i must be doing something wrong.. targeting problem

[nappy]

I seem to be unable to target (manually) correctly in american uboats. In german uboats i can do it just fine, but i must be doing something wrong in these american uboats because i find it incredible hard to attack multiple ships in a convoy. heres my problem:

In german uboats you insert, rage, speed and AoB and when you move the scope the AoB also changes. since speed is constant and range affects the targeting to a lesser degree, i find it easy to attack multiple ships in a convoy. just move the scope to the next target and press fire.

Now on the american uboats i struggle. I insert speed, range and AoB, but that is only true for anything that moves past the set bearing im using.
If i want to target anything else, i will have to move the scope. find the next target, note the bearing and calculate new AoB, insert this into the wheel thingie and now i can fire.. and still when chose the AoB for the second target i will have to chose a bearing that is a wee bit infront of the target so i manage to insert the new variables before the ship reaches the bearing.. this makes it incredible hard to hit anything but 1 ship in an enemy convoy. Sure i can wait for the next ship to pass the first solution, but i kinda would like to fire all my torpedoes so that they hit the enemy ships more or less at the same time, not as pearls on a string.. if you know what i mean.

Also.. what does the position keeper do? afaik it only stores the solution currently set when i pressed the position keeper button..but..well.. i can see that if that is the case, it will help me target 2 ships. since i calculate the first attack. press the position keeper button, insert the second attack information and press the position keeper the second the first torpedoes are launched, but i still will have to chose an AoB infront of the second ship to be attack. and if i would like to attack 3 ships (unlikely, but still) the position keeper will not be of any help for the third solution.

What i mean is, afaik i will have to setup the attacks so that i fire when a ship passes a sertain bearing. i.e it is not possible to fire when it suits me like on the german boats. and this takes precious seconds to calculate when the first torpedoes are already on the way, and worse the solution for the second target has to be setup so that the second target moves into the solution.. not an easy feat when seconds counts.

I hope i was able to express my problem, reading my own text it seems somewhat..uh... not so clear.

oh well, any and all help appriciated.

nappy

[Raven79]

Well first, the position keeper does keep track of the target you inputted. BUT. You can't input anything new then (second target). It is simply a tool, I for one use seldomly. It keeps your target bearing and range accurate after all info is given to the TDC for you. If my understanding of it is correct, it should be used if you want to get your periscope down fast and usually forget to open your torp tubes. The fish will then begin to swim on a calculated solution rather than an outdated one.
If I use it however, I use it only to check my solution for me. So I feed the TDC, activate the PK, wait a bit.. up scope again and re-feed it and see if anything in the TDC changes. If my solution was perfect already, nothing will change. If the range does change, my AoB was incorrect. If the bearing changed, my speed was incorrect. I either correct myself or open fire then. I used this a lot at first to learn how to guess AoB and speed of my target just by looking at it.

A usual approach for me would be to make visual (early war) or radar (late war) contact with a convoy, pick the ship right in the middle of it and plot it's course on the map. (Insert time to identify ships and radio back to base here, optional if already at visual range.) I'll get it's heading and speed out of this. Now I can plot the course of the entire convoy and lay out my own. (Early war, this has to be a longer course, so I get away unnoticed and get ahead of them again.) As I'm moving into position, I calculate the AoB of my target in the middle of the convoy by map tools, set the torpedo depth and speed etc. I also enter calculated speed and AoB into the TDC already. When I'm in position, I open the tubes and fetch target range by stadimeter as soon as I think it's close enough, check speed by eye (waves on it's bow), check AoB by eye (maybe they are maneuvering now, would screw up everything). Now either I use the PK to check me (needs time though) or open fire. Get next target, AoB is set pretty quickly now, as it should be only a few degrees off, new range, fire. Next target, AoB, range, fire. I find it pretty quick, the hits should almost be simultaneously if your respective next target is closer to you than the one before it. You can build a nice routine by moving through the TDC from right to left (speed, AoB, range and bearing) to input things. First thing you'll notice is that the speed dial is seldomly used ;).

A whole new world begins when an escort saw you and you're trying to give him one of those quick fish to choke on while he runs straight towards you. I use "hip shots" for that by setting speed to 12, AoB to 0, and then give it the most accurate range I can find, either via ping or using the stadimeter - or even by guessing. Out with the fish and down we go.. Hip shots going to 0 or 180° of your boat nearly always miss, so don't even try those. 45-135 or 230-315 are perfect bearings to shoot them on, as the torp has to do a slight circle motion then, hitting the escort's broadside (which is quite a bit larger than the bow you're looking at while aiming).

You'll need to identify a ship though, if you use these methods. I usually ID the escorts first, but if one is speeding towards you, nevermind. Call it a merchant, what the heck. As long as you don't call it a carrier or BB, range will be accurate enough.

If you'd rather not use ID and stadimeter, you'll be pretty good with the 3 methods of targeting mentioned in the bag of tricks up as sticky in the forum. Just watch the videos, they're pretty simple to copy.
Note that in either method you'll have to hit the little "send range/bearing" button twice. Always. Whyever it does this, it never sends correct bearings at the first press.

Well.. so much for ideas on my part :)

[Capt. Morgan]

Have you had a look at these two videos?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=955573&postcount=182

and

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=973837&postcount=191

Both provide very clear explanations of the required procedures to attack multiple ships in a fleet-boat (along with some pretty interesting music in the second).

[nappy]

I am still confused. how does he calculate AoB for the second target withouth going to the nav map and using the tools there to do the calculations? Looking at the video it seems he just "wings it". If i am to do it propperly i have to:

1. launch torpedoes at the first target
2. locate the second target, note the bearing.
3. go to nav map, find AoB for second target a couple of seconds in the future.
4. go back to periscope, insert AoB for second target
5. wait for second target to get to the bearing i chose on the nav map
6. launch torpedoes on second target.

this takes quite a lot of time :doh:

nappy

[Raven79]

In the videos, all targets pass the same point shortly after another.
When you do not change course and do not move the scope, all targets have nearly the same AoB.
There was this .gif animation around, showing very clearly how it looks from above.. I'll have a look where it is..

edit: Found it.
Rock Robbins posted it, I'll assume he's got nothing against it if I repeat it here:
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/Manual%20TDC%20Range/OKanemethodanimation.gif

You are the blue thingy. They are the red ones. Blue line for 0°, green line for periscope line of view. Yellow for torps.
See that? Only thing to do is wait and keep firing as they pass your sights. ;)

[nappy]

hmm. quite interesting, ill sure try it out when i get the chance.
But alas, in my current case, the illustrated example wont help me much
since the convoy is in a single line, like pearls on a string. waiting for
the second ship to enter my solution will not work since the first
target will be hit long before that happends (even with torpedoes at slow speed)

That being said, looking at the answers here, it seems i am in fact
doing it right, it is just that i have become complacent with the superior
german solution. I guess ill just have to suck it up and work harder :cool:

anyways, thnx for the help, much appriciated.

nappy

[Bubblehead1980]

Manual targeting is really simple, everyone has always made it more difficult(even myself when I first started) esp with the various special techniques some swear by, I've used them and prefer the traditional TDC based shot.I'll try to explain.I play 100 realism, usually with map contacts on.TMO 2.0

Say you have a target, take the ruler and draw a line showing his projected path based on current heading.Draw a line say 1200 yards off, ideal firing range for torpedos, less if desired, 1000 is nice also.Now, heading towards that line, raise scope to make sure target is still heading.Now, lets get some target info for the TDC

Range/Bearing: No escorts around, best way to get range and bearing until target is close enough to use active sonar.You can do it yourself OR order your sonar man to follow contact via the orders bar, then ask for a range, he will ping target and report range, then click "send range" and send bearing to TDC.Open the TDC panel and hit the small button in the bottom right corner, it should glow red.This is the position keeper, prob the most important part.Now, AOB.You can estimate yourself or simple take the protractor to measure the angle yourself.Enter it into AOB, guess what, youre finished updating AOB unless it dramatcially changes and even then youre prob okay.Now for SPEED.

Open the stopwatch, use the pencil to mark an X over current location and start watch, wait 3 minutes, then stop.Now using the ruler measure the distance from the first X to the second X.Say distance traveled is 900 yards, means target is moving at 9 knots, target was making 300 yards a minute.Target made 200 yards a minute? 6 knots, easy stuff.650 yards? 6 1/2 knots, easy.
You can do this without contacts also but much easier to learn with contacts on.

Now, you have range/bearing, AOB and speed.The TDC has kept track of the targets range and AOB.Now, target is close enough for a stadimeter reading, simple ID the target, place crosshairs over itand bring the bottom of the image to the targets tallest mast(unless youre using SCAF, then use the red mark in the rec manual) then click in the scope, image disppears, click the "send range bearing button" TDC is still updating.Now say youre 1500 yards off track, target is closing in at bearing 340.Make sure speed hasnt changed, make sure torpedo doors are open, depth set on fish, scope isnt left up too long so not spotted.Sound man should still be ordered to follow target and listen, when target is at bearing 356 or so order sonar man to ping for range, then set the range manually on the range/bearing dial(save time from another stad reading), raise scope set it at bearing 0, when the middle of ship is in crosshairs, click send bearing button, then Fire!.Now, I never used the spread dial, much easier to aim them as individual shots but can use the spread dial or just move crosshairs, click the send bearing button on the dial again and fire.I usually fire 3 torpedos for mid sized freighters, 4 for large, 2 for small. Aim for things like smoke stacks, use the masts at aiming points to hit the cargo holds etc.

This was traditional 90 degree TDC shot, works well and can see, never had to update AOB and didnt have to update the range bearing much because TDC's Position Keeper handles this.You could fire when target was still off to the port with 70 AOb or less, as long as speed is correct and bearing is fresh, fish should hit. Say you want to fire at more than one target, say in a convoy.MOST of the time you dont even have to update new AOB for it, if AOB is in the same ballpark, speed is same,s imply imput new bearing and range and fire.Easy stuff.Takes practice though.The PK is a real advantage for sure.

Wish could give some visuals but not at home at moment, hopefully this helps.Just remember, traditional TDC is easy.

[I'm goin' down]

First of all, I have forsaken the Dick O'Kane method for gutted's Solution Solver program, as the latter is extremely accurate in terms of providing a lead angle (firing point). As for the second shot, you can wait until target 2 ship crosses the firing point if it is tracking the course of the target no. 1. In this hypothetical, resetting Aob is not required. With the Solution Solver program, the PK is not activated.

If you use the Easy Aob mod for the set up on target no.1, and assuming that target no. 2 is on the same course, all you need to do is adjust the range on the Range Dial and the Aob Dial (they are two of the the three Attack Dials on the upper right of Periscope View screen). This is not too difficult if the 2nd target is on the same course, as the Aob adjustment is usually not major. Once Aob is reset, you have time to reset (recalculate) range. With the Easy Aob mod, the PK is activated and the TDC is operational.

In each of the above scenarios, target no. 2 is on the same (or close to the same) course as target no. 1.

If your boat is situated between targets nos. 1 and 2, which are on the parallel courses, you can fire forward torpedoes at one target and aft torpedoes at the other. The Solution Solver will provide you with firing angles for each. You need to adjust the Aob for the aft shot to 180 degrees and reset the solution to aft torpedoes to effectuate this technique. It takes practice so you do not skip a step. Since you are using the Solution Solver program, the PK is not activated.

Where target no. 2 is on a different course than target no. 1, I use easy Aob on the second target. This permits you to fire at odd angles and at fairly significant distances, but if target no. 2 is traveling fast it is a scramble. Here, the PK is activated.

I have hit 3 target using Easy Aob mod when they are all on the same course. I know I have sunk two, but cannot recall if I sunk all of them. In each attack I was using only forward torpedoes. To hit and sink 4 in a single attack run requires luck and most likely use of both forward and aft torpedoes. Here again, the PK is activated.

[nappy]

thanx for the replies guys, i appriciate it. Though it seems i have not
been able to express my problem propperly.

I can set speed, AoB and distance just nicely on manual. My problem
is setting AoB for the second target withouth going to the nav map, do
the calculations there, go back to the periscope, insert the new values
wait for the second target to enter my solution and then fire.

When i have fired the first torpedoes, seconds are precious. On the german uboats its wham wham wham, and im outa there.

On the american uboats its wham, find next target, go to nav map, calculate AoB a few seconds into the future, go back to periscope, insert calulations, wait for it, wait for it, wham, and NOW im outa there.

Now. I'm goin' down and Bubblehead1980 have both explained in quite detail how they setup their attacks, and i appriciate that, but how do you guys calculate AoB on second target withouth going away from the periscope ?

Say you fire at first target at 350 degrees, speed is 16 knots and distance about 2000. The second target is.. what.. about 500-1000 meters behind the first target? the AoB will change significantly for the second target, and theres no way i can look at the target and "guess the right AoB".

Waiting for the second target to enter the solution i used for the first target is possible, but well. realistically, not doable since the first target will be hit quite some time before the second target, even with different torpedo speeds.

phew.. hope i managed to express my problem better now :)

nappy


im using 1.5 with TMO 2.0, no other mods.

nappy

[sergei]

POST REMOVED.
Erroneous information :oops:

[I'm goin' down]

You are falling asleep, getting very tired, you are in a DEEP sleep.

You are now in Admiral Nimitz office. He is speaking. You listen.

On a real boat your crew would be doing the calculations for the second target. Not you. Hell, captains of your caliber don't have time. But, now, imagine that all of your crew are dead or injured. (In today's Navy they would all be pregnant.) You have to do the calculations yourself. You can try to guess at target number 2's Aob. But that is not a very good solution (pun intended because Nimitz is a jokster). So, you should pull down the Nav Map, calculate Aob, enter it into the solution for the TDC, and confirm the "new" solution on the Attack Map. Since you have to move expeditiously, I would stop the game when the Nav Map is displayed, calculate Aob, restart the game, enter the new Aob, and conclude the attack. But hell sailor, who am I? Just some old Navy dog that nobody will remember or say was worth a damn. Maybe one of my officers has a better technique?

Count to three. When you say "three," you will be awake and remember everything.

:salute: p.s. The solution you are looking for does not exist. You can try to eyeball Aob for the second target, but it is going to be an estimate.

[sergei]

OK nappy.
Instead of thinking in terms of AOB for target 2, think in terms of the targets course, and set the dial that way.
You should already know your targets course from your plot on the nav map.

Some images of what I am talking about.

http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/3458/target1n.jpg

I have already set up my first shot in this pic. A tanker, doing 10 knots, on a course of 50 degrees.
Let's zoom in on the top left panel

http://img340.imageshack.us/img340/8789/tdc1.jpg

The numbers on the inside of the dial are the target AOB. You know this.
Notice the numbers around the outside of the dial. This is the targets course. Note how the front of the ship icon is pointed at the 50 degree mark. Now I know from my map plot that my targets are on a course of 50 degrees, so I can use this outside ring to verify I have set the correct AOB.

Now I switch to target 2.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/5726/target2a.jpg

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2103/target2b.jpg

OK, I've done a range and bearing for my new target.
Again let's zoom in to our top left panel (I'm sure there's a proper name for this panel:DL)

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/6804/tdc2.jpg

One look at it and I know my AOB is wrong.
Why? Because it shows my target on a course of 25 degrees, not 50.

So, I just have to move my AOB clockwise by 25 degrees, until my target matches its correct course.

http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/6040/target2c.jpg

http://img708.imageshack.us/img708/5870/tdc3.jpg

And there we go. Correct AOB (at the time of observation)
You don't have to try and do quick mental arithmetic.
You don't have to switch back to the map and try and re-measure the AOB.
Just make sure the dial matches your target course.

So, if you want to train your periscope a few degrees in front of the target, it's really no problem.
Again, just rotate your AOB dial until your target shows the correct course.

Hope this helps.

[nappy]

@I'm goin' down - lol. i laughed :DL

@sergei - holy crap.....i think something just clicked in my head.
sooooooooooooooooo.. i know the bearing of the first target. i move the scope to the second target... and change the AoB so that the second targets bearing matches the bearing of the first target.. wow.. i gotta try this.

much thanxo :D

nappy-excited.

[Nisgeis]

On a real boat your crew would be doing the calculations for the second target.

On a real boat, the TDC would make all the necessary adjustments to the AoB and range that would make for a perfect shot on bearing change. It's a small oversight in the modelled TDC that makes the TDC extremely troublesome for last minute adjustments or changes of target if you also want an accurate range. The TDC would update in the same way that the German TDC would update the details on bearing change, except there was no direct link in the US TDC, as the German TDC was simpler and had no PK.

[I'm goin' down]

very nice demonstration sergei. I am running around midway, where I never seem to find the invasion force. If I find it, I may try your technique if the opportunity presents iteslf.

[Deephunter]

I'm somewhat baffled by you all's insistence on going through all these somersaults to set up a firing solution. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I find the O'Kane method to be so simple and straightforward that I fail to see why anyone would do things otherwise...After the initial solution is set and torps on their way, I can set up a second target's solution within 15-20 seconds on a second target by simply swinging the scope to the proper bearing, double clicking on the TDC to send the new bearing, and fire away.... Can it get any simpler..??
The only variable you have to keep a sharp eye on is target speed. But generally ships within a convoy will be going at the same speed-with the exception of those pesky DD's that I don't generally waste my torps on unless they're really giving me a hard time....

[Capt. Morgan]

Hi Nappy,

I am still confused. how does he calculate AoB for the second target withouth going to the nav map and using the tools there...

He can do it because the AoB and the True Course are linked in the TDC, and he already knows the True Course for every Merchant in the convoy (they all share the same one, at least until the torps. hit :arrgh!:).

Once the first torpedos are away, he locks on to the second target (which he had previously identified, and opened the ID book to the correct page), sends the new mast hight to the TDC, sends the new bearing and range, and then adjusts the AoB setting until the TDC indicates the same True Course as used on the first target. Speed remains unchanged.

The solution to the second target will be as good as the solution to the first, assuming you get the range right (and that's a big assumption with the stadimeter, I know)

At the range specified in the tutorial (1700-2000yds), you'll have about 20 seconds between the two salvos to accomplish this , which should be more than enough if you are well practiced .

There are a lot of steps in setting up this kind of attack, but done right, both targets blow up within seconds of each other, which is really satisfying, as well as effective.

[Capt. Morgan]

I'm somewhat baffled by you all's insistence on going through all these somersaults to set up a firing solution. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I find the O'Kane method to be so simple and straightforward that I fail to see why anyone would do things otherwise...

Well I tend to agree with you if I'm going after a single target in a Fleet Boat, but I never could get the O'Kane method to work all that well for me against multiple targets - unless they were in different columns at almost the same bearing. Anything else, and I always got a lot of misses.

Not so with the German targeting computer though, which (like the OP, I suspect) I prefer in spite of it's relative simplicity.

[nappy]

All i wanted was to be able to target multiple ships in a convoy.
Coming from german uboats where this is a non-issue, i couldnt
figure out how to do this withouth spending a fair amount of time doing
calculations between launching torpedoes on each target.

Now, ill be the first to admit im no sailor, and my knowledge on how this
was done in real life is non-existing. Everything i know ive read about in this
forum. And even then, im sure, ive learnt less than what i have forgotten..that is to say, im fairly green in all aspects of manual targeting.

That being said, it was never my intention of being obtuse, mearly a desire to
replicate what i felt was quite easy on the german boats. Ive looked into this Dick O'Kane method(as well as all the other suggestions which im very gratefull for), ive drawn a few triangles on a piece of paper, experimented with the angles, and since the sum of all the corners in a triangle is 180, and even better yet, in a 90 degree triangle, the 2 non 90 degree angles will subtract and add to eachother, ive come to realize that i can in fact set the AoB based on the bearin on the periscope.. which is a major discovery for me :cool:

All in all, withouth this thread, i would be a less than average fleet boat captain im sure :arrgh!:

yet again, thanx for all the help, it is much appriciated.

nappy

[I'm goin' down]

I prefer the Solution Solver to O'Kane. The firing wire (firing point) is more precise. For second targets on the same course, wait until they cross the wire. And, if you get really proficient, Solution Solver works at any angle.

[I'm goin' down]

I revisited your post. What is the "proper" bearing for the second target? If both targets are on the same course, don't your fire when both targets pass the firing point for the first target? If you move the periscope from say a firing point of 10 degrees, isn't the only reason to do so is if the speed of the second target is different? I do not understand what you are doing or how it works? Please enlighten me. (I assume you are playing with manual targeting and not automatic targeting.)

[nappy]

there is no "propper bearing" for the second target. it can be whatever you want. well, to a sertain degree :)

imagine 2 ships moving from left to right. I have the solution for the first target and fire my torpedoes. Immediately after firing them i move my scope to just infront of the next ship, immediately set the new AoB, wait for the second ship to enter my solution and fire again.

this is doable with a dick o'kane attack where you are 90 degree of the targets course.

heres how it works:
imagine a 90 degree triangle where A and B represents enemy ships. and C is you. You are at the bottom om the the triangle
and both of the other 2 corners are on top, like this:

A---------B
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
\ |
C
Now. corner B is 90 degrees and will never change. Since a triangle has 180 degrees. corner A and C will have end up at 90 degrees combined.

Ok.. so now..lets imagine that you fire at the first ship when he is just north of you at point B, or in other words when the bearing on your scope is 0. you immediately turn the scope to the left and locate the second target at point A. lets say that your scope now shows a bearing of 330 degrees. which is 30 degrees left of 0. you now KNOW that the AoB of the second target is 60 degrees. since corner B is 90 degrees and corner C is 30 degrees, then corner A HAS to be 60 degrees. so you insert 60 degrees on starboard side AoB and your second solution is complete (distance will obviously not be correct, but the small difference is negligable) :)

if corner B is anything but 90 degrees this whole exercise becomes a whole lot more difficult.


hope i was able to answer your question :)

nappy



ps: oooh. i may have misunderstood. The whole point of not firing at both ships when they pass point B is to immediately fire my fishes and get out of there, instead of waiting for the second ship to move into B.. which can take quite alot of time based on how far behind it is.

pps: you do not have to fire at the first target at point B, that was just to simplify the example :)

[I'm goin' down]

I'm somewhat baffled by you all's insistence on going through all these somersaults to set up a firing solution. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I find the O'Kane method to be so simple and straightforward that I fail to see why anyone would do things otherwise...After the initial solution is set and torps on their way, I can set up a second target's solution within 15-20 seconds on a second target by simply swinging the scope to the proper bearing, double clicking on the TDC to send the new bearing, and fire away.... Can it get any simpler..??
The only variable you have to keep a sharp eye on is target speed. But generally ships within a convoy will be going at the same speed-with the exception of those pesky DD's that I don't generally waste my torps on unless they're really giving me a hard time....

Nap/Nap, I have a problem with the conclusion you derive from your geometrical illustration. The illustration is great, but it reiterates sergei's analysis, which, by the way, I agree with. I believe Deephunter's explanation may be flawed or incomplete, so I was waiting for him to provide a more complete one. As far as sergei's explanation and your reiteration re resetting the Aob for target no. 2, it is correct, and resetting the Aob is fast and practical. However, neither sergei nor you mention resetting the firing point (lead angle) for a good reason, and I believe sergei expects the firing point for target's 1 and 2 to be the same. So let's get started with my critique of your explanation, and at the same time, let's discuss Deephunter's post. We now begin.

I do not use O'Kane. I use a more accurate program called Solution Solver. It is a program created by gutted. The attacking captain pauses the game, opens his Solution Solver program, and enters the courses of the target ships and the attacking ship. The program calculates the firing point (i.e. the lead angle.) Gutted initially illustrated (I delelted the word "originated" per a post by Nisgeis, infra.) the constant bearing technique which is illustrated by Raven79 in post no. 5 of this thread. (Once you master the Solution Solver program, you can see the constant bearing technique in action.) The theories are identical whether you use the Solution Solver to calculate the lead angle or use O'Kane's rule of thumb method, but the Solution Solver provides the precise lead angle (to one tenth of one percent) for an O'Kane shot (i.e. the broadside shot) based upon the target's speed and course relative to the attacking boat. For example, the Solution Solver may call for a lead angle of 7 degrees (i.e. to starboard) if the two targets are on headings from your starboard to port side. The PK is not activated, but the attacking boat will have entered the target's speed on the Attack Dial. Aob is 0 degrees. Range is set at max distance. Even though the PK is not operational, the Attack Dials' entries will be sent to the TDC, and the TDC will generate a torpedoe angle of 0 degrees. If the attacker fires when the target crosses the firing point of 7 degrees, torpedoes fired should make contact at 0 degrees. Agreed? The same principle applies to O'Kane but I believe the lead angles are either 10 or 15 degrees depending on the target's speed. O'Kane is best used at 1,500 yds. or less, while the lead angle in the Solution Solver, being precise, is theoretically good at any distance.

Now, assume target no. 2 is following target no. 1 at the same speed and on the same course. If you reset the TDC, which had an torpedo angle of 0 degrees for target no. 1, you will have to reset target's speed (same speed as target no. 1's.) The Aob will still be 0 degrees and you will have to reset range to max distance. Why do this? Why not skip this procedure completely and wait for target no. 2 to reach the firing point for the first target (7 degrees in example in the preceding paragraph)? Of course, there is a risk that target no. 2 will change course, but unless the course change is drastic, the firing point of 7 degrees will likely prove adequate to hit target no. 2. This begs the purported solution raised by Deephunter, which will now be addressed.

Deephunters post: If, as to target no. 2, you enter the firing solution by aiming the periscope at target no. 2 and then clicking the TDC dials, I agree that the torpedo angle will intersect target 2's position (i.e. its bearing). If target no. 2 is at 30 degrees when target no. 1 is at 7 degrees (i.e. when you fire torpedoes at target no. 1), the torpedo angle will be reset to 30 degrees if the periscope is aimed at target no. 2 and the Attack dials dials are reset. That is all fine and dandy, but the solution for target no. 2, the new target, does not take into account a lead angle!

How do you propose to take into account setting the lead angle when aiming the periscope in the direction of target no. 2? If you aim it at 30 degrees, the fired shots will miss target no. 2 to the target's stern. Why? Because target no. 2 will no longer be at the 30 degree bearing when the torpedoes intersect target no. 2's course. It will have moved off that bearing as it heads down its course towards 0 degrees. If you fire when target no. 2 is at a bearing of 30 degrees, by the time the torpedoes intersect its course at that angle, target no. 2 will have traveled to roughly 7 degrees to a bearing of 23 degrees. Theoretically, the same result will occur if you aim the periscope at 24 (lead angle of 6 degrees), 25 (lead angle of 5 degrees), 26 (lead angle of 4 degrees), 27 (lead angle of 3 degrees), 28 (lead angle of 2 degrees), and 29 degrees (lead angle of 1 degree), although there is a possibility the torpedoes will hit target no. 2 even though you have not provided for a lead angle of 7 degrees (i.e. you have not aimed the periscope at 23 degrees, thus providing for a lead angle of 7 degrees) because the ship may be a lengthy target (some ships are 500 feet in length). You with me so far. Don't fall asleep!

Also, be advised the Deephunter is not using the classic O'Kane method for target no. 2, because O'Kane contemplates a broadside, where torpedo impact occurs when the target is at 0 degrees, which is at a point where the target is displaying its full profile (i.e. length) to the incoming torpedoes as is the case when its Aob is 90 degrees. However, Target no. 2, will not yield its full profile in Deephunter's scenario as it is being targeted at an angle of 30 degrees (with an Aob of 60 degrees), so there will be a smaller profile for the torpedoes to home in on. (See Hitman's tutorial on manual targeting at 100% realism and his discussion and pictures of how a target's profile is affected by its aspect ratio.) It seems to me that the best odds of hitting target no. 2 with the point and shoot method, is to move the scope to around 20 degrees, and set the firing point at 27 degrees, yielding a lead angle of 7 degrees. (This will give you time to set up the shot for target no. 2 while it moves on its course from a bearing of 30 to 27 degrees.) Assuming you are firing at 1,000 yards or less, you may hit it, even if its aspect ratio (profile) is not 100 percent. Longer distances than 1,000 yards decrease your chances of a successful attack on target no. 2 at an angle of 30 degrees because of the targets diminished aspect ratio. This holds true regardless if you use the Solution Solver or the O'Kane method. The key is firing with a lead angle of 7 degrees in our hypothetical. If the lead angle were 7.4 degrees under the Solution Solver program, firing accurately at long distances become dicey if you fire at 7 degrees (a difference of .4 degrees), and is extremely problematical if you use the "rules of thumb" for the O'Kane method because you are using preset firing angles of 10 or 15 degrees, depending on the target's speed. A .4 degree change in the firing angle can amounts to several hundred yards when the target is at long range.

Finally, and this should complete my analysis, what is the difference between the O'Kane method and the Solution Solver program?

The Solution Solver program provides a precise lead angle, as mentioned previously. The lead angle will theoretically lead to torpedo impacts with the target at any angle and at any distance. The problem is that at long distance accuracy is elusive. If a lead angle of 7.4 degrees is called for, for example, and the target is a destroyer at a range of 3,000 yds. heading straight for the attacking boat, its aspect ratio is very small. You can confirm this by looking at the target on the Attack Map if you have enabled a mod that shows the target's profile. As the profile of the target is diminished due to its long range, the odds of a successful shot diminish commensurately. It is harder to hit a small target. The lead angle and target's speed must be set precisely the greater the distance to the target. And if that is not enough to discourage an hard charging captain from trying for a long shot, setting the periscope to 7.4 degrees is virtually impossible, as the periscope settings are not calibrated in tenths of degrees. Thus, a successful shot is likewise a virtual impossibility under either circumstance. However, for shot of 1,000 yds. or less, using the Solution Solver to attack ships at odd angles relying on the lead angle generated by the program should work. I have done it once, but I routinely set up for a broadside.

On the other hand, the O'Kane technique shortcuts calculation of the lead angle. It has two. One lead angle for targets traveling at a speed of 15 kts. or less. and another for faster targets. The attacking boat positions itself for a classic broadside with a torpedo's angle at 0 degrees. The lead angles are rules of thumb estimates. O'Kane is fast and relieable at 1,000 yds. If the target is more than 1,500 yards, the O'Kane method is less reliable (accurate), and if the target is at long range or at other than a 90 degree angle, cross your fingers and hope. The reason for this is that the firing angles in the O'Kane method are rough rules of thumb and are not precise enough to work at long distance or at angles that differ significantly from the classic broadside shot.

Now, do not despair. All is not lost for long range shots at a variety of angles. There is alternative attack method for long range shots and angles. It is implemented with the Easy Aob mod, which was runner up for the mod of the year for 2009. Also, you can use the Cromwell attack for a long distance shot, but again, this is not a broadside shot with impact at 0 degrees as contemplated by the O'Kane method.

Nap Nap - word of advice. I would not have jumped in to respond to my post unless I was absolutely certain of what I was questioning. You may have missed the point of my post. I had no issue with sergei, and even noted it in a previous post. I think Deephunter discussed a scenario that was either incomplete or which I was unable to follow. He may be on to something, and if he is, I am interested in his input. I was waiting for his reply. After all, we submariners are Masters of the Ambush. However, you have grasped sergei's analysis, no doubt about it.

That is my two cents worth, and I spent some time thinking about it. Feel free to educate me if I am off target (pun intended.) Where is deephunter?

[nappy]

ill make a short comment and it is:

wow.. i will have to digest this for some time, your knowledge far surpasses mine :doh:

nappy

[Nisgeis]

Gutted originated the constant bearing technique which is illustrated by Raven79 in post no. 5 of this thread.

He did? Does the solution solver pre-date the Cromwell method?

[I'm goin' down]

He did? Does the solution solver pre-date the Cromwell method?

Just like Nisgeis! I guess I should have expected it. Okay. I might, and "might" (as in "concieveably") is what I mean, be incorrect.

In Robbins' sticky, he has a post from Rocks' n' Shoals dated November 28, 2008 re the constant bearing method, using the TDC (Constant Bearing Method, with TDC.)

However if you review Robbins' thread in his sticky entitled Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks--Techniques, tactics, tutorials, videos,
post no 9, dated January 21, 2009 (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1030585&postcount=9), Robbins states as follows:

I just thought this morning I would post the pic I received from gutted just over a year ago that started me on all this craziness in my specialty of constant bearing longitudinal spread attacks. This really shows why, in this family of attack methods, range cancels out of the equation and simply doesn't matter: (Here follows the illustrated constant bearing attack copied by Raven79 in post 5 of this thread which I referred to, ascribed to gutted, and which you have questioned.)

Based upon the foregoing, I concluded that gutted introduced the constant bearing method, as Robbins notes that gutted raised it more than one year before his January 21, 2009 post. This means that gutted raised it before January 21, 2008. Since Rocks' n' Shoals' post is dated at least ten months and 7 days later (November 28, 2008), I assumed that gutted came up with the theory.

If my assumption is incorrect, by all means enlighten us. As to the Cromwell method, I do not recall when it was introduced, but I recall you were instrumental in its development. Gutted's Solution Solver program, which I believe is a masterpiece, hit the forum shortly after ddrgn and nicolas introduced the Easy Aob mod, and both the mod and the program post-dated the Cromwell method.

[Nisgeis]

If my assumption is incorrect, by all means enlighten us.

The mathmatics behind these things has been around for a very long time. The 'solution solver' works on exactly the same principle as the is-was, which was invented in 1922. The first attempt for SH4, that I know of to reproduce this device was here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=106923

Which is the plans for a printable is-was, which was released just before SH4 was on 6th March 2007, whilst people were waiting for release day. It's exactly the same. This device itself is a copy of the original, which was designed in 1922 and has been copied in some form for other fleet boat based games, like SH1, over the years. It's a vector analysis calculator, used for zero gyro angle shots. If you want to be impressed, then look up the Torpedo Angle Solver Mark VIII or 'Banjo' as it was better known, due to its resemblance to the instrument. That would go far far beyond just simple zero gyro angle shots and would actually calculate, on a hand held device, the gyro angle the torpedo needed.

So, Captain Krunch was the first to bring the concept of the 'solution solver' to SH4, and even the first external to game 'solution solver' but the concept itself has been around for 78 years so far in that exact form.

There are documents out there that describe attack details from the 1940s that we (as a community) don't really understand today. The is-was solution solver was definately not originated by anybody on these forums, or probably even alive today.

[I'm goin' down]

It is hard for me to get a handle where you are at re manual targeting. First, that you are working on it is a good thing. I watched every tutorial and practiced till I was blue in the face to figure some of this stuff out. When you look at the Solution Solver program for the first few hours, everything looks upside down and backwards (no kidding!) Unless you are using the Easy Aob mod, which is applied with the PK activated (so the TDC calculates the lead angle), you have to factor a lead lead angle into all of your shots. The faster the target, the larger the lead angle. When you have a warship doing 30 kts., your lead angle might be 30 degrees.

Remember, the lead angles proferred by O'Kane method are rules of thumb. O'Kane's major limitation is that it is most accurate at 1,000 yds., although Nisgeis or Robbins could probably provide more precise inner and outer accurate ranges for the method. Because the O'Kane method does not calculate the lead angle precisely, its accuracy decreases if the distance to the target is too great, if the ship is going really fast or really slow, or is not at a 90 degree Aob when at a bearing of 0 degrees to the attacking boat at the time of projected torpedo impact. But, because it is fast to set up and reliable at 1,000 yds, it is of great value to all skippers. I do not use it very much any more, because I find that I can set up a Solution Solver attack with minimal time, and the lead angle is more precise. However, that is my personal choice. If I do not have a perfect broadside at 0 degrees, the precision of the Solution Solver program's lead angle is forgiving and leads to successful shots. Now, if only my torpedoes would stop running underneath the keel of the targets! However, I do want to discourage you from using Rockin Robbins' O'Kane method.

Spend some time on my post and your understanding of all of this will improve. It is not easy to conceptualize or to put into practice.

[I'm goin' down]

I had no idea. I tried to download the pdf mentioned in the post, but the link is expired. I did not get into this until late, and the older stuff is out of my reach. If you haven't tried the Solution Solver, you ought to check it out.

(Hey, I have been looking at your radar range mod. I am confused. I think I need a more elementary explanation. There is a lot to learn. How does it help in an attack? That is something I haven't figured out. If you want to post a response in the mods thread, I'll look for it.)

[Nisgeis]

I had no idea. I tried to download the pdf mentioned in the post, but the link is expired. I did not get into this until late, and the older stuff is out of my reach. If you haven't tried the Solution Solver, you ought to check it out.

The links in that thread appear to be dead, but the PDFs are mirrored on the HNSA site, which has lots of reproductions of the WWII manuals for the pieces of kit we'd kill for today. The link for the Is-Was solution solver is:

http://www.hnsa.org/doc/attackfinder/index.htm

And you can download the PDFs and images there if you want to make your own hand held one. In a real sub, someone would have one of these round his neck and keep it synched with the TDC in case the TDC stopped working, so they'd have a backup. There have even been several versions of this throughout the years on these forums, with one other printable version appearing (I think), though I can't find it right now.

(Hey, I have been looking at your radar range mod. I am confused. I think I need a more elementary explanation. There is a lot to learn. How does it help in an attack? That is something I haven't figured out. If you want to post a response in the mods thread, I'll look for it.)

It helps in that you know the exact range of a target at anywhere up to 40,000 yards away. You can use it to plot an exact course, or use it in conjunction with the 'Exstimate Course and Speed' function to get a semi accurate (within a knot and a degree) course and speed. Exact range is a must if you are using non vector analysis methods with larger gyro angles, like for example broadsides from bow and sterm tubes.

[green_abobo]

thanx for the replies guys, i appriciate it. Though it seems i have not
been able to express my problem propperly.

I can set speed, AoB and distance just nicely on manual. My problem
is setting AoB for the second target withouth going to the nav map?


targeting manually is different for everyone as far as how they "do" it. to add to an already astonishing number of replies...

some tips...for forward tubes anyway,stay with me here...:03:

chances are, if they are all traveling in convoy, the AOB for the lot of em will be almost the same, or very similar,unless they know you are there and are trying to run.

the trick is to get all the torps away before they figure out you're there. :rock:

AOB is not the be-all-end-all IMO anyway.

as long as your speed is correct, and the range extends to at least as far as the target is away from you, you should be alright.

then you simply control it from the dial in periscope view,w/o using the position keeper (or the stupid stadiometer) for a 0 gyro shot (i.e. periscope bearing at zero) preferably as close to 90 degrees as you can get.

rockin' robbins is the guy that taught me this. (mad props) as the vulnerable parts of the ship pass the zero bearing, let 'er rip!:yep:

and yes, you should use the nav map to get an initial AOB measurement, after that, it's all done in periscope view. with enough practice,you will be able to "eyeball" it...weather permitting of course.

rule of thumb that is a must for AOB calculation, you have to set it for the correct side of the ship that the contact is presenting you. it's moving left to right,AOB's starboard,right to left,port.

(queue the irrelevant example that hopefully proves my point) if it's 0, they are coming right at you. 180 they are running away,so it doesn't matter.

anything more or less than that you MUST choose a side (port or starboard) to fire at.

another HUGE and overlooked thing to remember,make sure your torpedo depth is proper. use the recog. manual to get the draft of their bow,and set their depth accordingly.

you can have the speed,AOB,and the range perfect, but it don't mean squat if the torps run under the keel of your target. :wah:

i sincerely do hope i have been more of a help than a hindrance. thank you for your time sir.:ping:

[I'm goin' down]

then you can tackle firing using aft tubes! It is not too difficult if you think about it. The solution solver program gives you a choice of firing angles. You can get the firing angles for forward or stern tubes which is the default. If you check the box, you get the firing angle for the stern tubes. You set the Aob at 180 degrees rather than zero. In all other respects, it works the same as O'Kane/Solution Solver using forward tubes.

There are many ways to skin the cat, so to speak. Use the one you like the best and that works for you.

Then... you can learn to use Easy Aob using stern tubes.

Then...oh, forget it!

[I'm goin' down]

targeting manually is different for everyone as far as how they "do" it. to add to an already astonishing number of replies...

some tips...for forward tubes anyway,stay with me here...:03:

chances are, if they are all traveling in convoy, the AOB for the lot of em will be almost the same, or very similar,unless they know you are there and are trying to run.

the trick is to get all the torps away before they figure out you're there. :rock:

AOB is not the be-all-end-all IMO anyway.

as long as your speed is correct, and the range extends to at least as far as the target is away from you, you should be alright.

then you simply control it from the dial in periscope view,w/o using the position keeper (or the stupid stadiometer) for a 0 gyro shot (i.e. periscope bearing at zero) preferably as close to 90 degrees as you can get.

rockin' robbins is the guy that taught me this. (mad props) as the vulnerable parts of the ship pass the zero bearing, let 'er rip!:yep:

and yes, you should use the nav map to get an initial AOB measurement, after that, it's all done in periscope view. with enough practice,you will be able to "eyeball" it...weather permitting of course.

rule of thumb that is a must for AOB calculation, you have to set it for the correct side of the ship that the contact is presenting you. it's moving left to right,AOB's starboard,right to left,port.

(queue the irrelevant example that hopefully proves my point) if it's 0, they are coming right at you. 180 they are running away,so it doesn't matter.

anything more or less than that you MUST choose a side (port or starboard) to fire at.

another HUGE and overlooked thing to remember,make sure your torpedo depth is proper. use the recog. manual to get the draft of their bow,and set their depth accordingly.

you can have the speed,AOB,and the range perfect, but it don't mean squat if the torps run under the keel of your target. :wah:

i sincerely do hope i have been more of a help than a hindrance. thank you for your time sir.:ping:

You and I have a problem, misunderstanding or something of that nature. I do not believe the firing point is zero degrees unless I have misunderstood Rockin Robbins' tutorials for the last several years. The firing point is a bearing that is not zero degrees. For example, it can be 349 degrees or 12 degrees, depending on the course and speed of the targeted ship. It has been described by some including Robbins as the point where the target crosses the wire. The torpedo angle is different. It is 0 degrees. When you fire as the ship crosses the wire, assuming the set up is correct, the torpedoes will impact the target at 0 degrees. In every day parlance, it means that the torpedo runs straight out of the bow tubes and does not have have a gyro angle to either the port or starboard side of the attacking boat. So their is no misunderstanding as to what I am proffering, 0 degrees is the point of impact of the torpedo and the target. In your post, you mention firing when the target passes 0 degrees and firing at the juicy parts of the target as they cross that point. I believe this is incorrect. If you fire at the juicy parts of the target when they cross the wire, the torpedoes should hit them as those parts cross 0 degrees. If as you suggest, you fire as the target passes 0 degrees, the target will not be at that bearing when the torpedoes arrive at that point.

Don't you mean that the attacking boat should launch torpedoes when the juicy parts of the target cross the lead angle, aka the firing point, aka the wire? This is the point at which you launch torpedoes using the Cromwell method, and although the impact points is 45 or 135 degrees, the concept of firing as the target crosses the lead angle is the same.

Correct me if I am mistaken please.

[Rockin Robbins]

I prefer the Solution Solver to O'Kane. The firing wire (firing point) is more precise. For second targets on the same course, wait until they cross the wire. And, if you get really proficient, Solution Solver works at any angle.
Wrong. The firing point is just as precise in the Dick O'Kane method. And there are no extra-game math gymnastics to worry about, no external calculators, no lead angle tables, no need to pause the game, alt-tab out, do the hocus-pocus, return, enter the numbers you perfectly remember from the external calculator.... No mistakes from doing all that incorrectly.

The Dick O'Kane method is based on the simplest possible solution, using in-game resources only, simple math and rules of thumb, all aimed on eliminating human error during the input process. As a result, it is, if anything, more precise than the Solution Solver, which is a great tool if used perfectly. But any time you use a tool outside of the game itself, you introduce many opportunities for error. You will make all of them and so would I.

Also, the John P Cromwell method predates the Solution Solver by a long way. Nisgeis conceived the concept and the accompanying vector solution method and I added a Dick O'Kane style rule of thumb method to go along with the technique. Both of those methods also can be done VERY quickly without pausing your game with no external tools. The possibilities for human error either with the rule of thumb calculation or the vector analysis method are magnitudes less than if you pause the game and use the Solution Solver or external lead angle tables. The vector analysis also works for any angle between own course and target track, just as the Solution Solver does. But vector analysis is quicker and more foolproof. It also verifies its accuracy by mere inspection!

There's also a reality disconnect in stopping time to make calculations then resuming the orderly progression of time to implement the result of those timeless calculations. It especially ceases to make any sense at all when it is totally unnecessary to do it at all! With the Dick O'Kane or John P Cromwell methods, you set up your solution minutes or even more than a half hour before you fire, maneuver the boat in real time, take your sight and press the fire button, all in real time! How can a more time consuming, more complicated, more error prone method be thought superior? It's technically interesting but the application is problematical.

[Deephunter]

OK...There are limitations to the O'Kane method. As mentioned above, it's ideally suited for a 90 deg. AoB less a lead angle (10-15 deg.). But I've hit targets that deviated from this by as much as 15-25 deg. by just resetting the bearing. This at relatively short ranges (600-800 yds). For targets that deviate by more than the "fudge factor" I "eyeball" the AoB from the targets apparent course as viewed through the scope and reset AoB and bearing.

Note that I resort to these "untraditional" schemes only when I find myself in the middle of a canvoy which starts scattering after one or two ships are hit, and there are just too many targets of opportunity to let go. In less strenous settings I stick by the rules. Also, I NEVER pause the game, "Tab" out, or do any similar shennanigans...That's cheatin'....

[Rockin Robbins]

I would say it's not so much cheatin' (even though it is exactly that), but by interrupting time, your mind's picture of the action is interrupted, your combat awareness suffers and something you forgot will bite you in the kiester. Yes, on a real submarine there was an officer running the is/was, but he was not running the attack. He was simply a check on the TDC solution, working during the same time the attack progressed. When we do calculations outside of time, we lose everything about what made the is/was a valid tool on the real submarine.

[I'm goin' down]

Explain this to me. Forget the fact that Solution Solver has to be worked with the game paused. At long distance, how can O'Kane possible be more accurate? O'Kane uses rules of thumb for the lead angles. If O'Kane calls for a lead angle of, say, 10 degrees, and the Solution Solver calls for 6 degrees, there is a difference of 4 degrees. At 2,500 yds., are you declaring that O'Kane is just as accurate? At 3,000 yds.? etc.? I am no math whiz, but it cannot be true.

If you do not like pausing the game to set up the Solution Solver, that is your personal issue as it is mine to elect to use it. I pretend I am switching jobs from captain to specialist, and I am fine with that. I actually enjoy it. I have conceded the O'Kane is practical at 1,000-1,500 yds. If I am off re O'Kane's range of accuracy , I leave it to you to correct. But you will need to convince me that O'Kane works as well as the Solution Solver at long ranges. A four degree difference at 2,500 yds. tells me that O'Kane would miss the shot, whereas the Solution Solver would hit the target or come damn close.

By the way, how have you been lately? We haven't talked for a couple of years now.

Cheater, fka IGD.

[NorthBeach]

The 10 degree lead angle is only for shooting to get the best possible (nearest to 90deg) strike angle possible. You've fed the target speed into the TDC, so the torpedo's gyro angle doesn't figure to 10deg. I often set up at 20 deg to get my torps to angle, unobstructed, to the far (4000 yards) column of the convoy.

[I'm goin' down]

what you are saying north beach is that on the long shots you guess at the lead angle. Isn't that the case? Let's wait for Robbins' to respond.

[green_abobo]

You and I have a problem, misunderstanding or something of that nature. If as you suggest, you fire as the target passes 0 degrees, the target will not be at that bearing when the torpedoes arrive at that point.

Don't you mean that the attacking boat should launch torpedoes when the juicy parts of the target cross the lead angle, aka the firing point, aka the wire? This is the point at which you launch torpedoes using the Cromwell method, and although the impact points is 45 or 135 degrees, the concept of firing as the target crosses the lead angle is the same.

Correct me if I am mistaken please.

i understand the misunderstanding i think. i was confused about it too at first.i dont know what method it is,somewhat of the o'kane i think.

when you fire from zero on the scope, you arent leading the target with it,that's done with the speed and AOB calculation you input,and the torps will lead themselves if this information is accurate.

if you are really concerned about the lead angle,you can check it by checking the attack map and that is the gyro angle,even though you're firing at zero.

the torps are fired from 0 degrees on the scope,but,as long as your speed calculation is spot on, where the actual torps hit is in direct correlation with the speed and AOB imputed on the TDC dial.

hence,they will hit (and they should if everything including proper depth is inputted) in the 350ish degree bearing if the contact is traveling right to left (port AOB) or in the 10ish degree bearing if the target is traveling left to right (starboard AOB) the faster the contact is traveling, the more the torpedo will veer right or left.

i guess what i'm trying to say is that although you fire at zero degrees, depending on the speed and AOB, they will by default be lead and impact either to the left or right a few degrees from zero.

this will work for BOTH fleet and uboats, although the TDC controls are altogether a different animal. the concept is the same.if you miss,something's wrong. usually the speed or the depth are the usual suspects.

hopefully you understand what the heck i'm trying to say.:88)

i wish i had a video to show you,but the one in robbins' sig under skipper's bag of tricks:http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=652326&postcount=67 is probably the best tutorial to demonstrate what i mean.

[I'm goin' down]

i will check it out.

Having been accused of cheating by Robbins, I will sign off as

Cheater, fkn IGD

[NorthBeach]

IDG- I don't guess at anything. I give the TDC the information that it needs to do it's job. Which is to calculate a collision angle for a projectile with a known speed with a target with another known speed.

I enter target speed into the TDC. Set the boat up at 90 deg. I set the AOB 20 degs off 90 (70 deg, port or starboard, as appropriate). Give that to the TDC. Swing the scope 20 deg off 360, pull the range down to short range (the torp doesn't know, or care) and send to TDC to use as my target bearing. Finally, I set my torpedo speed (depth, as well. But, the TDC doesn't care about that piece of info).

If I have done my part correctly and given the TDC good data, it will know that a 12kt target needs a 15deg lead, factor in my lead angle and AOB, and set up the correct solution. It would do the same thing if I made the aiming bearing 25degs, 15deg, or 10 deg (but, the torpedo would end up chasing the target, increasing the chance that it would be spotted, thus evaded). I don't need to guess at anything. Though, I have learned to glance at the Attack Chart as soon as the scope clears the water to quickly see if a gyro adjustment need to be made due to target course variance...

After two years of manually targeting, the O'Kane is still my go-to if time and conditions are on my side. Convoy or not.

(HUGE Kudos to Rockin Robbins & the Bag of Tricks!!!)

[I'm goin' down]

I prefer the lead angle set by the Solution Solver. No gyro angle. Aob of zero. The rest is the same as O'Kane, but the Solution Solver, although it can be used at any angle, provides a quick and precise method for turning the boat perpendicular to the target's course without having to pencil a 90 degree angle from the target's course to your boat, which frankly I find to be a pain the ass. You like potato and I like patato. If it works for you, fine by me. But it is no better or more accurate than the program that a cheater (according to Robbins) like me uses. My lead angle is precise as long as the target's speed is measured accurately. It works like the lead angle in the Cromwell method.

BTW, I haven't looked at RR 3x5 card re O'Kane for some time, but you describe building a gyro angle. I do not think that is O'Kane. I thought O'Kane had a lead angle built in to the method based upon target speed and a gyro angle of 0 degrees. ???

[sergei]

what you are saying north beach is that on the long shots you guess at the lead angle


No. The TDC figures out your lead angle.
Which is different from your firing bearing.
I may be aiming my periscope at 10 degrees.
That does not mean I am leading it by 10 degrees.
The lead angle changes depending on the targets speed.

To re-iterate. The firing bearing may be chosen arbritrarily, but the lead angle is computed by the TDC.

[I'm goin' down]

I assume the PK is off. If so, how does the TDC figure the lead angle? If you can, point me to the thread in RR's sticky that explains it. I may have some work to do.

[Nisgeis]

The PK is only responsible for updating the target's relative position to you. The output of the PK is fed into the angle solver which calculates the lead angle. The PK does not have to be running in order to be sending the target's data to the angle solver. Update the bearing and range and the angle solver will crunch the new numbers. There is a slight bug with the PK off though and that's that you have to send the range twice.

[Munchausen]

... how does the TDC figure the lead angle?

:cool: You can see it done by checking the attack map after setting up. For an "unadjusted" 90 degree shot, the green line will curve off in the direction your target is heading. That's the TDC's computed lead angle. By adjusting your firing point a few degrees early, you'll notice how the TDC's torpedo track (green line) moves closer to the bow of your boat.

[I'm goin' down]

As I understand O'Kane, you first clear the TDC setting. Then you set enter the target's speed, set the Aob at 90 degrees, and adjust and enter range at maximum. You double click the Attack Dials to send the information to the TDC. If this is wrong, then everything that follows will be incorrect, and I need to go back to sub school. For now, and until you advise me that in addition to being a cheater for using the Solution Solver program I do not understand O'Kane, let's assume it is correct. At speeds of < 15 kts, you fire when the ship crosses the wire 10 degrees before it is at a 0 degree bearing to the attacking boat and fire at 20 degrees when it is moving at > 15 kts. The 10 and 20 degree firing points are lead angles. As I understand it, the torpedo runs straight and hits the target around 0 degrees. (At least that is what the torpedo does in the Solution Solver program, but the Aob setting for the Solution Solver is set at 0 degrees and not 90 degrees. Don't jump in and respond yet. I have posed some questions below that should help me figure this out.

I hear what you are saying in the immediate above posts, but I cannot visualize it because what I have been reading in this thread is different than what I formerly understood happens in O'Kane. Let's assume a target is approaching my boat's port side at 10 kts, range 1500 yds., and its bearing is 340 degrees. The PK is off. Speed has been input via double clicking the Attack Dials. I fire one shot when the target passes 340 degrees.

Here are my questions.

(1) If I aim the scope at 340 degrees and fire, won't the shot miss?
(2) Doesn't the torpedo intersect the target's course at 340 degrees? (By the time it get's there, the target will be at a different bearing.)
(3) Or does the TDC adjust for the 10 kt. speed that has been input on the Attack Dials? If it does, I assume the torpedo's gyro angle has been calculated by the TDC.

Two other questions are:

(4) In the Solution Solver program, the Aob is set to 0 degrees, not 90 degrees, which I believe is the Aob for an O'Kane broadside shot. What is the Aob setting in the above scenario, which I do not believe is a broadside shot? Is the Aob 0 degrees or 90 degrees in O'Kane? If it is neither of those agnles, what is it? (plus, if is not 0 or 90 degrees, it is beginning to look like manual targeting akin the Easy Aob mod but without the PK on.)

(5) In O'Kane, as I understand it (I am not sure now if I really do understand it), range is set at max. Do we set range at max in this scenario? If not, again it looks like manual targeting.

(6) (a) Is the above hypothetical (firing when the target is at 340 degrees, 10 kt. speed, and max range) the O'Kane technique? It is not going to intersect the target at a 90 degree Aob.

(6) (b) If not, is O'Kane limited to situations where the lead angle applies only when the TDC is cleared, ships speed is entered, Aob is set to 90 degrees, and the range set a max?

I assume you will have loads of fun with this!

[green_abobo]

although from a scholarly standpoint i would love to be familiar with and fully understand the aforementioned tactics,i just want to kill things and have fun doing it by not missing a lot.

so we save that stuff for the books and internet.not wikipedia either.

what works?

set the stadiometer for maximum range. yes maximum,although the closer you are the better. keep in mind that torpedoes only travel so far according to type/speed setting if you are trying a looong shot.

enter the speed (time for 2:59---> contact traveled distance divided by 10=speed in knots ala the nav map) and AOB accordingly using the nav map plotted intercept.(protractor) 90 is the rule of thumb because it presents the maximum aspect of the contact, but it could be more or less.

set depth by the draft of the contact's identity in recog. manual

as ship passes 0 fire. the bigger the ship,the more torps it needs to sink it.dont forget to flood tubes beforehand or the timing of the attack is off.

simple as that. duds however cannot be helped.

IDK which method it is. most likely a hybrid of several. that works. slightly different for uboats,but same concept.

95k last voyage. no refits. seriously.

for the sake of not beating the poor old dead horse, and the sake of other skippers here on the forum, if you're still confused,PM me and i will try and hammer it out more clearly for you.

good luck.

[I'm goin' down]

enter the speed (time for 2:59---> contact traveled distance divided by 10=speed in knots ala the nav map)


IDK which method it is. most likely a hybrid of several. that works. slightly different for uboats,but same concept.



First, I do not sink as much tonnage because in TMO2.0 dds chase your boat around all day long, and when you finally surface Ducimus' aircraft bomb the ---- out of it.

speed-what are you trying to say. Speed is calculated under the 3 minute rule. If a ships travels 1500 yds in three minutes, its speed is 15 kts. That means you divide 1500 yds by 100, not by 10 last time I looked.

IDK is a term that I have never heard before. What does it mean?

[Raven79]

IDK = I don't know
;)

[I'm goin' down]

I may have figured out where my problem is via the O'Kane method. You point the periscope at 90 degrees minus the lead angle of 10 degrees or 20 degrees, as the case may be. I understand why the Aob is set to 90 degrees--because that is where the target will be when the torpedo crosses its course. Before using the O'Kane method, don't you clear the TDC as RR instructs re the Cromwell method?

Is there some other bearing, say 30 degrees, where you can point the periscope and still hit the target using O'Kane?:hmmm:

And how do you point the TBT to 10 or 20 degrees? See RR's 3x5 card where is gives that as an option. Isn't the TBT the device on the right of the screen with the two ships' dials, one of which represents the Attacking boat and the other the Target? How can you point those?:hmmm:

This has exhausted me.

[Nisgeis]

And how do you point the TBT to 10 or 20 degrees? See RR's 3x5 card where is gives that as an option. Isn't the TBT the device on the right of the screen with the two ships' dials, one of which represents the Attacking boat and the other the Target? How can you point those?:hmmm:

Nope, that's the TDC, which is the Torpedo Data Computer. The TBT is the Target Bearing Transmitter, or the binoculars on a stand that's on the bridge. It's the U key (maybe?), as it's the equivalent of the German UZO.

[I'm goin' down]

Okay. Thanks Nisgeis.

[Rockin Robbins]

I don't recall accusing anyone of cheating.:D I guess I need to describe the Dick O'Kane method more clearly and explain how I arrived at using it.

I started out with my course at right angles to the target track and using gutted's lead angle chart to determine the lead angle. then I could do as the Solution Solver procedure does. First set the torpedo track at zero degrees. Pick the correct chart for the torpedo you are using, grab the line for target speed and choose the correct column for torpedo speed. Note that you have introduced three sources of error: page, line and column. Mess one up and your torpedo is wasted. The first two times I used the method I picked the wrong column and watched the torpedo swim harmlessly past the target.

I thought "if I did this stupid error then others will too." After all you are in a time pressured environment and multiple choices plus time pressure equals error. And then I thought: the TDC automatically knows which torpedo I'm using (automatically chooses the page) and knows the set speed (chooses the column). So if I can use the TDC to figure my lead angle, I only have to remember to input the target speed into the TDC and I'm golden! I've eliminated 2/3 of the opportunities for stupid operator error.

So that is what I did. Supplying the TDC with target speed and setting the AoB for 90 minus my chosen shoot bearing, the TDC picked the lead angle, and didn't shoot the torpedo where I aimed the scope but at the exact bearing ahead of the target to hit perfectly where I aimed! I could arbitrarily pick any shoot bearing I wanted and the torp would strike home!

Knowing that the US Navy considered any gyro angle under 30º to be "straight fire" I knew that even a 20º deviation from a zero gyro angle was completely inconsequential. I could guarantee a guess well under 5º, six times more accurate than necessary for success! (actually my acceptable error range was -30º to +30º, a total of 60º slop with NO CONSEQUENCES) All the fuss about zero gyro angles was arguing about how many naked angels could dance on the head of a pin, then fussing about how much and what manner of clothing would impact that number. They were introducing error producing complexity for no gain.

Perfectly executed, Solution Solver attacks are as accurate as Dick O'Kane attacks. I'm just not a perfect person and I devise methods I can use successfully, that's all. Perfect methods sometimes do little to produce perfect results. Simplicity produces the best results. The Dick O'Kane method, while not the answer to every attack situation, is simplicity itself. If it applies to the situation you find yourself in, it is going to get you hits.

Actually, believe it or not, Nisgeis and I were dissecting a very impressive but incomprehensible US Navy graph and came to the conclusion that the zero gyro angle shot wasn't quite the shot that would get the most hits. Actually your shot most tolerant for changes or errors in target speed and heading is a shot that strikes the target at a torpedo track angle of about 110º, that's 10º BEHIND the target's beam. This angle changes, increasing for higher target speeds. He and I were saying "fine! What the (insert profane expression of your choice. It's amazing what profanity properly used does to help come to incomprehensible solutions) does this mean to us? Like When do we shoot!" Playing with the numbers and cursing when appropriate, I slowly pried the sense out of the militarese. It turns out that you should shoot when the AoB is 90º! The target is straight in front of you and the gyro angle figures out to have the torpedo strike the target and the perfect optimal angle for maximum hits. I know this is counterintuitive (maka no sensa) but I assure you it is true. Is the gain enough to justify the trouble? With Dick O'Kane it is no trouble. With Solution Solver it IS trouble because it's designed to work around that zero gyro angle that the US Navy has proved is not optimal. Yeah, I was incredulous too...

The two graphs that caused all the headaches:

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/screenshot77.jpg http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/Silent%20Hunter%204/screenshot79.jpg

You know, those graphs could be modified to be a lot more readable......

[Munchausen]

:cool: Keep in mind that the adjustment to your scope is simply a "rule of thumb" ... personally, I use 1.5 degrees for each knot the target is moving ... with a fast torpedo. (2.0 degrees if I've set the torpedo to run slow.)

And, if you adjust your scope, you must also adjust the TDC setting ... 90 degrees minus whatever adjustment you made to the scope. Why? Because you're setting up for a shot where the target is supposed to be at a right angle to your bow ... as it crosses your bow. So, if you shoot with a lead angle of five or ten degrees, you will be shooting prior to the target reaching that right angle.

If that's too confusing, then just set up for a 90 without any lead. Scope at zero degrees (assuming a bow shot) and TDC set to 90 degrees. The TDC will then automatically adjust gyro angle to impact your target at some point past your bow.

:salute: While range to the target need not be accurate, I usually try to WAG it ... simply to give my stopwatch something to do.

[Rockin Robbins]

That is correct. Whatever firing bearing you choose, the TDC will automatically lead your target by the proper amount using the Dick O'Kane method.

With Dick O'Kane the lead angle isn't determined by you, but automatically by the TDC. With Solution Solver you must calculate the lead angle in a multi-step process, each step of which is another chance to introduce error.

[I'm goin' down]

it is becoming clearer. I'll give a shot or two.

[I'm goin' down]

Tell me why I missed please.

OKane gone wrong.

Target: jap carrier approaching from port side (traveling from USS Barbarinna's left to right)
Target Dials Cleared.
Target Speed=16 kts.
USS Barbarinna=90 degree angle to target's course.

Attack Dials:
Speed Setting: 16 kts.
Aob setting=74 degrees port. (90 degrees - 16 degrees (e.g. subtract 1 degree for each kt. of target's speed)
Range setting=Maximum distance.
Position Keeper=Never Activated.
All settings on the Attack Dials are double clicked.
Torpedoes set for slow running.
Torpedo doors open.
Torpedo Angle per Attack Map is approximately 29 degrees.
Range to target=1500 yds per Attack Map.

6 shots fired at the juicy parts of the target (along its entire length) as it passed 0 degrees.

Correction: 1 torpedo exploded early on its course. Two torpedoes exploded before they reach the target, but would have missed, as they were running ahead of the bow. Two torpedoes missed slightly ahead of the bow. One torpedo ran to deep, but would have hit the bow. Looking at a replay, the target appears to have turned to its port late in the approach to the firing angle and may not have been at an Aob of 90 degrees at the firing point., but it was not far off.

Why did the torpedes not hit the target? Alternatively, can you identify something wrong with the set up?

[Deephunter]

WRONG..!!...Was the scope hairline at 0 deg. or at 74 deg. when you sent range & bearing to the PK..?? It should have been at 74 deg., and at 74 deg. when you fired (at least in the O'Kane method...).

[green_abobo]

Tell me why I missed please.

OKane gone wrong.

Target: jap carrier approaching from port side (traveling from USS Barbarinna's left to right)
Target Dials Cleared.
Target Speed=16 kts.
USS Barbarinna=90 degree angle to target's course.


sounds like you're on the right "track" :D

in conclusion,assuming it was going 16 knots, i'm guessing your AOB and your torpedo depth are the culprits.

if the AOB 90 degrees,it's 90 degrees,forget about lead angles (74 degrees) and don't subtract anything unless you have to recalculate because it's changing bearing after you hit it, or you are spotted.

the T.D.C. will automatically figure the lead angle for you if the AOB,speed and range are inputted correctly,although 37 degrees sounds closeish.

what about torpedo depth? what was the draft according to the recognition manual?

do you use external cameras? this is a good way of checking to see what went wrong until you get the hang of it. if it goes under the keel,obviously your depth is wrong. if they get there too soon,your speed is too fast,just the opposite if it's too slow.

everything else sounds like you had it right,if it was indeed moving at 16 knots.

anyone else reiterate further?

[I'm goin' down]

Please. I have been using manual targeting for quite some time. I just reran the mission, which I had saved. This time I confirmed the carrier was close to a 90 degree Aob when I fired. However, I switched to fast torpedoes. The torpedoes' angles dropped about 10 degrees to around 20 degrees. Again I fired when the juicey parts of the target crossed 0 degrees (my bow). I shot them along the entire length of the carrier! All of the shots ran ahead of its bow.

Torpedo depth is or should not be a major issue here. Even though the tiime frame is May, 1941, I was aiming at a carrier and running depth for the torpedoes was 6 feet. These shots did not run underneath the target! Nor did most (4) of the torpedoes in my previous post. Only 1 did.

I will be interested to see what RR/Nisgeis have to say.

[I'm goin' down]

Where does it say that? That is a rhetorical question so don't answer. My scope was not even up when I set the 74 degrees in the Attack Dial for Aob. When a ship is stationary, I point the periscope at the target and when I lock on it, the TDC calculates the firing angle. Of course, in that scenario the target is stationary. Are you telling me I should set the Aob on the Attack Dial at 74 degrees while I am locked on to the target at that bearing when I double click the Aob dial? Or, do I set the Aob at based upon whatever the bearing that the target (that I have locked the periscope on) is situated at that moment if it is not at 74 degrees? Hopefully, your answer to both questions will be "yes." If so, I may finally understand this.

[Deephunter]

OK...three things...
1. You don't need the p'scope to set the AOB...It could be pointed at the moon when you send the info.
2. I never lock onto a target. When setting range and bearing I turn the scope to the AOB (74 in this case), and send the info (double click). Again the target could be anywhere at this point. When the target crosses the hairline (still at 74) I start firing at the "juicy" spots. It's a done deal....
3. Speed determination is crucial here. If you're off a few knots you'll get a LOT of misses. I check & double check target speed several times before making a final determination.

Again, I reiterate, this works for the O'Kane method. I'm not familiar with other targetting methods, since O'K has worked great for me. It's simple and quick, and EFFECTIVE.

Check out this video...It explains a lot better than I can....
http://www.filefront.com/10643361/Dick_OKane_targeting_video.7z

[Munchausen]

:cool: Run it again. This time, leave your AOB at 90 degrees and your crosshairs on the bow. Fire when the juicy parts cross the line.

Granted, it doesn't matter where the scope is pointed when you set AOB. But it does matter where it's pointed if you use its crosshairs for picking out the juicy parts. Crosshairs and AOB must match!

[Rockin Robbins]

Tell me why I missed please.

OKane gone wrong.

Target: jap carrier approaching from port side (traveling from USS Barbarinna's left to right)
Target Dials Cleared.

Minor point. There is never any need to clear anything. Inputting a new value merely replaces whatever was in there to begin with. As soon as you have input all three values, bearing/range, speed and AoB your solution has completely replaced anything that might have been in the TDC before. There is no harm in making all the values zero before you start, but you are just wasting your time doing something completely unnecessary. Better to eat a bowl of ice cream.:up:

Target Speed=16 kts.
USS Barbarinna=90 degree angle to target's course.

Attack Dials:
Speed Setting: 16 kts.
Aob setting=74 degrees port. (90 degrees - 16 degrees (e.g. subtract 1 degree for each kt. of target's speed)

OK, here is the first error. AoB is set according to the side of the target your are looking at. In this case, with the target coming from the left, you are looking at the starboard side of the target. So if you want to shoot at 16 degrees before the zero bearing, your AoB would be 90º-16º = 74º starboard not port. You're going to miss by a mile no matter what else you do right.

Range setting=Maximum distance.
Position Keeper=Never Activated.
All settings on the Attack Dials are double clicked.
Torpedoes set for slow running.
Torpedo doors open.
Torpedo Angle per Attack Map is approximately 29 degrees.
Range to target=1500 yds per Attack Map.

6 shots fired at the juicy parts of the target (along its entire length) as it passed 0 degrees.

Correction: 1 torpedo exploded early on its course. Two torpedoes exploded before they reach the target, but would have missed, as they were running ahead of the bow. Two torpedoes missed slightly ahead of the bow. One torpedo ran to deep, but would have hit the bow. Looking at a replay, the target appears to have turned to its port late in the approach to the firing angle and may not have been at an Aob of 90 degrees at the firing point., but it was not far off.

Why did the torpedes not hit the target? Alternatively, can you identify something wrong with the set up?

I like to set the range to something in the remote ballpark of the real range. Usually I will pull down the plastic indicator triangle of the TDC input dial all the way, resulting in a range input of about 1400 yards. With gyro angles under 30º this is not critical at all and maximum range will do fine.

You missed because your AoB was set completely wrong. Instead of leading your target, you were trailing it. This will tend to render torpedoes completely harmless...

[Rockin Robbins]

Check out this video...It explains a lot better than I can....
http://www.filefront.com/10643361/Dick_OKane_targeting_video.7z

I just checked out the video. It shows exactly the points I've talked about and I would only change one word if I were to redo it today. At one point early on I talk about setting the lead angle to 15º before the zero bearing. That is wrong. I was setting the aiming point, not the lead angle, which the
TDC set properly at 21º for that particular attack, with the torpedo striking when the target was at 6º.

Also notice that when my lips continued to flap after the target had already passed the planned shoot bearing, I set a new aiming bearing to about 3º without changiing the AoB. Of course that meant that the AoB calculated in the TDC was wrong. The actual AoB when I pressed the fire button was 90º plus 3º or 93º. The TDC had 75º in it. Result? Same old booms.

Central to the success of the Dick O'Kane method is ridiculous error tolerance. So we were off 28º on the AoB setting! No problem! Missed one of six shots. Any technique that can do that is all right by me. You could spend three times as long setting up an attack by another method but why?

[I'm goin' down]

I realized the error on the starboard setting. here is another question.
I just replayed the mission for practice.

I spotted the target at 289 degrees. If I lock the periscope on it and double click, the torpedo angle calculated the lead based upon on the target's speed which it turns out was 10.5 kts. The ships' dials on the left of the screen showed the target's bearing and a torpedo angle around 320 degrees (the target was a ways away.) But if I do not update the target's bearing, the torpedo angle and the target's bearing do not change on the ships dials. Are the changes accounted for in the TDC? If so, then I think this is beginning to make some sense.

I kept updating the bearing of the target by locking and clicking the periscope while the target approached, and clicking the range dial, updating the torpedoes lead angles. At 350 degrees I fired slow torpedoes. I had the Aob set at 80 degrees to port, and the scope locked on the middle of the target. The shots hit towards the rear of the carrier.

How can I avoid having to lock on the target and reset range frequently? Should I wait to reset range when the target is at 340 degrees? This where I get totally hung up. If I knew the TDC was tracking the target and preserving the lead angle, your method should work. And what does aiming the periscope have to do with anything?

Sorry I am such a pain in the butt.

[Munchausen]

:hmmm: The O'Kane method doesn't require a whole lot of updating ... just determine, as accurately as possible, the target's track and speed. Then:

Crank target speed into the TDC. This is critical.

Maneuver your sub so that your bow is perpendicular to the target's track. Also fairly critical.

You can now measure the distance your torpedo will travel. Crank that distance into the TDC. Not critical.

Set the TDC AOB to 90 degrees (forget trying to lead the target ... it can result in duds, anyway).

Make sure the TDC target symbol is pointed in the same direction (port or starboard) as your target is heading.

Put your scope crosshairs at zero degrees (pointed at the bow of the sub for a bow shot).

Check that target AOB and speed haven't changed in the TDC.


If you take a look at the attack map, you'll notice that the green line (torpedo track) is swerving off from the bow. That's because, with the current setup, the torpedo will be in pursuit ... striking the target slightly from behind.

Btw, you don't actually need a target to check this. You can simply set the solution up on the TDC using a "pretend" target. Then, with the TDC AOB at 90 degrees, check the attack map. Then adjust the TDC AOB into the target by a few degrees ... and watch as the green (torpedo track) line swings back toward the bow of your boat.

[Rockin Robbins]

How can I avoid having to lock on the target and reset range frequently? Should I wait to reset range when the target is at 340 degrees? This where I get totally hung up. If I knew the TDC was tracking the target and preserving the lead angle, your method should work. And what does aiming the periscope have to do with anything?

Sorry I am such a pain in the butt.

Uhhhhhhhh, watch the video and do what it says?:D

Bet you didn't know all that tracking is wasted time. Did you realize that the lead angle changes continuously as the bearing to target changes? In general it increases and increases as the target approaches your zero bearing, then begins decreasing as the target goes away. See the two strange graphs I posted earlier. They show the lead angle for different bearings.

So no, the TDC doesn't update the lead angle at all as the target approaches. It is set for the proper lead angle when the target finally gets to your chosen shoot bearing. This is true whether you use Dick O'Kane, John P Cromwell or the Solution Solver. They all work by predicting a future position, course and speed of your target, maneuvering your sub to put him there, pointing the scope to your chosen firing bearing and shooting as the target crosses the wire. That is why they are called constant bearing attack methods. They only work on the chosen attack bearing, which remains constant, never updated by the TDC or PK.

It is the PK that tracks the target as it moves. The TDC does no such thing. Look, I explained it this way once. Suppose you have your trusty shotgun and want to shoot cute little duckies flying across a pond. There are two ways to do this. You can sweep the gun across with and in front of the duck, tracking his movement and lead him by the proper amount. Then you can shoot at any time. This is how we shoot with the position keeper.

Or you can predict an arbitrary position where the duck must cross, point the gun steadily at that position and time the shot for the proper lead angle. That is what happens with our constant bearing methods. We're aiming at an empty spot in the water and timing a shot for that spot so that a target and a torpedo attempt to occupy it at the same time!

If you want to do it Munchausen's way, which will give you the US Navy approved ideal torpedo track for most course and speed tolerant solution you don't even have to subtract from 90! Just set the speed, set AoB to 90, point the scope at zero, hit send range/bearing two times and wait for your victim. You don't have to follow the target clicking uselessly, you don't have to do anything but lurk with scope down watching your sonar bearing. When he's about 10 degrees from the firing point, raise the scope, find the guy, point the scope at zero bearing and shoot as he crosses the wire. The torpedoes will hit the parts of the target that are under the crosshair.

Disadvantage to waiting for the zero bearing to shoot? More time for your victim to find you. But you don't really care about that because you are patiently waiting with periscope down. You can even set the TDC up with the scope underwater. The only thing that's important is what direction the scope points when you send the bearing to the TDC. There doesn't need to be a target visible when you do so. Most of the time I have my TDC set up before I ever see the target visually. It's ready a full hour before I shoot.

[cptroyce]

RR- Watched your tutorial and like it alot. Easy to understand for a novice (me), and produces a good result..also you sound like Mr.Rogers,..which is always comforting in an attack situation :salute: !

Royce

[Deephunter]

I set up my shots like RR says. I know the target's course and speed, so I determine my heading and manouver the sub to intercept his course at 90 deg AOB at some point in time. I input speed, AOB and range and bearing well in advance of the attack taking place. I also set up my torpedoes at this time. If "party time" is relatively close, I'll open the tubes as well. In most instances I haven't even seen the target except as a point on a map. I keep track of the target with sonar, and will come to PD and raise the scope a few minutes before Zero hour and set the scope to the bearing I inputted into the TDC. Then I wait a few minutes till the victim begins crossing the hairline and fire....

Gotta love it..!! :D

[I'm goin' down]

RR- Watched your tutorial and like it alot. Easy to understand for a novice (me), and produces a good result..also you sound like Mr.Rogers,..which is always comforting in an attack situation :salute: !

Royce

Har! Har! I have had it wrong. It is Rockin Rogers, not Rockin Ribbins.:haha:

[I'm goin' down]

I am off again and to give it a shpt (pun intended). I think I just figured out what you are saying. Let me check it out and call you back, er, I mean post a reply.

[green_abobo]

no news is good news? :D

[Munchausen]

Just set the speed, set AoB to 90, point the scope at zero, hit send range/bearing two times and wait for your victim.

:cool: The reason you click "send range/bearing" twice is because, on one click, it sets torpedo gyro angle (check the arrow on the sub's dial of the TDC) and, on the second click, it sets the impact point of your target (check the arrow on the target's dial of the TDC).

[I'm goin' down]

I had some success, actually. I went to the sub school and practiced at various angles, and had repeated hits per RR's instructions. I then jumped into to a new campaign from RSRDC that I converted into a single mission (Sink the Pearl Harbor invasion fleet) [see my recent post re RSRDC in the main SH4 thread], but I missed a fast moving destroyer (26.5 kts.) because I forgot to open the torpedo doors. It was moving to fast, I just did not have time once I calibrated its speed. I got three shots off anyway, and they missed by only 200 yds. per the Attack Map, so I was pretty happy. I got the door open for the fourth shot but I clicked the firing button incorrectly (I do not know what I did wrong) and the torpedo did not leave its chamber.

So far it is looking good.

[Deephunter]

You gotta give yourself time to set things up correctly and not be caught up in a "last second" rush where you'll probably forget something...Like opening torpedo doors...:oops:

[I'm goin' down]

give me a break. I have been doing this awhile. In RSRDC, I converted the Pearl Harbor Attack campaign into a single mission. Unfortunately, I intercepted the Jap task force at 0400 hours and the destroyer I shot at did not appear until it was very close to my boat. Traveling at 28.5 kts, it caught me short. I could not find it on my scope until it was really close. I just took some shots in another campagn from RSRDC that I converted into a single mission. I hit 5/6. I was 2 for 3 on the first light cruiser and 3 for 3 on the second. I fired at the first at 0 degrees. I fired at the second at 355 degrees. It was travelling from left to right, approaching from my port. I think I missed one shot on the first cruiser because it was traveling 18 kts. and I needed a slightly larger lead angle. I increased the lead angle by 5 degrees and hit the second cruiser with all three.

Does it matter what speed the torpedoes are set to run? I set them on high speed.

[Raven79]

With the Mk14, slow speed is what you want to get fewer duds.
If I understand that method correctly, you'll need a greater viewing angle (scope further away from 0 mark) to make them hit, as they'll need longer until they hit.

[sergei]

Does it matter what speed the torpedoes are set to run? I set them on high speed.

No it doesn't.
The TDC calculates the correct gyro angle for the torpedo speed you have chosen :yep:

[Rockin Robbins]

That's the beauty of the Dick O'Kane and John P Cromwell (TDC) methods: the TDC automatically knows the type and speed torpedo you selected and calculates the lead angle with no input from you! That eliminates many possibilities for error in the attack and saves mucho time.

There are two things I do first in an attack, where they apply. If I'm not doing a constant bearing attack I turn on the PK first. In any attack I open torpedo doors before entering anything at all in the TDC. If these two operations have priority over everything else you'll never forget them.

Of course in our constant bearing attacks there are two cursed buttons we never push: the PK button and the stadimeter button (booooo! hissssss!).:D

[I'm goin' down]

I do not have 'O'Kane under control at all.

This will be simple.

Battle of Guadalcanal
Multiple targets in a column (heavy cruisers!!!) at 17 kts. proceeding on a course of 150 degrees, approaching from my port side, so I will be attacking the targets' port starboard sides.
My boat is perpendicular to the targets' courses.
Set targets' speeds at 17 kts.
Aob set at 73 degrees starboard. (1) Should it be 90 degrees?
Set range at Max.
I aim the periscope at 340 degrees and double click it.
On the attack map the torpedo angle for the above settings crosses the 1000 yd. range mark at 25 degrees. I have not touched the torpedoes' settings.

Along comes a target closing in at 1,000 yds. range. I fire torpedoes all along its length at is crosses 340 degrees. Most of my shots miss behind the stern of the target.

(2) What is the correct firing point? (3) Is it 0 degrees? (4) 340 degrees? or (5) some other setting? I need information, so try to answer the 5 questions, and then explain if you feel a need to do so.

[Nisgeis]

Multiple targets in a column (heavy cruisers!!!) at 17 kts. proceeding on a course of 150 degrees, approaching from my port side, so I will be attacking the targets' port starboard sides.
My boat is perpendicular to the targets' courses.
Set targets' speeds at 17 kts.
Aob set at 73 degrees starboard. (1) Should it be 90 degrees?
Set range at Max.
I aim the periscope at 340 degrees and double click it.
On the attack map the torpedo angle for the above settings crosses the 1000 yd. range mark at 25 degrees. I have not touched the torpedoes' settings.

Along comes a target closing in at 1,000 yds. range. I fire torpedoes all along its length at is crosses 340 degrees. Most of my shots miss behind the stern of the target.

(2) What is the correct firing point? (3) Is it 0 degrees? (4) 340 degrees? or (5) some other setting? I need information, so try to answer the 5 questions, and then explain if you feel a need to do so.

I could only really pick out two questions. If you are perpendicular to the target's course and you enter a bearing of 340, then the AoB to enter is 70.

The correct firing point is whatever bearing your scope was pointed at when you double sent the range and bearing.

What bearing was your scope on when you fired? What was your aiming point and why were you using that. Imagine the TDC is a member of the crew that you are giving information to.

The TDC only knows what you tell it, so if you tell it 'Hey, I'm firing when the target is at a relative bearing of 340, when it will have an AoB of 70 degrees to starboard. By the way, it's going 17 knots."

OK, thinks the TDC, What I'll do is program the torpedoes to hit that target when it's at that point. OK good, now we can't miss!

Then.... you do something to screw it up. What was it? Did you shoot at a different bearing, did you change course, throwing the AoB off? If you put the right data in, but missed, you must have fired at the wrong point yes? But how did you fire at the wrong point, what was it you did? If you didn't do anything to cause a miss, then the data you put in was wrong.

If you missed astern, then it sounds like you underestimated the speed. An AoB of 73 S wasn't that far off, so speed was probably wrong. How did you calculate it?

EDIT: The TDC will give you a hit if you enter the correct data. If you don't hit, you either gave it incorrect data, or subsequently did something to cause that data to be incorrect.

[I'm goin' down]

I went back to Sub school. I missed a bunch of shots. Then I figured out the battleship or cruiser target was not on a 90 degree course. It is on an 80 degree course. So, I turned the boat 10 degrees starboard to get a 90 degree angle. And, the target speed is not 10 kts. It is 9-9.5 kts, which I also correct. I set Aob at 81 degrees starboard. I set up for a firing point of 340 degrees and double clicked range. 4 hits. The first shot was aimed at the first big gun, but it hit right at the bow. Should I expect the shots to run a little ahead or did I make an error measuring speed?

It think I finally may have figured this out. It was a SOB.

[green_abobo]

once you get the hang of it it will become routine,and you'll realize it isn't hard at all.

it's even easier to do in a uboat. once you sync the scope with the TDC, you can get hits from wherever you point the scope, (or not point it if you just aim from hydrophones) at any bearing,as long as the speed is accurate,and the AOB is close.

FYI (for your information) for stern shots,repeat the procedure except instead of zero (periscope bearing) you set up for 180 degrees,and reverse the AOB (port or starboard-because you're now firing opposite what you normally would) depending on which way the target is traveling.

this is especially handy when attacking inside a convoy,when you have ships in front of, and behind you.

saves time (and possibly your boat and crew messing around at periscope depth... risking detection from escorts) because you don't physically have to turn your boat to an angle where you can actually fire from your stern tubes, and get the ever annoying "cannot complete solution for aft tubes!" nonsense, with pinging destroyers bearing down on you.

[I'm goin' down]

visit the easy aob mod thread and you will see my name all over it. re aft shots, I was on top of it and aft shots before you joined.

Practice: I just sank a carrier at Lyete Gulf using O'Kane, but the shots appear to be running a little towards the stern as the target moved away. 4 hits, 1 dud, and I never saw the wake from the 5th one. It appeared to me it would have missed aft. I fired at 340 degrees and impact was around 0 degrees. After the carrier sunk my boat was sunk by a depth charge, and even though I tried to replay the game from the point when the carrier sank, the dds still sunk me.

[I'm goin' down]

Got it. Finally!!:know:

Now if I could only get the range mod built by Nisgeis working properly, I could take shore leave.

Oh. Thank each of you for your explanations. Somewhere in the mix, I had an epiphany, ran a test mission, and it came together.:woot:

[sergei]

Got it. Finally!!:know:

Glad to hear it.:DL
Good man :yeah:

[Rockin Robbins]

Yeeeee Hawwwww! I knew you would get it. Now you have Solution Solver, John P Cromwell and Dick O'Kane in your bag of tricks. All you have to do is size up your situation and choose which arrow to snag out of the quiver.:up:

[nappy]

im curious I'm goin' down, could you possible write a small tutorial/howto on the dick o'kane procedure as you see it ? id very much like to see it after this lengthy thread on this issue.
(i thought i had it pegged pretty much after an afternoon, but im beginning to suspect i may not.. seeing all the trouble you, an old timer here, had with it)

regards

nappy

[green_abobo]

visit the easy aob mod thread and you will see my name all over it. re aft shots, I was on top of it and aft shots before you joined.



cool beans. just throwin it out there. i wish i was psychic, then i would know were everyone was at beforehand,and save everyone the time and strain on the eyes.

glad things are workin out for you finally.

[Armistead]

cool beans. just throwin it out there. i wish i was psychic, then i would know were everyone was at beforehand,and save everyone the time and strain on the eyes.

glad things are workin out for you finally.


:har::har::har:

[I'm goin' down]

im curious I'm goin' down, could you possible write a small tutorial/howto on the dick o'kane procedure as you see it ? id very much like to see it after this lengthy thread on this issue.
(i thought i had it pegged pretty much after an afternoon, but im beginning to suspect i may not.. seeing all the trouble you, an old timer here, had with it)

regards

nappy

Read RR''s tutorial. That should do it. Practice on the target in the sub school torpedo tutorial.

That is much as I can provide; plus, he is the expert, as are others who use it regularly. Not I.

[Rockin Robbins]

Also, that's what the Bag of Tricks thread is about. If you need further assistance, I'm always here.

[Deephunter]

You'd be surprised at the versatility of the O'Kane method....
Last night I got boxed in by a pair od DD's. I set up for a stern shot on one (pretty straight forward...he was crossing my "stern T"), so he went down without much fuzz...
The other was a LOT harder...He kept circling me at about 500 yds, but as soon as I popped up to 'scope depth, he'd head straight for me, guns ablazin'....I shot several fish as he barreled in, but head-on bow shots never hit (I should know better....) So I'd make a bee-line for the thermocline and wait a bit....After several tries, I headed away from him and set up a shot (my last 2 fish..) to fire as he crossed in front of me. Up I go again...But he's picked up speed, so I have to keep re-setting the bearing...got to the point where I was able to get several degrees ahead of him, and let loose. I "run" to the attack map to see my torps....Turns out I had set the last bearing at about 240. Those fish did a nearly 120 deg. turn and came within a few feet of popping the DD. If I'd input a couple of more knots into the speed, he'd been a dead man....:damn: