Dutch Muslim Group Fined for Holocaust Cartoon

[mookiemookie]

A Dutch Muslim group was fined 2,500 euros ($3,200) for publishing a cartoon which suggested the Holocaust was made up or exaggerated by Jews, a Dutch appeals court ruled on Thursday.

The court in the western city of Arnhem overruled an acquittal handed down by a Dutch lower court, saying the cartoon, published on the website of the Arab European League's (AEL) in 2006, was "unnecessarily hurtful."

"The court points out that the European Court of Human Rights, which considers freedom of speech of paramount importance and defends it thoroughly, makes an exception for the denial or trivialization of the Holocaust," the court said.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=11438032

What a crock. How am I supposed to condemn the Muslims getting all uppity about people drawing Mohammed cartoons when they get fined for drawing Holocaust cartoons.

That being said, I have nothing but respect for our Jewish friends, but it really is a case of what's good for the goose is good for the gander.

The Dutch group says it had no intention of disputing the Holocaust, but wanted instead to highlight what it described as double standards in free speech. Touché.

[ETR3(SS)]

Interesting. Is this meant to be a message to Europe and/or the world that they can get away with anything and that it really isn't fair?:hmmm:

[Gerald]

to those who see it seriously!

[DarkFish]

What a crock. How am I supposed to condemn the Muslims getting all uppity about people drawing Mohammed cartoons when they get fined for drawing Holocaust cartoons.The difference is that Muhammad is about religious beliefs, while the Holocaust isn't. If some Muslim group made a cartoon about Moses, there'd be no problem.

The Muhammad cartoons are about beliefs. They don't say anything derogatory about any person, only about their beliefs. Where would this world go if we couldn't counter and ridicule another person's beliefs? Half of all the scientific progress of the last centuries would not have happened and we'd still live in the Middle Ages.

The Holocaust cartoons are about a real-life event, with real people involved, with real deaths and real feelings of hurt.
If your dad got killed by the Nazi's, and I told you "Your dad is a scamp, that damn fraud only pretended to be killed to gain compassion, and you hypocrite just play along!", wouldn't you be angry and hurt as well? Denying the Holocaust is exactly that.

the western city of ArnhemWait - what?! Arnhem is about as far east as you can get:doh:
The city I grew up in, and lived until a year ago. Got good memories about it:)

[Platapus]

... suggested the Holocaust was made up or exaggerated

Well, which is it? There is a huge difference between someone who believes the holocaust is fake and someone who believes that some of the details of the holocaust may have been exaggerated.

[Stealth Hunter]

Well, which is it? There is a huge difference between someone who believes the holocaust is fake and someone who believes that some of the details of the holocaust may have been exaggerated.

The cartoon shows two men in Auschwitz looking at several dead bodies. "I don't think they are Jews," says one man. The one man replies: "We have to get to the 6,000,000 (figure) somehow'. Six million Jews were killed during the Holocaust.Not any worse content there than what the Internet Hate Machine puts out. They weren't denying its existence. On that note, the "I don't think they are Jews" part really is what stands out the most. And it's not entirely unfounded. Auschwitz was a concentration camp that also held a large populace of homosexuals, gypsies, Socialists and Communists (among other political dissidents), and captured soldiers as well (Russians and even a few Romanians). This fact should not be overlooked when discussing the Holocaust. Regrettably, it's only ever briefly discussed. You don't hear much about people like Heinz Alt, the Salomon family, Henri Landwirth, Lev Rebet, etc.

[tater]

I agree with the OP.

Freedom of expression exists, or it doesn't. Let everyone publish whatever they want.

Note that Europe has some odd laws in that respect post-WW2 which is likely why this special case happened. I personally still disagree, but that is European reality.

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm offended with being offended. :stare: Offenses need to stop.

[Weiss Pinguin]

I'm offended with being offended. :stare: Offenses need to stop.
I think you need to tone down your tone there, Mister, lest you upset someone :shifty:

[AVGWarhawk]

I think you need to tone down your tone there, Mister, lest you upset someone :shifty:

I find that remark offensive. Might be a bit off color also. :stare: I don't know what color but I will find one. :stare:

[Weiss Pinguin]

I find that remark offensive. Might be a bit off color also. :stare: I don't know what color but I will find one. :stare:
I didn't want to do this, but now that you've brought color into I have no choice :stare: Your mom!

[frau kaleun]

*sigh*

This is why we can't have nice things.

[Jimbuna]

I find that remark offensive. Might be a bit off color also. :stare: I don't know what color but I will find one. :stare:

I didn't want to do this, but now that you've brought color into I have no choice :stare: Your mom!

Huh? :hmmm:











:03:

[Bubblehead1980]

oh no oh no, we must be tolerant of the muslims intolerance:har: Remember guys, they get a special set of rules.

[August]

The Dutch group says it had no intention of disputing the Holocaust, but wanted instead to highlight what it described as double standards in free speech.

The only double standard I see is that nobody is threatening to behead the group for creating their cartoon.

[Eightbit]

I'm offended with being offended. :stare: Offenses need to stop.

Eh. My feeling exactly.

[Fish]

Wait - what?! Arnhem is about as far east as you can get:doh:
The city I grew up in, and lived until a year ago. Got good memories about it:)


My wife is from Arnhem. :yep:

[Dowly]

My wife is from Arnhem. :yep:

Sorry to hear that, mate. :O:

[Tchocky]

I was in Arnhem last Saturday. Survived unscathed. Wonderful museum in Oosterbeek :up:

[TLAM Strike]

Sorry to hear that, mate. :O:

Dowly now that was a comment too far... :03:

[frau kaleun]

Dowly now that was a comment too far... :03:

:haha:

[UnderseaLcpl]

The only double standard I see is that nobody is threatening to behead the group for creating their cartoon.
http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o264/charlie143james/untitled.jpg

^^Skybird

[The Third Man]

Do the Dutch have a thing which restricts the government from restricting such cartoons ?

I have never heard of it so the Dutch government is within its rights to restrict anything they like.

If the Dutch want to change I would suggest http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution

[Arclight]

If the Dutch want to change I would suggest http://topics.law.cornell.edu/constitution
No thanks, think we'll be fine, like we've been for the last couple of centuries.

[Skybird]

The only double standard I see is that nobody is threatening to behead the group for creating their cartoon.

:DL :up:

[Schroeder]

Skybird is agreeing with August?:o
Is nothing sacred?
The end of the world is near...:dead:


:D

[Skybird]

Skybird is agreeing with August?:o
Is nothing sacred?
The end of the world is near...:dead:


:D
Actually I agree with August more often than you or he maybe imagines, although differences also remains. ;)

[DarkFish]

Actually I agree with August more often than you or he maybe imagines, although differences also remains. ;)Hah.
Personally I just as often agree with Skybird as I used to agree with OneToughHerring (what happened to him anyway?). If anyone here is a political anomaly....:O:

I was in Arnhem last Saturday. Survived unscathed. Wonderful museum in Oosterbeek :up:you should have been here last year at the yearly commemoration of the Battle of Arnhem. With IIRC some 1000 parachutists jumping, it must have looked about the same as almost 66 years ago. One hell of a show:yeah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2pWpy2GeKCM&feature=search

[Schroeder]

Hah.
Personally I just as often agree with Skybird as I used to agree with OneToughHerring (what happened to him anyway?).

I think he didn't survive the "Get tough on trolls week" a few months back.

[Sailor Steve]

Not any worse content there than what the Internet Hate Machine puts out. They weren't denying its existence. On that note, the "I don't think they are Jews" part really is what stands out the most. And it's not entirely unfounded. Auschwitz was a concentration camp that also held a large populace of homosexuals, gypsies, Socialists and Communists (among other political dissidents), and captured soldiers as well (Russians and even a few Romanians). This fact should not be overlooked when discussing the Holocaust. Regrettably, it's only ever briefly discussed. You don't hear much about people like Heinz Alt, the Salomon family, Henri Landwirth, Lev Rebet, etc.
But the non-jews in the camps are usually counted separately, and the six million number is commonly accepted as being for jews only. Including Soviet POWs, Romani (Gypsies), and other groups raised the total to anywhere from eleven million to twenty-one million.

Including Stalin's purges in Russia and Russian citizens killed by the Germans, and of course military losses, the total number of deaths in WW2 rises to an estimated fifty-five million people.

Pretty staggering when you think about it.

[Jimbuna]

I think he didn't survive the "Get tough on trolls week" a few months back.

Yep :yep:

[Platapus]

and the six million number is commonly accepted as being for jews only.


But does that mean it is an accurate number or simply a popular number?

cf my signature :06:

[kranz]

But does that mean it is an accurate number or simply a popular number?

cf my signature :06:

yup, that's exactly how it goes. in poland it is more politically correct just to say "seven millions" JEWS. no one gives a damn about their passports. polish jews, hungarian, dutch, french, english, german etc-nope, they were simply jews.

[Schroeder]

Here in Germany it said to be 6 million murdered Jews (Wikipedia says between 5.6 and 6.3 million). I think it is pretty accurate as the Nazis (and Germans in general...) kept a record of everything. The lists with the names of the victims do still exist as far as I know.

[Jimbuna]

I'm not vouching for the accuracy of the figures below but this will give some indication of how many people died:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

[Platapus]

Here in Germany it said to be 6 million murdered Jews (Wikipedia says between 5.6 and 6.3 million). I think it is pretty accurate as the Nazis (and Germans in general...) kept a record of everything. The lists with the names of the victims do still exist as far as I know.

That is actually a sticking point with some researchers. The Germans did keep accurate records and if you want to know about how much materials were used in the camps, that information is there. However concerning the lists of people killed, some researchers have some problems with the accuracy of the records. They are not denying that it happened, they are just questioning the records. Unfortunately, in today's climate, any,, question seems to brand one an anti-Semite. :nope:

We need to get past this emotional reaction if accurate, correct, and complete historical research and analysis can occur.

This is why I like to differentiate between the actual deniers and those questioning specific data.

[TLAM Strike]

yup, that's exactly how it goes. in poland it is more politically correct just to say "seven millions" JEWS. no one gives a damn about their passports. polish jews, hungarian, dutch, french, english, german etc-nope, they were simply jews. I remember a discussion I had with a couple of friends in school once about this. This Girl and Me had to explain to a friend how even though she was not a member of the Jewish faith as her parents were members of the 'Jewish Race' IE ethnic Jewish and she would be considered a Jew by the Nazis. We explained how that being Jewish is both an act of religious affiliation and or the state of being descended from a particular ethnic group by blood.

But the non-jews in the camps are usually counted separately, and the six million number is commonly accepted as being for jews only. Including Soviet POWs, Romani (Gypsies), and other groups raised the total to anywhere from eleven million to twenty-one million.

Including Stalin's purges in Russia and Russian citizens killed by the Germans, and of course military losses, the total number of deaths in WW2 rises to an estimated fifty-five million people.

Pretty staggering when you think about it. Also around half the total people killed were Soviet, over 26 million.

[kranz]

I wanted to add sth to what Schroeder said: yeah, they kept a record but I remember when I was in the Auschwitz death camp the guide told us that the number of people killed here can only be given approximately bcoz of the fact that indeed-the majority of transports had to undergo a full registration process with stating who can work and who "cannot" but there were plenty of transports which avoided this procedure and as he said "went straight to the gas chambers" with only the number of carts and the city of the previous camp registered. Another thing, especially when we are talking about total number of Jews would be the Einsatzgruppen working on the east- the conditions in which they were killing. The values given by either wikipedia or books are always "more or less".

[Jimbuna]

I'm not vouching for the accuracy of the figures below but this will give some indication of how many people died:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

Here are the figures for WWI:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties