Perverting of Europe continues

[Skybird]

A father and a mother form a couple called parents, right?

Well, you might be surprised to learn that according to a growing influential thinking (or absence of such) in Europe, it is sexist discrimination. In fact children are the product of a neuter entitity called "Elter" (without "n" at the end). Parents (plural) translates into "Eltern" (plural) in German, there is no singular form of the word. This word now gets deleted in official office language, and replaced with a less discriminatory, sexually neutral term.

(German)
http://www.medrum.de/?q=content/mutter-wird-amtlich-durch-das-elter-ersetzt


Bern, Switzerland, gets serious in abandoning discrimination

According to a new guideline for the officially binding use of language in Switzerland, the use of the term father and mother falls under description of discriminating terms. According to it, children do not have a father and a mother anymore, but a neuter as cause for their existence, named "das Elter (grammar: neutral form).

Instead of "father" or "mother" it should be written "der Elternteil" (one parent) or "das Elter" (instead of "Eltern/parents"). The guideline is binding for official publications, says Isabel Kamber, deputy chief of the Central Language Service, Section German, of the Federal Office of the Chancellor of Switzerland, reports the Swiss newspaper BLICK.

With this the politically responsible in Bern follow the draft proposal 12267 in the committe for the equality of chances between females and males (of the EU council), which is to fight in nations against terms like the concept of "mother" in order to acchieve gender-equality.

Such a lingustic distortion would also ease the gaining of parenthood by homosexual couples. A child whose social parents would be two lesbian women, then would not have a mother and a stepmother, but two "Elter": Elter 1 and Elter 2. Consequently, grandmother and grandfather should be abandoned as well. It would be grand-elter 1 and grandelter 2, or better: grand-elter 1.1 and grandelter 1.2 and grandelter 2.1 and grandelter 2.2. that also would be a solution friendly towards easier digitisation, which could be easily and flexibly adopted to patchworks.


More on it: "fight against the term "mother" as a sexist stereotype" (no kidding)

(German)
http://www.medrum.de/?q=content/kampf-gegen-den-mutterbegriff-als-sexistischem-stereotyp

The european council discusses a draft proposal , that amongst others things recommends to battle against the use of the term "mother", because it would prevent gender-equality.

The gender-ideology aims at the dissolving of social/communal structures and role types. In the media women would be displayed too much as mothers and wifes. with the draft proposal 12267 in the commission for euqlaity between females and males the european council therefore wants to fight against the use of terms like "mother". "Mother", they claim, is a sexist stereotype that would push women into a traditional role. nations now should be called to fight against such sexist stereotypes in general. The media should play an important role here. They should abandon the use of sexist stereotypes. For this, a whole set of programs is planned, like education porgrams for people working in the media world, and the creation of expert offices that shoudl advise the media.

For this goal, especially the European Women's Lobby EWL, an NGO, is fighting.

Reporter for the proposal draft is Doris Stump from Switzerland.

The document is included in the appendix (download as pdf).

What a madness. This is not harmless, because it is about forming and influencing the terms in which people think - or cannot think anymore. No surprise that once again the Eu is behind it. The gender-streamlining in our modern society is a creeping disease of thought that is haunting us since longer now, but especially the educational sector and the issue of the status of homosexual relations is bitterly fought over. and they will not stop it before they have successfully destroyed everything.

Another example: a row in Hamburg over claimed politically incorrect schoolbooks. I had seen it on TV in Spiegel TV, as that article claims, but the source where the above was taken from refers to just that.

(German)
http://www.medrum.de/?q=content/gender-aufruhr-hamburg

Scaring it is how much all this reminds of Newspeak in George Orwell's 1984.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newspeak


(...)
The basic idea behind Newspeak is to remove all shades of meaning from language, leaving simple dichotomies (pleasure and pain, happiness and sadness, goodthink and crimethink) which reinforce the total dominance of the State.
(...)
To control thought

“ By 2050—earlier, probably—all real knowledge of Oldspeak will have disappeared. The whole literature of the past will have been destroyed. Chaucer, Shakespeare, Milton, Byron—they'll exist only in Newspeak versions, not merely changed into something different, but actually contradictory of what they used to be. Even the literature of the Party will change. Even the slogans will change. How could you have a slogan like "freedom is slavery" when the concept of freedom has been abolished? The whole climate of thought will be different. In fact there will be no thought, as we understand it now. Orthodoxy means not thinking—not needing to think. Orthodoxy is unconsciousness.”

The underlying theory of Newspeak is that if something can't be said, then it is much more difficult to think it. (See Sapir–Whorf hypothesis.) There is substantial argument in favour of this notion, in that most humans think by carrying on a dialogue in their heads. They tend to subvocalize their thoughts as they form them and manipulate them; most thought is actually a dialogue with oneself.

What surprises me a bit is that it is the conservative Swiss forming the spearhead here. Or is it no surprise at all - and left-leaning idiots form such idiotic policies in an attempt to enforce the Swiss becoming a bit less "typically Swiss"? And then maybe it is no surprise that the Swiss somtimes strike back, like in that public vote banning the building of more mosques. The same group, btw, in these days is setting up another vote on a proposal that all foreign emigrants who break the law and become criminal and/or social parasites, will be sent back to their countries of origin. The - surprise-surprise - left and the socialists tried to prevent this votum by wanting to simply forbid Swiss people to vote. It seems they see some of their election clients going missing in the next national polls, this is the only argument that could come to my mind against this very reasonable proposal to throw out migrants not playing by the rules. I mean when I run a party and somebody misbehaves or uses the opportunity to steal in my house, I kick him out, too. what is there that could be said against doing so? Nothing!

[Skybird]

Oh my - the Brits are at it, too:

http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2008/jan/08013008.html

LONDON, January 30, 2008 (LifeSiteNews.com) - Government guidelines for training school officials to be more sensitive to homosexuality, instruct teachers not to use the terms "mum and dad" when referring to students' parents, and to treat "even casual" use of terms like "gay" as equal to racism.

The guideance was commissioned by the Labour government directly from the homosexual lobby group Stonewall. The document was launched today at a Stonewall conference by Schools Secretary Ed Balls.

Ed Balls said, "Homophobic insults should be viewed as seriously as racism."
"Even casual use of homophobic language in schools can create an atmosphere that isolates young people and can be the forerunner of more serious forms of bullying."

The guidelines say that the word "parents" must replace "mum and dad", and that teachers should educate pupils about civil partnerships and gay adoption rights.

In Britain's current political climate, even young children have been subject to police interventions on accusations of making "racist" or "homophobic" comments. In October 2006, a 14-year-old school girl was arrested by police and detained in a cell for three hours after she asked to be moved into a group of students who spoke English in class. Stott was denounced to police for "racism" by her teachers. In April 2007, a ten-year-old boy was questioned after the boy sent an email calling another boy "gay".

In the "Frequently Asked Questions" section of the guidelines, in answer to the question, "We have to respect cultural and religious differences. Does this mean pupils can be homophobic?" the guidelines specifically state that those with religious views regarded by the homosexual movement as "intolerant" must be silent. "A person can hold whatever views they want but expressing views that denigrate others is unacceptable."

For Stonewall, youth and sexual innocence is no reason for an exemption. To the objection that primary school students are too young to understand issues of homosexuality, the guidelines respond, "Primary-school pupils may be too young to understand their own sexual orientation but it is likely that some primary-school pupils will know someone who is gay."

"Homophobic language is used in primary schools without the pupils necessarily realising what it is that they are saying. Primary schools should respond to homophobic bullying in an age-appropriate way whilst demonstrating that it is not acceptable in school."

For parents who object to their children being exposed to instruction on homosexuality, the guidelines say, "Regardless of their views on gay people or sexual orientation, parents and carers have to understand that schools have a responsibility to keep pupils safe."

Stonewall, perhaps the most successful homosexual activist organization in the world, has been accepted by the Labour government, first under Tony Blair and now by Gordon Brown's leadership, as the leading voice on all issues regarding homosexuality. The guidelines take this a step further in actually allowing the lobby group to author a government document.

Under Tony Blair's "New Labour" government, Section 28 - the law which banned the promotion of homosexuality in schools, was repealed. Since then, homosexual activists have used their influence in Parliament to implement a full roster of training for both teachers and students in normalizing homosexuality.

We need a new great war in Europe, to root out what has become so degenerated and rotten in western, endlessly relativising thinking, a real war that kills and destroys and puts everybody at direct, immediate risk. :doh:

Just to make people come back to their senses that have gone spinning off into Nirvana while being too bored.

On the other hand, our modern degeneration may be a direct late consequence of WWII, so...

Maybe getting an external robot dictatorship on Earth would not be such a bad thing at all...:woot:

[Snestorm]

Welcome to the Left Wing Extremists new program:
Social Idoctrination / Mind Control / Behavior Modification 102.
How to totaly destroy a society, just like Rome and Athens was, from the inside out.

I still use the "old" (real) wordbook.
Gay still means happy.
Queer still means odd / strange / abnormal.
Anybody doesn't like it, tuff.

These people need to be brought down, yesterday.

[DarkFish]

For this goal, especially the European Women's Lobby EWL, an NGO, is fighting.European WOMEN's Lobby? WOMEN?!:o:nope:
Did it never even cross their minds that "women" is a discriminatory term?!:timeout:

[L.T]

IM A DAD, AND DAMN PROUD OF IT!!! MY KIDS ALSO HAVE A MOM!! If anyone say that im not a dad but a parrent i woop there buts....

im a dad and a parrent......G`dammit...next thing will be that im not a person im a human....

in a 100 years my bloodline is Unit XX123XX123XX Human earth inhabitant..

Geeeez...

[Tribesman]

:har::har::har::har::har::har:
Great links.
Leaving aside the factual innacuracies in skybirds rant, it does demonstrate that he will look in the strangest places to find views that match his own.
I do like the way the Canadian anti-abortionists included two classic Daily Mail fabrications in their article.

[Skybird]

IM A DAD, AND DAMN PROUD OF IT!!! MY KIDS ALSO HAVE A MOM!! If anyone say that im not a dad but a parrent i woop there buts....

im a dad and a parrent......G`dammit...next thing will be that im not a person im a human....

in a 100 years my bloodline is Unit XX123XX123XX Human earth inhabitant..

Geeeez...
Bloodline? No. You are ideologic property.

Also, by labelling ylurself "human", you imply that there also is something "non-human", which is a discrimination in itself. You are not human, therefore - you are a nothing. ;) A hypothetical construct serving in the role of ideologic property, so to speak.

[Sailor Steve]

Bloodline? No. You are ideologic property.

Also, by labelling ylurself "human", you imply that there also is something "non-human", which is a discrimination in itself. You are not human, therefore - you are a nothing. ;) A hypothetical construct serving in the role of ideologic property, so to speak.
Of course "property" implies that you belong to someone or something else, so you already don't have free will. How do we end this tyrrany? Or can we even conciev of it?

On the other hand, since electrons are impulses without mass, we don't really even exist. Somehow this all makes sense.

[Tchocky]

Electrons are more like like probability density functions, so we don't even know where it is that we don't exist :/

Regarding the full thread, agreed. Saw the riot police carrying out these directives rather forcefully the other day.

[Jimbuna]

Welcome to the Left Wing Extremists new program:
Social Idoctrination / Mind Control / Behavior Modification 102.
How to totaly destroy a society, just like Rome and Athens was, from the inside out.

I still use the "old" (real) wordbook.
Gay still means happy.
Queer still means odd / strange / abnormal.
Anybody doesn't like it, tuff.

These people need to be brought down, yesterday.

Agreed :yeah:

[Skybird]

I had messed up two of the three links to the German original sources. Corrected.

[Tribesman]

had messed up two of the three links to the German original sources. Corrected.
You mean you linked to fruitcake sites that you found linked on fruitcake sites.
Come on Sky, fessup put up the original hate site you found the articles linked on, because lets face it you ain't exactly going to be frequenting those sites for your views, if anything you would be doing the opposite as in general they are diametyricly opposed to yourself and something you emphaticly reject on all counts......apart from on one issue.:up:
You make it so easy:har:

Regarding the full thread, agreed. Saw the riot police carrying out these directives rather forcefully the other day.
Don't be so cruel, at least give him the chance to explain the stature of any draft proposals that carry no weight even if they are accepted in their draft form without revision.

