Love hurts

[Skybird]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-10751899

A mass panic at the love parade in Duisburg killed at least 15 during a stampede in a tunnel. the festival was decided to run on to avoid another, even bigger panic when breaking off too abruptly. Instead, people left in small groups, with many still partying and not even knowing what was happening.

The inner town of Duisburg currently faces pure chaos due to masses of people trying to move out. The central train station has broken down. Cellphone networks also collapsed.

[Jimbuna]

Beaten by nearly an hour (topic wise but not detail) :DL

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=172814

Oh, and a real tragedy :nope:

[Skybird]

I wanted to avoid that thread, due to the quoted comments.

[Tchocky]

Drove through Duisburg this morning, feels weird.

Horrible thing to happen, reminds me of Roskilde

[Jimbuna]

I wanted to avoid that thread, due to the quoted comments.

Yeah...understandable :yep:

[Schroeder]

I never thought I would see something like that in Germany.:dead:
Absolutely tragic.:nope:

[Skybird]

Now 18 dead, 100 injured.

Massive accusations start to get fired at the organisers, they chose a place with just one entrance, that was big enough for only 350 thousand - although they expected more than 1 million from beginning on. Estimations say in the end there have been 2 million. Warnings to the police that the situation in the entrance tunnel became critical, were dismissed with pointing repsonsibility for that back to the organisers. Duisburg has a population of 490 thousand

[Skybird]

Murderous dilletantism:

what incompetent a#####e considered it to be a good idea to make this 300m-long tunnel the only entry/exit option through which the 1 million people the planners expected had to press in and out? In the end there should have been close to 2 million people visiting the event - all of them moving through this :

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6959/20774257.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/i/20774257.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

I am no expert for panic research, but even me as a layman immediately can identify the problem and the risk from photos of the same place before the event, when there were almost no people around. But the panic analyst of the organising committee claims they could not have forseen that...? They received warnings by people who escaped the tunnel hours before the disaster, and local residents called the police telling them that if they try to bring so many people through that bottleneck, that this necessarily must end in a disaster sooner or later.

Such murderous incompetence and intentional naivety makes me very angry. Those forming and willing these decisions should be sued for man slaughter.

Wie kann man nur so saublöd sein. Some people should be forbidden to procreate.

Last official numbers: 19 dead, 340 physically injured, scores of hundreds traumatised to differing degrees.

[Alex]

love parade

Decadence.
In the US yes, but I would have never thought that sort of thing could happen in Germany.
Poor people...

[Skybird]

Decadence.

I am no fan of the love parade. I hate rave music. I do not like taking drugs in public, and getting drunk at noontime. However, many people visiting that event are not like that, they just want to do what they consider to be a big party. I still do not like it, but that is no reason why I should not see the tragedy here, even if you always have to take into account the effects of mass panics when you go to a place with hundreds of thousands of people in the audience - in this case, the outcome was not just becasue an inherent risk that can only be minimised but cannot completely be avoided, but it was provoked by the organisers.

I also oppose the dirty comments that were quoted in the other thread, and that you can find in the internet about pigs and homosexuals finding their well-deserved end. The Love Parade is a rave party, not the Christopher Street Day. And concerning the latter, I still wpould not will, or even wish them death and panic. Just that they would stop to provoke with their freaky behavior that is a disgrace to their cause and an offence to many homosexuals who dispise the CSD right for what it is: a parade of idiotic, provokating freaks who think they are the navel of the universe and must violate cultural taboos in our society, no matter the cost.

[Alex]

I concur.

[Jimbuna]

Murderous dilletantism:

what incompetent a#####e considered it to be a good idea to make this 300m-long tunnel the only entry/exit option through which the 1 million people the planners expected had to press in and out? In the end there should have been close to 2 million people visiting the event - all of them moving through this :

http://img146.imageshack.us/img146/6959/20774257.jpg (http://img146.imageshack.us/i/20774257.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

I am no expert for panic research, but even me as a layman immediately can identify the problem and the risk from photos of the same place before the event, when there were almost no people around. But the panic analyst of the organising committee claims they could not have forseen that...? They received warnings by people who escaped the tunnel hours before the disaster, and local residents called the police telling them that if they try to bring so many people through that bottleneck, that this necessarily must end in a disaster sooner or later.

