New Skipper Needs Help Finding Targets

[gollum65]

Ok guys. I'm brand new to SH4 and to sub sims in general. The only experience I have that's relative is I'm a long time pilot of civilian flight sims so I understand headings and bearings and such (I think).

After going through the first 3 training missions in sub school I started my career and set sail. My first mission was to go to Honshu and engage merchant shipping. After spending a ton of time sailing from Pearl to Honshu I reached my target area and started sailing search patterns. On 2 or 3 occasions my sonar would pick up merchant ships and I'd tell him to "follow" the ship while I tried to adjust my course to intercept. This is where I'm losing it. I can turn my boat to the direction of the contact and head towards him, but before I ever get to within visual range or close enough to shoot, my sonar guy looses him and I have no idea where he is or how to reacquire the target.

I've read through the Skipper's tips thread and watched many of Robbin's videos but I'm still not getting it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. Sure would have been nice if "Submarine School" in the game actually taught you something. :nope:

Thanks.

[G2B]

There snecksie my precious, yesss they's have shuts down there enginesessss. (probably wrong gollum reference) :D


At least that's what it sounds like. Have you kept heading toward the last known position to get a visual? Have you manned the Phones yourself to try locating em, sometimes sonar guy gets distracted listening to Dolphins and starts dreaming about mermaids :yep:

[gollum65]

It's sort of the right Gollum reference. Took name from the Led Zep song, and they took it from LoTR. :D

No, I haven't tried manning the phones myself, and to be honest I'm not exactly sure how to do that. Guess I got more reading to do. :yep:

[Ducimus]

. I can turn my boat to the direction of the contact and head towards him, but before I ever get to within visual range or close enough to shoot, my sonar guy looses him and I have no idea where he is or how to reacquire the target.

Don't turn towards where he is, but where he will be in the future.

(yeah i know, i'm probably being Captain Obvious here. :O: )


edit:

No, I haven't tried manning the phones myself, and to be honest I'm not exactly sure how to do that

Should be a button on the orders bar or a hotkey somewhere (check the F1 help menu) . Generally, you can hear much farther with the hydrophone then your soundman can (don't ask me, ask ubi ). Use your Home/END keys to rotate your sound gear, the mouse wheel button will allow you to rotate it in smaller increments for "fine tuning" so to speak.

[G2B]

Click on the sonar to bring up the "toolbar" options first icon on the left should be "go to sonar station"

If you find yourself in the conning tower just click on the sonar station. Oh and watch out for the red buttons behind you, they will fire your torps.

You can also use your mouse pointer to direct the dial by clicking on the dial face, hope that makes sense.

Don't try to find the guy at 180 degrees otherwise your going to be chasing your tail :D

Good Luck

[Captain Vlad]

Also, when you detect a target, don't start chasing him immediately. I usually wait a minute or two, listening, to see which direction he's moving, before planning my intercept. Sometimes I go so far as to stop the boat when I'm doing this.

Also, what kind of time compression are you using when you're chasing a contact? High settings make it very, very easy to lose the enemy.

[gollum65]

Thanks guys. I think that's my problem is I don't know what direction the contact is heading in, so I do end up chasing my tail so to speak. I think part of the problem is on my nav map the contacts aren't showing up. All I'm seeing is a line drawn to where the contact was last observed.

And I always go to 1x time compression if it was faster when the contact was made, and I will usually stop the boat to try to figure out where to go to track the target.

I'll give this mission another run today and let you guys know what happens. Thanks again for the help.

[kvbrock82]

When you click the target on the map it should tell you the general direction which the ship is going. If it says N, then plan a course of intercept north of the target. Never head directly to a target because he will be long gone by the time you get there!

[R4222]

Try raiding an enemy harbour at night. Rabual in the North Solmens is a favourite.

Also you have a pinch point between the islands which is a funnel for traffic.

[Nikeleye]

Thanks guys. I think that's my problem is I don't know what direction the contact is heading in, so I do end up chasing my tail so to speak. I think part of the problem is on my nav map the contacts aren't showing up. All I'm seeing is a line drawn to where the contact was last observed.

And I always go to 1x time compression if it was faster when the contact was made, and I will usually stop the boat to try to figure out where to go to track the target.

I'll give this mission another run today and let you guys know what happens. Thanks again for the help.

Even with Map Contacts turned 'On' in the realism settings, sonar-only contacts won't display on the map as a clickable square showing speed, course, etc, until you have another form of detection - be it RADAR, or a visual.

I would suggest, and this is just my humble opinion, to keep your speed to Ahead Standard (8/9kts surfaced in most boats I think) when you pick-up the contact. If you're surfaced and you get a sonar contact, get to periscope depth or 90ft if there's enemy air cover, and head to your nav map. Sonar works much, much better underwater in my experience (as it should!).

Then follow the black line to the end, that's where your sonarman is saying he can hear the propellor of the contact. Using the pencil tool, place a mark on it. At the same time you do this, have the stopwatch out (there's a button to show/hide it on the map toolbar) and start the timer by clicking the protruding button on top of it as you place the mark. Now keep watching the sonar as it updates, if the contact's close enough it'll be a smooth movement or if its a distant contact it might jump every few seconds. I put another mark on it every minute until 3 minutes, but you could do anything... every time it updates, every 30 seconds, anything. It's purely to find out the contact's course. Making sure you have the tool helper (it's that compass looking thing above the ruler and pencil) 'open', use the ruler and draw a line through the marks of your contact, getting as close to the middle of all of them as you can - it's a rough science! Look at the course the ruler shows you on the circle marker you should have at your mouse pointer (the tool helper), remember this, then zoom out a bit and extend that course until it's long enough that you're happy you can intercept in that distance. Before you exit everything, when the stopwatch says 3 minutes, mark the contact again, and take a measurement from the start to that specific mark. Take 2 tenths off that measurement (1100yds becomes 11, 12500yds becomes 12.5, etc), and that's a rough average of the contacts speed.

Now you know, approximately, the target's course and speed. If it were me i'd be surfacing and intercepting as best I could at that point.

RockinRobbins' videos can show you everything i've said much better, and much more than that (he taught me most everything I know without ever speaking to me, heh!), but I hope it's helped at least a little!

[gollum65]

When you click the target on the map it should tell you the general direction which the ship is going. If it says N, then plan a course of intercept north of the target. Never head directly to a target because he will be long gone by the time you get there!

Yeah, but that's my problem. Contacts aren't showing up on any of my maps even though the option not to map them is supposedly turned off. All I see on my maps is my ship, my charted course, and if there's a target a line or 2 going out to infinity. I have no idea how far a target is so I can't go find it.

For example, I was again sailing from Pearl to Honshu when my sonar guy reported a merchant contact SE of Midway. So I stopped, used the hydrophone to determine that the contact was apparently moving from SW to NE and set a course to try to intercept it. I had the sonar constantly tracking the target and sending it's range and bearing to the TDC (I think?). When the position keeper range got down to under 200 I came up to periscope depth and looked around, but there was nothing there. After trying to look and turn the boat in multiple directions to try to spot the target (it happened to be at night) I finally asked the sonar guy for a range to target and lo and behold it was over 11,000 (yards I assume?). So while my sonar was saying it was 11,000+, my TDC was saying it was 150. And without any targets showing up on my maps I can't see how I can even find a target much less plot an intercept course and go after it.

I can post some screenshots if you guys want. I hope someone can figure out what's going on because it's got me frustrated. I know it can't be this hard can it?

[Nikeleye]

So while my sonar was saying it was 11,000+, my TDC was saying it was 150.

The TDC is only as good as the information given to it.

It will only work if to a pretty accurate level you give it your targets speed, angle on bow, range, and bearing - ideally in that order.

It sounds to me as if you only gave it the information from the sonar, which would be bearing and, possibly, range. Ranging with the sonar is what you might know as 'pinging', or 'active sonar'. I prefer to do this manually, and be aware it has limits. Currently in December '42 in my Salmon my active sonar only gives decent range readings out to 4500yds. In most weather that's visual range.

The way you do it is thus:-

Press H or click on the toolbars to go to the Sonar station. Jack your speakers/headphones up on volume. Using the mouse wheel or the Home and End keys, you'll turn the wheel and change what bearing you're "listening" to. When you find the contact, refine it, by finely adjusting the bearing to where the sound is loudest. This is your contact bearing. Looking at the sonar panel, you now want to click the button on the bottom left, you'll know if it's the correct one as you'll hear your boat send out a ping and the dial on the left will start moving. If the target is within your active sonar's range you'll see the dial stop at a specific range and hear a rebounded 'pong'.

Then press the button to the right of the ping button, and also the one on the notepad top left, which will send both range and bearing to the TDC. You'll want the TDC to have been on/running with your targets speed and angle on bow already calculated before you send this information however, or it'll fail completely to give you an accurate solution (my previous post is a rough way of getting speed, though i'd suggest using radar or visual instead wherever you can as it's much more accurate).

Angle on Bow isn't too hard. But I try to update and refine it as much as I can when I establish visual contact. It's a simple thing to work out once you have the target and the targets course plotted on your map from either SONAR, RADAR, or visual. Simply take the protractor tool, make the first 'arrow' on the targets course a ways ahead of it, then the angle mark on the target itself, and the final arrow on your fleetboat. Read the angle and in the periscope station enter it into the tool and send to TDC. Like I said however, try to refine this as you get closer and get more accurate readings.

So, to sum up, I quote the guru of all things submarinal:-

1. Turn on PK
2. Calculate speed and enter it. Why? It takes the longest.
3. Enter the AoB. Why? You found the target course when you calculated the speed. It's available with no delay.
4. Take range/bearing. Your aiming point is already traveling at the same course and speed as your target. All you need to do to put it dead center is that range/bearing position. INSTANTLY when that point is plotted it begins moving at the speed and on the course you've told it to go. It stays exactly on the target.

P.S. - Don't EVER use active sonar on a warship or near a convoy with escorts. It's like sticking a big flag out of the ocean saying "Here I am!" and waving it for all and sundry to see.

[Admiral8Q]

Try TMO 2.0 My first and second contacts were invasion forces on their way to Luzon. :woot:

[Armistead]

Did you get contacts on. Remember in career mode you must set your options using the radio in the office to the left of the desk.

[Nikeleye]

As I said above, with sonar contacts you won't get the clickable contact box no matter what your realism setting. :)

[ancient46]

Forget Pearl, Start in the Manila/Freemantle flotilla and stay there. Fuel was a priority for Japan and major fuel producers were places like Balakpapan and Tarakan Island.

[I'm goin' down]

TMO 2.0 is a TALL order to begin with. The destroyers are quite tenacious and deadly, plus Ducimus made the subs with thinner skins. I recommend something easier.

E.g., I have been repeatedly playing an agent insertion mission on the Japanese mainland, and cannot break though a convoy which is blocking the route. Its destroyer escorts find me every time, and at all angles, depths, etc. I finally decided to skip the convoy and attack a merchant that crossed its course, heading in my direction. I forgot to submerge, but the merchant was still aways off when the convoy's destroryers found me once again, and proceeded to sink my boat for the upteenth and final time. I finally called it quits. I never got shots off. It was too dark to see anything and I could not get close enough to get a fix with my night periscope.

l

[gollum65]

Thanks for the tips guys. I'll keep working on it. BTW, what's TMO 2.0?

[I'm goin' down]

I do not know if you play with mods. There are a lot out there. Some change one detail of the stock game (i.e. Webster's smaller rain drops). Others are mega mods. They change the game entirely-the environmnet, the sub interiors, the deck guns, etc. One is Fall of the Rising Sun ("FOTRS"). Another is Trigger Maru Overhauled ("TMO"). TMO is constantly tweaked by its creator, Ducimus, who strives for as much realism as the game permits without losing its gaming feel. TMO2.0 is the most recent version. I like it because it is hard, really hard.

If you visit to the mod forum, there is sticky by Neal Stevens that lays out many of the various mods, although it is not the whole list. Mods are constantly be updated, etc. While in the forum look around and get a feel for what is posted there.

The Skippers' bag of tricks thread in the main forum of SH4 (the one we are in now) by the ever delightful Rockin Robbins contains many important tutorials which you ought to read if you are going to get proficient at manual targeting. At a minimum you need to know about the 90 degree broadside attack (the Dick O'Kane methed). Also read Hitman's tutorial on manual targeting at 100 percent realism to understand the concept of speed, range, and aspect ratio (very crucial) on a moving target. Since your boat can be moving during an attack run, the US boats use onboard computers called the torpedo data computers (TDCs) whiich calculate the firing angle of the torpedoes, so they run to the target and not off into the wild blue yonder. For a TDC to function properly, a captain is required to accurately input the target's speed, range (which includes its aspect ratio) and Angle on bow (AoB). If you perform an O'Kane attack, the TDC is turned off and is not used, although you do input target speed on the Attack Dial on the upper right of the screen. The TDC screen is the one on the left with the two ship dials on it. The other screen on the left is the TBT screen (Torpedo Bearing Tool), where you arm, set the speed and offset angle of the your torpedoes.

You need to do a lot of reading to address all of the issues in this game.. Some mods are eye candy (i.e. conning tower emblems, better uniforms), some are improvements over the stock game (FOTRS and TMO and Run Silent Run Deep Campaign (RSRDC)), some are fun (the Great White Shark mod) and some are downright brilliamt (the Easy Aob mod, MOBO (a program not a mod) and the Solution Solver (a program and not a mod.), just to name a few. Some of the forum members are simply brilliant.

If you do not know how to install mods, someone here will help. (Note the number of mods I have downloaded [some more than one time]. I figure the true number is around 100. I only use about 10 when I play TMO 2.0 because many are already modded into it.

Now that you are thoroughly confused, welcome aboard. If you get stuck send me a PM. Soon you will talkiing like a bona fide WW2 captain.

[McHibbins]

Don´t forget RFB 2.0 :)

[I'm goin' down]

Before I played FOTRS and TMO, I played RFB + RSRDC. They all have thier afficiandos.

[gollum65]

Thanks for the mod explanation. I haven't used any yet. I think I better learn how to actually find and sink an enemy ship first. :D

[Admiral8Q]

Thanks for the mod explanation. I haven't used any yet. I think I better learn how to actually find and sink an enemy ship first. :D
I'd recommend RFB mod first then. TMO is very difficult.

[Capt. Morgan]

Thanks guys. I think that's my problem is I don't know what direction the contact is heading ...

If you are picking up the sound contact by listening yourself, no contact line will show on the map until your stone-deaf sonar man can hear it too. So you need to get closer.

Point the bow of your boat directly at the contact, then monitor the sonar yourself to determine if the contact drifts left or right of zero degrees.

That will indicate his general direction of travel relative to you. If he doesn't drift either way, then he's either heading straight towards or away from you.

Now that you have some idea of his course; surface, point the bow of your boat 10 degrees ahead of his last bearing and travel in a straight line at flank speed for 10 miles (use your maptools to measure this).

Once there, submerge and find him again on sonar. Repeat until you get a visual contact (that's usually within 2-3 hops).

Happy hunting:arrgh!:

[gollum65]

If you are picking up the sound contact by listening yourself, no contact line will show on the map until your stone-deaf sonar man can hear it too. So you need to get closer.

Point the bow of your boat directly at the contact, then monitor the sonar yourself to determine if the contact drifts left or right of zero degrees.

That will indicate his general direction of travel relative to you. If he doesn't drift either way, then he's either heading straight towards or away from you.

Now that you have some idea of his course; surface, point the bow of your boat 10 degrees ahead of his last bearing and travel in a straight line at flank speed for 10 miles (use your maptools to measure this).

Once there, submerge and find him again on sonar. Repeat until you get a visual contact (that's usually within 2-3 hops).

Happy hunting:arrgh!:

I'll try that. Thanks.

[ancient46]

Here is a copy of the Japanese shipping routes in WW2
http://home.comcast.net/~ancient25/Files/Shjpping Routes.jpg (http://home.comcast.net/%7Eancient25/Files/Shjpping%20Routes.jpg)

[gollum65]

Here is a copy of the Japanese shipping routes in WW2
http://home.comcast.net/~ancient25/Files/Shjpping Routes.jpg (http://home.comcast.net/%7Eancient25/Files/Shjpping%20Routes.jpg)

Assuming the game modeled the routes correctly that's very helpful. Thanks.

[raymond6751]

Sooner or later you are going to be the target. When the enemy destroyers start after you,go as deep and slow as you can. Do it in silent running to avoid noise.

I always plan my escape route before attacking, to avoid shallows and land. I also keep my rudder 5-10 degrees turn in either direction. The enemy have trouble pinpointing a turning sub.

When DC drop on you, go to full speed to get out from under, then turn. If you turn first, you slow down.

If the DD is coming right for you but hasn't dropped yet, do a 90 degree turn before he drops, but don't go full speed or you will be heard.

[gollum65]

Just wanted to say thanks to Capt. Morgan (the forum user, not the drink) I was able to find, track, catch, and sink my first merchant! Although it was my deck guns that took her down as my torps missed but a kill is a kill. Maybe there's hope for me yet. :yeah:

[Capt. Morgan]

Cheers! And congratulations on the victory:salute:

Hunting and stalking is the part of the game I like the most. BTW, recommend you keep the game un-modded until you get the basics settled. Check out the "Skippers Bag Of Tricks" thread (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=146795) for advice on everything.


Here is a copy of the Japanese shipping routes in WW2
http://home.comcast.net/~ancient25/Files/Shjpping Routes.jpg (http://home.comcast.net/%7Eancient25/Files/Shjpping%20Routes.jpg)

That has to be one of the best maps I've seen of the shipping routes.

[gollum65]

Yeah, the only mod I've used so far is the one that turns the toolbar buttons green when they're in use. I'd like to use the one that stops the nav map scrolling but the file isn't available anymore.

[I'm goin' down]

are you using manual targeting?

[gollum65]

are you using manual targeting?

I'm having enough trouble using automatic targeting so no. :D

[I'm goin' down]

set up for a broadside at 500-1,000 yds. lock on the target with the L key. When the light on the torpedos firing button turns green, fire. Firing at longer range and at angles decreases your chances, especially when you are just starting out.

[gollum65]

Just an update... I'm getting better and finding and sinking vessels, but for the most part I'm doing so with my deck guns. My torpedoes miss almost every time and I'm not sure why, although I do have an idea. Even if I have green triangles when I fire (using auto targeting) they still usually miss.

What I think the problem is that my sonar, and presumably my targeting system is not coming up with solutions for targets I'm looking at in the scopes. For example the other day I found a group of 3 freighters. I went after the closest one to me first, and got close enough that I could see the skipper's face at the helm and the guys firing hand held weapons at me. Yet my targeting system said the target I was getting ready to fire at was over 10,000 yards (I assume it's in yards??) away so of course when I fired at the ship I was looking at I missed. How can you ensure you're looking at and targeting the same ship when you fire?

[Raven79]

On your left TDC display there's a red "position keeper" button. Always turn it off while locking a new target in, then back on.
Also, don't try firing closer than 500y. The torps get activated at about 350y away and as long as they're not there yet, will just run straight forward without course.
Then there is the Q key. He's your special friend, as he opens the torp tubes. Do that before even locking in a target to save time later, between "fire tube 1" to "torpedo in the water". These mere seconds can make you miss.
If you're doing all that, I'm at a loss here as to why you should keep missing.

Oh I forgot, you should set the torpedo depth early in the way to around 13ft for anything big, to 5 for smaller vessels like DDs, so they don't run under your target. Contact detonator only.

[gollum65]

On your left TDC display there's a red "position keeper" button. Always turn it off while locking a new target in, then back on.
Also, don't try firing closer than 500y. The torps get activated at about 350y away and as long as they're not there yet, will just run straight forward without course.
Then there is the Q key. He's your special friend, as he opens the torp tubes. Do that before even locking in a target to save time later, between "fire tube 1" to "torpedo in the water". These mere seconds can make you miss.
If you're doing all that, I'm at a loss here as to why you should keep missing.

Oh I forgot, you should set the torpedo depth early in the way to around 13ft for anything big, to 5 for smaller vessels like DDs, so they don't run under your target. Contact detonator only.


Thanks. Wasn't actually doing any of that regularly, especially opening the tube doors. I'll go try these suggestions.

[gollum65]

Thanks again Raven. Your suggestions worked great! :D

[green_abobo]

i'll add my 2 cents. this works for both factions.

submerged, i manually listen at the hydrophone station. then i go to my trusty nav. map and mark an "x" where the hydrophone line extends.

then i wait a minute or three and repeat.

it should give me a series of x's... which i can then use the ruler to trace a rough guesstimate of their projected course, and then i plot an intercept accordingly.

this only works if you do in fact have hydrophone lines available to state the obvious.

also don't even bother "chasing" a contact that is moving away at a high screw rate. especially if it's a warship.

the only way you may catch up to them is traveling flank speed surfaced,and that may not be very good for the health of your boat and crew. especially during daylight hours and calm seas.

if it's slow or medium screws (merchant) and closing or crossing,you stand a better chance of intercepting.

good luck to you and your crew sir.

[Uboatman]

Currently patrolling 20nm NNE of Saipan, not come across any traffic except for aircraft radar contacts.

I know not to expect contact reports from TMO2.0 till later in the game but would be great to get some guidance on where to go hunting.

Am based out of Pearl, had a 4 day patrol in the Marshalls as my mission, down to 70% fuel now. Don't want to go back with a full torp load:oops: