Hydrophone Tracker v1.1b???????

[wolf_288]

Hi
Can Hydrophone Tracker v1.1b´be used inside the game ???

[Carrollsue]

Man, it works great outside the games but don’t have a clue how to get it inside. Would love to see something..anything…LOL:D

[Pisces]

Didn't there come a pdf with that application? (well it did in version 1.0 ) It should show how you can do it with the drawing tools on the map.

[EDIT] Nevermind the version, I just checked the one and only available version in the upload section, and it has the PDF in it.

[Rockin Robbins]

OK, here's the deal. Although the description says Hydrophone Tracker 1.0, gutted updated it to Hydrophone Tracker 1.1b, which you will get when you download the zip file, along with gutted's readme and a fabulous PDF by another author, sorry I don't remember his name and don't have it in front of me.

The PDF file takes you by the hand and tells you step by step without skipping any step how the technique works and why. It really is a great example that deserves imitation.

Actually this whole thing, gutted's tool and the technique have flown under the radar and never got the attention they deserve. I'm going out to change that. What it needs is a good cheerleader and I'm game. That quality work deserves some recognition and a whole bunch of people who understand and use it.

Sorry wolf, I didn't answer your question. Hydrophone Tracker is a utility program that runs outside SH4. But you can do everything it does with the nav map inside the game. The PDF file explains how to do that.

I'm going to pay some attention to this thing in the Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks thread too.

[Pisces]

OK, here's the deal. Although the description says Hydrophone Tracker 1.0, gutted updated it to Hydrophone Tracker 1.1b, which you will get when you download the zip file, along with gutted's readme and a fabulous PDF by another author, sorry I don't remember his name and don't have it in front of me.
...jerm138, it's on the first page. :up:

[Rockin Robbins]

jerm138's instructions are a model of clarity and completeness. I believe that the vast majority of people who attempted to learn by them would be successful. But he better watch out. greyrider thought it up first and published in 1967.:D

[razark]

Congrats on the 5000th post, RR.

I remember those instructions, even though I haven't looked at them in a long time. Clear explanation of the procedure.

[Rockin Robbins]

I need a bit of time to straighten out a video card problem. My new EVGA 250 is acting up and needs to be RMA'd. There's a hitch in the RMA process as the support number they gave me is not being accepted by their RMA application.

What I plan on doing is an instructional video for this TMA procedure and coming up with a name (there MUST be one) for the procedure itself. I'd prefer to use actual name the US Navy uses, so I'll be asking for help on that one.

Watch for a post of the contents of the PDF in Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks thread, along with links to the Hydrophone Tracker in the first post of that thread.

Whatever its name is, this method deserves some popularity! The key is to teach it clearly and jerm138 has done a masterful job of that. All that is required is a little cheerleading. That's where I come in!:D

[Pisces]

For myself I simply call it the 4-bearing method but that may not cover every part of it. Because it says nothing about being in 2 points of view.

[Rockin Robbins]

I'm sure this is an official technique with a real name in the US Navy. I don't want to make up a name to make it look like I or anyone else around here came up with some brand new idea our Navy hadn't thought of. Giving credit where it is due is important.

Local credit IS due to gutted for his Hydrophone Tracker because it is an original piece of work. And it is due for jerm138's instructions because they are his own construction and wording.

As an editor or popularizer, the worst possible sin is to remove authorship from the work. You can do that even leaving the original author's name on it by changing it so much that the soul of the writing no longer belongs to him. Remove the name or remove the work itself, either way you have powerfully demotivated the people who are responsible for the real success. Should be a capital offense!

[Carrollsue]

OK, here's the deal. Although the description says Hydrophone Tracker 1.0, gutted updated it to Hydrophone Tracker 1.1b, which you will get when you download the zip file, along with gutted's readme and a fabulous PDF by another author, sorry I don't remember his name and don't have it in front of me.

The PDF file takes you by the hand and tells you step by step without skipping any step how the technique works and why. It really is a great example that deserves imitation.

Actually this whole thing, gutted's tool and the technique have flown under the radar and never got the attention they deserve. I'm going out to change that. What it needs is a good cheerleader and I'm game. That quality work deserves some recognition and a whole bunch of people who understand and use it.

Sorry wolf, I didn't answer your question. Hydrophone Tracker is a utility program that runs outside SH4. But you can do everything it does with the nav map inside the game. The PDF file explains how to do that.

I'm going to pay some attention to this thing in the Sub Skipper's Bag of Tricks thread too.

I could not agree more and I’m in there to give those people who take the time, only they know how much, to give this community some of the BEST mod’s I have ever seen or use. Thank you all. Now that said I have read the Pdf files and yes it a great presentation of institutional information on “How to” But I sure would love it to work inside.

[Rockin Robbins]

And HOW! But I don't know how you could make it work inside without hacking executable code and going beyond the permissible bounds for a legitimate mod. If it can be done then GREAT!

[gutted]

I see you still have your pom-pom's RR. :D

I actually made a version of the hydrophone tracker that worked while moving It was based off of an example i found in an old manual. It actually calculated it more accurately than the hand drawn example LOL.

However it was just not pratical to use in the close listening ranges for 1940 era subs. It was meant for cold-war era subs i think. By the time you'd solve the problem the target was already past you. Needed to be done from further away and with a sub that could move faster underwater.

[gutted]

I still have a screenshot of that test version. Don't know if i still have the code for it though.

http://img30.imageshack.us/img30/6855/wtfmobo.png


and the mobo example i pulled it from (with some doodles on it):
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/3482/mobo.png

[Diopos]

Sure looks like good work there! And based on the real navigational method too! :up::up:

Regardless of the problem of the time needed to collect the data (which would be a problem for a real WW2 skipper too) I really believe that including it as a "tool" would be beneficial. (Not only limited to hydrophone work).

The method is not post WW2. It is included in the official 1941 US Navy Maneuvering Board Manual.:yep: (under Case XI I think, which BTW could be a nice name for the method/software if included in the game :hmmm: ...)

.

[Rockin Robbins]

[checking out USN 1941 Maneuvering Board Manual........]
Sure would be nice to come up with a better name than Case XI, but.......USN 1941 Maneuvering Board Manual Case XI it clearly is. We draw it differently on the nav map and in the Hydrophone tracker but it is the identical solution.

Diopos, you've just decided the name of the procedure. Hydrophone Tracker will retain its own name...:D
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/captain_obvious.jpg

If no one has any objections I'll get to work as much as possible without being able to run SH4 until my video card comes back from RMA. Just got approval this morning. Tonight I'm switching to some ancient card I even forgot I had and hope to be able to run Windows afterwards... Wish me luck.

And yes, gutted, my pom-poms are out and ready! You guys work too hard not to have any recognition. Just look at the worthless 8010 thread with 6,461 reads so far compared with 361 for this one of tremendous value. If I can be part of evening the score and garnering some attention to an elegant, totally passive method that works, I'll work those pom-poms to death.
http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa293/RockinRobbins13/smileys/happy-091.gif

[Diopos]

...
Diopos, you've just decided the name of the procedure. Hydrophone Tracker will retain its own name...:D
...

:wah:
:rotfl2:


...
If I can be part of evening the score and garnering some attention to an elegant, totally passive method that works, I'll work those pom-poms to death.


Passive? Pom-Poms? Aren't we getting a bit kinky around here? :hmmm:

:DL

Seriously now, it is a worthy project.

:up:

.

[gutted]

And yes, gutted, my pom-poms are out and ready! You guys work too hard not to have any recognition.

We dont do it for recognition.

When we encounter a problem in life.. we solve it, share it, then move on to something else.

[Rockin Robbins]

I understand that gutted. You aren't the slightest bit interested in self-promotion and that is as it should be. Let's call it division of labor.

Those who like to solve problems see the work as done when a problem is solved. Problems can be difficult and it's important to move on to the next one.

But in order for the solution to be good for anything in a practical sense it's important that people actually use the solution developed by that practical guy who's working on something else now.

That's where the pom-poms come in. You don't waste your time and I get to do what I do best while giving you the credit you earned. I know you don't care much about the credit but trying to steal it would result in quick reaction from you (all you'd have to do is ask one simple question about how it was done and I'd be done!). And you wouldn't release any more solutions knowing that someone else would grab the credit. I give you the credit because it's the right thing to do.

So look at me as the garbage man. You produce the garbage. I take it away, dress it up, wave those pom-poms and get people to eat it with a smile.:D

Dick O'Kane and John P Cromwell were game changers for SH4 players. Neither one of them would have seen the light of day without the help of gutted and aaronblood, along with Nisgeis and a long list of others.

I'm just PT Barnum. He didn't tame lions, train elephants, walk high wires, swing on the trapeze or get shot out of a cannon. He brought those who did in front of the world making them and us richer for it. Funny how clueless our pal greyrider was about what I do. His claims to the contrary just killed his credibility.

[Diopos]

Good work must be recognised.
Good intentions must be acknowledged.
This has nothing to do with the person producing the work or the idea.
This has enerything to do with the people or community which "receives" it. If someone offers you a glass of water in the desert, the least you can do is say "thank you". No?

.

[Rockin Robbins]

Well, that's the problem. There's no must to it. Much good work is forgotten before it is completed, doing no good for anyone. The doer is off doing something else and the work just dies. Maybe it is discovered later, but not always.

Don't forget that germ138 posted his instructions back in January, Hydrophone Tracker was posted April 5, this thread started June 10 and kind of languished until this month. I'm really late to the party, only noticing this thing several days ago while looking for an illustration of the difference between greyrider's 8010 garbage and a real targeting procedure.

It was a really close thing that this great technique could have had a dozen posts and been completely forgotten and used by no one.

So, to paraphrase Diopos:

Good work will only be recognized if someone recognizes that it is significant and popularizes it.

Good intentions will only be recognized by those aware that they exist.

Making sure that happens has nothing to do with making the person producing the work or idea "famous" or "high status." It is simply the right thing to do for the benefit of all.

Like it or not, in spite of Subsim SH4 forum's apparent state of good health, SH4 IS a desert, abandoned completely by the company who produced it and superceded by its pretender successor, which although it has some interesting features, has abandoned the very principle of a simulation. SH4 remains the premier submarine simulator in the world.

Welcome to the desert.

[Diopos]

...
Welcome to the desert.

Care for a drink?

:D

.

[Diopos]

Here are three ideas.

A. On the implementation of the method: To "collect" bearings #4, #5 and #6 you don't need a change of course and speed. You need to change your speed vector. One way of doing that, I think, is by maintaining you original course and changing your speed only. (Verify it please). An option the skipper must be aware of!

B. On the design of the method: Trying to implement the method on a maneuvering board I ran into the problem of the required time to conclude all of the required steps. I was sampling the bearings at a 12 minute intervals. The mercie crossed my "T" while I was still doing my geometry! :DL. This raises the possibility of including adjastable time steps between observations. There are instances where the bearings are adequately "resolved" from the previous ones so you can "speed up" data collection without degrading the quality of the solution. I think that the "official" method allows for it, too.

C. On the name of the method: :D:D:D. Bearing Tracker, Bearings Only Solver, Gutted's 6-Bearing Solver, etc,only to point out that the method is not somehow limited to hydrophone-work only.


.

[Rockin Robbins]

I'd like to avoid the maneuvering board altogether, not because it doesn't work but because just about nobody understands the thing, while they have all worked with the nav map, where the solution works out just as well.

This way they can have two solutions working at the same time: the Hydrophone Tracker and plot. They'll serve as verification for each other. Because there is no maneuvering board in the game and because people who have learned to operate a quite difficult simulator will still resist something new, especially if it involves printing mobo charts and working out solutions with pen, paper and drawing tools they don't have.

To keep the solution as quickly solved as possible and continue to pass the credit around as much as possible I'd like to keep the four bearing method and use jerm138's procedure with as little change (and with his approval for any necessary changes) as possible.

Gotta go! I'll check in later!:up:

[Pisces]

Here are three ideas.

A. On the implementation of the method: To "collect" bearings #4, #5 and #6 you don't need a change of course and speed. You need to change your speed vector. One way of doing that, I think, is by maintaining you original course and changing your speed only. (Verify it please). An option the skipper must be aware of!Theoretically correct, but it may not make enough of a difference to notice the change in relative motion (direction aswel as magnitude). If your change in speed is somewhat along the bearing then it won't show. (like in a position behind or infront)

B. On the design of the method: Trying to implement the method on a maneuvering board I ran into the problem of the required time to conclude all of the required steps. I was sampling the bearings at a 12 minute intervals. The mercie crossed my "T" while I was still doing my geometry! :DL. This raises the possibility of including adjastable time steps between observations. There are instances where the bearings are adequately "resolved" from the previous ones so you can "speed up" data collection without degrading the quality of the solution. I think that the "official" method allows for it, too.The time periods are of arbitray duration, as long as they kept equal throughout (each set of 3 bearings). The bearings need to be sufficiently apart to not be drowned in measurement inaccuracy of 1 degree. 4 degrees between bearings with an uncertainty of 1 degree wide won't do. You can use a short time period initially to get a general indication of direction. But then need to use longer periods to gain accuracy. Doubling the time period allows you to re-use the measured bearings of the earlier crude attempt. Putting timestamps on the in-game map is not really possible, therefore a paper print maneuvering-board is more usefull here.

How quickly you close with the target depends alot on ownship course you choose, or really the resulting relative motion. The latter being something you don't know yet and actually are trying to find out. If the relative motion happends to be pointed roughly along the bearing then you close. If it is roughly perpendicular then you only drift the bearing with minimal range change. Knowing the target course early because you were close to motionless during the first 3 bearings helps alot here. But thinking you have to get it all done before the T-party ( ;) ) has started is rushing it imho. You can't even assume from the beginning that it was on a closing approach. You can only know that after the 3rd bearing is laid out on the map and it shows an increased bearing drift compared to the first 2 bearings. To conclude, it's tricky to determine where to go for the second leg, if you don't know where he is going. A lagging course by definition avoids a collision, and creates quickly changing bearings (eventually) but forces you to do an end-around. A leading course has the opposite features. I'd like to know where he is going first, before worrying about being in the right attack position. I expect the end-around maneuver as a given.

[Diopos]

...
The bearings need to be sufficiently apart to not be drowned in measurement inaccuracy of 1 degree. 4 degrees between bearings with an uncertainty of 1 degree wide won't do.
...


So what do you think would be an "adequate minimum difference" in consequent bearing measurements? About 7° maybe?

.

[Pisces]

So what do you think would be an "adequate minimum difference" in consequent bearing measurements? About 7° maybe?

.Yes, I usually let it drift 6 or 7 degrees between taking bearing 1 and 2. Then as many minutes as it took later, I take bearing 3 and figure out it's rough course. If I decide to stick with it, then wait double the amount of minutes to take another bearing for a more accurate course.

[Rockin Robbins]

OK, I checked out that old video card and it was......an AGP card.:down: So it looks like I'm going dark for several days. See you when I get back online.

[Rockin Robbins]

I'm still officially dark, working on my wife's laptop. My video card is on vacation in California and at least three days away. This is killing me:wah: