Convoy battle in the Gulf of Aden

[TLAM Strike]

http://english.sina.com/china/p/2010/0227/306019.html

http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9206/u137p200t1d306019f8dt20.jpg

http://img704.imageshack.us/img704/4458/u137p200t1d306019f10dt2.jpg

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/4452/u137p200t1d306019f12dt2.jpg

http://img687.imageshack.us/img687/4941/u137p200t1d306019f14dt2.jpg

Looks like a group of about 20 or so Merchant ships came under attack by a bunch of Pirate skiffs. The article says 50 approached the convoy.

ID has a great dissection of the photos:
http://www.informationdissemination.net/2010/06/swarm-tactics.html


Ok me and Xabbarus are building our own North Korean style midget submarine and we are going to go and join the pirates! Who is with us? :arrgh!:

[krashkart]

I volunteer as First Torpedo. :salute:

[Oberon]

I'll bring a Churchill class SSN...there's bound to be one laid up somewhere...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/162/372423818_2f2844827f.jpg

:arrgh!:

[Jimbuna]

I wonder how big the Chinese naval fleet was?

must have been more than 2 or three ships to deal with that number of pirate vessels :hmmm:

[nikimcbee]

....waiting for HMS Compass Rose to sail over the horizon.:ahoy:

[nikimcbee]

These guys need some apache aircover!

[TLAM Strike]

I wonder how big the Chinese naval fleet was?

must have been more than 2 or three ships to deal with that number of pirate vessels :hmmm: The PLAN's deployments to the Gulf of Aden are normally a pair of Missile Destroyers and Tanker.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3221/2009plansomaliadeploy02.th.jpg (http://img337.imageshack.us/i/2009plansomaliadeploy02.jpg/)
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7716/2009planrep887.th.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/i/2009planrep887.jpg/)



This are photos of one of their recent deployments. IIRC this was a joint patrol with a Russian Udaloy class DDG late last year.

These guys need some apache aircover! Recently the PRC has displayed a Z-8 with a ventral cannon pod.
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/6978/wz89515mar27.jpg

The Z-8 is a Chinese copy of the French Aerospatiale Super Frelon and is designed for shipborne ASW and SAR missions.

[Gerald]

The PLAN's deployments to the Gulf of Aden are normally a pair of Missile Destroyers and Tanker.

http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/3221/2009plansomaliadeploy02.th.jpg (http://img337.imageshack.us/i/2009plansomaliadeploy02.jpg/)
http://img441.imageshack.us/img441/7716/2009planrep887.th.jpg (http://img441.imageshack.us/i/2009planrep887.jpg/)



This are photos of one of their recent deployments. IIRC this was a joint patrol with a Russian Udaloy class DDG late last year.

Recently the PRC has displayed a Z-8 with a ventral cannon pod.
http://img682.imageshack.us/img682/6978/wz89515mar27.jpg

The Z-8 is a Chinese copy of the French Aerospatiale Super Frelon and is designed for shipborne ASW and SAR missions. Copy or homemade? I look into Janes Group and find nothing spec....:hmm2:

[TLAM Strike]

Copy or homemade? I look into Janes Group and find nothing spec....:hmm2:

The chopper? They purchased several Frelons (about 30) from France then began building them on their own.

[Gerald]

The chopper? They purchased several Frelons (about 30) from France then began building them on their own. Have you a clue?

[TLAM Strike]

Have you a clue?


China acquired 13 Super Frelon SA321 naval helicopters in 1977-78. These helicopters came in two variants: anti-submarine warfare (ASW) and search and rescue (SAR) variant. The Super Frelon was the first helicopter of the PLA to be capable of operating from the flying deck of surface vessels. China also produces the Super Frelon locally under the designation Z-8 (land or ship based ASW/SAR helicopter). The Super Frelon remains operational with the PLA Navy today.
Since the early 1980s, the Super Frelons have been frequently used by the PLAN for shipborne ASW and SAR operations. For ASW mission, Z-8 is equipped with a surface search radar, French HS-12 dipping sonar while carrying a Whitehead A244S torpedo under the starboard side of the fuselage. They were also used to ferry supplies from replenishment ship to surface combatants, and transport marine troops from the landing ship to the shore. A naval SAR version called Z-8S with upgraded avionics and a searchlight, FLIR turret and a hoist flew on December 2004. Another rescue variant with dediated medivac eqipment onboard was also developed for the Navy as Z-8JH.
Z-8A version was developed as an army transport version and certified in February 1999. Two Z-8As were delivered to the Army for evaluation in 2001 but the Army decided to purchase more Mi-17V5s. Only one batch of about 6 Z-8A were delivered to the Army in November 2002, with the nose weather radar and side floats retained. Starting in 2007 PLAAF also acquired dozens of upgraded Z-8Ks and Z-8KAs for SAR missions, equipped with an FLIR turret and a searchlight underneath the cabin plus a hoist and a flare dispenser.
from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aérospatiale_Super_Frelon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A9rospatiale_Super_Frelon)


here is a blog post where they mention the new gun pod:
http://china-pla.blogspot.com/2010/03/ac-313.html

[Gerald]

from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aérospatiale_Super_Frelon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A%C3%A9rospatiale_Super_Frelon)


here is a blog post where they mention the new gun pod:
http://china-pla.blogspot.com/2010/03/ac-313.html

For your research :salute:

[TLAM Strike]

For your research :salute:


Ooops, I just saw you were talking about the ships. :damn:

The ship with the tall and boxy Burke style Phased Array Radars is the Luyang-II (http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/type052c_luyang2.asp) Class DDG, while the other is a Luyang-I (http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/type052b_luyang.asp). The tanker is a Qiandaohu class AO. (http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/support/qiandaohu.asp)

[Gerald]

Ooops, I just saw you were talking about the ships. :damn:

The ship with the tall and boxy Burke style Phased Array Radars is the Luyang-II (http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/type052c_luyang2.asp) Class DDG, while the other is a Luyang-I (http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/surface/type052b_luyang.asp). The tanker is a Qiandaohu class AO. (http://www.sinodefence.com/navy/support/qiandaohu.asp)

No more google for me ask TLAM Strike instead,anyway I have sailing for the last 25 years,and one thing has never leave me,there are ship, navy stuff and as well the historic about, different object :up:

[TLAM Strike]

No more google for me ask TLAM Strike instead...

Yep! You are right. That's why Oberon calls me "Jack Ryan", because I'm like a CIA analyst when it comes to foreign navies. :up:

[Gerald]

Yep! You are right. That's why Oberon calls me "Jack Ryan", because I'm like a CIA analyst when it comes to foreign navies. :up:

:yep:

[FIREWALL]

To bad. The Chinese kinda had a golden opportunity.:DL

[Gerald]

To bad. The Chinese kinda had a golden opportunity.:DL

after that I´m going just too china, so I can see with my eyes how they work or even notice whats going on,so be careful,(I refer too post above) Aim the eels to run fine and hit,not me
:haha:

[Skybird]

Interesting (and worrying) references to Iranian swarming tactics in that article. I always wondered how a frigate or destroyer with a helicopter would manage to defend itself when it is attacked by 1 or 2 dozen speedboats simultaneously. Even more I am wondering if some of these boats do not have just machineguns, but maybe also SAMs against helicopters, and light SSMs or RPGs. Neither side would get out of such a fight unhurt. And pictures in that article and part of the comment highlight again how difficult it can be to spot such boats at shallow angles from onboard a ship.

[TLAM Strike]

Interesting (and worrying) references to Iranian swarming tactics in that article. I always wondered how a frigate or destroyer with a helicopter would manage to defend itself when it is attacked by 1 or 2 dozen speedboats simultaneously. Even more I am wondering if some of these boats do not have just machineguns, but maybe also SAMs against helicopters, and light SSMs or RPGs. Neither side would get out of such a fight unhurt. And pictures in that article and part of the comment highlight again how difficult it can be to spot such boats at shallow angles from onboard a ship.

The armaments of the IRGCN speed boats varies but the heaviest weapons I've seen mounted are 107mm rockets. 12.7mm machine guns or 23mm cannons are carried as are M-08 mines and small arms. Never seen a light SSM or SAM since the speed boats pitch up and down so much it would make aiming those difficult.

[Skybird]

And what speaks against a speeboat stopping for short or at least going slow and firing a Stinger against that helicopter?

As well as a decent light ATGM or RPG. Some RPGs reach out for a maximum of 800m. Even the majority of RPG firing at 150-300 meters already are a lethal threat to a ship. Imagine such a projectile imploding on the bridge, or penetrating the turret magazine, a weapons stands, or just the hull in front of the engine room. We know that modern RPGs have taken out Abrams in Iraq from diverse angles. If the sea is calm enough that a trained person can handle a sextant, you certainly can train a person to get off an RPG shot as well.

[TLAM Strike]

And what speaks against a speeboat stopping for short or at least going slow and firing a Stinger against that helicopter?

As well as a decent light ATGM or RPG. Some RPGs reach out for a maximum of 800m. Even the majority of RPG firing at 150-300 meters already are a lethal threat to a ship. Imagine such a projectile imploding on the bridge, or penetrating the turret magazine, a weapons stands, or just the hull in front of the engine room. We know that modern RPGs have taken out Abrams in Iraq from diverse angles. If the sea is calm enough that a trained person can handle a sextant, you certainly can train a person to get off an RPG shot as well.

Well a helicopter can stay out of MANPAD range if it encounters suspicious small craft. The MH-60Rs have a FLIR turret with sufficient range to spot such vessels, also drones can provide early detection of suspicious boats well out of sight of a gunner on their deck.

Simple solution to the RPG problem, in time of war shoot any ship that approaches within 1,000 meters, that's within range of a M61 20mm cannon. An air burst 5in shell would also be devastating miles away- with a drone providing targeting small craft could be engaged well beyond their weapon's range.

[Skybird]

Well I understand all that, but I am about that part of the article'S comment that mentions swarming tactics like in this attempt to catch the Chinese with - so they claimed - 50 speedboats, and then there is the part showing how difficult it can be to spot these damn things from aboard a ship, you see it at one of the photos.

I also do not know what kind of mounting devices you need for Stinger or RPG-style weapons!? You need a man and you need two hands and one shoulder, no tripod. And now consider a scenario where you have lets say 3 frigates, a naval area with plenty of fishing boats - and suddenly 2 dozens skiffs or even rubberboats of them start zigzaggin and racing at the frigates, maybe even loaded up with explosives planned to go off on contact, who knows. You are in the middle of a frenzy, numerous tiny contacts zigzagging and going stop-and-go, flooding the defender's field of vision, plus the attempt to sepoarate targets from civilians who also may speed up in an attempt to flee from the area.

So far only the pirates seem to use swarm tactics with so many boats. Consider that being the case with fanatical Republican Guards, in a limited body of water like the Hormuz straits, maybe even with an SS lurking somewhere close by!

There is a saying in German: viele Hunde sind des Hasen Tod. Many hounds soon catch the hare, or not? In a scneario of 12 speedboats with RPG and close range air defence missiles against a frigate with a helcioter, I would not automatically put my money on the frigate. Even less so when the speedboats are not operated by somali pirates with poor training and discipline, but fanatics who have received very strict military training and discipline.

[TLAM Strike]

Well those photos were taken from deck level- maybe on the bridge wings. Many warships now have EO/FLIR sensors on their masts nearly doubling the horizon for them.

Sky I think you should read up on what the capabilities of the USN's 5 in gun. Its has the speed of traverse and accuracy to shoot down subsonic missiles. It has been combat proven against such small craft back during the tanker war. The Ticonderoga class CG that shot down the Iranian Jet Liner did that while in a gun fight with several Boghammer boats. The CG sank several Boghammers, none of which was able to successfully engage the cruiser.

The smaller Oto Breda 76mm Rapid Fire found on USN frigates, Allied Frigates and USCG Cutters would be even more effective since it has a larger capacity of rounds ready to fire and traverses even faster.

Don't forget the US also has its own small craft that could counter them. The 34' Force Protection Boat comes to mind. It doesn't have the heavy weapons and is a little slower but it has more small arms and better armor. Those Swedish assault boats the USN purchased would also be useful.

[Skybird]

Well, I admit I see it from an outsider's perspective and cannot competently comment on the specific platforms and systems you refer to. I know of things like the Phalanx-system and that it can bring down incoming vampires, to what degree it is agile enough to engage two dozen small, zigzagging targets simultaneously I have no idea of, so: now is the point in the debate where I necessarily must fold. :salute:

[Jimbuna]

TLAM raises good points and explanations......crerate a 1000 metre exclusion zone with a multi-layered defence to include (and not in any specific order) missiles, guns, aircraft and CIWS systems....anything approaches and they are fair game.

I should imagine the message would soon get across.

Now, include a carrier and accompanying AWAC.....set the exclusion zone to anything you want.

[TLAM Strike]

Now, include a carrier and accompanying AWAC.....set the exclusion zone to anything you want.

I doubt a the USN would send a carrier anywhere near the range of these boats in wartime. A CVN would most likely patrol about 500 nm out in the Indian Ocean to be out of range of shore based SSMs and to give their alert fighters ample time to react to any approaching bogies.

[Jimbuna]

I doubt a the USN would send a carrier anywhere near the range of these boats in wartime. A CVN would most likely patrol about 500 nm out in the Indian Ocean to be out of range of shore based SSMs and to give their alert fighters ample time to react to any approaching bogies.


Most definitely....hence setting the exclusion zone to a far wider radious.....I doubt they'd get close enough to see the plume of smoke of any surface vessel :DL

[Gerald]

Pakistan begins submarine procurement talks with China and that could take place in different ways.."Our Chinese brothers have always come to our help and we are asking them for assistance".Sounds vicissitude,was they really is more likely,cover-operation.

[TLAM Strike]

Most definitely....hence setting the exclusion zone to a far wider radious.....I doubt they'd get close enough to see the plume of smoke of any surface vessel :DL

Doubt our ships would be giving off much of a smoke plume. They are gas turbine ships plus the diffusers work very well on US ships.

I would be more worried about an Iranian MPA (P-3 or Fokker F-27) detecting the carrier group. Or a fishing trawler "tattling" on them.

Iran also has two recon birds up in orbit. Sina-1 has low 50m resolution- not sufficient for military purposes. SMMS has a slightly better 20m resolution- that capability while still low could become worrisome.

A civilian ship with concealed C-802 launchers would also be a major concern. During the IRGCN's "Great Prophet 5" exercises they demonstrated a C-802 launcher built in to a mid size commercial truck.
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2518/532105orig.jpg
Not hard to imagine a version mounted in a shipping container much like that new Russian system for the SS-N-27 'Sizzler'.

[Jimbuna]

Doubt our ships would be giving off much of a smoke plume. They are gas turbine ships plus the diffusers work very well on US ships.

I would be more worried about an Iranian MPA (P-3 or Fokker F-27) detecting the carrier group. Or a fishing trawler "tattling" on them.

Iran also has two recon birds up in orbit. Sina-1 has low 50m resolution- not sufficient for military purposes. SMMS has a slightly better 20m resolution- that capability while still low could become worrisome.

A civilian ship with concealed C-802 launchers would also be a major concern. During the IRGCN's "Great Prophet 5" exercises they demonstrated a C-802 launcher built in to a mid size commercial truck.

Not hard to imagine a version mounted in a shipping container much like that new Russian system for the SS-N-27 'Sizzler'.

I recognise and applaude your high level of in-depth knowledge but surely a carier battle group would have more than sufficient layers of defence, besides...surely an exclusion zone would include 'civilian' shipping?

[TLAM Strike]

I recognise and applaude your high level of in-depth knowledge but surely a carier battle group would have more than sufficient layers of defence, besides...surely an exclusion zone would include 'civilian' shipping?

The Indian ocean is the 'Hub' of some of the most active shipping lanes in the world. You have the shipping coming from the Persian Gulf, Malacca strait and from the Red sea passing though the region.

It could be impractical to have a EZ around a carrier is such waters simply because there would be so much shipping to be rerouted. The CSG would spend more time warning ships away then conducting strikes against targets. Any EZ would probably be small- a few miles wide to stop suicide attacks. Putting a 60 nm (C-802 range) EZ around every ship in the CSG would quickly take up a wide area especially if they have an extended ASW screen to counter Iranian Kilos.

[Jimbuna]

The Indian ocean is the 'Hub' of some of the most active shipping lanes in the world. You have the shipping coming from the Persian Gulf, Malacca strait and from the Red sea passing though the region.

It could be impractical to have a EZ around a carrier is such waters simply because there would be so much shipping to be rerouted. The CSG would spend more time warning ships away then conducting strikes against targets. Any EZ would probably be small- a few miles wide to stop suicide attacks. Putting a 60 nm (C-802 range) EZ around every ship in the CSG would quickly take up a wide area especially if they have an extended ASW screen to counter Iranian Kilos.

Yep....makes sense http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif