Denmark:A Case Study in Social Democracy

[Bubblehead1980]

This is why we must not allow the US to go this way.....




http://mises.org/daily/1274

[The Third Man]

That is the Obama legacy, don't ya know. During his campaign in 2008 that is what he was saying.

[TLAM Strike]

No country has as many highly educated people as the USA and no country has as few people with only 9 years of education.Hmmm I just looked up the (High School) graduation rates of Denmark and the US. (http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/20755120-2010-table1/index.html?contentType=/ns/KeyTable,/ns/StatisticalPublication&itemId=/content/table/20755120-table1&containerItemId=/content/tablecollection/20755120&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html)

Denmark: 47.3 in 2007
United States: 36.5 in 2007

But I guess its easier to graduate from a Danish school since they only do 9 years while we have to do 12. So either we have fewer people with only 9 years of schooling since 12 is mandatory or so few of our students reach 9 years...

[Stealth Hunter]

Hmmm I just looked up the (High School) graduation rates of Denmark and the US. (http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/20755120-2010-table1/index.html?contentType=/ns/KeyTable,/ns/StatisticalPublication&itemId=/content/table/20755120-table1&containerItemId=/content/tablecollection/20755120&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html)

Denmark: 47.3 in 2007
United States: 36.5 in 2007

But I guess its easier to graduate from a Danish school since they only do 9 years while we have to do 12. So either we have fewer people with only 9 years of schooling since 12 is mandatory or so few of our students reach 9 years...

Looking through other statistics they've provided, it appears this is not the only thing they've not gotten correct:

But from 1960 until today, the number of crime reports has increased by 500 percent, to more than 500,000 per year. And if we look at violent crime, the picture is even grimmer. The number of violent crimes in 1960 was approximately 2,000; it is approximately 15,000 today. This is an increase of more than 700 percent, and it is still rising steeply.

Actually the United Nations Interregional Crime and Justice Research Institute notes that Denmark has 491,000 crime reports on average per year, not "over 500,000". Furthermore, their violent crime rate is not anywhere near the one this mises.org article claims. On average each year, there are 56 murders, 16 kidnappings, 500 rapes, and 3,238 robberies. And as far as prisoner numbers go, they have only 3,435 prisoners currently- ranked 107th in the world.


http://www.nationmaster.com/country/da-denmark/cri-crime


Now as far as what the Danish Statistical Yearbook from 2002 says (this is the source the author of this "case study" cited for these particular statistics), I'd like to see a copy. Something is very wrong with their numbers, if this is what they really claim.

And, for the record, Denmark is not a Social Democracy- nor has it ever been one. It's a Constitutional Monarchy.

[Tribesman]

It's a Constitutional Monarchy.
So does this mean Obamas secret plan is to install a monarch?
He is after all a sneaky black atheist muslim communist from asia and africa who isn't american so you have to watch out for his nefarious plans.
I bet he is going to install rev wright as a new king and thus at one fell swoop turn the country not only into a monarchy but a theocracy too.

[MGR1]

Dread to think what that lot would make of the UK.

Mike.:06:

[DarkFish]

Despite its reputation as a showcase of political utopia, 40 percent of its adult population live on government transfer income, full-time, all-year.and what exactly does "full-time, all-year" mean? Does it mean they sit at home watching TV while the state pays the bills? Or does it mean they do work for a low pay and get extra funds provided by the state? The article doesn't say.

In 1960, 91 percent of all women 30 years of age were married. Today, fewer than 50 percent are.So what?!:doh: Jeez, is this guy a priest or something? What the heck does it matter if people marry or not? "Family support functions" my hind quarters! My parents never married but they've been happily living together for the last 25 years.

If we next look at the crime level, the Danish Statistical Yearbook 2002 shows reported crimes from 1935 to 1960 to be stable: about 100,000 crimes per year. But from 1960 until today, the number of crime reports has increased by 500 percent, to more than 500,000 per year. And if we look at violent crime, the picture is even grimmer. The number of violent crimes in 1960 was approximately 2,000; it is approximately 15,000 today. This is an increase of more than 700 percent, and it is still rising steeply.So now let's compare Danish crime rates with the US ones (http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/europe/denmark.html):
Danish/US
Murder: 4.03/5.51
Rape: 9.32/32.05
Robbery: 59.14/144.92
Aggravated assault: 23.68/323.62
Burglary: 1868.06/728.42
Larceny: 1224.71/2475.27
Motor vehicle theft: 604.18/414.17

So Except for burglary and vehicle theft, rates in the US are much higher.

Let's now look at education. Many people believe that if education were not provided by the government, only rich people could afford it. Let us compare Denmark to the U.S., where public funding of especially higher education is not nearly as readily available as it is in Denmark. According to the report "Education at a Glance" from the OECD, 15 percent of people between the ages of 25 and 64 has a bachelor degree or more in Denmark. In the U.S.A., it is 26 percent—nearly twice as many. In Sweden, the number is 13 percent, and Norway 16 percent. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
Denmark = no. 3
USA = no. 20


So in response to your
This is why we must not allow the US to go this way.....I can only say; this is why European countries must not go the US way;)

[Schroeder]

Good one DarkFish.:yeah:

[Takeda Shingen]

So now let's compare Danish crime rates with the US ones (http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/europe/denmark.html):
Danish/US
Murder: 4.03/5.51
Rape: 9.32/32.05
Robbery: 59.14/144.92
Aggravated assault: 23.68/323.62
Burglary: 1868.06/728.42
Larceny: 1224.71/2475.27
Motor vehicle theft: 604.18/414.17

So Except for burglary and vehicle theft, rates in the US are much higher.

What I find very interesting about the statistics is not the rate of crime, but the type. Denmark has higher rates of theft and crimes against property, while the US has higher rates of violent crime against persons.

[Tribesman]

Hmmm I just looked up the (High School) graduation rates of Denmark and the US. (http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/20755120-2010-table1/index.html?contentType=/ns/KeyTable,/ns/StatisticalPublication&itemId=/content/table/20755120-table1&containerItemId=/content/tablecollection/20755120&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html)

sorry to burst your bubble on the education front, but if those were high school graduation rates the table would read .....
"Secondary education graduation rates"
Those are the tertiary graduation rates which of course is derived from the latin meaning the schooly thing after high school

[Cohaagen]

Dread to think what that lot would make of the UK.

Mike.:06:

Cherry-pick horror stories and unflattering/manipulated/made-up statistics, safe in the knowledge that they're reinforcing already negative views, rather than attempting to persuade through robustness of argument, held by people who have likely never visited the place in question, have no interest in it beyond its use as a stick to beat the opposition with, and probably can't even find said country on a map? Perhaps with the aid of an unknown, ultra-marginalised hobby-horse crank (eg. Daniel Hannan) with many axes to grind, presented as an expert on the side of prevailing opinion? Or, failing that, fabricate stories about "death panels" and "Sharia Law" (both outright lies, the latter a particularly dangerous one, yet still accepted as fact by a worrying number of Americans).

Every now and then a proposal comes up to have a dedicated Politics forum on Subsim. It would be simpler to rename GT "The US Politics Board".

[mookiemookie]

Cherry-pick horror stories and unflattering/manipulated/made-up statistics, safe in the knowledge that they're reinforcing already negative views, rather than attempting to persuade through robustness of argument, held by people who have likely never visited the place in question, have no interest in it beyond its use as a stick to beat the opposition with, and probably can't even find said country on a map? Perhaps with the aid of an unknown, ultra-marginalised hobby-horse crank (eg. Daniel Hannan) with many axes to grind, presented as an expert on the side of prevailing opinion? Or, failing that, fabricate stories about "death panels" and "Sharia Law" (both outright lies, the latter a particularly dangerous one, yet still accepted as fact by a worrying number of Americans).


And that, folks, is how you hit the nail on the head.

