s class opinion

[tmdgm]

Anyone out there play with S boats? I just started an sboat campaign in the asiatic at start of war and it's a pain, really because of it's speed. In medium seas, most i can do is 10-12 knots. Most freighters i'm running into are going 10 knots (which seems 3 knots faster than in SH3 btw?)

If i'm not in the front quarter of the freighters, ferget bout it. I can't catch em.

Doesn't seem like any other subs are available to upgrade to yet when i'm in dock.

i like the boat, just too slow on surface.

[Capt. Morgan]

I like the "Sugar" boat too. I've begun every Pacific career in one.

Some Skippers may start out in an air conditioned, radar equipped, 10 tubed Gato, but they won't appreciate what a Gato is capable of nearly as much as you will appreciate a lowly Porpoise when you finally get offered one (that's usually around partol 3).


In the words of the immortal Harry Callahan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2JnCXvm_Qc), "A man's got to know his limitations", and that's what the S' is all about.

Survive in an S-Boat long enough to be offered anything better and you'll be unstoppable.

[Gerald]

Anyone out there play with S boats? I just started an sboat campaign in the asiatic at start of war and it's a pain, really because of it's speed. In medium seas, most i can do is 10-12 knots. Most freighters i'm running into are going 10 knots (which seems 3 knots faster than in SH3 btw?)

If i'm not in the front quarter of the freighters, ferget bout it. I can't catch em.

Doesn't seem like any other subs are available to upgrade to yet when i'm in dock.

i like the boat, just too slow on surface. :yep:

[pickinthebanjo]

Yeah, I like the S-class myself, you gotta respect something that outdated. Didn't they crush at 100m? I'm just going of old history channel on that, never actually had to dive one past 100m

[Rockin Robbins]

Outdated????? The S-Boat was the first submarine to be optimized for underwater performance, beating the Type XXI U-Boat by 24 years! Smaller and with less power than the later fleet boats, it was faster and quicker handling underwater.

However, not having solved the battery problem, when it was time to design a fleet boat, the designers chose to build a surface raider that could submerge when it actually had to. But the S-Boat absolutely disproves the notion that the Germans were just some kind of alien supermen who designed an absolute breakthrough in the Type XXI because of its optimization for submerged speed. Pure poppycock!

So I'll take that 9 knot surface speed with a smile! The S-Boat was almost 30 years out of date and STILL acquitted itself admirably in WWII. Build some new ones with decent ice cream machines and they would have been good for another 20 years.:woot:

[tmdgm]

I like the "Sugar" boat too. I've begun every Pacific career in one.

Some Skippers may start out in an air conditioned, radar equipped, 10 tubed Gato, but they won't appreciate what a Gato is capable of nearly as much as you will appreciate a lowly Porpoise when you finally get offered one (that's usually around partol 3).


In the words of the immortal Harry Callahan (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2JnCXvm_Qc), "A man's got to know his limitations", and that's what the S' is all about.

Survive in an S-Boat long enough to be offered anything better and you'll be unstoppable.


k, so it's 3rd patrol i can upgrade? I think i'm about ready for a porpoise.

[Rockin Robbins]

The blind chimp tosses a dart at the bonus board every time you end a cruise to see what upgrades you're offered. Don't extend your cruises by resupplying. Get home, let the chimp do his thing and you'll get your porpoise quicker.:up:

[Ducimus]

s class opinion
Leaky, pop riveted, outdated WW1 rust buckets fit only for training duty! :D

(duck's and runs :88) )

[Platapus]

Outdated????? The S-Boat was the first submarine to be optimized for underwater performance, beating the Type XXI U-Boat by 24 years! Smaller and with less power than the later fleet boats, it was faster and quicker handling underwater.

However, not having solved the battery problem, when it was time to design a fleet boat, the designers chose to build a surface raider that could submerge when it actually had to. But the S-Boat absolutely disproves the notion that the Germans were just some kind of alien supermen who designed an absolute breakthrough in the Type XXI because of its optimization for submerged speed. Pure poppycock!

So I'll take that 9 knot surface speed with a smile! The S-Boat was almost 30 years out of date and STILL acquitted itself admirably in WWII. Build some new ones with decent ice cream machines and they would have been good for another 20 years.:woot:

Wow, a bunch of stuffage I did not know about the S class boats. I feel chagrined dissing the Sugar boats. :oops:

[razark]

Leaky, pop riveted, outdated WW1 rust buckets fit only for training duty!
But that's what makes them so much fun!

[tater]

Need an interior mod for the pig boats that adds swarms of cockroaches. Everywhere.

[Rockin Robbins]

Need an interior mod for the pig boats that adds swarms of cockroaches. Everywhere.

:DTater's Cockroach Mod!

[rein1705]

Outdated????? The S-Boat was the first submarine to be optimized for underwater performance, beating the Type XXI U-Boat by 24 years! Smaller and with less power than the later fleet boats, it was faster and quicker handling underwater.

However, not having solved the battery problem, when it was time to design a fleet boat, the designers chose to build a surface raider that could submerge when it actually had to. But the S-Boat absolutely disproves the notion that the Germans were just some kind of alien supermen who designed an absolute breakthrough in the Type XXI because of its optimization for submerged speed. Pure poppycock!

So I'll take that 9 knot surface speed with a smile! The S-Boat was almost 30 years out of date and STILL acquitted itself admirably in WWII. Build some new ones with decent ice cream machines and they would have been good for another 20 years.:woot:



ABSOLUTELY CORRECT!!
Ive been in love with the pig boats ever since SH1
If you can be successful in these boats you'll never feel the same in another.

[TorpexXIII]

I love the S boats. Always start in one. It makes upgrading to a bigger boat real sweet. Mind you its fun trying to get anywhere in them fast.
I even have trouble catching up with downed pilots!! LOL

[Armistead]

Love the S boat, used it in the battle of Coral Sea. The Carriers were leaving me, but made the southern turn just in time right to me....One dead carrier.

[rein1705]

their the most challenging to play as but also that's what makes them so fun. Every kill is an accomplishment in an S-Boat and your proud of every one.


PS: btw, theirs a S-boat social group here on subsim called "The Diesel Pigs"
I havent been quite able to get it off the ground anyone's free to join us.

[Bubblehead1980]

Definitely a challenge but fun to use.I do not use the TDC when I use S boats since they didnt have them for most of their time in front line combat, makes shooting more interesting.

[Platapus]

Definitely a challenge but fun to use.I do not use the TDC when I use S boats since they didnt have them for most of their time in front line combat, makes shooting more interesting.

This being true, how do you play the S-boat and simulate not having a TDC?

Do you just set the speed on zero?

[pabbi]

Read this link (http://www.valoratsea.com/notdc.htm) , it should help.:up:

[Diopos]

Definitely a challenge but fun to use.I do not use the TDC when I use S boats since they didnt have them for most of their time in front line combat, makes shooting more interesting.

Mmmm, INTERESTING!

Anyway when I start with the Asiatic Fleet I usually start with a S-class. I always, repeat, always feel so relieved when I get a fleet boat. I don't know why I do it (I'm not an S-boat "fan" or anything). Maybe because it is the only situation where the player is, by definition, the "underdog"? :hmmm:


.

[joegrundman]

This being true, how do you play the S-boat and simulate not having a TDC?

Do you just set the speed on zero?

they had angle solvers and variable gyro torps, just not a PK. So can be simulated by using the TDC with PK off, which is how a lot of people (too many perhaps) play SH4 anyway

[joegrundman]

Outdated????? The S-Boat was the first submarine to be optimized for underwater performance, beating the Type XXI U-Boat by 24 years! Smaller and with less power than the later fleet boats, it was faster and quicker handling underwater.

However, not having solved the battery problem, when it was time to design a fleet boat, the designers chose to build a surface raider that could submerge when it actually had to. But the S-Boat absolutely disproves the notion that the Germans were just some kind of alien supermen who designed an absolute breakthrough in the Type XXI because of its optimization for submerged speed. Pure poppycock!

So I'll take that 9 knot surface speed with a smile! The S-Boat was almost 30 years out of date and STILL acquitted itself admirably in WWII. Build some new ones with decent ice cream machines and they would have been good for another 20 years.:woot:

The principles of surface and subsurface optimisation were well understood before the outbreak of world war one, and several world war one boats were designed for sub-surface optimisation, in various navies.

This was proven to be an ineffective design concept. This goes for the S-boat, in that it is not a boat that is designed to operate effectively for long periods underwater, and the attempts to do so also harmed its performance on the surface.

All other boats were designed to be divable surface cruisers for good reason, with hydrodynamic optimisation focussing on reduced drag when on the surface.

The late war german boats went back to earlier design principles of optimisation for sub-surface operations for they were the first boats designed completely to operate underwater at all times, therefore not requiring efficient performance on the surface.

[kylesplanet]

Here is a question I have wondered. Did the S-Boat crews and Fleetboat crews interchange or did they stick with one or the other? The reason I ask is they were very different animals. I've read several books and don't remember anyone addressing this. :hmmm:

[razark]

Here is a question I have wondered. Did the S-Boat crews and Fleetboat crews interchange or did they stick with one or the other? The reason I ask is they were very different animals. I've read several books and don't remember anyone addressing this. :hmmm:
I'd imagine there was some interchange going on, at least from S-Boats to fleetboats. As the S-Boats were replaced, the crews would have moved on to fleetboats. If I recall correctly, the S-Boats were also used as training boats for new sailors, as well.

[Rockin Robbins]

The principles of surface and subsurface optimisation were well understood before the outbreak of world war one, and several world war one boats were designed for sub-surface optimisation, in various navies.

This was proven to be an ineffective design concept. This goes for the S-boat, in that it is not a boat that is designed to operate effectively for long periods underwater, and the attempts to do so also harmed its performance on the surface.

