event was possible and plausible of which I believe it to be both and again I stand ready to be corrected.
If most people on this earth truly thought like me, (and yes I am a self confirmed Atheist, we are no where near as common as you seem to think) then it is unlikely that we would be having this discussion and roughly one third of all schools in the UK would not be faith schools of one form or another, in which scientific facts are set alongside contradictory religious writings and impressionable youngsters are encouraged to 'keep the faith' also I'm sure I would one day recieve a flyer through my letterbox inviting me to some kind of atheist rally. I do not know how this is in America but I assume (perhaps wrongly) it is much the same :06:
It would please me if more religious people were encouraged to question their beliefs from time to time unfortunately, faith denies the importance of evidence and proof (or even questioning the validity of such beliefs) and effectively encourages people to shut their eyes and trust in 'God'
I have already stated in a previous post how much I value the 'holy' texts for their literature and how I find the destruction of literature distressing. I currently own english copies of the Bible and the Tao Te Ching. I do think that modern organised religions can be seen as harmful, manipulative and damaging to human development in general of course this is only my opinion. I do have the ability to change my mind however and would welcome any reasonable arguments against this statement.
What you refuse to see is that the only single reason these books exist is to make better people out of every human being on Earth.
If some of those financial leaders/politics read that kind of book instead of sticking their head in the sand until it will be too late to care about the Earth, the world would be a much better place to live. But that's another story.
There are many reasons these books exist but I fail to see how teaching unsubstantiated myths as truth is helping to make better people. Education, tolerance and understanding is AFAIK the best way to do that. I agree with your second point here though but only if they discarded the harmful stuff, but then again who's to say which bits are to be followed and which bits aren't?
Do you think anyone is able to do this ?
It's everyone's job to see this kind of book as what it's designed to be : a small help through life.
No I don't believe anyone is able to do this which is prescisely why I question its validity. Yes there are many fables of great moral value in the 'holy' texts as there are in 'Lord of the Rings' and many other fantastical works (The quadrilogy of 'The Wizard of Earthsea' by Ursula K. Le Guin is my long term favorite) unfortunately there are also fables of harmful moral value, I.E. homosexuality being a sin :nope: and the general status of women as lesser creatures :nope: within those same stories.
It was a joke about DarkFish who got to mention in his profile in here that he's playing Dowly in the Netherlands (@ DF : and I meant it in a funny way :D but some people drink alcohol/smoke this kind of thing to forget everything about their life).
Aha right, I just saw Darkfishes location, very good :haha:
Yes some people do drink or worse in order to forget their problems, one of my ex girlfriends was an alcohlic and that's one of the hardest experiences I have ever endured. She was a believer though like her mother and to my mind, 'God' NEVER helped either of them. Substance addiction is a very tough subject but I believe people can with a lot of help recover and they may even believe if it is fed to them while they are ill that it was Jesus or God that gave them the strength. Fine. But, what's wrong with the idea that the strength came from themselves?
I do not dispute the fact that many people find comfort in believing in God or reading any of the holy books, I am glad for them if a little sorry they can not see how strong they really are and have not the courage to stand alone in the universe. I feel only a duty to defend my viewpoint which sometimes it seems few others share and is regularly attacked by people of 'faith' and I shall continue to do so.
Tribesman
09-09-10, 01:18 PM
I saw the video, live, of people dancing in the streets on that day, as I was glued to the news all day. I never said global celebrations, quote me, please. It was just in "Palestine."
And what did it turn out to be?
What is my cartoon fallacy, exactly?
Where was the violence when the cartoons were published?
Where was the violence when they were republished?
Oh you mean different violence later don't you:rotfl2:
I'm constantly baffled how so-called "progressives" almost invariably leap to the defense of the very worst of the major fairy tales of the world
So to take one of your favourite falacies. Under age sex.
Going from a non progressive approach do you feel that women should be adults at a set age before their teens or should it be determined by the date of their first peiod?
With your "child rape" thing about muslims can you show that their prophet fella consumated his marriage at a date when his wife was below the age?
Even better can you show at what age the contract of marriage was fulfilled.
If by some miracle you are able to show how your sensibilities on the matter are outraged can youget on a high horse and condemn the civilised christians and non christians who were still marrying two year olds as business contracts hundeds of years later?
I don't get offended by the fact Europeans married kids. They are not god's prophet, standards are lower for us mortals. Claims of devinity require divine action and particularly convincing proof. It's funny that religions that claim ultimate power over everything are allowed levels of proof that would not satisfy a High School lab project or term paper.
(was hard to type on my phone)
Anyway, the footage is claimed by some to be faked. Some claim 9-11 was not AQ, too.
Tribesman
09-09-10, 01:55 PM
I don't get offended by the fact Europeans married kids.
Surely they cannot have been kids as kids can't get maried can they.
They are not god's prophet, standards are lower for us mortals.
So marrying very very young is OK for normal folk in a non progressive traditionalist conservative sense.
So what is the lower age limit for prophets getting married then?
There must be one after all as you said the standard must be set higher than normal folk marrying two year olds.
Anyway, the footage is claimed by some to be faked. Some claim 9-11 was not AQ, too.
Did I say it was faked? I asked you what it turned out to be.
This means that the event is now a "problem" not just in U.S. but also in the EU area,and this may be more far-reaching consequences, more jobs to prevent any conflicts,
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/09/09/world.interpol.quran/index.html?hpt=T2
Note:September 9, 2010 Updated 1633 GMT
If the nutty pastor would be smart, he would now cancel the actual koran burning because he has already achieved a lot and probably more than he had dreamed of before he began his political protest: he has initiated a world-wide public debate about some important public issues.
That is quite a success.
For example it is interesting to see how people who argued for or against the “Ground Zero Mosque” now respond to the Koran burning issue. Some people may even rethink their position.
I am of course talking about the majority of people, those who are still standing on the middle ground and not about the extremists. There is no point in debating with extremists. They won’t change their opinion anyway because they are unable to listen.
AVGWarhawk
09-09-10, 02:20 PM
Good point Dan D :up:
If the nutty pastor would be smart, he would now cancel the actual koran burning because he has already achieved a lot and probably more than he had dreamed of before he began his political protest: he has initiated a world-wide public debate about some important public issues.
That is quite a success.
For example it is interesting to see how people who argued for or against the “Ground Zero Mosque” now respond to the Koran burning issue. Some people may even rethink their position.
I am of course talking about the majority of people, those who are still standing on the middle ground and not about the extremists. There is no point in debating with extremists. They won’t change their opinion anyway because they are unable to listen.
Correct answer!!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11255366
Koran/Qu'ran burning is now off. I'm afraid it's back to boring old firewood. :damn:
which suggests an initially poor understanding, or was he trying to market to bring their Christian service,which he has partially succeeded, but when he plans next "promotion" for his services.
Btw thanks for posting Oberon!
No probs Vendor, I just noticed it whilst checking the 'Latest Headlines' on Firefox. It doesn't surprise me, it was a fifty/fifty whether he would go through with it and all the controversy that would arise or whether he'd brinkmanship it.
@ Sammi : as we are mainly talking about religious belief and consequently are a bit off-topic currently, I suggest we switch to PM now.
BTW, you have one. http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a75/Panzer_Kamerad/smileys/4.gif
Zachstar
09-09-10, 06:49 PM
Some are saying he simply said it is off the the center moves. ******* trump moved in offering to pay mega bucks for the site.
That version of terrorism will have won if that center moves at this point. That 50 member church will get bolder and bolder. For putting our troops at such direct risk they ought to be shot by the FBI as a "clear and present danger" not given what they want.
Platapus
09-09-10, 07:33 PM
Well it appears that idiot-boy canceled his stunt. Too bad, I was looking forward to him being arrested for having a fire without a permit.
What a tool. :nope:
A 50 person bankrupt church.... Why did the media give his jerk any airtime?
mookiemookie
09-09-10, 08:20 PM
Some are saying he simply said it is off the the center moves. ******* trump moved in offering to pay mega bucks for the site.
That version of terrorism will have won if that center moves at this point. That 50 member church will get bolder and bolder. For putting our troops at such direct risk they ought to be shot by the FBI as a "clear and present danger" not given what they want.
Oh bullpucky. You know and I know they had a Constitutional right to burn those Korans. You have to realize stupid speech is still protected speech. We would be less of a nation if we trumped up some kind of false premise to raid or arrest them on.
You take the good with the bad, the smart with the stupid in allowing Free Speech. Let's focus on the bigger problems to our troops safety, like saying the end of combat has arrived, except we're keeping 50,000 combatants there.
Zachstar
09-09-10, 08:54 PM
There is a BIG BIG BIG difference here.
Burning the Koran has NO positive effect. No political purpose. It is simply hate mongering. It has a DIRECT effect of putting our troops in danger they know this. They do not care therefore they are directly and willfully putting US Troops in danger.
That is Terrorism
mookiemookie
09-09-10, 09:03 PM
We must agree, to disagree.
Ducimus
09-09-10, 09:17 PM
Anyone catch this already?
http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,716409,00.html
I saw it the other day on fark. I love Fark's headline on it:
Islamophobe pastor Terry Jones ran a church in Germany...until they kicked him out. You know you're doing something wrong if even the Germans don't want to burn books with you
:har:
The Third Man
09-09-10, 09:56 PM
When the U.S. Army burned Bibles in Afghanistan, no one said a word.
When churches burn around the world, crickets chirp. Burning Qurans in Florida is stupid and offensive, but so is the double standard.
When President Obama gave a speech at Georgetown University, a Catholic institution, he asked that all images and symbols representing Jesus Christ be covered so as not to be in the frame of any videos or photos of the event. There were no reports of rioting.
Nor did Christians riot when Christian U.S. Army soldiers attempted to hand out Bibles to Afghans in their native language. The soldiers were stopped, and the Bibles were confiscated and burned with the daily trash.
http://www.investors.com/NewsAndAnalysis/Article.aspx?id=546667
Zachstar
09-09-10, 10:45 PM
As I expected it has been reveled that the pastor is a liar and his claim that the community center moving is false.
They have no intentions to "barter" (Of course not you don't negotiate with terrorists)
The terrorist pastor now says he is "not sure" if he wont burn the books.
That pastor is a terrorist in my opinion you don't negotiate with terrorists. The FBI has a clear mission now in my opinion which is to neutralize him and any of his followers who attempt to carry out the action through arrest for force in my opinion.
It is clear now folks the FBI in my opinion CAN NOT let him carry out his terrorist threat so I as a citizen of the United States urge the FBI and the United States government to take action against this group of terrorists before they endanger innocent lives and soldiers.
Takeda Shingen
09-09-10, 10:47 PM
As I expected it has been reveled that the pastor is a liar and his claim that the community center moving is false. They have no intentions to "barter" He now says he is "not sure" if he wont burn the books.
That pastor is a terrorist you don't negotiate with terrorists. The FBI has a clear mission now which is to neutralize him and any of his followers who attempt to carry out the action through arrest for force in my opinion.
It is clear now folks the FBI in my opinion CAN NOT let him carry out his terrorist threat so I as a citizen of the United States urge the FBI and the United States government to take action against this group of terrorists before they endanger innocent lives and soldiers.
Woah. What's he terrorizing, a book? Maybe he's an idiot. Maybe he's a publicity whore. Maybe he's even a cult leader, but he's not a terrorist. He and his 50 followers are about as representative of western society and Christianity as tumbleweed is to the flora of the world. Let them have their little tantrum.
Zachstar
09-09-10, 10:58 PM
When you KNOW that what you will doing will cause people to die and will only not do it if your demands are met that makes that pastor a terrorist. He is attempting to terrorize the US with the threat of action that will directly lead to violence.
That is terrorism pure and simple.
If would be different if his book burning was hush hush among members of his group but he has plastered it all over and tied his choice of if or not the community center moves.
It is exactly the same if someone claimed they would cause an action that would lead to violence if we refused to stop supporting Israel. That would make the person doing the action a terrorist. Causing a riot that will injure kill innocent civilians and military is a terrorist act.
Takeda Shingen
09-09-10, 11:06 PM
When you KNOW that what you will doing will cause people to die and will only not do it if your demands are met that makes that pastor a terrorist. He is attempting to terrorize the US with the threat of action that will directly lead to violence.
That is terrorism pure and simple.
If would be different if his book burning was hush hush among members of his group but he has plastered it all over and tied his choice of if or not the community center moves.
It is exactly the same if someone claimed they would cause an action that would lead to violence if we refused to stop supporting Israel. That would make the person doing the action a terrorist. Causing a riot that will injure kill innocent civilians and military is a terrorist act.