[Snestorm]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index
Denmark = no. 3
USA = no. 20


So in response to your
I can only say; this is why European countries must not go the US way;)

Well done, DarkFish.
Additionaly, this is a double hit on USA's education system.
It takes danish students 9 years to put Danmark at #3.
It takes american students 12 years to put USA at #20.
That's 3 years worth of wasted time, materials, and tax money.
To achieve a lower result!

What % of USA's citizens can even find Danmark on a map?

[Sailor Steve]

What % of USA's citizens can even find Danmark on a map?
I can.

0.000000003333 so far.

[nikimcbee]

Danmark

:har:

on a side note, I allways find it funny when people complain about the US school system. Who controls the US school system?

:har:

[TLAM Strike]

Danmark

:har:
Danmark appears to be an acceptable spelling of Denmark according to Google. I think its the Danish spelling... :hmmm:

on a side note, I allways find it funny when people complain about the US school system. Who controls the US school system?

:har: The Freemasons and Illuminati... oh wait wrong thread.... :O:

[Aramike]

So now let's compare Danish crime rates with the US ones (http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/faculty/rwinslow/europe/denmark.html):
Danish/US
Murder: 4.03/5.51
Rape: 9.32/32.05
Robbery: 59.14/144.92
Aggravated assault: 23.68/323.62
Burglary: 1868.06/728.42
Larceny: 1224.71/2475.27
Motor vehicle theft: 604.18/414.17

So Except for burglary and vehicle theft, rates in the US are much higher.I'm curious as to how you feel this is a counter-point, as his point wasn't about a comparison rate but rather the dramatic INCREASE in Danish rates.

Btw, comparing the crime rates of different nations is a fool's exercise as the data is always collected in different ways. Furthermore, and discussion on crime rates must include contributing factors - for instance face cultural challenges that Denmark doesn't face, and vice-versa.

[DarkFish]

I'm curious as to how you feel this is a counter-point, as his point wasn't about a comparison rate but rather the dramatic INCREASE in Danish rates.In the end the increase doesn't matter at all. It's the total that matters. I'd much rather live in a country with a high increase and lower rate than the other way around. Much safer living:yep:

Furthermore, this is a counter-point directed at Bubblehead1980 with his claim the US is supposedly better than Denmark. It isn't necessarily directed at the author of the article.

Btw, comparing the crime rates of different nations is a fool's exercise as the data is always collected in different ways.Even if the data is collected in different ways, this cannot account for all of the huge differences.

Furthermore, and discussion on crime rates must include contributing factors - for instance face cultural challenges that Denmark doesn't face, and vice-versa.We are not discussing the crime rates here. It's just a quick fact I mentioned. I could provide huge walls of text with it, but for the sake of readability that's generally not considered desirable.

The exact reason why there's more crime in the US than in Denmark is not important for us to know. Fact is there's simply much less in Denmark, and thus I cannot see how Bubblehead1980 can possibly claim US social systems are so much better than the Danish ones.

[Skybird]

Hmmm I just looked up the (High School) graduation rates of Denmark and the US. (http://www.oecd-ilibrary.org/sites/20755120-2010-table1/index.html?contentType=/ns/KeyTable,/ns/StatisticalPublication&itemId=/content/table/20755120-table1&containerItemId=/content/tablecollection/20755120&accessItemIds=&mimeType=text/html)

Denmark: 47.3 in 2007
United States: 36.5 in 2007

But I guess its easier to graduate from a Danish school since they only do 9 years while we have to do 12. So either we have fewer people with only 9 years of schooling since 12 is mandatory or so few of our students reach 9 years...

Comparing notes or ammount of graduates means little if the criterions for notes are not the same. In Germany for example the general performance level of schoolkids gets artifically counted up by lowering the standards. Kids now get the same note for more mistakes or less performance, or get a better note for the same ammount of mistake and the same performance than earlier.

when my mom went to school, in a written dictate her generation was not given an "A" with one single mistake in it. My generation got used to things like "half-mistakes", two of whch got counted as one full mistake, and an "A" still being given with 1 or 1.5 errors. I have been told by teachers that today the ministry leaves teachers no room anymore and orderesy them either to give a good note for even an higher ammount of mistakes (I know of one school where you still get an A with 4 errors), or the final note for such a classroom work must bcalculated versus the mean averga note of all the class, to achieve a wanted and demanded and ordered-for preset avergae note.

