In A Pickle

[gollum65]

Ok guys. I'm a fairly new SH4 captain so bear with me. I've got the latest versions of TMO and RSRDC installed and I'm literally on my first patrol of the war. I set out from Manila and went to the east side of Luzon and completed my first objective. On my way to the 2nd objective I came across what I thought was 1 IJN destroyer. I got into position and fired 2 torps at him, and while it looked like 1 hit through my periscope, I didn't get any confirmation of this from my crew.

But what I thought was 1 destroyer was actually 2 and they've got me pretty much pinned down. I'm only in about 130 feet of water with no thermal layer to hide under. The 2 boats keep circling over me and pinging away, and every once in a while they drop a few depth charges. I've yet to sustain any damage, so I guess I'm doing something right.

My question is how do I get away? If I read other posts on the forum correctly then when they're pinging they're not listening and I should maneuver then, but I can't always tell if both are pinging or just one? Usually it sounds like just 1. I can only do 1 knot if I go to 1/3 power and if I go any faster they seem to be able to zero in on me within seconds. I can't even turn fast enough to try to keep a slim profile towards one boat, much less both. And there may even be a 3rd boat inbound that my sonar seems to hear but I can't see yet. As soon as they stop pinging I stop my boat because I'm assuming they're then listening to see if they can hear me.

I've been at this 2 hours and haven't even made it a mile yet. I've got at least 5 miles to go before I get to any deeper water. I'm afraid to try any accelerated time as I'm sure they'll find and sink me before I even know they've found me.

Am I just stuck trying to sneak to deeper waters and if I make it then I can go deep? Am I doing this stuff wrong and therefore making it harder on myself? If I even make it to deep water will it be any easier to escape?

Thanks in advance.

[Major Johnson]

Sounds to me like you're doing everything right, but are you in silent running mode?? That's a definite must! As for wihich direction to go, I say, the fastest path to deep waters. As for if they can hear you when their pinging or not, if I understand correctly, when they are pinging, they are listening. I think you want to make whatever manuever you want to make, when they're not pinging. Supposedly when they stop pinging they could be making a depth charge run, as they can't ping and depth charge at the same time. And supposedly TM beefs up the destroyers, so it's tougher to escape them. Good luck.

And oh, you can use a little time compression to speed things along, but I wouldn't go higher than 32x until you know you're moving away from them.

[gollum65]

I was running silent but stopped so my crew would reload the tubes. I had fired all 8 fish at the destroyers and felt I needed more if I had any shot at escaping (if I could sink one....).

And I guess I'm unclear then on the question of pinging. Could anyone else verify how it works?

[razark]

If I understand correctly, when they are pinging, they are not listening. However, they are able to switch back and forth so quickly that you don't notice, and they seem to be pinging and listening at the same time.

Aside from that, you have two or more up there looking for you. One is pinging you, and the other is listening.


Get as deep as you can, and as quiet as you can. Keep the RPMs on the propellers low (either below 100 RPM or 50 RPM, I don't remember). Work your way out to deep water. Pay attention to where the enemy is. When they come over you to drop charges, run. They already know where you are, so you're not giving anything away. Go to flank, change depth, change heading, and drop back to slow speed. Change direction, but always keep heading for deeper water.

[sergei]

As you have discovered, attacking destroyers in shallow water is a real dicey proposition. Especially in TMO. I probably wouldn't try it myself.

As others have said, keep heading towards deeper water.

And best of luck to you.

[Diopos]

I wonder were the "when they're pinging they're not listening" argument comes from? A single DD is capable of "pinging" and "listening" at the same time. When there are more DDs around, usually one "pings" and everybody listens.
Your sub is capable of "pinging" and "listening" at the same time, so why not a DD?
And yes shallows and DDs don't make a good combination for subs.


:lurk:

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[WernherVonTrapp]

Yeah, I'd say you're in hot water, and only 130' deep too. Why did you waste 8 torps on what you thought was 1 measely DD, worth only a couple of k at best? If it were me, with 5nm to go before deep water, I'd hit flank speed, then cut all engines and coast my way toward the deep. Of course, you'll have to do this a number of times till you're a safe enough distance to travel at 1/3. In 130' of water, in TMO, I wouldn't wait around for a plane to spot me. Keep 'em astern and Good luck.:up:

[razark]

I wonder were the "when they're pinging they're not listening" argument comes from? A single DD is capable of "pinging" and "listening" at the same time. When there are more DDs around, usually one "pings" and everybody listens.
Not sure where I got this from, it's just something that sticks in my mind. Escorts can use one of two hunting behaviors. Either they are using active sonar and pinging away at you, or they are using passive sonar and only listening for you. Because there are two distinct states, they can do one or the other, but not both. However, they can switch between these two behaviors very quickly, so that it appears they are doing both at the same time.

With more than one escort, one will be running around in active search, while the others slow down or stop so they can listen.

Your sub is capable of "pinging" and "listening" at the same time, so why not a DD?

Because the game code doesn't equal reality.

[Armistead]

Hope you have rough seas. If seas are calm, you're in trouble.

Myself, screw low speed. When they make runs, hit flank towards deep water. In shallow water, the charges should still fall behind you if you hit flank right as they speed up. I wouldn't make hard turns, just small turns.



If wind is up, you can get by with some speed in shallow water, so use speed to your advantage. Try to use it when you're in the baffles of passing DD's.

[gollum65]

Thanks for the responses guys. Let me clarify a few things...

1) I only shot 2 torps at the 1st destroyer in my first attempt at him. As the 2nd torp left the tube was when the 2nd destroyer came out from behind the first and I knew I was in trouble. The other 6 were fired to try and get them off my tail. I've had occasions in other non-TMO games (just installed TMO) that when I shot at targets they pinged at me but just kept going. Was hoping this would happen this time, but it didn't.

2) Certainly learning my lesson about facing off against destroyers in shallow water. Wasn't my original intention but I'm pretty sure he spotted me at about the same time I spotted him as he was already inbound at full speed on my first contact with him.

3) The impression I have about pinging came from a tutorial or video off this site (don't remember which one) and Razark wrote it almost word for word. If they're pinging they're not listening but they can switch very fast and if there are multiple boats one is usually pinging while the others listen.

4) The bad news is that it's calm seas with no wind. The good news is that this whole engagement started just after sunset so I have all night to try to get away. I expect once the sun comes up they'll call in air cover and I'll be cooked.

I'll give it my best shot and see what happens. The joy of learning how to be a smart sub captain. :D

[gollum65]

After thinking about it some more I remembered where I read that ships that are pinging aren't listening. It's from the TMO manual .pdf document, page 46, the first section under "Understanding the AI & Evasion".


The Tin can itself as it applies to detection:
That wily Jap tin can loitering above your head can only do one of two things. It can listen (passive), and it can ping (active). What it can't do, is both at once. Hence I feel its a safe assumption to say, if a Tin can is pinging, hes not listening, and if hes not pinging he's listening.

Two important note's here to eliminate confusion:
A.) with multiple escorts on you, there is always somebody listening.
B.) The AI tends to key in on whichever sensor is receiving the biggest signature there is to pick up on.
While it can only use passive or active at a singular moment in time, it can switch between the two
quickly enough to make it appear that it is using both at once.

Perhaps I read it wrong?

[razark]

After thinking about it some more I remembered where I read that ships that are pinging aren't listening. It's from the TMO manual .pdf document, page 46, the first section under "Understanding the AI & Evasion".

I knew I saw that somewhere, I just couldn't remember.

[Ducimus]

There's always two ways to look at things like that.

a.) How it works in real life.
and
b.) How it really works in game.

I tend to focus on B when writing tutorials, tips or what not.:D

[gollum65]

I'm just going to call it what it is: sheer luck. After about 2 hours of cat and mouse I was able to make it to deep water and get away. As it turns out those destroyers were part of a whole convoy and it took me most of the night to get to safe water so I could reload my torpedo tubes but at least I made it.

Thanks for all the tips guys. Couldn't have done it without you guys.

[TabbyHunter]

Assumeing you have stern torpedo tubes...Hit flank, paricsope depth, Zero gyro on a stern torp, and pray you dont miss.

[WernherVonTrapp]

I'm just going to call it what it is: sheer luck. After about 2 hours of cat and mouse I was able to make it to deep water and get away. As it turns out those destroyers were part of a whole convoy and it took me most of the night to get to safe water so I could reload my torpedo tubes but at least I made it.

Thanks for all the tips guys. Couldn't have done it without you guys.Way to go, gollum65!:yeah: Tough situation but, you came through, shining like gold. Somehow, I had a feeling you would pull through.;)

[sergei]

I'm just going to call it what it is: sheer luck. After about 2 hours of cat and mouse I was able to make it to deep water and get away.

Glad you made it. :up:

What you have just done is gain valuable combat experience. :yep:

[Diopos]

There's always two ways to look at things like that.

a.) How it works in real life.
and
b.) How it really works in game.

I tend to focus on B when writing tutorials, tips or what not.:D

Your focus is correct.

Since you have already walked "the wild side" of the game (:DL) let me ask a question. If a lone DD pings (ingame), isn't it listening too (via the "swing" mechanic between active and passive status you describe in the manual)? What I am actually asking is that, regardless of how the game-code handles it, in game-play terms isn't the lone DD atempting to behave as pinging and listening simulteneously?

[gollum65]

I'm by no means even close to an expert. But I've watched my share of sub specials on the military channel and everywhere else (a few sub specials this week on the military channels btw). To me it's about the definition of the word we're using "listening". The way I always understood sonar was that the active pinging was basically no more then a range finding device. They send out a ping then "listen" to see how quickly it bounces back and that tells them how far the object is. While passive sonar is used to "listen" for distinct sounds the vessel makes (screws, water passing over the hull, metallic noises, etc...).

[Diopos]

Nope. It is both a "sensing" and a range estimating apparatus. You can reveal a "silent running" sub with active sonar while you may have missed it on passive sonar.

[timmyg00]

IRL If the active rangefinding portion of the sonar is being operated, it would probably be best if the operator was not actually listening to the passive receiver, lest his ears be blasted by the ping. In fact, there may be an interlock that “blanks” the passive hydrophone receiver section while active sonar is being operated, to keep the operator’s ears, or the receiver itself, from being damaged.


SO yes, the capability possibly exists to try to listen passively while pinging, but it might not be a very wise thing to do.


TG

[Diopos]

Guys if you can't locate, record, trace, listen the echo of your ping what the hell are you pinging for in the first place ?



.

[timmyg00]

The ping might be received and processed automatically by the sonar system ... speed of sound being about 1560m/sec in seawater, you’d have to be really fast to time that incoming echo even if the target was at the limit of the active sonar’s effective range.

[Ducimus]

regardless of how the game-code handles it, in game-play terms isn't the lone DD atempting to behave as pinging and listening simulteneously?

It tries, but it has its moment's where it fails miserably. The "one sensor at a time" mechanic also applies to YOUR sensor's. Next time your doing a submerged periscope attack, keep the scope down, and enjoy the passive sonar as reported by your AI crewman or map contacts. Then raise the scope when your targets in visual range, and watch the sonar contacts disappear. With the scope still up, ask your sonarman to follow the nearest contact and see what happens. :88)

[razark]

With the scope still up, ask your sonarman to follow the nearest contact and see what happens.
That part annoys me. I lower the scope, get the sonar following the nearest contact, then up the scope.

[Diopos]

It tries, but it has its moment's where it fails miserably. The "one sensor at a time" mechanic also applies to YOUR sensor's. Next time your doing a submerged periscope attack, keep the scope down, and enjoy the passive sonar as reported by your AI crewman or map contacts. Then raise the scope when your targets in visual range, and watch the sonar contacts disappear. With the scope still up, ask your sonarman to follow the nearest contact and see what happens. :88)

He, he. The extent of "shortcuts" the devs used in the game engine is unbelievable, isn't it? For me the "apocalypsis" was when I realized the fact that the map scale does not take into account latitude. "Flatland" anyone?:DL


.

[Ducimus]

Game world is about 25% larger then in real life due to that flat map.

For fun, go here:
http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm

and try making a plot from say.. pearl harbor to the bungo straights, and then do the same in game, and note the distance variation. :O:

[green_abobo]

I was running silent but stopped so my crew would reload the tubes. I had fired all 8 fish at the destroyers and felt I needed more if I had any shot at escaping (if I could sink one....).

And I guess I'm unclear then on the question of pinging. Could anyone else verify how it works?

as far as i know,in-game, destroyers indeed use both active and passive sonar.

active being the "ping" (similar to a fleet boat's hydrophone active ping ability to determine range and bearing to contact,or depth under keel) which gives away your bearing and depth, after it bounces off you and back to them,so they can set a course for your position, and also know how deep to set the depth charge(s).

IDK if it is a mod specific function, or historically correct, but in-game, in the case of securing from silent run to reload/repair,you run the risk of being "heard" as it is described as being "noisy". especially in shallower water,in relatively calm weather conditions.

i imagine this also has to do has to do with the functionality of the escort's sonar capability from one mod compared to another.

i always try and use the rule; the deeper,choppier,with the least amount of noise possible, the better.

if the weather isn't complying,you must be even more vigilant in choosing whether or not it is safe to secure from silent running.

[Diopos]

Game world is about 25% larger then in real life due to that flat map.

For fun, go here:
http://www.daftlogic.com/projects-google-maps-distance-calculator.htm

and try making a plot from say.. pearl harbor to the bungo straights, and then do the same in game, and note the distance variation. :O:

Have done this:
Midway to Oshima (island S/SE out of of Tokyo Gulf) on GoogleEarth. Marked Lats/Longs for 10 points along the path. Transferred them to SH4 map. The projected path was a modest curve of course. The in-game distance/range calculation brings tears in my eyes (for varius reasons :)).

My initial observation was:
Take two meridians which differ by, say 1°.
Go to the equator and measure their distance.
Do the same at latitude, say 60°.
Measure distance and compare with above. The distance will be the same ........ :damn:
Almost stopped playing the game ....

Anyway, I'll stop beating the dead horse.....

[gollum65]

Thanks guys. I stand corrected on how sonar works and I think I have a better understanding of everything now. Much appreciated.