[Respenus]

Warning: Rant ahead. Apologies in advance.

I'm all for equality, although not at the price of, I won't use the word degeneration for several reasons (one ironic could be that there is nothing left to degenerate, it's all just a giant mush of something which we once called Europe), a certain "stability" and logic in society. It's the same thing as with "Muslims are a race now" concept. In trying to be open and liberal, you come up with laws, which force people to accept a certain view. The rights of homosexuals must be protected, for they are our fellow humans and what they do in the bedroom is no concern of mine, yet to consider banning the word mother and father and giving generic numerical names to family members. Well, I do argue the fact that a name defines a person, but expedience shouldn't be the guide when deciding human relations. I cannot fathom a time when I would not say "Dad, come here", or "Grandma, you must see this" and say "Parent 1.0, please change your location to coordinates X,Y" (Yes, I little overreaction and play on words, no need to use this as an argument against me).

One thing which the EU should definitely get its money fingers out of. The market is one thing, inter-human relations are another. Do you know, that I will no longer be able to physically punish my child if the new family law comes into effect in Slovenia (although, it does give more rights to homosexuals and gives them the right to adopt children; yet one plus does not erase the minus). Beating up children till they're blue should be a punishable offence, yet a slap here and there cannot harm anyone. It's a wonder we have survived for these several hundreds of thousands of years, from peasant to king, considering that we were punishing our children.

I say bring corporeal punishment back to school. Should teach those anarcholiberalists (not in an economical sense) that a place of education is sacred and that we are the blessed (used metaphorically, not in a religious manner) few, who have such access to wealth and prosperity and that it is thanks to education that we have it and we must preserve it. I can see it in my own generation (Anno mirabilis '89) that there is only a slight percentage, if even that, which have the mental capacity sharpened with education who could think for themselves and cooperate in a democracy. With the new generations it is even worse, with social bonds replaced with mobile phones and iPods. I have nothing against technological development, far from it, I keep saying that we are not having enough of it, yet when we were in primary school, we talk to each other when outside. Today, all isolated, all special. I am for individual rights, yet rights are not the same thing as obligations (both must exists or none can), or social relations. If not for anything else, you need to be kind to the kind lady which cleans up the toilets in the school. It doesn't smell and you're lucky not to be doing it.

[Tribesman]

yet to consider banning the word mother and father
Really?
Where?
You didn't swallow that bull did you?

[OneToughHerring]

*Looney thread alert* :har:

[Platapus]

Honestly, I think some people on this site (and General Topics in particular) specifically look for reasons to get spun up. :nope:

[Herr_Pete]

It's pathetic isn't it. I got told off for quoting Monty Python not to long ago at work by saying "Rule number 1, No Poofters" Bad times when you can't quote Monty Python.

[Skybird]

Honestly, I think some people on this site (and General Topics in particular) specifically look for reasons to get spun up. :nope:

Maybe that is because you do not think the issue (described in this thread) to the end and thus live in ignorrance of it'S far-reaching cultural consequences (which already mess up german education policies as well. Two of my closest friends are teacher, my grandfather also was. They are describing an epidemic of PC crap, administrational desire for streamlining, and madness. One guy, after just ten years in service, is close to throwing the towel and leave his profession).

Or maybe that is because this kind of thinking complained about in this thread matches your own - I honestly can't tell.

[Dimitrius07]

When i was a kid i saw many young proud mothers (19-22) carrying baby in they arms, and now girls only care about party and alcohol. When they get pregnant (by accident as usual) they throw baby to dumpster. This is how i see a "new world order" in action (don`t like it, deal with that). Kids age 14-15 dressed up like prostitutes, no values no self respect no nothing. The only question is where are the parents? This is how i see a world today, generation of idiots... "GOOD JOB" :yeah:.

[Bilge_Rat]

We need a new great war in Europe, to root out what has become so degenerated and rotten in western, endlessly relativising thinking, a real war that kills and destroys and puts everybody at direct, immediate risk. :doh:




now now Skybird, isnt that the same thing Herr Adolf and his cronies said in the 30's?

look how well that turned out...

give me a degenerate Europe any day....:woot:

[Happy Times]

When i was a kid i saw many young proud mothers (19-22) carrying baby in they arms, and now girls only care about party and alcohol. When they get pregnant (by accident as usual) they throw baby to dumpster. This is how i see a "new world order" in action (don`t like it, deal with that). Kids age 14-15 dressed up like prostitutes, no values no self respect no nothing. The only question is where are the parents? This is how i see a world today, generation of idiots... "GOOD JOB" :yeah:.

Well said.:salute:

[Dimitrius07]

now now Skybird, isnt that the same thing Herr Adolf and his cronies said in the 30's?

look how well that turned out...

give me a degenerate Europe any day....:woot:

So the leftwing media (as an example) is a race now :o....fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu uuuuuu. I assume if you want something you will also pay the price for it. After the payday come back and try to repeat what you sad (if you will be able to do so). Have a nice day:up:

[Tchocky]

When i was a kid i saw many young proud mothers (19-22) carrying baby in they arms, and now girls only care about party and alcohol.
Some scholars point to the invention of alcohol in the late 1980's as the beginning of the end.
When they get pregnant (by accident as usual) they throw baby to dumpster. This is how i see a "new world order" in action (don`t like it, deal with that). Kids age 14-15 dressed up like prostitutes, no values no self respect no nothing. The only question is where are the parents? This is how i see a world today, generation of idiots... "GOOD JOB" :yeah:.

Plenty of great kids being raised by great parents. As always.
Somebody dig up that Socrates (Aristotle?) quote about those BLOODY KIDS THESE DAYS

[Dimitrius07]

Some scholars point to the invention of alcohol in the late 1980's as the beginning of the end.