Performance levbels have become fully negotiable, their are no set standards anymore. The result is that one quarter of kids in third class of elementary school still cannot read or write reliably and cannot do elemnatary maths. At my time, all kids could do that by the end of first class. Companies complain that they desperately search for young people to get them into the jobs they have to offer and needs to crew. but they must first hold weeks of school teaching to teach them how to write without making to many errors, and basic maths like addition, divion, percent-caluclation or rule-of-three.

But politicians boast with terms like "education offensives", "excellence initiatives" etc. Yeah. First kick it into the drain, than give it a shiny paint.

[Aramike]

In the end the increase doesn't matter at all. It's the total that matters. This answer is flawed. The original argument, along with your subsequent rebuttal, both mentioned movement in a certain direction ("going the way of"). Increase/decrease is movement. Totals are not. I'd much rather live in a country with a high increase and lower rate than the other way around. Much safer living:yep:"Much" safer living ... for now.

Personally, I'd prefer to be in a safe neighborhood in a nation with a higher crime rate which is either static or on the decline than in an unsafe neighborhood in a country with a lower crime rate showing explosive growth.Furthermore, this is a counter-point directed at Bubblehead1980 with his claim the US is supposedly better than Denmark. It isn't necessarily directed at the author of the article.Your counter point is invalid as Bubblehead said nothing about the US being better than Denmark but rather not wanting "the US to go this way".

Quite frankly I don't want the US to go that way either, and using crime as an example, I'd prefer to avoid such an explosive growth in the rates.Even if the data is collected in different ways, this cannot account for all of the huge differences.Maybe I should use large, run-on sentences rather than paragraphs because if you're going to attempt to break down each sentence without the context, we're going to get no where.

I'm pretty sure I followed that statement with one mentioning other contributing factors.We are not discussing the crime rates here. It's just a quick fact I mentioned. I could provide huge walls of text with it, but for the sake of readability that's generally not considered desirable.Kind of odd a statement to make considering that your original rebuttal centered on that topic.The exact reason why there's more crime in the US than in Denmark is not important for us to know. You believe that a better crime prevention tool would be to bury your head in the sand?Fact is there's simply much less in Denmark, and thus I cannot see how Bubblehead1980 can possibly claim US social systems are so much better than the Danish ones. How long do you think Denmark will have a much lower crime rate than the US, considering it's amazing growth? Forever?

When something grows disproportionately to a certain benchmark, it tends to surpass it, unless your math shows something completely different I'm unaware of.

[DarkFish]

This answer is flawed. The original argument, along with your subsequent rebuttal, both mentioned movement in a certain direction ("going the way of"). Increase/decrease is movement. Totals are not. The original argument was about a *political* direction. So it's a completely different form of "movement".

"Much" safer living ... for now.And how long do you think that growth will continue? And even with the current growth it'll take quite some time for the Danish crime rates to reach US levels.

Personally, I'd prefer to be in a safe neighborhood in a nation with a higher crime rate which is either static or on the decline than in an unsafe neighborhood in a country with a lower crime rate showing explosive growth.Now you're taking neighbourhoods in the picture. We're not talking about those now. I'm pretty sure you'd be safe in the Presidential Palace of Sudan as well, even though Sudan is one of the world's most dangerous countries.:doh:

Your counter point is invalid as Bubblehead said nothing about the US being better than Denmark but rather not wanting "the US to go this way". Thus insinuating the US way is better. Why would you not want to go the Danish way if you think the Danish way is better?

Quite frankly I don't want the US to go that way either, and using crime as an example, I'd prefer to avoid such an explosive growth in the rates.Personally I rather live in a country with a lower crime rate than in a country with a high one. But if you prefer to get assaulted/murdered/etc., be my guest.

