Former SH5 Producer Alexandru Gris talks about Software-Quality

[Seeadler]

Former SH5 Producer "Alexandru Gris" writes on his blog about Software-Quality: ;)

Software-Quality (1) (http://blog.alexandrugris.ro/2010/08/software-quality-1.html)
Software-Quality (2) (http://blog.alexandrugris.ro/2010/08/software-quality-2.html)
Software-Quality (3) (http://blog.alexandrugris.ro/2010/08/software-quality-3.html)

[CCIP]

Very thoughtful posts, but it does make me wonder what the underlying conclusion about his own experience with SH5 is. I mean, it's pretty darn clear that somewhere along the lines, despite both experience and good thinking by the developers, something went very wrong with the project. The quality level we'd expect (especially given his obvious understanding of the notion of software quality) just didn't come together. So what did go wrong and why? Hmm :hmmm:

[Seeadler]

Very thoughtful posts, but it does make me wonder what the underlying conclusion about his own experience with SH5 is.
Perhaps these findings are the summary/results of the project.
For SH5 they come unfortunately too late.:shifty:

[CCIP]

Yeah. I get the impression that on the development side, the problem could basically be summed up as feature creep at the expense of core focus and quality. Underlying that is the conflicting demands for both new in-depth 'die hard' features and features that appealed to a broader market. The development got too ambitious and started going in too many directions at once, losing focus and sacrificing quality when deadlines started pushing. It's a trap that many game projects, and not just in simulations, have fallen victim to, and I guess for SH5 that's most unfortunate...

[Madox58]

One can have a standard they believe in.
Be it Software, Construction, or what have you.
If one works for someone else who signs the pay checks?
You do what you are told and damned your ideals unless you go elsewhere.

If higher ups demanded release of SH5 as it was released?
What could any of the Dev's have done?
Find a new job?
(Which would not have stopped release)

If jobs for them were that easy to come by I'm pretty sure they would have moved on.

We all sell our souls for the all mighty dollar at times.
And right now?
Times are tougher then in the past few years.
I know this for a fact being self employed in the Construction business.

I had to layoff all my Guys and desolve my business.
:nope:
I now work for someone else until things pick up.
I don't agree with him all the time on somethings.
But he writes my check so I do what he wants.

[skookum]

An important point: (I paraphrase) Self discipline exercised by all members of the project is necessary for quality.

This concept goes beyond software development. It's the foundation of all consistently successful ventures undertaken by humanity. If we are committed not only to the goal as a concept, but also to honing the necessary skills and mental sharpness to actually realize it, then the results speak for themselves. Teams that either don't understand the importance of, or are to lazy to pursue self discipline are doomed to achieve mediocrity at best.

[Zedi]

This is when young people without any serious practical background are assigned to big projects. They are good in theory and speeches, but mediocre in the practical field. The end result: SH5.

What is going on in the SH5 moding section is not moding by any means, but a serious repair shop where people spend a lot of their lifetime working free to try fixing a game that was sold on the international market as a finished product. Every [REL] start with "this a fix for... ". Is just 2 bad that we don't have a lawyer among us, so he can sum up all these critical errors in the code and game design and sue Ubi. I seriously hope this was last time when Ubi makes a sim, as it was last time when I bought one of their products.

[janh]

Yeah. I get the impression that on the development side, the problem could basically be summed up as feature creep at the expense of core focus and quality. Underlying that is the conflicting demands for both new in-depth 'die hard' features and features that appealed to a broader market. The development got too ambitious and started going in too many directions at once, losing focus and sacrificing quality when deadlines started pushing. It's a trap that many game projects, and not just in simulations, have fallen victim to, and I guess for SH5 that's most unfortunate...


Yes, I recall Elenaiba hinted in a post towards that direction.

But it is probably a very difficult balance to strike between ambitiousness, novelty, and focus on old core game concepts. If you focus too much on getting the "old core" right, and update basically only a very few features like the outward appearance, then you basically only recreated an old game, and will likely not sell a lot (unless the predecessor is 20 years old).

If you become too ambitious and try to go well beyond the previous technological stage, you run the risks mentioned above. You'll need a lot of standing power and investment to pull ambitious projects off, and a lot of time (I get the impression Oleg just pulls that off with the new BoB).

If I compare games in the past 3-5 years to most typical games in the 90s, like TF1942, Silent Hunter 2, Gunship 2000, Pacific War, etc., then I find that many games roughly starting with the generation Falcon 4.0/Flashpoint/Silent Hunter II have evolved into such complex simulations, that topping that is hard. Especially if companies like Ubi decide on a strategy with more frequent releases of a franchise.

If less frequent, you could sell a new "Silent Hunter" (III) just with updated new flashy graphics maybe every 7 years. And even that will be hard since I find graphics sort of have converged, I can hardly see the tiny different between SHIV and SHV, nor would I care in a simulation about minuscule eye-candy differences. But coming up with new features and functionality at a higher frequency in such complex games like the SH series, War in the Pacific (AE) or anything close to that level, is going to be more and more investment and time intensive. I suppose we are up for some stagnation with hard-core simulations and "superdetailed" games in particular, since there seems to be a discrepancy: obviously it will be hard to get a pay back with a small customer ship but high release frequency for high investment costs.

I think SHV was one of victims of Ubi's new strategy. High release frequency, and limiting time and investment with such an ambitious project cannot go along very well -- and being less ambitious doesn't move it very far either, and will with the 5th title in a series (yawn...) not gain you too many new sales.

[Arclight]

From what I gather from the posts, feature creep was more of a symptom. The real problem was losing track of actual quality; they believed they had a higher quality than they did. So they started building on this (believed) stable core, only to find out at the end the quality was lacking.

Imho at that point they should have decided to delay the release, but that didn't happen. :hmmm:

[janh]

Slightly off topic, but along the lines of the above, and kind of reminiscent of the SHV drama. Almost funny to see such a repeat by a different company.

Just out of curiosity I read a review article about the new Mafia II. Off genre, but obviously the tenor could have been "copied" from SHV. Lack of features and functionality, linearity of story, poor physics simulation and purely optical damage model for cars, incomplete character development and empty cities,... sounds like another overly ambitious project that matches the above discussion.
Now it is no longer surprising that they did not widely distribute the game for previews before release... Which per se is already a huge stop sign.

I get the impression that the games, to evolve much further without only touching up the graphics (and pretty alone appears to be insufficient to make people happy), will in the future need much more time and resources. To make that happen, companies need to either accept reduced margins (and if you look in Ubi's last three or four yearly sales reports, there is a lot of earning that might better be turned into game development funds rather than dividends...), or increase the price. I assume most of us would be willing to pay 30-50% more, if, but only if, the quality and novelty criteria are truly met.

[Arclight]

No need to increase the price, they just need to stop spending so much time in making it pretty and instead nail down content and gameplay first.


... Yeah, wishfull thinking. If it ain't pretty, it can't compete. :-?

Happens more and more often too; Stardock has a little controversy on their hands as well at the moment:
Stardock In “Unfinished” Game Drama (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/25/stardock-rescind-own-bill-of-rights/)
Wardell On “Unfinished” Controversy (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/26/wardell-on-unfinished-controversy/)

[janh]

No need to increase the price, they just need to stop spending so much time in making it pretty and instead nail down content and gameplay first.

... Yeah, wishfull thinking. If it ain't pretty, it can't compete. :-?

Happens more and more often too; Stardock has a little controversy on their hands as well at the moment:
Stardock In “Unfinished” Game Drama (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/25/stardock-rescind-own-bill-of-rights/)
Wardell On “Unfinished” Controversy (http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2010/08/26/wardell-on-unfinished-controversy/)


You speak from my heart. I won't buy a game just for graphics improvements, unless it's "predecessor" is clearly several generations older. Gaming is much more "mental" to me than "optical". Pretty, yes, a game can be, but it needn't. First of all it needs to be detailed, accurate (physically, historically etc), well modeled and executed, and offer many option/decisions to explore and test historical and alternative outcomes.

[TDK1044]

I think the problem with SH5 is that the publisher allocated insufficient development time, and compounded the issue by making a business decision to give the game more of an 'arcade' feel to enhance the visuals for the casual gamers they hoped to attract.

Therefore, what we got was an unfinished, buggy mess that angered many subsimmers and was of little interest to the casual gamers.

[Seeadler]

I think the problem with SH5 is that the publisher allocated insufficient development time
According to Alexandru's CV, first year of SH5 development was March 2007 - Dec 2008

[BigBANGtheory]

I liked his footnote on page 1:
** Management of expectations and of communities is more important than ever in the days of the Internet.

How many developers and publishers still fall foul of this?

[Jimbuna]

I think the problem with SH5 is that the publisher allocated insufficient development time, and compounded the issue by making a business decision to give the game more of an 'arcade' feel to enhance the visuals for the casual gamers they hoped to attract.

Therefore, what we got was an unfinished, buggy mess that angered many subsimmers and was of little interest to the casual gamers.


I more or less agree with what your saying because I certainly don't blame the development team.

He who pays the piper calls the tune.

[Zedi]

I fail to understand why some of you separate the devs from.. "publishers". They said that the blame is on the company, not teams and we should not separate them. So I do, I blame Ubi and everybody involved in the project. And the devs side had their huge part of quilt. Just take a look at the moding forum and see how many glitches and bad scripting is found in the code day by day.. is that also the "publisher" fault? At least the script part is a mess.. old code from SH3 badly rewritten for SH5 and sold as a new one.

I'm sure they are some nice individuals, is fun to stay with them at a table and have some beers... but we are not talking here about the person, but the professional who got in charge to make a job right and he failed. Simple as that.

[Arclight]

Yeah... kinda. :hmmm:

I dunno, do you blame the company for making a shoddy product or the worker that assembles it? In the end, it's management that sets out the rules and guidelines and provides the tools and work-environment.

The guy at the bottom of the corporate foodchain is just doing his job. :-?
You speak from my heart. I won't buy a game just for graphics improvements, unless it's "predecessor" is clearly several generations older. Gaming is much more "mental" to me than "optical". Pretty, yes, a game can be, but it needn't. First of all it needs to be detailed, accurate (physically, historically etc), well modeled and executed, and offer many option/decisions to explore and test historical and alternative outcomes.
Unfortunetly the majority doesn't think that way. With the advent of this whole "HD-gaming" thing, the focus shifted to graphics. Games need to look good in order to compete; most wouldn't buy something that looks outdated.

The whole thing is a joke anyway. PCs have been running well beyond "HD" for a long time. Even a fairly basic CRT monitor could do 1600x1200 at 75Hz or more.

[TDK1044]

I fail to understand why some of you separate the devs from.. "publishers". They said that the blame is on the company, not teams and we should not separate them. So I do, I blame Ubi and everybody involved in the project. And the devs side had their huge part of quilt. Just take a look at the moding forum and see how many glitches and bad scripting is found in the code day by day.. is that also the "publisher" fault? At least the script part is a mess.. old code from SH3 badly rewritten for SH5 and sold as a new one.

I'm sure they are some nice individuals, is fun to stay with them at a table and have some beers... but we are not talking here about the person, but the professional who got in charge to make a job right and he failed. Simple as that.

I understand your point, Magnum, but it's the Publisher that allocates a 12 month development budget for a 24 month project and therefore forces a Development Team to cut corners in order to deliver the game on time. It's the Publisher that prevents any real Beta Testing from trust worthy outside sources.....like subsim.

Imagine how much better this game could have been if Neal had been allowed to offer six members here real Beta access to the game.

Instead, Ubisoft goes to extraordinary lengths to protect a game that few people are now interested in, because in addition to the fact that it's a buggy mess, the end user is also expected to attempt to access Ubisoft servers in order to play it.

[mookiemookie]

Imagine how much better this game could have been if Neal had been allowed to offer six members here real Beta access to the game.


They tried that with one of the SH4 patches. Some idiot leaked it, so that will never ever happen again.

[Takeda Shingen]

They tried that with one of the SH4 patches. Some idiot leaked it, so that will never ever happen again.

Yes. That event caused considerable damage to the relationship between the publisher/developers and the gaming community. This is a major reason why SH5 was developed in a great deal of secrecy.

[FIREWALL]

Something I'd like to add as food for thought to this excellent discussion is.

How many of you in the future will PreOrder a game from Ubisoft or another publisher ?

Will you wait for better reviews after game is released ?

Wait for a playable Demo ?

[janh]

Yes, Elanaiba asked for the functions of developer and publisher not to be separated, and if, to speak of Ubi as unity. But of course both a separate functions, and managment won't really start programming and developer won't get into strategic market development. But after all, blaming anyone doesn't solve problems.


Unfortunetly the majority doesn't think that way. With the advent of this whole "HD-gaming" thing, the focus shifted to graphics. Games need to look good in order to compete; most wouldn't buy something that looks outdated.

Right. This trend has saved me many bucks in the past 5-8 years. Since graphics quality has become sufficient for me and changes rather little, I can wait a year or two after release of a title to get it from the bargain bin. It will still look shiny and new to me, as far as I care. I mostly pick titles with great depth and modding capabilities such as ARMA2, SHIII, or WITP, which keep me tied down for many years. This gives a lot of staying power to wait until new titles are well reviewed, patched properly (into the state that they should have had on release) and I can gather from the internet that core features have really been enhanced.

[janh]

I liked his footnote on page 1:
** Management of expectations and of communities is more important than ever in the days of the Internet.

How many developers and publishers still fall foul of this?

This really still reads weird to me. Does it mean that companies believe that should have people that "tell customers what they ought to desire and what their wishes and expectation should be"? Technically, I would think they should have a good public-relations staff that communicates with fans and customers -- both ways. News and infos on lasted developments to the public, and talking to fans to gather wishes, improvement suggestions, trends in the communities etc that should influence forthcoming developments.

[Shiplord]

How many of you in the future will PreOrder a game from Ubisoft or another publisher ?
I never preorder games!
Here in my hometown, I can rent almost any new PC or console game in a video store (except the new DRM Ubisoft games and others that requires a mandatory user account ;) ) for a day or two. This gives me a very good insight on a game which I intend to buy.

[FIREWALL]

I never preorder games!
Here in my hometown, I can rent almost any new PC or console game in a video store (except the new DRM Ubisoft games and others that requires a mandatory user account ;) ) for a day or two. This gives me a very good insight on a game which I intend to buy.

The other 98% of us only can dream of renting a PC game.:DL

But as you post that leaves out the DRM games.

If consoles in the future can have the graphics and speed of a hi-end Gameing PC I, see it as the way to go as far as gameing goes.

[Frumpkis]

Just out of curiosity I read a review article about the new Mafia II. Off genre, but obviously the tenor could have been "copied" from SHV. Lack of features and functionality, linearity of story, poor physics simulation and purely optical damage model for cars, incomplete character development and empty cities,... sounds like another overly ambitious project that matches the above discussion.
Now it is no longer surprising that they did not widely distribute the game for previews before release... Which per se is already a huge stop sign.


I don't see that level of similarity between Mafia II (which I'm playing at the moment) and the SH5 release. There are a few people who are upset at the way MFII looks superficially like it should be a sandbox-style game, and it doesn't actually play that way. If you approach it on its own level -- as a linear plot RPG/shooter in an interesting environment -- then it's fun (IMO). My only complaint is that it's a little too heavy on the driving as filler between action sequences. MFII is currently at 79 critic/8.0 user rating on Metacritic, compared to SH5's rather dismal 62/2.3 rating. So it's not exactly being panned everywhere.

Two really important differences between MFII and SH5 are 1) I'm playing version 1.0 and I have seen no bugs so far, and 2) there was a demo available. A demo is a sign of confidence by a game company. Imagine how the whole SH5 drama would have played out, if Ubi had released a demo that revealed the shape the game was in.

[Frumpkis]

How many of you in the future will PreOrder a game from Ubisoft or another publisher ?

Will you wait for better reviews after game is released ?

Wait for a playable Demo ?

I used to pre-order certain boxed games, to reduce the shipping delay as much as possible. But now that I buy most games on Steam, it's not really necessary to pre-order. I can have any Steam game on my hard drive in a couple hours, so it's easier to hold off a day or two and read initial user reviews. Online distribution and user reviews have helped me dodge a few bullets with games I was initially excited about, like Elemental: War of Magic (and boy, am I glad I waited on that one, based on early reports!).

Aside from that, certain developers have earned a "buy it early" or "wait and see" approach, based on past performance. I'll buy just about anything Bioware makes very early (next in line: Dragon Age 2 and Mass Effect 3) because their recent games have been very solid (if not perfect) on day one. I'm very interested in the upcoming Shogun 2 from CA, but I've learned to wait at least six months on anything in the Total War series. Same thing for Ubi and the Silent Hunter series.... and I'm still waiting. ;)

[JScones]

I understand your point, Magnum, but it's the Publisher that allocates a 12 month development budget for a 24 month project and therefore forces a Development Team to cut corners in order to deliver the game on time.
An experienced project manager can be quite adept at balancing the project triangle - schedule, cost and scope - without the quality component suffering as much as SH5's has (look at practically any other PC game, including Ubisoft titles, as examples). Keep in mind the PM would have been given the fixed end date up front, as part of Ubisoft's approval to commence the game. Perhaps I'm a more risk adverse PM (perhaps more experienced), but if given just over one year to develop a new game, I would be very closely looking at the risks of introducing such new functionality as FPS view, especially if my risk mitigation strategy is to use SH3/SH4 code or exclude wolfpacks or effective AI. Resorting to "cutting corners" is simply sloppy management (at all levels). As I said, project triangle; the PM's job, not the game publisher's.

At the least, it seems to me that many quality issues with SH5 could be put down to poor communication at the management level. This is a fundamental problem with projects; it's seen as being much easier to "hide" issues or re-baseline schedule, cost, scope or quality than raise the issues with the project steering committee. PMs tend to see the latter approach as a sign of failure on their behalf, however, as I tell my PMs, the latter will reflect much better on them in the long run than the former: a good PM can deliver a project, an even better PM knows when to pull the noose.

Imagine how much better this game could have been if Neal had been allowed to offer six members here real Beta access to the game.
They did that with SH4...did it make a substantial difference to the quality of the final product? I mean, a difference that justified both the cost and the risk of some goose releasing the game early?

[Gilbou]

They should work incrementally.

For SH6, take SH5 as base.
Then, make a list of the 5 or 10 news things you want developed.
A new feature only goes in the game if finished and working properly.

Do your work. Release date comes.
Of the 10 items, 7 are ready. Ship the game as SH6 with the 7 items
inside. Let developpers finish what they can for the first patch.

They work on the first patch, and are able to finish 2 items. Others
would require too much work. Release first patch that adds 2 items,
so the game has 9 of 10 items. Push the last one for SH7.

Work on bugs only, forget about the missing item now. Fix as
many bugs as you can. Put out a second patch.

When working on SH7, do the same. Keep 1/2 persons working
on bugs on SH6 because bugs fixed in SH6 automatically get fixed
on SH7 too.. So it's not lost work force.

People from open source projects do that all the time. Ex. NetBSD,
they only ship on the next release what is finished and working,
and push for another release what will require too much time.

They should try to release often too. Which means releasing one
version of the game every 2 years for example. You cannot finish
all the features you want to add, but at least only ship those
that are finished and working.

Working incrementally, you get something that : always gets
better and better, you never have to redo everything already done,
and especially : you don't see features that players like disappear
from one release to another...

If you do that, people will buy each versino every year or 2 years,
it slowly goes up in power and content. The manual is the same
thing. Write a manual. Improve it. Release after release.

They could do it right. But why would they ? They have a nice
group of sheep-alike people that buy unfinished games, for which
you just put out 1 or 2 patches, and the game is ridden with
bugs, is unplayable because of server, connection problems and
you still get away with profits.

You get what you deserve. And SH5 as it is, is exactly what you
deserved.

[Ducimus]

They should work incrementally.

For SH6, take SH5 as base.
Then, make a list of the 5 or 10 news things you want developed.


SH6? :har: Anyway, If they used SH5 as a base, then they should go back and fix fundamental flaws in the game engine they should have fixed before using SH4 as a base for SH5. This problem will only be compounded when using SH5 as a base and adding more features to an already flawed foundation. Not doing so is shear idiocy IMO.

[TDK1044]

They did that with SH4...did it make a substantial difference to the quality of the final product? I mean, a difference that justified both the cost and the risk of some goose releasing the game early?

Silent Hunter 4 was not Beta Tested in the true sense of the word....at least not by anyone at subsim. I was one of the Beta Testers on SH4, and we were not working with a full Beta version of the game. It felt like a very early version of the game. The Beta Testers were involved way too late in the process to have any impact, and I can think of 4 issues that I flagged that were still issues when the game was released.

In all fairness, 3 of the 4 issues were addressed in later patches, but on another game I Beta Tested for another publisher, we were involved much earlier and with a real Beta version. That game was much healthier at release. :)

[JScones]

In all fairness, 3 of the 4 issues were addressed in later patches, but on another game I Beta Tested for another publisher, we were involved much earlier and with a real Beta version. That game was much healthier at release. :)
Was that Settlers 7? I know they released a public beta prior to release. I'd be keen to know from anyone involved whether that made a positive difference to the final product?

[Takeda Shingen]

SH6? :har: Anyway, If they used SH5 as a base, then they should go back and fix fundamental flaws in the game engine they should have fixed before using SH4 as a base for SH5. This problem will only be compounded when using SH5 as a base and adding more features to an already flawed foundation. Not doing so is shear idiocy IMO.

I know it has been said to death, but I completely agree that we have seen the last of the Silent Hunter series. :cry:

[TDK1044]

Was that Settlers 7? I know they released a public beta prior to release. I'd be keen to know from anyone involved whether that made a positive difference to the final product?

No, Sir. :)

[FIREWALL]

I know it has been said to death, but I completely agree that we have seen the last of the Silent Hunter series. :cry:


At least from Ubisoft. :dead: But a different Title from a different Publisher. :hmmm:

[Ducimus]

At least from Ubisoft. :dead: But a different Title from a different Publisher. :hmmm:


Yeah? Who? :88)

[JScones]

Well, if the devs are as serious about the genre as those who have met Dan would have us believe (more than we could ever imagine, I believe it's been said they live and breathe it), and completely blameless insofar as its release state, then why don't Alex, Dan and the 50-odd SH5 devs break away from Ubisoft, form their own independent company and find another publisher more sympathetic to their cause (maybe 1C perhaps)?

I mean, many people here are quick to claim that the devs would have given much more if only the evil oppressors let them, so here's the perfect chance to match actions to words. :up:

Unless...

[elanaiba]

At the least, it seems to me that many quality issues with SH5 could be put down to poor communication at the management level. This is a fundamental problem with projects; it's seen as being much easier to "hide" issues or re-baseline schedule, cost, scope or quality than raise the issues with the project steering committee. PMs tend to see the latter approach as a sign of failure on their behalf, however, as I tell my PMs, the latter will reflect much better on them in the long run than the former: a good PM can deliver a project, an even better PM knows when to pull the noose.


I can relate to that.

[elanaiba]

Well, if the devs are as serious about the genre as those who have met Dan would have us believe (more than we could ever imagine, I believe it's been said they live and breathe it), and completely blameless insofar as its release state, then why don't Alex, Dan and the 50-odd SH5 devs break away from Ubisoft, form their own independent company and find another publisher more sympathetic to their cause (maybe 1C perhaps)?

I mean, many people here are quick to claim that the devs would have given much more if only the evil oppressors let them, so here's the perfect chance to match actions to words. :up:

Unless...

Its easy to be mean, but you know very well its not that simple. And to be honest, maybe for some of us enough is enough.

Blameless we are not, and I've said it before. In the grand scheme of things I'm probably the one who should be blamed a lot, simply because at my level of experience i should have been able to influence things to go the right way and prevent some of the mistakes from happening.

I personally find little to blame in the publisher/ubi suits.

Of course, I know very well - I was there - that many mistakes were not mine, but a team is a team. In the end we propose a product to you and it represents us all. Short schedule, instable code, inexperienced programmers, that doesn't really matter to the end buyer.

Its our responsibility what we put on the market with our name on it.

[janh]

Well said Elanaiba. Probably splitting off as a separate company holds great rewards, but also great risks. Under cover of Ubisoft, you can still get through with a bad seller or two, but on your own, any risks become "much riskier".

Hmmh, I think after SHIII and SHIV, the Silent Hunter Series was at a turning point. And the general decision, whoever made it, to go for mass market and casual gamer audience just appears not to work with this type of game. It may never have been the hard-core "game" (simulation, whatever) like Falcon 4, Jane's Longbow or so, but I don't think that any of those games feature topics that are enticing to a general audience. My impression is that kiddies just go for quick fun action with shallow learning curves these days, and are scared off by something that might relate to closely to reality, and where you could even learn something.

Have you ever considered doing the exact opposite, and focus on the actually "tiny" customer ship of this genre by going into the premium market? Say SH(x) would cost a good $80 from now on, and that would allow you to spent 4-5 years working on any sequel so it really comes out polished, bug-free and with really new content -- that content and those improvements, that your customer ship was really asking for. This will not get you any casual gamer that just looks for a quick game on a Saturday afternoon, but I am quite confident it would have worked with the people in this community. Maybe that is something to think about?

[JU_88]

Yeah? Who? :88)

EA? :woot:

[JScones]

Dan, I think you might have misunderstood the intent of my comment. :hmmm: My comment was meant to sound silly and illogical, to highlight the silliness of "I've met Dan, he's great and loves subsims, so the devs are not to blame" comments that are posted here by the same few every so often (thus my reference to "those who have met Dan would have us believe" and "people here are quick to claim" rather than direct reference to you guys). Of course we, and other objective people, know such comments are rubbish and too simplistic. Just like you guys leaving and forming your own company. Some of us understand that there are more important things in life than subsims, such as a stable income for providing for family and so on.

And that was the point I was trying to make. ;)

But thank you for your comments. You have my utmost respect for your open acknowledgement of your contribution to the product (which you first made months ago), even though I'm sure others here will continue to stick to their "it's all the suits' fault" mantra...

[JU_88]

Dan, I think you might have misunderstood the intent of my comment. :hmmm: My comment was meant to sound silly and illogical, to highlight the silliness of "I've met Dan, he's great and loves subsims, so the devs are not to blame" comments that are posted here by the same few every so often. Of course we, and other objective people, know such comments are rubbish and too simplistic. Just like you guys leaving and forming your own company.

And that was the point I was trying to make. ;)

But thank you for your comments. You have my utmost respect for your open acknowledgement of your contribution to the product, even though I'm sure others here will still stick to their "it's all the suits' fault" mantra...

I agree that the 'suits' that everyone blames are possibly something of a mythical entity.

But why is it 'silly' to say 'he is a great guy and love subsims'?
Regardless of the outcome of SH5 and his own accountablilties and flaws - that statment needn't be rubbish on its own merrit.

Here is another angle on this matter:
Every time some one praises Dan or defends him, you seem pop up to brand them as a fanboy etc.
Surley you can understand that by repeatedly doing this, it makes you look no less opinionated?

You keep refering to yourself as 'objective' but in your seemlingly persistant quest to tackle the extremists, are you sure that you yourself have not wound up as one at the other end of spectrum??

Because that is how it is starting to look.

[JScones]

It's not silly to say he's a great guy who loves subsims. I've no doubt that's 100% true. It's drawing the blind conclusion that because he's a great guy socially, who enjoys a drink or whatnot, that therefore anything wrong with SH5 professionally can't possibly be his or the devs' fault (heck, Dan is but one of at least 50 people involved with SH5).

See the difference? ;)

That's what is silly. Not at all what one thinks of Dan as a guy to have a drink with.

Look at it this way - you might think I'm a jerk...does that mean JSGME or SH3Cmdr sucks? If you said "I've met JScones and I think he's a jerk" then fine. If you then added "so JSGME and SH3Cmdr must be rubbish", there's the silliness (or fallacy, to be more exact).

It you look at my posts, this is what I comment against, not what anyone thinks of Dan as a person.

[JU_88]

It's not silly to say he's a great guy who loves subsims. I've no doubt that's 100% true. It's drawing the blind conclusion that because he's a great guy socially, who enjoys a drink or whatnot, that therefore anything wrong with SH5 professionally can't possibly be his or the devs' fault.

See the difference? ;)

That's what is silly. Not at all what one thinks of Dan as a guy to have a drink with.

Look at it this way - you might think I'm a jerk...does that mean JSGME or SH3Cmdr sucks? If you said "I've met JScones and I think he's a jerk" then fine. If you then added "so JSGME and SH3Cmdr must be rubbish", there's the silliness (or fallacy, to be more exact).

It you look at my posts, this is what I comment against, not what anyone thinks of Dan as a person.

^Thats fair enough mate^
I dont think your a jerk - I was really talking about perception rather than the actual facts of the matter.

[JScones]

Yeah, I understand. It's just that no-one has ever posted "SH5 sucks so Dan must be a jerk to know socially" (or if they have they've been buried well before I've noticed them). That would draw the exact same response from me, FWIW.

I work on logic. Fallacies and non sequiturs irritate me no end.

[Lord Justice]

you seem pop up to brand them as a fanboy etc.
On occasion, it has been observed. :yep:

[Placoderm]

Yeah? Who? :88)

To me, in a dream world...it would be Oleg Mattox/1C.

They seem to do very good off-mainstream titles that capture both the feel and the intricacies of operating whatever they model. So far they have done very well at obscure aircraft (most would say that a "Sturmnovik" simulation would be too 'niche' to sell to a wide audience), WWII tanks, and 3D strategy. Their experience with each of the above would bode well for a quality submarine simulation (although admittedly they would likely concentrate on something again obscure...like russian subs in the baltic sea)...but who knows?


:salute:

[makman94]

......

Its our responsibility what we put on the market with our name on it.

sure it is your responsibility Dan BUT you are not doing anything about it...

[JU_88]

sure it is your responsibility Dan BUT you are not doing anything about it...

Nope because he and his team have been assigned to other projects by managment (not nessicarily 'suits' it could be someone in jeans and Tshirt you know ;-) )
Considering how many boycotted the game over U-play, it is not surprising.
Not that im placing the blame with the consumer. Ubi should have done a bit more research before chaining its consumers to a server.

I guess an AAA title like AC2 wasn't hit so hard with PS3 and Xbox 360 versions availiable.
But for pc only niche market SH5 - suicide.

[elanaiba]

sure it is your responsibility Dan BUT you are not doing anything about it...

You have no idea what I have done or not. But in the end, you are right in that results matter and from that point of view, we might as well have done nothing...

[Takeda Shingen]

You have no idea what I have done or not. But in the end, you are right in that results matter and from that point of view, we might as well have done nothing...

I disagree with that. Thank you for what you have done.

[mookiemookie]

You have no idea what I have done or not. But in the end, you are right in that results matter and from that point of view, we might as well have done nothing...

There are those of us that sincerely appreciate your efforts.

[Lord Justice]

There are those of us that sincerely appreciate your efforts.Here here, and I shall do the pleasure of :salute: and may the appreciation be carried on. :yeah:

[makman94]

You have no idea what I have done or not. But in the end, you are right in that results matter and from that point of view, we might as well have done nothing...

i am judging the result Dan ! i don't care about the background 'stories' or the intentions that may all of you had ....
yes, it 'carries' your names and becuase of that the treatment must have been way more than this....how can we call this ? (i don't even dare to give it a describe...)
and what do you do after the release (leave outside the fact that this must have never been released at this state but you SELL IT AS FINISHED).....nothing ! two patches ...that their purpose was ONLY TO FIGHT the pirates and NOT to correct things !

stadimeter WAS NOT FIXED TO NEITHER BOTH PATCHES ! although this community mentioned from the start this bug ...you simply don't care ...you don't pay attention to us at all !! and if i am wrong at this...then ,please ,tell us why stadi was not fixed to neither both patches.and,on the other hand, you leave so long time now the TDW 'fighting' with your faults to correct some things...WHY?? (...and stadi is just an example...)

TDW(and not only) is spending his free time Dan for your 'baby' ! why you(and your team) don't spend some of your free time to give some fixes ? the 'picture' that you (and your team) is showing outside(at least to my eyes) is that you don't care at all !!but you keep telling at your posts that you all cares enough and words...words...words . give us some facts Dan !

Dan,judging the result i know that is cruel sometimes but in this case there is no way to 'cover' the whole thing . graphics is only the 'clothes' for the body (and the last to been taken care). under these nice clothes...we have a body that is 'suffering' not only by the bugs but becuase it is nothing new ! (SUB SIMULATOR gameplay fuctionalities).

becuase i don't congratulate you, this doesn't mean that i am your 'enemy' or i don't respect you or your efforts.but how can i congratulate you for something unfinished and so ''fast made'' job?? i am saying this becuase some people here are 'running' to congratulate you just to make the others -like me- showing as the 'bad guys'.the truth is that i really like the sub SIMULATORS and i will be the first that will congratulate you when you give us something really good...and the last sh Dan was NOT good...not good at all !sorry ,but this is my truth ....waiting your next...'strike' !

[Lord Justice]

You advance briskly!! :shifty: This will, if i mistake not, create some noise. Roll on to your glory... if to be had. :zzz: Good day.

[Zedi]

...
and what do you do after the release (leave outside the fact that this must have never been released at this state but you SELL IT AS FINISHED).....nothing ! two patches ...that their purpose was ONLY TO FIGHT the pirates and NOT to correct things !

stadimeter WAS NOT FIXED TO NEITHER BOTH PATCHES ! although this community mentioned from the start this bug ...you simply don't care ...you don't pay attention to us at all !! and if i am wrong at this...then ,please ,tell us why stadi was not fixed to neither both patches.and,on the other hand, you leave so long time now the TDW 'fighting' with your faults to correct some things...WHY?? (...and stadi is just an example...)

TDW(and not only) is spending his free time Dan for your 'baby' ! why you(and your team) don't spend some of your free time to give some fixes ? the 'picture' that you (and your team) is showing outside(at least to my eyes) is that you don't care at all !!


Agree 120% and is not only the stadimeter, but the rec manual and many other things. It's a shame that modders works really hard and spend a LOT of their lifetime to fix the game for free, without any official support or apreciation.

The only ones who performed at max quality in the dev team were the artists. But I have the feeling that they were the team who worked on AC2.. is a huge quality difference between the graphic and code part in SH5. That why the graphics is the only part moded for now, the script part is still fixed day by day.

[Méo]

I personally find little to blame in the publisher/ubi suits.
i am judging the result Dan ! i don't care about the background 'stories' or the intentions that may all of you had ....

We could argue for months to come on who to blame, but it's gonna be useless & endless.

As far as I'm concerned, there's only one thing that really matters now: Ubisoft should listen and ''comply'' to modders requests.

But I guess it's gonna take another 6 months ...if ever. :hmmm:

[McBeck]

i am judging the result Dan ! i don't care about the background 'stories' or the intentions that may all of you had ....
yes, it 'carries' your names and becuase of that the treatment must have been way more than this....how can we call this ? (i don't even dare to give it a describe...)
and what do you do after the release (leave outside the fact that this must have never been released at this state but you SELL IT AS FINISHED).....nothing ! two patches ...that their purpose was ONLY TO FIGHT the pirates and NOT to correct things !

stadimeter WAS NOT FIXED TO NEITHER BOTH PATCHES ! although this community mentioned from the start this bug ...you simply don't care ...you don't pay attention to us at all !! and if i am wrong at this...then ,please ,tell us why stadi was not fixed to neither both patches.and,on the other hand, you leave so long time now the TDW 'fighting' with your faults to correct some things...WHY?? (...and stadi is just an example...)

TDW(and not only) is spending his free time Dan for your 'baby' ! why you(and your team) don't spend some of your free time to give some fixes ? the 'picture' that you (and your team) is showing outside(at least to my eyes) is that you don't care at all !!but you keep telling at your posts that you all cares enough and words...words...words . give us some facts Dan !

Dan,judging the result i know that is cruel sometimes but in this case there is no way to 'cover' the whole thing . graphics is only the 'clothes' for the body (and the last to been taken care). under these nice clothes...we have a body that is 'suffering' not only by the bugs but becuase it is nothing new ! (SUB SIMULATOR gameplay fuctionalities).

becuase i don't congratulate you, this doesn't mean that i am your 'enemy' or i don't respect you or your efforts.but how can i congratulate you for something unfinished and so ''fast made'' job?? i am saying this becuase some people here are 'running' to congratulate you just to make the others -like me- showing as the 'bad guys'.the truth is that i really like the sub SIMULATORS and i will be the first that will congratulate you when you give us something really good...and the last sh Dan was NOT good...not good at all !sorry ,but this is my truth ....waiting your next...'strike' !You cant just ignore what happens behind the scenes when you judge a person.

I think you should consider that getting the fixes in place that you mention (which are very valid) is outside the influence of Dan. Can it be the case that Dan have already pointed out these errors? Do you honestly think that its Dans choice to use DRM? The devs have used a lot of their spare time in the mods forums to help out - what does that tell you? Could it be that they care about the game? Could it be that its not their choice when to release a game and make the decision when its ready for release? The list goes on...

I think it takes a lot of guts to come here and be a part of these discussions and to admit to their part in the state of the game.

[McBeck]

We could argue for months to come on who to blame, but it's gonna be useless & endless.
Completely agree

[JU_88]

We could argue for months to come on who to blame, but it's gonna be useless & endless.

Also agree whats done is done, shouting and pointing the finger wont get us anywhere.

@Makman94
Im not going to demonise you or call you a 'bad guy' In fact i can understand your frustration and you are just speaking your mind.

But I personally dont agree with your approach, You tell Dan and his team that: 'if they really care, then they will work on the game in their free time' (like TDW or a mod team)
But a mod team works on somthing because, A) they have time, B) they really want to because they enjoy it.
Sure for the team its a bit different because its actually 'their' game, but its also 'their' life and 'their' time.

Putting time and energy into modding is not just about where or not you care, there are other factors to consider. For instance we dont know what the devs have going on in there personal lives? and its none of our damn business either.

On top of that I agree with Mbeck, you cant ignore what has been attempted behind the scenes, it is unfair to judge without knowing the full story.

So In my eyes your expectations are not very reasonable and your... 'emotional blackmail' if you wil -l is not the best way to convince someone to do something out of goodwill either.

maybe for some of us enough is enough.
Hardly suprising, when you consider he has been working on the SH franchise for the past 8 years of his life.

[Arclight]

You cant just ignore what happens behind the scenes when you judge a person.

I think you should consider that getting the fixes in place that you mention (which are very valid) is outside the influence of Dan. Can it be the case that Dan have already pointed out these errors? Do you honestly think that its Dans choice to use DRM? The devs have used a lot of their spare time in the mods forums to help out - what does that tell you? Could it be that they care about the game? Could it be that its not their choice when to release a game and make the decision when its ready for release? The list goes on...

I think it takes a lot of guts to come here and be a part of these discussions and to admit to their part in the state of the game.
Don't know why it still has to be said, but this. Exactly this.

It's like blaming the delivery guy for a burned pizza. :shifty:

[Zedi]

Don't know why it still has to be said, but this. Exactly this.

It's like blaming the delivery guy for a burned pizza. :shifty:
Nobody blame him for anything, is just a reply on his post. There is no namecalling as is the whole team/company fault, not individuals. Dan sometimes likes to speak in the name of the whole team.. not sure why... so ofc he gets the hits. Similar to Sorlim who got all the hate, even he had nothing to do with the developement.. but it was enough to be a Ubi employee :P

[makman94]

You cant just ignore what happens behind the scenes when you judge a person.-----i didn't judge ANYONE ! i judge only the final product which is ,in this case, the sh5 .i am pointing my words to Dan becuase it happens to be the leader manager of sh5 . i have nothing to say for the personality of Dan becuase i ,also like you, believe that Dan is a great guy !

I think you should consider that getting the fixes in place that you mention (which are very valid) is outside the influence of Dan.----are they? Can it be the case that Dan have already pointed out these errors?----do you believe that Dan asked these things to be corrected and it didn't happened? Do you honestly think that its Dans choice to use DRM?----never said anything about drm.i ,personally, don't believe that this is a sh5's problem at all ! The devs have used a lot of their spare time in the mods forums to help out - what does that tell you? Could it be that they care about the game?----no ,it doesn't show that they care...giving SOME 'tips' here and there (basically through pms?-i don't know) is not solving problems.and why ...if this is their job?for me, 'care' means to give me solutions ...polished ...solutions. Could it be that its not their choice when to release a game and make the decision when its ready for release?----sure it is not their choice but still the final product has their sign on ! and where is your sign....there is your responsibility.
The list goes on...

I think it takes a lot of guts to come here and be a part of these discussions and to admit to their part in the state of the game.----yes ,it takes... guts to admit things but what is after this? ok ,we admited our faults.... what's then ? ...nothing? wouldn't be more fair ,for the people that paid for it , to start correcting the admited faults?

look above at blue letters

[makman94]

Also agree whats done is done, shouting and pointing the finger wont get us anywhere.

@Makman94
Im not going to demonise you or call you a 'bad guy' In fact i can understand your frustration and you are just speaking your mind.

But I personally dont agree with your approach, You tell Dan and his team that: 'if they really care, then they will work on the game in their free time' (like TDW or a mod team)
But a mod team works on somthing because, A) they have time, B) they really want to because they enjoy it.
Sure for the team its a bit different because its actually 'their' game, but its also 'their' life and 'their' time.

Putting time and energy into modding is not just about where or not you care, there are other factors to consider. For instance we dont know what the devs have going on in there personal lives? and its none of our damn business either.

On top of that I agree with Mbeck, you cant ignore what has been attempted behind the scenes, it is unfair to judge without knowing the full story.

So In my eyes your expectations are not very reasonable and your... 'emotional blackmail' if you wil -l is not the best way to convince someone to do something out of goodwill either.


Hardly suprising, when you consider he has been working on the SH franchise for the past 8 years of his life.

sorry JU ,but you got me all wrong ! i meant that if they really cared for sh5 ,as they are saying, then would have spent SOME of their free time to correct some things (although, i believe , that they HAVE and MUST correct ALL issues ).if you care for something ...you do something for it...

i know that free time is a BIG 'sacrifice' and all moders knows that very well ! (you ..too) . but ,i also, believe(or want to believe...) that devs LIKES what they are doing so giving some time of their free time is an indication that this game is not 'left' ONLY at the free time of moders...it is called ''here we are...you ....go ahead and here we are too '' or...something like that !

[Arclight]

Nobody blame him for anything, is just a reply on his post. There is no namecalling as is the whole team/company fault, not individuals. Dan sometimes likes to speak in the name of the whole team.. not sure why... so ofc he gets the hits. Similar to Sorlim who got all the hate, even he had nothing to do with the developement.. but it was enough to be a Ubi employee :P
Did you really read the post you "agree 120%" with? Seems to me Dan is being targeted specifically.

At any rate, my biggest problem with the topic is that it's not Dan that decided to assign his team to some other project. That there are no patches in the works at the moment is not his or his team's fault.

And he wouldn't bother adressing these things or try to help if he didn't care.

[John Channing]

sorry JU ,but you got me all wrong ! i meant that if they really cared for sh5 ,as they are saying, then would have spent SOME of their free time to correct some things (although, i believe , that they HAVE and MUST correct ALL issues ).if you care for something ...you do something for it...

i know that free time is a BIG 'sacrifice' and all moders knows that very well ! (you ..too) . but ,i also, believe(or want to believe...) that devs LIKES what they are doing so giving some time of their free time is an indication that this game is not 'left' ONLY at the free time of moders...it is called ''here we are...you ....go ahead and here we are too '' or...something like that !

Are you under the impression that Dan is a programmer?

JCC

[makman94]

Are you under the impression that Dan is a programmer?

JCC

i think that he is the project manager . he is the one that says the final 'ok' .that is what i believe ....but if i am wrong at this then ,again, someone else would be at this post.so ,my message goes to him

[makman94]

.... Seems to me Dan is being targeted specifically.
.....

no, you are wrong at this Arclight ! Dan is not 'targeted' at all !

[Arclight]

Held responsible then? :06:

[John Channing]

i think that he is the project manager . he is the one that says the final 'ok' .that is what i believe ....but if i am wrong at this then ,again, someone else would be at this post.so ,my message goes to him

- Putting aside what you believe and trying to deal in what you know...

As a Project Manager whose team has been re-assigned to other projects what would you have him do in his "free time"?


JCC

[Sonarman]

Perhaps we should invite comment from Alexandru upon whose blog this thread was originated, it is he I believe & not Dan who was Producer/Project manager and with him, I think rests the ultimate responsibility for Silent Hunter 5. Don't get me wrong I do not want to single anyone out and totally agree with Dan when he says it was a team effort, it would just be enlightening to know the forces that conspired to deliver the product in the state that it was delivered.

For me the real question though is not "who is to blame?" but "where do we go from here?"

[janh]

This discussion is going quite far now... and at the same time it is actually leading nowhere.

Searching for faults isn't going to make a difference here. We are not talking about finding someone responsible for grounding an aircraft carrier here, SHV is but a game. Either it is a good one, or it ain't. You either bought it, or left it alone.

Now it turns out that it isn't exactly the advancement from SHIII that most fans hoped for, and it has some quality problems, that maybe even exceeded those of its predecessors. But few others really like it.
So complaining about it to a certain degree should be completely legit. As if you had bought a crappy book or movie. You can criticize it, rip it apart, and warn any of your friends and family not to try it. In the end you have to just accept that you just wasted some of your money. But you won't start to accuse the author or producer and ask him to start fixing the storyline!?? And that in his leisure time???

It is just a game! From one company out of many that makes simulations, and one out of many that has attempted to cover this topic, or that will ever tackle it. Sure, the SH series has brought a few highlights for it's time, as Silent Service I or Aces of the Deep were highlights of their periods. But there will be other games from the same or other companies that may be as good or even far greater -- for sure.

[Barso]

I agree totally, it's just a game.
I play it for what it is and I enjoy SH 3 and 4 just as much if not more. The people to blame for the state of SH5 are the people above Dan. I don't believe Dan would have released the game in the state it was personally because making games is a business and if the figures aren't matching the time it takes to develop then sacrifices are made.
Maybe Dan was to ambitious with the games features but I don't think that's something he should be criticised on.
I suppose he has to push the franchise on as it's to easy to just copy and paste with slightly better graphics.
I do hope a final fix everything patch does come, not for me but for the modders but I doubt it.
It's a pity GWX4 didn't get finished.

[Lord Justice]

Jahn, your post is spot on sir, Good peformance. However let me deduct from said pleasing words, to remind you, although you put it well, and in line of my thoughts toward the matter, I am affraid this wont yield the complaints. Thank you.

[robbo180265]

Jahn, your post is spot on sir, Good peformance. However let me deduct from said pleasing words, to remind you, although you put it well, and in line of my thoughts toward the matter, I am affraid this wont yield the complaints. Thank you.


You are right 4Para I don't think all the complaining will go away completely and in some instances (lack of customer support etc) I don't think it should.

However singling out one member of the team (it would appear to me to be the only member of that team to have the balls to post here despite the whining and gnashing of teeth)and more or less ordering them back to work on SH5 is IMO completely out of order and I'm glad that there is a stack of members here highlighting that fact, a stack that I'd like to add myself to.

[Sonarman]

Whilst Silent Hunter is I agree "only a game", the disappointment/anger many of us feel I think, largely stems from the fact that for those of us who focus primarily on first person naval sim titles Silent Hunter literally is now "the only game in town" and that Silent Hunter 5 may indeed have put paid to the series leaves us with very little to look forward to in gaming terms. Lets hope when all is said and done SH5 still generates enough sales for a continuation, the devs & the series deserve another chance.

[makman94]

ok guys, maybe you are all right and i get it wrong

...nothing can be done so...i say ,too,this is it !

i will just 'transfer' my 'hopes' or expectetions to sh6 then(i am sure that it will be sh6).

sorry for 'bothering' the dev team (but still a reply from Dan at my questions would be interesting ...don't you think so?)

[elanaiba]

Just for the matter of not assuming myself a greater position than i have, I never rose higher than lead designer for Silent Hunter. So no project management for me thank you very much:

SH3 - Tiberius Astianax Lazar lead designer; Tudor Serban and Dan Dimitrescu as game designers
SH4 - Dan Dimitrescu and Tudor Serban co-lead designers
SH5 - really this was a a team design effort but with same design leads as SH4

So, I'm not a programmer. I'm also not the only one that reads this forum, I just happen to be the guy that sometimes posts here. Long story, and don't assume that because only I regularly post, others are not helping the modders.

Sometimes I am just the connection between a modder and a dev member that doesn't have a subsim account.

Dan, enjoying a beer in rainy Vienna. Vacation, yay!

[elanaiba]

i am judging the result Dan ! i don't care about the background 'stories' or the intentions that may all of you had ....
yes, it 'carries' your names and becuase of that the treatment must have been way more than this....how can we call this ? (i don't even dare to give it a describe...)
and what do you do after the release (leave outside the fact that this must have never been released at this state but you SELL IT AS FINISHED).....nothing ! two patches ...that their purpose was ONLY TO FIGHT the pirates and NOT to correct things !
(...)

The purpose of the patches was not to fight pirates but indeed to correct bugs!

Other than that, re-read the stuff I quoted above - and re-read my post. I'm saying the SAME thing .... i agree with you.

[Lord Justice]

"The para", orders two batterys of 12 pounders to be immediately erected, on the far away bank. Watches with intrest. :o

[Barso]

Console market "not supporting full range of products," says Ubisoft

The home console market is no longer supporting alternative products for big publishers, leaving only blockbuster titles to break the top ten and become profitable.

That’s according to Ubisoft Euro MD Alain Corre, who told GamesIndustry.biz that it’s safer to invest in one AAA title rather than hedge bets on a handful of smaller productions.

"The games that are not triple-A are not profitable anymore," said Corre in an interview published today. "And that’s changed in the last 18 months.

"When you have a triple-A blockbuster it costs more money to develop, but at the end of the day there’s also the chance of a good return on it because there’s a concentration at the top of the charts. To a certain extent it becomes less risky to invest more in a single game or franchise than spreading your investment between three or four games. Because if those three or four games are not at the right quality level, you are sure to lose money," said Corre.

"So the business model has changed and we’re changing our way of making hardcore games. With hardcore games that we’re not sure are reaching the right level, we stop work on them. And that’s why we concentrate more on key franchises, because that’s what the market wants - something new with huge quality production behind it. The market is not supporting the full range of product that it used to anymore."

Although the French publisher has brought new IP to market successfully this generation with Assassin’s Creed, Corre said that upcoming strategy game RUSE might be the last new franchise from Ubisoft until a new generation of home consoles, as establishing new brands is proving too expensive.

"It is more difficult now. To launch a new IP you have to invest much, much more marketing to establish it, and if you add up the huge costs of development plus the investment in marketing you cannot be 100 per cent sure the target audience you’d expect, which is needed for the comeback on the investment.

"Especially in this part of the cycle of the consoles, we are cautious now to introduce new brands. We’ll concentrate on the ones we have and make sure we bring them to the next level in terms of quality."

The full interview with Alain Corre, where he also discusses his view on monetising console multiplayer, can be read here.

[Nisgeis]

"The para", orders two batterys of 12 pounders to be immediately erected, on the far away bank. Watches with intrest. :o

The para is referring to himself in the third person? Surely a sign that The Para has detached himself from his long standing mock style to a new ridiculous pretenous mock style. How cringewrothy ye can be me hearties avast no we can not say. Where be the real 4Para for the real 4Para would cut down, nay, slice in two this faux Para bast. Bye your leaf.

[Lord Justice]

The para is referring to himself in the third person? Surely a sign that The Para has detached himself from his long standing mock style to a new ridiculous pretenous mock style. How cringewrothy ye can be me hearties avast no we can not say. Where be the real 4Para for the real 4Para would cut down, nay, slice in two this faux Para bast. Bye your leaf.Duty and Principle sir, make me an enemy. Therefor one sometimes disgards the uniform, I am drunk sir and mark me, well as I intend to do damage, my mind is so unequal at the moment, one must relax, observe the battle pass. :salute:

[Nisgeis]

Duty and Principle sir, make me an enemy. Therefor one sometimes disgards the uniform, I am drunk sir and mark me, well as I intend to do damage, my mind is so unequal at the moment, one must relax, observe the battle pass. :salute:

Well thank God you got over that pathetic mock pirate stage very quickly. You'd be REALLY boring if you started talking a) normally, or b) in a faux pirate voice (again). Whatever it is you don't say you are better off not saying it with your usual style. My God, you'd be boring if you ever tried to make a serious point.

Long live the ridiculous you!

[Lord Justice]

You wish a brandy? Rather you asked 1st! it appears you are following me with petty gallantry, perhaps I should sober up, and if you insist to press on my goodness,:yep: make no doubt i shall send you a thunderous response from a fixed spot.

[janh]

Console market "not supporting full range of products," says Ubisoft

Thanks Barso, informative post. Where and when was this stated?
Sounds like SH this is quite relevant to what may happen with the SH franchise, and perhaps also to what happened during the SHV development.

---

In other things: My post wasn't meant to judge people that feel the need to complain in a objective manner. That is a fair right (but also gets at time tedious to read the same things again and again). But I can only underline what others posted before me: Pointing fingers is not doing any good, nor justice. The fact that Dan/Elanaiba still hangs around here speaks for his dedication to the series. And he is even honest about the whole situation, something you really can't expect to happen often.

[Nisgeis]

You wish a brandy? Rather you asked 1st! it appears you are following me with petty gallantry, perhaps I should sober up, and if you insist to press on my goodness,:yep: make no doubt i shall send you a thunderous response from a fixed spot.

That's more like it! Now you're getting back into the spirit of it. You came in drunk and forgot to post in that stupid style, we all understand, we've all been there. Now it's been pointed out that you forgot and posted like a pirate you can get back on track.

Just make a mental note in future though that when you are drunk you forget to post in the usual style and accidentally post like a pirate and accidentally use modern grammar and spelling. So next time you're drunk, just make an extra special effort to post in your ridiculous manner, then we won't have to call you Percy Pirate.

There's no harm done, but just remember what your style is and make sure you always post 'in character' because my word, it would be dull if you tried to post a serious post, or God forbid in that horrible faux piratey way again (*cringe*).

Now you're back on track and you sir have regained your way, have at ye in the word department. Bestest yourself on the field of glorious words, for the enemy of the pirate-word is within you when the brandy is high and the self control is low as ye have said yeself and lest ye forget the naffiness of the piratey nature withen ye, ye have to strive against ye internal naff pirateness to regain your true stride in your posting.

So put up a post it on your monitor 'I must get in character when posting drunk' (afix ye a warning by way of the frame of yer cabin window to grapple with the demons within released by the brandy) to your monitor.

[mookiemookie]

Thanks Barso, informative post. Where and when was this stated?
Sounds like SH this is quite relevant to what may happen with the SH franchise, and perhaps also to what happened during the SHV development.

Indeed, and also why they didn't authorize as many patches as the game needed. To them, it was throwing good money after bad.

[Barso]

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2010-08-31-console-market-not-supporting-full-range-of-products-says-ubisoft

[JU_88]

Console market "not supporting full range of products," says Ubisoft

The home console market is no longer supporting alternative products for big publishers, leaving only blockbuster titles to break the top ten and become profitable.

That’s according to Ubisoft Euro MD Alain Corre, who told GamesIndustry.biz that it’s safer to invest in one AAA title rather than hedge bets on a handful of smaller productions.

"The games that are not triple-A are not profitable anymore," said Corre in an interview published today. "And that’s changed in the last 18 months.

"When you have a triple-A blockbuster it costs more money to develop, but at the end of the day there’s also the chance of a good return on it because there’s a concentration at the top of the charts. To a certain extent it becomes less risky to invest more in a single game or franchise than spreading your investment between three or four games. Because if those three or four games are not at the right quality level, you are sure to lose money," said Corre.

"So the business model has changed and we’re changing our way of making hardcore games. With hardcore games that we’re not sure are reaching the right level, we stop work on them. And that’s why we concentrate more on key franchises, because that’s what the market wants - something new with huge quality production behind it. The market is not supporting the full range of product that it used to anymore."

Although the French publisher has brought new IP to market successfully this generation with Assassin’s Creed, Corre said that upcoming strategy game RUSE might be the last new franchise from Ubisoft until a new generation of home consoles, as establishing new brands is proving too expensive.

"It is more difficult now. To launch a new IP you have to invest much, much more marketing to establish it, and if you add up the huge costs of development plus the investment in marketing you cannot be 100 per cent sure the target audience you’d expect, which is needed for the comeback on the investment.

"Especially in this part of the cycle of the consoles, we are cautious now to introduce new brands. We’ll concentrate on the ones we have and make sure we bring them to the next level in terms of quality."

The full interview with Alain Corre, where he also discusses his view on monetising console multiplayer, can be read here.


A very depressing outlook for the games industry if there ever was one.

Basically means - From now on we (ubi) will only invest in AAA titles in already well established franchises that require almost no marketing.

Roll on Splinter Cell 12, Assasin's Creed 8, Far Cry 6, etc etc.

Bon-voyage Silent Hunter!

[Barso]

Indeed my friend.
I think it's safe to say the silent hunter series under ubisoft is now dead.

[Lord Justice]

4para is unhuman, he posts in many styles, the word bender is good, he has the character of a troublesome fool, forgive his good manners and conduct, he never complains, or whinges, he never attacks individuals personally, he is unusual, therefore unworthy, not perfect, not serious enough, not taking the bait. clearly you are the better man Nisgeis :salute: I shall stand down. well done may i applaud you. :oops:

[armin]

For me silent hunter 5 is dead. Only true silent hunter for me is III+gwx. I play silent hunter 4 only from time to time. If someone would use ships and stuff from silent hunter III i would be all game. Its sad ubisoft screwed sh5 big time. only thanks to dedicated sh modders is the franchise still alive.

[Barso]

That's why it would be great if we saw a GWX4.
If only the modders could abandon SH5 and bring SH4 up to par with GWX3.

[Will-Rommel]

Lol, it almost looks like i'm the only one here who followed up the exchange between Nisgeis and 4Para.

It's totally off topic, but god did i laughed ! :har:

[longam]

That's why it would be great if we saw a GWX4.
If only the modders could abandon SH5 and bring SH4 up to par with GWX3.

So what your saying is SH3 sucked before GWX?

[Barso]

That's just twisting my words.
I never knew SH3 before GWX.
But I do enjoy it more that SH5 stock.

[longam]

That's just twisting my words.


Not really, because I knew SH3 before from stock, and also SH4. Its just a repeat of what we know and I believe with the advanced GUI of SH5 we will have a remarkable subsim simulator with SH5 when it is all done.

[Barso]

But I don't understand what will be all done.
Surely the modders need another patch to fix more of the bugs.
Do they not?

[longam]

But I don't understand what will be all done.
Surely the modders need another patch to fix more of the bugs.
Do they not?

One of the things the Devs introduced with this new release was a scripting method replacing the common text files. I don't understand it totally, but you can see the results with the TDW mods.

[Ducimus]

Bon-voyage Silent Hunter!

Personally, I thought that's been pretty obvious the last few months, and why earlier, i laughed when someone mentioned a "SH6".

[McBeck]

You cant just ignore what happens behind the scenes when you judge a person.-----i didn't judge ANYONE ! i judge only the final product which is ,in this case, the sh5 .i am pointing my words to Dan becuase it happens to be the leader manager of sh5 . i have nothing to say for the personality of Dan becuase i ,also like you, believe that Dan is a great guy !
Dan was NOT the producer or Project Manager, so you are really barking up the wrong tree here and that is my point.

I think you should consider that getting the fixes in place that you mention (which are very valid) is outside the influence of Dan.----are they?
YES. These things are not decided by team members, but management.

Can it be the case that Dan have already pointed out these errors?----do you believe that Dan asked these things to be corrected and it didn't happened?
Yes, that I believe, but thats just my guess.

Do you honestly think that its Dans choice to use DRM?----never said anything about drm.i ,personally, don't believe that this is a sh5's problem at all !
DRM is an example of what could have been pointed out by Dan as a member of team - thats how these things usually works.

The devs have used a lot of their spare time in the mods forums to help out - what does that tell you? Could it be that they care about the game?----no ,it doesn't show that they care...giving SOME 'tips' here and there (basically through pms?-i don't know) is not solving problems.and why ...if this is their job?for me, 'care' means to give me solutions ...polished ...solutions.
If they didnt care, they wouldnt have spent their free time in the mods forum. That they did - activly through posts etc, shows clearly that they DO care.

Could it be that its not their choice when to release a game and make the decision when its ready for release?----sure it is not their choice but still the final product has their sign on ! and where is your sign....there is your responsibility.
The responsebility end with the Project manager and producer. Do you really expect a programmer or game designer to have ANY direct influence?


The list goes on...
I think it takes a lot of guts to come here and be a part of these discussions and to admit to their part in the state of the game.----yes ,it takes... guts to admit things but what is after this? ok ,we admited our faults.... what's then ? ...nothing? wouldn't be more fair ,for the people that paid for it , to start correcting the admited faults?
To be able to correct, you first need the owner of the game (Ubisoft management) to accept your scope, budget and plans - a dev team, cant do anything without the management acceptI have working more than 5 years in a big IT company and know a great deal about how things like this works.
If the people who makes the decisions are not with you - you cant do anything...

My advice to you - meant in the best possible way - is to check you facts and logic. I know you are frustrated, but be carefull where you point your fingers...

[jwilliams]

The Dev team made the game, but do not own it.

I'm guessing it would be illegal for them to moddify the game code (the .exe, the hard coded part that modders cant fix) with out the say so from Ubi? :06:

[McBeck]

The Dev team made the game, but do not own it.

I'm guessing it would be illegal for them to moddify the game code (the .exe, the hard coded part that modders cant fix) with out the say so from Ubi? :06:That would be my guess too...

[JU_88]

That's why it would be great if we saw a GWX4.
If only the modders could abandon SH5 and bring SH4 up to par with GWX3.

That makes no sense at all,
For starters, SH5 is a technically superior platform.
Then SH4 is a PTO theatre sim, so to make it an ATO sim you need to start from the ground up:

1) import all the Uboats and interiors,
2) ALL the ATO units
3) Import or re-script the entire 39 - 45 campaign over the atlantic, med, north, baltic, arctic and carribean seas!

And thats just the bare minimum!
This is partly why we never saw GWX4, because to do it properly, it was five times the work that SH3 platform required.

Now at with least SH5 you already got solid foundations for a U-boat sim already in place.
The type VII is already there, so it needs the other boats, plus the scripted campaign for 43-45 and handful of new AI units, (especially merchants and late war aircraft types)

The latter is much, MUCH less work.
So IMHO, going back to SH4 would be a giant step backwards for ATO modders.

[Alex]

The latter is much, MUCH less work.
So IMHO, going back to SH4 would be a giant step backwards for ATO modders.
+1 !

[JScones]

Perhaps we should invite comment from Alexandru upon whose blog this thread was originated, it is he I believe & not Dan who was Producer/Project manager and with him, I think rests the ultimate responsibility for Silent Hunter 5.
Correct. I'm not sure why some people continue to comment as if Dan was the PM, despite it being no secret who the PM was and that Dan was the Lead Designer (heck, just look at the name of this thread and read the article!).

Just ignorance I guess. But funny nonetheless when they try to be condescending to someone else for posting wrong information and they do the same themselves. Priceless. :haha:

Anyway, with the FACTS, it's clear that it's unfair to level criticism against Dan around the project management aspects of SH5. For that, the subject of this thread is the man. Unfortunately it's those who keep spreading the false information that leads to people continuing to blame Dan for the state of SH5. ;)

EDIT: Just noticed Dan's clarification around his role in SH5. Hopefully that puts the issue to bed once and for all. :yeah:

So complaining about it to a certain degree should be completely legit.
Not just legit, human nature. Denying people from doing so just shows ignorance of basic human behaviour.

For some people I don't think it would be melodramatic to suggest that they are following the Kübler-Ross model to a T. Some have just moved through it faster than others.

[RobP]

Interesting article.

What it does make clear is that money always corrupts software projects - usually detrimentally unless there is lots of it.

The problem stems from two issues:
1. It is generally acknowledged that the best way to produce high quality software these days is to do it iteratively. The only problem with iterative proceses is that the end date moves(!) This is one concept a lot of commercial people just don't get.

The reason for this is that unlike the requirements for building a bridge, software requirements are a lot more volatile. It is this volatility that needs to be managed and contained - but even when managed properly end dates tend to move!

Why?

Estimates - our point number 2.

All estimates are just that - estimates. They are not predictions! However, many commercial people lack a fundamental understanding of this and indeed go on to enshrine these estimates as fixed project end dates in stone.

At the beginning of a software project it has been proven that many initial estimates are as far out as +-40%!!!!

In iterative development you keep reestimating throughout the project lifecycle to continually refine your estimates - again many commercial people don't get this.

So, the first big problem with most commercial projects is that you are running against milestones that could be +-40% out (in most surveys projects were underestimated) - however, the publisher doesn't care - you signed a contract - they want X delivered on date Y or else!!!

Stacked odds? Now consider the other problem...

Development Lead to Project manager - we estimate that this game is estimated to take 2 years with a team of 10. Project Manager to Development Lead - you got to be kidding right? - Take 6 months off it and I will consider the plan.

Said manager then goes off to sell his modified and much more attractive package to the publishers.... (This is hypothetical btw - I'm not saying this happend in SH5's case... :D)

The above is pretty normal practice. The only way out of this is to work stupendiously long hours or cut quality/features. Many software houses are famous for the former. They lure 'green' students in with the 'coolness' of games development then screw them. I have never worked in the commercial games industry, but I know people that did and to be honest, they are completely taken advantage of and ripped off.

Some software houses/publishers are so rich, they can adopt iterative development and deliver only when they feel the game is ready. These games are invariably high quality or vapourware(!) If the former they normally sell for bucket loads and make the publishers extremely rich.

When this happens, other publishers see the publisher's success and try to emulate it but aren't willing to spend the same kind of money. So a good game is invariably followed by many poor clones. These clones do make money, but not on the scale of the original software.

I sometimes wish that games publishers knew a little less about bean counting and a little more about games development and games in general - but alas....

[Sailor Steve]

That makes no sense at all,
For starters, SH5 is a technically superior platform.
True.

Then SH4 is a PTO theatre sim, so to make it an ATO sim you need to start from the ground up:
False. SH4 is based directly on SH3's platform, with improvements, and ATO has already been done for it. All it needs is the little things, mods that have been done for SH3 and just need to be adapted.

1) import all the Uboats and interiors,
Have you played Op Monsun? Already done.

2) ALL the ATO units
Op Monsun. Already done.

3) Import or re-script the entire 39 - 45 campaign over the atlantic, med, north, baltic, arctic and carribean seas!
Op Monsun. Already done.

And thats just the bare minimum!
This is partly why we never saw GWX4, because to do it properly, it was five times the work that SH3 platform required.
Totally wrong. All of that was in the works for GWX4, and a whole lot more. The only reasons you didn't see it were the ones given in the 'GWX Retirement' thread.

Now at with least SH5 you already got solid foundations for a U-boat sim already in place.
As you do with SH4-UBM, which is very much more complete and adaptable.

The type VII is already there, so it needs the other boats, plus the scripted campaign for 43-45 and handful of new AI units, (especially merchants and late war aircraft types)
And given the problems people are having making those happen, SH4 is actually the much better alternative for adaptation.

The latter is much, MUCH less work.
So IMHO, going back to SH4 would be a giant step backwards for ATO modders.
Actually SH5 is turning out to be much MORE work. Everything still missing from SH4 could be adapted without much trouble at all. SH5 is proving very resilient to adaptation.

The truth is I agree with you that SH5 is the much more advanced platform, and I believe that is the direction of the future. I just wanted to point out that every single thing you said about SH4 was wrong.

[Kapitanleutnant]

1) import all the Uboats and interiors,
2) ALL the ATO units
3) Import or re-script the entire 39 - 45 campaign over the atlantic, med, north, baltic, arctic and carribean seas!

LOL. I love how you cite these as specifric problems with SH4, when SH5 has only one U-boat class (The VII series), a very limited selection of merchant ships and a campaign that got amputated around May 1943.

[Ducimus]

To be fair Steve, he does have a bit of a point. I hadn't thought about it before, but what' he's citing is the same reason I wouldn't bother importing a Gato into SH3. Only in reverse. So If I were in his shoe's, id be saying the exact same thing.

That said, while it is a bad situation (making a full on ATO mod in SH4), it's not as bad as he suggests, BUT it is ALOT of work. SH5 being the magnificantly polished turd that it is, has actually left me wanting someone (or some people) to make another Uboat mod for SH4, but there are no takers. Lurker, by himself, carried that torch for some time, and his work has gone largely unappreciated by uboat fans on subsim IMO. The majority of uboat fans don't even acknowledge SH4's existance.

[JU_88]

Ok Steve - So Ive not played OP Monsun sorry! and maybe Ducimus is right and I need to take a look at Lurker's work.
But to be honest mate, I was talking about Stock SH4 compared to Stock SH5, and not about building on top of some one elses work - obviously that changes things.

Going back to GWX 4, I am confused why you need to correct me?
The reasons were:
We had too few people avaliable to complete too much work.

SH5 was 9 months away and as far we were concerned (at the time) - it pretty much made GWX4 redundant. Especially when you consider that at the rate we were going, GWX4 was not gonna be out before SH5 either.

At the time GWX4 was scrapped, No campaign files had been scripted, BigBoyWooly made some head way at the begining then had to leave due to some to personal reasons.
Privateer was frantically looking in to ways to port the campaign files from SH3 to SH4, but as brilliant as he is, it was a tall order for just one guy.

Much of the 3d work was done by REF who has since dissapeared and cut himself off from the entire subsimming scene, my guess is he burned out. Can his work still be used with permission? - no body knows since he wont reply to emails, pms - nothing.

[JU_88]

LOL. I love how you cite these as specifric problems with SH4, when SH5 has only one U-boat class (The VII series), a very limited selection of merchant ships and a campaign that got amputated around May 1943.

What problems with SH4? - its not a Uboat sim, thats all. Ducimus has answered for me tbh, Assuming you started from unmodded, would you rather have to script 2-3 years of campaign layers for SH5, or the full 5-6 years for SH4 1.5? Big, big difference.

[Ducimus]

We had too few people avaliable to complete too much work.
.

Hmmm, story of my "life" with SH4. You know TMO is like 2 gig's worth of data now? It nearly doubles the size of SH4 if you install with JSGME due to the file backup procedure it does.

Anywho, I and a few other modders know this pain all too well. I did start a Uboat mod, with a very narrow focus, (See screenshots Here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=171443), here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1448920&postcount=121), and here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1449876&postcount=139)) but, after putting up with exactly what you just said, for so long, and despite that narrow focus, I just don't have it in me to do anymore with it.

[JU_88]

Hmmm, story of my "life" with SH4. You know TMO is like 2 gig's worth of data now? It nearly doubles the size of SH4 if you install with JSGME due to the file backup procedure it does.

Anywho, I and a few other modders know this pain all too well. I did start a Uboat mod, with a very narrow focus, (See screenshots Here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=171443), here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1448920&postcount=121), and here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1449876&postcount=139)) but, after putting up with exactly what you just said, for so long, and despite that narrow focus, I just don't have it in me to do anymore with it.

A shame you burned out mate, but I can totally understand.
Bearing in mind what you and steve have said, it rather sounds like its high time I spent some quality iphone toilet browsing time in the SH4 mods forum...
As it happens I still have a clean SH4 installed for testing DAT's. :)

[609_Avatar]

Just wanted to add my unasked for .02. :) SH4 with Op Monsun is brilliant! Well worth the time to give it a shot. If we could have that working flawlessly in SH5? Heaven... :D

[Sailor Steve]

Ok Steve - So Ive not played OP Monsun sorry! and maybe Ducimus is right and I need to take a look at Lurker's work.
But to be honest mate, I was talking about Stock SH4 compared to Stock SH5, and not about building on top of some one elses work - obviously that changes things.
I took offense at the idea that stuff couldn't be imported into SH4.

On the other hand...D'OH!

Going back to GWX 4, I am confused why you need to correct me?
The reasons were:
We had too few people avaliable to complete too much work.
I completely forgot that you were a part of the team. :oops:
In fact, you were doing some of the work I admired the most.:oops::oops:

I do apologize for that "little" gaff.

On the other hand I do stand by the other things I said, as I believe SH4 still has the potential to be SH3 with extra teeth, if only the people still working on SH3 would pay attention to it.

But I also agree about SH5. If they can figure out the things that still need figuring out it has the potential to outstrip them all. :sunny:

[JScones]

Hmmm, story of my "life" with SH4. You know TMO is like 2 gig's worth of data now? It nearly doubles the size of SH4 if you install with JSGME due to the file backup procedure it does.
Why don't you make an installer? Seriously, I'll put one together for you if you want.

[Zoomer96]

How about modding Silent Hunter 5 to include the Pacific Theater? I haven't been playing it lately, but it is a great subsim. The Uboat war is okay but I am more comfortable with the Gato, S boats and Balao class. So Why not a Fleet boat Add On? I feel that we should put everyone on the same page................

[Madox58]

We can't even add fully working Ships yet.
:nope:
So fully working Player Subs are a ways down the road I'm afraid.

[Zoomer96]

Well, that just sucks!

[danlisa]

So Why not a Fleet boat Add On? I feel that we should put everyone on the same page................

Yes, and by the law of averages, following a half assed attempt with Uboats and a half assed attempt with Fleet boat, they might have been able to produce a complete all encompassing game that satisfied everyone.

Oh wait.:rotfl2::rotfl2::har:

[Takeda Shingen]

How about modding Silent Hunter 5 to include the Pacific Theater? I haven't been playing it lately, but it is a great subsim. The Uboat war is okay but I am more comfortable with the Gato, S boats and Balao class. So Why not a Fleet boat Add On? I feel that we should put everyone on the same page................

Modders are a highly-individualistic bunch; they generally go to work on what interests them. However, if they were to drop everything and work on player subs, they would most likely be II's and IX's to flesh out the ATO before anyone would even consider the PTO. So, Wolves of the Pacific II is a long ways away.

[Madox58]

Besides,
If the Modders did it?
What would Ubi have to sell us next?
:haha:

[Barso]

I have been waiting for the IL2 sequel by Oleg Maddox and his team and wouldn't it be great if a team like his could apply the care and attention they do to a subsim?
I know they take a long time to arrive but I think we would all wait if it meant waiting for the definitive SH sequel.

[Ducimus]

How about modding Silent Hunter 5 to include the Pacific Theater? I haven't been playing it lately, but it is a great subsim. The Uboat war is okay but I am more comfortable with the Gato, S boats and Balao class. So Why not a Fleet boat Add On? I feel that we should put everyone on the same page................


Read this post:
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1482419&postcount=107

And realize it is the exact same situation for the PTO with SH5.

[Takeda Shingen]

One more anticedote: 'Putting everyone on the same page' is not really going to wash. The modders are not our's to command. SubSim gives them a place to congregate and share their ideas, but their work is their own, and they do it as they see fit. This would be like me demanding that JScones release a new version of SHCommander or his mod enabler. He does not work for us, and does his work as it pleases him. There are no conscripts here.

[Ducimus]

One more anticedote: 'Putting everyone on the same page' is not really going to wash. The modders are not our's to command. SubSim gives them a place to congregate and share their ideas, but their work is their own, and they do it as they see fit. This would be like me demanding that JScones release a new version of SHCommander or his mod enabler. He does not work for us, and does his work as it pleases him. There are no conscripts here.

I gotta say, when one person starts talking to a modder like their the "customer" and the modder the "service provider". It gets noticed in bad ways. The kicker is while most modders do their own thing, many do talk amongst each other.

[Barso]

I sincerely hope that none of the modders have ever felt that I look at them as being someone who should do THEIR work as a service to me or the community.
I admire them for what they do because as much as I would love to do what they do, I just could never find the time to do it and what small free time I do have available to myself I would rather play the game than try to fix it or extend it's capabilities.

[Madox58]

I gotta say, when one person starts talking to a modder like their the "customer" and the modder the "service provider". It gets noticed in bad ways. The kicker is while most modders do their own thing, many do talk amongst each other.


I agree.
There are past modders who for this reason alone have edited thier posts and removed all the links to the work they did.

[Highbury]

Besides,
If the Modders did it?
What would Ubi have to sell us next?
:haha:

Other countries? lol

I am not one of those people who wants it moved forward in time, WWII suits me fine. But Japan or England may be a nice change....

Ah well, I doubt there will be a SH6 anyways :nope:

I have been waiting for the IL2 sequel by Oleg Maddox and his team and wouldn't it be great if a team like his could apply the care and attention they do to a subsim?

Yeah, but almost 4 years delayed is a BIT extreme isn't it? I like attention to detail, but when you take so long you have to keep revamping the whole thing for new tech.. we have an issue.

[Arclight]

It's a bit worrying when a studio sinks all their reserves in 1 title, yes. Certainly didn't do 3D Realms any good. :doh:

[JScones]

It's a bit worrying when a studio sinks all their reserves in 1 title, yes. Certainly didn't do 3D Realms any good. :doh:
I wouldn't be too sure about that now, albeit new developer... http://www.pcworld.com/article/204844/pigs_fly_duke_nukem_forever_to_ship_in_2011.html?t k=hp_new and http://www.3drealms.com/

Still, yeah, not gonna help 3D Realms I guess.

[Arclight]

I wouldn't be too sure about that now, albeit new developer... http://www.pcworld.com/article/204844/pigs_fly_duke_nukem_forever_to_ship_in_2011.html?t k=hp_new and http://www.3drealms.com/

Still, yeah, not gonna help 3D Realms I guess.
I'm aware of Gearbox picking up the pieces. Still leaves 3D with an entire team laid off and millions down the drain. :yep:

Maddox maneuvred himself into the same situation as far as I know; either he releases before November, or it's vaporware. He'll simply be out of money at that point.

[JScones]

Certainly will be interesting to see what happens come November. :yep:

[Arclight]

Think he was shooting for Setember 15th. If they don't make that, they'll likely shove it out the door because they have to, instead of being finished.

Have no interest in another buggy heap that even the biggest day-1 patch can't save. :-?

[JScones]

Has Oleg settled on a Publisher - Ubisoft or 1C?

[Letum]

Has Oleg settled on a Publisher - Ubisoft or 1C?

Ubi announced that they had the title several years ago, but since then there has been no word.

[Arclight]

1C as far as I know. Not really sure, but pretty sure he ditched Ubi, so that leaves 1C.

[Arclight]

Actually, both may be involved. Ubi's involvement is unclear like Letum states. Perhaps 1C will handle Russian/English release while Ubi handles localised versions.

[JScones]

Thanks. He certainly seems to be playing his cards close to his chest.

[Highbury]

Actually, both may be involved. Ubi's involvement is unclear like Letum states. Perhaps 1C will handle Russian/English release while Ubi handles localised versions.

I think it will still be both. Ubi's announcment is still on their website (saying it would be in stores Nov 2006! :har:) and it lists both of them pretty clearly in the legal stuff at the bottom. Have they said anything to indicate that has changed?

http://www.ubi.com/US/News/Info.aspx?nId=3950

[Spike]

http://www.1cpublishing.eu/game/il-2-sturmovik-cliffs-of-dover/overview

[Steeltrap]

My impression with the game market is it suffers from the same thing a lot of industries do. Think music and movies, for example.

Someone does something innovative and everyone else crowds in an attempt to score some cash. Usually they are hollow imitatations.

The irony is the $$ people become risk averse, forgetting the fact that the initial innovation involved RISK on something no yet done. That's why so many hollywood films are such tedious tosh.

Then there's the market. So many internet generation kiddies have the attention spans of hyperactive ferrets with significant cocaine habits. So it's all flash and sound. The underlying mechanic, the 'brains' that make a game complex (in a good sense), challenging and replayable are no longer held at a premium.

So Ubi will plug Assassins over and over? Yawn. Game is a major snore fest (don't own it but spent and afternoon trying it). Repetitive. Not even imaginitive. Frankly Deus Ex (original) laughs at most of these things. Consider what happened with Deus Ex II. Classic example of going to the well and pissing in it.

SHIII was significantly innovative. SH4 was a travesty, a bug-riddled, lazy piece of ****e. As I read about SH5 I was one of the "this sounds bad" and became a "DRM? Off you go, guys, I'm not entering into that idiocy". That I haven't I don't regret one second.

Game generations are remarkably like human ones. Some genius makes a fortune. They have kids, who inherit a name and a lot of $$. They might maintain it if lucky, but usually start a decline. The 3rd generation is the entitled ("oh, I'm xyz's family and demand respect, even if I do nothing of consequence to earn it"), bad-habit riddled losers who squander the lot.

Someone mentioned Total War. Oh boy. Talk about great example. Empire was a disgrace on release. Then they lied through their arses. Specifically, a paid arse called Kieren something whose responses ranged from the laughable to the deranged/deluded to the demonstrably deceitful (sorry, I seem to be in alliteration mode). So I bought Empire, ignored Napoleon, and won't touch Shogun for at least 6 months, if at all.

Quality wins out, ultimately. SH has a poor quality pedigree if you look at its recent past without rose coloured glasses. So do so many other games. Sadly, publishers rely on the rabid nature of gamers who have to have the latest thing no matter how inept it is. That works well for their crowd, but for those of us who want something substantial and thoughtful, it's a death spiral.

Rant over...(hey, I've not posted a while). :D

[Zedi]

Sometimes I have the feeling that the humankind depleted his imagination and creativity. Or was killed by the technology. Everything is based on CGI and eye candys now, less on creativity.. no matter if is about movies, games, cars or whatever. Is what sell stuff, the shiny.. but empty box.

[Arclight]

It's just to bloody popular and "mainstream" nowadays. It started with people making games because they wanted to. Nowadays games are made and sold for the money.

Not saying everyone working on a title is just there for the money, a lot of the programmers and artists truly love what they do. But ultimately it's the people they take their directions from that control the project, and especially with the bigger companies it's those individuals that are more concerned about keeping the shareholders happy than keeping their customers happy.


Just an opinion of course. How you can keep a studio going without delivering any quality is beyond me.

[wingtip]

How many of you in the future will PreOrder a game from Ubisoft or another publisher ?

Will you wait for better reviews after game is released ?

Wait for a playable Demo ?



Many of us old farts have been down this road to many times and is why many of us never bought SH5 in the first place... after reading alot of the reviews it clearly spelled out how horrible the game was, not to mention the DRM at the time... So I chose NOT TO PURCHASE IT.

I own sh3 and sh4 but ubi lost my money on sh5.. And Im sorry, even with all the mods i refuse to load up 40-50 mods just to make a game playable and that was only after it had been released for months where the mod community had time to develop said mods...


This whole thread is interesting but pointless... SH5 was for a fact a failure... UBI now realizes that... lets drop it and hope to hell they do it right on sh6 and not rush it... trying to figure out who to blame page after page is pointless... SH5 was a failure from day 1 only barely saved by the modders.