Plenty of great kids being raised by great parents. As always.
Somebody dig up that Socrates (Aristotle?) quote about those BLOODY KIDS THESE DAYS

I didn`t mention the whole mankind in that matter, and when it comes to "dig up" i think i am not so good at it. Its probably something that have to do with freedom of expression or something:hmmm:. Not anyone like it...as always.

Anyway, what`s your main point? Want to prove me wrong or say that my opinion is harsh? Educate your kids so they will have some values in life. Bye :salute:

[Skybird]

now now Skybird, isnt that the same thing Herr Adolf and his cronies said in the 30's?


It seems you have gotten the hidden irony. Political correctness first leads to extremes that lead it ad absurdum, and then to even worse situations where a cleanup seems to be the only thing that can get rid of the whole mess again. that way it acchieves what it claims to prevent: chaos.

Either these self-destroying "trends" get broken, or their ideologic originators succeed. I absolutely detest the perspective of the latter, and I have no trust anymore to break up the many degenerations of our culture. If they want to bring this culture down, then not without a fight, I say, no matter whether it is islam or left ideology. Let'S chase away both - for the sake of those coming after us.

there is a reason why revolutions mostly were revolutions indeed. It was because negotiations or reforming attempts did not work.

And as they say: an external enemy unites us, immediate needs and suffering washes illusions out of our heads. When it is only about mere physical survival anymore , the mind does not care much for stupid ideologies disconnected from reality anymore, but tries to figure how to survive the next day.

[Tribesman]

Anyway, what`s your main point? Want to prove me wrong or say that my opinion is harsh?
I think he is saying that your opinion is as old as the hills and is recycled in every generation in a reactionary manner which kinda makes it in essence a meaningless opinion.

[DarkFish]

When i was a kid i saw many young proud mothers (19-22) carrying baby in they arms, and now girls only care about party and alcohol. When they get pregnant (by accident as usual) they throw baby to dumpster. This is how i see a "new world order" in action (don`t like it, deal with that). Kids age 14-15 dressed up like prostitutes, no values no self respect no nothing. The only question is where are the parents? This is how i see a world today, generation of idiots... "GOOD JOB" :yeah:.This is not how I see today's world.
I'm most definitely what you describe as "only caring about parties and alcohol", and many female friends of mine are so as well (as far as partying is concerned, I'm in the lucky position to know more girls than guys :lol::yeah:)

But I know not a single girl of my age who is pregnant or has a child.
They are out there, surely. But don't pretend it's common.

Kids age 14-15 dressed up like prostitutes, no values no self respect no nothing.Surely, girls dress much more "sexy" than they did in the past. But is this necessarily a bad thing? From all girls I know (mostly age 17-19), I can tell you all of them do very definitely so have values and self respect. Why make (young) women hide their bodies? You say they have no self-respect, because they hide much less of their body features than past generations. But doesn't the simple fact that they dare to show their looks indicate they're proud of their bodies? Which automatically means they do have self respect.

[Dimitrius07]

Surely, girls dress much more "sexy" than they did in the past. But is this necessarily a bad thing?
I din`t say its a bad thing, there are difference between dress openly and dress like an dirty @@@@, especially at age when girl don`t have a passport. If that what moves you its your own business not mine, i`am sorry.

Why make (young) women hide their bodies?

Jumping from one extreme to the other..... You came to the wrong room, jihad - next door.

You say they have no self-respect, because they hide much less of their body features than past generations. But doesn't the simple fact that they dare to show their looks indicate they're proud of their bodies? Which automatically means they do have self respect.

Right... They so proud that you can find they private body parts on the internet... GOOD JOB. :yeah:.

I'm in the lucky position to know more girls than guys
What is this have to do with the topic? O wait i get it... whatever.:nope: I just don`t want to turn this thread into one big roman mess. Boring zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

But I know not a single girl of my age who is pregnant or has a child.

Very good. I will drink for that.

They are out there, surely. But don't pretend it's common.

Sure they out there, ready to play 'throw baby into dumpster before parents come home', not so hard to figure out.:88).

only caring about parties and alcohol

Want some more. Coming right up:up:. Beating a girlfriend half to death and post it on the web to gain attention, smells good? I think this one is classic. Real man do this all the time... GOOD JOB :yeah:

[Tribesman]

Jumping from one extreme to the other..... You came to the wrong room, jihad - next door.

Is that next door to the modesty "police" where women are attacked in the streets of Jerusalem for not covering their tempting flesh in the approved manner?
especially at age when girl don`t have a passport
The only age when a girl doesn't have a passport is the age when the girls parents didn't apply for one:doh:

[Schroeder]

Right... They so proud that you can find they private body parts on the internet... GOOD JOB. :yeah:.

And that's bad why?
As long as they do it voluntarily and not while being filled up, I don't see the problem.


Sure they out there, ready to play 'throw baby into dumpster before parents come home', not so hard to figure out.:88).
Is that the way it works in Israel? Over here it doesn't. I won't deny that teen pregnancies do happen, but it is not the norm.

Beating a girlfriend half to death and post it on the web to gain attention, smells good? I think this one is classic. Real man do this all the time... GOOD JOB :yeah:Again, is this standard behaviour in Israel? Over here it isn't.
I only know one case personally where such a thing happened (without posting it on the net) and that was a Christian girl living together with a Lebanese.... do I have to say anything more on that case.:shifty:

[Dimitrius07]

Again, is this standard behaviour in Israel? Over here it isn't.

It was not my point, i didn`t even mentioned any country in particular but if your arguments ends up this way its speaks for itself.

[Bilge_Rat]

Is that next door to the modesty "police" where women are attacked in the streets of Jerusalem for not covering their tempting flesh in the approved manner?



where do you come up with such drivel?

Israel is a very secular society. Women have as much freedom there as women in north america or western europe.

If you are so worried about the status of women, maybe you should focus on the treatment of women in muslim countries.

[Happy Times]

Well in Finland you can notice the moral decline in girls and young women.

Large number of them drink, smoke and party in a way that doesnt interest any man interested in a serious relationship.

They are in all social groups, university students seem to have a lot of time to drink especially.

Other common features.

They dont know how to use money responsibly or budget even a month beforehand.

They cant cook.

They cant clean.



Now i can personally say that any of these features doesnt make me start to consider a relationship with a woman.
In my opinion there is nothing more important in a womans life than to be a good mother to her children.

But in the future we will have a lot more of smoking female alcoholics that cant manage their daily lifes let alone children.

But what can you expect when they all love looking from TV and movies how 50yrs old single women mess their life in New York.:dead:

[Dimitrius07]

Israel is a very secular society. Women have as much freedom there as women in north america or western europe.

Depends on many things. Police in many cases in favor of Arabs, now who control the police? That your answer. Thats not mean however that my country follows sharia law or something like that. You can find Arab woman in my city who have a good look because they don`t suffer from a lack of sun.:sunny:

As i sad, my point was an education and not nationality or religious fanaticism. This is what destroys the values of life and self respect, and someone will pay a heavy price for it. Saturday first, Sunday next :D.... GOOOD JOB :yeah:

[DarkFish]

Right... They so proud that you can find they private body parts on the internet... GOOD JOB. :yeah:. And that's bad why?
As long as they do it voluntarily and not while being filled up, I don't see the problem.That's how I think about it:up:
But even then, I know nobody who shows their private parts on internet. There are girls like that, but it isn't part of todays culture.

(to be honest, the use of the word "filled up" is quite disturbing here:o)
:O:

Beating a girlfriend half to death and post it on the web to gain attention, smells good? I think this one is classic. Real man do this all the time... GOOD JOB :yeah:I don't even know a single girl who's been beaten up by her partner.
I can assure you, it isn't seen as tough or "real man" behaviour.

What is this have to do with the topic?well, since you're specifically talking about party-going and alcohol loving girls, it shows that I know what I'm talking about.
(also, it was an attempt to bring a little humour into the thread. If you don't get it, your problem)

Jumping from one extreme to the other..... You came to the wrong room, jihad - next door.Whuh?! What in Odin's name does the jihad have to do with this:-?

It was not my point, i didn`t even mentioned any country in particular but if your arguments ends up this way its speaks for itself.Well you claim all these things to be normal aspects of todays youth culture. While they clearly aren't aspects of todays Western European youth culture. So you're either plainly wrong, or the Western European youth culture differs from the Israelian youth culture.

[DarkFish]

Well in Finland you can notice the moral decline in girls and young women.

Large number of them drink, smoke and party in a way that doesnt interest any man interested in a serious relationship.Well personally I like the girls who are the heaviest drinkers and party-goers best.

They are in all social groups, university students seem to have a lot of time to drink especially.aye:DL
What's better than some good old drinking:yeah:

Other common features.

They dont know how to use money responsibly or budget even a month beforehand.

They cant cook.

They cant clean.So why does it by definition have to be a woman doing these things? Can't a man do it all just as well?
Also, you can always learn cooking and cleaning.

Now i can personally say that any of these features doesnt make me start to consider a relationship with a woman.
In my opinion there is nothing more important in a womans life than to be a good mother to her children.

But in the future we will have a lot more of smoking female alcoholics that cant manage their daily lifes let alone children.But there's a difference between college life and being a parent. Sure, nowadays students drink and party and what not more, but that doesn't make us "smoking alcoholics".
I and my friends are heavy drinkers and party goers, and most of my friends smoke the occasional weed, but none of us is an addict in any way, and we all can be very responsible if needed.

[Tchocky]

Only men should be allowed drink and smoke. Obviously.

We're allowed to have declining morals (I think it's an astronomical term). They're not.

On yer back, love. Children required.

[Bilge_Rat]

Depends on many things. Police in many cases in favor of Arabs, now who control the police? That your answer. Thats not mean however that my country follows sharia law or something like that. You can find Arab woman in my city who have a good look because they don`t suffer from a lack of sun.:sunny:



I was referring to mainstream jewish women, not israeli arabs or orthodox jews.

[DarkFish]

Only men should be allowed drink and smoke. Obviously.

We're allowed to have declining morals (I think it's an astronomical term). They're not.

On yer back, love. Children required.Aye! On yer way to the kitchen love!
:rotfl2:

[Schroeder]

It was not my point, i didn`t even mentioned any country in particular but if your arguments ends up this way its speaks for itself.
You said, that girls throw their babies into the gutter. So I asked whether this is the case where you live because it is not the case in Europe. So where do you see this happening?

[Dimitrius07]

You said, that girls throw their babies into the gutter. So I asked whether this is the case where you live because it is not the case in Europe. So where do you see this happening?

I have no patient for this, i`am sorry. If you wanna play yes no game seek out Avon.

[Schroeder]

What do you mean by yes no game?
I just asked where does it frequently happen that teenage girls are killing their babies?
You claimed this would happen, did you not?

[DarkFish]

I have no patient for this, i`am sorry. If you wanna play yes no game seek out Avon.So in other words you refuse to give any arguments for what you're stating?

[Sailor Steve]

Somebody dig up that Socrates (Aristotle?) quote about those BLOODY KIDS THESE DAYS
You might be thinking of this one, commonly attributed to Plato.
What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying. What is to become of them?
Unfortunately there is not verification that I could find that it is any older than the early twentieth century. Still, it is fairly evident that the decline of morals in youth has always been a complaint of their elders.

[Respenus]

While it is true that elders always complain about the lacking morals of younger generations and seemingly we have survived, you must admit that sometimes things get so low, that they need to be reset. In the past, it might have been limited (to my knowledge, I may be wrong), to a certain strata of society (usually the rich one), with enough left to balance things out (today its every single group, the distinction being how expensive a drink or party you can afford). Nowadays, go take a walk by Ljubljanica in the summer (or any time frankly). While this would be unthinkable in the past, there are alcohol cans and empty wine bottles everywhere. I feel pity for the poor worker who needs to clean it up every single day.

