1WO means...

[themrwho]

I often see it as 'First Watch Officer' in here, is it not First Warrant Officer?

(src: http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/1WO )

Any online reading sources will be appreciated...

[frau kaleun]

In the lingo of the German Navy, 1WO or IWO is the abbreviation for Erster Wachoffizier, "First Watch Officer," in spoken German colloquially referred to as the "Eins W O" (pronounced Eins Vay Oh).

This would be the second in line of command on a German naval vessel, subordinate only to the kommandant of the ship - a commissioned officer, and roughly equivalent to an "XO" or Executive Officer.

Other designations would be used for a Warrant or Petty Officer in German naval terminology.

Good basic overview here:

http://www.uboat.net/men/crew/

Edit: not to be confused with the designation "Nummer Eins," often used to refer to the ship's Bootsmann, a (relatively high-ranking) non-commissioned officer who had responsibility over the enlisted men in matters of day-to-day operations and discipline.

[HW3]

Here is a link to a chart showing the Kreigsmarine rank and its equivalent rank in the U.S. Navy.

http://www.feldgrau.com/kmsranks.html

You will note there are no Warrant Officers in the U.S. Navy either. The 1WO would usually be a Oberfähnrich zur See or a Leutnant zur See.

[Jimbuna]

First Watch Officer...second in command to the Kaleun http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[frau kaleun]

Here is a link to a chart showing the Kreigsmarine rank and its equivalent rank in the U.S. Navy.

http://www.feldgrau.com/kmsranks.html

You will note there are no Warrant Officers in the U.S. Navy either. The 1WO would usually be a Oberfähnrich zur See or a Leutnant zur See.

:hmmm:

I'd think those ranks would more likely be seen at the Second Watch Officer position, with an Oberleutnant at 1WO, unless of course the kommandant was still an Oberleutnant. May have been much more common though as the war went on and training time was cut short and the number of available officers overall declined.

[Platapus]

One more reference saying what everyone else already said. :D

http://www.uboat.net/special/abbrevat.htm

[Tessa]

Here's (yet another) source (http://www.uniforminsignia.net/?option=com_insigniasearch&Itemid=53&result=579), though has some discrepencies in some of the ranks. Though probably unknown to most, SH3 completely leaves out the oberfeldwebel rank altogether with the NCO's. It would actually be possible to add all the additionally NCO and officer candidate ranks to the game; the correct ranking would go:

Feldwebel
Stabsfeldwebel
Oberfeldwebel
Stabsoberfeldwebel
Fanrich
Fanrich Zur see
Oberfanrich Zur see
-----------
Leutnant Zur see -> Comssioned Officer

That last three ranks enter a grey area that doesn't really exist anymore. To try and put into perspective of current ranks, a Fanrich would be the rank of a sailor when they go through OCS. When they wear their uniform (easiestly shown on the navy) its a blank black board with just the star, no single gold striple yet which would indicate an Ensign. In wartime sending someone to OCS for several months isn't always necessary when the sailor/soldier already has all the necessary skills (like Audie Murphy, was promoted from Sgt to Lt w/o going to OCS), and the final two being a Junior/Senior Midshipman. Though the game considers Oberfanrich Zur see to be an officer, they're really still a NCO but one thats advanced to officer training/advancement until they're ready to take an official commision.

This page gives some perfect example of (real) insignia used. (http://www.relichunter.com/kmotboards.jpg) You can see almost a rank by rank progression (top left to right) of fanrich/Oberfanrich Zur see/ Leutnant Zur see (Bottom row) Oberleutnant/Kaptianleutnant/Korvettenkapitan. I didn't enumerate each one since some are the same rank as the one to the left just with a qualifcation pin stuck on.

[ETR3(SS)]

Here is a link to a chart showing the Kreigsmarine rank and its equivalent rank in the U.S. Navy.

http://www.feldgrau.com/kmsranks.html

You will note there are no Warrant Officers in the U.S. Navy either. The 1WO would usually be a Oberfähnrich zur See or a Leutnant zur See.Just like to point out that those aren't US Navy ranks but more of a translation. They look like British ranks to me.

[HW3]

I'd think those ranks would more likely be seen at the Second Watch Officer position, with an Oberleutnant at 1WO, unless of course the kommandant was still an Oberleutnant. May have been much more common though as the war went on and training time was cut short and the number of available officers overall declined.

I agree frau that it was probably that way at the start of the war but, with Admiral Donitz rapidly building up the u-boat force as fast as he could from the start, I think that changed rather fast. I have noticed that a large number of kaleun listed at uboat.net were only Oberleutnant's when they first took command. I am also fairly sure that there were more than a few new Oberleutnant's as 1WO with a more experienced Oberleutnant as Kommandant. Of course this is just my opinion, and I could be way off base here.

[frau kaleun]

FWIW I doublechecked Mulligan's Neither Sharks Nor Wolves which is the most recent thing I've read that gives a fairly thorough overview of the "typical" crew makeup. He states that the 2WO was usually a Leutnant and adds that


By 1941, U-boat crews often included a midshipman (Fähnrich zur See) or two to understudy the watch officers of the LI... If a senior midshipman (Oberfähnrich), he might supervise the third bridge watch and assume an officer's duties. Regular midshipmen, however, did not enjoy officer status on board, ranking instead as the highest-paid noncommissioned officers (NOCs).


That's pretty much in line with everything else I've come across on the subject, which admittedly is far from an exhaustive study... I still think, though, that having even an Oberfähnrich as a First Watch Officer would be quite a stretch. That would make a mere midshipman the second ranking line officer on board which seems highly unlikely, especially since it's my understanding that someone at that level would not have been through the standard "commander training" courses yet.

Of course I could be way off on all of this, lol.

[Sailor Steve]

Edit: not to be confused with the designation "Nummer Eins," often used to refer to the ship's Bootsmann, a (relatively high-ranking) non-commissioned officer who had responsibility over the enlisted men in matters of day-to-day operations and discipline.
And that can be confusing because in the Royal Navy 'Number One' refers to the First Lieutenant, or First Mate, also the equivalent of the American 'XO'.

In the US Navy some quirk of etymology eliminated the 'Boatswain' (pronounce "Bosun" - the German 'Bootsmann') from the picture altogether. There are 'Boatswain's Mates', but the senior of them is the 'Chief Boatwain's Mate', never a Bosun himself. But what makes it confusing to an American is that the Chief Of the Boat, or COB, is called "Chief", the translation given to the LI in Das Boot. And the 1WO is translated as "Number One" in the movie, whereas in the book that title was appropriately given to the senior enlisted man.

Just like to point out that those aren't US Navy ranks but more of a translation. They look like British ranks to me.
Yes, those are without question RN ranks, not US. Funny thing is that when I was in (1970) we did have Warrant Officers, since to a Chief Petty Officer the rank of Ensign could hardly be considered a step up.

[frau kaleun]

But what makes it confusing to an American is that the Chief Of the Boat, or COB, is called "Chief", the translation given to the LI in Das Boot. And the 1WO is translated as "Number One" in the movie, whereas in the book that title was appropriately given to the senior enlisted man.

Which is one reason I think I started trying to figure out what the characters were calling each other in German, rather than relying on dubbing or subtitles. Because I remember the scene where the guy who is clearly the second in command talks to the Bootsmann and addresses him as "Nummer Eins" which I knew in German meant "Number One"... and I thought, well, if he's called "Number One" then this other guy can't be called that as well in general parlance.

That and I couldn't figure out what it was Der Alte kept calling the Chief Engineer ("Ell-ee") and it was repeated often enough that I knew it was some form of standard address and I didn't think it would be his actual name or nickname. And of course the "Herr Kaleun" which I knew couldn't be his name and had to be some reference to his rank but I had to look it up to find out.

Just another thing that makes the movie a continuing source of fascination - so many things are just "there" because that's the way it was and they don't beat you over the head with explaining those little details, you just have to figure it out from the context or look it up if you're that curious... which obviously I am, lol. I guess it might be different for someone intimately familiar with the language since there's no confusion caused by clumsy dubbing or subtitles that are a little too Anglicized.

[frau kaleun]

And that can be confusing because in the Royal Navy 'Number One' refers to the First Lieutenant, or First Mate, also the equivalent of the American 'XO'.

Well this must be right because that's the way Picard does it. :O:

[Tessa]

In the US Navy some quirk of etymology eliminated the 'Boatswain' (pronounce "Bosun" - the German 'Bootsmann') from the picture altogether. There are 'Boatswain's Mates', but the senior of them is the 'Chief Boatwain's Mate', never a Bosun himself. But what makes it confusing to an American is that the Chief Of the Boat, or COB, is called "Chief", the translation given to the LI in Das Boot. And the 1WO is translated as "Number One" in the movie, whereas in the book that title was appropriately given to the senior enlisted man.

Something that's been bugging me for a long time since someone made another comment about it, what is the chief's rank in Das Boot? At the beginning of the movie when he's wearing the black coat he's got 2 strikes and an officer hat. From that it looks like he's an Oberleutnant Z.s. He dines with the officers so he's got to be an Oberleutnant or a senior NCO rank (US equivalent like a senior chief petty officer or master chief petty officer) which would be fanrich/oberfanrich Z.s. in German.

They're aren't many shots of him where you can see his shoulder boards, they look like line officer boards with 1 pip, the board is too wide to be a Fanrich Z.s. but he isn't singled out as an officer like the #1 and 2 are but is treated and given the repsect like a good #1 would, or the senior NCO of a high rank.

[Markus Witt]

Which is one reason I think I started trying to figure out what the characters were calling each other in German, rather than relying on dubbing or subtitles. Because I remember the scene where the guy who is clearly the second in command talks to the Bootsmann and addresses him as "Nummer Eins" which I knew in German meant "Number One"... and I thought, well, if he's called "Number One" then this other guy can't be called that as well in general parlance.



Isn't this guy also reffered to as "obersteuermann" in the movie. This confused me as it sounds like the first officer.
During the diner scenes in the movie you see the kaleun, Li, and two watch officers at the dinner table. Seeing that let me conclude that apparently the obersteuermann was on the bridge at that time and was in fact the first officer.
This would make sense as the first officer (chief mate) is on duty during dinner time. At least that's what I'm used too in the merchant fleet (1ON taking the 04-08 and 16-20 watch)

However in the movie in other scenes it becomes apparent that the "obersteuermann" is not an officer but an NCO. But if this is the case, then who is on the bridge during dinner?
You would surely expect an officer in charge of the bridge watch.
I would expect 3 watch officers on a U-boat to cover all the conventional watches, but if the obersteuermann is an NCO, then in Das Boot apparently they only have two. This still confuses me. :damn:

Anybody knows how many watch officers U-boats normally had and what watch system they used?

[JScones]

Anybody knows how many watch officers U-boats normally had and what watch system they used?
4 Watch Officers, with 3 and 4 being split between Nav and Bosun. 4 hour watches.

1WO and 2WO did 2 x 4 hour watch shifts per day <---Commissioned officers from line stream
Navigator (Oberstuermann) and Bosun 1 x 4 hour watch shift per day <---Yes, SNCOs, not commissioned officers, aka 3WO and 4WO
Lookouts came mainly from Seaman stream doing 1 x 4 hour watch shift per day

As confirmed in the first two reference books I just laid my hands on:
U-boats by Miller, David
U-boat Crewman Of WWII by Williamson, Gordon

[frau kaleun]

Something that's been bugging me for a long time since someone made another comment about it, what is the chief's rank in Das Boot? At the beginning of the movie when he's wearing the black coat he's got 2 strikes and an officer hat. From that it looks like he's an Oberleutnant Z.s.

He's an Oberleutnant (Ing.), an engineering officer, and the Leitender Ingenieur (leading engineer) on the boat. An Oblt z. See would be a line officer, one who was in the chain of command. While the LI might be the second most important officer on a u-boat (after the kommandant) in a practical sense because his duties were so vital and all-encompassing in technical matters, he would never be in line for a command regardless of his rank. He might actually have the same rank as the kommandant, nevertheless a lower-ranking 1WO would be next in line of command if the kommandant were killed or incapacitated.

Engineering officers had a cogwheel (?) insignia on their uniforms, rather than a star, to indicate their specialty and distinguish them from line officers.

http://www.uboat.net/men/uniforms/images/vadming.jpg http://www.uboat.net/men/uniforms/images/ingoff.jpg

[JScones]

In some instances, particularly later in the war, the LI was higher in rank than the Commander, and certainly higher in rank than the 1WO.

The LI would never be considered for Commanding because he chose the Engineering officer stream rather than the Line officer stream. Much like the Doctor who chose the Medical officer stream (after it was created later in the war).

[frau kaleun]

Isn't this guy also reffered to as "obersteuermann" in the movie. This confused me as it sounds like the first officer.
During the diner scenes in the movie you see the kaleun, Li, and two watch officers at the dinner table. Seeing that let me conclude that apparently the obersteuermann was on the bridge at that time and was in fact the first officer.
This would make sense as the first officer (chief mate) is on duty during dinner time. At least that's what I'm used too in the merchant fleet (1ON taking the 04-08 and 16-20 watch)

However in the movie in other scenes it becomes apparent that the "obersteuermann" is not an officer but an NCO. But if this is the case, then who is on the bridge during dinner?
You would surely expect an officer in charge of the bridge watch.
I would expect 3 watch officers on a U-boat to cover all the conventional watches, but if the obersteuermann is an NCO, then in Das Boot apparently they only have two. This still confuses me. :damn:


The Obersteuermann was the Chief Navigator and Quartermaster for the boat and usually (in real life) the senior ranking NCO aboard (which sometimes also made him the oldest and most experienced man, even including the COs). The game does not reflect this, as the Navigation Officer is indeed treated like a commissioned officer and not a highranking enlisted man.

Very often he took the third watch. The 1WO had the first watch, and the 2WO the second. The commander of the boat did not take any particular watch, those duties belonged to his junior officers and the higher-ranking NCOs.

The guys who eat in the "officer's mess" in the movie are the commander , the chief engineer, the first watch officer, and the second watch officer, plus the "guest" - war correspondent Werner. The same space also doubled as living quarters for the LI, the 1WO, and the 2WO. The Obersteuermann would have eaten and slept in the senior NCO quarters which (on a Type VII) were located between the officer's mess and the hatch to the forward torpedo room.




In Das Boot the line officers were:
The Kommandant, "der Alte," "Herr Kaleun" - by rank a Kapitänleutnant, first in command
The First Watch Officer or 1WO/IWO, "Eins W O," the guy who came originally from Mexico and who seems to have bought into Nazi propaganda, and who gets "ordered" to play the "Tipperary song" during one of the officers' meals - an Oberleutnant zur See and second in command
The Second Watch Officer, who jokes (in the subtitles) that the 1WO could crack nuts in his backside and gives the fake "alarm" that sends the boat into its first practice crash dive - a Leutnant zur See and third in command
The LI or "chief" was also a commissioned officer, by rank an Oberleutnant (Ing.), in practice the guy most likely to be deferred to by the commander due to his technical expertise, but not actually in the line of command. He usually sits next to the commander at meals in the officer's mess. He's the one who tears up looking at pictures of his wife and who the commander tries to get off the ship (along with Werner, the writer) in Vigo.

Werner, the war correspondent, was a Leutnant but as an observer and "guest on board" would have had no real authority regardless of rank.

The scene early in the film where the officers are eating and the 1WO excuses himself to go to the bridge for his watch presumably shows the boat's "midday" meal, since the First Watch would have taken its second turn of the day beginning at 1200 hours. In the extended version the Obersteuermann is then shown reporting to the commander after the end of his turn on the bridge, which makes sense since he would have been in charge of the Third Watch which would have been coming off duty when the First Watch went up.

Edit: I do think there may be one instance in the film where the commander addresses his 1WO as "nummer eins" - but the 1WO definitely refers to the Bootsmann as "nummer eins" when he asks him where the medic is after the LI informs him he's got crabs crawling around in his eyebrows. The Bootsmann as "nummer eins" would be the NCO responsible for seeing to the day-to-day routine and discipline of the rest of the enlisted men. This is the guy who gave Werner the tour of the boat when they first put out to sea, and who is seen supervising the torpedo maintenance in the scene where Werner gets the oily rag thrown in his face. The Obersteuermann is a completely different guy.

[Sailor Steve]

Isn't this guy also reffered to as "obersteuermann" in the movie. This confused me as it sounds like the first officer.
'Der Alte' ('The Elder' or 'The Old Man') holds the rank of Kapitanleutnant, hence of course "Herr Kaleun"

Only two men are referred to as "Watch Officers". The 1WO ('the nazi') is an Oberleutnant, just like the LI. The 2WO ('the jokester') is a Leutnant, just like Werner. The Obersteurmann is Kriechbaum, the senior man to actually be given a name. His rank is Oberfanrich, which I originally thought of as the equivalent of an American Ensign, but apparently is the closest thing the KM had to an actual Warrant Officer. He does serve as 3WO, though he is never called that.

In SH3 the Oberfanriches are listed as officers.

[frau kaleun]

The Obersteurmann is Kriechbaum, the senior man to actually be given a name. His rank is Oberfanrich, which I originally thought of as the equivalent of an American Ensign, but apparently is the closest thing the KM had to an actual Warrant Officer.

I have to disagree. Being an Oberfähnrich would make him a midshipman, and on his way to being a commissioned officer - whereas in the book he is definitely listed among the enlisted men. Ullman, who as a Fähnrich actually is an officer candidate, is the only one listed as an "ensign" in the English translation.

Every source I've looked at indicates that navigation as a career track was an enlisted man's specialty, the Chief Navigator on a boat typically being a high-ranking NCO and not a commissioned officer or in line to become one (the occasional Volksoffizier notwithstanding).

[Mittelwaechter]

Kriechbaum is Obersteuermann - not Oberfaehnrich.

Faehnrich (midshipman) is the lowest rank in an officers career - promoted to Oberfaehnrich (senior midshipman) - promoted to Leutnant (the first 'Officer' rank) - promoted to Oberleutnant...

Obersteuermann is the rank of a staff sergeant or master sergeant.

[Markus Witt]

Thanks for the info. I kinda expected three commisioned officers as watch officers. :hmmm: Didn't know about the two NCO's sharing a watch.
Also obersteuermann sounds like an officer to me and in the Gibraltar scene in the movie the kaleun takes only the obersteuermann with him to the bridge.
But I guess this would make sense in real life as he would probably be older and more experienced then the two watch officers. Well, it's all clear to me now. :salute:
Maybe I should watch the movie again.

[Sailor Steve]

Kriechbaum is Obersteuermann - not Oberfaehnrich.
Obersteuermann is a job, not a rank. What is his rank?

[Sailor Steve]

I have to disagree. Being an Oberfähnrich would make him a midshipman, and on his way to being a commissioned officer - whereas in the book he is definitely listed among the enlisted men. Ullman, who as a Fähnrich actually is an officer candidate, is the only one listed as an "ensign" in the English translation.

Every source I've looked at indicates that navigation as a career track was an enlisted man's specialty, the Chief Navigator on a boat typically being a high-ranking NCO and not a commissioned officer or in line to become one (the occasional Volksoffizier notwithstanding).
Fair enough. I thought that was what he was. Looks like I was wrong. Again. :sunny:

[frau kaleun]

Obersteuermann is a job, not a rank. What is his rank?

I don't know that Kriechbaum's rank is ever specifically indicated in the movie, unless it's possible to determine what it was from looking at what's shown of him in uniform with visible insignia. He would most likely be a high-ranking NCO. Given what I've read it seems like once an enlisted man was put on a particular track with regard to specialty training, he was more likely to be thought of in terms of his position within that specialty than anything else.

The senior NCOs on a uboat (this is taken from Mulligan's Neither Sharks Nor Wolves and mirrors what I've found elsewhere) in terms of official "rank" would most likely be "Oberfeldwebel, officially designated (but rarely called) Unteroffiziere mit Portepee (literally "non-commissioned officers with sword-knot") who performed the functions equivalent to those of warrant officers, a category gradually dropped by the German navy by 1936."

These guys would have been enlisted men, ranking above all the other enlisted men on board, but not COs and not eligible for a CO rank (altho as I noted before, there were some Volksoffiziere - "people's officers" - men who rose through the ranks of enlisted men and for one reason or another eventually received a commission). But the job description would become the individual's primary designation, rather than his rank, which although recognized in terms of his authority on board overall is less likely to factor in to what he's called in the everyday language of the service. For instance, nobody ever addresses Kriechbaum as "Herr Oberfeldwebel" or whatever his actual rank was. He's "Herr Obersteuermann," and as der Alte's very pointed use of the term on one occasion illustrates, that designation alone is more than enough to indicate his place in the scheme of things.

And I don't think it's surprising that, in a situation where technical expertise in one field or another was of such vital importance, a crewman's special training and experience in his field would take precedence in everyday parlance over everything else.

The senior NCOs who made up this group aboard the typical boat would consist of, at the very least, the Obersteuermann (chief navigator), a Bootsmann or Oberbootsmann (the "nummer eins" I referred to earlier, responsible for crew discipline), a Diesel Obermaschinist and an Elektro Obermaschinist (directly subordinate to the LI and responsible for the diesel engines and electric motors/batteries respectively).

In Das Boot, these would be Kriechbaum, Lamprecht (or Lumprecht - anyway, the guy who gives Werner the tour of the boat), Johann, and the one other guy who I don't think is ever named. But I assume he is the guy you see sitting in the background, framed between Werner and the 2WO, sitting in the senior NCOs' quarters and facing the o-messe, gaily singing along with the Tipperary song. Like the other three who are named, as a senior NCO he would have eaten and slept in that compartment. There's also a scene when they are frantically engaged in damage control (may have been at Gibraltar) where the LI is working on something, I think in the diesel room, and there's a close-up of him ordering another man who has just appeared on the scene to go check the batteries (?) and I'm pretty sure he addresses him as "E-Maschinist." A bit later I think we see this same guy either performing or supervising the work on the batteries, before the LI arrives to go down to look for himself. I'm pretty sure this guy would be the Elektro Obermaschinist since the upkeep and repair of the batteries would have been among his primary duties on board.

In conclusion, I have seen Das Boot way too many times.

[frau kaleun]

Thanks for the info. I kinda expected three commisioned officers as watch officers. :hmmm: Didn't know about the two NCO's sharing a watch.
Also obersteuermann sounds like an officer to me and in the Gibraltar scene in the movie the kaleun takes only the obersteuermann with him to the bridge.
But I guess this would make sense in real life as he would probably be older and more experienced then the two watch officers. Well, it's all clear to me now. :salute:
Maybe I should watch the movie again.

In a lot of RL stuff I've read about the uboat service, it becomes clear that - especially in critical situations - a person's ability and experience were usually valued far more than his actual rank. A sharp pair of eyes on the bridge, or a skilled pair of hands on the controls, were more valuable than any number of pips and stripes on a uniform. And a successful commander's success often depended on his ability to see the strengths and weaknesses of each crewman and proceed accordingly.

In the movie - despite a few tense moments - it seems clear that the commander values Kriechbaum a great deal. When he tells his senior men his plan for getting past Gibraltar, the Obersteuermann is the only one he makes a point of looking to for a response. It may have been that all he wanted was something that would provide some additional sense of assurance to the rest of the crew, even if Kriechbaum knew better; nevertheless that's who he went to for it.

In the book der Alte's regard for the man is even more obvious - the navigator is a veteran member of the crew, and one whose skill (particularly when it comes to dead reckoning) the commander makes particular mention of on at least one occasion. He may very well have spent far more hours at sea with Kriechbaum than with anyone else besides the LI, and maybe more than with anyone else from among the non-technical crew. Kriechbaum would also be an old hand at standing watch on the bridge, and may have done more of it than any of the junior COs aboard. That's definitely the guy you want on the bridge when you're trying to slip past "half the English fleet" in the Straits of Gibraltar.

And regarding "Obersteuermann":

ober = upper, over, above
Steuer = rudder
Mann = man

So the word literally means something along the lines of "upper rudder man," or "the guy in charge of steering the boat." Hence Obersteuermann = Chief Navigator. :D

[frau kaleun]

For what it's worth, a table comparing ranks among the different branches of the Wehrmacht can be found here:

http://www.feldgrau.com/ranks.html

For the Kriegsmarine we have:

Seamen (Matrosen)
Matrose
Matrosengefreiter
Matrosenobergefreiter
Matrosenhauptgefreiter
Matrosenstabsgefreiter

NCOs (Unteroffiziere)
Maat
Obermaat
Feldwebel
Stabsfeldwebel
Oberfeldwebel
Stabsoberfeldwebel

(Midshipmen)
Fähnrich zur See
Oberfähnrich zur See

COs (Offiziere)
Leutnant zur See
Oberleutnant zur See
Kapitänleutnant
Korvettenkapitän
Fregattenkapitän
Kapitän zur See
(...and so on, the rest were unlikely to be found on a frontboot)

The table at the link shows the rank of Fähnrich zur See falling between the NCO ranks of Obermaat and Feldwebel; Oberfähnrich zur See falls in between the NCO ranks of Oberfeldwebel and Stabsoberfeldwebel. This would correlate reasonably well to the position of midshipmen in the modern US Navy, which seems to be somewhere between a Warrant Officer and a Chief Warrant Officer.

It's when you start talking about the division of the crew into Seemänner (Seaman's Division) and Techniker (Technical Division) that it really gets confusing, because that's where you get into the issue of crewmen being referred to primarily with regard to their job or specialty and the most commonly used appellation may include some reference to their rank but may not.

On a fun note I just came across the term Tampen-johnnies which apparently means "rope jockeys" and which I swear I can remember the bosun using at some point in the movie when he's addressing the men under his supervision.

[JScones]

There are no direct equivalents to Fähnrich and Oberfähnrich in any non-German based armed force. They are strictly neither ensigns or midshipmen in the US or UK sense. They can be, however, considered a subset of midshipman for the purpose of easy explanation.

Progression was (generally, although with exception) thus:

Officer recruit
Seekadet (upon successful completion of physical fitness test and four months sail training)
Fähnrich (upon successful completion of a 9-12 month sea cruise aboard, usually, a cruiser). A Fähnrich would generally assume the role of 2WO
Oberfähnrich (upon successful completion of weapons training and subsequent satifactory performance onboard a warship for six months)
Leutnant z. S. (after three years of trade practice)

The Oberfähnrich requirements were different for Engineering stream and Medical stream.

FWIW there's been a lot posted here over the last five years regarding crew ranks, roles and responsibilities; I know I've posted a fair bit (U-boat crews are a speciality of mine thanks to much research when developing SH3Cmdr).

[Sailor Steve]

I don't know that Kriechbaum's rank is ever specifically indicated in the movie, unless it's possible to determine what it was from looking at what's shown of him in uniform with visible insignia.
Thanks. I actually was specifically asking Mittelwaechter, since he seemed to think I was confusing the two.

[frau kaleun]

There are no direct equivalents to Fähnrich and Oberfähnrich in any non-German based armed force. They are strictly neither ensigns or midshipmen in the US or UK sense. They can be, however, considered a subset of midshipman for the purpose of easy explanation.

Yeah, there's really no term/rank that matches up exactly. "Midshipmen" just seems like the handiest term to use to indicate their relative status (at least at Fähnrich or above) when serving on a u-boat.

[Sailor Steve]

Maybe it's German for "Noob".

[frau kaleun]

Maybe it's German for "Noob".

:rotfl2:

[Draka]

For a real detailed chart with illustrations, go to this web site:

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/

Now drill down by the links on the left - Uniformen - Kriegsmarine - Kriegsmarine Laufbahnen/detailed rank system (no graphics)

This is the most extensive chart I have EVER seen on this - and the other pages on this site amplify on it.


p.s. Try getting ALL those ranks in SH3!!!

[Tessa]

He's an Oberleutnant (Ing.), an engineering officer, and the Leitender Ingenieur (leading engineer) on the boat. An Oblt z. See would be a line officer, one who was in the chain of command. While the LI might be the second most important officer on a u-boat (after the kommandant) in a practical sense because his duties were so vital and all-encompassing in technical matters, he would never be in line for a command regardless of his rank. He might actually have the same rank as the kommandant, nevertheless a lower-ranking 1WO would be next in line of command if the kommandant were killed or incapacitated.

Engineering officers had a cogwheel (?) insignia on their uniforms, rather than a star, to indicate their specialty and distinguish them from line officers.

http://www.uboat.net/men/uniforms/images/vadming.jpg http://www.uboat.net/men/uniforms/images/ingoff.jpg

That's what I though, I've very familiar with the shoulder boards as I've got a few (real ones), getting a good or clear look at most of them is tough; especially when each different jacket/uniform they have might have a slightly different set of pips or the shoulder boards themselves were different - there were two types of shoulder boards, ones that were sewn onto the garment and a slip on type that were easy to take on or off (much rarer to find). The cogwheel is indeed for engineering, actually the graphics used in SH3 for all the qualifications are exactly like what the real ones were.

One thing I never understood is why he's not eligible for getting his own ship/command. I can understand that the medic or a radioman wouldn't be due to their specialized training and wouldn't be familiar with the workings of the ship. An engineer would know the ship inside and out, and be next to the captain in situations were he was issuing orders (like when moving while submerged). In the US the captain of a carrier is usually a (former) pilot, airboss, etc or on a BB the captain could come from any number of trades.

Something I find interesting, the guy who is always writting the love letters to his girlfriend is actually a Fanrich (at one point he's laying on his stomach on a bunk and can see the shoulder board clearly. It would make him senior to all the other NCO's but he's never treated as such.

[JScones]

One thing I never understood is why he's not eligible for getting his own ship/command. I can understand that the medic or a radioman wouldn't be due to their specialized training and wouldn't be familiar with the workings of the ship.
Because he joined the engineering officer stream, not the line officer stream. Different training, different skills, different duty statement. He's trained as an engineer, not as a leader. The mere fact he signed up in the engineering stream might even imply that he wants nothing to do with commanding a boat, in much the same way that a guy signing up in the line officer stream might want nothing to do with tinkering with boat engines.

He's not just an officer who happens to have an engineering qualification, he's a career engineer.

An engineer would know the ship inside and out, and be next to the captain in situations were he was issuing orders (like when moving while submerged).
Knowing the mechanics of the ship does not automatically make him an effective leader. Completely different focus.

[Tessa]

I don't know that Kriechbaum's rank is ever specifically indicated in the movie, unless it's possible to determine what it was from looking at what's shown of him in uniform with visible insignia. He would most likely be a high-ranking NCO. Given what I've read it seems like once an enlisted man was put on a particular track with regard to specialty training, he was more likely to be thought of in terms of his position within that specialty than anything else.

The senior NCOs on a uboat (this is taken from Mulligan's Neither Sharks Nor Wolves and mirrors what I've found elsewhere) in terms of official "rank" would most likely be "Oberfeldwebel, officially designated (but rarely called) Unteroffiziere mit Portepee (literally "non-commissioned officers with sword-knot") who performed the functions equivalent to those of warrant officers, a category gradually dropped by the German navy by 1936."

These guys would have been enlisted men, ranking above all the other enlisted men on board, but not COs and not eligible for a CO rank (altho as I noted before, there were some Volksoffiziere - "people's officers" - men who rose through the ranks of enlisted men and for one reason or another eventually received a commission). But the job description would become the individual's primary designation, rather than his rank, which although recognized in terms of his authority on board overall is less likely to factor in to what he's called in the everyday language of the service. For instance, nobody ever addresses Kriechbaum as "Herr Oberfeldwebel" or whatever his actual rank was. He's "Herr Obersteuermann," and as der Alte's very pointed use of the term on one occasion illustrates, that designation alone is more than enough to indicate his place in the scheme of things.

And I don't think it's surprising that, in a situation where technical expertise in one field or another was of such vital importance, a crewman's special training and experience in his field would take precedence in everyday parlance over everything else.

The senior NCOs who made up this group aboard the typical boat would consist of, at the very least, the Obersteuermann (chief navigator), a Bootsmann or Oberbootsmann (the "nummer eins" I referred to earlier, responsible for crew discipline), a Diesel Obermaschinist and an Elektro Obermaschinist (directly subordinate to the LI and responsible for the diesel engines and electric motors/batteries respectively).

In Das Boot, these would be Kriechbaum, Lamprecht (or Lumprecht - anyway, the guy who gives Werner the tour of the boat), Johann, and the one other guy who I don't think is ever named. But I assume he is the guy you see sitting in the background, framed between Werner and the 2WO, sitting in the senior NCOs' quarters and facing the o-messe, gaily singing along with the Tipperary song. Like the other three who are named, as a senior NCO he would have eaten and slept in that compartment. There's also a scene when they are frantically engaged in damage control (may have been at Gibraltar) where the LI is working on something, I think in the diesel room, and there's a close-up of him ordering another man who has just appeared on the scene to go check the batteries (?) and I'm pretty sure he addresses him as "E-Maschinist." A bit later I think we see this same guy either performing or supervising the work on the batteries, before the LI arrives to go down to look for himself. I'm pretty sure this guy would be the Elektro Obermaschinist since the upkeep and repair of the batteries would have been among his primary duties on board.

In conclusion, I have seen Das Boot way too many times.

:haha: You can never see it too many times. Frequently I put it on the TV when I'm playing SH as good background mood; though not paying attention to the whole movie (just watching w/o multitasking) I'd probably say the discs have been played at least 250+ times.

The cool thing about the crew on the ships is that the ship is really one that is (at the time) part of the old bunch. You've got several Oberleutnant's, and a lot of mid ranking NCO's. The crew was very experienced and everyone knew what to do and how to do it, wouldn't have been any on the job training or noobs on board like it was later in the war.

The navigator and Joahan are the two most senior NCO's that I can make out, both are oberfeldwebels and the one fanrich (Joahans high rank partly explains why he was so scarred of getting court-marshalled, the other part being its a court-marshall, not an experience any soldier wants to go through). In the modern navy I think that both their converted ranks would be a senior chief petty officer, or a E-8 (just 1 step below the highest NCO rank possible). To make that rank today you're looking of at least 20 years, probably would get it between 22-25 unless they were in a lot a major combat. For Joahan to get busted back down to an E-1 Matrose.

Though its scanned from an old and hard to find book here's a good visual on how the shoulder boards looked:

http://pelsia.files.wordpress.com/2010/08/ranks1944navy.jpg


In the middle of the board would be their trade, same as the ones used in SH for qualifications. What can get confusing is that there a variant that was used on the devices, the common ones had just the trade insignia, and sometimes you'll see ones with an anchor and the trade is overlaid (though constuction is one-piece) on top of the anchor. While there's been several posted already, this chart is the best one I've ever seen for comparing the ranks:

http://ww2db.com/other.php?other_id=30

It's got the British, US and even Japanese ranks all laid out with warrant officers and everything (just no images).

[Tessa]

Because he joined the engineering officer stream, not the line officer stream. Different training, different skills, different duty statement. He's trained as an engineer, not as a leader. The mere fact he signed up in the engineering stream might even imply that he wants nothing to do with commanding a boat, in much the same way that a guy signing up in the line officer stream might want nothing to do with tinkering with boat engines.

He's not just an officer who happens to have an engineering qualification, he's a career engineer.

It makes more sense now, was thinking about some friends of mine that are on active duty and a couple are specialist in their field (not just someone that's doing that job because they've been assigned to it) and all they do and focus on is their trade/rating. They can still fire a rifle, but would have no clue how to direct artillery fire or some other common position. Just seems strange to go the officer/command route you choose no trade at all and are like a gopher until you get admitted to OCS.

[Mittelwaechter]

@sailor steve

Obersteuermann is the correct naming for Kriechbaum's rank.
He follows a Steuermann (Navigator) career - a specialist career - and the rank is equivalent to Oberfeldwebel (master sergeant) in the common army ranking system.
A radio operator career (Funker in German) of the same rank would be Oberfunkmeister.

[frau kaleun]

For a real detailed chart with illustrations, go to this web site:

http://www.wwiidaybyday.com/

Now drill down by the links on the left - Uniformen - Kriegsmarine - Kriegsmarine Laufbahnen/detailed rank system (no graphics)

This is the most extensive chart I have EVER seen on this - and the other pages on this site amplify on it.


p.s. Try getting ALL those ranks in SH3!!!

Wow, thanks. That is awesome. :rock:

[frau kaleun]

Something I find interesting, the guy who is always writting the love letters to his girlfriend is actually a Fanrich (at one point he's laying on his stomach on a bunk and can see the shoulder board clearly. It would make him senior to all the other NCO's but he's never treated as such.

I don't think someone at the rank would be considered senior to all the NCOs - he's on the track to be a CO, but not there yet, and thus wouldn't get "officer status" in the field. As noted upthread there's really no exact equivalent for the rank in US/UK navy terms but it seems like his position would be roughly the same as a midshipman in the US Navy. As a Fähnrich and not an Oberfähnrich he'd probably fall right where his bunk assignment indicates, among the less-senior NCOs.

[Sailor Steve]

It makes more sense now, was thinking about some friends of mine that are on active duty and a couple are specialist in their field (not just someone that's doing that job because they've been assigned to it) and all they do and focus on is their trade/rating. They can still fire a rifle, but would have no clue how to direct artillery fire or some other common position. Just seems strange to go the officer/command route you choose no trade at all and are like a gopher until you get admitted to OCS.
Where are you from? I ask because the system used in the KM is paralleled in the Royal Navy. In the sailing-ship days a gunner was considered something of a wizard, with magical abilities that separated him from real sailors; hence he was exempt from all regular sailor duties.

When steam came into common use the same thing happened. An engineer is not a real sailor, which means he is both more and less than the regular command structure. He isn't trained in anything to do with the running of the ship, and other officers aren't trained in engineering.

The reason I asked where you are from is that if you are American, none of that makes sense, because in the US navy officers aren't specialists. On my ship we had a Radio Officer; over him was a Comm officer, and over him was the XO. We also had an engineering officer, but these were all officers learning different jobs, and they all had pretty much the same career track, and barring stupid mistakes and bad luck they would all someday be an exec and then a captain.

[Sailor Steve]

@sailor steve

Obersteuermann is the correct naming for Kriechbaum's rank.
He follows a Steuermann (Navigator) career - a specialist career - and the rank is equivalent to Oberfeldwebel (master sergeant) in the common army ranking system.
A radio operator career (Funker in German) of the same rank would be Oberfunkmeister.
Looking over the chart supplied by Draka I see that now. Thanks for the explanation, and the correction. The things we think we know...

[desirableroasted]

The table at the link shows the rank of Fähnrich zur See falling between the NCO ranks of Obermaat and Feldwebel; Oberfähnrich zur See falls in between the NCO ranks of Oberfeldwebel and Stabsoberfeldwebel. This would correlate reasonably well to the position of midshipmen in the modern US Navy, which seems to be somewhere between a Warrant Officer and a Chief Warrant Officer.

Love the information you are all providing; this is a highly-educational thread.

But one point: in the modern US Navy a midshipman is most certainly not somewhere between a Warrant Officer (which the Navy does not have) and a Chief Warrant Officer.

CWOs are carefully selected from the NCO ranks because of their technical expertise, and fill positions where you want an officer and a specialist (officers are expected to be generalists). Commanders love them, the NCOs and sailors love them. Junior officers don't much like them, but if they are smart they can gain a lot of knowledge.

Midshipmen are, as others have pointed out, simply officer candidates. I say "simply" because they have no function except to watch and learn. And they are not even saluted by sailors and NCOs (whereas a CWO certainly is).

So the juxtaposition on the chart is unfortunate -- the two classes have (in modern navies) nothing to do with one another.

Anyway, a digression that has little to do with the game.

[frau kaleun]

Love the information you are all providing; this is a highly-educational thread.

But one point: in the modern US Navy a midshipman is most certainly not somewhere between a Warrant Officer (which the Navy does not have) and a Chief Warrant Officer.

CWOs are carefully selected from the NCO ranks because of their technical expertise, and fill positions where you want an officer and a specialist (officers are expected to be generalists). Commanders love them, the NCOs and sailors love them. Junior officers don't much like them, but if they are smart they can gain a lot of knowledge.

Midshipmen are, as others have pointed out, simply officer candidates. I say "simply" because they have no function except to watch and learn. And they are not even saluted by sailors and NCOs (whereas a CWO certainly is).

So the juxtaposition on the chart is unfortunate -- the two classes have (in modern navies) nothing to do with one another.

Anyway, a digression that has little to do with the game.

Thanks for the clarification - I can't remember where I read that about midshipmen in the US Navy, only that it was trying to indicate where to place them in a theoretical hierarchy since as you noted they are not accorded the same status as an officer and are there primarily for training purposes. It was more a matter of what to compare the KM officer candidate ranks to, and where to place them on a list of ranks, since putting them in with the CO ranks seems to confuse the issue with regard to their actual status when serving as part of a typical crew.

I'm pretty sure though that Steve mentioned there being Warrant Officers during his time in the service? Which doesn't mean they're still there, but I guess I meant "modern" navy in a broader sense than just the years since then.

[Sailor Steve]

Midshipmen started out in the Royal Sailing Navy as novice officers. There was no Acadamy, and no OCS. A boy would go to see as a Midshipman and remain so until his superiors determined that he was qualified to become a junior Lieutenant.

As far as I know "Midshipman" is a title reserved for members of the Naval Acadamy or OCS.

I'm pretty sure though that Steve mentioned there being Warrant Officers during his time in the service? Which doesn't mean they're still there, but I guess I meant "modern" navy in a broader sense than just the years since then.
I don't know about today's navy either. Warrant Officer was technically between a Chief Petty Officer and an Ensign, but garnered all the respect of a senior officer, which a Chief already gets anyway, so I never saw what the point was (except maybe more pay).

Likewise 'Commodore'. In the US Navy 'Commodore' was a temporary title bestowed upon a Captain while he was in command of a squadron. In 1982 the official rank of Commodore was established, but in 1983 it was changed back to its original 'Rear Admiral (Lower Half)'.

[desirableroasted]

I don't know about today's navy either. Warrant Officer was technically between a Chief Petty Officer and an Ensign, but garnered all the respect of a senior officer, which a Chief already gets anyway, so I never saw what the point was (except maybe more pay).

Likewise 'Commodore'. In the US Navy 'Commodore' was a temporary title bestowed upon a Captain while he was in command of a squadron. In 1982 the official rank of Commodore was established, but in 1983 it was changed back to its original 'Rear Admiral (Lower Half)'.

Most of the CWOs I knew were in training billets or technical oversight where you needed an officer's authority and a chief's experience. For example, a Cryptologic Technician Master Chief PO might become a CWO and be assigned to manage and develop part of the Navy-wide CT training program.

I was in the US Navy in Washington when it introduced and withdrew the Commodore rank. Boy, that outraged a bunch of captains and admirals. At the time, the Navy had no "one star" rank.. you went directly from "Captain" to "Rear Admiral" -- like going from Colonel to Major General in the Army or Marines -- so your Army Brigadier General with 30 years experience was suddenly having to say "sir" to Navy Rear Admiral with 25 years experience who was, yesterday, the General's inferior.

So they came up with "Commodore-Admiral," which lasted about a year, then just "Commodore" which didn't last much longer.

Finally, they came up with Rear Admiral (Lower Half) and Rear Admiral (Upper Half), which has made Rear Admirals the butt of many jokes since then.

[JScones]

This thread reminded me of this... http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/dump/WWII%20Rank%20Comparison%20Chart.pdf

I started it back around 2001-ish and, as you can see, haven't quite finished it yet, although the main military comparisons are there.

In my humble and obviously biased opinion, it's the best "go-to" chart there is (although I don't claim that there's no typos, lol). I might finish off the Soviet comparison this weekend (I have the data, just haven't plugged it in yet).

EDIT: I should stress that my sources are all original WWII documents from ~1942. My primary sources:
-for US information: USN Rear Admiral J.W. Bunkley's well known "Military and Naval Recognition Book" 3rd Edition 1942 and the US War Department's "Handbook on German Military Forces", 1944.
-for Kriegsmarine information: Various Kriegsamrine recruitment pamphletts
-for Commonwealth information: "Ranks and Badges in the Australian and USA Navy Army and the RAAF and Auxiliaries", 1943

No post war "memories" or revisionism. ;)

[frau kaleun]

This thread reminded me of this... http://www.users.on.net/~jscones/dump/WWII%20Rank%20Comparison%20Chart.pdf

I started it back around 2001-ish and, as you can see, haven't quite finished it yet, although the main military comparisons are there.

Oooo shiny. And printable!

And jeez, did Goering invent "Reichsmarschall" just so he could outrank every other person in the entire Wehrmacht? :O:

[JScones]

I'll try to put an updated version up over the weekend. I need to add some footnotes to explain a few things, for example, that I've used the pre-1942 USAAF ranks, only because it got a bit cluttered with adding the 1942+ ranks...I just got lazy with that. Main difference is essentially the "swapping" of Master and First Sergeant and the inclusion of five Technical ranks.

I also haven't included a unique line for CWO, as my source implies that a CWO was essentially the same as an Ensign (in rank terms). The difference being that a CWO had spent 6 years as a WO and instead of being called Ensign was called Chief whatever.

And the USN had four levels of Midshipman. I haven't added those in yet because I'm not sure if any of them align with the German, or for that matter USAAF, Officer Candidate ranks.

And lastly, I have to split the RAF AC into AC2 and AC1. I just wasn't sure 10 years ago which one aligned to Gefreiter.

[Tessa]

Where are you from? I ask because the system used in the KM is paralleled in the Royal Navy. In the sailing-ship days a gunner was considered something of a wizard, with magical abilities that separated him from real sailors; hence he was exempt from all regular sailor duties.

When steam came into common use the same thing happened. An engineer is not a real sailor, which means he is both more and less than the regular command structure. He isn't trained in anything to do with the running of the ship, and other officers aren't trained in engineering.

The reason I asked where you are from is that if you are American, none of that makes sense, because in the US navy officers aren't specialists. On my ship we had a Radio Officer; over him was a Comm officer, and over him was the XO. We also had an engineering officer, but these were all officers learning different jobs, and they all had pretty much the same career track, and barring stupid mistakes and bad luck they would all someday be an exec and then a captain.

I'm from the US, I used to work on one a naval base as a contractor in the super computer center. Have got several friends on active duyt, or a couple that have just come back from their deployments, I think a better way to define it was not specialist but career path. From your logic, someone from JAG could get a command once their reach commander/captain. Some people are just not fit to command a ship when they've spent the last 20 years in a courtroom to get their rank.

I apologize for the mixup, I see that what I wanted to say came out very wrong and not what I was trying to say. As your example, the comm officer on the ship could very well get a command someday. What I was trying to get across is that there are several careers/jobs in which you will never step foot on a boat you 20 years. Once they get their proper rank, do you think it's wise/fair then to give the keys to a ship a who is a lawyer or nuclear engineer(the ones that design the cores, not the onboard ones that monitor the one on their ship?

[Tessa]

I don't think someone at the rank would be considered senior to all the NCOs - he's on the track to be a CO, but not there yet, and thus wouldn't get "officer status" in the field. As noted upthread there's really no exact equivalent for the rank in US/UK navy terms but it seems like his position would be roughly the same as a midshipman in the US Navy. As a Fähnrich and not an Oberfähnrich he'd probably fall right where his bunk assignment indicates, among the less-senior NCOs.


My bad, they would probably best resemble a warrant officer rank until they become a leutnant.

Here's a comprehensive chart for the navy:

I apologize for the clipping on the file, the page was written in html and hard to figure out a way to get it displayed on this site. The Chief Petty Officer Row (completely missing) and bottom of the Warrant officer 1st class are clipped

To see the whole list correctly click here (http://pelsia.741.com/source.html)

http://pelsia.741.com/source.html

http://a.imageshack.us/img840/7777/comparativewwiiranksx.png
(http://pelsia.741.com/source.html)

Sorry about the ads, I don't have any easily accessible webspace around and just needed something quick.

[Sailor Steve]

I apologize for the mixup, I see that what I wanted to say came out very wrong and not what I was trying to say. As your example, the comm officer on the ship could very well get a command someday. What I was trying to get across is that there are several careers/jobs in which you will never step foot on a boat you 20 years. Once they get their proper rank, do you think it's wise/fair then to give the keys to a ship a who is a lawyer or nuclear engineer(the ones that design the cores, not the onboard ones that monitor the one on their ship?
A good point, and one that escaped me. I guess we do have our own versions of the 'technical wizards'. :sunny:

[desirableroasted]

My bad, they would probably best resemble a warrant officer rank until they become a leutnant.

Here's a comprehensive chart for the navy:

The US Navy side of this chart is wrong in the enlisted ranks. A Petty Officer First Class outranks a Petty Officer Second, and so on. A Seaman First Class outranks a Second, who outranks an Apprentice. Left out here, too, are Senior and Master Chief Petty Officers.

Otherwise, I think part of the problem here is trying to make a simple "top-to-bottom" rank chart, which is simply not possible in the US and UK navies, since midshipmen are/were sort of an intake route to officership. Midshipmen simply don't exist in that hierarchy.

If they did in the German navy ranks, at that time, of course, is another question.

[frau kaleun]

Otherwise, I think part of the problem here is trying to make a simple "top-to-bottom" rank chart, which is simply not possible in the US and UK navies, since midshipmen are/were sort of an intake route to officership. Midshipmen simply don't exist in that hierarchy.

If they did in the German navy ranks, at that time, of course, is another question.

I'm guessing the status of officer candidates in the KM was about the same. They're in a special category - not enlisted men, but not yet COs, and it sure doesn't seem like they occupied some hypothetical rung in the ladder above the former but just below the latter. Or were accorded the kind of status when serving in a crew that one might expect if that were the case.

[Draka]

Think of middies as your (very) younger brother - always underfoot, not quite coordinated enuf to actually DO anything with you and your friends, but Mommy INSISTS you let him tag along .....

Middies in all navies are strictly makee-learnee, not in any formal chain of command but strictly there to learn and get some experience. Back in the days of sailing ships, a middie in the RN might actually be given some duties and responsibilities in the smaller ships, but to my knowledge not in any Navy in the "modern" age.

[Sailor Steve]

Think of middies as your (very) younger brother - always underfoot, not quite coordinated enuf to actually DO anything with you and your friends, but Mommy INSISTS you let him tag along .....
:rotfl2:

Unfortunately we always talked about ensigns in those exact same terms.

Middies in all navies are strictly makee-learnee, not in any formal chain of command but strictly there to learn and get some experience. Back in the days of sailing ships, a middie in the RN might actually be given some duties and responsibilities in the smaller ships, but to my knowledge not in any Navy in the "modern" age.
Sounds like a description of 'Fanrich' to me. :D

[Obersteuermann]

I think the ranks of Fähnrich and Oberfähnrich are analogous (in the RAF and British Army - not so sure about the RN) to the modern day Officer Cadet.

These are trainees, enlisted and paid as private soldiers, but may understudy a regular officer until they are themselves fully commissioned. They are given the honorary title of OCdt and certain privileges like use of the officers' mess. From reading Iron Coffins by Herbert Werner, his duties aboard his first boat as a Fähnrich sounds pretty close to that ... and being the most junior, his officers dumped all their post-patrol paperwork on him the moment they reached port! :haha:

[Tessa]

The US Navy side of this chart is wrong in the enlisted ranks. A Petty Officer First Class outranks a Petty Officer Second, and so on. A Seaman First Class outranks a Second, who outranks an Apprentice. Left out here, too, are Senior and Master Chief Petty Officers.

Otherwise, I think part of the problem here is trying to make a simple "top-to-bottom" rank chart, which is simply not possible in the US and UK navies, since midshipmen are/were sort of an intake route to officership. Midshipmen simply don't exist in that hierarchy.

If they did in the German navy ranks, at that time, of course, is another question.

Good job, thanks for catching that. I'll update the html page (can be done quickly), getting the chart inside this thread will still be a bit of a challenge since the html doesn't convert cleanly to bb, otherwise would've posted it that way. Aside from having the PO's as WO's upside down in terms of their rank this' still the best comparison chart that has everything all in one place. All the decent ones I've found in the past split officer's and enlisted as two seperate charts.

[JScones]

Aside from having the PO's as WO's upside down in terms of their rank this' still the best comparison chart that has everything all in one place. All the decent ones I've found in the past split officer's and enlisted as two seperate charts.
Have you seen post #48 and #50? ;)