That doesn't wash at all. Terrorism is the use of, well, terror to illicit a response. This means that the burning of the Quran must instill a certain degree of fear of personal harm to be effective. By your very loose definition of 'terror', burning the American flag could be construed as terrorism. So could a protest march or a public rally. That's too slippery a slope for my tastes.
And so it is that it comes down to taste. You find the act distasteful. So do I. However, if the First Amendment is to be anything more than a piece of paper, it must protect his right of expression as much as it would mine, so long as he is not placing anyone in direct physical jeopardy, which he isn't. If he doesn't have a permit, then he gets fined or spends a night in jail. That's the law, but it doesn't make him a terrorist.
Oh, and our enemies are going to try and kill our troops again on Sunday, whether Qurans are burnt or not.
The Third Man
09-09-10, 11:13 PM
When you KNOW that what you will doing will cause people to die and will only not do it if your demands are met that makes that pastor a terrorist. He is attempting to terrorize the US with the threat of action that will directly lead to violence.
That is terrorism pure and simple.
If would be different if his book burning was hush hush among members of his group but he has plastered it all over and tied his choice of if or not the community center moves.
It is exactly the same if someone claimed they would cause an action that would lead to violence if we refused to stop supporting Israel. That would make the person doing the action a terrorist. Causing a riot that will injure kill innocent civilians and military is a terrorist act.
It was the Iman Rauf who said if the situation wasn't handled carefully violence could erupt. Is that also terrorism? It could be seen as a non-too vieled threat.
Please don't equate the burning of a book or flag as the same as taking life. They are not equivilant.
Zachstar
09-09-10, 11:13 PM
When an American flag is burned we are hurt but to these people burning the Koran and being powerless to stop it is like burning someone as important as a first born.
Also when they burn US flags it is in pure uncontrollable anger. Now cold calculated chaos.
And I said Riot not protest. There is zero slippery slope here and the pastor only became a terrorist when he made a demand or carry out his action. Therefore he is threatening doing an action that puts more than a few people in serious danger to illicit a response or fear.
1st Amendment rights mainly pertain to words print or nonviolent actions in protest of the government. When it pertains to religious freedom it means the government cant bang down the door because they pray to a different god but the gov can bang down the door if they are housing weapons or doing crimes in the name of their god.
Zachstar
09-09-10, 11:16 PM
It was the Iman Rauf who said it the situation wasn't handled carefully violence could erupt. Is that also terrorism? Please don't equate the burning of a book or flag as the same as taking life. They are not equivilant.
He like many sane Americans fear for our armed forces that will have to deal with the riots that would result from this terrorists actions.
Again if you started a riot but did nothing to participate in it. You are still charged with starting a riot.
Takeda Shingen
09-09-10, 11:18 PM
1st Amendment rights mainly pertain to words print or nonviolent actions in protest of the government. When it pertains to religious freedom it means the government cant bang down the door because they pray to a different god but the gov can bang down the door if they are housing weapons or doing crimes in the name of their god.
Book burning, flag burning, picture burning or burning in effigy are not examples of violence. So, there is no crime being done in the name of God here. Stupidity, yes, but no crime. And in the United States stupidity isn't illegal.
The Third Man
09-09-10, 11:18 PM
When an American flag is burned we are hurt but to these people burning the Koran and being powerless to stop it is like burning someone as important as a first born.
Then they should moderate their behavior and their 'first born' won't be harmed.
This Thread was that the U.S. side in Afghanistan was worry for the soldiers and security and not the book,even if he is an idiot who is both less smart,so is not caught a real threat for the public,
Aramike
09-09-10, 11:23 PM
Also when they burn US flags it is in pure uncontrollable anger. Now cold calculated chaos.So Muslim anger is akin to animals raging at the drop of a dime but American anger is calculated?
And/or are you suggesting that Muslims are incapable of controller their anger whereas the rest of us are?
Zachstar
09-09-10, 11:27 PM
Crowd Mentality. Work themselves up into a fevor and then if someone brings a flag it is burned to let off steam. I much rather them burn a flag than attack armed forces.
The Third Man
09-09-10, 11:28 PM
So by not doing the Koran burn the US is more safe? Please. How naive can anyone be?
Aramike
09-09-10, 11:30 PM
When you KNOW that what you will doing will cause people to die and will only not do it if your demands are met that makes that pastor a terrorist. He is attempting to terrorize the US with the threat of action that will directly lead to violence.
That is terrorism pure and simple.
If would be different if his book burning was hush hush among members of his group but he has plastered it all over and tied his choice of if or not the community center moves.
It is exactly the same if someone claimed they would cause an action that would lead to violence if we refused to stop supporting Israel. That would make the person doing the action a terrorist. Causing a riot that will injure kill innocent civilians and military is a terrorist act....and this is lunacy, pure and simple.
It is idiotic to suggest that knowing a string of cause and effect relationships means that the effect defines the cause. By your definition everytime the LA Lakers win the NBA Championship they become terrorists, and that's absurd.
What you are suggesting is letting what other people's reaction to the free exercise of our rights become a limiting factor upon those rights. Would we also be terrorists if Muslims decided that our continuation of the 1st Amendment was an afront to Islam and therefore rioted?
You are clearly suggesting that the behavior of a free society be dictated outside said society by people who don't prescribe to our same value system. Silly.
Zachstar
09-09-10, 11:34 PM
Considering the amount of Bigotry (I cant even read the idiot topics yall go into about Islam) that goes on this forum I am not surprised by your responses comparing responses by different groups.
What I do find surprising is this idiocy that doing an unlawful act is a right.
Burning the Koran is not a right. Matter of fact he will be Jailed if he sets them afire due to the Fire laws. Please stop acting like denying him from carrying out his terrorism is some attack on the first amendment. It isnt.
Takeda Shingen
09-09-10, 11:39 PM
Considering the amount of Bigotry (I cant even read the idiot topics yall go into about Islam) that goes on this forum I am not surprised by your responses comparing responses by different groups.
What I do find surprising is this idiocy that doing an unlawful act is a right.
Burning the Koran is not a right. Matter of fact he will be Jailed if he sets them afire due to the Fire laws. Please stop acting like denying him from carrying out his terrorism is some attack on the first amendment. It isnt.
So everyone that disagrees with you here is a bigot? That's not very nice, and I'm kind of surprised to see that coming from you. In any case, your sucessive points have been refuted. Unless you can defend them, your argument really boils down to 'I don't like it, so it is wrong.'
I don't like it either, but our constitution gives him the right to do it.
Zachstar
09-09-10, 11:42 PM
He will be charged if he does it regardless of his terrorist status. You don't get to violate fire laws to express free speech. You don't get to injure others to express free speech.
That argument does not fly. There is no free speech issues involved here. He does not have the RIGHT to burn the Koran or anything for that matter regardless of how many cry.
The Third Man
09-09-10, 11:43 PM
Considering the amount of Bigotry (I cant even read the idiot topics yall go into about Islam) that goes on this forum I am not surprised by your responses comparing responses by different groups.
What I do find surprising is this idiocy that doing an unlawful act is a right.
Burning the Koran is not a right. Matter of fact he will be Jailed if he sets them afire due to the Fire laws. Please stop acting like denying him from carrying out his terrorism is some attack on the first amendment. It isnt.
Sinse the rights you are trying to defend only stop the federal gov't from infringing on those rights the 'people's' opinions and actions are not only lawful but fully apropriate and should help everyone when electing their next represenatives to congress.
Takeda Shingen
09-09-10, 11:45 PM
He will be charged if he does it regardless of his terrorist status. You don't get to violate fire laws to express free speech. You don't get to injure others to express free speech.
That argument does not fly. There is no free speech issued involved he. He does not have the RIGHT to burn the Koran or anything for that matter regardless of how many cry.
Oh yes, he does have that right. So do you, I or any other US citizen. He does not have the right to violate fire codes and he'll be fined or jailed for it, just like a protester does not have the right to impede traffic and can be fined or jailed for that. Their expression, however, is protected.
Zachstar
09-09-10, 11:48 PM
Expressing that right tho has to come with the respect of laws.
For one you cant slander other people. They tried to make that a free speech issue and while status as celebrity greatly reduces the effects of any charges you still cant directly do it.
You cant start an unlawful fire to express your free speech.
You cant violate local ordinances to express free speech for instance you need a permit to hold a demonstration.
This is just on the narrow focus on this "He has a right to do it" part. He does not if he is violating City, State, Or federal laws which he will do.
Sorry it just really bugs me when people say that about him. Not only are people saying that trying to defend a terrorist but its just flat wrong as well.
The Third Man
09-09-10, 11:50 PM
Expressing that right tho has to come with the respect of laws.
For one you cant slander other people. They tried to make that a free speech issue and while status as celebrity greatly reduces the effects of any charges you still cant directly do it.
You cant start an unlawful fire to express your free speech.
You cant violate local ordinances to express free speech for instance you need a permit to hold a demonstration.
This is just on the narrow focus on this "He has a right to do it" part. He does not if he is violating City, State, Or federal laws which he will do.
Sorry it just really bugs me when people say that about him. Not only are people saying that trying to defend a terrorist but its just flat wrong as well.
Fires on private property are not unlawful. They occur on almost every day.
This is much more disturbing FBI agents visit Florida church over Quran burn
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hKWWJdTrfALpbYfWB6fM58p6u-pwD9I4I32G0
Zachstar
09-09-10, 11:55 PM
More of that "My land I can do what I want" BS
Um no you can't. If your local or state government has banned a type or range of fires you must obey or be charged or fined.
When did this mess of people thinking they can violate local laws because they own the property? That property isn't its own government.
Edit: About the FBI visits. Sadly they werent there to haul his ass off but to warn him of death threats (Likely from abroad) FBI being nice to a terrorist. Sickening...
The Third Man
09-09-10, 11:59 PM
More of that "My land I can do what I want" BS
Um no you can't. If your local or state government has banned a type or range of fires you must obey or be charged or fined.
When did this mess of people thinking they can violate local laws because they own the property? That property isn't its own government.
Edit: About the FBI visits. Sadly they werent there to haul his ass off but to warn him of death threats (Likely from abroad) FBI being nice to a terrorist. Sickening...
Yet fires occur on private property every day. If I burned the koran tomorrow on my land, and told folks I was going to do it, law enforcement could do nothing about it. And if the FBI showed up I'd tell them to go away.
Aramike
09-10-10, 12:05 AM
More of that "My land I can do what I want" BS
Um no you can't. If your local or state government has banned a type or range of fires you must obey or be charged or fined.
When did this mess of people thinking they can violate local laws because they own the property? That property isn't its own government.
Edit: About the FBI visits. Sadly they werent there to haul his ass off but to warn him of death threats (Likely from abroad) FBI being nice to a terrorist. Sickening...You haven't come anywhere close to any sense of a justification for your comment about them being terrorists - alas, now you're stuck on fire codes. (By the way, my city bans open pit fires and I regularly have them in my back yard. So do all my neighbors. Are we terrorists too?)
Your argument has lost any semblance of sense. You are now stuck on fire codes, but your actual beef was apparently with the fact that this burning would cause outrage in the Muslim world, ergo they are terrorists. Let's change the scenario a bit. Let's say, instead of burning Korans, this church decides to hold a public "ripping" of the book. Are you going to now still claim terrorism due to it's inciteful nature or will you retreat to the littering defense?
By the way, in case you haven't heard "terrorism" means to "terrorize". It's doesn't mean to "piss off". Burning the Koran hardly terrorizes anyone.
Zachstar
09-10-10, 12:08 AM
No you are just people committing crime big difference and if you get caught you get charged similar to the way he will.
Zachstar
09-10-10, 12:11 AM
Watching Countdown right now. It is obvious that the pastor is not only a bigot and a terrorist but an idiot as well. The man he talked to was NOT I repeat NOT NOT NOT the Imam of that community center. But of one in FL
He somehow (Doubtful if it was legit) believe that meant it would be moved.
Tho without a doubt he wants to use it to continue his blackmail of the US.
The Third Man
09-10-10, 12:14 AM
No you are just people committing crime big difference and if you get caught you get charged similar to the way he will.
Yeah, you don't understand the concept of private property, much less the Bill of Rights.
Islam is a threat to a free and independant people.
Aramike
09-10-10, 12:15 AM
No you are just people committing crime big difference and if you get caught you get charged similar to the way he will.Oh no, an $80 citation (which, by the way, is not a crime - perhaps at some point you'll learn the difference between criminal behavior and municiple code violations).
Still, not terrorists.
Aramike
09-10-10, 12:17 AM
Watching Countdown right now. It is obvious that the pastor is not only a bigot and a terrorist but an idiot as well. The man he talked to was NOT I repeat NOT NOT NOT the Imam of that community center. But of one in FL
He somehow (Doubtful if it was legit) believe that meant it would be moved.