Maybe I should use large, run-on sentences rather than paragraphs because if you're going to attempt to break down each sentence without the context, we're going to get no where. So if you claim something in a small sentence, I may not counter that claim because it is not in a large run-on sentence?
Your claim was flawed. What the context was doesn't matter. A flawed claim doesn't suddenly get true if you change the context.

I'm pretty sure I followed that statement with one mentioning other contributing factors.Kind of odd a statement to make considering that your original rebuttal centered on that topic.You believe that a better crime prevention tool would be to bury your head in the sand?Centered on what topic? Crime prevention? I have never mentioned the word "crime prevention" until you came up with it.

How long do you think Denmark will have a much lower crime rate than the US, considering it's amazing growth? Forever? How long do you think the current growth will continue? Forever?

When something grows disproportionately to a certain benchmark, it tends to surpass it, unless your math shows something completely different I'm unaware of.Unless your physics show something I am not aware of, growths/increases tend to slow down and stabilize.

[nikimcbee]

Danmark appears to be an acceptable spelling of Denmark according to Google. I think its the Danish spelling... :hmmm:

The Freemasons and Illuminati... oh wait wrong thread.... :O:

I believe it needs umlauts (sp):D

[Aramike]

The original argument was about a *political* direction. So it's a completely different form of "movement".Umm, right. Nice attempt at dodging the point.And how long do you think that growth will continue? And even with the current growth it'll take quite some time for the Danish crime rates to reach US levels.It doesn't matter - one would think the point would be to slow the growth.Now you're taking neighbourhoods in the picture. We're not talking about those now. I'm pretty sure you'd be safe in the Presidential Palace of Sudan as well, even though Sudan is one of the world's most dangerous countries.I thought the point was one of being safe, but I guess one must continue to disregard the opposition's points if one has no real argument against them.Thus insinuating the US way is better. Why would you not want to go the Danish way if you think the Danish way is better?:wah: Sensitve are we?Personally I rather live in a country with a lower crime rate than in a country with a high one. But if you prefer to get assaulted/murdered/etc., be my guest.The point I made earlier was the I personally rather live in a safe area of a country with a higher crime rate than a dangerous area in a country with a lower crime rate.

But you know how all of us Americans are just getting assaulted and murdered, right? :doh:So if you claim something in a small sentence, I may not counter that claim because it is not in a large run-on sentence?
Your claim was flawed. What the context was doesn't matter. A flawed claim doesn't suddenly get true if you change the context.The claim was not flawed - it was incomplete until you put it into the context of the paragraph.

But even then, please enlighten us as to how crime statistics are gathered and reported exactly the same way in every nation. Can't? Then the claim was not flawed.

However, it's IMPACT would have been negligible in the context of the discussion ... should the following sentences have been ommitted.

But hey - why know what you're talking about when you can just argue, right?Centered on what topic? Crime prevention? I have never mentioned the word "crime prevention" until you came up with it.Now you're putting unrelated sentences together. :timeout:How long do you think the current growth will continue? Forever?Unknown, but it isn't inconcievable that a nation's crime rate could exceed another nation's. Or is Denmark just better than everyone else and immune from such problems?

Who'd know though? As you said, knowing the contributing factors to crime in a nation with a higher rate isn't important.Unless your physics show something I am not aware of, growths/increases tend to slow down and stabilize. Physics? Wrong discussion.

[Schroeder]

I believe it needs umlauts (sp):D
In the German version it does. Dänemark.:O:

[DarkFish]

Umm, right. Nice attempt at dodging the point.Or rather a nice attempt by you to twist the point of this topic.

I thought the point was one of being safe, but I guess one must continue to disregard the opposition's points if one has no real argument against them.Jeez, of course there are some places in which you're safer than others! I'm sure you're much safer in a rich neighbourhood in the USA than in a ghetto in Denmark. The point is than on *average* you're safer in Denmark than in the US.

Sensitve are we?Not at all.

The point I made earlier was the I personally rather live in a safe area of a country with a higher crime rate than a dangerous area in a country with a lower crime rate.

But you know how all of us Americans are just getting assaulted and murdered, right? :doh:Of course not all Americans get assaulted and murdered. But the odds of getting murdered etc. are much higher in the US than in Denmark.

Yeah, and of course you rather live in a safe area of an unsafe country than the other way around. The whole point is that *on average* your much better of in Denmark. Since statistics are always about averages, I can't see how you can suddenly involve particular neighbourhoods in it.
The easiest way of making statistics "flawed" is by just narrowing the group on which you apply the statistics. E.g. the average height of a Dutch man is 1.85m but if you narrow it to my family I can assure you that's a bit on the short side. This is exactly what you try to do by involving neighbourhoods.


The claim was not flawed - it was incomplete until you put it into the context of the paragraph.You claimed (or at the very least insinuated) that somehow the evidence I provided would not be valid because it might have been gathered in a different manner.
I have provided statistics. Now the burden is on you to prove your claim they are somehow not valid. Since you haven't done so, I assume you can't prove it and therefore your claim is invalid.

Now you're putting unrelated sentences together.My fault. In the reply window they were put together so I just assumed it belonged that way.:oops:

Unknown, but it isn't inconcievable that a nation's crime rate could exceed another nation's.It is possible. It's not likely however as the US got a rather large "headstart", and therefore the Danish crimerates have got a long time to stabilize themselves.

Who'd know though? As you said, knowing the contributing factors to crime in a nation with a higher rate isn't important.I didn't say it's always unimportant for everyone. I said it's unimportant in this particular discussion.

Physics? Wrong discussion.And maths are not?:doh:
Social processes like crime rates much more resemble physical processes than mathematical functions. Exponential growth? For a few years maybe, but at some moment the growth will decrease.

[Aramike]

Or rather a nice attempt by you to twist the point of this topic.I'm focusing on the discussion we're having. Is that troublesome?Jeez, of course there are some places in which you're safer than others! I'm sure you're much safer in a rich neighbourhood in the USA than in a ghetto in Denmark. The point is than on *average* you're safer in Denmark than in the US.Of course, I don't doubt that.

But I don't live "on average". Not at all.You must be. Going back to the original post, I took it to mean that the us Americans wouldn't want to see such explosive increases in such negative statistical categories. You somehow took that to mean "we are better than you".

Yes, the US has a higher rate of crime. No, I don't want to see such a growth in our crime rate as Denmark has. Like I said in my first post, this isn't about where we are AT, but where we are GOING.Of course not all Americans get assaulted and murdered. But the odds of getting murdered etc. are much higher in the US than in Denmark.

Yeah, and of course you rather live in a safe area of an unsafe country than the other way around. The whole point is that *on average* your much better of in Denmark. Since statistics are always about averages, I can't see how you can suddenly involve particular neighbourhoods in it.
The easiest way of making statistics "flawed" is by just narrowing the group on which you apply the statistics. E.g. the average height of a Dutch man is 1.85m but if you narrow it to my family I can assure you that's a bit on the short side. This is exactly what you try to do by involving neighbourhoods.Actually, I involved neighborhoods to demonstrate the fallacy of crime rates being directly proportionate with quality of lifeYou claimed (or at the very least insinuated) that somehow the evidence I provided would not be valid because it might have been gathered in a different manner.
I have provided statistics. Now the burden is on you to prove your claim they are somehow not valid. Since you haven't done so, I assume you can't prove it and therefore your claim is invalid.Read my post again before you start assigning any burdens. I don't dispute crime rate statistics. I stated the simple fact that the method of gathering of statistics are different, therefore an apple to apple comparison isn't possible. And while I stated the difference would be marginal, it was only PART of my point.

This is something a 9th grade math student would know.And maths are not?In statistics the methodology of data gathering is important.

But again, my point was never about disputing the difference.Social processes like crime rates much more resemble physical processes than mathematical functions. Exponential growth? For a few years maybe, but at some moment the growth will decrease. Actually, if you knew physics you'd understand that the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics says that opposite of what you said is true - systems don't, ON THEIR OWN, increase stability.