Is the sim genre dead? [Archive] - SUBSIM Radio Room Forums

the_tyrant

08-01-10, 10:36 AM

Arclight

08-01-10, 10:41 AM

Bit too early to tell, but it seems likely Silent Hunter has seen it's last iteration.

Sims though, they are doing fine. It's a relatively small market, but steady. As long as there's demand, there will be sims.

SgtPotato

08-01-10, 11:11 AM

Well, we have too many casual games and casual players...

I HATE CASUAL. :mad:

Takeda Shingen

08-01-10, 11:55 AM

First of all, is silent hunter dead? Because it is one of the last hard core simulations around. If silent hunter is dead, than the simulation genre is pretty much dead. (HAWX and Battlestations pacific don't count. lock on is now the last sim standing):wah::wah::wah::wah::wah:
Silent hunter is the last submarine simulator we have, so i'm thinking maybe we should start a supermod. Like the Openfalcon mod for falcon 4.0. Or else in the future we will have nothing left to play on our 32 core processors and our 9870*2s.

There will always be simulators, so no, the genre is not dead. Also, I would not classify the Silent Hunter series as hard-core study sims. They are more in the line of historical simulators with gaming elements. Not to say they aren't enjoyable, just not 'hard-core' without mods.

Navarre

08-01-10, 12:23 PM

Well, we have too many casual games and casual players...
On average, the production costs per game today are 18-28 million U.S. dollars, top titles like CoD:MW are up to 40 million U.S. dollar. Therefore many publishers are considering whether to invest these sums in a genre that due to the smaller number of customers not nearly getting the invested dollars back.

Jimbuna

08-01-10, 02:31 PM

I'm hoping the SH series isn't dead and hope Ubi and any other companies who may be considering investing in the genre realise there is a strong and vibrant community here who are thinking likewise.

Egan

08-01-10, 02:34 PM

Silent Hunter might or might not be dead but I don't think sims are. What I think will happen more and more is that simulation titles will move to smaller, specialist developers and publishers who sell entirely on-line and charge higher prices than a standard triple A title would cost. Look at Steal Beasts for a good example. I expect far more of that type of business plan in the future. I think developers like Battlefront, Matrix and others will move in to fill the void left by the major labels and we will get some great sims out of all the changes. I am actually quite optimistic about the way things might go and I suspect we might see a new 'golden age' of hard core study sims somewhere along the line.

I think Oleg's 'Storm of War: Battle of Britain,' might be the last sim we see done the way it is currently. I have a real feeling that this is less the beginning of the end and more the end of the beginning. The likely higher prices is a trade off I'm willing to live with. beside, I only buy a title or two a year now and have no problem with spending the money on a sim I know I'm going to get years of play out of.

As for sub sims, well, I just don't know. I am willing, however, to get Aces of the Deep 2 into production. All I need is about a million bucks and 12 good men.....:salute:

THE_MASK

08-01-10, 02:36 PM

It seems to me that SH5 could have been a huge market for the over 40 age bracket if it was properly finished and advertised . You would think that with the dwindling pc game market that pc component manufacturers would be pouring some money into this market to try to prop it up , maybe they are . There are absolutely no pc games in my local eb games i would buy , sick of shooters .

Drewcifer

08-01-10, 03:13 PM

Silent Hunter, possibly, Sims? No. DCS Black Shark, A-10 anybody? Um Arma? Submarines might not be getting much love but Sims as a 'genre' while smaller then your standard Arcade market are doing just fine.
Just don't expect a DCS game to compete with Blizzard or EA, lol.

the_tyrant

08-01-10, 03:16 PM

On average, the production costs per game today are 18-28 million U.S. dollars, top titles like CoD:MW are up to 40 million U.S. dollar. Therefore many publishers are considering whether to invest these sums in a genre that due to the smaller number of customers not nearly getting the invested dollars back.

I think(not sure) that simulations actually cost more. since compared to arcade games simulators require research and have to be accurate.

DavyJonesFootlocker

08-01-10, 05:22 PM

With Oleg Maddox's Battle of Britain hopefully will be out I don't think sims are dead.

Badger Finn

08-01-10, 09:52 PM

As for sub sims, well, I just don't know. I am willing, however, to get Aces of the Deep 2 into production. All I need is about a million bucks and 12 good men.....:salute:

Would gladly pay 150+ $ ...

couple of cavets

its a finished product as orig AoD was at release

it actually tweaks and improves the original, if thats possible?

The physics - sim/game play in AoD *out of the box* were superb light years ahead of where sims appear to be today...

Time will tell on the DID for sim genre...

Schwieger

08-01-10, 10:39 PM

ah, I think that Sims should combine with real time strategy...

elanaiba

08-02-10, 04:29 AM

As for sub sims, well, I just don't know. I am willing, however, to get Aces of the Deep 2 into production. All I need is about a million bucks and 12 good men.....:salute:

1 (good?) man here if you need me :P

PL_Andrev

08-02-10, 05:22 AM

1 (good?) man here if you need me :P

Of course we need you...
Well...
When new patch for SH5?
When DC2 add-on?
:03:

THE_MASK

08-02-10, 05:28 AM

1 (good?) man here if you need me :P
No need for the ? Dan , your a good bloke .