Tho without a doubt he wants to use it to continue his blackmail of the US.No one is disputing that the guy's an idiot - what people are disputing is your overarching claims of terrorism and criminality. Frankly, it seems you'd be far happier in a society abiding Sharia Law than the US Constitution.
Happy Times
09-10-10, 12:40 AM
This whole event is just gettin stranger, i find it funny nonetheless.
Im only waiting for some muslims to come out saying they dont care if they burn the korans, yeah right.:haha:
DarkFish
09-10-10, 03:10 AM
It was a joke about DarkFish who got to mention in his profile in here that he's playing Dowly in the NetherlandsPlaying Dowly:haha:
Nice expression there:up:
(@ DF : and I meant it in a funny way :D but some people drink alcohol/smoke this kind of thing to forget everything about their life).I know you did;) And it's a sad thing that for some people narcotics are indeed a way to forget their problems. But then I guess for some religious fanatics, religion is as well.
Anyway, on this topic I agree with mookiemookie here:
I see it as the same thing as the mosque controversy. Just because it's a stupid idea, doesn't mean you don't have a constitutional right to do it.
Yes, AFAIK you can burn qurans if you want, but it is not a nice and smart thing to do.
Skybird
09-10-10, 04:17 AM
Zachstar, try harder to separate your emotions from your intellect. You raise claims, but lack any references at their legal fundament. And in your country, still American laws are the fundament of the jurisdiction - not just moral outrage. That's what makes a state basing on law and order different from a theocracy.
If there would be a legal basis to stop the Quran burning by the use of US laws, everybody can safely assume that Muslim organisations by now already would have made use of them. That nobody has, is almost evidence that there are no such laws.
I don't know this pastor, and I do not care much for him - after all he is a pastor. But I see the effect that he is causing, I will not complain about this effect, and that effect is is two-fold:
1. he demonstrates the hilarious hypersensitivity and the both supremacist and narcissistic self-view of an always offended, always rightously arguing Muslim world that illustrates involuntarily and maybe even unaware how very much stuck in medieval mind-patterns it is, when this mere gesture in one small american village by this pastor makes the Ummah go into overdrive mode around the planet (once again). He also makes the West demonstrating its sick, weak, self-rejecting attitude of endlessly tolerating a given behavior if it is done by them in offence to us, but showing symptoms of the stockholm syndrom and uniting with the other if one of "us" is setting up an offence to them. This kind of weakness and constant denying of our own pride is something that makes me both sad and outraged.
2. he enforces an unpopular debate onto the US society, with the side-effect of pushing the GZ mosque higher up in the hierarchy of public debates. And not to be mistaken, the building of a monument at the scene of the crime, in the name of the ideology that motivated mass murder and justifies said mass murder in order to spread it's seed and it's message of terror, is much bigger an offence and a provoking behavior - calculated in cold blood - than is the burning of a book in the American countryside. The stabbing of Cgrisztian priests and the assassination of christian nuns in muslim countries is much bigger a crime than burning a book. The discrmination of a whole sub-community in Muslim countries, is much bigger a crime. Wars of annihilation and expulsion, genocides against Chrstian tribes and people in Africa that saw hundreds of thpusands being massacred in the past 15 years, committed by islamic armies and militias with backing of Muslims governments, is much bigger a crime than burning a book. More than 15 thousand civilians killed by Muslim bomb attacks in the world in the past 9 years, is much bigger a crime than burning a book. The governments of muslim countires not condemning these crimes and slaughterings and genicides with all detemrination and stopping to fund the animals committing it, even paying nthem and supoorting them - that is much bigger an offence to all civilised mankind than the burning of the quran could ever be.
the whole debate in public about the Quran buzrning, misses the decisive point. And that is the total absence of realsitic proportions. And it should be put into relations indeed. Than one would see how very much blown up and biased and disproportionate the debate is. It is just another opportunity to minimise the West and declare it the offender that has "offended" islam. But the real offence is that something as stupid and arrogant as islam even still exists, and it is an offence to anything that is noble and potent and creative and optimistic and reasonable in mankind. That offence began with Napoleon's landing in Egypt, and it consists of the displaying of intellectual and creative superiority of the West over an uneducated islamic sphere that since generations and centuries has stagnated and fallen back to superstitious fatalism and submissive, totalitarian conformity.
As I said some days ago, I neither consider the burning event as more than just a symbol (so I am not much interested in it), nor do I see why it is such a big issue. All what the pastor is doing, is holding a mirror up and showing islam what it's face is looking like. He does to them as they do to us all the time on incredibly bigger, more decisive scales.
On a side-note, if you are fluent in german language, the following interview. The author, Abdel-Samad, is an Egyptian-German muslim I hold in high esteem, a smart intellectual and biting critic of islam, with a high academic profile in germany, he teaches politology and works at two other universities in Germany in oriental and Jewish culture (!) studies. He's member of a government-initiated discussion platform on the matters of Islam and integration issues. He travels under police protection and although his life is in danger due to a ftawa calling for his assassination (what? another Muslim being critical of real islam and for that needing to fear of his life...??) he will travel to egypt soon to introduce his book there, too - because he managed to get it published in arabic, too, which seems to be kind of a sensation to me. I met him by chance some years ago, we chatted for five minutes or so, and found ourselves to be sharing a lot of common ground. It was a public event in a book shop - so maybe it was not for random chance alone. :)
http://www.welt.de/politik/ausland/article9500423/Der-Islam-wird-als-Kultur-untergehen.html
I hold him in high esteem, although I disagree with his thesis in this book, if it gets summarised correctly in the interview. His thesis is that the islamic culture has exceeded it'S banking account and thus will break apart and decline, due to it'S hollowness and meaninglessness in intellectual capacity to which it has degenerated, and that this is somewhat self-inflicted and self-deserved, since it is too narcissistic, too much lying about its own nature, and is not potent to deal with the future challenges of declining resources, whereas islam has educated people only to blind obedience to state authority and tyrannic rulers at the top (the only purpose of islamic doctrine, if you ask me: prime example illustrating this: Muhammad himself). His original words: "the islamic house stinks." This will make the Islamic societies fall, causing the biggest mass movement of a people to europe in all history. The latter is the reason why you shall not applaud the prospect of the first - getting millions and millions more of migrants who are not only unwilling but also are unable to integrate becasue they lack the cultural and educational precondition to adapt and to integrate, obviously will bring Europe into a mess, too.
I disagree with him on this, thinking that misery makes people pray and Islam needs the lacking education and social misery of the crowds and masses - the more poverty and existential misery there is, the more radical relgious ideas will fall on fertile ground. The effect of this - will be the same like in Abdel-Samad'S thesis, so the diference in opinion what causes it, is somewhat secondary only in importance. The ruling clans of the rich oil-producers have started to infiltrate Western key structures and corporations of economy and insutry anyway, by buying them completely or shares that guarantee them decisive influence over them. but maybe this separation between the elites and the masses is what Abdel-Samad means when pointing at the fall of islamic societies and their breaking-apart. The book is to be published soon.
I also would say that I think real islam cannot be reformed due to it's "monocockpit" structure. abdel-Samad argues for massive chnages in islam, and leaving the medieval and theologic ballast behind - which leaves the querstion if what then is left of islam indeed can be called islam anymore with any justification by the term'S historic meaning and reference. again, we seem to differ over this, but in the end find ourselves to be wanting the same thing nevertheless.
If oyu ever have the chance to listen to a course he gives, or a public speech, go there. I found him to be a very smart and very kind man, determined and well thought-out in argument, but always calm and polite.
P.S:
What the rave is all about:
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9527/57991850.jpg (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/57991850.jpg/)
source: Tagesspiegel
Zachstar
09-10-10, 06:19 AM
the whole debate in public about the Quran buzrning, misses the decisive point. And that is the total absence of realsitic proportions. And it should be put into relations indeed. Than one would see how very much blown up and biased and disproportionate the debate is. It is just another opportunity to minimise the West and declare it the offender that has "offended" islam. But the real offence is that something as stupid and arrogant as islam even still exists, and it is an offence to anything that is noble and potent and creative and optimistic and reasonable in mankind. That offence began with Napoleon's landing in Egypt, and it consists of the displaying of intellectual and creative superiority of the West over an uneducated islamic sphere that since generations and centuries has stagnated and fallen back to superstitious fatalism and submissive, totalitarian conformity.
Take your bigotry and take a Hike Skybird. I thought you would have learned from your history what bigotry does to people. Too bad.
P.S:
What the rave is all about:
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/9527/57991850.jpg (http://img38.imageshack.us/i/57991850.jpg/)
source: Tagesspiegel
No, not to rational people it isn't, to hysterical people maybe....
But to most its about the fact that two wrongs dont make a right,
Simple as that.
Its offensive to muslims yes, but in the grand sceme of things - its pebble in a pool of rocks.
To your islamic fundementalist, it only confirms what they already believe.
Skybird
09-10-10, 06:22 AM
Now we now - it'S all Israel's guilt! :yeah:
http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=187647
:har:
Phoney hypocrites - though with a VERY strong sense of perceiving and using good opportunities.
Fundamentalist or not - you have to give it to the pastor that with extremely little effort he managed to make the Western and the oriental world demonstrating what a mental asylum full of stupid idiots it is.
So bottom line is-dont offend muslims because its dangerus.
Let them do what they please becase its within their rights.
Well done...Mr Obama.
Skybird
09-10-10, 06:41 AM
Take your bigotry and take a Hike Skybird. I thought you would have learned from your history what bigotry does to people. Too bad.
The good thing in making people not expecting any better niveau from you is that you can never disappoint them. Keep on diggin, dude. :up:
So bottom line is-dont offend muslims because its dangerus.
Let them do what they please becase its within their rights.
Well done...Mr Obama.
Wrong, (in this particular case) you dont offend them because there is no need to.
if a chinese guy steals your wallet, you dont go up to every chinese guy you see and punch him in the face.
It called 'common sense', although these days it is becoming less and less 'common'
As I said before, if someone is against the burnings out of fear of reprisals alone, then they are hysterical.
Living in fear of terrorism is something I might undstand if you live somewhere like Isreal, but not in the USA and Western Europe, if you gonna be that afraid of terrorism, then how do you deal with the prospect of becoming a victim of; a road traffic accident, or cancer, or domestic violent crime etc.
All these things are about million times more likley to hurt/kill you than any terrorist.
I know that for while after 9/11 Some US news stations used to report 'todays terror theat level' followed buy a colour, yellow, orange, red, purple whatever.
That is nothing but total media scare mongering and the guy who invented it should be locked up for psychological terrorism himself.
AVGWarhawk
09-10-10, 08:42 AM
I know that for while after 9/11 Some US news stations used to report 'todays terror theat level' followed buy a colour, yellow, orange, red, purple whatever.
That is nothing but total media scare mongering and the guy who invented it should be locked up for psychological terrorism himself.
These colors are still used in the military. But yes, telling the public everyday was useless at best.
krashkart
09-10-10, 08:46 AM
What gets me is that the Reverend T.J. wants to burn the books on the ninth anniversary of 9/11. Gosh, what a swell idea, Reverend! Honor the fallen by committing a hateful, paranoid act. :shifty:
America is better than that. :DL
I know that for while after 9/11 Some US news stations used to report 'todays terror theat level' followed buy a colour, yellow, orange, red, purple whatever.
That is nothing but total media scare mongering and the guy who invented it should be locked up for psychological terrorism himself.
Dude, I got so sick of seeing that threat meter. Now that I think about it, I never noticed that it was gone. Iiiinteresting. :hmmm::haha:
Another slow news day, lets blow up this story and milk it. :yawn:
Another slow news day, lets blow up this story and milk it. :yawn: :yep:
krashkart
09-10-10, 09:04 AM
Another slow news day, lets blow up this story and milk it. :yawn:
I tried but IrfanView only resizes images.... and I'd hate to think of what would happen to the milking machine. :-?
He will be charged if he does it regardless of his terrorist status. You don't get to violate fire laws to express free speech. You don't get to injure others to express free speech.
That argument does not fly. There is no free speech issues involved here. He does not have the RIGHT to burn the Koran or anything for that matter regardless of how many cry.
BS.
Burning a book, ANY book is not yelling fire. It's political expression, and is the very point of the 1st Amendment. We can all agree he's an idiot, we can all think it's impolite, but thinking it is illegal is idiotic. Anyone against his right to burn a book is un-american, plain and simple. Guess what, the same goes for the flag, or the Bible---or the right to build a church/temple/mosque.
You clearly lack any understanding of what the Bill of Rights protects us from. It's there to protect us from WASHINGTON, not from ourselves.
What gets me is that the Reverend T.J. wants to burn the books on the ninth anniversary of 9/11. Gosh, what a swell idea, Reverend! Honor the fallen by committing a hateful, paranoid act. :shifty:
America is better than that. :DL
BS.
Burning a book, ANY book is not yelling fire. It's political expression, and is the very point of the 1st Amendment. We can all agree he's an idiot, we can all think it's impolite, but thinking it is illegal is idiotic. Anyone against his right to burn a book is unamerican, plain and simple. Guess what, the same goes for the flag, or the Bible.
QFT (Both of you)
:up:
http://imgur.com/bW1ds.jpg
http://imgur.com/SZE6Z.jpg
LOL Vendor, Looks like that particular copy of the Quarn needs a smaller font size :D
antikristuseke
09-10-10, 09:54 AM
Wouldnt want to get thumped with that:timeout:
LOL Vendor, Looks like that particular copy of the Quarn needs a smaller font size :D True :yep:
Penguin
09-10-10, 10:11 AM
already protests/riots at ISAF camps in Afghanistan :shifty:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/11/world/asia/11afghan.html?_r=1&src=mv
it was only a matter of time before the rest of the gang starts
In 2007 muslims in Gaza burned bibles and destroyed crosses when they ransacked a church school.
Where was the catholic outrage? Catholic riots? Murders?
What was the response of CAIR, or other activist muslim groups? Did they call for muslims to not be disrespectful of other faiths?
Wouldnt want to get thumped with that:timeout: But this is not a position paper on the book to be fired or not,but more a feature of mighty books
LOL Vendor, Looks like that particular copy of the Quarn needs a smaller font size :D
Isnt it all about whos fonts are bigger?
Skybird
09-10-10, 10:51 AM
In 2007 muslims in Gaza burned bibles and destroyed crosses when they ransacked a church school.
Where was the catholic outrage? Catholic riots? Murders?
What was the response of CAIR, or other activist muslim groups? Did they call for muslims to not be disrespectful of other faiths?
In 2007, Hessischer Rundfunk, a regional sub-section of Germany's state-run first television program ARD, broadcasted a film on in which a bible was burned, meant to make an artists's pointy comment on how wicked and evil the bible is. There was some lame formal protest by the church, it is written. People refused to show much interest for it, it is written. In fact I have read about the event just today. So there hardly could have been a national controversy having going on in 2007 - i would have noticed it.
I also remember that there were several incidents over the past 10-15 in which Jesus-statues got burned or mutilated. And displaying such acts on TV and in cinema, is common practice nowadays anyway.
About this Quran burning, the Westerners themselves were close to go crazy, too, stupid enough some comments in the media surely have been, really. But the uproar when Christian villagers and civilians get slaughtered by the thousands in Nigeria or by the hundreds of thousands in Darfhur by Islamic freedom-missionaries, is remarkably quite. And the reaction of the Vatican when another oh its priests or nuns got stabbed, is anything but impressive in choice of words, and determination. They do not want to raise harsh sentiments by Islam, you know. :haha:
A drunk babbling nonsense is not a already a philosophers just because you cannot understand him, and maybe a moderate temper and a selective perception are not really one and the same as well.
krashkart
09-10-10, 10:53 AM
Isnt it all about whos fonts are bigger?
Of course not. :O:
mookiemookie
09-10-10, 11:02 AM
Ahmadinejad's got his finger on the pulse of America:
http://i.imgur.com/xoXNb.jpg
Skybird
09-10-10, 11:35 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11254419
Since it was claimed that burning the Quran would be illegal, violating laws, or even an act of terrorism.
(...)
In fact, there was little the federal government could do but but watch - the US constitution rendered it almost powerless to stop the bonfire.
The United States stands apart from many other Western democracies in priding itself on a near absolute commitment to allowing freedom of speech.
It is enshrined in the First Amendment to the US constitution, alongside the right to free exercise of religion.
(...)
"The fundamental principle is that the government cannot restrict speech based on its content, even if an audience finds it offensive," says Prof Tim Zick, a First Amendment specialist from the William and Mary Law School.
"A speaker's autonomy to express himself - even in this deeply offensive manner - is, if not sacrosanct, then very highly regarded."
As a nation, he says, America has made a very different calculation about the protection of the speaker versus the dignity of the audience than many countries in Europe. America prioritises the autonomy of the speaker.
Denying the Holocaust, for example, is illegal in 16 European countries.
Germany has banned the production and dissemination of pro-Nazi material.
But in the US, the courts have protected the rights of Nazis to express their views.
In one well-known case, the Supreme Court invoked the First Amendment to uphold the right of a neo-Nazi group to march through the predominantly Jewish town of Skokie, Illinois, and display swastikas.
I can'T say that I am a fan of this kind of understanding of "unlimited freedoms", as a recent debate two weeks has shown. But I am willing to follow the motto of "different countries, different habits" as long as in my country we are not obliged to follow the american example, and to refuse it. On the other hand, the anonymous authority of the political correctness brigade more and more limits free speech, sometimes by criminalising unwanted opinions by according laws, sometimes brandmarking them by public witch hunts and labelling the subject with terms like "racists" or "Nazi".
It seems to me that both the European and american system are not perfect and can claim to be be better than the other. In one case the one system may be better for human diginity and upholding moral values. In another case, it is the other system making more sense. I think it is good advise if neither America nor the EU claims to have the monopole on being right on the issue. In case of doubt or conflict, a sense of realism to me works best.
As Muslims around the world begin the Eid festival, marking the end of Ramadan, US citizens reflect on the standing of their religion in their country.
Worshippers at the All Dulles Area Muslim Society in Sterling, Virginia say they believe the recent tensions of the New York mosque and the threat to burn Korans will be overcome.
A US pastor who threatened to burn copies of the Koran on the anniversary of 9/11 causing international outrage, now says his plans are "on hold".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-11256004
Note: 9 September 2010 Last updated at 23:42 GMT
I just wish this Pastor make his flipping mind up!
I just wish this Pastor make his flipping mind up! Perhaps a matter of time, he was expelled from Germany and who's to say what's on..
I just wish this Pastor make his flipping mind up!
Agreed, stating he'd do it, causing a fuss, then backing out is in fact making the religious whackos (of the muslim variety, not HIS religious whackos) think they've won via their threats of violence.
The second any muslims claimed that they would retaliate, I think that the korans should have burned. I'd not have said I was going to in the first place, but backing down is the exact type of self-censorship that made the danish cartoon thing so abhorrent to me (or south park, etc).
The Third Man
09-10-10, 02:19 PM
Whoever is correct, the much more important issue is the violent petulance with which many Muslims around the world are responding to an event which has not even happened yet!
*An Indonesian Muslim cleric said that “whether or not he burns the Koran, Jones had already hurt the heart of the Muslim world. If he'd gone through with it, it would have been tantamount to war,” the cleric said in the coastal town of Lhokseumawe. “A war that would have rallied Muslims all over the world.”
*President Hamid Karzai, of Afghanistan, said “Humiliation of the holy book represents the humilation of our people.”
*Hamas’ leader, Isma’il Haniyah, said referred to Reverend Jones as “this criminal, this liar, this crazy priest who reflects a crazy Western attitude toward Islam and the Muslim nation.”
These over-the-top screeds of victimization are making Reverend Jones appear more and more sympathetic.
As a Christian, I do not accept that Muhammad received revelation from God, for many reasons (most of which would require a separate, and much longer, post), most saliently that he and his “revelation” deny (in Sura 4:157) the key doctrine of my, and 2.3 billion other Christians’, faith: the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ, the Son of God, to atone for the entire human race’s sins. That does not mean Christians should run out to buy a Koran and toss it into the fireplace—but neither does it mean that we have to pay Muslim-mandated obeisance to its alleged “holiness,” either.
krashkart
09-10-10, 02:23 PM
The whackos will always have something over the top to say. What have the moderates said? :ping:
And while we're on the subject.... who's having BBQ this weekend? :DL
Which moderates would those be?
I'm fine with discussing "moderate" Islam as long as the exact same standard is used to call it "moderate" as might be used on other religions. If their doctrines are closer to Christians we'd call "fundamentalists" then they are by definition not "moderate" unless you mean moderate only when compared to extremism.
A rough head count on the "moderate" branch compared to the religion at large would also be instructive.
Ahmadinejad's got his finger on the pulse of America:
http://i.imgur.com/xoXNb.jpg
So....did he not do his research on exactly who is burning the books? since his rather crude humor is taking a swipe at 'Americans'. :shifty:
its the same 'us and them mentalitly' of the pastor.
As the president of Iran, that is an appalling statment -even as a joke.
The Third Man
09-10-10, 02:31 PM
I don't think there is any such thing as a 'moderate' muslim. By the standard of the Koran you are either all in or all out. it is the perfect doctrine for criminals. Which is why it was written.
antikristuseke
09-10-10, 02:32 PM
There is no such thing as a moderate christian, every chrisstian is exactly like the Westboro baptist church loons and an ardent creationist. There simply can not be other kinds of christians.
Edit: Actually while we are at it all japanese are perverts who buy dirty knickers from vending machines, all russians are communists who love stalin and are drunk all the time, all germans are nazis and goose step everywhere, all finns are actually moose who are allso permanently drunk and all finnish women are fat, latvians suposedly have 6 toes, but actually have 5, 3 on the front and 2 on the back of the foot, all belgians are pedophiles who invented chocolate just to get to the children, all americans are fat and complete morons incapable of spelling hteir own names without geting all the letters wrong, all brits have bad teeth, all irish people are gigner, poland would be better if it were a lake as the people there are practically apmhibian, jews all have huge noses and are money grubbign backstabing bastards etc. etc. [i]ad nauseum[/]
/sarcasm
Begining to see how ****ing stupid your statement is?
The Third Man
09-10-10, 02:38 PM
There is no such thing as a moderate christian, every chrisstian is exactly like the Westboro baptist church loons and an ardent creationist. There simply can not be other kinds of christians.
/sarcasm
And the reason you posted /sarcasm at the end is because everyone knows your previous statement isn't true?
antikristuseke
09-10-10, 02:42 PM
No, it is because I concider you too dense to tell wether I was being sarcastic or not.
There is no such thing as a moderate christian, every chrisstian is exactly like the Westboro baptist church loons and an ardent creationist. There simply can not be other kinds of christians.
/sarcasm
I basically agree with you, but we have multiple ways of describing Christian groups. All I'd like is a consistent set of descriptors to be used.
Those Westboro loons are total outliers, as are a few similar groups we might all agree are total whackos. The total membership of such churches is statistically insignificant. "Fundamentalist" churches, however, are significant. I'd like to see the press use the same standards to pigeonhole muslims they do for christians. I imagine "moderates" are statistically insignificant (what are the largest "moderate" sects, and what are their memberships?)
The Third Man
09-10-10, 02:44 PM
No, it is because I concider you too dense to tell wether I was being sarcastic or not.
Me or others? Now you have folks agreeing with your comment. :har:
Me or others? Now you have folks agreeing with your comment. :har:
I understood his POINT, which I agree with.
antikristuseke
09-10-10, 02:50 PM
I basically agree with you, but we have multiple ways of describing Christian groups. All I'd like is a consistent set of descriptors to be used.
Those Westboro loons are total outliers, as are a few similar groups we might all agree are total whackos. The total membership of such churches is statistically insignificant. "Fundamentalist" churches, however, are significant. I'd like to see the press use the same standards to pigeonhole muslims they do for christians. I imagine "moderates" are statistically insignificant (what are the largest "moderate" sects, and what are their memberships?)
I am of the opinion that moderates form up the largest portions of most major religions, but being moderates they dont shout from the rooftops and thus they are overlooked. I dont really have anything other than my personal experiences to fall back on here, so I dont proclaim this as a fact.
Edit yet again: Just evaluate people as individuals as much as possible or as small groups when they band together for a common cause, whatever that cause may be. That way you avoid ridiculous overgeneralisations and dont look like a loon yourself. That is what I try to do, but being human, I am fallible.
Takeda Shingen
09-10-10, 03:02 PM
I am of the opinion that moderates form up the largest portions of most major religions, but being moderates they dont shout from the rooftops and thus they are overlooked. I dont really have anything other than my personal experiences to fall back on here, so I dont proclaim this as a fact.
I would agree with that. The assumption that all Muslims are inherently extreme is identical to claiming that all Christians are supportive of the bombing of abortion clinics. We know the latter not to be true, but largely due to the fact that Christianity is familarly western. Islam, to many Americans, is one of those strange 'other' religions, and as such, we tend to lump them under a singular label, which recent history has made all the easier due to the fact that Islam's extremists are involved in some highly emotional issues.
Painting the 'other' with a broad brush to prove a point has been a tactic of many people in many countries over time. Frankly, if more of us Christians were truer to our name, we may have reached a catharsis with the centrist and liberal elements of the Muslim community, and found a powerful ally against the extremists. Alas, that remains elusive, as given by this week's events. I am reminded of Mohandas Ghandi's famous quote:
I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.
The man had a point.
I judge a religion by the official doctrine. I have to say I have distrust of people that would claim membership to a group but not follow the group's doctrines.
I'm not sure I consider anyone "moderate" who believes that a holy book is literally true, myself.
Takeda Shingen
09-10-10, 03:18 PM
I judge a religion by the official doctrine. I have to say I have distrust of people that would claim membership to a group but not follow the group's doctrines.
But what is the 'official' doctrine? Christianity itself is fractured with innumerable sects, each claiming to uphold the 'official' doctrine. I would dare say that there is no official doctrine of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, et al. Why would we consider Islam to be any different in that regard? They certainly don't have a monopoly on extremism, so I would not believe for a second that they are the world's only lock-step faith.
The Third Man
09-10-10, 03:22 PM
But what is the 'official' doctrine? Christianity itself is fractured with innumerable sects, each claiming to uphold the 'official' doctrine. I would dare say that there is no official doctrine of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, et al. Why would we consider Islam to be any different in that regard? They certainly don't have a monopoly on extremism, so I would not believe for a second that they are the world's only lock-step faith.
Except that none dispute the Koran as their guide. The sects of islam have to do with the leader of the faith. Not the teachings of Islam or its laws under Sharia.
Christians, on the otherhand spend much time interpreting the Bible.
antikristuseke
09-10-10, 03:32 PM
That is the same nonsense you posted on the last page. The rephrasing has not made it any more true. The koran is interpreted just as the bible is. It is often those that claim to be literalists who do the most cherry picking and interpreting, all to fit their own petty preconcieved ideas and agendas.
The Third Man
09-10-10, 03:39 PM
That is the same nonsense you posted on the last page. The rephrasing has not made it any more true. The koran is interpreted just as the bible is. It is often those that claim to be literalists who do the most cherry picking and interpreting, all to fit their own petty preconcieved ideas and agendas.
Sniker.
Except that none dispute the Koran as their guide. The sects of islam have to do with the leader of the faith. Not the teachings of Islam or its laws under Sharia.
Christians, on the otherhand spend much time interpreting the Bible.
er.... say what ? 'Mormonism' anyone? :doh:
Long story short, Christianity and Islam have so much in common its not even funny.
Of the six major religions, those two are closest match by miles.
Ask any muslim worth his salt what he thinks about Jesus, go on I dare ya! :)
(You might just be very suprised by his answer.)
I don't think there is any such thing as a 'moderate' muslim..
I'm afraid there is such a thing, I have met many living breathing examples.
By the standard of the Koran you are either all in or all out. it is the perfect doctrine for criminals. Which is why it was written.
Sure.... whatever. :nope:
The Third Man
09-10-10, 04:35 PM
er.... say what ? 'Mormonism' anyone? :doh:
Long story short, Christianity and Islam have so much in common its not even funny.
Of the six major religions, those two are closest match by miles.
Ask any muslim worth his salt what he thinks about Jesus, go on I dare ya! :)
(You might just be very suprised by his answer.)
I'm afraid there is such a thing, I have met many living breathing examples.
o...k.... then....
How many jews have you met? The reason I ask is the Torah is part of the christian bible and none of the Koran is part of the Christian bible.
Based on that alone I'd say you are wrong.
http://imgur.com/5Cl1E.jpg
Tribesman
09-10-10, 05:37 PM
How many jews have you met? The reason I ask is the Torah is part of the christian bible and none of the Koran is part of the Christian bible.
I am sure that makes some sort of sense in some alternate reality.
But for us mere mortals on regular planet earth it looks like more nonsense from the third man.
I judge a religion by the official doctrine.
Which doctrine?
BTW Tater after saying its OK for people to marry two year old you never did set an age limit which would be OK for prophets.
Should a prophet go for double the acceptable and wait for 4 year olds?
Takeda Shingen
09-10-10, 06:08 PM
er.... say what ? 'Mormonism' anyone? :doh:
Long story short, Christianity and Islam have so much in common its not even funny.
Of the six major religions, those two are closest match by miles.
Ask any muslim worth his salt what he thinks about Jesus, go on I dare ya! :)
(You might just be very suprised by his answer.)
I would have added Jim Jones, David Koresh and this guy:
http://www.yahwehbenyahweh.com/
as examples of charismatics who pervert faith. So in that regard Islam is hardly an exception, but such individuals should not be considered as more representative of the faith than their Christian counterparts.
Regarding the three Abrahamic religions, it is Christianity on the outside, not Judaism. Islam and Judaism are both regulatory (rules about diet, worship, times, etc), whereas Christianity is largely philisophical (focus on direct spirituality). Judaism and Islam also regard salvation as a matter of adherence to doctrine, as opposed to the Christian view of salvation through faith.
Although Christianity's holy book does indeed include the Hebrew scriptures, they are largely superceeded by the revisions in the New Testament by Messianic decree (This is the New Covenant....). The Old Testament is regarded, for the most part, as a primer in the historical roots of the faith.
Jesus of Nazareth is regarded by Islam as a prophet of Allah on par with Abraham and Moses. He is not considered deity, but is in high esteem. Obviously there would be no mention of Muhammad in the Christian Bible, given that his revelation did not occur until the year 610. The books of what would become the New Testament were generally completed by the beginning of the second century and had been canonized by the time of the First Council of Nicea in 325. It's not a snub, it is historical.
The Third Man
09-10-10, 08:36 PM
Tennessee preacher to burn Quran... (http://www.newschannel5.com/Global/story.asp?S=13129871)
Topeka, Kansas church vows burning... (http://www.ocala.com/article/20100909/ARTICLES/100909743/1412?Title=Westboro-Baptish-Church-to-burn-Qurans-if-Dove-doesn-t)
Protester plans to burn on Wyoming's Capitol steps... (http://www.wyomingnews.com/articles/2010/09/09/news/18local_09-09-10.txt)
FLASHBACK: Muslims Burn Bibles and Destroy Crosses... (http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/285123/christians_in_gaza_fear_for_their_lives.html)
AVGWarhawk
09-10-10, 08:42 PM
It Has gone viral!!! :yawn:
The Third Man
09-10-10, 08:58 PM
Al Sharpton is upset. Al is also a minister playing to the media. But Al isn't getting enough attention.
Platapus
09-10-10, 08:59 PM
Regarding the three Abrahamic religions, it is Christianity on the outside, not Judaism. Islam and Judaism are both regulatory (rules about diet, worship, times, etc), whereas Christianity is largely philisophical (focus on direct spirituality). Judaism and Islam also regard salvation as a matter of adherence to doctrine, as opposed to the Christian view of salvation through faith.
In my more cynical moments, this is why I believe Christianity has such a large following. It is one of the more "easy" religions to subscribe to.
Although Christianity's holy book does indeed include the Hebrew scriptures, they are largely superceeded by the revisions in the New Testament by Messianic decree (This is the New Covenant....). The Old Testament is regarded, for the most part, as a primer in the historical roots of the faith.
I have often wondered about what I perceive as a series of "cherry picking" of stuff people like about the old testament (10 commandments) but conveniently forget what they don't like (Deuteronomy and Leviticus).
This has confused me. Either the old testament is or is not "part" of Christianity. John 10:35; Mathew 5:18; 15:3, and 15:6 seem to indicate that it is a part of Christianity. But many Christians I have spoken to disagree. Most confusing.
antikristuseke
09-10-10, 09:03 PM
Concistency is not a strong point of religions.
http://imgur.com/BIrVO.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Jones
Ducimus
09-10-10, 09:07 PM
Concistency is not a strong point of religions.
You just reminded me of the beginning part of this comedy skit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPxi5wzmPRA
:O:
How many jews have you met? The reason I ask is the Torah is part of the christian bible and none of the Koran is part of the Christian bible.
Based on that alone I'd say you are wrong.
Um, that's cause the koran came after. It has stolen bits from both that preceded it (not very well, in some cases—I don;t mean using pre-existing theology, but taking bits nearly verbatim and putting them in another mouth.
Takeda Shingen
09-10-10, 09:25 PM
Platapus, I agree with much of what you have said. In fact, Christians are frequently selecting what appeals to them and making their own god. Regarding the command that Scripture cannot be broken, it is later contridicted in John 14:6 (I am the way...) and in Matthew 26:28 (New Covenant), which would seem to indicate that one should 'forget what you learned in Hebrew School; we're doing things my way now'. All of this really does reinforce what antikristuseke said about the lack of consistency.
My personal view has always been that the problems viewed by the modern reader stem from two realities:
First, that the teachings of the New Covenant were a slow revelation and conversion to an uneducated group of devout followers. The disciples and followers of Jesus were the cast-offs of society; simple fishermen, leppers, prositutes, gamblers, etc. He would use a slow system of replacement to ease the transition. This would result in contradictions when reading a synopsis of teachings, which is really what the Gospels are.
Second, the Gospels themselves were pieced together by second-hand accounts, and was written by four individuals with very different viewpoints and directions for the fledgling Church. The Gospel of John is extreemly theological; hammering home the point that Jesus is the incarnation of God. The Gospel of Matthew is much more focused on the reconsiliation with Judaism proper. The Gospel of Luke regards Christianity as something along the lines of social revolution. Accordingly, you'll have very different accounts of events.
For me, it is the fact that each writer is consistent in the major tenets of Christianity that sells me. However, the devil is always in the details, so I can understand someone who sees the differences and reaches the opposite conclusion.
You just reminded me of the beginning part of this comedy skit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TPxi5wzmPRA
:O: :yep:
http://www.jesusandmo.net/strips/2010-09-08.jpg
(gotta love the newspaper headline)
http://imgur.com/LP6zT.jpg
Skybird
09-11-10, 02:32 PM
From the "lefty" Der Spiegel, with grim love:
http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/0,1518,716648,00.html
I once again come back to the German causa Thilo Sarrazin, not to derail the thread, but because the case illustrates so exemplary how things are being done nowadays if somebody dares to object and prove wrong the enforced political correctness dictate of what is acceptable to be recognised in reality, and what should be hidden and ignored at all cost by either pretending it does not exist, or making many glossing, foul words about it.
the political class and the ratpack of Gutmenschen stands united in their attempt to diffame sarrazin at all cost - in orer to hide their own failure over the past decades and in order to hide the failure of multikulti- and integration policies. the wide public, however, supports Sarrazin, a very solid and overwhelming majority. Of the current 163 customer feedbacks at German Amazon, his book scores 134 5-star ratings, 12 4 star ratings, but only 6 1-star ratings and 3 4 star ratings. Newspapers got quoted with having up to 90% of their reader's feedback on articles about Sarrazin being in support of him, something that by skimming the online articles about him by tendency I believe can be confirmed. and why is that so? This paragraph hits the nail on top and describes the dilemma, the drama and the misery of very very many western people who feel more and more discomfort about the tyranny of "the right opinion" poltical correctness has established in the name of a quasi totalitarian demand for unlimited tolerance and support for islamic immigration:
But what all these technicians of exclusion fail to see is that you cannot cast away the very thing that Sarrazin embodies: the anger of people who are sick and tired -- after putting a long and arduous process of Enlightenment behind them -- of being confronted with pre-Enlightenment elements that are returning to the center of our society. They are sick of being cursed or laughed at when they offer assistance with integration. And they are tired about reading about Islamist associations that have one degree of separation from terrorism, of honor killings, of death threats against cartoonists and filmmakers. They are horrified that "you Christian" has now become an insult on some school playgrounds. And they are angry that Western leaders are now being forced to fight for a woman in an Islamic country because she has been accused of adultery and is being threatened with stoning.
And more:
Strangely enough, a good number of our fellow Turkish citizens are more outraged by Sarrazin's book than they are about those things.
Should those Turkish immigrants fortunate enough to have exemplary careers not start exerting a bit of influence over their fellow immigrants and their neighborhoods, so that the Koran shows its gentler, more charitable face? Isn't it time for them to stand up and show their backing for plurality and freedom of expression?
That certainly wasn't the case recently when the Migration Board, an umbrella group for immigrant organizations in Berlin, spoke out successfully against a reading by Sarrazin during the International Literature Festival in the German capital. Bernd Scherer, who heads the House of World Cultures, the venue of the festival, buckled under the pressure and cancelled the event. Now the reading is to be held at another venue on Friday -- under police protection.
On the origin of why critics so easily get called racists nowadays:
Klaus von Dohnanyi, who is to defend Sarrazin as the SPD seeks to expel him, told the Süddeutsche Zeitung newspaper how Germany was overshadowed by its Holocaust history and how a culture had developed whereby anyone saying the words "gene" or "Jew" was automatically considered suspect.
He is right to complain that we shy away from debates which "are commonplace in other countries." Among those is the discussion that "specific ethnic groups" share specific characteristics.
and:
These are the passages of Sarrazin's book that I find most interesting. Those which melancholically reflect that Germans are not only demographically working towards their own demise, but also that they are bidding farewell to their cultural and educational background. Whoever calls that racist simply doesn't get it.
But ever since the Sarrazin case, it is clear that intimidation from the politically correct thought police of the media and the threats they issue of casting people out of society no longer work. By now the public has a highly developed instinct for fairness.
The support Sarrazin has received demonstrates this. The Germans are learning. Maybe, one day, the country's newsrooms will catch up with where British colleagues have long been -- a place where debates can be conducted without blinders or language controls.
Not only in Germany, but in all E-U-listan. And in this very forum as well. Two weeks ago I complained about the self-destructiveness of an unlimited freedom and unlimited tolerance as it is propagated by some americans. I stick to that criticism of mine. But that does not mean that our constitution over here, that sees some things different than america, gets honoured and followed in full, or that freedom of speech is working and is in order over here - it is not, not at all. Political opportunism is the big sin over here as well, like it is in America. Say the wrong thing, and the Gutmenschen will come over you and pull you to the scaffold of pretended collective moral outrage - even if you are right and can empirically prove it. It cannot be what should not be. Ideology goes over reality.
However, such moral propagandists should not claim to represent a majority in opinion. It seems to me the overwhelming majority is against them like it is against the hidden tyranny of the EU as well. Problem is that still many people need a push or a kick to find the courage to stand up for their opposing opinion in public. I know that problem very well - I was one of several people of a civil rights initiative that went from door to door to distribute information material about an islamic community that obtained property by fraud (stupid of them, good for us) and wanted to enforce a huge visible mosque in a district where even no muslim community was residing. most people whose doorbells i rang, agreed with us - but to make them engaging themselves for their opinion and stand up for it in public, was a most frustrating affair. I know today that this way of trying to mobilise people does not work, at least not in Germany. Germans smile when they see reports about American campaigners who during elections call private households and go from door to door. In america i maybe would do it again that way, not for parties and elections, but for certain ideas mof civil rights movements. In Germany - sorry, the different mentality does not match that approach, I think.
Debates about identity and cultural dominance are ubiquitous in an increasingly globalized world -- in the United States just as in the United Kingdom, France, the Netherlands or Denmark. Such a debate doesn't exclude cosmopolitanism in the slightest. It merely represents an insistence on maintaining traditions and values. Religion is one of them and it is not something that people will let go of lightly.
Aramike
09-11-10, 04:18 PM
http://imgur.com/LP6zT.jpg:haha:
http://imgur.com/2Fcmh.jpg
http://www.dreadgazebo.com/geekcats/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/blasphemy.thumbnail.jpg (http://www.dreadgazebo.com/geekcats/?attachment_id=75)
Stealth Hunter
09-12-10, 05:10 PM
http://imgur.com/2Fcmh.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dyVYsjz5M0
Blood_splat
09-12-10, 06:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_UDgYm7Nrg
:haha:
Skybird
09-12-10, 06:50 PM
CBN reports about the criminalisation of criticism of islam and its diffamation as hate speech in several european countries where criticism of Islam now is a crime punishable by law. I do not know the reputation of CBN amongst americans, and I do not really care - I can assure you that the report gets it absoluetly correct. the case is correct (I have read about it before), the legal situation is correctly described, too. I said several times that this new crime is established in EU legislation thanks to the EU dictatorship in Brussel and its unholy alliance with islam. Proposals made by the general secretary of the EU central committee and dircted and national no-longer-having-a-word-in-it parliaments are mandatory to be waved thorugh in parliaments and must be turned into national laws and policies, say EU treateies and laws. Parliaments have no choice, and governemnts have no choice either. The legal background derives from references in the coup d'etat document of the Lisbon dictate and refer to certain according passages and implications of the euphemistically so-called human rights charta of the EU that put any criticism of relgion in general and islam in special under penalty. All critical thought is put on a level with discrimination and hate speech. Both also is punishable, of course. Your aerguments are not important, whether or not you can prove that your criticism is correct or not, also is unimportant. you are forbidden to take a critical position on islam. Not being in favour of Islam, is an official crime in the EU.
Shariah, anyone?
http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/world/2010/September/Austrian-Faces-Charges-for-Criticizing-the-Koran/
The EU is determined to install Islam as the new state religion in europe. Probably to appease the oil-producing Islamic countries in face of a future where oil is becoming rare - and because countries like France, England, Sweden, Holland and now also Germany are already no longer master in their own hiouse anyway, and need to fear massive internal unrest, riots, and who klnows - one day even civil war if they do not give islamic communities more and more ground.
There will be a day when there is no more ground left that could be traded for time.
I read in the past 12 months that according criminal charges have been raised against critics of Islam in I estimate by memory ten EU-countries. CBN now lists 8 countries.
for German readers, this is a very nice essay abiout the tyranny of the politically correct normality that destroys free speech and free opinion and leads to a situation were the statisatic normality is not only boring and pathologic, but where the normal people in the Pc meaning are indeed the insane. The author if psychiatrist, Christian theologist and director of the Alexianer hospital in Cologne.
link:
Nur Verrückte sagen die Wahrheit (http://www.focus.de/wissen/bildung/leben/tid-19804/debatte-nur-verrueckte-sagen-die-wahrheit_aid_539152.html?drucken=1)
Mit unnachsichtiger Strenge prügelt die Political Correctness die Menschen ins gewöhnliche Feldgrau redundanter Meinungsuniformen. Politikerreden werden akribisch daraufhin abgesucht, ob der Volksvertreter auch bitte gesagt hat, was er unbedingt sagen musste, und nicht gesagt hat, was er unter keinen Umständen sagen durfte.
(...)
Einer Gesellschaft, der ihre abendländische Identität verloren geht, deren Wertefundament sich nur noch mit Mühe aus religiösen Quellen speist und deren Vorstellung von Moralität aus einer Mischung von praktischer Vernunft und Lessing´scher Ringparabel besteht, ist zutiefst verunsichert. Und wo jede Wahrheitsbehauptung gleich-gültig ist, klammert man sich aus Schwäche an die konkreten Vorschriften der Political Correctness, die Gut und Böse, Wahr und Falsch, Gerecht und Ungerecht wieder auferstehen ließ und dafür alle Instrumente aus den Arsenalen religiöser Intoleranz reaktiviert hat. Mit Bannflüchen, mit ewigem Pranger, mit unnachsichtigem Vernichtungswillen wird jeder in die Wüste gejagt, der nicht tut, was man zu tun hat, nicht sagt, was man zu sagen hat, und nicht denkt, was man zu denken hat.
In germany, the climate is shifting currently.More and more people seem to lose their patience with Muslim migrants that dispise german culture and state explicitly and throw curses and threats in your face if you approach them in order to help them integrating. more and more people lose patience with a toitally failing political caste that is denying the existence of problems with integration and with islami spreacing in our societies like cancer - because then they would need to admit that since so long time they got it wrong and did it wrong, and this would cost them elections. Oponion researchers say there is potential for a new conservative party in germany, due to all conservatove heavywioeghts having lost merkel-destroyed CDU, the Sarrazin.-debate, the growing nervoiusness about a more and more openly offensive acting Islam in Germany, and the total ignorrance of the PC briagde, the left and the poltical caste and the shepards acting in the name of the church and intensively wishing things for the better from the deep deep bottom of their oh so well-meaning oh so tolerant oh so pacifist hearts. These researchers say that such a party would not only make it over the 5% hurdle instantly, but would have the potential to win 20% of votes by jump-start. It's just that so far nobody has dared to expose himself to the public execution by the PC brigades that inevitably would be waiting for him. And after the drmaatic disploay of a destroyed demicratic basic order in Germany as it was illszatrated in the unbelioevable witch-hunt on Sarrazin, I cannot criticise anyone thinkling twice before taking that step. An lonely opportunist has foiunded a new party recenbtly, yes, but he is a nobody and without public profile and attention. This is not the new party right of the CDU-CSU that ost party and political analysists expect in Germany to come sooner or later.
It seems to me that the willingness to accept miluitant terms to fight back the Eu and islam, also is growing in germany. Again, for that I also cannot criticise anybody. Rome is burning - how could the establishement that started the fires seriously expect that the people will peacefully stay in their burning houses? i do not live in the illusion anymore that we can get rid of the Eu and can fight back Islam anymore with only fully legal and peaceful terms - not when the legislation and the laws and the ordered consensus on what opinions are acceptable and what not have been explcitly designed to prevent any protest against it ever leading to success and the need to chnage. dialogues are meaningless if one side is determined from beginning on to just buy time and let the other side keep on talking so that it will not act.
I do not see civil war already around the next corner, but in the future, I see that chance very much - the more pressing social problems and shortages of basic ressources and the economic impact from that will make themselves felt by the people. earlier this year in some godforsaken german province somebody was sued for warning right of this. Warning of this scenario was called "endangering the public order", and the warning was interpreted as planning and wishing for the event it was warning of. How muczh more absurd can it become? I forgoit abiut that case in i think Lüneburg, and do not know how it ended and if it really went to the court. The socialist SPD and the Greens, both being poltical correctness fanatics, also have brandmarked opinions among their members challenging the official party line as "endangering the public order" and "hate speech to trigger riots" repeatedly in the past 1 or 2 years.
Freedom gets destroyed over here. Slowly, silently, in the hidden. that is no pathetic phrase. It's worrying reality. Two weeks ago I had a heated debate about freedom with Steve. I criticised the Amerian idea of unlimited freedom, saying that that would be freedom that necessarily destroys itself if it gives freedom even to those that explcitly want to destroy freedom. The extreme at the other end of the spectrum you see in europe: freedom getting abolished by a more and more tyrannically acting elite.when I listen to political comments and phrases, I hear the emty phrases they broadcasted in the Aktuelle Kamera of the GDR TV. the names have changed. A former FDJ propaganda aid is now chancellor of Germany. The same hollow word-shells. a direct trend towards eroding demoicracy, and caling a hardening dictatorship democratic by label although it is less and lesser any free in choiuce and opinion.
The best dictatorship is that is being erected inside the heads of people and makes them censoring themselves . And this is what political correctness is doing. In the long run, Europe is done, I think.
Tchocky
09-12-10, 06:55 PM
The EU is determined to install Islam as the new state religion in europe.
Aw, crap. Does that mean I have to learn Arabic?
Skybird
09-12-10, 07:59 PM
No. But possibly your children. At least the girls will wear headsscarfs and veils when they have become women and are somewhere in their adult years, and they will need to accept that they have lesser rights and must be taken care of by males, since equality between man and women is stupid due to the well-known intellectual handicaps of women and their vulnerability to be obsessed by Shaitan.
when fearing for just your own future, for the near and medium future, you can still get off the hook by just tolerating their ongoing landtaking, not getting in their way, following the mantra of the PC society, and tolerating to pay the jizya - through your taxes you pay to the government which invests them into deals with Muslim countries and internal Muslim culture projects like mosques, or mosques, or to mention something different: mosques for example. The jizya is a tool of financial suppression by which the infidel should be pressured to submit to islam, so if you do not want to pay it, this is your rescue. After all, Islam means peace, so goes the claim. ;)
From Holland, Denmark, Sweden and England I have read reports since maybe two years that first churches now pay protection money directly to islamic communities in their neighbourhood in order to escape vandalisation and criminal thugs harassing Christian visitors of the churches, and to avoid the crimes gaining too much opublic attention that could hinder the appeasem... I mean the tolerant mutual dialogue. Malmö (SWE) and Aarhus (DEN) I remember right now. But there were more examples. I also know from first source about the everyday-discrimination of german teenage-sluts and german pig-eaters at several Berlin schools. In the past, calling a German a Nazi was an insult. Today, from Muslim mouths just calling a german a german already is the insult. The nazis, on the other hand, are highly respected in Islamic communities and in all countries where I have been. They are openly admired for the record they set in killing Jews. I should be proud of that heritgage, so I have been told repeatedly - last time not in some far away country, but in berlin, some years ago. :hmmm:
If I were you I would avoid certain cities and districts to found an existence there. Be flexible in your research on such cities - the list grows, slowly, but constantly.
antikristuseke
09-12-10, 09:17 PM
Yes, that is exactly what the EU is doing,installing a state religion, how could have possibly missed this, I must be going senile in my old age. Either that or you just pulled that out of your arse, Skybird.
krashkart
09-12-10, 11:49 PM
It'll be a very cold day in Hell if America becomes an Islamic state, if for no other reason than we (we the people) simply would not allow it. It just wouldn't be like us to allow a twisted ideology to challenge and overwhelm our society. [EDIT: We hardly allow Christianity into our schools; how the hell would Sharia Law be allowed in?]
Skybird, is Europe any different in that respect? I ask because I often wonder if you've allowed yourself to become too worked up over a perceived threat... a "what if" that has become a very real and immediate possibility to you. It will screw your mind over if you worry too much about it. ;)
Going back to my first paragraph -- right now the Muslims in America have more to worry about because of the possibility (and sometimes reality) of someone lashing out at them in anger. That's not a good sign for our country. The one thing that can be counted on right now is that fear rules. And when fear rules, rational thought ends up on the back burner. Here in the States, we don't have angry Muslim protests. We have angry working class protests on top of joblessness and an economy that hasn't begun to recover... and that has me a lot more worried than even Al-Queda ever did. How long will it be before someone gets hurt? How long will it be before someone starts throwing bricks at the scapegoats?
The one thing that Al-Queda accomplished well was to stir up resentment against an entire religion. Why should any society be afraid of such a counterproductive element? They have failed.
To further clarify, it is not Islam (e.g. Islam itself is NOT the twisted ideology that I referred to above) that we should be afraid of. FDR said something in a speech... what was it?
"...nothing to fear but fear itself."
And where does that fear come from. :ping:
Tribesman
09-13-10, 01:39 AM
Yes, that is exactly what the EU is doing,installing a state religion, how could have possibly missed this, I must be going senile in my old age. Either that or you just pulled that out of your arse, Skybird.
He would seem to be using a lot of lubricant with the amount he pulls out lately, then again figments of his imagination probably slide very easily.
Aw, crap. Does that mean I have to learn Arabic?
Shhhhhh! be quiet, don't let the EU conspiracy out of the bag.
Its all there in the secret legislation written in invisible ink that only Sky is able to find in the Lidson dictat
From Holland, Denmark, Sweden and England I have read reports
Errrrrrr.....you read crazy xenophobic blogs full of links to neo-nazi groups and religious lunatics so reports you read have very little credibility.
After all a sensible person wouldn't post an article about blacks ruining soccer unless it was to say "look at what these nuts are writing".:doh:
Skybird
09-13-10, 02:52 AM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-11279317
These days there is a heavy police presence in Bekasi, a fast-growing suburb about an hour outside Jakarta.
Every Sunday, officers gather here and are given orders by their superiors to guard against any sign of violence.
For the last few weeks, a group of Christians have been holding their Sunday prayer services on an empty plot of land - resulting in violent clashes between them and the majority Muslims.
The Christians say the land belongs to them, and they were given permission by the local government to pray here.
The Muslims say that according to Indonesian law, the Christians need to get the approval of residents in the area before they can make the land a place of worship.
They have even put up signs warning what will happen if the Christians continue with to pray here on Sundays.
"Stop these illegal prayers right now, or the public will take action," one reads.
Another proclaims, "The people of Bekasi reject the construction of a church on this land."
Rising tensions
There has not always been this sort of deep suspicion between Muslims and Christians in Bekasi.
Like much of Indonesia, it is an area dominated by Muslims but the two faiths live side by side.
Risomas is from the Christian minority but has never felt out of place.
But this religious quarrel is threatening to rip the community apart.
"They are very narrow-minded," she tells me as we sit down in her home, decorated with images of Jesus Christ.
"I don't know how they see God. I feel that my God protects me but they seem to think that they need to defend their God. I guess that's the difference between us"
But on the other side of Bekasi, I hear a radically different interpretation of events.
Khairul Fuad, a longtime resident, is a devout Muslim, and a family man.
He says their peaceful lives have been disturbed by the Christians' insistence on using the empty plot of land in Bekasi as a place of worship
"The non-Muslims should understand the feeling of the Muslims here. We are the majority here," he says.
"The land belong to us, and the majority of the people who live around it are Muslims. There was a rumour that to get that land, those Christians didn't tell the people they wanted to build a place of worship."
Murhali Barda, the local leader of the hardline Islamic Defenders' Front, has taken up the Muslims' cause.
The Christians believe the group is behind the clashes in the area, inciting hostility between the two communities.
"There is no problem with praying. But when they are there with a mission to build a place of worship, it is unacceptable," he told me as he showed me around Bekasi's oldest mosque.
I asked him what he would do if the Christians paid no attention to his warning.
"If we start calling for Holy War, it doesn't matter if we live or die," he said, smiling. "If there is violence that results from this, then the Christians only have themselves to blame."
'Democratic response'
The problems in Bekasi have caught the attention of the entire nation.
In Jakarta, the capital city, Indonesians of different faiths joined forces, raising their voices in unison in support of a more secular Indonesia.
The constitution guarantees the rights of citizens to practise their religion freely.
The protesters say they want their government to take action and uphold the principles of this country.
In an interview with the BBC, the Indonesian Foreign Minister Marty Natalagewa told me authorities are not shirking their responsibilities.
"I don't think we lack any political will," he said. "I don't think we lack resolve. On the contrary, we are doing what we can.
"But we must do these things in a democratic way. It must be a democratic response as well. There's a fine balance, in ensuring that everyone's civil liberties are upheld."
But the concern is if the government is too slow to act, this local problem could become a national issue.
Local brawl, national nightmare?
Ten years ago, Indonesia stood on the brink of a religious war. A local brawl between Christians and Muslims in the Maluku islands threatened to split the country apart.
Thousands died in the violence. Troops were called in to quell the unrest, which took years to resolve.
Bonar Naipospos, vice-chairman of the Setara Institute, which works to promote democracy and peace, has been documenting cases of religious conflict across Indonesia.
There were far more attacks on churches and religious minorities in the first six months of this year than in the last two years, he says.
"This has happened in the greater area of Jakarta," Bonar tells me. "Jakarta is the capital city of the nation. If the government cannot solve the problem near the capital city, how can it solve the problem outside of Java?"
Back in Bekasi, the congregation have held yet another Sunday service on their land.
The police are out in full force, standing guard.
But this is not a permanent solution.
Indonesia must find a way to ensure that its minorities can worship without fear, or else this local brawl could turn into a national .
Oh the hypocrisy. Oh the double standards. Compare this to Wetsern appeasers at GZ, or to my own story that I have told before:
a Muslim group that tried to buy property by hiding it's identity in a deal accepted by the german seller only on explicit and fixed-in-treaty precondition that the property will not be used for building (in that case: increasing an existing) a (backyard) mosque (the district is totally burgeois and there do not even live any Muslim migrants). They send a strawman. Our citizen initiative successfully fought a court battle over that fraudulent behavior, and the deal was declared invalid. Afterwards, when it was over (and I have hints that other muslim organistions were putting them under pressure, too, because they may draw unwanted public attention to the mosque-djihad in germany) one of them told me right into my face: "Of course we lied - else you would not have sold us the property." The chairman of the initiave was threatened, his wife harassed on ipen street, they finally moved away into a different city. I received letters with death threads some months later. Two other members of the core group of this initiative were beaten up by Muslim gangs on weekend nights when returning from evenings in town.
Local newspapers refused to report more than just some tweo- and threeliners about it all. Too hot, they said. When I showed the letters to the local police, they advised me that if I do not want to be questioned by the BKA over my radical political background, I better remain silent about it.
Taqiyya - deception and lie in defence of the interest of Islam, is fully acceptable. and they practice themselves what the accuse others of. Ha.
Bei der taqiya (arab.: Vorsicht) handelt es sich um eine zum islamischen Glauben gehörende Verhaltensregel, die es dem Muslim zwingend vorschreibt, seinen Glauben zu verleugnen bzw. weitgehende Konzilianz vorzutäuschen, wenn es sei-ner persönlichen Situation oder dem Islam generell dient" (Raddatz: Islamexpansion, S. 63). - "Unter dem Schutzschild dieser Verschleierungstaktik ließ sich umso ungestörter die Strategie der schleichenden Islamisierung verfolgen" (ders., Von Allah zum Terror?, S. 179). Speziell in der als feindlich erlebten Diaspora "geht der Djihad in die Form des Wortes über, vorzugsweise in die Gestaltungsmittel der Täuschung, wie sie bereits von Allah und seinem Propheten vorexerziert wurden" (ebd., S. 167). Soche Strategien sichern gegenüber der für Muslime schier un-glaublichen Gutgläubigkeit des "Dialogs" einen entscheidenden Vorteil, denn: "Ein auf Täuschung geschaltetes System, das auf ein System trifft, dem die Fähigkeit zur Erkennung der Täuschung fehlt, begründet die klassische Konstellation von Betrüger und Altruist, die sich in jedem Falle zugunsten des Betrügers stellt" (ebd., S. 295).
Tribesman
09-13-10, 03:21 AM
Oh the hypocrisy. Oh the double standards. Compare this to Wetsern appeasers at GZ, or to my own story that I have told before:
Where?
Oh yeah in your warped mind:doh:
and I have hints that other muslim organistions were putting them under pressure, too, because they may draw unwanted public attention to the mosque-djihad in germany
:har::har::har::har::har::har:
A conspiracy within the conspiracy about the conspiracy.
SteamWake
09-13-10, 09:07 AM
Just heard on the news that the Imam has decided to NOT go ahead with the temple.
Good for him.
Common sense prevails.
I now return you to your debate :salute:
Skybird
09-13-10, 10:23 AM
Translated by me from this article in the Kölner Stadtanzeiger:
http://www.ksta.de/html/artikel/1281431710357.shtml
The West in the Angst-trap
The mere announcement of a provincial preacher to burn a Quran, is enough to make the West massively afraid of Islamic retaliation. So we already apologize in advance - that reveals features of a deep psychosis.
In May 2009, bibles were burning in Afghanistan, set aflame by US soldiers. A church community had send them to Afghanistan, translated into the two dominant languages of the country, in order to missionise. A US officer explained that since this could put soldiers and civilians at risk, all pieces of the holy scripture got burned. The episode was just a small news message. Protests are not known, nobody ever came to harm. One and a half year later, in September 2010, no books were burning in Florida. The gone-nuts pastor did not set aflame a single Quran. He just threatened to do it. Over this episode, half the world held it's breath, tens of thousands were protesting, in Afghanistan one person got shot to death.
On the surface both events seem to have nothing to do with each other. But they show: in the era post-9/11 the reaction to burning books depends on what books get burned by whom - and who could feel offended by that. surely it is a dusgusting gesture when a priest wants to burn the Quran. But is it a reason to go totally cuckoo? Must the Vatican, the UN, and on the other side of the Atlantic the german chancellor, the central committee of the Jews , the protestant church distance themselves from it in public? It seems as if the whole Wetsern world (to which several million muslims belong) felt a craving to make it clear that they have nothing to do with the plan of Terry Jones. Like a suspect who swears to have been brought to court unjustified.
And this although everybody with reason and reasonability knew that nobody else than just this unimportant provincial preacher Terry Jones was behind it. That the US, the Vatican, yes, even the protestant church are innocent. and yet there were many days of violent protests and hate preachings in the Islamic world. The sentence already had been decided on, hate does not need any evidence. So why this hysteric self-defencem then? Because of fear. After the attacks in London 2005, thousands of people in all the world published photos in the internet, with the message saying "We are not afraid". what'S left of that, when the american commander-in-chief in Afghanistan due to threats over a planned burning of the Quran in Florida warns in public over dangers for his soldiers? Attack by attack, video by video, murder by murder the West seems to lose its courage. The West is paralysed by fear.
More and more poeple seriously believe that Islamic murder gangs would save us if we would whistle especially kind and friendly during our walk in the woods - or shut our mouths completely. Instead of being happy that we have free media and an uncensored internet, we debate over Terry Jones if maybe it wouldn't be better if we make a bit less use of that freedom. If the next time one could not deal more descreetly with a story like this, although it is a good story. The guilt and responsibility for this escalation - we search in us - as if it were us who threaten others with terror and violence. Self-criticism turns into a psychosis. We even apologise while we are getting beaten. But nothing, absolutely nothing justifies an ideology that motivates people to blow themselves up in the middle of a crowd of innocents.
Not even Terry Jones can be held responsible, when from Teheran to Kandahar zero scientifc Nobel prize winners get educated, because the youth gets trained in burning flags and dying as martyrs. BTW: i the next days, in Teheran another woman could be stoned to death. For claimed adultry. From the central committeee of Muslims in Germany, from the muslim coordination council, even from the protestant church there is not a signle public statement toi be found where they distance themselves from this . They are way too busy to react calm and thoughtfully to Terry Jones.
The West in the Angst-trap
The mere announcement of a provincial preacher to burn a Quran, is enough to make the West massively afraid of Islamic retaliation. So we already apologize in advance - that reveals features of a deep psychosis.
.
Totally agree to that.....and lots of other things.
That what i would call xenophobia.
Skybird
09-13-10, 12:30 PM
I think it is more precise to diagnose "autophobia", a fear of one'S own identity and fearing to stand up in defence of it. The "xenophobia" some may feel indeed (racists, not islam critics) is just a superficial symptom of that psychosis the author diagnoses, but at the heart of that psychosis lies a very strong autophobia, if not self-hate.
The German essay that I linked yesterday and did not translate due to its length, also argues like that. It's author, a psychiatrist and theologist, points out the strict polarisation between good and evil that this thing called political correctness now aggressively enforces in our societies, defining what is acceptable to say and to think and to do, and what people nowadays must be burned at the stake for in thought, statement and behavior. This is expression of the deep uncertainity that dominates our people's minds that no longer are allowed to ground on traditional identities and value systems basing on a long history and identity-forming. Our old identity feeling, our identification with our culture and history, have been deconstructed and destroyed, the old standards and scale have been destroyed, disorientation is the consequence, and this leads to the totalitarian dictate of standards as defined by poltiical correctness. But PC is just the garbage that got sucked in by the vacuum we have allowed to be created inside of our communities. That we did this, has several reasons, the second world war may have a role here, the reoirentation towards total comuerism and materialsm denying noin-material values, the merciless competition race the individual has to survive today, and the relativisation of the influence of the churches' role and the Christian dogma.
The West is a hollow torso. a vaccum is filled by what before was outside the system. Islam happened to stand close by whwere before it was actively fought back since centuries, and political correctness is just something like the reacxtion of an immune-system turning against the hosting organism by mistake, because the host does not identify its own legitimate identity anymore.
http://images.icanhascheezburger.com/completestore/2009/5/26/128878263800597959.jpg
http://imgur.com/AptyX.jpg
Takeda Shingen
09-13-10, 05:21 PM
I just can't get past the irony of Sky citing CBN. :o
Platapus
09-13-10, 05:22 PM
Just heard on the news that the Imam has decided to NOT go ahead with the temple.
Got a linky on that? I can't find that on the news pages. All I can find is that he is "considering all options", but has not make any decision yet.
:o
Skybird
Seriously....
:timeout::timeout::timeout::timeout::timeout:
CHILL OUT
Skybird
09-13-10, 06:30 PM
Got a linky on that? I can't find that on the news pages. All I can find is that he is "considering all options", but has not make any decision yet.
He tries to trade deceptive phrases and blatant lies for time. Honeytalk. He already said that moving the mosque to another place according to his "advisors" would not make a difference for taming public opinion - which means he really says: "why moving it at all, then?"
Many people are so gullible. They readily and immediately believe everything they are being told as long as it is what they want to hear. Reality check is not needed anymore.
Tribesman
09-13-10, 06:45 PM
I just can't get past the irony of Sky citing CBN.
Why not?
He goes anywhere to find articles that fit his views.
700club, thats mild, crazy copts, hey thats fine, neo nazis, well they must have a point, sikh terrorists, well at least they blow up less planes.:doh:
The real irony is that he writes this.......
Many people are so gullible. They readily and immediately believe everything they are being told as long as it is what they want to hear. Reality check is not needed anymore.
....and is so blind with his hatred that he cannot even see that he refers to himself precisely.
Platapus
09-13-10, 07:29 PM
Psst that's not irony. That's hypocrisy. The two words are not interchangeable.
Beat you to it Steve! :D
http://imgur.com/0ncty.jpg
A government with the power to ban or legislate thought—political, religious, or otherwise—is a terrifying idea.
I can't stand any fundamentalism, particularly Islam, but I'd fight a government that tried to ban it.
Sailor Steve
09-13-10, 11:26 PM
Psst that's not irony. That's hypocrisy. The two words are not interchangeable.
Beat you to it Steve! :D
I didn't even notice.
That said, I'm not sure this fits the dictionary definition of either term. I don't know what you'd call it.
Sailor Steve
09-13-10, 11:28 PM
A government with the power to ban or legislate thought—political, religious, or otherwise—is a terrifying idea.
I can't stand any fundamentalism, particularly Islam, but I'd fight a government that tried to ban it.
Can I use that for my sig next month?
Takeda Shingen
09-13-10, 11:34 PM
Psst that's not irony. That's hypocrisy. The two words are not interchangeable.
Beat you to it Steve! :D
It is irony; literary irony. From dictionary.com, definition 2a:
a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.
Per the post originally referenced, the author decries theology by citing a press release from a theologically-motivated organization; something contrary to the established motives of said author.
Double irony. :know:
Sailor Steve
09-13-10, 11:43 PM
It is irony; literary irony. From dictionary.com, definition 2a:
a technique of indicating, as through character or plot development, an intention or attitude opposite to that which is actually or ostensibly stated.
Per the post originally referenced, the author decries theology by citing a press release from a theologically-motivated organization; something contrary to the established motives of said author.
Double irony. :know:
I think Tribesman was refering to his belief that Skybird is condemning certain attitudes in others that he displays himself. And I think that's what Platapus was responding to, which is what I responded to.
And if I'm wrong in that thought, then by this time I'm so far wrong that it'll take a left turn to get me right again. :dead:
Tribesman
09-14-10, 02:49 AM
That said, I'm not sure this fits the dictionary definition of either term. I don't know what you'd call it.
Lunacy perhaps?
Then again that would be linked to the lunar cycle and since Skys habit of trawling the most distasteful and extremist publications for his latest "its the muslims" articles to cut and paste seems to go on non stop it would have to be the entire lunar cycle.
So that makes it total lunacy doesn't it
I think Tribesman was refering to his belief that Skybird is condemning certain attitudes in others that he displays himself.
Yes, just like with his fundamentalism which he has but opposes, his supposed love for the protection of freedom coupled with a dream of destroying that freedom and his intolerance of intolerance while being intolerant.:yeah:
joegrundman
09-14-10, 03:51 AM
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/13/kashmir-protesters-killed-quran-row
american idiots burn some pages of an easily reprintable and repurchasable book that costs virtually nothing
muslim idiots burn school in retaliation, a school that does not cost nothing, and unlike the book in question, may actually have done some good.
then some muslim idiots get themselves killed over this trivial offense. Good for them, i say. I'm sure their grieving relatives think it is a worthwhile cause to die for.
joegrundman
09-14-10, 04:08 AM
from the same newspaper, the guardian, which is the most eloquent and intelligent hard-liberal newspaper in the world i think
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/13/new-york-imam-mosque-incite
The honourable Imam of the ground zero mosque now decides to say that they can't not build the mosque there because this will incite more violence and fury from the militants. Militants, mind!
Honestly, this particular guy is not without an agenda. He wants to build his Islamic center and he wants to build it right there, knowing full well the whole world is watching. And having seen the exploitation of the threat of muslim violence to get mr. nuts-o-rama from florida to refrain from burning his koran, he now attempts to exploit the same fear to win this part of the current issue too.
My prediction is that Imam Faisal will not back down due to sensivity. The non-muslims will do that. The Imam will win this. And everyone, muslim and non-muslim will know it.
At the end of the text he makes his comment that if only he knew then what would have happened when he started, he would have not gone ahead. I like this because it very closely parallels the words of Hassan Nasrallah, leader of Hezbollah, after the brief war with Israel in 2006. Which was funny, since by universal agreement, Nasrallah personally was the undisputed winner in that war.
Don't assume that these nuances go unnoticed.
Skybird
09-14-10, 04:13 AM
Seems to be a slow-mind day today. Okay, for the longsleepers, I repeat again what I already said the first time: I do not know much about CBN, and I also do not care (obviously). I refer top just this single video news, becasue I know from many news from different non-CBN-sources that over the past 1-2 years indeed in roughyl ten european countries criinal cases have been filed against persons who published crtiical opinions or analysis on Islam. Not more and not less the video snippet is reporting. The case of that austrian woman also is true, it has been in the news over here already long time ago.
Display of typical behavior here from people who cannot deal with the aergument and thus try to make it forgotten and ignored by ridiculing it in some other way. ;) Fact remains that in europe you can be sued for critical opinion on relgion in general and Islam in special. And if that does not give especially those total freedom-glorifying ameicans amongst you the creeps, than I would say that you never have had a point at all when you talked about freedom in the past. ;) You fear censorship? You want to talk out against it? Well, the criminalisation of not being supportive in opinion on religion and criticisng it even in argument, not over racial claims but ideologic content - that is censorship pure and in its original meaning. and your political caste is as infested by it already as our general societies over here.
So keep on laughing, if you find that funny! :up:
Happy Times
09-14-10, 07:16 AM
Pia Kjærsgaards good speach in Sweden, english subtitles.
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpYHia6wy6Y
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_CvKPn7IjA
http://imgur.com/By6vD.jpg
antikristuseke
09-14-10, 10:53 AM
Yay, ridiculousfest. :smug:
http://daniel-goh.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/god-v-satan.jpg
http://imgur.com/UXE4q.jpg
Seems to be a slow-mind day today. Okay, for the longsleepers, I repeat again what I already said the first time: I do not know much about CBN, and I also do not care (obviously). I refer top just this single video news, becasue I know from many news from different non-CBN-sources that over the past 1-2 years indeed in roughyl ten european countries criinal cases have been filed against persons who published crtiical opinions or analysis on Islam. Not more and not less the video snippet is reporting. The case of that austrian woman also is true, it has been in the news over here already long time ago.
Display of typical behavior here from people who cannot deal with the aergument and thus try to make it forgotten and ignored by ridiculing it in some other way. ;) Fact remains that in europe you can be sued for critical opinion on relgion in general and Islam in special. And if that does not give especially those total freedom-glorifying ameicans amongst you the creeps, than I would say that you never have had a point at all when you talked about freedom in the past. ;) You fear censorship? You want to talk out against it? Well, the criminalisation of not being supportive in opinion on religion and criticisng it even in argument, not over racial claims but ideologic content - that is censorship pure and in its original meaning. and your political caste is as infested by it already as our general societies over here.
So keep on laughing, if you find that funny! :up:
So Skybird became a natzi now.
I think ill call anyone that don't agree with me an antisemite.
Thats so stupid.
I may be not as pessimistic as Skybird(i just cant allow myself lol) but I just don't understand how you cant see that Skybird is so right about so many culture issues in Islam.
Look at history and present of middle east and think why things are here the way they are
You have practical evidence to that in front of your noses everyday-ground zero mosque,Iraq,Afghanistan.
Mr Obama has issues with islam and and said himsef on public TV that some stupid book burning can put US coalition/troops in danger in Afghanistan and US citizens all over the world-isn't that crazy.Now why is that happening?
There are US and UK citizens who use free speech to encourage killing soldiers of countries they live in.
How come that you can lets say arrest someone for spying against those countries but its not politically correct to arrest those guys.
How come in Israel there some are Arab/Palestinian Parliament members who can openly back hammas or hizbalah and cant be arrested or at least thrown out of Knesset in the name of political correctness.
You may not agree with Skybird on everything but you must know that he is right.
Maybe your good westen liberal education tells you not to.
You cant be so low you too good for that- then at least there are people like Skybird if you are wrong.
The Third Man
09-14-10, 01:33 PM
So the FBI visits the pastor. He calls off the burning. Sounds familiar.
Tribesman
09-14-10, 01:43 PM
but I just don't understand how you cant see that Skybird is so right about so many culture issues in Islam.
The issue is that for every thing Sky is right about on the subject he is wrong on many many more, on those things he is right about he tends to expand most of them into pure crazyness which hides any correctness in his initial claim as he goes insane with his conspiracies all the while insisting that only he knows and only he is right while linking to some posts by absolute fruitcakes which he ridiculously called "academic sources".
You cant be so low you too good for that- then at least there are people like Skybird if you are wrong.
Actually its people like Skybird who are just as dangerous to the west as the third world fundies are, actually probably even more dangerous than them.
BTW MH what did you think of his recent "convert the jews" website he linked to?
AVGWarhawk
09-14-10, 01:46 PM
So the FBI visits the pastor. He calls off the burning. Sounds familiar.
Sure does.
You never talked with me. I was never here. :stare:
BTW MH what did you think of his recent "convert the jews" website he linked to?
Haven't seen that one but i agree that anyone who even think of converting Jews must be mad:damn::D
Tribesman
09-14-10, 02:09 PM
Haven't seen that one but i agree that anyone who even think of converting Jews must be mad
But its the last week of the age, we must convert the jews so that we can take over temple mount and bring on the end of times by building a new cleansed christian Jerusalem for Jesus:yeah:
vBulletin® v3.8.11, Copyright ©2000-2025, vBulletin Solutions Inc.