I understand that some of us may be old-fashioned and might overreact slightly to certain events, yet there is a sociologically perceived point where things can no longer move forward, as too big a part of the population can no longer be bothered to do anything. I've said in my previous post, I'm not sure 1% of the youth today is willing or even capable to take on the challenge of ensuring further survival and development. And those who do are usually sociopaths, power-seeking, money grabbing little bastards making life horrible for everyone. And the rest keep on partying like there is no tomorrow. There are two problems are perceive, and are in a way problems of humans in general. First is the inability to look or even be willing to consider the future, when things might change and ambrosia might not be as freely available as today. The second is social responsibility, both towards the members of your local community and mankind in general. Although I'll be first to admit I live more than a life of luxury (being middle class is more than I need) and am spoiled in certain regards, I'll also be the first one to point out that there are others who are not as lucky and on whose back, most probably, our fortune was built.

Add to all of this the inherent willingness of the legislators to pass a law on every damned thing, which is impossible. Laws must by definition be absolute, or leave very little room for manoeuvre, as otherwise they would be ineffective. Society on the other hand knows of not absolutes, nothing is black and white and everything is grey. Going back to my first post, I spoke about corporeal punishment of children. While it is required for law to protect the weak, in this case, a child from parental abuse (beating the child senseless), I do not accept that it take away from me a form of punishment that works, has worked since time immemorial and leaves little mental scarring. Sometimes, locking you kid in a room or taking away his toys just doesn't cut it. Sometimes they do not listen and then come out with "I have rights, you cannot touch me" routine. If the state wishes to raise my child, let them. But as long as I must take care of him, feed him, cloth him and try to prepare him for the cruel world that is out there, the permissiveness of today's western society should be put into question, while trying not to return to the old extremes of men being the rulers of life of both their wives (partners in order to be fair to homosexuals) and children.

It is a complex question, which requires a complex solution. The best thing is to step back, take a good look and try to solve this without the system of law (from either local, regional, state or supranational level) interfering with every minimal choice in a person's life.

[Tribesman]

where do you come up with such drivel?

Perhaps you should read more Israeli newspapers:up:

Israel is a very secular society.
You really should keep up to date.


What do you mean by yes no game?

Surely you realise that as the first post he did made little sense and the subsequent posts have deteriorated further then by no game he means he hasn't a hand to play at all.

[Bilge_Rat]

Perhaps you should read more Israeli newspapers:up:

even better, I visited.

lovely place, may go back.:yep:

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/995/beach002.jpg

[DarkFish]

I've said in my previous post, I'm not sure 1% of the youth today is willing or even capable to take on the challenge of ensuring further survival and development. And those who do are usually sociopaths, power-seeking, money grabbing little bastards making life horrible for everyone. And the rest keep on partying like there is no tomorrow.I'm not so sure about that. It may seem like that to an outsider, but all my friends (and I) are students or will be studying next year. We ARE the people that are willing, and definitely capable, because of our universitary education, to "ensure further development". That while none of us is a "power-seeking sociopath", and all of us are "partying like there is no tomorrow".

Going back to my first post, I spoke about corporeal punishment of children. While it is required for law to protect the weak, in this case, a child from parental abuse (beating the child senseless), I do not accept that it take away from me a form of punishment that works, has worked since time immemorial and leaves little mental scarring. Sometimes, locking you kid in a room or taking away his toys just doesn't cut it. Sometimes they do not listen and then come out with "I have rights, you cannot touch me" routine.Corporal punishment is not needed. I've never been hit by any of my parents, but nobody's gonna be able to say I haven't been raised properly. IMHO, a parent that needs to inflict pain, or even threatening to inflict pain for that matter, to keep his/her children under control, is a bad parent (or at least one who's children raising techniques could be improved). A good parent is able to make his/her children do as he/she wishes without all that.

[MH]

Perhaps you should read more Israeli newspapers:up:


You really should keep up to date.



Surely you realise that as the first post he did made little sense and the subsequent posts have deteriorated further then by no game he means he hasn't a hand to play at all.

Aren't you an extremist....?:damn:

[Happy Times]

Ive lived in Israel and Syria as a teen and visited Egypt.
After that i have been as tourist in Israel and Egypt.

Israel isnt filthy and full of lazy people, the other two are.
Just an personal observation, live with it.:haha:

[Happy Times]

I'm not so sure about that. It may seem like that to an outsider, but all my friends (and I) are students or will be studying next year. We ARE the people that are willing, and definitely capable, because of our universitary education, to "ensure further development". That while none of us is a "power-seeking sociopath", and all of us are "partying like there is no tomorrow".

Corporal punishment is not needed. I've never been hit by any of my parents, but nobody's gonna be able to say I haven't been raised properly. IMHO, a parent that needs to inflict pain, or even threatening to inflict pain for that matter, to keep his/her children under control, is a bad parent (or at least one who's children raising techniques could be improved). A good parent is able to make his/her children do as he/she wishes without all that.

So you would be happy if your child used alcohol and drugs?
Or had sex with a different person every week?
Werent a hard worker or pupil but liked more to party?

If so we can just settle to disagree.:salute:

[Tchocky]

You might be thinking of this one, commonly attributed to Plato.

Unfortunately there is not verification that I could find that it is any older than the early twentieth century. Still, it is fairly evident that the decline of morals in youth has always been a complaint of their elders.
Ah, it was that one indeed :up:

Cheers!

[DarkFish]

even better, I visited.

lovely place, may go back.:yep:

http://img706.imageshack.us/img706/995/beach002.jpg
http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g197/amie_06/Smiley%20Page/drool.gif
Great country, with such beautiful gi.. eh, beaches:up:

So you would be happy if your child used alcohol and drugs?
Or had sex with a different person every week?
Werent a hard worker or pupil but liked more to party?

If so we can just settle to disagree.:salute:I don't have any children as I'm one of those teens you're talking about:)
But if I had children, yes I would be happy if they used alcohol and drugs and had lots of sex, as long as they did it all safe.

[heartc]

http://i56.photobucket.com/albums/g197/amie_06/Smiley%20Page/drool.gif
yes I would be happy if they used alcohol and drugs and had lots of sex, as long as they did it all safe.

Oxymoron detected. LOL.

[DarkFish]

Oxymoron detected. LOL.hmmm? I can't find it...:06:

[Respenus]

This sums up my arguments nicely.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l3nhqc01xB1qzpwi0o1_500.png

[Jimbuna]

I like that Respenus....puts a few things into perspective for me http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[heartc]

hmmm? I can't find it...:06:

Try harder. :rotfl2: :up:

[DarkFish]

Try harder. :rotfl2: :up:still don't see it:hmmm: why don't you just tell me, as I fear that's probably the only way for me to ever know it:hmmm:

[Happy Times]

still don't see it:hmmm: why don't you just tell me, as I fear that's probably the only way for me to ever know it:hmmm:

You serious?

[Skybird]

Nice find, Respenus. ;)

[DarkFish]

You serious?Yes, I'm serious. And now can anyone PLEASE tell me where the damn thing is?

[Respenus]

@DarkFish
I order to prevent the constant exchange of short one-liners, I'll explain it to you.

You said that you had no problems concerning the eventual use of alcohol, drugs and sex of your children, as long as they do it safely. The first two items, well, they are both drugs and there aren't any drugs that you can do safely. As far as sex goes, I really wish to know how low are you willing to push the boundary for your children.

Again, I have nothing against a liberal society, just not to the point where it is all that we have. Or to quote Richard Dawkins: By all means let's be open-minded, but not so open-minded that our brains drop out. The same thing goes for any inter-personal and societal relations.

@jimbuna
Thank you for the official wolf thumb up of approval.

[heartc]

still don't see it:hmmm: why don't you just tell me, as I fear that's probably the only way for me to ever know it:hmmm:


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AZZ_nwtcO-A/SkGG5lhlYXI/AAAAAAAAAEM/csX6CcMZM7U/s400/no-country-for-old-men-4-1.jpg

Hey, come on, don't play stupid. Of course you know exactly. You just "ask" back so you can start a discussion in which you'll tell everybody how you and your friends can **** around totally drunken and stoned while everything will be perfectly "safe". But I'm not your mom / dad, so I won't pursue that discussion with you. ;)
We all know you are as invincible as we were. :up:

[DarkFish]

@DarkFish
I order to prevent the constant exchange of short one-liners, I'll explain it to you.thanks:up:

You said that you had no problems concerning the eventual use of alcohol, drugs and sex of your children, as long as they do it safely. The first two items, well, they are both drugs and there aren't any drugs that you can do safely.Well this explains why I couldn't see it, because as far as I'm concerned it's perfectly possible to safely do drugs or drink alcohol. (of course, as is the case with everything, it depends on where you put the boundaries of "safe". Everything can go wrong; with a zero-tolerance safety limit essentially nothing is safe.)
As long as you don't get addicted, and don't drink yourself into the hospital, both drinking and drugs are perfectly safe IMO.

As far as sex goes, I really wish to know how low are you willing to push the boundary for your children.Well as long as they did it voluntarily and with pregnancy/STD prevention, it would be very low.
If a child of mine wanted to be a complete slut, well, it's his/her life.
If some sexual activities of his/hers went in straight against my values, I'd surely have a long chat with him/her. But if he/she understands what I'm concerned about and still wants to go on the way he/she used to do, who am I to interfere with that?


Hey, come on, don't play stupid. Of course you know exactly. You just "ask" back so you can start a discussion in which you'll tell everybody how you and your friends can **** around totally drunken and stoned while everything will be perfectly "safe".Ehm right, so now I am stupid because I happen to have a different opinion on that than you have:nope:
And even better, I don't truthfully ask things; everytime I ask something I do it to start a discussion?!:stare:
Mustn't it be a hard world for you, seeking conspiracy theories behind everything?

But I'm not your mom / dad, so I won't pursue that discussion with you. ;)no, you just "assume" you're right without discussing, and if someone happens to disagree with your "reality" it's either a conspiracy or that person is just plain stupid:roll:

[Dimitrius07]

May i ask a simple question. Why in the name of Gates people jump from extreme into insanity? Having fun is not a bad thing unless you don`t turn into thing worst that any wild animal. Your life,your call. I can post my imho but i am not your parent (lucky you.....joke):)

[FIREWALL]

This sums up my arguments nicely.

http://29.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_l3nhqc01xB1qzpwi0o1_500.png

I like that Respenus....puts a few things into perspective for me http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

What Jim said. :up:

[Tribesman]

even better, I visited.

Yet you never came across the modesty patrols or the segregation.:rotfl2:

[Bilge_Rat]

Yet you never came across the modesty patrols or the segregation.:rotfl2:


no.:rotfl2::rotfl2:

[Tribesman]

Well perhaps you will learn one day.
A simple look for modesty patrols, modesty police, or the commitee for purity should relieve you of your lack of knowledge.

A quick look at the attacks on buses in Jerusalem should inform you about the segregation issue with the insistance on mehedrim lines or you could expand into the refusal to answer the draft because there are women in the IDF units.
Though to be fair the "modesty" and segregation issue only really came to prominance in the past decade as the fundamentalist fruitcakes got more of a voice and started trying to make others follow their view.

[Bilge_Rat]

Well perhaps you will learn one day.
A simple look for modesty patrols, modesty police, or the commitee for purity should relieve you of your lack of knowledge.

A quick look at the attacks on buses in Jerusalem should inform you about the segregation issue with the insistance on mehedrim lines or you could expand into the refusal to answer the draft because there are women in the IDF units.
Though to be fair the "modesty" and segregation issue only really came to prominance in the past decade as the fundamentalist fruitcakes got more of a voice and started trying to make others follow their view.

Or perhaps you could stop making wild extrapolations about isolated criminal cases that have zero impact on the general population. Do your own research or if you want me to take you by the hand and explain it to you in baby steps, it will be my pleasure. :)

[Tribesman]

Or perhaps you could stop making wild extrapolations about isolated criminal cases that have zero impact on the general population.
Zero impact?????? the major national bus company has had to cancel services including many of the tourist/pilgrim routes because nuts are attacking the buses for not making womwen sit at the back
If you think curtailing public transport in a major city because religious freaks are going crazy is zero impact on the population then you need a new dictionary.
Since it extends to attacking people for outrageous behavior like errrrr.....driving cars:o or burning down long established business for having the wrong opening times or selling the wrong goods then you really are missing the point.
The point being that while you claim theat it has zero impact on the population the fact is that the nuts are spreading and having more and more impact on the population.
Now you might say that this angle has little place in this topic, and it wouldn't have if someone hadn't brought religious fundamentalist nuts into the topic to start with.

[heartc]

Well this explains why I couldn't see it, because as far as I'm concerned it's perfectly possible to safely do drugs or drink alcohol.

Thanks for proving my point, lol. And you need to relax some. Your butt hurtness and the straw men you put up against my friendly response just shows you're not as much in control as you think you are. Also, your reading comprehension is lacking: I didn't say you were stupid for your opinion. I said you were *playing* stupid as in *pretending* not to understand my point while you perfectly did so.

[DarkFish]

Thanks for proving my point, lol.and what point is that exactly? Does it somehow "prove" I'm playing stupid? Does it somehow "prove" I'm putting up strawmen?

And you need to relax some. Your butt hurtnessOh, and now *I* have to relax some? Now who is attacking who exactly?

and the strawmen you put upYeah sure, those hundreds of thousands of strawmen I put up:doh: You're looking for ghosts, man:nope:

against my friendly responseYeah, I guess if you call it friendly to falsely accuse people of playing stupid, and falsely accuse them for putting up strawmen, and putting up your opinion as a truth without leaving any space for discussion, then indeed your post was very friendly:doh:

just shows you're not as much in control as you think you are.Excuse me? I don't think I'm in control over anything here. This whole reply of yours just shows that you are either:
- Deliberately trolling by attacking me
- Somehow think you've got mind reading capabilities
- Too scared to discuss things by just stating "alcohol and drug use is always dangerous" and then saying anyone who disagrees with that is either playing stupid or putting up strawmen
- Don't have any arguments to support your opinion and therefore just attack me in a laughable attempt to prove your point

Also, your reading comprehension is lacking: I didn't say you were stupid for your opinion. I said you were *playing* stupid as in *pretending* not to understand my point while you perfectly did so.Well, because I *don't* play things it means exactly the same. Lacking reading comprehension my bollocks.

Besides, now we're talking about lacking capabilities anyway: your mind reading capabilities are severely lacking.
One thing I utterly hate is when people think they know exactly what I think while in fact they don't know nothing. So now will you please stop pretending you supposedly know what I think?



If you want to somehow prove that drugs use is always dangerous, why don't you come up with some proof for that instead of attacking me? That's how a good discussion generally works, one side comes up with arguments, then the other with counter-arguments, then the first with counter-counter-arguments etc.
Discussions don't go like "If you don't agree with me you're playing stupid and putting up strawmen, nananananana!"
:nope:

[Bilge_Rat]

Zero impact?????? the major national bus company has had to cancel services including many of the tourist/pilgrim routes because nuts are attacking the buses for not making womwen sit at the back
If you think curtailing public transport in a major city because religious freaks are going crazy is zero impact on the population then you need a new dictionary.
Since it extends to attacking people for outrageous behavior like errrrr.....driving cars:o or burning down long established business for having the wrong opening times or selling the wrong goods then you really are missing the point.
The point being that while you claim theat it has zero impact on the population the fact is that the nuts are spreading and having more and more impact on the population.
Now you might say that this angle has little place in this topic, and it wouldn't have if someone hadn't brought religious fundamentalist nuts into the topic to start with.

now you're just making stuff up..:arrgh!:

[heartc]

[...]

Oh dear, please do me a favor and grow some skin, quickly. "NOW WHO IS ATTACKING WHO?" lol. No one was attacking you, mate. And don't worry, your ego is not at stake on "the internets", trust me.
But if this is how you are when you're sober, I can only suggest to go very easy on the stuff you're talking about. ;)

[DarkFish]

grow some skin, quickly.your egowhen you're sobergo very easy on the stuff you're talking about.you can't just stop insulting, can you?:shifty:

[Tribesman]

now you're just making stuff up..
Yes of course I am:doh:
I have such a fertile imagination that I can invent the disputes, like egged refusing the demands to install automatic fare machines at the back of buses to facilitate women who are not being allowed to enter the normal bus door.
Its amazing how my imagination can allow me to invent such things as the mehadrin:rotfl2:
For the next imaginary story Transportation minster Yisrail Katz in response to a petition said the government cannot disapprove of the segregation but cannot allow it to be institutionalised and says that the violence and dispuption must stop

[DarkFish]

anyway, to get back to what was originally asked me, as some people do not seem to find my answer satisfying (not just heartc):
So you would be happy if your child used alcohol and drugs?
Or had sex with a different person every week?
Werent a hard worker or pupil but liked more to party?To which I answered "yes".

The first two items, well, they are both drugs and there aren't any drugs that you can do safely.These reports seem to indicate otherwise:
http://www.ukcia.org/research/safe-medicine.php
the DEA's own administrative judge Frances Young concluded that ``Marijuana is one of the safest therapeutically active substances known to man.''http://www2.potsdam.edu/hansondj/alcoholandhealth.html
Moderate drinkers tend to have better health and live longer than those who are either abstainers or heavy drinkersYes, if you use drugs or alcohol very frequently and in large enough amounts, they do have negative effects.
But for both of them counts that if you use them moderately, they do not have negative effects, and in the case of alcohol apparently even some positive effects.

(personally I'd be willing to stretch the boundaries of "safe" even further, as long as my children wouldn't drink themselves into the hospital it'd be OK as far as I'm concerned. You've only got a few years to drink and party and such, so why not make it one hell of a great time?:))



On the topic of safe sex:
http://www.aidschicago.org/condoms/ltoyw_fact.pdf
Latex condoms, used consistently and correctly, are 98-99% effective in preventing HIV
transmissionand most people don't have HIV. (there are other STD's, but most of them are not nearly as dangerous as HIV)
So yeah, sex is pretty safe too.
Now why would I as a parent (if I were one) prohibit my children to have as much sex as they wanted? Health is not a big concern (as long as they have safe sex).
As long as they do it because they like sex, and not for money and stuff, why keep your kids from sexual intercourse?