Zedi

08-02-10, 06:38 AM

1 (good?) man here if you need me :P

Skip pls. Skip all who's related to Ubi and SH.

Arclight

08-02-10, 06:48 AM

'scuse me? :-?

Will-Rommel

08-02-10, 07:03 AM

Skip pls. Skip all who's related to Ubi and SH.

That was harsh and totally unecessary if you ask me, but i guess every one can have his opinions. :hmmm:

Nisgeis

08-02-10, 07:59 AM

Would gladly pay 150+ $ ...

I'd hate to think what the level of expectation for that product would be. What? No solid brass whiz wheel? No Zeiss Binoculars in the box?! :DL

but i guess every one can have his opinions. :hmmm:

Too much negativity on the forums.

mikeydredd

08-02-10, 08:01 AM

I don't think the genre is dead, I just think there isn't much of a market for BAD simulators, and it would be fatal for our hobby if the two were to become confused with each other.

When you think that a simulator back in the nineties cost £35 and that is what you still pay for them now - is it any wonder that they are cut down shadows of their former selves? With a "manual" that's not even worthy of the name.

Most of the target market for such titles are at the more "mature" end and have a comparably greater disposable income than the teenage whizz-bang shootem-up fraternity, and speaking personally I would be happy to spend £60 maybe £70 on a couple of titles a year that I knew I would enjoy for years to come.

Stick in the box a keycard, decent maps, and a ring-bound manual that is an intrinsic part of the simulator, which puts it in a realistic and believable historic context, without which it would make very little sense and would be unplayable, and in my opinion you would have an absolute winner.

In other words go back to the golden era of MicroProse, Lucasarts, and EA/Janes. I still read those manuals to this day!!

Piracy wouldn't be a problem, because these people aren't interested in a pirated copy anyway, and, without a manual, the simulator wouldn't be playable.

And for crying out loud forget about any sort of useless DRM that gets cracked on the first day.

In other words start treating your clientel like decent, honest, intelligent human beings.

Regards,

Dredd:arrgh!:

Yosarian

08-02-10, 08:02 AM

That was harsh and totally unecessary if you ask me, but i guess every one can have his opinions. :hmmm:
The gaming-industry is not a cuddle zoo!:smug:

Takeda Shingen

08-02-10, 08:10 AM

The gaming-industry is not a cuddle zoo!:smug:

And SubSim is not a mudpit. The comment in question was out of line.

Destraex

08-02-10, 08:47 AM

how about:

Rise of Flight
Black Shark and all of its modules
Steel Beasts Pro PE
Battle of Britain : Storm over Europe

And thats just for a start. Tootle over to simhq and take a look

Jimbuna

08-02-10, 09:44 AM

And SubSim is not a mudpit. The comment in question was out of line.

Agrees....could also be interpreted as a personal attack :nope:

robbo180265

08-02-10, 09:57 AM

And SubSim is not a mudpit. The comment in question was out of line.

For what it's worth - I agree too. His statement was completely out of line:nope:

krashkart

08-02-10, 10:13 AM

Sims won't die as long as we have computers to create and play them on. As for the Silent Hunter line, it's been less than a year since it (SH5) was released so... it might be too soon to write it off completely. Some games just bloom later than others. If there is no official word from the publisher that states very clearly that they no longer support the game, then who is to say for certain?

elanaiba

08-02-10, 11:36 AM

For what it's worth - I agree too. His statement was completely out of line:nope:

While I appreciate the support, its just an opinion after all.

We're talking about something hypothetical after all, and in that hypothesis we can agree that if no-one from Ubi would be involved, there would be positives:
-a new team and creative vision can bring a different approach, different path, instead of going the same old routes
-possibility of having TWO subsims developed and competing against each other, instead of the current status quo - you like SH or not, its the only game in town.

Ducimus

08-02-10, 03:55 PM

Personally, i have the distinct impression submarine sim's are a generational thing. A small corner of a nitch market. The games industry isn't a public service, they're there to make big bucks. Walk into any store that still sells PC games, and it isn't hard to see what type of games move past the cash register.

There was a time when there were a few sub sims to choose from.... way back in the AOD, SH1 days, and the couple of "me too" clones they inspired. But the way things are now, ill wager that if no more submarine sims were ever made again, the only group (a small group in the big scheme of things) who would notice is the subsim.com community. The majority of game players and makers would not notice, nor would care.

In this respect, SH5 had the right idea to get a little (or alot) more RPGish. SH5 NEEDED to draw more people to the genre to draw interest to the genre in order to keep it alive. If it weren't released with so many bugs, an saddled with the DRM, it may have succeeded. But it didn't.

I for one, do not expect to see ANY more sub sim's for a VERY long time. Maybe even never again.

Egan

08-02-10, 04:20 PM

1 (good?) man here if you need me :P

Aha! Good man! We'll have this done in no time! Aces of the Deep 2 - free captain's hat with every purchase! :up:

What we need to do is do a Manchester City Football club and find a Middle eastern royal family with limitless funds and an obsession with world war 2 submarines - hey, stranger things have happened, like Manchester City football club being bought by a middle eastern royal family with limitless funds etc etc.

FIREWALL

08-02-10, 04:32 PM

As long as there's large websites like this showing interest in Subsims.

Some smart game company will pickup the ball Ubisoft dropped.

skoop

08-02-10, 09:13 PM

First of all, is silent hunter dead? Because it is one of the last hard core simulations around. If silent hunter is dead, than the simulation genre is pretty much dead. (HAWX and Battlestations pacific don't count. lock on is now the last sim standing):wah::wah::wah::wah::wah:
Silent hunter is the last submarine simulator we have, so i'm thinking maybe we should start a supermod. Like the Openfalcon mod for falcon 4.0. Or else in the future we will have nothing left to play on our 32 core processors and our 9870*2s.

What, you don't play FC2 + DCS blackshark with DCS A10C on the way ?

You don't play Steel Beasts pro pe ?

No love from combat mission ?

I just named 3 active sims that are very well supported, seems that if you are concerned about sims dying, maybe you should support the ones that are left.

JScones

08-03-10, 02:50 AM

We're talking about something hypothetical after all, and in that hypothesis we can agree that if no-one from Ubi would be involved, there would be positives:
-a new team and creative vision can bring a different approach, different path, instead of going the same old routes
-possibility of having TWO subsims developed and competing against each other, instead of the current status quo - you like SH or not, its the only game in town.
You know, whilst I agree 100%, I can't help but think that had anyone else made the same post, there'd be at least five "you're wrong" (and one "your wrong") posts made by now.

Just a random observation.

robbo180265

08-03-10, 02:54 AM

You know, whilst I agree 100%, I can't help but think that had anyone else made the same post, there'd be at least five "you're wrong" (and one "your wrong") posts made by now.

Just a random observation.

your wrong....:O:

JScones

08-03-10, 02:54 AM

There was a time when there were a few sub sims to choose from.... way back in the AOD, SH1 days, and the couple of "me too" clones they inspired. But the way things are now, ill wager that if no more submarine sims were ever made again, the only group (a small group in the big scheme of things) who would notice is the subsim.com community. The majority of game players and makers would not notice, nor would care.

<snip>

I for one, do not expect to see ANY more sub sim's for a VERY long time. Maybe even never again.
Here's where I think the future of "subsims" is...

http://au.xbox360.ign.com/articles/110/1103627p1.html

Arclight

08-03-10, 02:56 AM

Maybe. I'm not sure the team would decide to pursue his vision. I don't think having Dan on that team would exclude either of the 2 options. :hmmm:

JScones

08-03-10, 02:59 AM

your wrong....:O:
:rotfl2:

Tessa

08-03-10, 03:43 AM

SH is nearly exactly like the X^ universe game series in terms of gameplay, mods and difficulty. If you're looking for instant gratification out of the box you'll be sorely dissapointed, but if you take the time to read the manuals and the forums (just the manual in both cases I think will still leave you really green and not get the full potential of the game) both games have nearly infinite possibilities.

The one aspect that I wish SH had that the X universe games have heavily benefitted from is having many of the game's actual programmers are also some of the biggest mod contributors to the game. Many of the mods for the games are unbelievable; though I would say that the quality and dedication of both SH and X^ communites is about equal, having programmers that are also hard core players and modders gives everyone an enormouse edge. Major bugs/physics problems are discovered by the people in the position to change them in future patches rather than have them propogate through each game like a few have with the SH series.

I can emphatize for the companies desire to have good DRM, but we're not talking about software that costs $200,000+ to license! Have faith in your customers, especially in this genre we're not talking about a bunch of irresponsible kids that are proud of how many cracked programs they have on their computer. Even if SH were shareware, I'd still pay the $20 because its worth it, and want to see newer better ones come out. As earlier pointed out SH5 was marketed to the wrong crowd which I think's 100% on the mark; not many people under 25 or 30 are going to have the interest in this series (of course any that do are always welcome with open arms, having the younger generation learn about what war was really like is outstanding) and spend the hours just learning how to play the game to the point that its enjoyable. Those of us that do aren't going to worry about DRM since we've go no reason not to buy a legit copy in the first place.

Jankowski

08-03-10, 06:46 AM

sims wont die for a looong time. look at il2 1946, soon to be releasing the 4.10 patch!

Jimbuna

08-03-10, 08:12 AM

sims wont die for a looong time. look at il2 1946, soon to be releasing the 4.10 patch!

In fairness though...I think you've chosen one the most popular titles as an example, heck even I have that :DL

Gorshkov

08-03-10, 09:22 AM

I agree PC simulators are pretty dead genre now and this won't change in the future. I think what mostly killed them was emerging of console games market which removed PC from position of most popular gaming platform. On the other hand it is almost impossible to develop advanced simulators on consoles due to many various reasons. What is worse younger gamers play usually on consoles and PC games (especially simulators) look like some dinos to them!

In sum PC simulators market shrink considerably in the last decade to the point all mainstream publishers abandoned it with UBI being the last example. Now PC simulators are developed almost exclusively by fan groups and companies present on both military and entertainment markets. Such situation means game development takes very long time (fan groups do not have enough money, they write games in their spare time) or games are quite expensive and not always possess features liked by players. That is why you have only those still "active" simulators left:

- Steel Beasts Pro - 125 bucks only

- DCS study sims family made by ED - each module bought separately, lack of dynamic campaign, quite long development time

Maybe Oleg Maddox will make a show with his Storm of War but let's wait how this game will finally look like. Anyway MS abandoned FSX, UBI most probably abandoned SH franchise, Sonanalysts left game market after DW release, etc. I intentionally do not take into account some old games still sold or modded today because this is another story.

And that is pretty much all... :(

Hartmann

08-03-10, 02:10 PM

And more

X plane (for flight sim)
Orbiter (space, upgraded to the 2010 version)
Arma (well is ground warfare , but is a sim)

I think that the market is reduced but in some cases in continuous development . flyght sims are the better situated while naval sims are near to the end.

The only way could be develop a 3d engine where can be possible use all type platforms, ships, planes, ... and easy to mod

von faust

08-03-10, 02:59 PM

I think that this is the end of Submarine Simulators :cry:

My dream is a new simulator like Dangerous Waters......but this is only a dream :wah::wah:

JU_88

08-03-10, 08:10 PM

Its no suprise the PC game market is dwindling in gerneral.
10 years ago.....
PC games had the visual edge over consoles
Online gameing was PC exclusive.

Now in 2010 Consoles offer online play and match the PC in terms of visuals, couple that with the fact that they are:
a) A 1000 times more user freindly,
b) far more affordable
c) less prone to piracy
-and its really a no brainer.

As for sims, the average gamer is simply not willing to invest the time in to getting to grips with a sim, they want instant gratification.
And of course the cost of games production is in the millions!

So i guess modding is the last remaining ace up the PC gamers sleeve.

Yes, much has changed over the last 10 years.
Those expecting near perfect hardcore sims out of the box for a mere $50 are living in a fantasy world, not the real one.
Evolving sims with DLC (paid downloadable content) are perhaps more finacially viable, the trouble is that the 40 something year old stick in the muds, that buy simulators.....simply refuse to embrace it.

Ill bet that in another 10-20 years, optical media will virtually extinct - along with the phrase 'it is my game / movie / album'.
We will physically own nothing but a piece of 'play back' hardware.

Ducimus

08-03-10, 08:20 PM

Ill bet that in another 10 years, game DVDs & blueRay Discs will be history.

You know what ive been wondering, is how the decline of PC games will effect the computer industry in general. I don't think it's any sort of embellishment to say that gaming, has been the (edit: I should say, "A major" instead of "the ) driving force that has pushed technology standards and barriers. You don't need a bleeding edge video card and a quad core processor for word processors, spread sheets, web browsers, or power point presentations. I suppose its entirely possible that if PC games dies out completely the computer industry in general, while it won't disappear, it could experience a sharp decline, or stagnation.

THE_MASK

08-03-10, 08:29 PM

So maybe computer components manufacturers should pick up where pc game companies are giving up on pc games .

robbo180265

08-03-10, 11:05 PM

Arclight

08-04-10, 05:52 AM

What, the whole "PC gaming is dying" thing? Again? :-?

I think Ducimus nailed it, and that's exactly why it's here to stay. It's the PC gaming that drives the consoles, not the other way around.
Its no suprise the PC game market is dwindling in gerneral.
10 years ago.....
PC games had the visual edge over consoles
Online gameing was PC exclusive.

Now in 2010 Consoles offer online play and match the PC in terms of visuals, couple that with the fact that they are:
a) A 1000 times more user freindly,
b) far more affordable
c) less prone to piracy
-and its really a no brainer.PC still holds the visual edge.

I can see the more user friendly point; that's pretty much the whole reason they are popular. Pop in a disc and play. But nowadays consoles deal with installations as well; they are moving closer and closer to becoming PCs.

Affordable? Only initially. Games are generally 33% more expensive, though Bobby Kotick is pushing really hard to screw PC gamers over in that regard.

Piracy is a bigger factor on PC because it's easier. If PC gaming would disappear, piracy would just become as big a problem on consoles.

Takeda Shingen

08-04-10, 07:42 AM

Is right on the button. PC's will become nothing more than word processors without PC games.

This presupposes that the only thing you can do on a PC is play games. There are thousands of real-world industries to which the personal computer is integral. If the PC gaming industry were to disappear overnight, the demand for big machines would remain.

robbo180265

08-04-10, 09:23 AM

This presupposes that the only thing you can do on a PC is play games. There are thousands of real-world industries to which the personal computer is integral. If the PC gaming industry were to disappear overnight, the demand for big machines would remain.

Well yeah true - there's the IT industry I suppose they will still need top end machines, but other than that I can't see it. I work for Royal Mail and the kind of machine they use has a hamster powering it. I can't think of many industries that would need a high end machine apart from IT and possibly production lines (although I suspect not)

Takeda Shingen

08-04-10, 09:26 AM

Well yeah true - there's the IT industry I suppose they will still need top end machines, but other than that I can't see it. I work for Royal Mail and the kind of machine they use has a hamster powering it. I can't think of many industries that would need a high end machine apart from IT and possibly production lines (although I suspect not)

Well, television, music and film come readily to mind. Not everyone uses a Mac.

robbo180265

08-04-10, 09:33 AM

Well, television, music and film come readily to mind. Not everyone uses a Mac.

Most music is produced on Macs I'm led to believe (coming from Brighton, I know a few DJ's who mix their own work) obviously I don't know this 100% but the DJ's I know use cubase on the Mac.

I have no idea about studios mind you.

Television and films I have no idea about, but would imagine that they would be able to afford high end machines (assuming that PC gaming dies and PC prices soar)

Takeda Shingen

08-04-10, 10:27 AM

Most music is produced on Macs I'm led to believe (coming from Brighton, I know a few DJ's who mix their own work) obviously I don't know this 100% but the DJ's I know use cubase on the Mac.

Not true. The music industry is split almost evenly between the two. And, I actually have Cubase 5 installed on this very PC. A lot of guys like the PC for the very reason that we all know: You can upgrade the hardware as new software is released. This is the major reason that most guys working with film scores prefer the PC over the Mac.

robbo180265

08-04-10, 10:34 AM

Not true. The music industry is split almost evenly between the two. And, I actually have Cubase 5 installed on this very PC. A lot of guys like the PC for the very reason that we all know: You can upgrade the hardware as new software is released. This is the major reason that most guys working with film scores prefer the PC over the Mac.

That's pretty interesting - and makes a lot of sense too.

Bottom line is that I don't think the PC gaming industry will die as long as there is a demand for it. I do think however, that some developers will die or possibly move to consols only.

Who knows what the future holds eh?

Frumpkis

08-04-10, 11:02 AM

And more

X plane (for flight sim)
Orbiter (space, upgraded to the 2010 version)
Arma (well is ground warfare , but is a sim)

Also, don't forget Microsoft Flight Simulator (2004 and FSX). The base product is officially dead, but there is a very healthy 3rd party market still active for planes and scenery. It's not a bad thing to have a 100% "dead" but stable and relatively bug-free platform for 3rd party developers to build on. MSFS probably has another 5 years or so of life, before a change in OS or GPU standards finally kills it off.

X-Plane is growing steadily too, from attrition of MSFS users, or people just looking for something new. I fly X-Plane frequently, and I've probably spent $150 in the last year just on payware plane models and scenery.

Also, Aerosoft (MSFS scenery and plane developer) is working on their own new civilian flight sim, due for initial in 2011 or 2012.

There will always be a civilian PC flight sim market. People like to fly for entertainment, and real-world pilots use it to keep their skills sharp (the pro version of X-Plane is even FAA-certified). It's a niche market, but the people in that niche spend lots of money.

Frumpkis

08-04-10, 11:06 AM

You know what ive been wondering, is how the decline of PC games will effect the computer industry in general. I don't think it's any sort of embellishment to say that gaming, has been the (edit: I should say, "A major" instead of "the ) driving force that has pushed technology standards and barriers. You don't need a bleeding edge video card and a quad core processor for word processors, spread sheets, web browsers, or power point presentations. I suppose its entirely possible that if PC games dies out completely the computer industry in general, while it won't disappear, it could experience a sharp decline, or stagnation.

I don't think so. We're in the middle of a transition from traditional ways of delivering passive entertainment like music, video, and movies to computer-based ways of delivering this media. We have satellite TV in the house, but my family is already spending half its TV-watching time on streaming Netflix via computer. As soon as the selection improves enough, we'll probably ditch the Sat TV and go online-only.

Another thing... people now shoot camera stills and video on digital media, which is stored, edited, and displayed on PC's. Have you ever tried to edit an hour of HDTV-res digital video? I couldn't do it on my last PC. I can only do it on my new, much faster box with a blazing-fast GPU (which is also a great gaming machine).

As long as people want to view, store, and process HD-quality digital media on their computers, we'll have healthy platforms for running games. The main restriction on games developed for PC's will remain what they are now -- the ease-of-use in running games on consoles (no configuration hassles), and the built-in DRM advantage with console games.

Takeda Shingen

08-04-10, 11:10 AM

I don't think so. We're in the middle of a transition from traditional ways of delivering passive entertainment like music, video, and movies to computer-based ways of delivering this media. We have satellite TV in the house, but my family is already spending half its TV-watching time on streaming Netflix via computer. As soon as the selection improves enough, we'll probably ditch the Sat TV and go online-only.

Another thing... people now shoot camera stills and video on digital media, which is stored, edited, and displayed on PC's. Have you ever tried to edit an hour of HDTV-res digital video? I couldn't do it on my last PC. I can only do it on my new, much faster box with a blazing-fast GPU (which is also a great gaming machine).

As long as people want to view, store, and process HD-quality digital media on their computers, we'll have healthy platforms for running games. The main restriction on games developed for PC's will remain what they are now -- the ease-of-use in running games on consoles (no configuration hassles), and the built-in DRM advantage with console games.

I agree, and for the simple reason that the PC has become a fixture of daily modern life. You aren't going to email work from your Playstation. Because of that, everyone is going to continue to own and buy PCs. And so long as people continue to buy them, companies will continue to make games for them.

Ducimus

08-04-10, 11:23 AM

I agree, and for the simple reason that the PC has become a fixture of daily modern life. You aren't going to email work from your Playstation. Because of that, everyone is going to continue to own and buy PCs. And so long as people continue to buy them, companies will continue to make games for them.

I wasn't saying people wouldn't continue to buy PC's. I think what will happen however, is people upgrading or replacing their current PC's, A LOT less often. Personally, I have NEVER upgraded a PC unless it fell behind the games i was trying to run. I have never heard of anyone else, not family, nor friends of family, nor cowokers who have ever upgraded or replaced a PC for any other reason.

And yeah, i suppose someone will be making some PC games, but i strongly suspect it will be very crappy software not worth buying. Existing in a similar vain as the "token minority" on a sitcom. A stroll into any major electronic retail outlet (like the best buy down the street from my apartment), the writing is on the wall. 5 to 7 years ago, the PC game sections for that retailer, at any store, covered both sides of two isles. Today the PC game section is ONE side, of ONE isle, of any store. The console section, each major system has two isles devoted to it. The selection for PC games is crap, and it gets crappier every year.

ON the plus side, i save money i suppose.

longam

08-04-10, 11:47 AM

I currently purchase quad core and medium level video cards systems for workstations. We want everyone to be as productive as possible and not have to wait for software to load.

The new Office programs are getting heavy as more power is available for development. The sales personnel usually run multiple apps at once to track and make calls, some run locally some browser based, and CAD. Fast multitasking is a must. There loading PDF's for quotes and emailing, faxing, printing at a fast pace.

So the office isn't what you think it is anymore, power PC's have a huge market. We upgrade about every 4 years.

MGR1

08-04-10, 11:49 AM

I work for Royal Mail and the kind of machine they use has a hamster powering it.

Sounds like Sainsbury's as well. The computers in the store I work in were only upgraded to XP last year!!:o

As for sims being dead? Enough people do virtual flying to keep the genre going.

Mike.:)

Trevally.

08-04-10, 12:10 PM

I think the PC will die and this will happen when consoles evolve and become upgradable, just like a PC.

Then someone will say " hey we should create a console"

JU_88

08-04-10, 12:22 PM

Arclight

08-04-10, 04:20 PM

Not strictly sims related, but we strayed from that anyway.

PC Gaming Is Having a Great Year, Are You Enjoying It? (http://kotaku.com/5604241/pc-gaming-is-having-a-great-year)

StarCraft II, Napoleon: Total War, Battlefield: Bad Company 2, Mass Effect 2: Love it or hate it, PC gaming seems to be having a great year.

And that's just what has already hit, if you're a PC gamer you've got quite a glut of games to look forward to for the rest of the year. Here's the short list: Civilization V, R.U.S.E, Dead Rising 2, Medal of Honor, Fallout: New Vegas, Fable III, LEGO Universe and Call of Duty: Black Ops

THE_MASK

08-04-10, 05:27 PM

I reckon SH5 has at least 5 years of modding left in it , the mods so far havnt even scratched the surface . So SH5 will go for at least 5 years .

SteelViking

08-04-10, 06:13 PM

I reckon SH5 has at least 5 years of modding left in it , the mods so far havnt even scratched the surface . So SH5 will go for at least 5 years .

I have to agree. Remember everyone, SHIII and IV had tools built specifically for them(S3D). SH5 is just barely starting to get some tools made for it(a big thanks to privateer and Skwas). So yeah, the modding has really just begun.

krashkart

08-04-10, 06:37 PM

Piracy is a bigger factor on PC because it's easier. If PC gaming would disappear, piracy would just become as big a problem on consoles.

Ayuh. There is nothing on the shelves or on the net that is 100% immune to being pirated. If it is available, somebody will want it for free and somebody will find a way to provide it for free. What is almost as bad is when there are companies who proclaim to the world that their almighty new protections are unbreakable. They seem to have forgotten about the Titanic and how unsinkable she was. *whoops!* We silly humans and our fruitless quest for invincibility. :rolleyes:

It was mentioned on the previous page also that PC's do a lot more than just run games... that was the gist of what I picked up on anyway. Indeed. How often do you see a supercluster of gaming consoles crunching data for the USGS? The PC can do a lot more than just run games... it can do a heck of a lot more than a gaming console. It is here to stay for now.

JScones

08-05-10, 02:30 AM

I have to agree. Remember everyone, SHIII and IV had tools built specifically for them(S3D). SH5 is just barely starting to get some tools made for it(a big thanks to privateer and Skwas). So yeah, the modding has really just begun.
Erm, what about the tools that shipped with SH5 that are meant to be specifically for it? Neither SH3 or SH4 had that benefit "out of the box". :hmmm:

jctrnacty

08-05-10, 06:07 AM

Faamecanic

08-05-10, 10:28 AM

The problem of sim genre is not that its hardcore but problem is not sufficient tutorials and explanation of "how does this work and why should i press this"

If every sim would have an interractive step by step tutorial for complete noobs then there could be a lot of simmers today.

Nobody today has enough time to read 250 pages manual a spend one week to try find out what does what.

This is the main reason that kills hardcore sims.

Hardcore sim - no tutorial - dead sim

I have the time (even with working 2 jobs and a BAD golf addiction :rotfl2:) to read 250 pgs of manual and spending a MONTH playing/testing/figuring out how things work. In fact one of my FAVORITE add-on planes for MS Flightsim 2004 and FSX is a ATR-42 add on that is so realistic I printed out the manual for it and it takes TWO 3" binders :)

And the addon was so realistic that the startup procedures (and flight) are JUST LIKE THE REAL THING. I know this because I was a mechanic on them for 3 yrs (hence the screen name faamecanic).

With that said.....Another point to make is the makers of this ATR-42 (as well as MANY other add on aircraft) make HIGH QUALITY airplanes, that are VERY realistic, for $50 or less.....

What this proves is the argument that a niche market can never have high quality sims because it is too cost prohibitive..... I say Bull Excrement to statement.

If your a MS flight sim nut...check out the niche market being satisfied here (everything from Cessna 182's, or a FULL world of REAL airline traffic, all the way up to a FULL detailed 747)

http://www.flight1.com/

Then come back here and tell me how a niche market can never be satisfied without programs costing $1,000's of dollars.

Ducimus

08-05-10, 08:47 PM

Erm, what about the tools that shipped with SH5 that are meant to be specifically for it? Neither SH3 or SH4 had that benefit "out of the box". :hmmm:

I'll give the UI editor the bennfit of the doubt since i know very little of that stuff, but i' will say that the goblin editor sucks the big one when compared to S3D. It's good as a basic controller editor, but not much beyond that from what i could make of it.

Using the goblin editor is like being asked to pop rivet sheet metal together without the bennfit of a drill. Unless the holes are already there, you can't do anything with it. S3D, on the other hand, is a versatile as a skill saw is on a construction site. Can do most anything with it.

mkIpetrucci

08-06-10, 05:57 AM

Gentlemen, I am a new member of the subsim community, although I play SH III since 2007, and after I've discovered GWX, I think that SH III has finally become playable. Regarding SH5, it was a disappointment for me, because I've hoped they will not make the same mistakes they made in the previous titles of the series. But one thing surprised me here as well: Why there is such a large amount of people that are calling SH series "sub-SIMULATOR"? Because none of the titles of the series are simulators, in my opinion. DCS: Black Shark - Ka50 (Russian attack helicopter simulator) can be called a simulator, with almost hundreds of key combination to issue commands, with a manual consisting of a few hundreds pages of reliable accurate technical information, a simulator-game when you must do at least five things only to start the engine of the rotors. So that's why I don't understand why there are some people that put SH series (nice, relaxing hybrid type games, but only with all the mods that people are making) in the "simulator" category, because I have the feeling that SH series are simulators exactly in the way I am the Pope. And I am definitely not.
I don't know, but I think that the owner of this forum and the moderators knows what a simulation game is and that they may instruct the newbies around here in making the difference between a RPG-Arcade game (SH5) and a simulator one (Aces Of The Deep). Considering SH5 a simulator game and seeing the game as one can cause a lot of disappointment for the simulators fan base.

Arclight

08-06-10, 06:33 AM

mkIpetrucci

08-06-10, 06:42 AM

Depends on your perspective. If you take stuff like the Battlestations games into account (Midway (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlestations:_Midway), Pacific (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlestations:_Pacific)), you'll see SH is closer to a sim then an arcade game. Much closer.
Yes, you're right from this point of view, but I tend to compare a game that is viewed like a simulator (SH series) to real simulator games, for hardcore fans, like Black Shark (regarding combat simulators) or Microsoft Flight Simulator X (regarding no-combat simulators), that's why I see the latest UBI release like a RPG-Arcade game, and from what I've read on this forum, it seems that I am not the only one.

Arclight

08-06-10, 06:48 AM

mkIpetrucci

08-06-10, 07:19 AM

It's no more arcade than the previous games (unmodded), but let's leave that aside.

I agree DCS is "more of a sim", but it simulates something completely different. You're the pilot and have to fly alone, so you have to take care of everything. In SH, you're the captain. Captains don't run about the boat turning handles and wheels, or fiddling with torpedo-controls.

As a sim about being a WWII submarine captain, Silent Hunter does a decent job. Sure, they could model every little valve, but that's not the aim of the game.

Don't get me wrong, I enjoy SH III - GWX 3.0 a lot, and even SH4 - TMO 1.9, I was just emphasis two facts:
1. From my point of view, none of the SH series title is a "real" simulator game, even if you say that the captain doesn't need to push all the buttons, I still think they could have done a much better job (as a stock game, I mean), like having a round Earth instead of a plane one, real physics environment interaction and not in the last place, I think they could have done the game less buggy.
2. My expectancies regarding SH5 were higher than the results. After some experience in this area, I've hoped that the publishers would not release a game in such a buggy and incomplete state. I hope that someday there will be a supermod (something like the one GWX team made) that will made the game playable, but I won't bet this will happen. The thing that there are modders out here working on it it's good, but having all those little mods, some of them probably incompatible with each other, is not the best thing possible, but I don't know, it may be a promising start. Only time will tell if somebody will be able to put up a team that will "unite" all the "individual" mods.

Arclight

08-06-10, 07:52 AM

Can't say I disagree. All I argued is that, due to a lack of more terms, it's either arcade or sim. SH is not arcade.

How much of a simulator, or if it's a real simulator, is just arguing semantics. I understand where you're coming from though. ;)

JScones

08-06-10, 08:02 AM

I believe when we last discussed this we narrowed SH5 down to being either a sicade, simulcade, arcadulator or simulacadulator... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=161286

scrapser

08-06-10, 08:22 AM

mkIpetrucci

08-06-10, 08:41 AM

I believe when we last discussed this we narrowed SH5 down to being either a sicade, simulcade, arcadulator or simulacadulator... http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=161286
Sorry, I wasn't aware of such a thread, I was just posting my opinion because I've read the name of the actual thread, making a direct connection between "sim genre" and SH5, which is almost a "blashphemy" from my point of view, it's like somebody is selling beef, but on the label it's written "turkey".

Arclight

08-06-10, 08:52 AM

If you have a better term, please share it. I'm partial to simulacadulator. :hmm2:

Dowly

08-06-10, 08:53 AM

If you have a better term, please share it. I'm partial to simulacadulator. :hmm2:

That's what you say now, come back when you've tried to pronounce that monster pissed drunk. :hmmm:

Arclight

08-06-10, 08:59 AM

In that case I'll probably just yell "troll!" at everyone before keeling over, so it's not much of an issue. :O:

Dowly

08-06-10, 08:59 AM

In that case I'll probably just yell "troll!" before keeling over, so it's not much of an issue. :O:

:hmmm:

Fair enough! :yep:

Badger Finn

08-06-10, 08:17 PM

I'd hate to think what the level of expectation for that product would be. What? No solid brass whiz wheel? No Zeiss Binoculars in the box?! :DL

Yep true very high expectations however just a graphics upgrade would have beeen enough for me 10 years ago! Whens the life sized conning tower arriving eh ? :hmmm:

Ive got some binoculars...

:DL

Nisgeis

08-07-10, 02:16 AM

Hmmm, that reminds me of that old thread where that guy was building something in his house/flat. It was either a bridge or an interior...

JU_88

08-07-10, 05:27 AM

Don't forget Carrier Command! It's overdue (and I'm patient) and should hopefully be one of the epic games to be released in recent times.

Intresting, I looked it up and its sounds good on paper (looks pretty too)
I just wish it was WW2 or Present day rather than futuristic.

Sonarman

08-08-10, 03:40 PM

Interestingly the original Carrier Command was in fact designed as a WWII Pacific theatre naval game but the developers eventually decided on a futuristic scenario as the computers of the day (Amiga/Atari ST/ EGA PC) could not really handle the amount of polygons necessary to properly convey the realistic WWII units with any level of detail. The futuristic units could look like anything the developers wanted however simple and could have additional capabilities. Who knows perhaps we will see some WWii mods for the new game brining the whole thing full circle.

P_Funk

08-08-10, 04:40 PM

What I don't understand about SH5 is how they changed a lot of the features of SH3 and SH4 that the core community loved. Its like "do you even know and understand your own target market?". No dynamic campaign pretty much says they don't know what we love. I played a few missions but I was always into it for the full immersion effect of a campaign where I start and finish in port and go where I want.

SH3 mods spent a lot of time fixing game balance features and improving the hardcore before finally near the end of the game's popular life someone did the interior stuff and opened up the hatch. I think its obvious what the priorities of the sim community are so are the publisher's just pushing the devs to keep taking these games down paths that are a guaranteed failure for the genre?

What is it with sims and clumsy interfaces?

They totally sold out with Starcraft 2 and just made it into an expansion pack with new units and better graphics. Wouldn't SH5 have been more successful if they'd done that? SH3 with better graphics and a more mod friendly engine?