Sweden abandons compulsory draft

[Skybird]

Silently and without the international public noticing it - eve n many Swedes seem to not know or not care - , Sweden has, after 109 years, abandoned it's compulsory draft system. Public debate does not seem to have taken place. They plan for a combat force size of 12-16 thousand only.

Comparing to Germany, where the debate is slow moving like dry grease and painful since 20 years, it somewhat stuns me a bit to see how smooth and silent it went in Sweden.

Opinions? And Swedes around?

[OneToughHerring]

Not a Swede but Finland is heading that way too. Due to geopolitical reasons it might take a little longer though. The Swedes have openly made statements like "We don't need a conscripted military since Finland will protect us against the only possible aggressor (Russia)".

[Dowly]

"We don't need a conscripted military since Finland will protect us against the only possible aggressor (Russia)".

Really? Must've missed that one then. :O:

But yeh, you are right, Sweden is between two shields so to speak with Norway on one side and Finland on other. :hmmm:

[Skybird]

But yeh, you are right, Sweden is between two shields so to speak with Norway on one side and Finland on other. :hmmm:
Or maybe it is that a Russian invasion simply is no realistic scenario to take into account.

Sweden always was no big army in size, theoretically, so I read, they wanted to call up up to 750,000 soldiers in case of ware, but that would have been possible only after several months of organisation, retraining and refreshing courses. However, technologically, during the cold war and afterwards, the Swedish forces always have been amongst the very best. Many of their systems and platforms are top notch and some things they have that even the Americans cry for not having them themselves.

[Dowly]

Or maybe it is that a Russian invasion simply is no realistic scenario to take into account.

Good point. :hmmm:

[Snestorm]

In some areas of naval technology Sweden is far ahead of both USA and Russia.

[Herr-Berbunch]

In some areas of naval technology Sweden is far ahead of both USA and Russia.

Does that mean the subs have airbags and side-impact protection? :DL

[Skybird]

Does that mean the subs have airbags and side-impact protection? :DL
Don't know, but it is fair to say they are leaders in naval surface stealth designs. At least from what I read some years ago. their Gotland submarines with air-independent, vibrationless Sterling engines are top class and are said to play easily in the same league like the German Type-212s/214s. It is practically impossible to detect them (a Gotland trained with the US Navy from 2005 until 2007, running circles at will around the Yanks, so it was reported, without being detected once).

I also remind of their famous Draaken, Viggen and Gripen fighters, all of which were amongst the very best designs at the time of deployment. I repeatedly read comments by historians and pilots saying that the true multi role modern fighterplane is a Swedish invention.

For tanks they bought German Leopards - with additonal features making the Swedish Leopards (STRV-122) one of the two most heavily protected versions of the Leo-2 in service (the other is the Spanish Leo-2E). They also use own-developed SABOT-rounds on that thing, that roughly equal the top notch German designs and US DU-designs (at ranges below 3000m).

Maybe they don't do stuff on many occasions, but when they do, it tends to be something extremely nice. After learning it in SBP, I did research on the CV-90xx series of IFVs, and found out that these are the preferred choice of many insiders and professionals, if they would have the choice.

You could have much worse equipement than Swedish one, I think. :yep:

[Safe-Keeper]

Norway's doing hand-picking, currently. 30-40 000 reach military age (18-19) each year and are called in for evaluation -- of these, 10 000 go on to recruit school. Signed up recently because I wanted a one-year break from studies:salute:, but didn't make the cut.

Military service is compulsory for men only, women are called in for evaluation, but told that it's up to them if, and how long, they want to serve. Here's hoping that changes soon.

Does that mean the subs have airbags and side-impact protection? :DLThey're also shipped piecemeal, and are notorious for being nearly impossible to assemble.

Seriously, though, for such a neutral country, Sweden is notoriously good at military technology and games alike. The Battlefield series was made by Swedes, as was World in Conflict.

[Gerald]

Or maybe it is that a Russian invasion simply is no realistic scenario to take into account.

Sweden always was no big army in size, theoretically, so I read, they wanted to call up up to 750,000 soldiers in case of ware, but that would have been possible only after several months of organisation, retraining and refreshing courses. However, technologically, during the cold war and afterwards, the Swedish forces always have been amongst the very best. Many of their systems and platforms are top notch and some things they have that even the Americans cry for not having them themselves.

About to be correct,so was this theoretically over 1.000.000 and not for several months,more like 3-4 weeks.Today we have other organisation and technologig for a force,for about approx 50.000.-70.000 and high tech in navy stuff and planes,,,but things can be change.....

:yep:

[Gerald]

Don't know, but it is fair to say they are leaders in naval surface stealth designs. At least from what I read some years ago. their Gotland submarines with air-independent, vibrationless Sterling engines are top class and are said to play easily in the same league like the German Type-212s/214s. It is practically impossible to detect them (a Gotland trained with the US Navy from 2005 until 2007, running circles at will around the Yanks, so it was reported, without being detected once).

I also remind of their famous Draaken, Viggen and Gripen fighters, all of which were amongst the very best designs at the time of deployment. I repeatedly read comments by historians and pilots saying that the true multi role modern fighterplane is a Swedish invention.

For tanks they bought German Leopards - with additonal features making the Swedish Leopards (STRV-122) one of the two most heavily protected versions of the Leo-2 in service (the other is the Spanish Leo-2E). They also use own-developed SABOT-rounds on that thing, that roughly equal the top notch German designs and US DU-designs (at ranges below 3000m).

Maybe they don't do stuff on many occasions, but when they do, it tends to be something extremely nice. After learning it in SBP, I did research on the CV-90xx series of IFVs, and found out that these are the preferred choice of many insiders and professionals, if they would have the choice.

You could have much worse equipement than Swedish one, I think. :yep:

True if the Goverment spend more money in defence,but you can`t hardly find more high tech in Jas39Gripen multi-roll or in sub for example,btw Leo-2 is now re-build.

[OneToughHerring]

Really? Must've missed that one then. :O:

But yeh, you are right, Sweden is between two shields so to speak with Norway on one side and Finland on other. :hmmm:

Well it's obvious and I remember reading a Swedish member of parliament making a statement to that effect.

Or maybe it is that a Russian invasion simply is no realistic scenario to take into account.

Blasphemy! :) Don't say that to any officer in Finland, they have been conditioned that the enemy will attack from the east, unless it's making a diversion by attacking from the flank. Really, the Russians will attack, it's only a matter of time. They have to, I was told that they will so it must be true. Finland has also invested so much to defend against such an attack that if no attack comes Finland will be ruined by the unnecessary expenses. ;)

The whole military service system is a very politicized and tender subject in Finland right now. The various brigades etc. where the military conscripts are trained are situated in these small locales that need the brigades for economic reasons. Therefore and for reasons such as holding on to old ways there is plenty of lobbying against any changes in the system.

[Gerald]

Does that mean the subs have airbags and side-impact protection? :DL No but they dev, this thing :yep:

[Snestorm]

Sweden / USA naval relations.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1UPG7XwhWw&feature=related

Sweden has some very hot equipment.

[Gerald]

Sweden / USA naval relations.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1UPG7XwhWw&feature=related

Sweden has some very hot equipment. but Sweden will never sell this sub or tech to Iran for example,the relations i very close....to U.S

[Snestorm]

but Sweden will never sell this sub or tech to Iran for example,the relations i very close....to U.S

Agreed.

[goldorak]

Silently and without the international public noticing it - eve n many Swedes seem to not know or not care - , Sweden has, after 109 years, abandoned it's compulsory draft system. Public debate does not seem to have taken place. They plan for a combat force size of 12-16 thousand only.

Comparing to Germany, where the debate is slow moving like dry grease and painful since 20 years, it somewhat stuns me a bit to see how smooth and silent it went in Sweden.

Opinions? And Swedes around?


Just one question, have the Swedes abolished compulsory draft or just suspended it indefinitely ?. I know that France during the early 90 discussed "abolishing" the draft because of the changing geopoltical landscape in europe, and in the end they decided only to suspend indefinitely the draft.
So technically you can still be recalled or drafted if a state of war is declared, but for all pratical purposes it has been "abolished".

[Gerald]

Just one question, have the Swedes abolished compulsory draft or just suspended it indefinitely ?. I know that France during the early 90 discussed "abolishing" the draft because of the changing geopoltical landscape in europe, and in the end they decided only to suspend indefinitely the draft.
So technically you can still be recalled or drafted if a state of war is declared, but for all pratical purposes it has been "abolished". But the devlop,take place in different option,however the implant are great for new gear!

[Skybird]

Just one question, have the Swedes abolished compulsory draft or just suspended it indefinitely ?.
Can't say for sure.the German news I read yesterday and the TV news as well said that they have abolished it. If they are aware of the difference you make, I do not know.

The impression so far is they indeed abolished it. the last group of some ceremonial guard regiment were conscripts were serving, was officially farewelled one or two days ago.

[Skybird]

True if the Goverment spend more money in defence,but you can`t hardly find more high tech in Jas39Gripen multi-roll or in sub for example,btw Leo-2 is now re-build.
Pardon - what do you mean?

[Gerald]

at they planed to upgrade some stuff...in tanks AA

[TLAM Strike]

but Sweden will never sell this sub or tech to Iran for example,the relations i very close....to U.S

Even if they did want to sell a sub I'm quite sure that would be against the current UN weapons embargo on Iran anyways.

They could only export blueprints and basic non-combat gear to Iran.

Doesn't matter anyways since the Russian Malachite design bureau seems to be sending all the data the Iranians need for building subs bigger than those North Korean knockoffs anyways.

[Jimbuna]

It looks like Sweden are going for a downsized professional and extremely well equipped armed force, similar to what we have in Britain (the professional bit anyway LOL), but on a much smaller scale.

[Gerald]

Even if they did want to sell a sub I'm quite sure that would be against the current UN weapons embargo on Iran anyways.

They could only export blueprints and basic non-combat gear to Iran.

Doesn't matter anyways since the Russian Malachite design bureau seems to be sending all the data the Iranians need for building subs bigger than those North Korean knockoffs anyways. to sell any vessels or other high tech,in this area,in any kind,way should we go aganst the UN Bargo? There are others....like U.S and many other in EU,.......yes!

[TLAM Strike]

to sell any vessels or other high tech,in this area,in any kind,way should we go aganst the UN Bargo? There are others....like U.S and many other in EU,.......yes!

Depends on what is being sold.

The embargo forbids sale of "Offensive" military equipment- anything that can be used to attack another country. Defensive military equipment is allowed. For example Sweden exported a series of General Purpose Tenders (AGs) to Iran for the Iranian Navy. Iran calls these the Hendijan class or MIG-S-4700-SC class when marketed for export.

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/8229/51633133.th.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/51633133.jpg/)
^Hendijan class AG

Also the infamous Boghammers were built in Sweden and exported as a non-combat craft (Customs Boats). Upon arrival in Iran they were armed and transferred to the IRGCN.

http://img25.imageshack.us/img25/3798/gray108a.th.jpg (http://img25.imageshack.us/i/gray108a.jpg/)
^Boghammer

Previous shipments of military goods allowed under the embargo or from countries ignoring the embargo (North Korea) were intercepted and their cargo's inspected by the US Navy. For example a shipment included a Taedong class submersible torpedo boat was stopped by the USN and inspected in great detail.

[Jimbuna]

Previous shipments of military goods allowed under the embargo or from countries ignoring the embargo (North Korea) were intercepted and their cargo's inspected by the US Navy. For example a shipment included a Taedong class submersible torpedo boat was stopped by the USN and inspected in great detail.

What happened?....did they let it through? :hmmm:

[Gerald]

What happened?....did they let it through? :hmmm:

But Im not sure,TLAM has more news,whats really happen....:cool:

[TLAM Strike]

What happened?....did they let it through? :hmmm:

The Taedong-B was allowed though as it was unarmed at the time, much like the other North Korean built SILCs. The Iranians armed it with 2 324mm torpedoes and placed it in service with the IRGCN as the Kajimi.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2194/irannavy.jpg

This is the only released photo of it. (It's the boat in the foreground not the 'P227')

[Jimbuna]

The Taedong-B was allowed though as it was unarmed at the time, much like the other North Korean built SILCs. The Iranians armed it with 2 324mm torpedoes and placed it in service with the IRGCN as the Kajimi.

http://img715.imageshack.us/img715/2194/irannavy.jpg

This is the only released photo of it. (It's the boat in the foreground not the 'P227')

Rgr that....cheers http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[OneToughHerring]

It's interesting how the Swedes usually play all peace-lovin' goody good except when it comes to the arms trade. I guess those Swedish peace-weapons need to be sold too.

[Biggles]

It looks like Sweden are going for a downsized professional and extremely well equipped armed force, similar to what we have in Britain (the professional bit anyway LOL), but on a much smaller scale.

Yup. My social studies teacher summed it up like this:

Any country that is strong enough to attack Sweden is strong enough to occupy us, and they will 99% of the tries. The Swedish military is not exactly designed to fight a defensive war they can't win, but rather stop the war before it comes here. Attacking Sweden will almost certainly result in heavy casualties for the attacker, which begs the question, is it really worth it? The potential enemy won't attack if knowing that they will lose more than they gain.

[Jimbuna]

Yup. My social studies teacher summed it up like this:

Any country that is strong enough to attack Sweden is strong enough to occupy us, and they will 99% of the tries. The Swedish military is not exactly designed to fight a defensive war they can't win, but rather stop the war before it comes here. Attacking Sweden will almost certainly result in heavy casualties for the attacker, which begs the question, is it really worth it? The potential enemy won't attack if knowing that they will lose more than they gain.

I hope that theory is never put to the test....I doubt it will anyway :up:

[OneToughHerring]

I hope that theory is never put to the test....I doubt it will anyway :up:

Sweden has the best Finnish military in the world.

[Gerald]

Sweden has the best Finnish military in the world. I'cant support this statment.

[OneToughHerring]

I'cant support this statment.

Oh really? Why are Finns forced to speak Swedish? Why do Swedes have their own tax paid universities and schools in Finland? Also look at the map, what is the buffer zone called between Sweden and Russia? That's right, Finland.

[TLAM Strike]

Also look at the map, what is the buffer zone called between Sweden and Russia? The Baltic Sea? :O:

It's interesting how the Swedes usually play all peace-lovin' goody good except when it comes to the arms trade. I guess those Swedish peace-weapons need to be sold too.

In honor of the holiday I would like to thank to the Swedes for those "Peace-Weapons"! They most certainly helped maintain our independence. :salute:
http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/574/boforsfiringusshornet.jpg (http://img408.imageshack.us/i/boforsfiringusshornet.jpg/)

Swedish designed 40mm Bofors AA guns on USS Hornet CV-12 during Task Force 58's February 1945 raid on Japan.


Yup. My social studies teacher summed it up like this:

Any country that is strong enough to attack Sweden is strong enough to occupy us, and they will 99% of the tries. The Swedish military is not exactly designed to fight a defensive war they can't win, but rather stop the war before it comes here. Attacking Sweden will almost certainly result in heavy casualties for the attacker, which begs the question, is it really worth it? The potential enemy won't attack if knowing that they will lose more than they gain.

I recall reading once that the only reason the Axis considered invading Sweden was the ore (In the even Sweden stopped selling to Germany). They realized that mining crews are just as good as combat engineers at their job and would simply destroy every mine in the country were German to invade making the invasion moot.

[OneToughHerring]

Swedish designed 40mm Bofors AA guns on USS Hornet CV-12 during Task Force 58's February 1945 raid on Japan.

They also sold weapons to places such as apartheid - era South Africa.

I see you skipped the language - issue.

[TLAM Strike]

They also sold weapons to places such as apartheid - era South Africa.

I see you skipped the language - issue.

34th Rule of Acquisition. :yep:

If they weren't going to get their A-Bomb parts from Sweden they were going to get them Israel (They did both). If not from them then from Taiwan/India/Nkor/etc........

During that time SA was the worlds 10th largest arms manufacture. Notice you didn't mention THAT!

[Gerald]

It's interesting how the Swedes usually play all peace-lovin' goody good except when it comes to the arms trade. I guess those Swedish peace-weapons need to be sold too. I'ts better to trade Armament Technology to country in safe reason.You playing with peace-loving term,woh wan't war,not Sweden anyway!

[OneToughHerring]

34th Rule of Acquisition. :yep:

If they weren't going to get their A-Bomb parts from Sweden they were going to get them Israel (They did both). If not from them then from Taiwan/India/Nkor/etc........

During that time SA was the worlds 10th largest arms manufacture. Notice you didn't mention THAT!

They also sold weapons to Israel, Iran and lots of other nations

Btw doesn't surprise me that you wouldn't have a problem with them selling weapons to apartheid era South Africa.

Still ducking the language question. I know it's difficult for you Americans to fathom that the nice, cute Swedes have been forcing Finns to speak their useless language for decades.

[Biggles]

I recall reading once that the only reason the Axis considered invading Sweden was the ore (In the even Sweden stopped selling to Germany). They realized that mining crews are just as good as combat engineers at their job and would simply destroy every mine in the country were German to invade making the invasion moot.

Exactly. If they'd invaded us, we'd blown up the ore mines, and any other thing they might find handy, so they would just lose men, material and time capturing a country that won't give anything in return.

[Jimbuna]

Hey guys, why do you keep feeding the troll.....not many people do these days.

I'm sure he'll find a contradiction in that somewhere :nope:

[TLAM Strike]

They also sold weapons to Israel, Iran and lots of other nations

Btw doesn't surprise me that you wouldn't have a problem with them selling weapons to apartheid era South Africa. Depends on whats being sold. When the ranges become intercontinental I start to care.

Still ducking the language question. I know it's difficult for you Americans to fathom that the nice, cute Swedes have been forcing Finns to speak their useless language for decades. Didn't know, don't care. Don't want to speak Swedish any more have your state/province/city school boards vote to remove it from the curriculum.

[OneToughHerring]

Depends on whats being sold. When the ranges become intercontinental I start to care.

You don't care about civilians being killed etc. with small arms? It's actually pretty rare to use ICBM's etc. so they could actually said to be 'safer' that way.

The language issue is a nation wide issue. Either everybody speaks it or nobody, no way of individual schools to break from the norm.

[TLAM Strike]

You don't care about civilians being killed etc. with small arms? It's actually pretty rare to use ICBM's etc. so they could actually said to be 'safer' that way. Troops with small arms can be defended against by civilians with some smarts. Explosives can be made out of fertilizers, chemical weapons out of cleaning products or pesticides, people in prisons have manufactured firearms.

If the locals can't to figure out how to make a weapons drop these leaflets on them. The US dropped pamphlets like these on Nicaragua. (http://www.ballistichelmet.org/school/free.html)

The language issue is a state wide issue. Either everybody speaks it or nobody, no way of individual schools to break from the norm. Why does everyone or no one need to speak it? Spanish and French were taught in the school I went to. It was mandatory to take one of those classes or a class that features a language other than English credit (I took a computer programing course which taught BASIC for my language credit)

When I said School board I meant whatever regional school administration you have. For example where I live we have the NY State Board of Education that set the minimum standards to graduate. Its standards are different from the Texas School Board.

[OneToughHerring]

Troops with small arms can be defended against by civilians with some smarts. Explosives can be made out of fertilizers, chemical weapons out of cleaning products or pesticides, people in prisons have manufactured firearms.

If the locals can't to figure out how to make a weapons drop these leaflets on them. The US dropped pamphlets like these on Nicaragua. (http://www.ballistichelmet.org/school/free.html)


Interesting leaflet.

Why does everyone or no one need to speak it? Spanish and French were taught in the school I went to. It was mandatory to take one of those classes or a class that features a language other than English credit (I took a computer programing course which taught BASIC for my language credit)

When I said School board I meant whatever regional school administration you have. For example where I live we have the NY State Board of Education that set the minimum standards to graduate. Its standards are different from the Texas School Board.You have a different system. It's all ancient politics here, Finland could make a lot of money from wealthy Russian tourists and do more business with Russia if we knew more Russian instead of Swedish. Or even if those Finns who live by the very long Russian border could freely choose whether to study Swedish or Russian in school. Or even to choose German or French as the second or third languages in school, pretty much everyone take English anyway.

I've never said Finland is a perfect country, we have a lot of things we should do better.

[TLAM Strike]

You have a different system. It's all ancient politics here, Finland could make a lot of money from wealthy Russian tourists and do more business with Russia if we knew more Russian instead of Swedish. Or even if those Finns who live by the very long Russian border could freely choose whether to study Swedish or Russian in school. Or even to choose German or French as the second or third languages in school, pretty much everyone take English anyway.

I've never said Finland is a perfect country, we have a lot of things we should do better.

If you don't like it vote! Finland is a democracy IIRC. ;)

Put people in office who will make the change you want. :up:


... and if all else fails see leaflet.... :arrgh!:

[OneToughHerring]

If you don't like it vote! Finland is a democracy IIRC. ;)

Put people in office who will make the change you want. :up:


... and if all else fails see leaflet.... :arrgh!:

Haha, yes. Unfortuantely even in the most positive and peacefull case it will take a lot of political wrangling over a long period for Finland to fix these issues.

You're alright TLAM Strike. :up:

[ReFaN]

Does that mean the subs have airbags and side-impact protection? :DL

Sure do! even got a Fast Food resturant chain called Gotlandia, wich makes the best hamburgers around!

[Snestorm]

Oh really? Why are Finns forced to speak Swedish?

You're free to show off your swedish language skills here.
That is, IF you have, in fact, been FORCED to speak swedish.

Wasn't it you who called our "scani languages" impossable to understand?

[OneToughHerring]

You're free to show off your swedish language skills here.
That is, IF you have, in fact, been FORCED to speak swedish.

Wasn't it you who called our "scani languages" impossable to understand?

Well I don't speak Danish which sounds like speaking with a hot potato in your mouth.

Min svensk är ganska dåligt men jag fick "bra" från min svensk examen i universitet. Jag lärde mig att tala svenskt genom att titta på svenska television, vi hade två svenska kanaler på tv:n. I min åsikt svenska brudar är snygga och svenska öl är billigare än finska öl, och svenska godisar är billigare också.

Jag tycker inte om svenska ishockey landslaget för de nästan alltid vinner mot oss. Jag tycker om krigs historiet och u-botar och att motionera. I framtiden vill jag resa runtomkring världen. Slut. :)

[Snestorm]

Well I don't speak Danish which sounds like speaking with a hot potato in your mouth.

Min svensk är ganska dåligt men jag fick "bra" från min svensk examen i universitet. Jag lärde mig att tala svenskt genom att titta på svenska television, vi hade två svenska kanaler på tv:n. I min åsikt svenska brudar är snygga och svenska öl är billigare än finska öl, och svenska godisar är billigare också.

Jag tycker inte om svenska ishockey landslaget för de nästan alltid vinner mot oss. Jag tycker om krigs historiet och u-botar och att motionera. I framtiden vill jag resa runtomkring världen. Slut. :)

I am surprised by your abilities, and shall say nothing more in your opposition on this particular topic.

[Gerald]

Well I don't speak Danish which sounds like speaking with a hot potato in your mouth.

Min svensk är ganska dåligt men jag fick "bra" från min svensk examen i universitet. Jag lärde mig att tala svenskt genom att titta på svenska television, vi hade två svenska kanaler på tv:n. I min åsikt svenska brudar är snygga och svenska öl är billigare än finska öl, och svenska godisar är billigare också.

Jag tycker inte om svenska ishockey landslaget för de nästan alltid vinner mot oss. Jag tycker om krigs historiet och u-botar och att motionera. I framtiden vill jag resa runtomkring världen. Slut. :) Om du tycker om historia,bör du beakta det i dina säkerhets relaterade artiklar!