Scorpion and Thresher

[Bubblehead1980]

I had heard of the US nuke subs lost during the cold war but havent seen anything about them in a while.Yesterday evening on one of the 10 discovery channels I get(lol) there was a thing about how DR Robert Ballard of Titanic fame went on secret survey missions of the wrecks of Thresher and Scorpion while under the guise of looking for the Titanic.

Some pretty good evidence the Soviets sank the Scorpion from there and other things I have read.They had motive(revenge for one of their subs that was rammed in the Pacific) means...their own nuke sub.They had information leaked from spy John Walker who told them about Scorpion's location so they had the opportunity to ambush her.They also knew they were likely to get away with it since no one would ever know or be able to prove it.Also, was the US going to go to war over one submarine?

Just wanted to get other views.Don't want an ugly insult fest to start, so keep it respectful.Just want to know what others have read, think etc.

[antikristuseke]

I find it unlikely that a soviet sub commander would risk something as stupid as that.

[Bubblehead1980]

I do as well but if acting on orders, no doubt he would hestitate. Doubt it was a rogue Captain type thing. Cold War is over, just wish could get the whole truth.

[TLAM Strike]

I had heard of the US nuke subs lost during the cold war but havent seen anything about them in a while. Well they are still sunk...

Some pretty good evidence the Soviets sank the Scorpion from there and other things I have read.They had motive(revenge for one of their subs that was rammed in the Pacific) means...their own nuke sub.They had information leaked from spy John Walker who told them about Scorpion's location so they had the opportunity to ambush her.They also knew they were likely to get away with it since no one would ever know or be able to prove it.Also, was the US going to go to war over one submarine?

Just wanted to get other views.Don't want an ugly insult fest to start, so keep it respectful.Just want to know what others have read, think etc.This again? An Echo-II some how sneaked up on a Skipjack class boat and got within weapons range.

First an Echo-II sonar fit was garbage and is noisy as hell.
Second the best Soviet ASW fish of that time was the SET-65 which has about a 9 knot speed advantage over a Skipjack (not much). Unless fired from with in 2nm a Skipjack could simply run it to exhaustion.

The internal explosion (Mk37 malfunction) theory is far more plausible.

[Bubblehead1980]

Well they are still sunk...

This again? An Echo-II some how sneaked up on a Skipjack class boat and got within weapons range.

First an Echo-II sonar fit was garbage and is noisy as hell.
Second the best Soviet ASW fish of that time was the SET-65 which has about a 9 knot speed advantage over a Skipjack (not much). Unless fired from with in 2nm a Skipjack could simply run it to exhaustion.

The internal explosion (Mk37 malfunction) theory is far more plausible.

See the MK 37 "hot run" explosion was dismissed by many because the bow section was left intact and I agree.


I tend to believe the Soviets attacked.Either out of revenge for the Soviet sub or when the Scorpion was diverted at last minute to check out Soviet ships operating near the Azores, they had a submarine operating with them who detected Scorpion, saw her as a threat and engaged or was ordered to engage from by someone higher up than the sub Captain and even if her abilities were limited, she got lucky.

The Soviets had motive, means, and opportunity and evidence I've read about etc suggests it.Of course no one really knows but those involved.Hopefully one day the truth will come out.

[antikristuseke]

I do as well but if acting on orders, no doubt he would hestitate. Doubt it was a rogue Captain type thing. Cold War is over, just wish could get the whole truth.

Orders from command seem even more unlikely, I don't hold any love for the soviet regime, but they weren't complete morons.

[TLAM Strike]

See the MK 37 "hot run" explosion was dismissed by many because the bow section was left intact and I agree.

Actually I was talking about the "hot" torpedo theory not the "hot run" theory. The theory goes that a Mk37 torpedo battery malfunctioned and began to overheat. The overheating battery exploded and cause a low order detonation of the Mk 37 torpedo warhead.

[Bubblehead1980]

Actually I was talking about the "hot" torpedo theory not the "hot run" theory. The theory goes that a Mk37 torpedo battery malfunctioned and began to overheat. The overheating battery exploded and cause a low order detonation of the Mk 37 torpedo warhead.

Ah ok.Well they addressed that theory in the show I watched, theory was the low order detonation caused the hatch to blow and flooded the bow I believe, but they said the bow was in too good of condition for that or for a large explosion.

The evidence seems to point to them.Also consider the time, still at the height of the Cold War, had info from a spy about Scorpions location so as said motive, means, and opportunity.Maybe my legal mind but its the way i see it based on the evidence.Does this prove anything beyond a reasonable doubt? No.

Sad thing is, the government knows the truth but has not told it yet.Most of the files are still classified, perhaps one day we will know.

[Platapus]

Actually I was talking about the "hot" torpedo theory not the "hot run" theory. The theory goes that a Mk37 torpedo battery malfunctioned and began to overheat. The overheating battery exploded and cause a low order detonation of the Mk 37 torpedo warhead.


Ick, That could certainly ruin your day.

@bubblehead, I am not sure I can agree your opinion on the motivation. The revenge angle just does not seem plausible. How exactly would the Soviets garner any "revenge" by secretly sinking a US submarine?

I was an old cold warrior and it was my impression that the Soviets were neither stupid nor rash in what they did.

Admiral Painter: Russians don't take a dump, son, without a plan. :yeah:

I am assuming that the "ramming" of the Soviet submarine is the sinking of the K-129 on or about 8 March 1968. The sinking of the USS Scorpion was on 22 May 1968.

That would mean that in 73 days the Soviets would have to

1. Determine that the K-129 had, in fact sunk. It was not declared missing until the end of March 1968.

2. Decide that the K-129 had been sunk because it was rammed by a US submarine. How would they know this at the time, especially since we don't know what caused the K-129 to sink even after we found it and recovered parts of it.

3. Decide that it would be in the best interest of the USSR to sink a US submarine as a form of Revenge

4. Maneuver a Soviet Submarine to track and follow a US Submarine (not a common thing in 1968 given the differences in technology)

5. Attack and sink the USS Scorpion.

That is a lot to do in only 73 days. And what could the Soviet command think they would gain by this? The risks far far outweigh any benefit of emotional "revenge".

The revenge story just does not make sense. Occam’s razor should be considered.

[ETR3(SS)]

My two cents on the subject; the exact cause will never be known, and if it is known by the Navy you and I will never know. The missing puzzle piece here is what caused the Scorpion to exceed crush depth. Personally I don't buy into the "revenge" sinking for one reason. If a torpedo hit the Scorpion it would flood. If the pressure hull is full of water it can't be crushed.

[Subnuts]

Ya know, beyond arguing the relative kookiness of the Soviet government of the time, there's plenty of sound engineering evidence dismissing the Soviet torpedo theory. This article by Silent Steel author Stephen Johnson does a good job explaining why Scorpion's demise wasn't quite as sinister as conspiracy theorists would have you believe: http://www.terratol.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/Sinking_The_Myths.pdf

[TLAM Strike]

If a torpedo hit the Scorpion it would flood. If the pressure hull is full of water it can't be crushed.
Depends on how much of the pressure hull is flooded. She has five compartments incl. the reactor vessel.

[ETR3(SS)]

True, if they manage to shut as many watertight doors as they could. But given the layout of the boat I wouldn't think you would see evidence of collapse in the Engine Room and the Forward Compartment.

[TLAM Strike]

True, if they manage to shut as many watertight doors as they could. But given the layout of the boat I wouldn't think you would see evidence of collapse in the Engine Room and the Forward Compartment.
Didn't the back end collapse forward? From around the control surfaces forward to the aft compartment bulkhead.

[ETR3(SS)]

Correct. The stern "telescoped" forward and the sail was blown off as a result of the hull crushing.

[Bubblehead1980]

The revenge sinking isn't my theory, it is one that has been put forward that makes sense and I simply put out some reasons it makes sense.The others do also, I have never said the others are wrong, I just find the soviet sinking "revenge" theory to be plausible and should not be dismissed as it has been by some.

Again, motive, means, and opportunity.

Motive: Years of cold war with some "hot incidents" , ones we may not even know about.US submarines regularly shadowed Soviet subs and ships, Soviets did same.Kind of a tension thing that one could have with another person and then it escalates a bit, maybe not into a full blown fight because you both know you will both maybe get hurt, sizing up your opponent.To put this in Cold War terms....Mututally Assured Destruction, thus why we had so many proxy wars.The Soviets suspected US was responsible for the loss of their submarine in the Pacific, this pissed off many in Soviet Union to say the least.

Revenge is a great and poweful motive for man and since governments are ran by men.What was the US's major motivation in WW II, the battlecry, avenge Pearl Harbor? Why did were Japanese Americans treated a bit different then Germans or Italians, the anger over Pearl Harbor.Point is, does not matter who you are.You can be the most calm, collected "don't take a dump without a plan" Soviet but the motive of revenge can make you do things you may not normally do.

Means: While Soviets sub of the time were not the most advanced, they were still a threat and with right information, skilled Captain and crew and some luck, they could do it.Hell less advanced subs in WW II found other submarines and sank them, one even did it submerged.

Opportunity: Some reports say convicted Spy John Walker relayed information on the Scorpions return etc and Soviets knew where they would be, they had the opportunity or if they just detected the submarine snooping around soviet vessels in the Azores area, some hotheaded lower level Commander bent on revenge ordered the Captain of said submarine to "defend" and the Soviet sub got lucky.The Soviets knowing it could not be proved due to the depths etc, covered it up and denied knowing anything about it.Possible? absolutely. Again revenge is a powerful motive.Both sides knew neither of us would go to war over one submarine, esp when it could not really prove what happened then or now.

Now many of other theories are possible of course but I tend to believe a Soviet sub, in the midst of the cold war, with tensions high, attacked the US sub because they could and knew it.Maybe it was nothing as sinister as put forward, perhaps they were worried and fired, maybe an accident but it was covered up.We will never know, but theories make sense.

The torpedo battery explosion doesnt make sense to me because Dr Ballards survey showed a bow that was intact, too intact even for a low order detonation.

The bow was intact, the stern collpased in telescope effect and the midships area was gone, kind of like if a torpedo hit it perhaps?

We will never really know until everything is declassified, hopefully one day we and more importantly, the families of those loss will.

[geetrue]

We will never really know until everything is declassified, hopefully one day we and more importantly, the families of those loss will.

You have a lot of energy focused on this sinking of a US Navy nuclear fast attack submarine.

You have the seed thought of an evil plot against the USN SSN

You have tickeled us with what you think ... this is good in a way.

I hope you listen to the good friendly advice that has been given in opposition to your theory.

On a subject of this nature I would not lie or fudge a story for you

I was there the day she (Scorpion) came in, for reasons I do not know, to the sub base in Rota, Spain. I had just finished my first boomer patrol on the USS Ethan Allen SSBN 608 blue crew in May 1968.

We usually stayed on the tender when we change commands on boomers with two crews. Turning the boat over in about three days or so.

Anyway I was leaning on the rail of the submairne tender when she came in for a quick stop on the starboard side of the tender with the stern tied to the pier. Boomers on the port side of the tender to seperate us ... we could'e talked to them like normal sailors if they had been rafted up or something, but they had a different job than our milk runs.

Get the picture ... we saw her come in of course boats don't display names and numbers it was weeks later after we had already flown home for our three months off. When your off you have no access to secret materials.

No google in 68 lol the only way you get anything is by scuttlebutt. First talk was that they had flunked some king of reactor testing the nuc's were in trouble is all I know.

But I was one of the last men to see her, sad especially when it's your job.

As for your theory ... I could play into it real easy knowing where the Russians were hiding and waiting for us as soon as we would leave Rota.

Sometimes we would go out (no more Rota, right) and cruise for days to make sure no one was following us and then find a nice big fat tanker to slip underneath and hide in all of the noise she was making just feet from the top of our heads. I was in sonar, but everyone onboard could hear the slow blades of a tanker right above.

They were there waiting for us on the other side ... Britsh ASW planes would scan the area for us and report anything they saw. which usually consisted of russian foxtrots and whiskey class boats that had to snorkle.

Yep, they were there, but did they sink the Scorpion?

I don't think so ... any proof of this even if it was ultra top secret would have been cocktail talk for the men with gold dolphins and I gurantee you the men I knew and served with would have found a way to get even with or without the top brass permission.

On the good side of accidents of this nature came fail-safe a procedure that has saved many lives. I am out of breath in this heat and need to rest now.

You take care now and if you want to get mad about the Soviet Union doing something ... wonder about all of those missing pilots during the Vietnam war that may have been transported to mother land Russia to gleam any knowledge they had and then were elimanted by some say throats being cut.

I'll back you on that one :cry:

[TLAM Strike]

Maybe the Soviets sank the Scorpion in retaliation for what the USS McKean did to them... (http://breastroker.tripod.com/mckean.htm)