Capital ships in convoys???

[K-61]

I bagged HMS Rodney from a convoy in my previous GWX Gold patrol. She was travelling in the middle of the convoy, doing six knots. In real life, this would be suicide. Most warships, especially large ships like cruisers, battleships and carriers could do well above a U-boat's top speed surfaced. To place them within the convoy perimeter would force them to travel well below a safe speed.

I know it was a practice to occasionally sail major warships with a convoy to guard it against the predations of surface raiders like Graf Spee or Bismarck. I just don't think the Admiralty would tell them to sail within the convoy's perimeter. An escort could as easily protect the convoy by sailing outside the convoy, but still maintain a higher speed and zigzag to avoid torpedo attack.

What do you folks say on the subject? Do you think the SH3 way of simulating warship escort is realistic? I intend to "ignore" further occurences of this type, as a concession to what I feel is unrealistic. I'd appreciate any definitive references on the subject. I've read of accounts where convoys had major warship escort, but nothing specific as to how the convoy was escorted. I think the Admiralty would keelhaul a battleship commander who lost his ship when he was sailing inside a convoy rather than making speed outside the convoy.

[timmy41]

they did that in real life
the convoys were threatened by raiders and warships
they didnt have enough escorts to go around and had to resort to battlecruisers and battleships

are we sure that they have the range to go at max speed zigzagging the whole way across the atlantic?

[K-61]

I know that they were in the area of threatened convoys. I just haven't seen anything definitive about them being inside the convoy itself. Major warships had their own ASW screen with them at all times, as far as I know. In fact, the dedicated ASW escorts for major warships was one reason why convoy escorts were in short supply for the first couple of years of the war.

[Alpha Von Burg]

I was using the warship mod (WSM 3.0) when I engaged the convoy with Rodney in it. Rodney was at 6 knots and as I closed in with my battleship, the escorts, excluding Rodney turned to engage me. After destroying all it's escorts I went for the rest of the convoy leaving Rodney. After sinking every in the convoy I engaged Rodney, and for some reason Rodney didn't enter any manner of alert, it was still going at 6 knots, I was literally circling it.

I engaged it for nearly 3 hours, in the end I had to pull out due to low ammunition and damage.

[papa_smurf]

I nearly bagged HMS Renown last night, but was chased off :damn:

[HW3]

Go here and listen to Jurgen Oesten discribe his encounter with a convoy from Freetown with HMS Malaya guarding it.
http://silenthunteriii.com/uk/videos.php

[K-61]

Thanks, HW3!

[Alpha Von Burg]

I found a Revenge class battleship in the middle of a convoy just south of Folkestone and I think west of Boulogne, October -- 1939, heading south-west, going along the Channel. I have 2 fore torps, no fore reserves, 1 str torp and 1 str reserve.

I fire all my fore torps, 1 hit and the other disappeared. I fire my str torp, it too disappeares. I had to bug out.

The only thing I succeded was in damaging the battleship. :damn:

Now, I'm left with 1 str torpedo, 1 external str torpedo, 1 external fore torpedo and a bunch of fuel. :damn:

:damn::damn: so close:damn::damn:

[K-61]

Just now finished watching the video. Osten does not definitively state that Malaya was inside the convoy, but he did state that she was "with the convoy." That sounds pretty much like she was inside the convoy, but left it at night. Hmmm. I'll have to reconsider my opinion. :salute:

[K-61]

I found a Revenge class battleship in the middle of a convoy just south of Folkestone and I think west of Boulogne, October -- 1939, heading south-west, going along the Channel. I have 2 fore torps, no fore reserves, 1 str torp and 1 str reserve.

I fire all my fore torps, 1 hit and the other disappeared. I fire my str torp, it too disappeares. I had to bug out.

The only thing I succeded was in damaging the battleship. :damn:

Now, I'm left with 1 str torpedo, 1 external str torpedo, 1 external fore torpedo and a bunch of fuel. :damn:

:damn::damn: so close:damn::damn:

Tough luck. It did happen. Although in the game you do not get renown for damaging ships, in real life such an attack did have consequences of value to the war effort. Listening to Osten's account, above, Malaya was sent to New York for 3/4 of a year. That's nine months she was not available for missions and tying up precious dockyard space and shipyard workers who could otherwise be employed. Surely that is still a valuable result, but not as satisfactory as a sinking?

What happened to your target? Did it reduce speed? I've found in my gaming that I don't always get a sinking with the first attack, but enough damage is inflicted to force the ship to reduce speed and fall behind the convoy. Even better, she loses all steam and sits there like a sleeping duck, making for an easy kill shot once you survive the counterattack of the angry escorts.

[Alpha Von Burg]

...Although in the game you do not get renown for damaging ships...

I know...
not getting the renown was not the frustrating part, it was the fact that I didn't sink it.

[Herr-Berbunch]

I've yet to come across any capital ships or carriers, am I looking in the right place, the big wet area in the middle?

That said, I do tend to avoid the things that fight back, but if I ever do get the opportunity I will.. :yep:

[frau kaleun]

I've yet to come across any capital ships or carriers, am I looking in the right place, the big wet area in the middle?

That said, I do tend to avoid the things that fight back, but if I ever do get the opportunity I will.. :yep:

Don't know what date you're playing at, but if you hang about in or around the fjord that forms the approach to Narvik during the Battle of Norway, it's a good bet you'll encounter something interesting.

My only capital ship so far was the Warspite and I got her there.

Funny thing was, I think she's the only capital ship I've spotted this career. Intercepted a task force she was in, west of Scotland, a couple of months into the war and even got a shot at her but everything missed.

She also turned up in the middle of a northern bound convoy coming out of Freetown, about two months after I sank her in the Vestfjord. I left her alone that time, I ain't messin' with no ghost ship. :O:

[Herr-Berbunch]

OK, next time I restart a career I'll make sure to head up to Norway early '40. I usually avoid that way on, maybe that's why I never meet them? :hmmm:

[frau kaleun]

At some point in late March or early April, IIRC, there's radio message about British task forces leaving Britain and believed to be heading east to prepare for invasion/defense of Norway. That's the first indication I remember that things up there are about to get interesting.

Once German operations in Norway are underway (or close to it), you start getting messages about proceeding to defend Narvik or Trondheim or whatever. You can consider them merely "immersive" or obey the "orders" and put yourself into the middle of things.

I think at some point there's another message that releases u-boats back to their previously assigned patrols.

[Convycmg]

Wow. Great insight into the surreality of war from the Jurgen Oesten video. 'Thanks for torpedoing us and giving us a 9-month break in New York'!

As for what could be gleaned about the position of the battleship in the convoy, nothing definite but Oesten did seem to say he was targeting the convoy when he decided to fire at the 'shadow' that looked like it might be the Malaya.

That's another thing I think I came across at precisely the wrong time personally though, in light of my plodding attempts at manual targeting. Er, range; speed, stopwatch for 3.15 oh !*@$ it's a completely different ship than I'd ID'd it earlier what has that done to the range... AOB, ugh, Jawohl Herr Kaleun, solution to target. Compare to: Ja, we saw this shadow that didn't look much like a merchant so we fired at it... at least he didn't sink her!! :damn:

[K-61]

At some point in late March or early April, IIRC, there's radio message about British task forces leaving Britain and believed to be heading east to prepare for invasion/defense of Norway. That's the first indication I remember that things up there are about to get interesting.

Once German operations in Norway are underway (or close to it), you start getting messages about proceeding to defend Narvik or Trondheim or whatever. You can consider them merely "immersive" or obey the "orders" and put yourself into the middle of things.

I think at some point there's another message that releases u-boats back to their previously assigned patrols.

That is exactly what happened to me on my last patrol. I was outbound from Wilhelmshaven in my VIIB to my Atlantic patrol area when I got a message to sail north to protect Narvik. A British task force passed somewhat near to the north of me, but just a bit too far to intercept. I tried anyway and all I got for it was the consumption of precious fuel. I made it to the Narvik area, saw a few German warships but no enemy. I then received the message to return to my patrol, which I did and was rewarded with a convoy battle.

[danzig70]

You may want to read:

Edwards, B. (1997) Attack and Sink: the Battle for Convoy SC42. New Guild.

Hague, A. (2000) The Allied Convoy System. Chatham Publishing.

I havent read them but they look interesting.

[Hans Uberman]

T'was not the real HMS Rodney, but a reverse Q-Ship! Surprise! That battleship was really an near-empty merchant with cardboard sides!

Okay, I kid. I too, sunk the Rodney just south of Brighton, under very similar circumstances. It was going about 6kts in my encounter as well. Quite odd.

[Pisces]

At some point in late March or early April, IIRC, there's radio message about British task forces leaving Britain and believed to be heading east to prepare for invasion/defense of Norway. That's the first indication I remember that things up there are about to get interesting.
Oh great, I just finished my patrol on April 1st 1940. There goes my R&R. Talk about April Fools'. :damn:

[CherryHarbey]

Oh great, I just finished my patrol on April 1st 1940. There goes my R&R. Talk about April Fools'. :damn:
Yep, you're going to be back out pretty sharpish if you using SH3 Commander.
I finished my last patrol 6th April 1940, was back out 12th April and that included a day to repair 1% hull damage and a couple of days to upgrade the batteries.

[Jimbuna]

It was often the case that a BB and close escort would shadow a convoy from a distance during the day but during the night they would on occasion rejoin the convoy because it was felt the BB would be less vulnerable to torpedo attack during the hours of darkness when surrounded by merchantmens hulls......the accompanying escort would then bolster up the convoy escort.

The usually heavy AA weaponry was also useful to help in cases of attack from the air.

[HW3]

I have a video of Jurgen Oesten telling about attacking a convoy from Freetown, accompanied by the old Battleship Malaya, in U-106 with U-105. He states that the Malaya was inside the convoy during the day, using its plane to hunt for u-boats, and left at night for the first 5 days they attacked. Once they had sunk a number of ships, the Malaya didn't leave the convoy one night. Jurgen said he was unaware it hadn't left the convoy when he attacked with the last of his torpedoes, and put one into the Malaya, damaging it, and causing it to travel to New York for repairs.

:salute:

[Alpha Von Burg]

Just hours ago, I was patroling the north atlantic when I came about a convoy with a capitan ship in the middle, HMS Nelson. Luckly for me, this convoy only had that one battleship and 1 destroyer.

Got rid of the destroyer and targeted the BB. I had to use magnetic because I was shooting at an angle, this would also probably explain why it took me 4-6 torps to sink it.

Really lucky if you ask me to have found a convoy with a capitan ship in the middle and only 1 destroyer escort.

[Jimbuna]

Extremely lucky http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[iambecomelife]

It was often the case that a BB and close escort would shadow a convoy from a distance during the day but during the night they would on occasion rejoin the convoy because it was felt the BB would be less vulnerable to torpedo attack during the hours of darkness when surrounded by merchantmens hulls......the accompanying escort would then bolster up the convoy escort.

The usually heavy AA weaponry was also useful to help in cases of attack from the air.

Correct. After the loss of "HMS Edinburgh" and "HMS Trinidad", when heavy units escorted the convoy it was common practice for them to sail at a high speed to avoid the enemy - maybe 16-18 knots - and make "S" turns so that they didn't take themselves too far from the convoy. This reveals a weakness of the SH3 campaign engine - it does not allow for complex escort behaviors, variable speeds, or breakup/merging of individual units in a convoy.

[maillemaker]

Correct. After the loss of "HMS Edinburgh" and "HMS Trinidad", when heavy units escorted the convoy it was common practice for them to sail at a high speed to avoid the enemy - maybe 16-18 knots - and make "S" turns so that they didn't take themselves too far from the convoy. This reveals a weakness of the SH3 campaign engine - it does not allow for complex escort behaviors, variable speeds, or breakup/merging of individual units in a convoy.

I agree. The AI of the ships is rather primitive. I should never be able to surface in an unarmed convoy and deck-gun ship after ship after ship. They should either scatter or try to ram me.

The other thing that I wish had been better attended to is the modeling of the physical interaction of the u-boat with the water. I would like to see water sluicing around railing stanchions, or even just the conning tower.

Steve

[iambecomelife]

I agree. The AI of the ships is rather primitive. I should never be able to surface in an unarmed convoy and deck-gun ship after ship after ship. They should either scatter or try to ram me.

The other thing that I wish had been better attended to is the modeling of the physical interaction of the u-boat with the water. I would like to see water sluicing around railing stanchions, or even just the conning tower.

Steve

I'll never forget playing "Sub Battle" by EPYX (one of my first two computer games) back in 1992 and having a convoy scatter after I sank both of its escorts. VERY impressive AI for an old, single floppy disk game. There's no reason why this can't be implemented in a modern simulator.

[K-61]

I'll never forget playing "Sub Battle" by EPYX (one of my first two computer games) back in 1992 and having a convoy scatter after I sank both of its escorts. VERY impressive AI for an old, single floppy disk game. There's no reason why this can't be implemented in a modern simulator.

Agreed. It is too bad that the programmers of SH3 couldn't model more complex behaviour. In my opinion, they were pressured by executive types to hurry up and get it out the door and thus could not model everything they would have liked. There's no way the admiralty would place a battleship inside a convoy and only have one ASW escort. One reason why the U-boats had a happy time was that many of the vessels capable of ASW work were dedicated to battleships and carriers or protecting home waters against a Sealion landing operation. Because of game limitations, I will no longer attack capital ships sailing inside the convoy perimeter, notwithstanding Jurgen Osten's account, which was exceptional. I will have no qualms about attacking BB's or CV's sailing in their own task forces at high speeds and have had success at nailing both types in such a manner.

[Gerald]

Agreed. It is too bad that the programmers of SH3 couldn't model more complex behaviour. In my opinion, they were pressured by executive types to hurry up and get it out the door and thus could not model everything they would have liked. There's no way the admiralty would place a battleship inside a convoy and only have one ASW escort. One reason why the U-boats had a happy time was that many of the vessels capable of ASW work were dedicated to battleships and carriers or protecting home waters against a Sealion landing operation. Because of game limitations, I will no longer attack capital ships sailing inside the convoy perimeter, notwithstanding Jurgen Osten's account, which was exceptional. I will have no qualms about attacking BB's or CV's sailing in their own task forces at high speeds and have had success at nailing both types in such a manner. and it is OK to hunt like that "also, only one is tightened,
http://imgur.com/TYsew.jpg

[Zedwardson]

Yes, they are occasionally there to deal with surface raiders, I encountered one, but the escorts had a line on me so we had to spend a lot of time 100 meters and rolling with the charges, and had to haul it out of that place.


I have sunk two Capital ships, one was the H.M.S. Ramillies, which I got with a sniper shot at 10,000 meters as i was in the right place at the right time as I was run over by a task force at night in a storm. (I had lucked out and had a four shot type I loaded up.). And last night I sunk the hood after sneaking into port, but didn't make it out.

Now the hood has gotten away a half dozen times from my captains, so it was very therapeutic to get a clean four shot spread with four hits.

[Gerald]

HMS Ramillies

http://imgur.com/S3TG4.jpg


:yep:

[Jimbuna]

HMS Ramillies

http://imgur.com/S3TG4.jpg


:yep:

Bless her memory :salute:


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Ramillies_(07)

[Zedwardson]

In real life she was a tough old bird who fought two world wars. :salute:

[brendan]

Ran into my first big convoy of the career on the rockall bank. It had the Nelson right in the center of it. Sank her with 3 torpedoes and no trouble from the corvette escorts. I waited near her as the convoy moved away and watched her sink from the periscope. Then I paused
The game and came back to a crash to desktop.

[Alpha Von Burg]

Have found another convoy with a Capitan ship in the middle, only this time, the only escorts present was the Capitan ship itself...

[CherryHarbey]

Ran into my first big convoy of the career on the rockall bank. It had the Nelson right in the center of it. Sank her with 3 torpedoes and no trouble from the corvette escorts. I waited near her as the convoy moved away and watched her sink from the periscope. Then I paused
The game and came back to a crash to desktop.

I ran into HMS Nelson in a similar way, closer to the Irish coast. I only had two torps left so I needed to make them count. Let the escorts pass me by, came back up to periscope in between the convoy columns and gave her both torps from just over 1000m. Didn't have the guts to watch the fireworks through the periscope though, as I dived straight after firing.
No external view for me, so no screenshots I'm afraid but it sounded great on the hydrophones. Mulitple explosions, so I must have hit a magazine.