View Full Version : Insubordinate army doctor asks for court martial:
The Third Man
08-11-10, 01:14 PM
This guy needs to get his court martial and go to Levenworth.
Lt. Col. Terrence Lakin is scheduled to be arraigned Friday at Fort Belvoir, VA and in all likelihood will either be sentenced to detention and/or given a dishonorable discharge from the military.
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/blogs/ybenjamin/detail?entry_id=69555#ixzz0wK3HeeHB
Hope they toss his butt in jail for a long time.
His whole argument is invalid. Even if he were right about Obama and I'm not saying he is, it makes absolutely no difference. He wasn't ordered to Afghanistan by the President. He was ordered to Afghanistan by his immediate Commander.
Platapus
08-11-10, 06:29 PM
It would be a travesty if this guy gets off. His orders to AF did not come from the President, but came from his headquarters. We can not allow military members to decide whether or not to obey legal orders. Especially we can't allow officers to display cowardice in times of combat.
I want him to have a felony conviction on his record
Forfeit of all pay and benefits (kiss that retirement good bye)
Give him the Big Chicken Dinner (Dishonorable discharges can be complicated and are subject to review.)
I wish there was some way to yank his medical certification but I guess that's not allowed.
While I feel that a prison sentence is called for. Since he is showing cowardice by missing a movement in a combat situation, it would be nice if the military could hold him in prison for the duration of the war on terrorism.
But in any case, this is an crime that the military must make a strong statement about as it threatens the entire framework of the military services.
Ducimus
08-11-10, 06:46 PM
Crap like this (and other things) makes me wonder what happened to us as a people. 10 years ago, this type of thing was unheard of, and especially not from an officer.
Platapus
08-11-10, 06:49 PM
I disagree, we have had cowards in the military ever since the Revolutionary War. During the first Gulf War we had people bailing out when they got orders to SA.
These days there is just more coverage and viability. If this guy did not try to conceal his cowardice by trying to make this an "Obama thing", it would not get the coverage it has.
AVGWarhawk
08-11-10, 06:54 PM
I disagree, we have had cowards in the military ever since the Revolutionary War. During the first Gulf War we had people bailing out when they got orders to SA.
These days there is just more coverage and viability. If this guy did not try to conceal his cowardice by trying to make this an "Obama thing", it would not get the coverage it has.
I would have to agree here. :up:
Bubblehead1980
08-11-10, 06:56 PM
I'm slightly torn on this.This guy is standing up for what he believes in and can't blame him, taking orders from someone like Obama is blah.Then again, he's in the military and his job is to obey lawful orders of those above him, he doesnt need to be hung out to dry because he spoke up.an admin discharge would be fine.
Ducimus
08-11-10, 06:59 PM
Well, when I was in, I never heard of such a thing. To me, it's utterly unthinkable. You relinquished your ability to choose the instant you signed the contract. You do what your told (lawfully), and you go where your sent. Period. The only choices this guy really had, was what to put down on his "dream sheet". Now, he is a malfunctioning piece of government property and needs to be put in his place. I'd love it if he had reduction of rank to Private Basic.. and thats just for starters.
AVGWarhawk
08-11-10, 07:05 PM
I'm slightly torn on this.This guy is standing up for what he believes in and can't blame him, taking orders from someone like Obama is blah.Then again, he's in the military and his job is to obey lawful orders of those above him, he doesnt need to be hung out to dry because he spoke up.an admin discharge would be fine.
Yes he does need to be hung out to dry. If not the next thing you know platoons of men are looking to do the same thing. Speaking up in the military only happens when you are asked to speak up.
AVGWarhawk
08-11-10, 07:06 PM
Well, when I was in, I never heard of such a thing. To me, it's utterly unthinkable. You relinquished your ability to choose the instant you signed the contract. You do what your told (lawfully), and you go where your sent. Period. The only choices this guy really had, was what to put down on his "dream sheet". Now, he is a malfunctioning piece of government property and needs to be put in his place. I'd love it if he had reduction of rank to Private Basic.. and thats just for starters.
I'm with on this one brother! Really, the guy probably enjoyed all the benefits of the mililtary. Three hots and a cot, etc. Now it is pay back time and he pulls this crap? Really? :stare:
Platapus
08-11-10, 07:07 PM
If he really had a problem with Obama than he should have resigned his commission in Jan 2009. That would have been the honourable thing to do. But, he decided that it would be better to continue taking the government's money..... up until he had to go to a war zone and then all of a sudden he decided that this was an Obama thing.
That dog won't hunt. :nope:
This has little to do with Obama and so much to do with this jerk pooping his nappies when he got orders to the theater.