All other boats were designed to be divable surface cruisers for good reason, with hydrodynamic optimisation focussing on reduced drag when on the surface.

The late war german boats went back to earlier design principles of optimisation for sub-surface operations for they were the first boats designed completely to operate underwater at all times, therefore not requiring efficient performance on the surface.
Correction. The first boats to be designed to operate underwater at all times were the US nuclear boats. Operating on snorkel cannot be called submerged operation. However there is some justification that it made an underwater optimized design more feasible. There are many who claim that the underwater optimization was the revolutionary breakthrough of the Type XXI. As you have said, it was not, as the principles were already well understood by all.

Snorkel operation is just as affected by surface conditions as operating with the entire boat up on the surface, as it is kinda important that it suck air instead of hydrogen dioxide. In addition the boat was not well hidden on snorkel, as it was a large and prominent radar reflector having no value to keeping the submarine hidden. Our hunter killer groups learned that early on and used it to great advantage when hunting the few U-Boats that were so equipped. The snorkel's effect, then, was to blind the submarine crew, giving them a false sense of security. Advantage Allies.

[rein1705]

This is totally unrelated except in the since it has to do with an S-boat in SH4... There I was...
surrounded by 3 type B freighters...:hmmm:
(as i had sunk the lead ship with my last 3 torpedos)
So i has the boys surface there in the big middle of em and unleash havoc with our 4-50 gun lolz:yeah:
Completely shocked, and by golly they had to of bin awed, the poor bastards (all 3) ran right into eachother...:doh:
I wish i had taken a screen shot...:nope:
So...
we were right in the middle of a wall of steel, my lil piggy and her tiny gun, and we really let them have it!:up:
I blew up two and really hurt the other before diving under one to get out of the trap I was in...
and here come two sub chasers steaming right for us at top speed.... :oeep....
exept.... they proceeded to turn tail and run away!:D
:rotfl2:
Mebby they thought i was a whole wolf pack.... or.... pig pack lmao.

[kiwi_2005]

Yea the S boats look cool as well, being on the bridge I move the camera to the centre and just up a bit so the point of the boat is dead ahead in front I can see more of the v shape of the bow, gives that realism of being on deck for me even better when in rough seas. :)

[rein1705]

Yea the S boats look cool as well, being on the bridge I move the camera to the centre and just up a bit so the point of the boat is dead ahead in front I can see more of the v shape of the bow, gives that realism of being on deck for me even better when in rough seas. :)

Ive nearly come all the way out of the water before at 8 knots:o
Those guys must have had strong stomachs and.... helmets on lol

[LukeFF]

The whole thing about the S boat's submerged speed is that by the time the US entered the war, most of the boats could only make 9-9.5 knots submerged, which was about the same as a fleet boat. Time was not kind to the S class. Frankly, sailors hated serving on these things. Almost every patrol reported noted that the living conditions were poor. If it wasn't the moldy mattresses from all the condensation inside the boat, it was the freezing cold temperatures endured on Alaskan patrols. If it wasn't that, it was the unbearably hot conditions in the South Pacific. If all that didn't get to you, you still had to worry about the batteries exploding due to (again) all that condensation.

All told, an S boat sailor's best day was the day he was transferred off the boat.

[Hitman]

The S-Boat was the first submarine to be optimized for underwater performance, beating the Type XXI U-Boat by 24 years! Smaller and with less power than the later fleet boats, it was faster and quicker handling underwater.


Actually, by WW1 most navies had submarines optimized for underwater performance while not -as you correctly state- for constant underwater operation. Most early submarine designs, including WW1 ones are clearly fish inspired, even with finns, because there was still not a good understanding of underwater dynamics and of the best shape to be used.

In fact, the innovative part of german design in WW1 was to give precedence to submarines as commerce raiders and improve their surfaced sea-keeping abilities with the double hull, reaching the u-cruiser concept as peak, and leaving the underwater performance as something secondary.

[Rockin Robbins]

And that was absolutely the correct decision for all diesel-electric boats. Anything that encouraged skippers to stay submerged for one second longer than they were forced to hurt the submarine's ability to survive and find targets.

An underwater optimized boat would have encouraged the ostriches to run submerged all the time, destroying their situational awareness and leaving them sitting ducks which were unable to develop targets. Especially with plane-borne radar, snorkels were large, conspicuous targets. The operators of the submarine were secure in their own ignorance, while the searching planes had no problem finding and destroying their willfully unaware target.

That is one good reason why the Type XXI would have made no difference to the outcome of the Battle of the Atlantic. For diesel-electric submarines to be successful there must be areas where your forces control the surface of the sea or the air above it. At a bare minimum you must be able to hinder the activities of those who search for you.

A quarterback in American football has no possibility of success unless his offensive line protects him long enough to hand the ball off, pass it or run himself. The German navy had no offensive line. So long as the U-Boat was tethered to the surface in any way it could not succeed, for the enemy could hunt it at his leisure and without prospect of harassment.