View Full Version : Korean War air combat.
nikimcbee
07-18-10, 04:04 PM
This is one of my favorite aviation history subjects, and I've read several books regarding the Soviet pilots. The funny thing regarding this whole subject, is that both sides seem to brush off their own losses. both sides were claiming pretty high kill ratios. I wonder if most of the US kills were against Chinese fighters? It seems like the Russians liked to use them as the "bait":D for the US pilots. But also, the Russians had a wider variety of planes that they were engaging. So I can see how their kill tallies would be high. I think it would be accurate to see or hear from the Chinese records.
:hmmm:
Claims
The numbers shown above, and used throughout, are claims, and are almost certainly in excess of the actual number of MiGs downed. During the war the USAF pilots claimed over 800 enemy planes. Postwar research revised that figure downward to 379, which closely matches the admitted Russian losses of 345. The Air Force has not disclosed, perhaps does not fully know, which pilot claims to revise, so the contemporary numbers stand, although, as in all claims for aerial victories, the claims exceed the other side's documented losses.
Adjusted Claims per Soviet Data
In the years since the breakup of the old Soviet Union, records relating to the Korean War have come to light. Aviation history researchers like Cookie Sewall and Diego Zampini have pored over these records and have been able to correlate Soviet records of specific aerial battles on specific dates, and thus documented certain over-claims by the USAF pilots. As noted above, over-claims have occurred in all wars and amongst all combatant nations. John Lundstrom similarly researched American overclaims versus Japanese air forces in WW2.
The adjusted claims shown here in no way detract from the heroic accomplishments of the aces. In any historical research, accuracy is all-important; without striving for accuracy (within the limits of resources, documents, archaelogical evidence, etc.) it is not history, it is merely story-telling.
The "Adjusted Claims" column represents a work in progress. As no Chinese archives have been opened up at this time, only USAF claims against Russian air forces have been reviewed. (In other words, the claims against Chinese air forces are counted here, without any challenge.) I hope to provide more documentation, identifying the dates and circumstances of the reduced claims. The "n.a" simply means that I have no information about any adjustments for that pilot; the USAF number should stand.
Russia:
http://www.acepilots.com/russian/rus_aces.html
US:
http://www.acepilots.com/korea_aces.html
Did anyone note this year marks the 60th anniversary of the start of the Korean War?
The Forgotten War.:nope:
Ironic we came very close to having a remake this year too.
F-86 Sabre...I have a soft spot for them. :rock:
As for hearing from Chinese records, I should imagine, given the human waves and the likelihood of staggering losses, the records have been heavily buried so that the public doesn't find out. Bad for morale and all that.
Raptor1
07-19-10, 09:32 AM
Ironic we came very close to having a remake this year too.
F-86 Sabre...I have a soft spot for them. :rock:
As for hearing from Chinese records, I should imagine, given the human waves and the likelihood of staggering losses, the records have been heavily buried so that the public doesn't find out. Bad for morale and all that.
I'm not sure the Chinese casualties are as bad as sometimes made out to be. The Chinese troops that fought in Korea were mostly veterens of the Chinese Civil War and they used infiltration and encirclement tactics which proved, especially at the end of 1950, very effective at destroying and throwing back the UN forces despite the Chinese disadvantage in air power and heavy weapons.
Sailor Steve
07-19-10, 09:49 AM
Did anyone note this year marks the 60th anniversary of the start of the Korean War?
The Forgotten War.:nope:
No. I forgot.
Jimbuna
07-19-10, 09:59 AM
Ironic we came very close to having a remake this year too.
F-86 Sabre...I have a soft spot for them. :rock:
As for hearing from Chinese records, I should imagine, given the human waves and the likelihood of staggering losses, the records have been heavily buried so that the public doesn't find out. Bad for morale and all that.
That is most probably the case....and yes, a beautiful aircraft.
http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/6977/sabre.jpg (http://img830.imageshack.us/i/sabre.jpg/)
nikimcbee
07-19-10, 10:13 AM
Great post Jim!:salute:
I think it would be cool/interesting to make a movie about the Russian pilots there, from their perspective. All of their involvement there was supposed to be top secret.
The Third Man
07-19-10, 10:26 AM
The Korean Police Action was a United Nation's sanctioned effort that couldn't be called a war. It did however allow future US presidents to act without congressional approval to commit US forces. As political cover the congress approved the 'War Powers Act' of 1973, which is why the power of the presidency is what it is today. The UN and congress.
Raptor1
07-19-10, 10:29 AM
The Korean Police Action was a United Nation's sanctioned effort that couldn't be called a war. It did however allow future US presidents to act without congressional approval to commit US forces. As political cover the congress approved the 'War Powers Act' of 1973, which is why the power of the presidency is what it is today. The UN and congress.
So if the US didn't call it a war, it stops being a war, even for the Koreans themselves?
Very nice Jim, very nice indeed :yeah: I must carry on with my IL2 reskin of the....
Oh...maybe not, someone else has done one that looks a lot better than mine!
http://airwarfiles.homestead.com/files/F86skinThumbs/F86_81FIW_91FISweb.jpg
81st FIW 91st FIS, USAF Bentwaters Summer 1950 :rock:
And then, some fifty-sixty years later, an F-86 flies out of Bentwaters again (link provided because of large picture size):
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3783/1004647.jpg
A very special moment :yep:
The Third Man
07-19-10, 11:07 AM
So if the US didn't call it a war, it stops being a war, even for the Koreans themselves?
It wasn't the US which didn't call it a war. It was the UN which called it a police action. Which lead to the US politicos using legislation to allow presidents to wage war without declaration. I think that is my point.
Raptor1
07-19-10, 11:16 AM
It wasn't the US which didn't call it a war. It was the UN which called it a police action. Which lead to the US politicos using legislation to allow presidents to wage war without declaration. I think that is my point.
The UN intervantion was called a police action, that hardly means that the Korean War can't be called a war.
And then, some fifty-sixty years later, an F-86 flies out of Bentwaters again (link provided because of large picture size):
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/3783/1004647.jpg
A very special moment :yep:
How many are there in flyable condition?
TLAM Strike
07-19-10, 11:18 AM
That is most probably the case....and yes, a beautiful aircraft.
http://img830.imageshack.us/img830/6977/sabre.jpg (http://img830.imageshack.us/i/sabre.jpg/)
What is the yellow one with the red star? Yugoslavia?
Raptor1
07-19-10, 11:20 AM
What is the yellow one with the red star? Yugoslavia?
Yes, it is
How many are there in flyable condition?
If wiki isn't lying, three.
One in Australia, one in Canada and the current oldest flying jet, the F-86A in my picture, in the UK.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_surviving_Sabres
Oh, and a little F-86 video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQL9Kxxd88s
Raptor1
07-19-10, 11:53 AM
Oh, and a little F-86 video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQL9Kxxd88s
I remember that one.
:rotfl2:
HunterICX
07-19-10, 12:43 PM
Aye, that video always puts a smile on my face
HunterICX
And while we're talking about Forgotten Wars, here's a little something I was going to show Raptor, so I'll show you all, it's from another forgotten war in Malaya in 1948.
http://img844.imageshack.us/img844/7596/malayanleaflet.jpg
Raptor1
07-19-10, 01:45 PM
Classic communist propaganda complete with bogus English, nice!
Jimbuna
07-19-10, 02:12 PM
Oh, and a little F-86 video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQL9Kxxd88s
An old classic :yeah:
Platapus
07-19-10, 02:46 PM
I always thought that the F-86 was one of the coolest looking fighter jets :yeah:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aKDlWktFK6I&feature=fvw
:salute:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOsk1OOMKys&feature=related
But let's not forget - if anything, I think these archives reveal more about the fact that the Sabre's natural opponent was also a very worthy aircraft, piloted by very sharp flyers. It was no pushover, so cheers to both those who flew it and those who faced it. Let's hope Russian and American airmen don't have to face each other like that ever again, though!
http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/2175/f86mig15chino2006.jpg
:salute:
Amen CCIP, got a healthy respect for Russian equipment and the users of it. :yep:
Did I mention I want Mig Alley 2?
I really wish they'd give it the same treatment as BoB 2, which shows that Rowan's engine can still be alive and kicking. I never got very far in Mig Alley, but I'll always remember it as the game that taught me how to dogfight.
Oh, and a little F-86 video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQL9Kxxd88s
:har:
Nice one, Oberon!
Raptor1
07-20-10, 02:02 PM
Did I mention I want Mig Alley 2?
I really wish they'd give it the same treatment as BoB 2, which shows that Rowan's engine can still be alive and kicking. I never got very far in Mig Alley, but I'll always remember it as the game that taught me how to dogfight.
Aye, MiG Alley 2 would be awesome.
Though IIRC somebody was making a Korean War sim based on the Storm of War engine somewhere...
Sailor Steve
07-20-10, 04:07 PM
That is most probably the case....and yes, a beautiful aircraft.
A product of the same folks who brought us the P-51 Mustang.
The Korean War was also the first airwar that suffered from planning by people far from the front. US Command was in Japan, and it showed. You would have F-80s, F-84s and F-9-F Panthers doing ground attack with Mustangs and Corsairs as top cover. Yes, that's jets doing the ground-pounding and the older "prop-jobs" as we called them when I was a kid, trying to take on the MiGs.
In World War 2 it could be doubly dangerous for a fighter pilot, because a P-51 head-on at 300 yards looks very much like a Bf-109 at 200 yards, and bomber gunners tended to shoot at both. In Korea they actually assigned straight-winged F-84s as close escort for the B-29s, with F-86s flying high cover. They were told to not chase the MiGs through the formations, because the B-29 gunners were told to shoot at anything with swept wings.
Two Korea airwar movies you should not miss.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0046806/
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0051750/
Too much schmaltz and not enough flying in both films, but what is there makes them both worth a look.
Except for Platapus, who will hate The Hunters, as it's Crash Dive with airplanes.
TLAM Strike
07-20-10, 04:33 PM
Did I mention I want Mig Alley 2?
I really wish they'd give it the same treatment as BoB 2, which shows that Rowan's engine can still be alive and kicking. I never got very far in Mig Alley, but I'll always remember it as the game that taught me how to dogfight.
I'm with you. Back when I was big in to flight sims MiG Alley was one of my favorites.
Really learned a lot about flying in that sim with the preferences set for realistic. Came as a shock first time I flew with those settings that I could tear the wings off my F-80 with a sharp turn or send my F-86 in to an uncontrollable spin with hard maneuvers at high altitude.
nikimcbee
07-21-10, 01:59 AM
Did I mention I want Mig Alley 2?
I really wish they'd give it the same treatment as BoB 2, which shows that Rowan's engine can still be alive and kicking. I never got very far in Mig Alley, but I'll always remember it as the game that taught me how to dogfight.
:yeah:
That would be totally cool!
Platapus
07-21-10, 06:54 PM
Except for Platapus, who will hate The Hunters, as it's Crash Dive with airplanes.
The movie "The Hunters" is way better than Crash Dive. :up:
Captain Vlad
07-21-10, 09:58 PM
Did I mention I want Mig Alley 2?
Yeah, that's on my list, too.
Especially if they threw in the USN/Marine fighters. Panthers and Skyraiders and Corsairs! Yeah!
Sailor Steve
07-21-10, 10:18 PM
Yeah, that's on my list, too.
Especially if they threw in the USN/Marine fighters. Panthers and Skyraiders and Corsairs! Yeah!
I've built models of things like a Douglas F3D Skyknight and a Seafire 47 for the airwar game we play at the local hobby shop. I'd love to see those in a game as well.
TLAM Strike
07-21-10, 10:21 PM
Especially if they threw in the USN/Marine fighters. Panthers and Skyraiders and Corsairs! Yeah! You are making my mouth water...
I've built models of things like a Douglas F3D Skyknight and a Seafire 47 for the airwar game we play at the local hobby shop. I'd love to see those in a game as well. Like a miniatures game or something?
Sailor Steve
07-21-10, 10:40 PM
Like a miniatures game or something?
Ayup. Been playing it since 1977. The only pictures I have are of the WW1 variant, but we play any period from 1915 through the present.
Caudron G4 (scratchbuilt)
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/CaudronG42.jpg
Sopwith 1-1/2 sneaks up on a Rumper
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Rumplerchain2.jpg
And doesn't notice the other one stalking him (all three are vacuform kits)
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Rumplerchain1-1.jpg
Caudron escorted by a Nieuport 10 and Morane 'L'
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Frenchtrio-1.jpg
A little photoshop goes a long way
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/AmongthecloudsGray.jpg
Gulliver Steve admires his Eindekker
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Fok1-1.jpg
The stands
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/Spad1.jpg
A sight no Allied pilot wants to see
http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/SailorSteve/JastaAlbatros-1.jpg
Now that is win. Nice shots Steve, love the Eindekker, stalked a few of them in various sims over the years :yeah:
Castout
07-22-10, 07:37 AM
After seeing the black and white photo the planes are impressive!!
Steve you should try to market his board game and sell the planes that you make :D
Sailor Steve
07-22-10, 08:08 AM
Steve you should try to market his board game...
The author has been trying to market the game for thirty-five years. No luck so far.
...and sell the planes that you make :D
My models are no better that thousands of others people have made just to play with. The best part of the whole thing is that rather than six or eight model planes hanging from the ceiling I have a couple hundred that I take out and play with on a regular basis.
:rotfl2:
Schroeder
07-22-10, 08:24 AM
Nice shots Steve, love the Eindekker,
Grammar Nazi says: It`s an Eindecker, not an Eindekker.:know::O:
Raptor1
07-22-10, 08:25 AM
Grammar Nazi says: It`s an Eindecker, not an Eindekker.:know::O:
Spelling Nazi!
Arrgh, don't you know anything?! :O:
Sailor Steve
07-22-10, 08:29 AM
Grammar Nazi says: It`s an Eindecker, not an Eindekker.:know::O:
Too true. :oops:
But don't blamed Oberon. He just coppied my mistook.
TLAM Strike
07-22-10, 09:21 AM
Grammar Nazi says: It`s an Eindecker, not an Eindekker.:know::O:
Don't you mean Grammar Kaiser? :O:
@Steve: awesome models!
Grammar Nazi says: It`s an Eindecker, not an Eindekker.:know::O:
Ironic...I wrote Eindecker, then thought I'd better check how Steve wrote it, and thought ah, I must be wrong and changed it to Eindekker. :har:
Still...goes down in flames the same way when exposed to a Sopwith no matter what it's called :O:
Schroeder
07-22-10, 10:10 AM
Too true. :oops:
But don't blamed Oberon. He just coppied my mistook.
I know, but I didn't see any reason to correct it until Oberon made the same mistake.;)
Otherwise I had already pointed out the fact, that it is a Rumpler and not a Rumper.:woot:
@Raptor
I only heard of grammar Nazis so far. If there are already spelling Nazis it seems that my power is growing. *insert evil laughing smiley here*
Schroeder
07-22-10, 10:11 AM
Don't you mean Grammar Kaiser? :O:
Nah, it's too difficult to maintain that beard.:-?
The other one is easier.:D
I know, but I didn't see any reason to correct it until Oberon made the same mistake.;)
Favoritism... :O: I always knew I was special... :smug:
Sailor Steve
07-22-10, 02:25 PM
Ironic...I wrote Eindecker, then thought I'd better check how Steve wrote it, and thought ah, I must be wrong and changed it to Eindekker. :har:
Well then it really is your fault for listening to me! :O:
Schroeder]Otherwise I had already pointed out the fact, that it is a Rumpler and not a Rumper.:woot:
D'OH! Well, Eindekker was a true misspelling, because I knew what I was doing even though I did it wrong. 'Rumper', on the other hand, was a simple typo. I just missed key and didn't see it in time. If I had, I would have fixed it.
Schroeder
07-22-10, 03:21 PM
D'OH! Well, Eindekker was a true misspelling, because I knew what I was doing even though I did it wrong. 'Rumper', on the other hand, was a simple typo. I just missed key and didn't see it in time. If I had, I would have fixed it.
I forgive you.:O:
:D
I forgive you.:O:
:D
http://lh6.ggpht.com/_-g5nyUXniEQ/SDMdCyQXNwI/AAAAAAAABT4/TAABCbhrOdg/Dramatic.gif
:o
Watch your back Steve...he forgave you...this means he must have something...special planned for you... :doh:
Jimbuna
07-23-10, 02:23 PM
Watch your back Steve...he forgave you...this means he must have something...special planned for you... :doh:
Yeah....if half the rumours Oberon has been spreading are true....you'd better watch yer 6 o'clock :O:
Captain Vlad
07-24-10, 12:47 PM
I've built models of things like a Douglas F3D Skyknight and a Seafire 47 for the airwar game we play at the local hobby shop. I'd love to see those in a game as well.
That game looks awesome.
Any chance of pics of some of the old Navy birds?:DL
Wolfehunter
07-26-10, 11:08 AM
Oh, and a little F-86 video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vQL9Kxxd88sGreat vid thanks. :yeah:
Sailor Steve
07-26-10, 01:54 PM
That game looks awesome.
Any chance of pics of some of the old Navy birds?:DL
Not anytime soon, because my models are all stored at a friend's house. I can't play much right now because Thursday night is both game night and band practice. Also the guy who took those WW1 pics hasn't been around much lately, and I don't have a proper camera.
Captain Vlad
07-28-10, 09:22 PM
Not anytime soon, because my models are all stored at a friend's house. I can't play much right now because Thursday night is both game night and band practice. Also the guy who took those WW1 pics hasn't been around much lately, and I don't have a proper camera.
No worries!
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