Israel: Iran Nuke Plant 'Totally Unacceptable'

[Gerald]

Israel criticizes the fueling of Iran's first nuclear power plant and calls for greater pressure to force Tehran to cease uranium enrichment.


http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/08/21/israel-iran-nuclear-reactor-totally-unacceptable/

[Aramike]

The power of the atom is not restricted to one nation or another. If Iran wants to use nuclear energy power plants, who are we to say otherwise?

Now, should spend uranium rods be weaponized, Iran's nuclear program should be wiped off the face of the Earth...

[Gerald]

Power plants are one thing, and nuke a completely different, and in the wrong hands In addition.

[Zachstar]

The Sun rises and sets...

[Onkel Neal]

Haha, I saw a news item on Slate.com (http://www.slate.com/)and without my glasses, this:

Iran Starts Fueling Nuclear Reactor

at first glance it looked a lot like the e in "Fueling" was a c, and the l was a k...
Iran Starts Fu**ing Nuclear Reactor

and I thought for a moment, hey, the media finally got it right :haha:

[XabbaRus]

A nuclear power plant for power and one for making a bomb are too different things. The Bushehr plant is a low grade reactor, and besides the Russians are providing and removing the fuel.

The thing has been on the go for 30 odd year. I think Israel is just thumping its drum on this.

Now I'm not saying Iran doesn't want nukes and that it isn't trying to make them but Bushehr has nothing to do with this.

[Castout]

The power of the atom is not restricted to one nation or another. If Iran wants to use nuclear energy power plants, who are we to say otherwise?



Well commented. :up:

[papa_smurf]

A nuclear power plant for power and one for making a bomb are too different things. The Bushehr plant is a low grade reactor, and besides the Russians are providing and removing the fuel.

The thing has been on the go for 30 odd year. I think Israel is just thumping its drum on this.

Now I'm not saying Iran doesn't want nukes and that it isn't trying to make them but Bushehr has nothing to do with this.
But doesn't Iran have 2 nuclear enrichment facilities ? So they do have the possible capability to enrich Uranium to weapons grade.

[Platapus]

Israel criticizes


So?

Last time I checked, the world still does not revolve around what Israel likes or dislikes. :nope:

[kranz]

But doesn't Iran have 2 nuclear enrichment facilities ? So they do have the possible capability to enrich Uranium to weapons grade.

actually i've heard about 10.

[TLAM Strike]

actually i've heard about 10.

http://img825.imageshack.us/img825/433/irannuclearfacilities.jpg

There is also an enrichment facility near the Iranian city of Qum, at a place called Fordo.

Here is a more extensive map (http://www.nti.org/e_research/profiles_pdfs/Iran/iran_nuclear_sites.pdf)


Now, should spend uranium rods be weaponized, Iran's nuclear program should be wiped off the face of the Earth... Want to weaponize it? Just put it in a GP Bomb with a air burst fuse.

In other news Iran releases new photos of Buzz Bomb...
http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3805/207624337752.jpg

[Gerald]

but there is always the possibility of using ancillary material to a great variety of weapons...

[Aramike]

Haha, I saw a news item on Slate.com (http://www.slate.com/)and without my glasses, this:

Iran Starts Fueling Nuclear Reactor

at first glance it looked a lot like the e in "Fueling" was a c, and the l was a k...
Iran Starts Fu**ing Nuclear Reactor

and I thought for a moment, hey, the media finally got it right :haha::haha::haha: :cool:

[XabbaRus]

My point was that the Bushehr reactor isn't capable of enriching or producing enriched uranium or plutonium, so I don't get the big deal of it going nuclear.

[Jimbuna]

I really don't see Israel or anyone else for that matter doing anything militarily until there is overpowering evidence to show that the enrichment process has started.

Even then a lot will depend on how major players such as Russia and China are feeling at the time.

Nobody is going to risk a possible escalation to a nuclear exchange over Iran.

Now if the major players can agree on a way forward, acceptable to them all.....all options would be on the table.

[Gerald]

is that there is always a potential security risk to gain control over their need of access to material,and it has nothing to do with the construction of power plants, although there are suspicions that the country an interest that there should be weapons-related, they have more plants not only this..

[Platapus]

My point was that the Bushehr reactor isn't capable of enriching or producing enriched uranium or plutonium, so I don't get the big deal of it going nuclear.


Technically the Bushehr reactor can produce Plutonium. Pretty much every fission reactor produces PU as a byproduct. The issue is what can the Iranian's do with the PU that will be produced at Bushehrr?

