The Glenn Beck/Goldline Scam (large graphic)

[mookiemookie]

Says it all, really.

http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/GoldlineGlennBeck4.jpg

[August]

Good thing Beck isn't an elected official like that paradigm of ethics Charlie Rangle eh?

[mookiemookie]

Good thing Beck isn't an elected official like that paradigm of ethics Charlie Rangle eh?

What's that have to do with Glenn beck helping a company fleece his viewers?

[August]

What's that have to do with Glenn beck helping a company fleece his viewers?

Like you didn't post this thread because he's a right wing pundit. Admit it, if Beck were a left wing shill like Olberman you wouldn't have said a darn thing.

[Oberon]

Dammit, I didn't even get a chance to do an 'in before' on this one :damn:

Still, extremist left or right pundits make me puke anyway, so it's all good. :yep:

[SteamWake]

Goldline is a client of Glenn Beck therefore they are suspect right from the get go is that it?

It also makes them a target. So sure jump on the Beck boycott bandwagon !!!

The first three info boxes .. what there is untrue?

Of course Mr. Beck being the highly influential force on the world market that he is can affect and control gold pricing. :doh:

Goldline would like to set the record straight ;)

http://www.goldline.com/goldlinenews?term=beck+goldline&refcd=GO000000107799525s_beck_goldline&tsacr=GO6098987523&gclid=COfMo-XRjqMCFUxZ2godDDXnTQ

[mookiemookie]

It's hard to argue with basic math showing that people are being scammed.

[Tribesman]

It's hard to argue with basic math showing that people are being scammed.
A fool and his money are soon parted. Since goldline chose to target people who listen to Beck they spotted a ripe and ready market of fools, fair play to them.

[SteamWake]

A fool and his money are soon parted. Since goldline chose to target people who listen to Beck they spotted a ripe and ready market of fools, fair play to them.

Heh... see you in November :salute:

[Aramike]

Honestly, I have nothing against Beck ... he can be mildly entertaining. However, almost ALL of the noise right now surrounding gold is a scam, and shame on Beck (and anyone else) for being part of it.

[nikimcbee]

Honestly, I have nothing against Beck ... he can be mildly entertaining. However, almost ALL of the noise right now surrounding gold is a scam, and shame on Beck (and anyone else) for being part of it.

How so? (the scam part regarding gold)

[mookiemookie]

How so? (the scam part regarding gold)

Cash4Gold's a scam: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2009/02/beneath-cash4go.html

[Tribesman]

Heh... see you in November
November??????
Oh thats when you change some of the muppets for different muppets and become happy for about 10 minutes before it dawns on you that you got a bunch of muppets again so you look forward enthusiasticly to the next election after that where you again change one bunch of muppets for some more muppets.

[ETR3(SS)]

November??????
Oh thats when you change some of the muppets for different muppets and become happy for about 10 minutes before it dawns on you that you got a bunch of muppets again so you look forward enthusiasticly to the next election after that where you again change one bunch of muppets for some more muppets.And so the cycle repeats. The only thing that changes are the faces.

[nikimcbee]

Cash4Gold's a scam: http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2009/02/beneath-cash4go.html

Now that, I wouldn't doubt.

[Takeda Shingen]

And so the cycle repeats. The only thing that changes are the faces.

Ding. Ding. Cigars for this man!

[nikimcbee]

So if mookie wins the the FFL this year, just to spite him, the prize will be a goldline coin... from Glen Beck.:har:

[mookiemookie]

So if mookie wins the the FFL this year, just to spite him, the prize will be a goldline coin... from Glen Beck.:har:

:rotfl2: I'll take the tshirt!

[SteamWake]

And so the cycle repeats. The only thing that changes are the faces.

Lets hope you are wrong this time.

I'm praying for a 'change' we cannot continue down this path or we will be all screwed.

Hey speaking of math...



http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/116xx/doc11659/07-27_Debt_FiscalCrisis_Brief.pdf

But yea lets argue about some talk show host 'fleecing' his listening audiance.

[Snestorm]

November??????
Oh thats when you change some of the muppets for different muppets and become happy for about 10 minutes before it dawns on you that you got a bunch of muppets again so you look forward enthusiasticly to the next election after that where you again change one bunch of muppets for some more muppets.

On that we agree.

[Aramike]

How so? (the scam part regarding gold)I was referring to what mookie pointed out (along with similar services), plus all the "sell your gold" advertisements. If you're not buying and selling direct at wholesale prices, you're getting ripped off most likely.

The problem with dealing in precious metals at all is that you are responsible for transporting and storing it. If you use a service for it, they are going to take a large cut off the top, which, even with the boom in price, will be hard to make up.

Finally, gold isn't accepted as currency in most cases so it only has value if you can find someone willing to buy it. While the market may be high, finding someone to pay that price is another story.

[TLAM Strike]

If you are really in the market for cheap gold find some old circuit boards (if you are like me you have a closet full of them) and melt them down in your back yard. You will find all sorts of valuable metals in it! :up:












:O::O::O:

[antikristuseke]

Most of it is just copper though, with trace amounts of gold and platinum.

[SteamWake]

Most of it is just copper though, with trace amounts of gold and platinum.

and zinc, cadnium, tin, tantalum, and on and on 'heavy' metals.

I dont think melting down circuit boards would be a very healthy exercise. The amount of gold is definatly not worth the effort.

I know that commercial facilitys do it but its for enviromental reasons not for a profit.

[TLAM Strike]

I dont think melting down circuit boards would be a very healthy exercise. The amount of gold is definatly not worth the effort. Yea I was joking. Its very dangerous, but it doesn't stop people in China and India from doing it.

I know that commercial facilitys do it but its for enviromental reasons not for a profit. Funny I have a family friend who works at one that does that for profit, but its not their only operation they do jewelry, industrial, and government jobs.

[SteamWake]

I found my own infographic !!!

http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh312/UlteriorModem/catsforgold1.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh312/UlteriorModem/catsforgold2.jpg
http://i259.photobucket.com/albums/hh312/UlteriorModem/catsforgold3.jpg

[mookiemookie]

Needs more teary-eyed Glenn Beck.

[The Third Man]

I missed where Glenn Beck mandated buying gold from any source.

[Aramike]

I missed where Glenn Beck mandated buying gold from any source.He hasn't.

However, I'm quite sure that, say Chris Matthews was advocating gold and doing so using his economic theories, he'd be villified by the right for misleading people.

I have no problem with Beck doing this, by the way. If people aren't smart enough to realize that it is their responsibility to be informed consumers, than that's THEIR fault - not Beck's.

[mookiemookie]

I have no problem with Beck doing this, by the way. If people aren't smart enough to realize that it is their responsibility to be informed consumers, than that's THEIR fault - not Beck's.

Agreed, but the whole point to the story is that Beck is either too dumb to realize he's helping Goldline take advantage of his audience, or he's actively helping them to do so.

Idiot or con artist. Either way, screw him.

[The Third Man]

Agreed, but the whole point to the story is that Beck is either too dumb to realize he's helping Goldline take advantage of his audience, or he's actively helping them to do so.

Idiot or con artist. Either way, screw him.

That presuposes Glenn Beck's audience is stupid. Many may be , but it dosen't make GlennB beck any more responsible than it does Barack Obama for selling a $41,000 electric car no one wants.

[August]

I listened to Paul Harvey hawk JB Weld on his news program for years and never thought the less of him for it. Same thing with Marlin Perkins using a nature show to peddle insurance. It goes with the territory.

[Sailor Steve]

As did Bill Clinton renting out nights in the Lincoln Bedroom. If it's not illegal then it's okay, whether we like it or not. Being famous or powerful comes with some perks, and if they're willing to pay, why not?

[Aramike]

Agreed, but the whole point to the story is that Beck is either too dumb to realize he's helping Goldline take advantage of his audience, or he's actively helping them to do so.

Idiot or con artist. Either way, screw him.Or he's just reading the script because he's paid too - like pretty much every other personality in America.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Agreed, but the whole point to the story is that Beck is either too dumb to realize he's helping Goldline take advantage of his audience, or he's actively helping them to do so.

Idiot or con artist. Either way, screw him.

The same could be said of a lot of people and interest groups; just replace "audience" with "taxpayers".


I'm not a big fan of Beck anymore, as he has a tendency to go overboard, even when espousing libertarian ideals and, coming from me, that's saying something. Perhaps the only thing more annoying is that I often find myself in the position of having not only to make and defend my own arguments, but to dismiss or modify his as well when people equate them with mine. I'm quite capable of creating my own stupid or invalid arguments without having Beck's dumped on the pile, thank you.
Even so, I prefer him, however fraudulent, to idiots and con artists who both attempt to defraud me and, failing that, simply take my gains by force.

Beck puts himself and his views and whatever products or services he chooses to support out there for everyone to see, regardless of endorsement or ridicule. I can respect that. It takes courage to do what Beck does. Compare his on-air antics to say, what my union does and you'd have a lot more respect for him as well.

The Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers and Trainmen spends tens of millions of dollars every year convincing Washington to steal your money and give it to us because we have posters of our members with babies and pretty mothers. We're red-blooded, hard-working, family-type Americans who need a little help from our fellow citizens because corporate greed would otherwise force us into hardship. Read that sentence again, and this time roll your eyes and perform the "wanking-off" hand motion to get an idea of how much sarcasm should be packed into it.
You could also come visit my relatively lazy, childless, wifeless ass to get some perspective. I'll take you to meet my similarly worthless co-workers. Hope you don't mind that we go behind your backs and steal a little of your American dream to make the one we sell to Washington achievable.

Rather than get pissed off at Beck defrauding lazy idiots into entering a detrimental transaction, perhaps we should be pissed off at the multitude of special interests who don't bother asking for your money before they take it and the legislators and judiciaries who make it all possible.

[mookiemookie]

Fraud is fraud, no matter how you want to explain it away. It should be pointed out.

[NeonSamurai]

I've never been a fan of Beck myself, nor any other so called reporter that uses the emotional pathway to convey a message rather than the logical/rational route. This is the route con men use as it can bypass thought and reason. It is also surprisingly (to me anyways) effective, and often bypasses rational thought.

God I miss the days of objective (ie non subjective) news presentation. The days before all these scumsucking 'news reporters' came along daring to tell me how I should think about an event, and spinning the living heck out of it (not to mention following the rating's events for days to weeks with 'exclusive' coverage).

[UnderseaLcpl]

Fraud is fraud, no matter how you want to explain it away. It should be pointed out.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a second. We need to get on the same page, here. I never said fraud was ok, I simply said that fraud amongst idiots was preferable to theft and coercion. I totally agree that it should be pointed out. Fraud is anathema to a libertarian.

My point was that voluntary acceptance of fraud by idiots beats the hell out of enforced fraud.

[SteamWake]

If its blatent fraud then prosecute him.

If its not sit around and discuss it on an interwebs forum and try to make it seem so.

[Torvald Von Mansee]

Good thing Beck isn't an elected official like that paradigm of ethics Charlie Rangle eh?

Relevance?

[SteamWake]

Relevance?

There both accused of questionable ethics?

[Sailor Steve]

Fraud is fraud, no matter how you want to explain it away. It should be pointed out.
But did you point it out because it's fraud, or because it's fraud perpetrated by someone you don't like? That's the difference between honesty and politics.

[mookiemookie]

But did you point it out because it's fraud, or because it's fraud perpetrated by someone you don't like? That's the difference between honesty and politics.

Probably a bit of both. :O:

He's held up to be infallible by a large segment of people. Given that, I think it's pretty shady to take advantage of people that believe that about you. He's using his position to enrich himself unfairly. Why does that not deserve to be called out?

Would I have the same low opinion if, say, Rachel Maddow did something like this? Absolutely. Would I make the same comments? Absolutely.

[Sailor Steve]

Good to hear. I don't mind seeing someone called out for this type of thing. I only object to the number of people around here who only see their side of the question.

"I'm right and you're stupid!"

[August]

I've yet to meet anyone who considers Glenn Beck to be "infallible". Not even close. Most conservatives I talk to see Beck as overly dramatic and slightly crazy.

[mookiemookie]

Good to hear. I don't mind seeing someone called out for this type of thing. I only object to the number of people around here who only see their side of the question.

"I'm right and you're stupid!"

Hah! Well this also has to do with economics. Since economics is my job, I take a special interest in it. When someone screams about "omg hyperinflation! buy gold now!" I just have to shake my head - deflation is the problem they're trying to stave off now.

I've yet to meet anyone who considers Glenn Beck to be "infallible". Not even close. Most conservatives I talk to see Beck as overly dramatic and slightly crazy.

You haven't met my parents then. :rotfl2:

[SteamWake]

You haven't met my parents then. :rotfl2:

OMG your parents are conservataves? That actually explains alot :salute:

[mookiemookie]

OMG your parents are conservataves? That actually explains alot :salute:

:haha: Thanks to my mom, my inbox probably has more "Obama is a secret Muslim" emails than yours does.

[Platapus]

:haha: Thanks to my mom, my inbox probably has more "Obama is a secret Muslim" emails than yours does.

Sounds like my father. I used to think he was a pretty good thinker, and perhaps he was, but now that he is pushing 80, he has changed. He forwards to me dozens of these type of E-mails. Most of them as so patently inaccurate that don't even bother responding.

Sometimes I think he is losing it in his old age. :nope:

[Sailor Steve]

Don't get me started! Oops, too late! :rotfl2:

My dad is 82. I credit him (and my mom) with giving my my sense of humor. But...

A few months ago I called him. My stepmom told me he was in the shower. I said I could call back in a few minutes, but she insisted it was alright. So I could hear him shivering in the shower while we talked. More than once I said "Dad, dry off and get dressed. I'll call you back in a couple of minutes", and more than once I could hear him shivering some more as he said "No, it's alright."

I know getting old makes you forget things, but I never knew it actually makes you crazy. :dead:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Hah! Well this also has to do with economics. Since economics is my job, I take a special interest in it. When someone screams about "omg hyperinflation! buy gold now!" I just have to shake my head - deflation is the problem they're trying to stave off now.


Is it? I'm not so sure. Shortage of liquid assets is the problem they're trying to stave off now. I think you're equating deflation with remedies for insolubility, which is incorrect. Money is only worth what the goods, investments, and services associated with it are worth. What Washington is doing now is trying to pump money into the system with nothing to back it up in the hopes that the additional supply of currency will galvanize the market, which is pure Keynesian stupidity. Even worse, there are number of state programs recieving that new currency, and as we all know, the state never turns a profit on anything, ever. If deflation was the problem there would be GDP growth accompanied by a reduction in currency supply, which hasn't happened in quite some time. Rate of inflation has been fluctuating between .25% and 5% over the past few years, while real GDP and GDP growth have shrunk.

For the time being, the comparitive weakness of foreign markets (which we ruined through sheer economic pervasiveness) has held the US and the dollar aloft, but sooner or later it will be time to pay the piper. That currency is going to have to be reconciled with some kind of economic product sooner or later, and when that time comes, there will be nothing to exchange. Thus, the currency will lose value.

[mookiemookie]

For the time being, the comparitive weakness of foreign markets (which we ruined through sheer economic pervasiveness) has held the US and the dollar aloft, but sooner or later it will be time to pay the piper. That currency is going to have to be reconciled with some kind of economic product sooner or later, and when that time comes, there will be nothing to exchange. Thus, the currency will lose value.

With U-6 unemployment around 15 to 18% and the average hours worked in the basement, the resulting lack of wage inflation pressure means deflation, not inflation.

Simply put, If no one has money to spend we cannot have CPI inflation.

[Aramike]

Fraud is fraud, no matter how you want to explain it away. It should be pointed out.Selling a valuable at a mark up is not fraud - its business.

[mookiemookie]

Selling a valuable at a mark up is not fraud - its business.

From the graphic:

"It's not illegal to overcharge customers...The problem is that Goldline is taking would-be gold investors and turning them into coin collectors without their knowledge."

That's misrepresentation and fraud.

[Aramike]

From the graphic:

"It's not illegal to overcharge customers...The problem is that Goldline is taking would-be gold investors and turning them into coin collectors without their knowledge."

That's misrepresentation and fraud.The phrase you quote, in and of itself, is an opinion based in semantics - not anywhere near something that could be legally considered fraud. In fact, that graphic is full of selective paraphrasing and semantics, and in certainly not demonstrable of any actual fraudulant activity.

I agree with you that Goldline is a crappy investment, but it is providing specifically what it and Beck claims it provides - for a cost. I also agree that Beck discredits himself to an extent by promoting the product, but that falls well short of fraud.

My point is that, in the real world, this is what well-known personalities do - advertise products that make money for the companies paying them to do so.

...and if actual, major fraud was your major concern, I find it odd how the example you choose to create a thread for was Glen Beck promoting a LEGAL product while there was no mention of any admonishment of Charlie Rangle...

My point being that there are much bigger fish to fry that you are no doubt aware of, but you choose only to go after those fish which you disagree with.

Why?

[mookiemookie]

My point being that there are much bigger fish to fry that you are no doubt aware of, but you choose only to go after those fish which you disagree with.

Why?

And round and round we go. I couldn't care less about Rangel. He's been shown and proven time after time to be a scumbag. This stuff's been going on since 2008 with the internet site scandal and the Caribbean trips and whatnot. Old news to me. I hope he's booted out of office.

I'll copy and paste my answers to the exact same question from just a few posts back on the thread.

Probably a bit of both. :O:

He's held up to be infallible by a large segment of people. Given that, I think it's pretty shady to take advantage of people that believe that about you. He's using his position to enrich himself unfairly. Why does that not deserve to be called out?

Would I have the same low opinion if, say, Rachel Maddow did something like this? Absolutely. Would I make the same comments? Absolutely.

Hah! Well this also has to do with economics. Since economics is my job, I take a special interest in it. When someone screams about "omg hyperinflation! buy gold now!" I just have to shake my head - deflation is the problem they're trying to stave off now.



I find economics scams far more interesting than the same old garden variety political ones.


I agree with you that Goldline is a crappy investment, but it is providing specifically what it and Beck claims it provides - for a cost.

Except it's not. It's providing collectables. Not commodity gold.

[UnderseaLcpl]

With U-6 unemployment around 15 to 18% and the average hours worked in the basement, the resulting lack of wage inflation pressure means deflation, not inflation.

Simply put, If no one has money to spend we cannot have CPI inflation.

Can't we? Why not? The inflation rate over the past 3 years says otherwise, as does the Index. It's not just about wages, it's about the total currency supply.

I figure you must know something I don't, because from where I'm standing it still looks like you've confused stimulatory Keynesian currency injection with combating deflation. If deflation was a problem, we'd see a reduction in the overall currency supply while GDP grew. What we have now is the opposite; a reduced GDP with a low growth rate and a rapidly expanding currency supply. Don't take my word for it, look at the the value of the USD against precious metals. Look at the insane state of the futures markets. Investors seem to know that they have a high inflation rate to beat if they're going to make any money, why don't you?

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, I'm just questioning your evaluation of the situation. It seems wrong to me. Then again, economics is your job while it's just kind of a hobby for me, so you may well know something I don't.

[mookiemookie]

Can't we? Why not? The inflation rate over the past 3 years says otherwise, as does the Index. It's not just about wages, it's about the total currency supply.

I figure you must know something I don't, because from where I'm standing it still looks like you've confused stimulatory Keynesian currency injection with combating deflation. If deflation was a problem, we'd see a reduction in the overall currency supply while GDP grew. What we have now is the opposite; a reduced GDP with a low growth rate and a rapidly expanding currency supply. Don't take my word for it, look at the the value of the USD against precious metals. Look at the insane state of the futures markets. Investors seem to know that they have a high inflation rate to beat if they're going to make any money, why don't you?

I'm not trying to be a jerk or anything, I'm just questioning your evaluation of the situation. It seems wrong to me. Then again, economics is your job while it's just kind of a hobby for me, so you may well know something I don't.

A few reasons why deflation is more of a fear than inflation. I'm not at work, so forgive me if I can't insert a bunch of nifty Bloomberg charts here:

A decreasing money supply multiplier (velocity or how often $1 is spent) as well as as a plateau in money supply growth :
http://www.ritholtz.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/MULT_Max_630_378.png

tight credit availability

flat wage rates

commodity price decreases - check out the price of lumber since April, for example: http://www.nahb.org/generic.aspx?genericContentID=527

a double dip housing recession - worst June on record for new home sales, months of supply on the market creeping back up:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_pMscxxELHEg/TEhQHj1y46I/AAAAAAAAI4A/hltEaZySRu0/s320/EHSJuneMonths.jpg

restaurants are reeling -
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pMscxxELHEg/TFQdn7rC3lI/AAAAAAAAI9A/flXkvdgMi_k/s320/RPIJune2010.jpg

Truck tonnage is rolling over. you work in railroads, you should be more aware than I am of the trends in cargo - I imagine you've seen declines lately :

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_pMscxxELHEg/TFIWLhkaFMI/AAAAAAAAI74/9JCunMmOkOQ/s400/ATATruckingJune.jpg

hotel occupancy is having the worst year since the Great Depression

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_pMscxxELHEg/TFG42YcBTKI/AAAAAAAAI7w/AMRnIVqMZrg/s320/HotelOccupancyJuly29.jpg

Check out the retailers comments in the Fed Beige Book reports - all of the anecdotal evidence bodes terrible for retail sales: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-28/recovery-slowed-in-some-areas-of-u-s-in-past-two-months-fed-survey-shows.html

[Aramike]

Except it's not. It's providing collectables. Not commodity gold. All gold is "commodity gold".

[UnderseaLcpl]

I hate to be a pest and drag this up but I'm afraid you've lost me again, Mark. Be a sport and let me run through this whole thing again, if you don't mind.

To begin, I understand why deflation is bad. I don't know about you, but I'm one of those who believes the Great Depression was exacerbated by the Fed allowing the money supply to contract too quickly. I would also agree that it can be worse than inflation.

However, what I'm seeing now is not deflation, but inflation to the point where it appears that the Fed has lost control of the money supply. You have that graph of the M1 multiplier, which shows a clear loss in velocity. That means that the most liquid currency supply is not being used, right? That's to be expected in a recession, as is everything else you illustrated. (And just in case you were wondering, rail traffic is severely depressed as well. We're actually beginning to experience negative growth in staple bulk goods like coal and grain) With reduced demand and productivity comes a reduction in m1 supply. However, the m3 supply has greatly increased, partly because of hoarding and partly because of printing/bonds. This tells me that m3 is not being converted into m1.

Before I continue, please let me know if I've got that part right.

[The Third Man]

Fraud is fraud, no matter how you want to explain it away. It should be pointed out.

Thank you for letting us know. But stupid is also stupid. If it sounds too good to be true it probally is. Obama should have teached you that.

[FIREWALL]

If people are stupid they, deserve to be took. Maybe they'll wish they stayed awake in school.

[mookiemookie]

If people are stupid they, deserve to be took. Maybe they'll wish they stayed awake in school.

Bullpucky. The greater sin is not that someone was gullible, naive or too trusting - the greater sin is taking advantage of people, defrauding and misleading them. That kind of blame the victim attitude is one step away from saying "she was asking to be raped because she was dressed that way."

[UnderseaLcpl]

Bullpucky. The greater sin is not that someone was gullible, naive or too trusting - the greater sin is taking advantage of people, defrauding and misleading them. That kind of blame the victim attitude is one step away from saying "she was asking to be raped because she was dressed that way."


That's a bit of a strecth, don't you think? People are often motivated to accept deals that are " too good to be true" because they are lazy, stupid, and blinded by greed. That's rather different than rape, which is completely involuntary. I hate fraud as much as you do, it's anathema to libertarians, but there's a difference between being defrauded and defrauding yourself, especially when the intent of the buyer is to defraud the seller. Watch an infomercial. Do you really believe that people who buy those products are motivated by anything other than an irrational belief that they are getting a "great deal" for only $19.99 against a product with a retail value of $99.99 or whatever number they stick up there? How can society ever be responsible for the actions of people who are just as selfish as the people who purportedly take advantage of them? Something doesn't add up there, and the missing element in the equation is self-interest. People are all too ready to blame the self-interest of others for their own misfortune, but when you flip the equation around and put the self-interest of the self-interested before the self-interest of the productive, you end up with a failed industrial or commercial sector. Even then, the self-interest doesn't stop. They demand that others make up for their shortfalls and pay their way, ridiculously, out of some other motivation than self-interest.

Even if the greater sin was to defraud or mislead people who are idiots, which itself makes a kind of social-Darwinist case, what case can you make for people with legislative power whose very existence depends upon defrauding and misleading people by virute of the system in which they are selected? You do realize that in attempting to prevent voluntary and often self-imposed fraud that you are promoting fraud of a greater and legalized nature, right?

If you'll allow me to be frank, I'll posit the idea that you have been mislead and defrauded by people who have a vested self-interest in making people believe that they have been mistreateed in the amazingly consistent goal of forcing others to give them money, through direct or indirect means.

[Dowly]

If people are stupid they, deserve to be took. Maybe they'll wish they stayed awake in school.

Exactly. If you believe in something as stupid as this, then I don't care if you have lost all your money, quite the opposite, I will laugh at your face for being so fricking stupid. Grow some brains, people! :nope:

[antikristuseke]

If all women were smart, who would sleep with us? :(
On a more serious note, I agree with the above two posters, while it is distasteful, it is your own damned faul if you fall for something like this.

[Platapus]

It is difficult to swindle an honest man. :yep:

[FIREWALL]

Bullpucky. The greater sin is not that someone was gullible, naive or too trusting - the greater sin is taking advantage of people, defrauding and misleading them. That kind of blame the victim attitude is one step away from saying "she was asking to be raped because she was dressed that way."

Give it a break. :roll:

And rape is a ignorant comparison. You dropped the ball on this one. :haha:

[mookiemookie]

Undersea-

Still workin on your economics dissertation. :up:

[mookiemookie]

A decreasing money supply multiplier (velocity or how often $1 is spent) as well as as a plateau in money supply growth :
[/IMG]

This is deflationary as per the quantity theory of money states that M (money supply) x V (velocity) = P (general level of prices) x Y (general level of economic output, or GDP). We'll concern ourselves with the m, v and p, primarily. Now, if you take the general laymans (asking you to go out on a limb with me here, I know) definition of inflation, being a sustained and general increase in prices, then you see how lower velocity can be deflationary. M3 money supply is shrinking, meaning that while there's a boatload of it out there, banks just are not lending it out. A classic liquidity trap. http://shadowstats.com/imgs/sgs-m3.gif Without money supply reaching the consumer, and velocity shrinking, you'll see that's going to necessarily weigh down GDP and the general level of prices.

tight credit availability See above

flat wage rates Wage inflation is the classical harbinger of CPI inflation. (I'm using CPI inflation as shorthand to mean the prices you can go down to any store and observe - not necessarily the CPI index itself, which has been shown to be manipulated and monkeyed with for the last 50 years). Getting back to it - wage inflation is exactly what it sounds like. An increase in the wages workers are taking home. This is very low right now due to the elevated levels of unemployment - times are tough economically, and employers don't have the cash flow to be giving generous raises. Furthermore, workers have no leverage to push for raises - they're easily replaced by someone from the unemployment pool who will do their job at the same wage or cheaper. So without an increase in the dollars being taken home by workers, there can't be an increase in the amount of dollars chasing goods out there.

commodity price decreases - check out the price of lumber since April, for example: http://www.nahb.org/generic.aspx?genericContentID=527 The effects of deflation at work. Lower demand, lower velocity, fewer dollars chasing the same commodities.

a double dip housing recession - worst June on record for new home sales, months of supply on the market creeping back up:
By and large, most American wealth is concentrated in the housing market. Falling home values eat directly into personal wealth. The wealth effect (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wealth_effect) kicks in (or more accurately, drops out.) and consumer confidence is eroded. Seeing as consumer spending on average comprises 2/3rds of GDP, you'll see downward pressure on the Y portion of our formula.

restaurants are reeling -
Another example of deflation at work. In real terms - if you're a restaurant owner fighting to just get customers through the door, you're not going to be raising prices.

Truck tonnage is rolling over. you work in railroads, you should be more aware than I am of the trends in cargo - I imagine you've seen declines lately Lower economic output from reduced demand and full inventories - if you're a retailer and you can't sell what you've got, you're not ordering more to be delivered.

hotel occupancy is having the worst year since the Great Depression
Same as above.

Check out the retailers comments in the Fed Beige Book reports - all of the anecdotal evidence bodes terrible for retail sales: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-07-28/recovery-slowed-in-some-areas-of-u-s-in-past-two-months-fed-survey-shows.html

Same as above.