Enemy convoys, neutral convoys and "convoys"?

[desirableroasted]

What is the difference between an "enemy" convoy and a "neutral" one? Is the presence of one neutral merchant sufficient for it to be designated a "neutral" convoy?

Also, does "convoy" require at least one armed naval escort? Because you sometimes see 2- and 3-merchant French convoys, but they are never designated as such.

[Gerald]

What is the difference between an "enemy" convoy and a "neutral" one? Is the presence of one neutral merchant sufficient for it to be designated a "neutral" convoy?

Also, does "convoy" require at least one armed naval escort? Because you sometimes see 2- and 3-merchant French convoys, but they are never designated as such.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/Admin-Hist/011-Convoy/011-Convoy-3.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Atlantic_%281939%E2%80%931945%29

[frau kaleun]

I think the "enemy" or "neutral" part is determined by whose Navy is providing the (lead) escort.

I'm not sure that an armed naval escort is required. I'm pretty sure the first convoy I intercepted coming out of Freetown didn't have one. There was an armed ship somewhere in the group, but IIRC the only visual/sonar IDs I got were of merchant ships, no warships.

But if no nation is providing a military escort then I don't know how a convoy is tagged as enemy or neutral. Maybe it depends on the nationality of the lead merchant, or of the majority of the merchants involved.

[HW3]

The nationality of the lead ship of the convoy determines whether the convoy is enemy or neutral. The lead ship is the one in the middle of the front row. If it happens to be a warship, it will show/be reported as a task force instead of a convoy.:yep:

[K-61]

I recently intercepted a small convoy, close to set up attack and then realized something was wrong. There were only five merchantmen, fat ones at that, and all were flying the Irish flag. It broke my heart but I had to let them alone. This was off the southern coast of Ireland; they were sailing to the southwest, destination unknown. First time I have ever seen a neutral convoy. GWX Gold.

[Panser]

What is the difference between an "enemy" convoy and a "neutral" one? Is the presence of one neutral merchant sufficient for it to be designated a "neutral" convoy?

Particular to the game, I think it very much depends on the ships that make up the convoy. I have had the status of a convoy change after sinking a number of ships from it.

I have had both the reported "size" (small, medium or large) of a convoy and the military value (enemy or neutral) change after successful attacks on convoys on at least three occasions.

Certainly the latter appears to depend either on the number of neutral ships or overall neutral tonnage in a convoy. I decimated a convoy north of Ireland in late 1939 to the point that it became a "neutral convoy". It still had several smaller legitimate targets sailing in the convoy but many of the remaining ships were from neutral nationalities, including a particularly large american tanker.

[K-61]

I regard any ships in a convoy guarded by belligerent warships to be hostile. They are giving aid and comfort to the enemy and cannot expect to be magically protected that way. I respect neutral vessels sailing independently, but if they are in a British convoy, I attack them. I edit my renown penalty but do not use that to sink anything in sight. I have encountered neutrals sailing with lights on, illuminating their flags, but I have also seen neutrals running without lights. It has only been my ability to spot their flag that saved them. Recently I detected two merchantmen by hydrophones. After several hours of tracking them and lining up to attack I was disappointed to see two tankers flying the Stars and Stripes. Once Dec. 10-41 comes they'll get theirs!

[desirableroasted]

@HW3 Documentation? I recently ran across an "enemy convoy" (French) that was an ASW trawler, small freighter, large merchant, large merchant in a straight line. Are you saying that if the #2 ship had been a warship, it would be a TF? Have you ever seen that?

@frau I don't get close enough to escorts on approach to see their flags. But they react as enemy.

@panser I have also seen designations changed for convoys, which raises another question... is that random?

Need more wisdom here!

[frau kaleun]

@frau I don't get close enough to escorts on approach to see their flags. But they react as enemy.

As well they should, regardless of their nationality. They are responsible for the safety of the convoy, and would have to consider any approaching u-boat a threat to it.

[HW3]

desirableroasted,

I was refering to the box convoys. I have seen a S-class sub in the center of the front row in the lead position, and the convoy was reported as a task force. If you sink the lead ship, the lead passes to another ship, which one I do not know. I have run across box convoys reported as neutral and the only neutral ship in them happened to be the lead ship.

[K-61]

I really think the inclusion of British subs in GWX convoys is somewhat pointless. As they cannot behave historically, it would be better to replace them with a warship or merchant vessel. I'm certainly not going to waste a torpedo on one.

[HW3]

Here is a diagram of a convoy.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v64/davestev47/convoydiagram.jpg

The lead ship is the Commodore's ship, and what vessel occupies that ship position (center of the front row) is what determines how the convoy is reported in SH3.

[K-61]

Nice diagram, HW3. A large convoy must have been a grand sight to behold. You can only get a certain impression from photos or film.

[HW3]

I can't take credit for the diagram, I found it with a Google search.

BTW the fan shapes around the escorts is their radar according to the article that was with it.


:salute:

[desirableroasted]

Interesting stuff... thanks for the advice!