Ducimus
08-11-10, 07:11 PM
I'm slightly torn on this.This guy is standing up for what he believes in and can't blame him, taking orders from someone like Obama is blah.Then again, he's in the military and his job is to obey lawful orders of those above him, he doesnt need to be hung out to dry because he spoke up.an admin discharge would be fine.
Who the commander in chief is, is irrelevant. You don't have to like the man, but you do have to respect his position. Politics are not matters for the military. Not now, not ever. Regardless if this guy likes it or not, Obama is the President of the United States of America, and Commander in Chief of the Armed Forces, elected by the people of the United States. This LtCol, is a commissioned officer in the armed forces of the united states. Sworn to serve, and has a duty to perform. Period. There is no more to it.
And he does need to be hung out to try. Hell, he should be crucified (metaphorically speaking) This type of horsecrap cannot be tolerated in the military. The military is NOT a democracy. They need to make an example out of him because attitudes are contagious. Bad ones unchecked can undermine morale of entire units. Nobody should EVER follow this guys example.
Bubblehead1980
08-11-10, 07:12 PM
I understand your view and most people who have been in the military share that view.Honestly I mostly agree with you. but have some empathy since he is standing up for what he believes in and it concerns Obama.Obama may not have directly ordered him but his order for more troops prompted the order and he feels strongly that obama really has no right to do so.
I am by no means a birther but I feel some shady business was involved with the whole birth certificate thing.I want to see his original birth certificate, not a certified copy or some short form kept in state archives.The one I've seen just looks too new and clean to be almost 50 years old. My mother kept my original birth certificate, where is his? They never explained. I am not a birther though, he unfortunately prob is a citizen, wouldve been nice if he wasnt, he wouldnt have even made it into office.Anyway, that is beside the point.
The Captain feels so strong about this, he is willing to risk his military career, I feel he should be let out on admin discharge and sent on his way, no need to go overboard.I do agree he has no place in the military since he can't follow orders apparently.
Platapus
08-11-10, 07:20 PM
Since when does motivation mitigate the sentence for commiting a crime?
I don't care if the Virgin Mary sent him a tweet asking him not to go.
He took an oath of military service upon his honour and he broke it. This man has no personal honour.
He had no problems accepting all the benefits of being a commissioned officer, but when he got orders to deploy to a war zone, all of a sudden he has moral issues? :nope:
The military does not work that way and can't work that way. I see nothing in this case that would be a rational for him getting an administrative discharge and keep his military benefits. :nope:
Besides, as I posted before, I doubt this has anything to do with Obama and everything to do with cowardice. He is just trying to elicit sympathy and distract the issue by using Obama as an excuse.
We all know that you don't like Obama, and that's your right. But does your dislike for Obama truly cloud your interpretation of this case?
Would you have had the same position if this happened under Bush during the Invasion of Iraq?
Ducimus
08-11-10, 07:24 PM
but have some empathy since he is standing up for what he believes in and it concerns Obama
No he's not. He's either a coward, or he's placed his own personal political opinions ahead of his sworn duty to country, and to his comrades. Turning his back on both for personal reasons. That is NOT deserving of empathy. If Obama was really an issue he should have resigned his commison awhile ago as Platapus stated.
... he is standing up for what he believes in and it concerns Obama.
His time to speak up and resign was January 2008. Waiting until he gets orders to move to a combat zone shows his true motivation. I seriously doubt he received no orders between Jan '08 and when he refused to go to Afghanistan. If he believed those orders were invalid, why didn't he speak up then?
UnderseaLcpl
08-11-10, 08:23 PM
Just because everything has been said doesn't mean I can't up my post count:DL
Also, I'd kick his ass.
I'm slightly torn on this.This guy is standing up for what he believes in and can't blame him, taking orders from someone like Obama is blah.Then again, he's in the military and his job is to obey lawful orders of those above him, he doesnt need to be hung out to dry because he spoke up.an admin discharge would be fine.
That person is not standing up for what he believes in. Obama didn't start the war in Afghanistan, nor is Obama personally ordering this guy to go.
No, this filthy coward is using the birther controversy to try to weasel out of his commitment and I want to see him sent to Leavenworth at least.
Sailor Steve
08-11-10, 11:11 PM
I'm slightly torn on this.This guy is standing up for what he believes in and can't blame him, taking orders from someone like Obama is blah.Then again, he's in the military and his job is to obey lawful orders of those above him, he doesnt need to be hung out to dry because he spoke up.an admin discharge would be fine.
Yes, he does need to be "hung out" because he spoke up. A military officer doesn't get to pick and chose.
888. ART. 88. CONTEMPT TOWARD OFFICIALS
Any commissioned officer who uses contemptuous words against the President, the Vice president, Congress, the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of a military department, the Secretary of Transportation, or the Governor or legislature of any State, Territory, commnwealth, or possession in which he is on duty or present shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.
http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/ucmj.htm
You keep letting your personal bias get in the way of your judgement and your grasp of facts.
Bubblehead1980
08-12-10, 01:20 AM
I'm not arguing what he did is right, just saying I don't think he should be hung out to dry.A discharge and send him home would be plenty in my opinion.
Tribesman
08-12-10, 03:30 AM
A discharge and send him home would be plenty in my opinion.
Rewarding criminal action, what a great idea.
Castout
08-12-10, 05:02 AM
No he's not. He's either a coward, or he's placed his own personal political opinions ahead of his sworn duty to country, and to his comrades. Turning his back on both for personal reasons. That is NOT deserving of empathy. If Obama was really an issue he should have resigned his commison awhile ago as Platapus stated.
Agree.
I wonder how good is the President's command of Indonesian (language)? Better than my English?:hmmm:
AVGWarhawk
08-12-10, 10:15 AM
I'm not arguing what he did is right, just saying I don't think he should be hung out to dry.A discharge and send him home would be plenty in my opinion.
Welcome to..."he is being made an example."
The youtube vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea9JVnck_-E
Jimbuna
08-12-10, 10:35 AM
http://steynian.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/white-feather.jpg
Sailor Steve
08-12-10, 11:15 AM
I just watched the first minute or so of the video and had to shut it off. Razark hit it on the head:
If he really had a problem with Obama than he should have resigned his commission in Jan 2008.
Don't you mean January 2009?
My only disagreement is that he should have resigned in November 2008, the minute the results were in. Then it would have meant something.
The military is not a democrocy. An oath of office is required, and here's what it says:
"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God." (DA Form 71, 1 August 1959, for officers.)
Just in case there is any question, the oath of enlistment is much more specific:
"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God." (Title 10, US Code; Act of 5 May 1960 replacing the wording first adopted in 1789, with amendment effective 5 October 1962).
An officer is allowed - and even expected - to disobey orders when the order is determined by that officer to be illegal. But the officer must be willing to stand up in court and show that his disobedience was for the good of the service, and that the order itself was both illegal and bad. This covers only the order itself, not the person giving it. If an officer has a problem with a superior the time to take it up is when the problem becomes apparent, not a year-and-a-half later when said officer recieves an order he doesn't like.
There is no room for maneuvering here - this man is a criminal and a disgrace to his uniform and needs to be treated as such. At the very least a bad-conduct discharge is in order.
AVGWarhawk
08-12-10, 11:41 AM
There is no room for maneuvering here - this man is a criminal and a disgrace to his uniform and needs to be treated as such. At the very least a bad-conduct discharge is in order.
Nailed it Steve!!! :up:
Don't you mean January 2009?
:oops: Uhmmm... no more posting after the gin and tonics for me...
No, I don't. I expect that anyone capable of rising to such a rank in the military should have already demonstrated their abilities at predicting the future ten months in advance. Yeah, yeah! That's it!
I think he could have made his point by resigning anytime between the election and the inauguration.
By the way, that quote was not mine.
If he really had a problem with Obama than he should have resigned his commission in Jan 2008.
Platapus was just agreeing with me ahead of time. :D
Sailor Steve
08-12-10, 12:21 PM
No, I don't. I expect that anyone capable of rising to such a rank in the military should have already demonstrated their abilities at predicting the future ten months in advance. Yeah, yeah! That's it!
If you can't get it the way it was, come up with the way it should have been. :rock:
By the way, that quote was not mine.
Platapus was just agreeing with me ahead of time. :D
On the other hand, if I can't get it the way it was, I'll just come up with a good hangdog look and try for the sympathy card. :oops:
Platapus
08-12-10, 03:35 PM
The youtube vid:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ea9JVnck_-E
It is so nice when criminals confess on video. And best of all, no Article 31 concerns :yeah:
Platapus
08-12-10, 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by Platapus http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/smartdark/viewpost.gif (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?p=1465389#post1465389)
If he really had a problem with Obama than he should have resigned his commission in Jan 2008.
DOH! <facepalm> :oops:
Platapus
08-12-10, 03:38 PM
http://steynian.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/white-feather.jpg
:yep:
FIREWALL
08-12-10, 03:47 PM
I see it as, that in a country based on FREEDOM. He made a FREE choice and will have to pay the consequences.for it. Whatever that may be.
Besides who wants a COWARD holding a weapon behind them, covering their arse.
Platapus
08-12-10, 04:06 PM
I see it as, that in a country based on FREEDOM. He made a FREE choice and will have to pay the consequences.for it. Whatever that may be.
Besides who wants a COWARD holding a weapon behind them, covering their arse.
Well he is a doctor. So it should read "who wants a COWARD holding a rectal thermometer behind them, covering their arse." :D
FIREWALL
08-12-10, 04:09 PM
Well he is a doctor. So it should read "who wants a COWARD holding a rectal thermometer behind them, covering their arse." :D
:har: :up:
Well he is a doctor. So it should read "who wants a COWARD holding a rectal thermometer behind them, covering their arse." :D
Could this cowards patients count on him the same way they did with the doctor linked below did if the situation came down to it? Somehow I don't think so.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_L._Salomon
Bilge_Rat
08-12-10, 04:39 PM
Irrespective of whether the Birthers may or may not have an argument, Obama is still president and commander-in-chief until he is removed by the Supreme Court or Congress (assuming the unlikely event the birthers are right).
Many people did not accept Bush's election in 2000 as legitimate because of the irregularities (cough..fraud...cough) in Florida, but once he was sworn in, he was President until he left office.
You can't have citizens unilateraly deciding whether a sitting president is legitimate or not, that would lead to chaos. That has to be determined by the Courts and/or Congress in accordance with the procedure set out in the Constitution.
Tribesman
08-12-10, 05:30 PM
It is so nice when criminals confess on video.
Better ask a legal expert.....So Bubblehead???????
Irrespective of whether the Birthers may or may not have an argument
birthers = loony toon
Which is why when someone supports birther rubbish they always go....
I am by no means a birther but .....
So loony that even the people who believe it have to take a step back as its so crazy.
Sailor Steve
08-12-10, 10:21 PM
Many people did not accept Bush's election in 2000 as legitimate because of the irregularities (cough..fraud...cough).
Which fraud are you referring to?
NeonSamurai
08-13-10, 08:38 AM
Well he is a doctor. So it should read "who wants a COWARD holding a rectal thermometer behind them, covering their arse." :D
Well they usually are in the rear after all (with the gear).
Platapus
08-13-10, 02:46 PM
Well they usually are in the rear after all (with the gear).
In THE rear, or in YOUR rear? :o
Sailor Steve
08-13-10, 03:15 PM
I shall now bring new meaning to the old phrase:
DON'T GO THERE!
:rotfl2:
Jimbuna
08-13-10, 03:33 PM
Up north in the UK we say "it's a tunnel, not a funnel" :o
The Third Man
08-13-10, 03:35 PM
I would like to see a general court martial. Drag him through the ordeal.
Takeda Shingen
08-13-10, 03:36 PM
And SubSim hits a new low. :O:
Jimbuna
08-13-10, 04:20 PM
Up north in the UK we say "it's a tunnel, not a funnel" :o
Damn!!....wrong way around, "it's a funnel, not a funnel" :oops::DL
frau kaleun
08-13-10, 04:24 PM
Damn!!....wrong way around, "it's a funnel, not a funnel" :oops::DL
:hmmm:
Is this one of those "one hand clapping" thingies?
The Third Man
08-13-10, 04:30 PM
Obama doesn't want a court martial because it would require the introduction of evidence by the accused to defend his position.
I predict an honorable discharge.
Takeda Shingen
08-13-10, 04:31 PM
:hmmm:
Is this one of those "one hand clapping" thingies?
Yes! Been dying to pull this one up again:
http://www.tweak3d.net/forums/imagehosting/12254a885fadccc3b.gif
EDIT: Dang. You said one hand clapping. I like this gif anyway.
frau kaleun
08-13-10, 04:37 PM
Obama doesn't want a court martial because it would require the introduction of evidence by the accused to defend his position.
As has already been noted many times in this thread, his position is indefensible. He's a serving officer in the US military. He can believe what he likes about Obama but he cannot disobey an order that is not, in and of itself, illegal.
His orders do not come from the President!
His Commanding Officer and the Department of the Army are the ones who ordered him to Afghanistan, not the President of the United States.
POTUS would never be called to his coming Courts Martial because as he is not the one whose orders were disobeyed.
Is this too complicated a concept for you to understand?
The Third Man
08-13-10, 04:54 PM
His orders do not come from the President!
His Commanding Officer and the Department of the Army are the ones who ordered him to Afghanistan, not the President of the United States.
POTUS would never be called to his coming Courts Martial because as he is not the one whose orders were disobeyed.
Is this too complicated a concept for you to understand?
But his questioning Mr. Obama's right to be president was the basis of his argument . To be prosecuted, even under the uniform code of justice, allows a person to bring and supeana evidense.
frau kaleun
08-13-10, 05:00 PM
But his questioning Mr. Obama's right to be president was the basis of his argument . To be prosecuted, even under the uniform code of justice, allows a person to bring and supeana evidense.
Who the President is when the order is given is irrelevant. He has an obligation to do his duty. And from what I've read he didn't seem to have a problem doing it under Obama's administration until he got ordered into a combat zone. Convenient, no?
But his questioning Mr. Obama's right to be president was the basis of his argument . To be prosecuted, even under the uniform code of justice, allows a person to bring and supeana evidense.
And if that is the sole basis of his argument it will be a short trial. He disobeyed the orders of his immediate Commanding Officer. That is all the Court will need to put this guy in Leavenworth where he belongs.
The Third Man
08-13-10, 05:04 PM
Who the President is when the order is given is irrelevant.
Sounds good. But it isn't the law. If the President isn't the president by law, which is the man's contention. Then what?
Who the President is when the order is given is irrelevant. He has an obligation to do his duty. And from what I've read he didn't seem to have a problem doing it under Obama's administration until he got ordered into a combat zone. Convenient, no?
Darn convenient and very telling too. If Obama ordered him to go to Afghanistan then he also ordered him to do every other order this coward has obeyed since Obama was elected. What's the difference between all those and this one?
The answer is cowardice, pure and simple.
frau kaleun
08-13-10, 05:24 PM
Darn convenient and very telling too. If Obama ordered him to go to Afghanistan then he also ordered him to do every other order this coward has obeyed since Obama was elected. What's the difference between all those and this one?
The answer is cowardice, pure and simple.
It certainly seems to look that way. But I don't even care if it is.
I have no doubt that there were fine men and women serving in the armed forces under Bush who may have had doubts about the whole election fiasco that happened back then... and if one of them had pulled something like this, some of the rightwing blowhards would've been screaming bloody murder over it. Good grief, I can remember when just openly disagreeing with administration policy as a private citizen could get you branded a traitor.
Some things are above politics. I've never served in uniform but even I understand that. You accept a commission, you take the oath, you DO YOUR DUTY. Period. If nothing else you do it for the people serving next to you and if that doesn't count for something then maybe you chose the wrong profession.
This is like... a cop refusing to respond to call for backup because he doesn't like the new police commissioner and thinks there's something shady about how he got the job. It is beyond unacceptable and there is no honor in it.
krashkart
08-13-10, 05:51 PM
I'll add something my Dad once told me about the military:
"You are government property from the time you sign up to the time you leave"
He went on to say that you follow orders: you go where you are told when you are told to do so; you do what you are told to do, when your are told to do so, etc. Sounded pretty harsh to a kid that preferred to kick around the boonies daydreaming all afternoon.
"What?? They won't let me do what I wanna do?" :o
"No, son. And they will not ask you to do something. They tell you. And you do it! Now mow the lawn." :stare:
Jimbuna
08-14-10, 08:36 AM
Darn convenient and very telling too. If Obama ordered him to go to Afghanistan then he also ordered him to do every other order this coward has obeyed since Obama was elected. What's the difference between all those and this one?
The answer is cowardice, pure and simple.
Time for another one of these:
http://steynian.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/white-feather.jpg
krashkart
08-14-10, 08:48 AM
I'm lost. :06:
frau kaleun
08-14-10, 11:15 AM
I'm lost. :06:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather
Platapus
08-14-10, 12:22 PM
Anyone read the book "the Four Feathers" or seen the movie?
Sailor Steve
08-14-10, 12:34 PM
Anyone read the book "the Four Feathers" or seen the movie?
Which version? There have been six. I prefer the 1939 one myself.
Jimbuna
08-14-10, 03:20 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather
Correct frau....and this is the context I meant it in:
A white feather has been a traditional symbol of cowardice, used and recognised especially within the British Army and in countries associated with the British Empire since the 18th century.
Platapus
08-14-10, 03:21 PM
Which version? There have been six. I prefer the 1939 one myself.
Good point and not all of them have been good. :nope:
Jimbuna
08-14-10, 03:21 PM
Anyone read the book "the Four Feathers" or seen the movie?
I have the 2002 version in my film library.....pretty good actually.
http://uk.imdb.com/title/tt0240510/
krashkart
08-14-10, 05:01 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_feather
Correct frau....and this is the context I meant it in:
A white feather has been a traditional symbol of cowardice, used and recognised especially within the British Army and in countries associated with the British Empire since the 18th century.
Got it now. Thank you. :up:
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