Such murderous incompetence and intentional naivety makes me very angry. Those forming and willing these decisions should be sued for man slaughter.

Wie kann man nur so saublöd sein. Some people should be forbidden to procreate.

Last official numbers: 19 dead, 340 physically injured, scores of hundreds traumatised to differing degrees.


Must agree here Sky.....incompetence of the highest order/degree.

The best chance of not seeing a repeat is to identify those responsible and make an example of them :nope:

[Tribesman]

I also oppose the dirty comments that were quoted in the other thread
Yet some of them mirror Skys regular comments.

Some people should be forbidden to procreate.


If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck.......
So is it reading from that old book again?

[tater]

Decadence.
In the US yes, but I would have never thought that sort of thing could happen in Germany.
Poor people...

WTF.

Why would this happen more in the US, exactly? I cannot imagine a US city Fire Marshall allowing this event with no emergency exits. Stampede deaths in the US are rare, and tend to actually happen in large venues far better designed for egress that that place (an accident waiting to happen, WTF were they thinking?)—like stadiums. In that case, it's just panic, all it takes is LOCAL crowding to result in injuries or deaths.

It's amazing the toll at that tunnel is as low as it is, frankly.

[August]

WTF.

Why would this happen more in the US, exactly? I cannot imagine a US city Fire Marshall allowing this event with no emergency exits. Stampede deaths in the US are rare, and tend to actually happen in large venues far better designed for egress that that place (an accident waiting to happen, WTF were they thinking?)—like stadiums. In that case, it's just panic, all it takes is LOCAL crowding to result in injuries or deaths.

It's amazing the toll at that tunnel is as low as it is, frankly.

Agreed. I'm surprised that the German government doesn't already have regulations prohibiting this. Yeah the organizers are at fault but who approved their permits?

[Schroeder]

Agreed. I'm surprised that the German government doesn't already have regulations prohibiting this. Yeah the organizers are at fault but who approved their permits?
There are regulations against that and I'm at a loss why no one intervened much earlier. Either they told whoever is responsible for giving the permission that a lot less people would come or that guy simply had no idea of his job. In any case I'm surprised that neither the firefighters nor the police stopped this before it got out of hand. Totally insane!:down:

[tater]

The fire marshall here in ABQ won't let them put crayon drawings up on the windows at kindergarten, lol. They'd never approve that venue.

[Skybird]

Agreed. I'm surprised that the German government doesn't already have regulations prohibiting this. Yeah the organizers are at fault but who approved their permits?
The "Stadtrat" (=city council, I think). the police later failed when warning were coming in, but they ignored them, saying that they (the police) are not responsible, but that the organisers are.

The state attorney has started investigations over charges of "fahrlässige Tötung" (=murder by negligence, I think).

The state government of Northrhine Westphalia maybe also has a share in this. The Ruhrgebiet, once the heart of the German coal mining industry, has declared 2010 a year to show that the region has successfully transformed from being a mining complex into a region of tourism and - fanfares! - culture economy, of which the love parade I suppose was meant to be a prominent example in a number of public events that are meant to "celebrate" this new Ruhrgebiet culture throughout 2010. In fact, the love parade in Duisburg is claimed to be just a massive sponsoring event for McFit by the original founder of the love poarade ocncept, "Dr. Motte".

Yeah, drugs, alcohol and techno. Brave new "culture". Bach, Rilke and Friedrich must turn in their graves when being minimised by calling this modern stuff "Kultur". Today, lining up six men on the stage, all naked, already qualifies for being called a new "culture of theatre", for the simple fact that they are naked. In ten years I will be called a great artist and an icon of modern culture for just having the face that I have.

It has been declared during a press conference, that there will be no more love parades. Duisburg was the last one, after it already had been abandoned by the orginal host, Berlin, where it took place for many years. The original inventor and founder of the love parade has withdrawn and left it behind already four years go, in anger.

[Sailor Steve]

Yet some of them mirror Skys regular comments.
1) The other thread was about the nasty things people write. This thread is about the tragedy itself.

2) Is there some valid reason for you to turn this into an insult/attack fest on another member? It makes you sound like the people that other thread was talking about.

3) Since you already brought it up, can you show specific examples of "Sky's regular comments" that are like the posts on that thread, or is this just random trolling?

[Skybird]

Save your breath, Steve, on Tribesman it is wasted.

Meanwhile, the inventor of the original love parade attacks the Duisburg organisers (German language):
http://www.welt.de/vermischtes/article8635768/Man-darf-die-Menschen-nicht-einpferchen-wie-Vieh.html

Wise words, there is nothing to be added.

[Tribesman]

) The other thread was about the nasty things people write. This thread is about the tragedy itself.

Since the topic he started was because the other topic was distasteful due to then nasty things people write yet many of the things the things he writes here are identical to those in the other thread.
When combined with his problems of trying to protest without joining neo nazis or having neo nazis join him then it really does come back to his own "walk like a duck" statements when he may has well be quoting my struggle by that Austrian twat.

Is there some valid reason for you to turn this into an insult/attack fest on another member?
It sin't an attack fest, its just about the usual Sky comments about decadence and lackof culture from Germans who don't have the same German values which funnily enough fly in the face of his german cultursl values.

Since you already brought it up, can you show specific examples of "Sky's regular comments" that are like the posts on that thread, or is this just random trolling? Since you already brought it up, can you show specific examples of "Sky's regular comments" that are like the posts on that thread, or is this just random trolling? 07-25-2010 05:03 PM Since you already brought it up, can you show specific examples of "Sky's regular comments" that are like the posts on that thread, or is this just random trolling? 07-25-2010 05:03 PM
Look for yourself at the comments, blacks, muslims, the decadent cess pool that Germany has become.....does he write and link of exactly the same of much else?
If you want to extend it he is going further with his my struggle lines in calling for superiority, cleansing and racial hygene.
As I said in the other topic, to quote sky ...If it quacks like a duck and waddles like a duck it is a duck , if regularly its writings can be directly related to "my struggle" well.....


BTW you mention trolling, Since sky has had me on ignore since I raised questions about his claim that the only muslims are the new Saudi based wahibis and any muslims that ain't a wahibi nut ain't a muslim then how can I be trolling him?

[Sailor Steve]

Since the topic he started was because the other topic was distasteful due to then nasty things people write yet many of the things the things he writes here are identical to those in the other thread.
When combined with his problems of trying to protest without joining neo nazis or having neo nazis join him then it really does come back to his own "walk like a duck" statements when he may has well be quoting my struggle by that Austrian twat.
Exactly what did he say in this thread that deserved your response?

It sin't an attack fest, its just about the usual Sky comments about decadence and lackof culture from Germans who don't have the same German values which funnily enough fly in the face of his german cultursl values.
You attacked him for what he says (or your interpretation of what he says) in other threads. Nothing he said here deserved that. So yes, you attacked him for no good reason.


...then how can I be trolling him?
I didn't say you were trolling him. The very nature of your post was trolling us, "us" being anyone who wanted to have a serious discussion about the topic. But an attack, whether he can read it or not, does qualify for that term.

[Tribesman]

Exactly what did he say in this thread that deserved your response?

He said he didn't want to post in the other topic because of the quotes, those quotes happen to fit exactly some of his own writings so that in itself deserves a response.
Plus of course its some nonsense
Can you for example rationalise this....."Some people should be forbidden to procreate." .... with the topic in hand?
who exactly should be forbidden to procreate?
The dead people ?their parents? people who go to dance festivals ? people who organise dance festivals or their parents? the police and local authorities, their parents?

[Sailor Steve]

That's a fair enough assessment, so I'll back down on this somewhat. It still seems to me that you're conducting a personal battle rather than an honest debate, but at this point that becomes my opinion.

I would still appreciate more discussion of the facts. It's more productive.

[Skybird]

Latest official victim count from today afternoon now says still 19 dead, but now already 511 (physically) injured, 1 still fighting for his/her life.

Many helpers, medics and doctors that were on location are said to be heavily effected by traumatisation, too. Some older, more experienced professionals mentioned the event in one breath with Ramstein (air show disaster) and Eschede (derailing highspeed ICE train). the professionals who were inside the tunnel are described as being seriously traumatized. Older colleagues said that there were many young helpers near or in the tunnel for whom it has been their first major operation. These young colleagues, the older say, have had no opportunity to adapt to the psychological stress their job is confronting them with in case of an event like this, so they are hit most by it, and almost unprepared.

[Jimbuna]

Latest official victim count from today afternoon now says still 19 dead, but now already 511 (physically) injured, 1 still fighting for his/her life.

Many helpers, medics and doctors that were on location are said to be heavily effected by traumatisation, too. Some older, more experienced professionals mentioned the event in one breath with Ramstein (air show disaster) and Eschede (derailing highspeed ICE train). the professionals who were inside the tunnel are described as being seriously traumatized. Older colleagues said that there were many young helpers near or in the tunnel for whom it has been their first major operation. These young colleagues, the older say, have had no opportunity to adapt to the psychological stress their job is confronting them with in case of an event like this, so they are hit most by it, and almost unprepared.


I can only imagine this is not that very different to the first multi-party road traffic injury scene I attended (motorway multiple vehicle pile-up involving cars, lorries and coaches) many years back, seriously injured, dying and dead scattered over a wide area....absolute carnage.

NOTHING EVER PREPARES YOU FOR THAT :nope:

[Skybird]

Yes, I understand what you mean, I once knew an SAR flyer who said something like you say, he burnt out soon because he saw too much on the Autobahn. What those older pros were meaning, I suppose, is that a 20 year old who has never seen or experienced a major incident, maybe is on his first mission ever, has had no time to harden his mind and soul a bit and to form his own individual way of dealing with the feelings and images in his mind once he is back at home, in silence - when all what during the operation was supressed, now has space and time to come up and overwhelm you. Older guys with more experience probably have had more ways and more time to form habits and mechanisms of coping with it after their shift is over.

[Jimbuna]

My coping strategy usually consisted of a copious amount of dark rum and peppermint whilst sitting alone on the decking in the back garden.

The wife would give me an hour or so then come out and give me a reassuring cuddle.....she never enquired about the problem because she knew I would discuss it with her when I felt able, God bless her.

Now, after the passing of time she has told me she would watch the news on the tv and have a fair idea of her own anyway, the crafty bugga :DL

[Skybird]

Those in the medical, firefighting and policing services, SAR, rescue etc, usually get almost no mentioning in the news over here. Maybe this is something typical German, I don't know. I am aware that firefighters for example have a very different status in the American population's perception. I think many of such helpers dealing with the carnage of a nasty accident or a disaster, each in their own way are heroes, and most of them do not seek public spotlight and attention. But just some more mentioning of the work they do, and giving appreciation for it, would be only fair, I think. At least here in Germany. Maybe it is because after WWII, heroism is almost a taboo in Germany. If somebody says he thinks this or that person is a hero, he often immediately apologises for using that word, and relativises it again. It's a shame.

[Jimbuna]

It's not like that in Britain thankfully....the majority of the public support their emergency services and I'd be a liar if I said the odd public showing of said appreciation actually wasn't expected or welcomed.

Our societies demands and expectations of these services grow each year and said services are expected to perform on yearlly decreases in budget provision (politicians will no doubt have a different viewpoint) but I can remember during my final year of service having to park the patrol vehicle up for an hour each duty and do a foot patrol for an hour. Oficially to mix with the community but in truth to save a few quid on petrol and wear and tear on the vehicle. The local criminal fraternity always knew when the station was full of officers catching up on their paperwork :DL

Of course, any emergency 'shouts' were immediately dealt with, withouht any pre-consideration of cost/expenditure.

[Skybird]

Death count now 20.

[Jimbuna]

Is it known how many are in a critical condition?

[Skybird]

Yesterday they said that 48 still were held in hospitals. Critical conditons were mentioned just one - the girl that died today, marking number 20.

Main cause of deaths were pectoral chest contursions and inner bleedings. They were trampled to death.

[Skybird]

Now 21 dead.

[August]

I'd like to extend my condolences to my German cousins who lost family members in this tragedy.

[Schroeder]

Sorry to hear that.:-?

[Skybird]

^x2

[Jimbuna]

This just keeps getting worse :nope: