How Gracious of them (politics)

[SteamWake]

Our benevolent leaders in washington graciously vote to allow us our constitutanal right...


WASHINGTON -- The Supreme Court ruled Monday that the Constitution's "right to keep and bear arms" applies nationwide as a restraint on the ability of the federal, state and local governments to substantially limit its reach.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/06/28/AR2010062802134_pf.html

[Sailor Steve]

Oh, lighten up, man. We won! The court has been avoiding this for decades, and they finally decided for liberty and against government.

I think part of what you're objecting to is the wording, and yet that 'negative' wording is evident in Constitutional Amendments as well.

The right of citizens of the United States to vote shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or by any State on account of sex.

Congress shall have power to enforce this article by appropriate legislation.

I see this as a very good thing.

[SteamWake]

Well the legislation passed by one vote.. legislation to uphold the constitution :o by one vote... :o

But dont worry its just a temporary diversion

[Sailor Steve]

But the Supreme Court is the interpreter of the...:rotfl2:

Two hundred years later I still wonder if John Marshall was a true hero or the Devil incarnate. :hmmm:

[OneToughHerring]

Whoa yea let's go shoot some Indians! :shucks:

[August]

The court ruled 5-4 (and I bet I know which ones voted against it too) but this was such a no brainer that it should have been a unanimous decision. Imagine a SC justice saying that the right to free speech does not apply to a state ban on free speech.

[MH]

What do you need guns for in US?
All commies are dead.
I as someone who come from country which is full of guns-you can see someone caring an M16 or pistol everywhere(soldiers,reservist,security people).I think that easiness with which one can acquire gun in US is kind of stupid.
As far as i know there is no good background check or check for legitimacy to own a gun.
Not even talking about forcing some kind of proper training.:nope:

[Snestorm]

It's nice to see such an improvement in Reading Comprehension within the court.

August is again right. It should have been 9 - 0, but they did manage to find the right answer.

Overall, excellent news.

[OneToughHerring]

The court ruled 5-4 (and I bet I know which ones voted against it too) but this was such a no brainer that it should have been a unanimous decision. Imagine a SC justice saying that the right to free speech does not apply to a state ban on free speech.

Yes because speaking is the same thing as shooting with a weapon.

[Snestorm]

Yes because speaking is the same thing as shooting with a weapon.

Have you ever taken the time to read The US Constitution?

I highly recommend that you do.

[OneToughHerring]

Have you ever taken the time to read The US Constitution?

I highly recommend that you do.

Are you trying to say that speaking and shooting with a weapon isn't the same thing? Sounds like you are an enemy of freedom.

[GoldenRivet]

Speaking Freely and owning a fire arm are about as much the same as driving a car and reading a book...

the thing you fail to see is that the constitution SPECIFICALLY guarantees each and every United States Citizen various rights... among them:

1. The right to free speech

2. the right to keep firearms

3. none of these rights shall be infringed upon by the federal, state or local governments of the United States of America.

its black and white, cut & dry and requires NO intelligence to be able to figure it out.

ANY law which interferes with a citizen's ability to own and operate a private firearm is an infringement of a basic right guaranteed by the constitution.

August is right - should have been 9 - 0 and the fact that it wasnt is cause for concern.

[UnderseaLcpl]

As soon as I saw this on the news I thought "Steamwake has a thread about this, and at least one word in the title is misspelled". At least I was half right:DL

I'm happy about the decision, though it doesn't affect me, personally - none of my weapons are registered anyway, and they never will be:O:

What do you need guns for in US? Self-defense, sport, and enforcement of liberty. It may seem stupid to some, but many in the US prefer to take their security into their own hands, rather than entrust it entirely to the state, for the simple reason that we don't trust the efficacy of the police or the competence and benevolence of government.

I will never surrender my weapons. I remember seeing the footage of the nationwide arms confiscation in Britain, where thousands were lined up and forced to deposit their weapons at collection stations for destruction. They looked utterly defeated. A beaten people surrendering their right to self-preservation and self-determination. Americans would not abide that.

[GoldenRivet]

yes... that surrender of firearms was pathetic. it was like an army surrendering to some massive superior force.

I'll shoot it out - to the death if need be - with the authorities before I'll surrender my firearms. period.

Im not bat **** crazy... i just know my rights, and the government does not have the authority to stand between a man and his firearms.

we have guns in America for several reasons

1. to protect us from intrusion and harm

2. for sport (hunting, target shooting etc)

3. to protect us from the Government... ANY government anywhere can become a tyranny - even the U.S. Government. and when the entire system of liberty and justice fails, the pointy end of a firearm is the only thing that can keep an honest man honest.

you have to look at the situation our nation was born into to really understand this fundamental right.

[OneToughHerring]

I will never surrender my weapons. I remember seeing the footage of the nationwide arms confiscation in Britain, where thousands were lined up and forced to deposit their weapons at collection stations for destruction. They looked utterly defeated. A beaten people surrendering their right to self-preservation and self-determination. Americans would not abide that.

Have you ever lived in a country where there was very little or no need to have a weapon for self defence? Do you think living in a country where there isn't as much crime as there is in the States might make you feel differently about weapons?

Personally I think having firearms is a hassle, I have better things to do with money.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Have you ever lived in a country where there was very little or no need to have a weapon for self defence? Do you think living in a country where there isn't as much crime as there is in the States might make you feel differently about weapons?

Depends on what kind of country you're talking about. Are we talking about a country that is productive and wealthy and takes charge of it's own destiny like Switzerland, or some whiny, stifling, nanny-state? I guess if I lived in a nanny-state my views might change. After all, it wouldn't be like there was anywhere to go but down.

Now, let me ask you this. If Russians were still invading your country, would your views on weapons change?

[Takeda Shingen]

Personally I think having firearms is a hassle, I have better things to do with money.

I think it a waste of money too, but I also believe that if someone wants to waste their money in that fashion, it is their right to do so. Also, most violent crime involving firearms is perpetrated by individuals who obtain their arms illegally.

Honestly, I think that if we were talking about gun ownership in Australia, you wouldn't care. Mentioning the United States of America is like the proverbial red cape to the bull.

[GoldenRivet]

Mentioning United States of America is like the proverbial red cape to the bull.

100% dead on accurate.

[SteamWake]

You know the issue here is not really wether or not it is a good thing to own guns, its not about free speech.

Its about almost 1/2 of the judges disagree with the frakin constitution.

I'm waiting for the 'Consitution is obsolete' argument.

[Takeda Shingen]

I'm waiting for the 'Consitution is obsolete' argument.

I don't think you're going to see it. I'm not certain that anyone here believe that the constitution is obsolete.

[UnderseaLcpl]

Constitution is obsolete!:DL

[GoldenRivet]

doh


but is it?

i mean supreme court justices ruling 5-4 on a basic constitutional right?

give me a break

[gimpy117]

I think they're starting too see that that part IS obsolete. remember the constitution was given the ability to be changed just for that reason. The right to bear arms was set up partly for the people to be able to rise up against a government. But not we can own Semi auto guns, and the army has Machine guns, tanks, planes, and missiles.


Personally, I think the time has come for more comprehensive weapons laws. Better background checks, and make it much, much harder to get a pistol or assault weapon. If you are a law abiding citizen you would have nothing to worry about...you'd get your gun end of story. I own guns, but im not worried about them being taken away, or not being able to get another because my background is clear.

[SteamWake]

It was only a matter of time.

[Snestorm]

@gimpy117
The 2. Ammendment states that the government "Shall NOT INFRINGE on the people's right to keep and bare arms".

[gimpy117]

The 2. Ammendment states that the government "Shall NOT INFRINGE on the people's right to keep and bare arms".

but amendments can be amended.

[Snestorm]

but amendments can be amended.

Yes they can.
And that is the correct method of making changes, not through "interpretations" from english to english.

[Platapus]

Before you guys get all excited about the decision, look past the fact that the decision happens to be one you agree with and look at the actual court decision (www.supremecourt.gov). Yes it is 214 pages long but if you really want to understand what just happened, you need to read it. :yep:

All you states rights people should be very angry and you should thank the dissenting justices for thinking about state rights.

Especially read the dissenting opinion by Stevens, Breyer, Ginsburg, and Sotomayor. The dissenting opinion also supports the Second Amendment but dissented at this interpretation of the 14th Amendment.

What just happened is that a major precedent as been set. This court's decision establishes that the Incorporation Doctrine interpretation of the 14th Amendment now establishes that federal laws will now take precedence over state laws in areas what used to be strictly within the purview of the State Government.

Ladies and Gentlemen, we may have won the battle, but lost the war for state rights. :yep:

There is probably no stronger proponent for gun ownership rights than I am. But I see this as a bad precedent. While I may agree with the decision, I strongly disagree with the interpretation of the 14th Amendment this way.

Remember, this case was not about whether the Second Amendment gives everyone the right to own firearms, it was about whether the Incorporation Doctrine interpretation of the 14th Amendment grants to the Federal Government the power to superscribed State Laws. A subtle but very important decision.

So if you are a State's Rights and a limited Federal Government type of person, this was not the decision you should be happy with.

Look beyond the gun issue on this. :yep:

[CaptainHaplo]

ANY law which interferes with a citizen's ability to own and operate a private firearm is an infringement of a basic right guaranteed by the constitution.

Were this true, the laws banning convicted felons from acquiring a firearm would be unconstitutional as well. Thankfully, this is not the case. The Court did get it right. But you have to be careful with such broad statements.

[OneToughHerring]

Depends on what kind of country you're talking about. Are we talking about a country that is productive and wealthy and takes charge of it's own destiny like Switzerland, or some whiny, stifling, nanny-state? I guess if I lived in a nanny-state my views might change. After all, it wouldn't be like there was anywhere to go but down.

Now, let me ask you this. If Russians were still invading your country, would your views on weapons change?

So the answer is no, you haven't lived in such as country. Figures.

[OneToughHerring]

I think it a waste of money too, but I also believe that if someone wants to waste their money in that fashion, it is their right to do so. Also, most violent crime involving firearms is perpetrated by individuals who obtain their arms illegally.

Honestly, I think that if we were talking about gun ownership in Australia, you wouldn't care. Mentioning the United States of America is like the proverbial red cape to the bull.

What about full auto weapons? Should people have the right to buy those from the grocery store, no background checks? What about high explosives, RPG's, anti-aircraft missiles, etc.?

I oppose lax gun laws in Finland, I don't really care if the Americans are forced to 'pack heat' every time they leave the house and sleep with a gun under the pillow. Maybe that is just an example of the bad conscience of the US, they know their past will catch up with eventually.

[August]

I think they're starting too see that that part IS obsolete. remember the constitution was given the ability to be changed just for that reason. The right to bear arms was set up partly for the people to be able to rise up against a government. But not we can own Semi auto guns, and the army has Machine guns, tanks, planes, and missiles.


Personally, I think the time has come for more comprehensive weapons laws. Better background checks, and make it much, much harder to get a pistol or assault weapon. If you are a law abiding citizen you would have nothing to worry about...you'd get your gun end of story. I own guns, but im not worried about them being taken away, or not being able to get another because my background is clear.

Maybe, maybe not, but either way making such decisions is not the job of the court. Their job is to determine the constitutionality of the cases brought before them, period. They have absolutely no business "legislating from the bench".

[Snestorm]

Maybe, maybe not, but either way making such decisions is not the job of the court. Their job is to determine the constitutionality of the cases brought before them, period. They have absolutely no business "legislating from the bench".

Bingo!
Right on the money!

[Takeda Shingen]

What about full auto weapons? Should people have the right to buy those from the grocery store, no background checks? What about high explosives, RPG's, anti-aircraft missiles, etc.?

I oppose lax gun laws in Finland, I don't really care if the Americans are forced to 'pack heat' every time they leave the house and sleep with a gun under the pillow. Maybe that is just an example of the bad conscience of the US, they know their past will catch up with eventually.

Case in point. Any futher rebuttal of you would be redundant at this point. Now, if you will excuse me, I am on my way to Giant to purchase some SAMs for my front yard.

[GoldenRivet]

What about full auto weapons? Should people have the right to buy those from the grocery store, no background checks? What about high explosives, RPG's, anti-aircraft missiles, etc.?

Yes... IMHO if you -as a private citizen - can afford to purchase an M1 Abrams battle tank, you should be able to follow the appropriate channels to legally purchase one.

if you ask me... anything the military has access to - the citizens should have access to.

but then again my interpretation to 2nd amendment rights is extremely liberal to say the least.

[SteamWake]

Yes... IMHO if you -as a private citizen - can afford to purchase an M1 Abrams battle tank, you should be able to follow the appropriate channels to legally purchase one.

if you ask me... anything the military has access to - the citizens should have access to.

but then again my interpretation to 2nd amendment rights is extremely liberal to say the least.

Woh hey yea... I want access to a F16 :yeah:

[Takeda Shingen]

Woh hey yea... I want access to a F16 :yeah:

Pfft, wimp. Give my an LGM-30G with a W87.

[razark]

I don't think you're going to see it. I'm not certain that anyone here believe that the constitution is obsolete.

I'll bite on that one. That particular part of the Constitution IS obsolete.

The Second Amendment was written at a time when an oppressed population had recently armed itself, risen up, and thrown off their shackles. The Second Amendment was not written so that people could defend themselves from robbery. It was not written so that people can go hunting in deer season. It was not written so some guy with a shotgun could stop the Russians from invading. It was written so that an armed population could put an end to an out of control government.

The Second Amendment was written in a time when the average citizen could be equally well equipped as the government soldiers. A farmer could easily become an infantry soldier. A few craftsmen could put together the funds and buy a cannon. A town could easily put together enough people, with the same equipment, to face down the regular Army.

But technology has moved on. The army is no longer using those same muskets. The town cannon is a memorial, not a working artillery piece. The government forces can field mechanized infantry, tanks, helicopters, and jet planes. The government forces can call in airstrikes from aircraft carriers, cruise missiles from submarines, artillery bombardment from miles away. If it came to it, the government has nuclear weapons that it could employ.

I don't care how many handguns, rifles, and shotguns you have. Without equality to the equipment and training that the government can field, an armed population cannot stand against it. Unless you advocate giving every citizen access to their own automatic weapons, private ownership of armor, a local air force, artillery, and naval forces (including nuclear weapons), the Second Amendment will never be able to serve its original purpose.

So, yes, some parts of the Constitution become obsolete. There used to be parts in there about slavery. There used to be a bit in there about prohibition. But those were taken out with Amendments, using the Constitutionally provided process, and any changes to the Second Amendment needs to be dealt with the same way.

[GoldenRivet]

Woh hey yea... I want access to a F16 :yeah:

that makes two of us... but then again, its out of my budget. :oops:

[Sailor Steve]

I think they're starting too see that that part IS obsolete. remember the constitution was given the ability to be changed just for that reason. The right to bear arms was set up partly for the people to be able to rise up against a government. But not we can own Semi auto guns, and the army has Machine guns, tanks, planes, and missiles.
What do you know of the naval side of the Revolution? War of 1812? Do you know what a Letter of Marque was? Most of the small warships of the time were privately owned, with the biggest cannons that would fit. The government gave them official license to act as 'Privateers', or government-sanctioned pirates.

You do realize the the shooting started in April 1775 because the British Military Governor of Massachussets sent troops to confiscate the contents of a privately owned armory, including cannons? That's the main reason we have the Second Amendment - to guarantee that citizens can have the same firepower as the government. Because the government is never to be trusted.

[August]

I don't care how many handguns, rifles, and shotguns you have. Without equality to the equipment and training that the government can field, an armed population cannot stand against it. Unless you advocate giving every citizen access to their own automatic weapons, private ownership of armor, a local air force, artillery, and naval forces (including nuclear weapons), the Second Amendment will never be able to serve its original purpose.

You're making a couple of assumptions here that are neither accurate nor born out by history.

First an armed population not counting non combatants would potentially number upwards of 100 million. Even armed with just popguns that is a force to be reckoned with.

Second access to auto weapons, armor, artillery and other ground combat weapons is little more than a trip to the local national guard armory away.

Third if the US Military were ordered by the Federal government to make war on American civilians it would see wholesale desertions to the insurgent side , most of them bringing their equipment with them.

Fourth the government hasn't used nuclear weapons since WW2. What makes you think they would use them on US soil, against US citizens?

Fifth the US military hasn't fully defeated an insurrection since the civil war. Even if they did remain loyal to the government they would find pacifying a pissed off US citizenry far more difficult. I don't know the numbers of civilians with military experience out there but we are very numerous. Many of us are armed and still have contacts within the military.

Sixth I can't see the Federal Government willing to pay the price in blood it would cost to disarm the entire population even if we are just a bunch of farmers with shotguns. They certainly wouldn't be willing to turn the country into an uninhabitable wasteland to subdue the population.

[gimpy117]

First an armed population not counting non combatants would potentially number upwards of 100 million. Even armed with just popguns that is a force to be reckoned with.


I have a hard time believing that it would be anything other than a wholesale slaughter of 100 Million laughably equipped civies.

were outgunned in every way. read razark's post.

[UnderseaLcpl]

I have a hard time believing that it would be anything other than a wholesale slaughter of 100 Million laughably equipped civies.

were outgunned in every way.

It's that simple is it? A high-tech government force versus a motley milita? Would it be a wholesale slaughter?

I've heard this argument before, and like others, you are oversimplifying. Even a handful of properly trained troops can wreak absolute havoc with nothing more than second-rate firearms and household supplies. Never underestimate the strength of an insurgency. We've learned this lesson too many times to be ignoring it now, and we learned it while facing second-rate cannon fodder. There is no telling what kind of damage an armed American insurgency could do.

You also assume that the military would be on only one side. When it comes to national policies of all kinds and constitutionality, the military falls mostly on the side of conservativism. They would not likely take kindly to any obvious infraction or restraint of protected rights. I, for one, would not fight on the federal side.

Perhaps your view on the subject has been colored by the ineptitude of the current terrorist insurgency. I assure you, an American insurgency would not be the same thing. The relative success in terms of cost/benefit in the war on terror has much more to do with the complete incompetence of the insurgents than it does with the skill of our own forces. I've seen them fight...and they suck. They can't shoot, they can't maneuver, and they are cowards.

An American insurgency would be a whole different beast. It would likely have the backing of a generations' worth of ex-military professionals and a civilian populace that knows how to use weapons. It would not be brief, and it would not be a slaughter. It would be a long, drawn-out, bloody conflict. Consider what the South did to the North in the war for Southern Independence, and then consider what proportion of industrial infrastructure and population the South now holds.

The civilian population of the US is not "laughably equipped" by any stretch of the imagination. Let's hope we don't have to find that out the hard way again.

[razark]

Hrm...

I thought the Second Amendment was about the right of the civilian population "to keep and bear arms", not "to steal whatever they can once the beep hits the fan", or the right of the military to defect and join the rebelling forces.

[CaptainHaplo]

I have to laugh every time someone says that a high tech military force can overcome a "obsolete" equipped "civilian" force....

Think so?

Perhaps you can explain the Russian war in Afghanistan then....
Or maybe you can explain the lack of total success in Iraq and Afghanistan by US and other forces.

When talking about a true civilian insurrection against its own government in the US, its obvious that those who claim it would be a cakewalk for the government have no clue as to how this country works.

Do you really think that the government, that relies on the people for its existence, that relies on a volunteer army made up of those same civilians in major numbers, can thus look at its military and say "go kill the people who pay for everything, your friends, neighbors and countrymen"? If you think the military would obey that, you have no understanding of this country. The military would itself overthrow the rogue regime.

Sure, there have been rumblings by a few politicians who care more for power than freedom, but all it takes is a look at the support that organizations such as Oath Keepers has within military and civilian law enforcement to see that the government doesn't have the means necessary to turn itself against the citizenry.

Even if it did have the means, the government realizes that it must have the support - ie taxes - of the citizenry to function. Hard to do when you have to kill pretty much the entire society to pacify it. That would be the necessity - and if you don't get that, you don't get what it means to the American citizen to truly be free.

[CaptainHaplo]

Hrm...

I thought the Second Amendment was about the right of the civilian population "to keep and bear arms", not "to steal whatever they can once the beep hits the fan", or the right of the military to defect and join the rebelling forces.

Razark - where did anyone say anything about stealing?

Or are you talking about going to the local armory? Because if so, how can it be stealing when its my money - aka taxes - that paid for that tank, LAW, Stryker, Rifle, MRE, and everything else? If I paid for it - I have a claim to it. Currently, the citizenry entrusts the care of such items to the military, through the government. Should the government unlawfully turn against its society, then it abrogates that trust and the citizenry is well within its legal rights to remove such equipment from an illegally acting government.

The mistake your making is that you think the citizens answer to the government. Not in this country. The government answers to the people. It may not seem that way - but that is why you have such a big civilian push to reassert the rights we are guaranteed under our Constitution.

[razark]

Or are you talking about going to the local armory? Because if so, how can it be stealing when its my money - aka taxes - that paid for that tank, LAW, Stryker, Rifle, MRE, and everything else? If I paid for it - I have a claim to it.
Please, I would like to see a video of you asserting that claim. It would be most interesting.

Currently, the citizenry entrusts the care of such items to the military, through the government. Should the government unlawfully turn against its society, then it abrogates that trust and the citizenry is well within its legal rights to remove such equipment from an illegally acting government.
The intent of the Second Amendment was that the citizens would not entrust the custody and use of the weapons to the government. They would be in the hands of the citizens themselves. The citizens wouldn't have to go get them from the government when it started getting out of line, the government would be too afraid to step out of line, because the citizens ALREADY HAD the means to rise up and overthrow the government.

But that's not the way it is. You are not allowed to keep certain types of weapons. And frankly, there is a real need to keep certain types of weapons from people. Think about some of the people you know. I'm sure you can think of someone nearby that doesn't need access to a machine gun. How about the people driving on the freeway? Would you trust most of them driving a tank? Imagine drive-by shootings with anti-tank rockets.

The Second Amendment is obsolete for it's intended purpose. Whether that is a good or a bad thing is a completely different discussion.

[CaptainHaplo]

Please, I would like to see a video of you asserting that claim. It would be most interesting.

I would never do so unless the government had created the absolute need for it. Thankfully, it hasn't, and I hope and pray that such a day never comes. If it ever did so, I am sorry but I wouldn't have the time, energy or focus needed to videotape it and put it up on youtube, since I would be a bit busy fighting for the freedom of this country. I am sure you will understand.

The Second Amendment is obsolete for it's intended purpose.

If this was the case, why is it that elements of the body politic, from the local levels, to the state, and on to the federal level, feel a need to get rid of the Second Amendment? The reality is that an armed populace means that government cannot do whatever it wants without risk. That is why you have many politicians at every level that want to remove that risk. In the case before the Court, they got it right in noting that the American citizenry has the RIGHT to retain its ability to control government, via an armed populace.

As for the issue of tanks in civilian hands, etc. - note that I have not advocated that military hardware be in the hands of civilians. Unless an armed uprising of the people is necessary, then it shouldn't be. Right now, its not, and thus the people should not have unfettered access. Should the actions of the government change that situation, then the NEED for such equipment in the hands of the populace would change as well.

As I said, we entrust such things to a legally operating government. As long as it stays within the parameters set for it by law and the people (not just one or the other) - then things should stay that way. It is only as a last resort in defense of our freedom that force by the populace becomes an acceptable alternative.

[August]

Do you really think that the government, that relies on the people for its existence, that relies on a volunteer army made up of those same civilians in major numbers, can thus look at its military and say "go kill the people who pay for everything, your friends, neighbors and countrymen"? If you think the military would obey that, you have no understanding of this country. The military would itself overthrow the rogue regime. Exactly. We've done it before, just ask the British.

[Sailor Steve]

I'm always fascinated by discussions of Rights. Some people seem to think a right is something granted by the government. It's not. Of course our natural rights are limited by the existence of others around us, but they are natural rights nonetheless.

The comment that the Second Amendment is about the overthrow of the government is true, but the point about defense against robbery and hunting is not. I've used that distinction myself when making the point about why it was written, but the fact is that everyone has a natural right to defend their family by any means available, and everyone has a right to hunt their own food. These rights are restricted by mutual agreement. Government imposition by law is an expression and acknowledgement of that agreement.

I don't have a right to kill my neighbor's dog for my supper, because it infringes his right to ownership of said dog. I have given up my right to hunt legitimate food animals except in the proper season because it is to our benefit to protect those animals as much as possible, and there is ample food available commercially so I won't starve by not hunting. I can complain about certain laws, but we create them to protect all of us, and we can change them through legal means or we can break them and take our chances.

The Anti-Federalists refused to accept the Constitution unless it contained a Bill Of Rights, and they won their fight. They believed that all rights belonged to the people and none to the government, which is created by and for the people. We make laws to protect ourselves from each other, but it is easy to go beyond that concept. Just look at helmet and seatbelt laws. But the Bill Of Rights is there to guarantee our protection against encroachment - any encroachment - by the government. James Madison originally opposed the Bill Of Rights for that very reason. He believed that if they made a list of rights protected by the Constitution they would inevitably leave something out, and it would only be a matter of time before someone said "They didn't mention that one, so they must not have meant it!" Just look at the recent "Right to Privacy" arguments. That is why he made sure to include the Ninth Amendment.

Argue that the Constitution is outmoded if you like. The fact is that they really did want it to be flexible, hence the amendment process. Argue that the Second Amendment should be removed. That's your right. Try to get it changed or removed by Amendment. That could happen, but it's not very likely. The process was made to be difficult and slow for a reason. But remember, the basic idea is that ALL Rights belong to the people, and none to the government.

[razark]

...note that I have not advocated that military hardware be in the hands of civilians. Unless an armed uprising of the people is necessary, then it shouldn't be. Right now, its not, and thus the people should not have unfettered access.
But the intent of the Second Amendment was to allow citizens to possess military hardware. Hence the fact that advancing technology has made it obsolete.

[CaptainHaplo]

But the intent of the Second Amendment was to allow citizens to possess military hardware. Hence the fact that advancing technology has made it obsolete.

See this is where I think your wrong. The intent was to insure than the government always knew it must answer to the people - by allowing the people to maintain the last resort option of an overthrow or resistance by force.

What your doing is confusing the forest and the trees. Yes, at the time it was crafted, military and civilian hardware were basically the same. Time has changed that. Yet an armed populace, with handguns and rifles, still present a huge "threat" to government IF that government chooses to disregard the will of the governed.

You doubt that a "armed mob" using legally owned weapons can exert significant pressure on government to make that government listen?

http://www.cfif.org/htdocs/legislative_issues/state_issues/legis_state_tennessee.htm

Three years in a row an UNARMED protest stopped the Tennessee legislature from authorizing a state income tax..... Now if those lawmakers listen to a mass of unarmed civilians, how much more likely are they willing to listen to armed civilians that are clearly willing to both kill and die in defence of their liberties in opposition to a rogue government?

The citizenry doesn't need to fight government, it simply must show that it has the MEANS (standard civilian armaments being sufficient in the world we have today) and the WILL to do so, to hold the government in check. This is the purpose of the second amendment. It is not to insure that every citizen can have a tank. Which, by the way, if you can afford, you can get, though some key systems will be dismantled and removed. Also, in many instances, those key systems are replacable with lesser but still highly lethal options that can be "cobbled" together to do the job.

The Second Amendment is a guarantee to the people that they can maintain a credible deterrent to an oppressive government. It does not state how that deterrent is to be maintained other than the "right to bear arms". It does not say what arms they are. It has been the people, through the actions of government, that have decided (correctly in my view) that standard civilian firearms are generally sufficient. Your position confuses the "how" with the "why".

[DarkFish]

the thing you fail to see is that the constitution SPECIFICALLY guarantees each and every United States Citizen various rights... among them:

2. the right to keep firearms

So because something's in the constitution, does that mean it's the right thing by definition?
Wouldn't that be the same thing as saying slavery is legal, because in the original constitution it was? That would mean the 13th amendment is as much against "your constitutional right" as disallowing firearms.

Because a constitutional right happened to be useful in the past, it doesn't mean it's some right that will always be useful and may not be changed.

[Snestorm]

So because something's in the constitution, does that mean it's the right thing by definition?
Wouldn't that be the same thing as saying slavery is legal, because in the original constitution it was? That would mean the 13th amendment is as much against "your constitutional right" as disallowing firearms.

Because a constitutional right happened to be useful in the past, it doesn't mean it's some right that will always be useful and may not be changed.

The US Constitution can be ammended, and THAT is how changes (updates) are made.
Not via The Bench, nor by common legislation.

[August]

Wouldn't that be the same thing as saying slavery is legal, because in the original constitution it was?

Excuse me but where in the original constitution did it ever say slavery was legal?

[Sailor Steve]

But the intent of the Second Amendment was to allow citizens to possess military hardware. Hence the fact that advancing technology has made it obsolete.
I agree that some weapons are more dangerous than others, and that is an interesting discussion to have. I just want to clarify one thing that seems to keep being misunderstood.

The intent of the Second, or of any Amendment, is not to 'allow' anything. The intent of the Bill of Rights is to guarantee pre-existing natural or 'God-given' rights from any interference by the government. The only 'allowing' to be done is what the Constitution 'allows' the government to do. The intent of the Constitution was to set up a form of government with certain powers and no others. The fact that that government has time and again been used for purposes the Founders never wanted is not an excuse to keep 'allowing' it to happen.

Again: All RIGHTs belong to the people, none to the government.

[TarJak]

Excuse me but where in the original constitution did it ever say slavery was legal?
Until the 13th ammendment it also didn't say it was illegal. At the time of the original drafting slavery was legal and there are certainly implied references to slavery and the slave trade in the original constitution.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_slav.html
http://www.usconstitution.net/constfaq_a3.html#Q59
http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec2.html
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec9

[August]

Until the 13th ammendment it also didn't say it was illegal. At the time of the original drafting slavery was legal and there are certainly implied references to slavery and the slave trade in the original constitution.

http://www.usconstitution.net/consttop_slav.html
http://www.usconstitution.net/constfaq_a3.html#Q59
http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec2.html
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#A1Sec9

Implications are not the same thing as an outright statement of legalty. In any case the 13th certainly clarified that status and like the 2nd Amendment further amendments would be necessary to abrogate it.

[Sailor Steve]

Until the 13th ammendment it also didn't say it was illegal. At the time of the original drafting slavery was legal and there are certainly implied references to slavery and the slave trade in the original constitution.
Very true. But the Constitution was not meant to be the law of the land, just the handbook for the Federal Government. Slavery was indeed a part of the debates, and the compromise that was reached came about because at that time the Fed was not meant to interfere with the States and certain States refused to join if slavery was outlawed, and also if they didn't get certain concessions in the "representation" department.

So you're right in that slavery was legal. It is accepted by the Constitution because that document wasn't meant to tell the states what to do.

Just clearing things up a little.