Homeopathy

[Skybird]

Do you believe in it (or variations of it) as an effective cure, or not?

Myself, I cut it short, I think it is quackery.

I see a chance of it being effective in the meaning of a placebo being effective. I also can imagine that this placebo effect can be transported via a mediating person (a mother orders homeopathic treatement for her child, and the child responds to her expecation and behavior by showing a placebo effect). However, I cannot ignore that I was unable to find hints for any serious study prooving the effectiveness of the method, but that many studies that were claimed to deliver evidence in the past years, have been withdrawn by their authors, or have been called back by publishers, or that the homeopathy fan group itself even admitted were extremely faulty. I also cannot ignore the many inherent inconsistencies of the theory, and the almost superstitious thinking behind the "Gleichheitsprinzip" (similiarity principle?), which reminds of the wearing of flower amulettes in the medieval. I knew people long time ago, who treated the "depressed mood" of their cat with Bachblüten, and swore that the cat became better and behaved differently. I knew those people quite well for some years, and their cat as well, and I did not see any change at all, i also did not see any depressed basic mood in that cat. I think the people just saw what they wanted to imagine into it.

In that a patient maybe denies regular medical treatement over attempts of trying homeopathy first, I even see risks involved.

The idea of information being written into water and carried by water molecules when the agents get deluded to ratios that finally not even one molecule would be left in all of earth's oceans, I cannot believe at all. I find Sheldrake's morphogenetic fields theory very interesting and fascinating (not proven wrong but also not proven right, however), but when comparing to homeopathy's basic assumptions, Sheldrake has presented a model and theory with hierarchic argument that compares to homeopathy like a Ferrari compares to an oxcart.

What do you think?

[Sailor Steve]

Don't know. I'm always ready to dismiss things, but my dad thinks it helped with his Parkinson's. Did it? If it did, was it the placebo effect?

I don't know.

[tater]

Quackery.

Homeopathy is to Medicine

as

Astrology is to Astronomy.

[Platapus]

First of all, in order for this poll to be useful, one should define what homeopathy means and does not mean. There is a big difference between homeopathy and herbal medicine, but some confuse the terms.

[tater]

I'm referring to the "medicine" practiced by "homepaths."

It's quackery.

[antikristuseke]

Its to medicine as bat**** is to sanity

[gimpy117]

I Had to take a Holistic health class first Semester At Western Michigan University. It was all commons sense and pseudo-scientific crap. Homeopathy is a joke. Some of these medicines can do actual harm, and not getting treatment in hopes that the "alternative medicine" will work is even more dangerous. Sure yoga,acupuncture, a good diet, and massage can help the ill recover faster, or improve quality of life during treatment...but taking fish oil to cure an actual disease...total bunk

[Skybird]

First of all, in order for this poll to be useful, one should define what homeopathy means and does not mean. There is a big difference between homeopathy and herbal medicine, but some confuse the terms.
:06: Homeopathy is not herbal medicine, not by name, and not by practice. I also never met anybody confusing the two. Even those who maybe did not know what homeopathy is, did not assume it was herbal medicine.

there are local variations of homeopathy, though, but all depend on the same set of basic assumptions, though they are called ifferent: Bachblüten in Germany, Caliornian Essences in America, and so on. That's why I mentioned "and variations".

Herbal essence uses cures that have actual chemically/physiologically more or less effective ingredients, while homeopathy from relatively early dilution-ratios on has none. It's two totally different things.

For a quick shot at what homeopathy is: German or English Wikipedia do a sufficient job on it.

[Skybird]

I Had to take a Holistic health class first Semester At Western Michigan University. It was all commons sense and pseudo-scientific crap. Homeopathy is a joke. Some of these medicines can do actual harm,
How'S that if there is almost no moleculae left in the "medicine" - it cannot work for bad or worse if it has no active agent!?

and not getting treatment in hopes that the "alternative medicine" will work is even more dangerous.Yes indeed, that is the greatest risk I see as well.

Sure yoga,acupuncture, a good diet, and massage can help the ill recover faster, or improve quality of life during treatment...but taking fish oil to cure an actual disease...total bunk
Well, all that is no homeopathy, let's do not mix it all together. And codliver oil has high ammounts of vitamine A and D, omega-3-fatty acids, and thus could be of benefit for persons in need of these.

[Schroeder]

Actually I've never taken anything homoeopathic. But I know some people who did and they had great relief from it. It even works on animals as far as I know which would rule out the placebo effect as animals don't believe in our medicine.
I actually think that if it does help people in one way or another it has a right to exist.
Just my 0.02$.

[NeonSamurai]

Proving something works on animals can be difficult at best unless we are talking about a readily quantifiable illness. It also is theoretically possible to enduce the placebo effect on the animal if it has been given medication before with positive effects in a similar way as to the placebo.

[Skybird]

Actually I've never taken anything homoeopathic. But I know some people who did and they had great relief from it. It even works on animals as far as I know which would rule out the placebo effect as animals don't believe in our medicine.
I actually think that if it does help people in one way or another it has a right to exist.
Just my 0.02$.
the problem with animals is that they cannot tell you they feel inner, mental relief - it's very much in the eye of the beholder that they "feel" better, and those cat owners I knew back then definitely interpreted things into it. The cat did not chnage at all. At that time,I visisted them several times per week, we were close friends from university. The cat I never saw as "depressed", it was always kind and friendly. The point is that the couple itself was in stress in the beginning, and then settled down and relief came over them - and that was when they started to perceive that change for the better in their cat! But the cat did not change although being treated with Bachblüten over "depression". The couple itself had changed, and so did it's perceptions. Possible that this change also fed back on the cat, but I did not perceive that. After all, it was a cat - kind, but lazy as hell. :)

and it still is possible that there is an indirect placebo effect in place, too. We have had dogs ourselves, when I lived at my parents. They used to boost their temper or became more alive" when one of us felt ill, and then became better, or something that worried us fell off our shoulders. the dogs perceived that improvement in us, and responded to it with relief by themselves. After all, a dog is in trouble when the big huge Alphadog is angry or ill and cannot lead the pack in the regular boss manner. :D

Children also can change their behavior in response to the expectations of their parents: mother thinks the cure is effective, child subconsciously perceives a change in her mother's behavior - and alters own behavior in reply. Animals do that for sure, too, especially dogs, cats, probably also horses - all those animals that live close together with humans since long and maybe even have a genetically founded ability now to interprete and understand basics of human gestures, mimics, and behavior/body language. For dogs, this is now strongly assumed to be the case. and it is not even a great surprise if you consider the principles of genetic evolution.

[Geno_Mariner]

I don't think it's quackery. But each to their own.
It seems to be pretty good. I keep an open mind to anything, especially when I'm a horse owner. Works well to be open minded to any thing even if it may seem to be a bit far fetched. You can choose to either dismiss it as a whole or take out what you think works the best and dismiss the rest. I've always been doing that, works out well.

Again, each to their own. Everyone's entitled to opinions and as Schroeder said, it's got a right to exist if it works for some. Not everyone's forced to use it :cool:

[Schroeder]

@Skybird

I wasn't talking about mental treatment of animals.;)

One example for humans:
A friend of my mother has had problems with a tooth. There was a painful swelling in the upper jaw. After some days she took some homoeopathic pill and the swelling was gone within hours.
Even if this should have been only a placebo effect it definitely did cure the problem.

[tater]

Opinions don't matter. If it is not quackery, then it could prove it works in proper, controlled studies—more than the placebo effect. It does not.

[Skybird]

Opinions don't matter. If it is not quackery, then it could prove it works in proper, controlled studies—more than the placebo effect. It does not.
Indeed. Even trying to raise empirical data of validity for acupuncture and meditation has now been more successful - and they struggled for decades to explore both in methodologically okay settings.

However. I asked because I wanted to get a quick impression of how widespread trust in the method is in this non-representative sample of GT members. Pure curiosity. Maybe I ask again in some days about opinions on tarot or enneagrams :DL

So, if somebody has a benefit from falling victim :) to a placebo effect that lasts, fine, if the relief is for real and is not short-term only, it does not matter whether it is an agent or a placebo. I just deny that there is any other, causal factor involved that would make homeopathy an effect beside that of a placebo, or mere belief.

[Bilge_Rat]

homeopathy: modern equivalent of witch doctors, about as effective as praying.

[tater]

However. I asked because I wanted to get a quick impression of how widespread trust in the method is in this non-representative sample of GT members. Pure curiosity. Maybe I ask again in some days about opinions on tarot or enneagrams :DL


In answer to that question, I would say in the real world, trust is ridiculously broad. "Teach the controversy!" LOL. Look at the people who believe—contrary to ALL scientific studies—that vaccines cause autism. It's not surprising to learn that the leading "medical" proponents of that entirely discredited hypothesis are in fact... homeopaths.

To see another place where such quackery has broad support, many US insurance plans now pay for chiropractors. Same thing, different name. "Chiropractic" claims to be able to cure all kinds of illness through manipulation. Bat-**** crazy.

[nikimcbee]

I knew an old lady in Minnesota that was REALLY into homeopathic stuff. She had cancer and was treating it with "homeopathic medicine". The cancer totally overran her system and she died.:dead: I think a lot of it may be in your head (like taking a plasebo).:dead:

[nikimcbee]

I just laugh at the "homeopathic" cure for diabetes.:har:
dum,dum,dum,dum dum

[FIREWALL]

It all depends. Some home remidies are good for a skin rash.

But, if I have oozing, burning pustules, I'm gonna run to the Dr. fast and get some real treatment. :yep:

[TarJak]

If it looks like a duck, moves like a duck and quacks like a duck then it is probably a duck. Quackery no doubt in my mind.

[Schroeder]

May I ask how many of the quackery guys here have already taken homoeopathic medicine? As I said I never took anything of that stuff myself but I know some people who had great experiences with it (and it wasn't about mental stuff).

[NeonSamurai]

Opinions don't matter. If it is not quackery, then it could prove it works in proper, controlled studies—more than the placebo effect. It does not.

The irony though is there are a pile of drugs from pharmaceutical companies that really do not show much effect beyond the placebo effect. That and of course how they tamper with the study to get desirable results.

[Skybird]

May I ask how many of the quackery guys here have already taken homoeopathic medicine?
Me, long time ago, when I was at university and had many freinds who experiemnted with many different things, amongst them that couple with that cat I mentioned.

Needless to say, I felt no effect.

But to answer in a different way as well: may I give a free quote by Mr. Spock from one novel I read back in those years:

"When I am standing on a huge object that has mass and is rotating around a centre axis, then I know that there is gravitation, and then I must not see the apple I let slip from my hand falling to the ground, but I already know that the apple will fall to the ground."

[Herr-Berbunch]

My thoughts on this subject, for what they are worth, are that there can be no doubt that some homeopathic remedies work for some people, even if it is a placebo effect if you feel better that is surely the point.

This comment in no way stops me from taking the x:ox out of my wife when she tries something wacky in some macho-bravado stance (just don't tell her that!)

[STEED]

Never believed it, never will.

Any one for herbal tea?

[Safe-Keeper]

Nice podcast on homeopathy here (http://skeptoid.com/mobile/4034).
After watching that one, you will be able to truly appreciate this one (http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4113), in which he really drives the point home:D.

The whole prospect of the "all-natural", "evil Big Pharma" fad scares me. It's just not how gullible people shell away money on stuff that either doesn't work, doesn't work as well as conventional medicine, or has adverse side-effects they don't tell you about -- it's the sheer lack of logic used to support all this that gets to me. For example, how people are so busy slinging mud at conventional medical practice that they forget that alternative remedies have side-effects just as conventional remedies. Or how disturbingly effective anecdotes are, when in reality they're utterly worthless to prove anything. What frightens me is how apparent it is that so many lack the required critical thinking skills to cope with the avalanches of conflicting information we are buried under in today's Information Age.

My favourite is the people who are terrified of vaccines because they contain microscopic amounts of some kind of mercury (far less than in, say, sea food), and say they would rather take natural remedies.
Um... guys? Mercury (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercury_%28element%29) is natural:damn:. It's a chemical element. How much more natural can something get? Oh, and the Chinese had great faith in it as medicine 3000 years ago. Oh, and Big Pharma says it's dangerous. I thought that was all the alternative crowd needed; All Natural, Chinese Wisdom, and shunning from evil Big Pharma:D?

May I ask how many of the quackery guys here have already taken homoeopathic medicine?Doesn't matter, as we're not discussing some brand of ice cream, coffee, or submarine combat simulator. Whether homeopathy works is a scientific question that can be, and has been empirically tested. If tests reveal -- and they have -- that it doesn't work as good as, or any better than, a placebo, then it doesn't change anything if I try it -- if it doesn't work, it doesn't work.

One example for humans:
A friend of my mother has had problems with a tooth. There was a painful swelling in the upper jaw. After some days she took some homoeopathic pill and the swelling was gone within hours.
Even if this should have been only a placebo effect it definitely did cure the problem. Sorry to be an ***, but how do you know that? Swellings have a tendency to go away by themselves, often within a couple of days.

[Fish]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYFwT1LcBdI&feature=fvst

Homeopathy is nothing more than amusing bunk!

[Safe-Keeper]

James Rand is a god.

[Skybird]

Never believed it, never will.

Any one for herbal tea?
Depends on the health issue. In some cases, herbal essence may just turn out to be working chemical agents. there is no mystery about it - it's is a chemical-physiological effect that helps, or not.

At least as long as you do mean herbs for sure - and not insist on tea leaves being plucked at full moon in the 19th night of the 7th month of the year, and then stored for 12 days and nights in purified water held in a silver bowl and buried in sacred earth under a layer of rose quartz! :D

[Skybird]

After watching that one, you will be able to truly appreciate this one (http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4113), in which he really drives the point home:D.


ROTFLMAO! :har:

Best return possible!

[AngusJS]

It's just water.

The standard dilution for the homeopathic "treatment" for flu is 200C, i.e. a dilution of the "active" ingredient to one part per hundred, repeated 200 times. To quote the book Voodoo Science:

That would result in a dilution of one molecule of the extract to every 10^400 molecules of water...But there are only 10^80 atoms in the entire universe. A dilution of 200C would go far, far beyond the dilution limit of the entire visible universe!A homeopathic experiment using a common substance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1B2aFElfjE

And what if homeopathy was used in emergency rooms?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HMGIbOGu8q0

[Skybird]

It's just water.

The standard dilution for the homeopathic "treatment" for flu is 200C, i.e. a dilution of the "active" ingredient to one part per hundred, repeated 200 times.
Wrong. They have two scales to describe the delution level in homeopathy, the X- (or D-) and the C-scale (from the Roman number system, I think). 200C (=400X) means a dillution of 1 : 10E400 (an exponent with 400 zeroes, yes).

the number of particles in all universe is estimated to be 10E78

Edit: I just realised you were describing the process of potentisation (=Potenzierung), so I somewhat misread your post. However, your statement that 200C means "a dilution of the "active" ingredient to one part per hundred", nevertheless is wrong. the number does not mean a final dilution relation of 1:200, but means that that the process of potentisation" is repeated 400 times (400D=200C), with each potentisation step meaning a further dilution of 1:10. "2C" for example equals "4D/4X" and thus means a dilution of 1 : 10E4=10000, not 1:2.

[AngusJS]

Wrong. They have two scales to describe the delution level in homeopathy, the X- (or D-) and the C-scale (from the Roman number system, I think). 200C (=400X) means a dillution of 1 : 10E400 (an exponent with 400 zeroes, yes).

the number of particles in all universe is estimated to be 10E78

Edit: I just realised you were describing the process of potentisation (=Potenzierung), so I somewhat misread your post. However, your statement that 200C means "a dilution of the "active" ingredient to one part per hundred", nevertheless is wrong. the number does not mean a final dilution relation of 1:200, but means that that the process of potentisation" is repeated 400 times (400D=200C), with each potentisation step meaning a further dilution of 1:10. "2C" for example equals "4D/4X" and thus means a dilution of 1 : 10E4=10000, not 1:2.I mean (for example) 1 ml of extract is put in 99 ml of water and shaken. Then one ml of that is put in another 99 ml of water, a step that is repeated 199 times.

[conus00]

Quackery.

Homeopathy is to Medicine

as

Astrology is to Astronomy.

Well put.

[Blacklight]

There's only ONE homeopathic thing that I tried that actually worked. I have horrible 24/7, year round, nasal allergies that REALLY affect my quality of life. I'm taking every perscription drug that I can possibly take for it and I've also done allergy shots and nothing has worked so far except to stave off the symptoms just a little bit. I decided that I had nothing to lose by trying something homeopathic because it was the only thing I havn't tried yet.
With homeopathic stuff, I am a huge skeptic but I decided to give it a shot anyway. I tried several things, all with absolutely NO result. Then I found this stuff called "Nasalcrom" and it's amazing the difference that it makes. Unlike most homeopathic stuff where you have to keep taking it for a month or more for it to take effect according to the manufactuers, it works immediately. It doesn't totally kill the allergies, but it REALLY made a difference in my ability to actually breath through my nose.
The only drawback is that it last for three hours and then you have to dose again and you can take it up to 6 times a day. Even so, a single bottle of it lasts me a month. It's the only homeopathic drug that I actually would reccomend.

The other catch with it is that it works fantastic with nasal allergies, but does nothing if you have a sinus infection. This stuff actually does work and I reccomend it to anyone with nasal allergies.

[tater]

There's only ONE homeopathic thing that I tried that actually worked. I have horrible 24/7, year round, nasal allergies that REALLY affect my quality of life. I'm taking every perscription drug that I can possibly take for it and I've also done allergy shots and nothing has worked so far except to stave off the symptoms just a little bit. I decided that I had nothing to lose by trying something homeopathic because it was the only thing I havn't tried yet.
With homeopathic stuff, I am a huge skeptic but I decided to give it a shot anyway. I tried several things, all with absolutely NO result. Then I found this stuff called "Nasalcrom" and it's amazing the difference that it makes. Unlike most homeopathic stuff where you have to keep taking it for a month or more for it to take effect according to the manufactuers, it works immediately. It doesn't totally kill the allergies, but it REALLY made a difference in my ability to actually breath through my nose.
The only drawback is that it last for three hours and then you have to dose again and you can take it up to 6 times a day. Even so, a single bottle of it lasts me a month. It's the only homeopathic drug that I actually would reccomend.

The other catch with it is that it works fantastic with nasal allergies, but does nothing if you have a sinus infection. This stuff actually does work and I reccomend it to anyone with nasal allergies.

Is cromoglicic acid really "homeopathic?"

Since the active ingredient is NOT diluted to non-existence (the definition of a homeopathic "remedy"), I don't think it counts. Nasalcrom is: Cromolyn sodium 5.2 mg per spray. That's not diluted the silly homeopath way.

[Blacklight]

Is cromoglicic acid really "homeopathic?"

Since the active ingredient is NOT diluted to non-existence (the definition of a homeopathic "remedy"), I don't think it counts. Nasalcrom is: Cromolyn sodium 5.2 mg per spray. That's not diluted the silly homeopath way.

It CLAIMS to be homeopathic. Whatever it is, it really works well.

[Skybird]

http://www.rxlist.com/nasalcrom-drug.htm

http://nasalcrom.com/product.php


DRUG DESCRIPTION
Chemically, cromolyn sodium is the disodium salt of 1,3-bis (2-carboxychromon-5-yloxy)-2-hydroxypropane. The empirical (http://www.subsim.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=11320) formula is C23H14Na2O11; the molecular weight is 512.34.

Active ingredient (per pray): Cromolyn sodium 5.2 mg


Does not look and does not sound like homeopathic at all. 5.2 mg of something per spray bottle? No, not homeopathic, really.

[Takeda Shingen]

Of course homeopathic 'medicine' is bunk. What irritates me is that it takes away from real science, like alchemy.

[gimpy117]

There's only ONE homeopathic thing that I tried that actually worked. I have horrible 24/7, year round, nasal allergies that REALLY affect my quality of life. I'm taking every perscription drug that I can possibly take for it and I've also done allergy shots and nothing has worked so far except to stave off the symptoms just a little bit. I decided that I had nothing to lose by trying something homeopathic because it was the only thing I havn't tried yet.
With homeopathic stuff, I am a huge skeptic but I decided to give it a shot anyway. I tried several things, all with absolutely NO result. Then I found this stuff called "Nasalcrom" and it's amazing the difference that it makes. Unlike most homeopathic stuff where you have to keep taking it for a month or more for it to take effect according to the manufactuers, it works immediately. It doesn't totally kill the allergies, but it REALLY made a difference in my ability to actually breath through my nose.
The only drawback is that it last for three hours and then you have to dose again and you can take it up to 6 times a day. Even so, a single bottle of it lasts me a month. It's the only homeopathic drug that I actually would reccomend.

The other catch with it is that it works fantastic with nasal allergies, but does nothing if you have a sinus infection. This stuff actually does work and I reccomend it to anyone with nasal allergies.

I don't really think its all that homeopathic. HCL (hydrochloric acid) is often used as an active ingredient for other nasal sprays, so another acid is a believable alternative. My theory is that they never got it FDA approved so they say it's "homeopathic"

[Platapus]

Of course homeopathic 'medicine' is bunk. What irritates me is that it takes away from real science, like alchemy.

What exactly is it taking away from "real" science?

Scientists work in their labs; Homeopathic technicians work in their labs.

What is being taken away?

And the important question is: Why do we have three pages of everyone agreeing? LoL

[Takeda Shingen]

What exactly is it taking away from "real" science?

Scientists work in their labs; Homeopathic technicians work in their labs.

What is being taken away?

And the important question is: Why do we have three pages of everyone agreeing? LoL

Your sarcasm receptors may need recalibrating. Alchemy is not science.

[Platapus]

Your sarcasm receptors may need recalibrating. Alchemy is not science.

That's a fair cop. I plead guilty. :D

[Eightbit]

I personally LOVE homeopathy. I drink from my tap everyday ensuring 100% perfect health-I will never age, get sick or die. With the wonderful discovery of water-memory and nano-bubbles with strings I can rest safely knowing where my water comes from and has been.

It's also cheap.

[clive bradbury]

Homeopathy is quackery. Proven chemically, mathematically, and empirically through extensive double-blind testing. Although it is simply water - it can be dangerous. In the UK homeopathy was (perhaps still is) available via the NHS. This funding could have been used for proper treatment of patients in an already under-funded organisation.

Fortunately, the host of evidence has forced a re-think - the use of homeopathic 'remedies' in the UK has fallen dramatically over the last few years, and funding it in the NHS has almost disappeared.

[Safe-Keeper]

Fortunately, the host of evidence has forced a re-think - the use of homeopathic 'remedies' in the UK has fallen dramatically over the last few years, and funding it in the NHS has almost disappeared.A recent hearing in the UK basically established that homeopathy is hogwash, and that funding from the NHS is meaningless.

What exactly is it taking away from "real" science?

Scientists work in their labs; Homeopathic technicians work in their labs.A ridiculous equivocation. Scientists work using the scientific method, homeopaths are a bunch of quacks who peddle snake oil that has been shown not to work.