Pros and Cons - Current Tank Sims (and your recommendations?)

[zossy1]

Hi guys,

Noob here - great forum, I'm really looking forward to getting stuck into some armored action!

I have played many war games over the years but never an armored sim - at least not since M1A1 Tank Platoon (the first one) back in the 80s! Things have sure changed since then.

With this in mind, I am looking for something new to play. I have two systems I use regularly - one is a fairly stock compact Dell Latitude 4300 Core 2 Duo 2.4Ghz, 4GB RAM and onboard Intel graphics for my trips on the train (XP SP3). The second PC is an Sager gaming laptop, less than a year old with i7 processor and top shelf everything (Win 7).

Given these systems, what would be the best tank sim to play on each system? I would prefer WW2-era sims but modern sims would be OK if the playability was superior. I am familiar with mods and JSGME from my time playing SH3 GWX. I would love something with a dynamic campaign and with infantry represented, but I am really looking for the best armored warfare gameplay experience as the priority.

I like the look of T34 vs. Tiger with ZeeWolf's mods...

Any thoughts on Achtung Panzer Kharkov? Any mod support for this game yet? It looks to have some weaknesses (at least on the reviews I have read).

Of the many other options, are there any that stand out?

Thanks guys!
zos.

[frinik]

Hi Zossy !

Every now and then somebody comes to this forum and starts a new thread asking the same question( read the recent threads going back to January).There are 2 WWII sims as Achtung Panzer the Road to Kharkov is a RTS( very good and well done according to the critics but not a simulation).

Sim-wise you basically have Steel Fury Kharkov 1942 a very good single player( no MP) sim with lots of mods and full developers support and a very active community).

TvsT was a bug-ridden, dead ender with few SP mission and a mostly MP component but abandoned by its developers like a hot potato.Both SF1942 and TvsT were distributed by Lighthouse Intreactive which went belly up last year.TvsT has better graphic but little else UNTIL Zeewolf CAME ALONG AND RESCUED THAT SIM FROM OBLIVION.Now there are mods and new missions and that game has found a future but it´s not free( unlike SF mods).However it´s worth the investment.Check ZeeWolf´s website or read the TvsT threads on this forum.


MY own opinion I have all 3 WW2 sims and love each for their own qualities.However to tell you the truth I wouldn´t still be playing TvsT if it were not for ZeeWolf´s Kursk mod and missions as SF 1942 has no bugs, lots of missions, vehicles and mods.

There's also Panzer Elite(not the Panzer Elite Action crap but the real original one!!!!).It's 12 years old with dated graphics but a very good game with lots of missions and free mods.

Post WW2 there's steel Beast the best by far and a classic but expensive.Veru modded and active community.
Otherwise in second tier, far behind, is T72 Balkans on Fire not too bad but not too exciting either.

A new tank sim is being developed by Graviteam the people who made Steel Fury 1942 and T72 which will pit the M60 against the T62 .It's promising but not out yet.

That's pretty much it.

Welcome:salute:

[Skybird]

You said WWII is preferred, so that leaves you with Steel Fury and TvT.

You also said that modern tank is okay if playability is superior, and you said you know M1TP. Considering both statements, Steel Beasts Pro is the only option for you then, because tactics are an important part of tank warfare and no other tank sim does the tactics part as well as SBP. Also, the realism factor in SBP is simply superior in all functional regards. Think of it as everything you wished M1TP would be - and then square it. I do not make myself many friends with this statement, but I must say that regarding simulation aspects, Steel Fury and TvT cannot compete with SBP, in no way. i think of them as actionsims at best. Both titles also lack the possibly mission compelxity and scale of SBP: described as a simulator of mechanised warfare focussing on platoon and company level, you can, if you want, also design batallion- and brigade-level scenarios. I tested it with according vehicle numbers four years ago, and the version back then still ran smooth.

Check the forum, and the resources stickies on top. Also use the search funtion to find threads about SBP, there have been so many threads on SBP where everything you need to know already has been said several times. there also is a screenshot and a video thread (linked in the sticky). The sim originally was designed to be a training tool for the real military, and that still is where the producer makes his money. But the civil gamer can handle it with ease as well, getting much fun from it. If the time era does not matter for you, SBP is the way to go (even more so since you can make it behaving like tank combat in WWII, too, see the essay in the SBP resources sticky.

Be advised that a new version of SBP is imminent, adding anadditional set of new vehicles, amongst other features. Release date is 21st August.

One of many:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY7D9j9B0lc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EY7D9j9B0lc)

It got confirmed meanwhile that the new version will include even more new vehciles than are mentioned here, for example the M60.

On Steel Fury, I only say that I played and reviewed it, and took it as a sub-standard simulation, but a reasonably entertaining action game. so9und, gameplay, AI has imo very serious issues.

TvT, which I meanwhile was able to testplay on somebody else's system, left me unimpressed. The linear mission layouts lack reasons for replayability, and remind quite much of action games where the player has little room to stray off the predesgined path of the story. also, you need to do quite some modding in ordert to get - partially game-criplling - bugs fixed.

Both games see some modding activity, but for the most that seems to be cosmetic only, not allowing serious changes to AI, tactics, mission freedom, etc. Mods add a lot of new vehicles, it seems, but to what degree these vehicles are realistically modelled in ballistics, weapon characteristics and armour, I cannot judge. I highly doubt they reach SBP's expertise in these regards.

Panzer Elite, the old one, that got mentioned one posting above, I cannot recommend nowadays any longer, it simply is hopelessly outdated in all regards. The T72 Balkans on Fire was an uninspired, and I seem to remember: badly supported game, and left me completely unimpressed.

[zossy1]

Thanks for the useful info - and apologies for not locating those earlier threads. Hate to have you guys reinvent the wheel - i'll see if I can locate them.

Will definitely take a closer look at those options.

[ZeeWolf]

Welcome aboard zossy! :up:

ZeeWolf

ZW's new playable Tiger E1 mid version

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k442/autopilot_2008/ZWs_TigerE1_10.jpg

[frinik]

Zossy , just to add my grain of salt.Steel Beast is a simulator software developed by professionals working for NATO and used ny NATO countries.It´s way above the competition because it´s just that a simulator forst and foremost that became a game by default.It features current, state-of-the-art armour the like of which has never existed before.That explains the relatively high purchase price, the degree of sophistication and the somewhat understated graphics.It was not intended as entertainment or gaming; at least not initially.In my opinion compàring SB with the others is like the proverbial apples and oranges.....

The others whether Steel Fury, TvsT, Panzer Elite etc where never intended to faithfully recreate tank warfare in order to train people but merely as historical recreation intended to entertain sim fans and provide hours of fun either as single player or multi.I called them simulation games as opposed to SB which is simulation training software turned into a game. The sim games allows us to live or experience in a remote fashion what is was like to fight in behemoths like the Tigers, Panthers, T34s or Shermans in the greatest and bloodiest conflict ever experienced by mankind.The costs are also not comparable, SB is expensive whereas the others can be purchased cheaply.You get what you pay for which does not detract the fact that both TvsT and SF offer good value for their price as does SB but on different levels.

Once you accept those differences you can decide whether you want to go for the serious SB which will really allow you what it feels like to manoeuvre the best armour the modern world has to offer:the Leopard 2A6, the MA1Abrams, the Challenger 2 and their Russian counterparts or would you rather play entertaining but less realistic and sophisticated sim games...

Up to you.Although of you can afford SB as well as SF and TvsT then you can sample a bit of everything.

Hope we haven´t bombarded you too much with too many options but since you asked for a recommendation....:D

[Skybird]

I just want to add that SBP may be meant as a pro trainign tool, but it can be handled like any simple action game, if wanted. Also, the range of vehicles is consantly growing, and the MBTs now range back to the M60 and the T-62 and T-55 (plus plenty IFVs and APCs). If switiching off modern systems like laser, thermals, NVGs, and battling with optical sights only, you can do battle in WWII style with quite old tanks now - just with hopelessly superior tactical options and mission diversity possible - and in much bigger scenarios (if you want you can have batallions and regiments/brigagdes. Whether or not it make ssense to set up such big scenarios, is something totally different).

I also must line out that SF and TvT suffer from imo seriously flawed design features, in case of SF i mention a very incompetent AI, small mission scale, very bad sound environment (no distance-volume relation, no sound travelling delay, no differing of own tank from that tank 2 km away getting hit). with the original release, which I tested, I found mkissions to become very simplistic and repetitive very soon. Tactical challenge: zero. In case of TvT, which I only tested one afternoon on somebody else's system some time ago, I must mention the immense technical problems of the original release (preventing many people from even launching nthe game, and non-working internet play), and the simplistic, ver ylinear mission gameplay that rmeinded of any action game. Did I perceive it wrong ir do enemies even respawn if the player does not advance in the prefixed linear way to the next ingame progress point? I had the very strong impression, but I did not play it long. In what it does, the game looks nice, but it does not much, and other than that it left me unimpressed: tactical challenge: zero.

So, for the quick break in the office that may be good enough, like "Moorhuhn Shooting". More I cannot get from these two.

I do not wish to piss any modders here, to make that clear. If people like some game and invest time into adding skins and vehicles to it, there is nothing to say against that enthusiasm. but I think fairness demands to also reveal the deficits of a game to somebody still considering whether or not he separates from his money, since I see both games as problematic. The games may be cheap now, but they are not free. SBP may look more expensive than usual games, but the durability per buck ratio for SBP is extremely high, making it a cheap title, whereas even with the low price of SF and TvT, the durability per buck ratio is very low, making the games if not expensive then at leat not as cheap as they look.

Edit
P.S. Just realised that I partially repeated myself. Sorry for that, I did not mean to squeeze my thoughts into your jaw.

[Skybird]

Welcome aboard zossy! :up:

ZeeWolf

ZW's new playable Tiger E1 mid version

http://i327.photobucket.com/albums/k442/autopilot_2008/ZWs_TigerE1_10.jpg

:yeah:
As I said, the looks of TvT are good!

[frinik]

Again my experience with Steel Fury differs from Skybird´s.Yes the AI can be dumb at times but on balance I would say it´s acceptable . The infantry ducks, takes cover and acts very human'like at times.The tanks will try to outflank or catch you by surprise.Certainly compared to Panzer Elite or TvsT it´s much better( although ZeeWolf has made solid strides with TvsT's AI).I have been playing it for 2 years and there are over 90 missions now depending on the mods and the mission editor is user-friendly which allows me to make my taste-tailored missions.TvsT true enough was very linear and ultimately a dead end as the ME is hard to crack and no new missions or addons were being produced.That has changed with ZeeWolf's mods.

If you were playing M1A1 tank platoon you may feel more at home with SB( I ´ve never played M1A1 so I am just assuming).

Best way to find out which one is for you is to download the free demos. SB, SF and TvsT have free demos you can download and try before you make a choice.

[ht-57]

My 2 cents...
Steel fury is fun for a while....But sbprope is by far, the smoothest running, longest lasting title to ever grace this ole pc. best buck fifty I spent on a sim bar none!

[ZeeWolf]

Hey Skybird!
Don't forget this quote:

"Just because someone is a self righteous, sanctimonious, genius does not mean they know how to tell the truth" -Karl Popper :har:


ZeeWolf

[frinik]

Ouch Zee!It sounds like you just fired a Panzergranate 39 from your great looking Tiger Ausf.H I just can´t wait to play.Skybird Hull down Man ! You´re under attack....:DL

This is what´s great about this forum. we may differ, disagree, counter each other etc but it´s never acrimonious and once the gunsmoke has dissipated there are no hard feelings.

As I said before in a different post everybody has different tastes.I like SB very much and enjoy playing it but SF and TvsT have a different appeal as they deal with a different period and I enjoy very much playing with ZeeWolf´s work and the SF modders´ labour.

I avoid comparisons because to me it´s like comparing driving a classic antique car from the 30s, 40s or 50s and then comparing it to the latest Mercedes, Porsche, Maserati or Lotus.I personally don´t care about classic cars from the old days and I much prefer modern cars with their technology and sophistication but at the same time I understand why some people are fascinated and worship oldies like I feel more attracted to WW2 sims than modern ones.Likewise some guys prefer mature women to young ones.....

We could spend hours or days tossing arguments pro and con the various sims-games mentioned above but in the end it´s really what makes one tick that matters .

Cheers!

[Skybird]

Its not so much comparing an antique sports car versus a modern sports car, it is more like comparing an antique toy model of a car against a modern real sport car. ;) I would not have any problem with playing WWII tank sims, and I did in the past (Panzer Elite). If I have a principal problem with WWII matter, I would not have tested SF and even pay money for it, nor would have have done IL2 and BoB and SH3. The problem I have is that TvT and SF do not do well what they do - no matter whether i compare them to SBP or take them for themselves, or compare them to any other quality sim. They deliver the looks of the times, but not the functionality that one must demand in a good sim in order to label it as that: a good sim. thats why back then I gave SF two final scores: taken as an action game I gave it a B, taken as a sim I gave it a D-, if i remember correctly.

[Sledgehammer427]

I am more partial to Skybirds side on this. I haven't played SBP myself, but wanting to buy it for a few years makes you do your homework.
If memory serves me right, SBP is a training simulator, just with the instructor module removed.

Steel fury and T-34 Versus Tiger are both simulations but not in the same regard. While, yes, there is some realism involved, it's nothing like the realism offered by SBP

Steel Beasts was built to give the user every preparation to go to war in that certain tank, being able to drive it and use it's gun without having to use any petrol or waste any ammunition. I think military advisers were present during the development process as well.
Steel Fury and TvsT were built to give the user the impression of "this is how war was fought back then" The battles depicted and the tactics used were taken from a book or eyewitness accounts, and probably a lot of artistic liscense

as much as I'd like to see a SBP-caliber WWII tank sim, I just don't see any other game to make a comparison with for the time being.

[frinik]

Well Sledge this is what I said in one of my posts as well.SB is professional training software tweaked into a game.It was developped thanks probably to generous disbursements by the Pentagon or NATO while SF and TvsT were made by small teams of Eastern Europeans programmers very dedicated but without the required funds to do anything comparable.Graviteam people say that much on their forum when they mentions that being cash/strapped forces them to adhere to basics when they make games.Had they been able to make SF with the kind of support/funding SB has had then perhaps the result might have been different.

Unless some game company with ample funds and a willingness to put perfection ahead of short term profits comes along and agrees to pout the cash needed to make a WW2 sim comparable or that can compete with SB then SB will reign supreme for decades to come.

Frankly I don't see that coming because the tank sim game market is small compared to first person shooters, RTS or arcade/style sims like the Wolrd of Tanks, Panzer Elite Action Fields of Glory or Dunes of War.Even the aircraft or sub sims markets are probably bigger

[Skybird]

I am more partial to Skybirds side on this. I haven't played SBP myself, but wanting to buy it for a few years makes you do your homework.
If memory serves me right, SBP is a training simulator, just with the instructor module removed.
And certain map options, redcued availability of maps, limited number of players in multiplay.

Steel Beasts was built to give the user every preparation to go to war in that certain tank, being able to drive it and use it's gun without having to use any petrol or waste any ammunition.
No. there is no competent driving module. The focus was on tactical coordination of mechanized forces from a TC's perspective, the firing module (plus according handles by AFVsims), was added later by demand. also, many tank-internal procedures are ignored, even more so in those tanks that do not feature fully modelled 3D interiors (like the Leopard2-A4 for example). So the sim is a plan-making, a tactical and gunnery trainer, it is no tank trainer making you more competent to drive and run that thing.

Steel Fury and TvsT were built to give the user the impression of "this is how war was fought back then" The battles depicted and the tactics used were taken from a book or eyewitness accounts, and probably a lot of artistic liscense
I think it was not about how the battles were fought realistically. It was about giving it the visual looks of the time (and this they did quite successfully, I would say). Both games do not show how battles were really fought, for that they lack tactical competence, realistic formation manouvering and management, and a better AI.

Whether or not the penetration power of projectiles and the resistence of armour plates on different parts of given vehicles are realistic or not, I cannot - and have not - judged. At least they seem to get correct the basic rules of "kinetic ammo loosing power over greater range", and "turret tougher than hull, front tougher than flank tougher than rear". But that only saves it when tactical behavior and AI do not fail you - and that is the game's problems.

[Skybird]

Well Sledge this is what I said in one of my posts as well.SB is professional training software tweaked into a game.It was developped thanks probably to generous disbursements by the Pentagon or NATO

No, the US army has not bought it, and NATO had nothign to do with it. The team built them first version by itself, basing on not classified information that is poublicly available, and feedback from real tankers. the danish then bought it, and since then they offer it to other customer nations as well. just after that start they started to implement features that existing or potential customers ordered.


while SF and TvsT were made by small teams of Eastern Europeans programmers very dedicated but without the required funds to do anything comparable.Graviteam people say that much on their forum when they mentions that being cash/strapped forces them to adhere to basics when they make games.Had they been able to make SF with the kind of support/funding SB has had then perhaps the result might have been different.

I doubt that that is much different with ESim, it is no great studio either. If they had more money,m the sim would implement more of gamer's demand, but they cannot afford the ressoruces to do that in most cases, at least it takes them long time. A crewable T-72 for example is hoped for since years. Other features they rightout must reject. the team was even smaller in the very beginning of eSim. I think they still depend on basically just one programmer, the others help in vehicle design, skins, sounds, etc.

Lieste et al, correct me if I saying something wrong.


Unless some game company with ample funds and a willingness to put perfection ahead of short term profits comes along and agrees to pout the cash needed to make a WW2 sim comparable or that can compete with SB then SB will reign supreme for decades to come.
I think a shift in focus would be as important, if not more. the porblem with great publishers is that they tend to rush titles onto markets. so big money companies a,one are not necessarily a solution. in the cosim genre, the best games come from the smallest teams, it seems to me.

Frankly I don't see that coming because the tank sim game market is small compared to first person shooters, RTS or arcade/style sims like the Wolrd of Tanks, Panzer Elite Action Fields of Glory or Dunes of War.Even the aircraft or sub sims markets are probably bigger
tjhat is n surprise, flight games always have been extremely popular, naval sims are a niche product only.But the demand for tank games is not as small as you think, i think. I remember very well the heated activity in the forum here and elsehwere when it was annouhced that a WWII tanker is comingl and not even one but two! But then it was lighthouse, and the sims themselves also not convincing for many people, so the majorty of the trek moved on, leaving only real fans on the scene.

I think a really welldone WWII tanksim that is released in a good shape and by competent publisher, and that features good tactics, a minimum of physical realism, a minimum in battlefield realism, and a solid AI, would have the potential to become really successful, like SH3 or IL2 - even more so when it would also look good.

[frinik]

Thanks Skybird for the correction. For some reason I thought SB had been susidised by some government or institution.Then all the more merit for the developers since they worked without major financial patron.:yeah:

Re the tank sim market I got the info that the " realistic" tank sim( the real ones as I am excluding the arcade tank games which are fairly more popular sales-wise than the realistic ones) from a 2008 article on SimHQ which said that the market was very small and that explained why so few titles actually came out every year on the market.However there´s a very fervent hard-core group of tank sim lovers( I include myself) which boils up with hope everytime a new tank sim comes out. I agree with you that´s there defintely ground for improvement .Graviteam is releasing 2 new titles; a post WW2 tank sim called Steel Armour, Blaze of War featuring the T62 and M60 ( and possibly other tanks like the Chieftain, T55) with missions to be played on 60 sq km maps in various war theatres like Angola, Iran-Iraq and Afghanistan and a WW2 one next year based on the last battle for Kharkov in August 1943 using their very successful Achtung Panzer Roads to Kharkov RTS game engine as a basis.They are promosing a focus on strategy and tactics with airstrikes, artillery, the ability to dig trenches, infantry assaults and improved AI . We´ll see if their labour will live up to the expectations.

[Skybird]

a post WW2 tank sim called Steel Armour, Blaze of War featuring the T62 and M60 ( and possibly other tanks like the Chieftain, T55) with missions to be played on 60 sq km maps in various war theatres like Angola, Iran-Iraq and Afghanistan
If that is what you are interested in, amongst much other stuff the new version of SBP offers you (so far non-crewable) right those M60A3s and T-55s and T-62, and the theatres you mentioned anyway. with the crewable Leopard-1DK and the crewable Leopard-1AS, battles of that vehicle composition can be realistically modelled without having any historic "time gaps" that would need to be compensated for. Needless to say that since it is SBP, settings for ammunition effectiveness and armour characteristics can be expected to be spot on.

What also thrilled me is that for the first time ever these fantastic German armoured fighting vehicles called "Wiesel" are introduced, too: fast, agile like hell, small in size, can hide everywhere, hard to spot and aim at, and capable to deliver total knockout blows at tanks even over longest distances. These tiny little beasts are hell to fight against. In reality they come in small autocannon, TOW, mortar and anti-air configurations. Their name "Weasel" is very well-choosen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sm9tjddIp18

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rud4-CzWmA&feature=related

I love these things. But as somebody wrote in another forum: their crews tend to be (and need to be, as he said) a bit crazy. :D

[frinik]

You can now play the Wiesel in SB? Wonderful news.Thanks for posting the U Tube.What mod is it exactly?

These small tracked vehicles would be ideal in Afghanistan to use against the Taliban terrorists.These cowardly murderers have notched another exploit; they just murdered 10 foreign medics giving free eye care to Afghani children.In addition to disfiguring young girls going to school , destroying cultural monuments these illiterate fanatics have shown their " courage" once more.They´re the real wiesels.....

Anyway enough ranting.

Thanks Skybird!:salute:

[Skybird]

No mod, but a new program version, 2.53 i think, or 2.56. It is not added to existing versions, but is a separate new installation in itself. You do just one install and then you're done and most up-to-date. the old codemeter stick is being used.

I just do not know if the Wiesel is crewable or only commandable. There are 20 new vehicles all in all, some are oll-out new, some are reworks-from-scratch (that's why they are "new") of already existing vehicles.

The wiesel can be seen in the third teaser:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-o-OFzKII4

The second teaser shows the M60, T-55 and T-62 in action:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MckyQ4S1--o&feature=related

[Sledgehammer427]

Thanks for the correction at the top of the page Skybird, still some more homework to do I guess.:dead:

So are the Steel Beasts patches/updates starting to go backwards? last I saw they were releasing more modern tanks and now they are going back to the Pattons and T-55's?

[Skybird]

Thanks for the correction at the top of the page Skybird, still some more homework to do I guess.:dead:

So are the Steel Beasts patches/updates starting to go backwards? last I saw they were releasing more modern tanks and now they are going back to the Pattons and T-55's?
No, i assume these tanks got included because especially the M60 and the T-55 are very wide spread. The T-55 is the most often build tank after WWII, I think. I seem to remember an estimation of 95,000 being produced. In 3rd world missions, crews need to expect to meet them, especially the T-55 and T-64. Africa is infested with T-55s, so to speak. :D

The upcoming new version features also the most modern challenger-II, additonal to the M1A1 so far the M1A1 HA and M1A2 SEP, plus a range of forward observers, combat support vehicles, civilian cars, combat vehicles, most promising the Piranha-III with fully modelled Weapon Remote Station RWS, and 3D interior. Several already existing vehicles got updated (newly done) models and skins. It is hoped that the Centauro from last year will have been made a crewable, too (still not confirmed so far).

Plus plenty of new buildings, NVG, snow to sink into, city street walls, and more.

http://www.steelbeasts.com/sbforums/sbgallery/main.php?g2_itemId=16069

[Sledgehammer427]

SBP has reached the top of my "must buy this year" list.:up:

I've been looking for a game that will challenge my tactical expertise

[murkz]

It is hoped that the Centauro from last year will have been made a crewable, too (still not confirmed so far).


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlxgZxflP4w&playnext=1&videos=VkiUZkd3XPw

Looks like you have your Centauro interior Skybird :)

[Skybird]

:D

That will be fun!

[Skybird]

I've been looking for a game that will challenge my tactical expertise
Alternative, if you want a challenge to your tactical expertise: Conquest of the Aegean and the successor Battle of the Bulge, Matrix Games. Ground strategy on operational level, very detailed, very nasty AI. I always could swear I play some mean wicked human. Best strategy and tactis game of that kind I know of.