Not much. Even if they were allowed to keep the irradiated fuel rods (which is not part of the agreement) the Iranians do not have a Uranium reprocessing capability (e.g. PUREX) nor do they have a reprocessing facility (which are very hard to hide). Additionally, the Bushehr reactor will be monitored so that the burn-times of the rods will be known, which helps determine the isotope of PU being produced.

So this means

a. The Iranians will not be keeping the irradiated fuel rods with PU byproduct.

b. The Iranians will not be able to cook the rods to minimize the production of 240PU without everyone in the world knowing about it.

c. If they were able to keep them, they do not have the capability of extracting the PU.

And we have not even touched on whether Iran has the capability of constructing an implosion device. If you ask the North Koreans, they can tell you that it ain't easy.

There is a lot to worry about concerning Iran. This reactor is not one of them.

[TLAM Strike]

But they could build a bomb with just the U-235 like Fat Man (The Hiroshima Bomb) and Thin Man type devices.

This reactor doesn't matter either way.

[Platapus]

But they could build a bomb with just the U-235 like Fat Man (The Hiroshima Bomb) and Thin Man type devices.

This reactor doesn't matter either way.


you are absolutely correct. If they want to build a 235U device, they won't need a reactor at all, but their Uranium Enrichment facilities.

Only if they want to build a 239PU device will they need irradiated fuel rods, but then they also need a PUREX type facility.

A "thin man" device won't work. The Thin Man was a Plutonium gun type device. There are many obstacles to making a gun-type PU device (the speed of the gun needs to be about 10X faster than for a U gun-type device, for example), but in any case, for all practical purposes, if a nation is going to use PU for their devices, they will need to go with the much much more complicated and complex implosion design.

[Bubblehead1980]

Russia can't really be trusted to do the right thing, esp with Putin in charge.

[Tribesman]

Russia can't really be trusted to do the right thing, esp with Putin in charge.
Of course it can.
Russia can be trusted to do the right thing for Russia just like any other country can be.

[TLAM Strike]

Russia can't really be trusted to do the right thing, esp with Putin in charge.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/3825/524pxdmitrymedvedevoffi.jpg

Dmitry Medvedev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Medvedev) Current President of Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Russia).

[Gerald]

but if it really needed more "balls", to have the former KGB officer Vladimir Putin more of a say ..

[Zachstar]

Russia can't really be trusted to do the right thing, esp with Putin in charge.

Are you honestly saying Russia would do something as stupid as say giving Iran a few of the used fuel rods?

[Aramike]

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/3825/524pxdmitrymedvedevoffi.jpg

Dmitry Medvedev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Medvedev) Current President of Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Russia).Medvedev is President. Putin is Prime Minister, having been given that position due to term limits on the presidency.

Anyone who believes that Putin isn't in charge in Russia is decieving themselves.

[Bilge_Rat]

According to what I read, Iran already has enough material to build 2 nuclear devices, but to build them, they would have to take certain unmistakable steps, like kicking out the inspectors, which would alert everyone to what they are doing.

Let's not forget that most governements in Europe, America and even the middle east do not want Iran to possess nuclear weapons.

The 2003 invasion of Iraq upset the balance of power by taking out a Sunni regime and replacing it by a Shiite government. This allowed Iran to extend it's influence into Iraq. This worries the other regimes in the region, Syria, Jordan, Egypt and Saudi Arabia which have a Sunni majority.

Saudi Arabia is especially worried because it has a restless Shiite minority in its eastern provinces. Saudi Arabia, since 1948, was one of the most hard line states in its opposition to Israel. Yet, over the past few years, they have held direct but discreet talks with the Israeli governemnt and recently gave the IAF permission to overfly their territory, presumably if it becomes necessary for Israel to attack Iran. The Saudis now realize that Iran is a greater threat than Israel, which is wonderfully ironic. :DL

As usual, the ROW is quite willing to let Israel do the dirty work when it suits their national interest. Just compare the muted response of all governments, including Arab states in the region, when Israel attacked the Syrian reactor in 2007 to the outrage over the botched flotilla raid earlier this year.

[antikristuseke]

But doesn't Iran have 2 nuclear enrichment facilities ? So they do have the possible capability to enrich Uranium to weapons grade.

By the way the centrifuges in those facilities are arranged, they can not make weapons grade uranium.

[TLAM Strike]

By the way the centrifuges in those facilities are arranged, they can not make weapons grade uranium. "Weapons Grade" is a misnomer, Any Uranium can be used to build a bomb, it just requires a lot more U-235 to do it. At 20% enrichment it would need about 400 kg of U-235 to achieve critical mass.

[antikristuseke]

True that, but it is pretty difficult to weaponize low enriched uranium, due to the bulk and weight. Makes delivery a lot more difficult

[Aramike]

True that, but it is pretty difficult to weaponize low enriched uranium, due to the bulk and weight. Makes delivery a lot more difficultWould you put it past Iran?

I wouldn't.

[Jimbuna]

I think where Iran is concerned it would be wise to expect the unexpected

[Gerald]

I think where Iran is concerned it would be wise to expect the unexpected to think so..:yep:

[Platapus]

"Weapons Grade" is a misnomer, Any Uranium can be used to build a bomb, it just requires a lot more U-235 to do it. At 20% enrichment it would need about 400 kg of U-235 to achieve critical mass.

Not completely accurate.

You are correct, however, in stating that increasing the amount of 235U decreases the critical mass. But the critical mass of Uranium is the minimum density/configuration needed to sustain criticality, not achieve and maintain supercriticality.

Any concentration of 235U can achieve criticality depending on many factors (temperature, shape, reflectors), however, to build a "bomb", the material has to achieve a state of supercriticality.

Criticality is achieved when there is no increase or decrease in power, temperature, or neutron production. The number of neutrons produced is equal to the number of neutrons lost.

Supercriticality is achieved when there is an increase in power, temperature, and neutron production. The number of neutrons produced is greater than the number of neutrons lost.

Under achievable environments, it is incorrect to say that any concentration of Uranium can be made to achieve supercriticality.

[Bubblehead1980]

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/3825/524pxdmitrymedvedevoffi.jpg

Dmitry Medvedev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitry_Medvedev) Current President of Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/President_of_Russia).


Suppose I should have elaborated but Aramike said it so Ill save it mostly.Putin is really in charge of Russia and you are naive if you believe otherwise.

[The Third Man]

Like many mid-asian nations whose background is Muslim, much of what they say is, for lack of a better word, are exageration.

That being said, it doesn't mean we should reguard the rhetoric as empty.

At some point classic diplomacy can fail and military action must be employed to protect a nation. Since very few mid-asian nations have denounced the actions, the option should be on the table.

[Aramike]

I think the bottom line is that this thread is filled with assumptions and suppositions which make little sense. I remember in my early time here I posited portions of a paper I was writing which predicted North Korea would attain nuclear weapons. It was commented that somehow I was nuts for thinking that.

Now North Korea has nukes. Go figure.

Let's start from A, shall we? Should Iran be allowed nuclear power plants? Despite the limited, albeit very real, danger in "granting" this technology, in this the Russians got one right. How do you restrict atomic power? Quite frankly, their position on this was ingenious - which nation will attack Iran for building a friggin' power plant? So why not position themselves to profit from the construction of said plants?

Now onto B, it has been suggested here that it would be difficult, if not impossible for Iran to secretly weaponize Plutonium. Anyone who know's anything whatsoever about intelligence would understand the folly of that reasoning. Hiding just about anything within a sovereign nation's borders is fairly easily accomplished, all the moreso when said nation doesn't even begin to prescribe to personal freedoms.

My fear is that, unlike North Korea, Iran will not openly flaunt its nuclear weapons capability. Whether or not they are able to complete a true, multi-stage thermonuclear weapon or simply multiple "Fat Man" type bombs is academic when considering their true theological objective, which is Israel.

Ultimately, my point is this: let them have nuclear energy. Really - even if you disagree with it, who has the political will to prevent it? However, understand that nuclear weapons MAY not be far behind, and be prepared to take extraordinary measures should our intelligence sources indicate Iran's nuclear weapons ambitions coming to fruition.

And finally, my largest fear: we will be "Bushed-out" afraid if said intelligence indicates that Iran has nuclear weapons. Meaning, we will be so afraid that the intelligence is flawed that we won't act, ignoring the absolute imperative the stakes are in this game. Quite frankly, it's better to be wrong and act than to be right and be afraid to act.

If Iran insists on becoming nuclear, THEY assume that risk.

[Takeda Shingen]

Suppose I should have elaborated but Aramike said it so Ill save it mostly.Putin is really in charge of Russia and you are naive if you believe otherwise.

I am going to have to agree with that. Medvedev is no mere figurehead, but Putin does indeed hold considerable sway and he is very popular in Russia.

[WarlordATF]

Israel is probably watching all this very closely and its no secret that they have one of the worlds best spy networks. I think that when the time comes they will act swiftly and i doubt we will know anything about it until the bombs start falling. I really doubt they would announce their plans until it was too late for anyone to stop them.

The big question is how far will they go? Would they use Nukes to prevent Iran from obtaining them? If so then that could very well start WWIII because i'm sure Russia and China would react with there own nuclear weapons and once that happened who knows where it would lead?

[Schroeder]

Why would Russia and China go nuclear on this? They have nothing to gain from it. This isn't the cold war anymore after all.:hmmm:

[TLAM Strike]

Why would Russia and China go nuclear on this? They have nothing to gain from it. This isn't the cold war anymore after all.:hmmm:

Exactly, Russia and China would have keen interest in not allowing Iran to have nuclear weapons, both Russia and China have problems with Islamic Extremists who might receive nuclear weapons from Iran.

In fact Russia has already had two dirty bomb attempts by Chechen terrorists. I would not what to see what the Chechens would do with fissile material.

[Bilge_Rat]

The big question is how far will they go? Would they use Nukes to prevent Iran from obtaining them? If so then that could very well start WWIII because i'm sure Russia and China would react with there own nuclear weapons and once that happened who knows where it would lead?

One thing you can be certain is that Israel will not use nukes against Iran. The Israeli nukes are a last resort weapon. They were not used in 73 even though the Isarelli governement at one point thought they were about to be overrun.

This article is a bit old, but gives an idea of the Israeli plan:

Early in 2008, the Israeli government signaled that it might be preparing to take matters into its own hands. In a series of meetings, Israeli officials asked Washington for a new generation of powerful bunker-busters, far more capable of blowing up a deep underground plant than anything in Israel’s arsenal of conventional weapons. They asked for refueling equipment that would allow their aircraft to reach Iran and return to Israel. And they asked for the right to fly over Iraq.

Mr. Bush deflected the first two requests, pushing the issue off, but “we said ‘hell no’ to the overflights,” one of his top aides said. At the White House and the Pentagon, there was widespread concern that a political uproar in Iraq about the use of its American-controlled airspace could result in the expulsion of American forces from the country.

(...)

Last June, the Israelis conducted an exercise over the Mediterranean Sea that appeared to be a dry run for an attack on the enrichment plant at Natanz. When the exercise was analyzed at the Pentagon, officials concluded that the distances flown almost exactly equaled the distance between Israel and the Iranian nuclear site.

“This really spooked a lot of people,” one White House official said. White House officials discussed the possibility that the Israelis would fly over Iraq without American permission. In that case, would the American military be ordered to shoot them down? If the United States did not interfere to stop an Israeli attack, would the Bush administration be accused of being complicit in it?





http://www.nytimes.com/2009/01/11/washington/11iran.html?_r=1&pagewanted=1

Since then Israel has received permission to over fly Saudi Arabia which solves condition #3. It apparently has a limited in flight refueling capacity which solves condition #2, if they can station the tankers over Saudi arabia. The only question mark remaining is the weapons.

p.s. As an aside, President Bush was not as much a cowboy as the Democrats make him out to be.

[Jimbuna]

Brakig it down into its simplest form....I can't imagine Israel attacking whilst there are Russian personnel at the plant. The risk of angering Russia and causing a retaliatory strike from them is simply too great IMHO.

I think the Israelis will await irrefutable proof and a Russian staff exit before moving in a hostile way.

I've been known to be way off the mark in the past mind :hmmm:

[Gerald]

Iran says it's prepared sell weapons to Lebanon if Beirut asks for military assistance.TEHRAN, Iran (AP) — Iran is prepared to sell weapons to Lebanon if Beirut asks for help in equipping its military, Iran's defense minister said Wednesday.

Gen. Ahmad Vahidi's comments come a day after the leader of Lebanon's Shiite Hezbollah group, Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, called on the Lebanese government to formally seek military assistance from Iran.

"Lebanon is our friend," Vahidi was quoted as saying by the official IRNA news agency. "If there is a demand in this respect, we are ready to help that country and conduct weapons transactions with it."

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/08/25/iran-says-prepared-sell-weapons-lebanon-beirut-asks-military-assistance/


Note:Published August 25, 2010

[MH]

The big question is how far will they go? Would they use Nukes to prevent Iran from obtaining them? If so then that could very well start WWIII because i'm sure Russia and China would react with there own nuclear weapons and once that happened who knows where it would lead?
Why China and Israel should go to war is beyond me since both coutries are friendly.
Is there are a need to use nukes on Iran?
All Israel need is silent aproval of some nations to do it
Dont think anyone want to see Iran selling jihad throu third party organizations having nukes as insurence policy.

[gimpy117]

oh Israel stop trying to complain until everybody else does what you want.

the U.S has spoiled them too much by supporting them no matter what. If Iran wants Nulcear power, so be it. If its for nukes...we'll have to deal with it. But until then, innocent until proven guilty

[TLAM Strike]

But until then, innocent until proven guilty 'Guilty' in this case maybe birds in the air... :down: