Made in China

[Moeceefus]

China's carrier killers. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100805/ap_on_re_as/as_china_us_carrier_killer

[papa_smurf]

Could be an end to the USA's carrier dominance. We can help tho, all they have to do is purchase some Type 45's from us:D

[Raptor1]

Eh, didn't long range anti-ship missiles with enough accuracy to hit single ships exist for decades already?

[Oberon]

The Kitchen ASM comes to mind, as well as our friends the Stallion, Sunburn, and Shipwreck. All of which could pose a concern to a carrier group, particularly if swarm launched.

Still, Jack Ryan will be along in a bit to give us the low down on what makes the Dong Feng so special. :salute:

EDIT: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRp_mVi969I

Wait...wait a minute...

The Dong Feng is a ballistic missile? :o:stare::doh::nope:

[Raptor1]

The Dong Feng is a ballistic missile? :o:stare::doh::nope:

Well, that explains a lot.

Though I don't think it's as much as an ultimate CVBG-killing weapon as they make it out to be. It is completely dependent on satellites for guidance, and it's bound to be less reliable than usual ASMs at least at this point. There are also ways to shoot down a ballistic missile from a ship nowadays, so a CVBG is not completely defenceless against it.

[Oberon]

Indeed, the AEGIS system can hit a Ballistic missile IIRC, so the CVBG has that covered, unless of course they employ the same techniques as the Soviets would have with their ASMs (what do we call the Dong Feng anyway...an ASBM?) and swarm launch them. AEGIS could take out four or five but one or two would still get through and from the angle of approach they would screw the flight deck if they hit, thus putting the carrier out of useful action.

Not an all powerful weapon, but still an interesting approach to the problem of circumnavigating CVBG defences.

[TLAM Strike]

I see Oberon triggered the TLAM Signal again... :03:

Yes the DF is a Ballistic missile.

Raptor1 is on the right track, it has limitations.

But it is still a little better than conventional air or ship launched missiles. For example its range is fantastic. There are only a few weapons that can engage it- all the fighters and "normal" SAMs in the CSG have no ABM capability. Physical decoys can be carried in large numbers perhaps dozens. Finally its launchers are well hidden and out of range of attack.

Its disadvantages include that it must be radar guided. Its screaming though the atmosphere so its going to get real hot precluding use of an IR seeker. I disagree with Raptor1 on that it needs a Satellite for guidance, a radar emitter could be included in each warhead. OTH targeting is a requirement- shoot that down (Plane or Sat) and these missiles are useless.

EDIT: Yes DF is an ASBM ;)

[HundertzehnGustav]

Scheiiiissseeee!!!!!:timeout:
Alaaaarrmmm!!!

wheres them new US lazer Gunz?

[UnderseaLcpl]

Ok, here's a question from the comms guy:

If the Dong Thing has on-board radar guidance, and it's target is a fast ship surrounded by other ships that have nuclear power plants on board, wouldn't the simplest solution be to just render it unguided by using EMI? Barrage jamming from multiple sources if the Dang Thang has a freq-hopper. I would think that with the power those nukes must put out, you could jam Spaceball One from here.

[Sailor Steve]

...the Dong Thing...
"Captain, they shot a Dong Thing at us!"

"We're humped..."

[frau kaleun]

"Captain, they shot a Dong Thing at us!"

"We're humped..."

Is this where all those little u-boats with or without periscopes come from?

I always thought Onkel Karl found them in his cabbage patch.

[TLAM Strike]

Scheiiiissseeee!!!!!:timeout:
Alaaaarrmmm!!!

wheres them new US lazer Gunz? Well if the warhead is spinning like a football (a proper American football) the laser becomes less effective. There is also the possibility of the PRC mounting some sort of ablative armor on the warhead.

Ok, here's a question from the comms guy:

If the Dong Thing has on-board radar guidance, and it's target is a fast ship surrounded by other ships that have nuclear power plants on board, wouldn't the simplest solution be to just render it unguided by using EMI? Barrage jamming from multiple sources if the Dang Thang has a freq-hopper. I would think that with the power those nukes must put out, you could jam Spaceball One from here. Possible, very possible in fact.

Playing the PRC side here, there are a few possible counter measures. Big olde Numuro Uno in my book is home on jam. Only nuc surface ships in the USN are Carriers. If the carrier is the one jamming and the attacking weapon has HOJ capability its kind of self defeating. If its the CG and DDGs jamming those get taken out and the next wave of Dong Thongs kills the carrier.

[frau kaleun]

Well if the warhead is spinning like a football (a proper American football) the laser becomes less effective. There is also the possibility of the PRC mounting some sort of ablative armor on the warhead.

Possible, very possible in fact.

Playing the PRC side here, there are a few possible counter measures. Big olde Numuro Uno in my book is home on jam. Only nuc surface ships in the USN are Carriers. If the carrier is the one jamming and the attacking weapon has HOJ capability its kind of self defeating. If its the CG and DDGs jamming those get taken out and the next wave of Dong Thongs kills the carrier.

Sorry, I think we've moved on to dong jokes now, a move of which I heartily approve, since pretty much everything else in this thread makes me feel like a monkey looking at the back of a watch. :O:

[TLAM Strike]

Sorry, I think we've moved on to dong jokes now, a move of which I heartily approve, since pretty much everything else in this thread makes me feel like a monkey looking at the back of a watch. :O:

Hay I said Dong Thong in my post. Doesn't that count as a funny? :03:

[frau kaleun]

Hay I said Dong Thong in my post. Doesn't that count as a funny? :03:

That was the only thing I understood! :wah:

It's a banana hammock that gives you a wedgie, amirite?

Edit: I predict that if this thread goes on long enough, "Dong Thing" will morph completely into "King Kong," at which point someone will log in after a prolonged absence, read the last couple of posts, and think the OP was talking about the Chinese military breeding giant killer water-gorillas.

[TLAM Strike]

Dong Thong...
That was the only thing I understood! :wah:
^This is why women make bad scientists and engineers. :03:
How can you expect to be respected in the world if you don't know about the terminal ballistics of frequency hopping inverse modular axial interference field emitters and their relation to a electromagnetic focus compensator matrix.
:O:

It's a banana hammock that gives you a wedgie, amirite? Its a banana hammock worn the wrong way around. :D

[frau kaleun]

How can you expect to be respected in the world if you don't know about the terminal ballistics of frequency hopping inverse modular axial interference field emitters and their relation to a electromagnetic focus compensator matrix

:hmmm:

I'm on a horse.




Furthermore, I think Carthage must be destroyed.

[AVGWarhawk]

Well the article said it was accurate up to 900 miles. Keep the carrier at 901 miles from the launch site. :03:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Possible, very possible in fact.

Playing the PRC side here, there are a few possible counter measures. Big olde Numuro Uno in my book is home on jam. Only nuc surface ships in the USN are Carriers. If the carrier is the one jamming and the attacking weapon has HOJ capability its kind of self defeating. If its the CG and DDGs jamming those get taken out and the next wave of Dong Thongs kills the carrier.

Then we simply tow smaller deployable arrays behind the escorts on the outside of the formation! We could put one behind the carrier, too. Jeez, do I have to think of everything?:O: Granted, we'd lose effective radiated power to some degree with that setup, and the smaller engines* on the escorts would cost us wattage, but it should still be enough to light up the Ding Dong's scope (which I presume would have a comparitively small power supply, being as how it's on a missile and all).

*I thought we had CGNs, at least. Did something happen to those?

[Oberon]

Did someone say Kong?

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_z2d4IxltHJI/SbLuBstL-SI/AAAAAAAAAlc/iO77xi7AhFc/s400/VAHALLA_01.jpg

[Gerald]

Sea Combat.The Dong Feng 21A and launcher vehicle are displayed at the Beijing Military Museum. China is reportedly working on developing the world's first antiship ballistic missile based on a similar design.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2010/08/06/chinese-carrier-killer-missile-game-changer-expert-says/

[Platapus]

AEGIS could take out four or five but one or two would still get through and from the angle of approach they would screw the flight deck if they hit, thus putting the carrier out of useful action.

Not an all powerful weapon, but still an interesting approach to the problem of circumnavigating CVBG defences.

Even if the ASBM is equipped with the smallest warhead, 100Kt will do more than screw up a flight deck.

Remember, what 15 Kt did to Hiroshima.

This is something to be concerned with. But like any other weapon system, it can be mitigated... given time, money, and focus.

[TLAM Strike]

Then we simply tow smaller deployable arrays behind the escorts on the outside of the formation! We could put one behind the carrier, too. Jeez, do I have to think of everything?:O: Granted, we'd lose effective radiated power to some degree with that setup, and the smaller engines* on the escorts would cost us wattage, but it should still be enough to light up the Ding Dong's scope (which I presume would have a comparitively small power supply, being as how it's on a missile and all).

*I thought we had CGNs, at least. Did something happen to those? Still... Home on Jamming. ;)
Just adjust forward of where the jamming is coming from if its less powerful than normal.

Also I just realized that the warhead needs to be guided by radar but the bomblets it drops do not. They could be designed to slow down and maneuver with air vanes and by guided by IR. The US has a weapon like that for taking out armor. :hmmm:

All the CGNs were broken up for scrap in the late 90s early 00s.

[Skybird]

Made in China? I am the proud owner of a Fenix P3D. Marvellous piece of equipment, ultrabright, and of highest manufacturing quality - beats most competing models in its class easily and hands down. But costs just a fraction of comparing items from western production. I love it! :O:

[Oberon]

Made in China? I am the proud owner of a Fenix P3D. Marvellous piece of equipment, ultrabright, and of highest manufacturing quality - beats most competing models in its class easily and hands down. But costs just a fraction of comparing items from western production. I love it! :O:

:doh: Communist spy!


Burn him!! :nope:

[Gerald]

:doh: Communist spy!


Burn him!! :nope: did in the Middle Ages :roll:

[Oberon]

did in the Middle Ages :roll:
Well, you didn't do a very good job, he's still here!

Wait...

He's a Communist witch?! :doh:

[Catfish]

He's a Communist witch?! :doh:

Believing all witches should fly the same broom - :O:

[TLAM Strike]

Believing all witches should fly the same broom - :O:
and that they should not use witchcraft for personal gain only for the benefit of the state and party. :DL

[Skybird]

:o
.
.
.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Still... Home on Jamming. ;)
Just adjust forward of where the jamming is coming from if its less powerful than normal.
That would be tricky, at best. You can blanket a really large area with EMI, as in hundreds of square miles. Even if they did somehow figure it out, we could just change up the fleet's formation at random intervals and randomize the power to the arrays. How would they ever know where the carrier was? All they or the missile would see would be a giant cloud of radiation with many bright spots, any one of which could be the carrier, or perhaps not.

Also I just realized that the warhead needs to be guided by radar but the bomblets it drops do not. They could be designed to slow down and maneuver with air vanes and by guided by IR. The US has a weapon like that for taking out armor. :hmmm:
I think you're confusing and combining IDPCM (Improved Dual-Purpose Conventional Munitions) with dedicated guided anti-tank munitions (which don't use bomlets), but I could be wrong. I haven't worked with such systems for a while now, and they may have come up with something new.. Typically, bomlets have not the space for guidance mechanisms, nor the need for them, because they are designed to saturate an area. Having a bunch of bomblets home in on the strongest IR radiation source is counterintuitve, since they'd all converge on the same place. Even if they did have such a thing, deploying a flare battery would work wonderfully.

Guided bomblets would be rendered ineffective for the reasons I stated, given proper TTPs. Such bomblets would probably hit some ship, if computerized compensation was used, but it wouldn't likely be the carrier.
Unguided bomlets would fare poorly against the same system because the launches could be detected in time to alert the fleet to begin changing course and speed at random. The radar on the missiles themselves would become useless at extremely high altitudes (and that's not counting relfection form the ionisphere), making for an extremely inaccurate bomblet-drop.

All the CGNs were broken up for scrap in the late 90s early 00s.
Darn. What motivated the decision? Operating costs? Well, it wouldn't matter anyway. Even conventional steam turbines are more than capable of generating enough excess power to throw up a really big EM signature.

[TLAM Strike]

That would be tricky, at best. You can blanket a really large area with EMI, as in hundreds of square miles. Even if they did somehow figure it out, we could just change up the fleet's formation at random intervals and randomize the power to the arrays. How would they ever know where the carrier was? All they or the missile would see would be a giant cloud of radiation with many bright spots, any one of which could be the carrier, or perhaps not. One missile communicates with the others and sorts the targets using its radar and the internal guidance on the other missiles. One goes for each bright spot. The SS-N-19 used a similar system.


I think you're confusing and combining IDPCM (Improved Dual-Purpose Conventional Munitions) with dedicated guided anti-tank munitions (which don't use bomlets), but I could be wrong. I haven't worked with such systems for a while now, and they may have come up with something new.. Typically, bomlets have not the space for guidance mechanisms, nor the need for them, because they are designed to saturate an area. Having a bunch of bomblets home in on the strongest IR radiation source is counterintuitve, since they'd all converge on the same place. Even if they did have such a thing, deploying a flare battery would work wonderfully. This is the SOB I'm talking about. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensor-fuzed_weapon)The CBU-97. It uses Submunitions (Mistakenly called them bomblets before) guided by IR and Lasers to locate its targets.

Guided bomblets would be rendered ineffective for the reasons I stated, given proper TTPs. Such bomblets would probably hit some ship, if computerized compensation was used, but it wouldn't likely be the carrier.
Unguided bomlets would fare poorly against the same system because the launches could be detected in time to alert the fleet to begin changing course and speed at random. The radar on the missiles themselves would become useless at extremely high altitudes (and that's not counting relfection form the ionisphere), making for an extremely inaccurate bomblet-drop. Didn't the Russians have Satellites that could target our carriers? Why didn't the ionosphere effect them?

Its very possible that a mid course or terminal course correction could be used. Instead of a cone shaped warhead like on a ICBM think of a small lifting body with control surfaces that can maneuver once its ditched its booster.


Darn. What motivated the decision? Operating costs? I believe so.

[Gerald]

a theoretical and practical,an opportunity to reach targets far from the Court itself,contemporary term, this is a Strategic Decisions of the few other parts of the world to believe or understand,We have resources, even if they do not intend to act.But to create the conditions for a countermeasure is that demands of the Allies.this links is only a example of Equipment of course, there are plenty if you have time, and make the right Decision,


http://www.computer.org/portal/web/csdl/doi/10.1109/iwia.2006.15

http://www.stratign.com/electronic_warfare.htm

[UnderseaLcpl]

One missile communicates with the others and sorts the targets using its radar and the internal guidance on the other missiles. One goes for each bright spot. The SS-N-19 used a similar system.
Could be a problem, depending on what wavelengths the Donkey Kong's radiation sensors can detect. A fleet of warships towing barrage-jamming decoys could generate enough noise to cover a lot of frequencies, including the missiles' comm frequencies.

As for that CBU-97..... damn Air Force always has nicer stuff than we do!:damn: It would take quite a bit of broad-spectrum jamming to counter such a thing, so let's hope the missiles don't have that.


Didn't the Russians have Satellites that could target our carriers? Why didn't the ionosphere effect them?
It depends upon whether the mechanism was active or passive, and what time of day it is. During the day, the ionosphere becomes charged with solar radiation, and it will reflect a good portion of the waves influenced by active systems like radar. At night, the effect is less noticeable, but still there. Odds are, though, they were affected. Maybe just not enough.

For active detection or communcications systems attempting to penetrate the ionosphere, this effect is multiplied in the presence of jamming because detection/communication systems have to send a signal twice the distance (there and back), and also deal with the scattering effect of an ionized field while jamming only has to hit the target, and then gets another chance when it bounces off the ionosphere, albeit with reduced signal strength.

If the satellites had radar sensors, there is also the possibility that their detection mechanisms were more powerful than what you could put on a ballistic missile. Also, they don't need to be as accurate.

That said, do you mean detecting or targetting? Targeted with what? I was under the impression that the Ruskies had no orbital weapons platforms, and if they did, the payload would likely be nuclear, so there's a lot more margin for error.

Its very possible that a mid course or terminal course correction could be used. Instead of a cone shaped warhead like on a ICBM think of a small lifting body with control surfaces that can maneuver once its ditched its booster. Even so, it needs guidance, and jamming is all about overriding any kind of electromagnetic signal. Flares can be used against IR, though it just occurred to me that a computer with a record of the thermal signature of a ship might just be able to see through them. I'm not sure, my area of expertise is limited to radio stuff. Even missiles guided by lasers from satellites might have trouble hitting a ship, given the variability of atomospheric refraction.

[TLAM Strike]

That said, do you mean detecting or targetting? Targeted with what? I was under the impression that the Ruskies had no orbital weapons platforms, and if they did, the payload would likely be nuclear, so there's a lot more margin for error. The Russians had sats that would locate and target our surface ships and transmit that to a Oscar. That is why the N-19 has such a long range.

BTW: Kinda OT but the Russians did have orbital weapons, they armed one of their space stations with defensive guns. The station was called Almaz.

Even so, it needs guidance, and jamming is all about overriding any kind of electromagnetic signal. Flares can be used against IR, though it just occurred to me that a computer with a record of the thermal signature of a ship might just be able to see through them. I'm not sure, my area of expertise is limited to radio stuff. Even missiles guided by lasers from satellites might have trouble hitting a ship, given the variability of atomospheric refraction. Makes me wonder how Image Reconnection sensors have progressed in the military. I remember talk years ago about missiles that can tell the difference between a SCUD launcher, a Tank, and a School Bus.

[Raptor1]

BTW: Kinda OT but the Russians did have orbital weapons, they armed one of their space stations with defensive guns. The station was called Almaz.


A single 23mm cannon hardly counts as an orbital doomsday platform. :O:

[TLAM Strike]

A single 23mm cannon hardly counts as an orbital doomsday platform. :O: Notice how I said defensive weapon. :DL

Anyways destruction all a question of relative velocity... :03: