Report: Israel attacks flotilla, 10 die [Archive]

VonHesse

05-31-10, 12:16 AM

HAIFA, Israel - Israeli Navy commandos attacked at least one of the six ships carrying pro-Palestinian activists and aid for blockaded Gaza, killing 10 and wounding several dozen on board, according to an Israeli TV network and a lawyer for the activists' group. Channel 10 said the final death toll could be higher as Navy commandos who boarded the convoy were still conducting searches and encountering often violent resistance from pro-Palestinian activists.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

Had a feeling it was going to end this way. It's always the way it ends when people without guns try to stand up against people with guns.

Just sad really.

Oh, and the contraband worth killing over...?

The boats are carrying items that Israel bars from reaching Gaza, like cement and other building materials. The activists said they also were carrying hundreds of electric-powered wheelchairs, prefabricated homes and water purifiers.

:nope:

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 12:26 AM

Conflicting info on the number of deceased, a sad case nevertheless. Doesn't make Israel look particularly nice. :nope:

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 12:51 AM

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 01:04 AM

Unfortunate that people died.

But a blockade is a blockade, even if you plan on smuggling something as benign as childrens party hats into an active blockade zone you had best be aware of the very real possibility of getting your ass shot at.

Not taking sides... I'm just sayin'

these types of people would run head long into a mine field and then act surprised when they get their legs blown off.

Besides... Palestenians aren't so concerned about world stage appearances when they suicide bomb a bus station or something.

You probably didn't care anything about the USS Liberty - incident (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Liberty_incident) either. I mean, it's Israel and you guys have 'special ties'. US military members and citizens come second, Israel comes first, right?

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 01:25 AM

Like I said... I'M NOT TAKING SIDES (all caps so OTH might catch it this time as he failed to do so last time around)

go into a warzone or blockade zone... Be you American, Canadian, French, German, Martian, teletubby -whatever- Be ready to get shot at if you choose to do so.

I'm not justifying these events or any past or future activities.

Just pointing out that if you go outside during a monsoon, expect to get wet.

VonHesse

05-31-10, 01:37 AM

Early reports suggest that they were in international waters when the Israeli Navy boarded the ships.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01flotilla.html

The warships first intercepted the aid flotilla shortly before midnight on Sunday, surprising the boats in international waters, according to activists on one vessel.

Awfuly ballsy to be boarding a Turkish flagged ship in international waters. Intended blockade runners or no, untill they actually enter Israeli waters and/or the blockade zone, forcibly boarding a foriegn flagged ship would seem to be a big no-no.

The reports are still rolling in, and it's late here. Be interested to see if things get clarified by the morning. Might be an international brouhaha
in the making.

Oh, and I'm not taking sides either. Not till the facts are clearer and then only on the facts of this incident. 2000 year arguments are not my cup of tea.

Merchant Raider

05-31-10, 02:22 AM

Sad to see alright, a great army with a proud past reduced to this and killing women and kids in Gaza, are we seeing the begining of a new rogue state, or more unrest in this region
:nope:

L.T

05-31-10, 03:02 AM

The news here are werry carefull what they put out abóut this.

First information about this was that the activists on board attackedc the boarding soldiers with metal pipes and clubs...

Other information talks about a 6 hour gunfight with 4 of the boarders wounded...

I realy dont think on the details about who did what, What gets to me is that it happend in international waters. That detail is the key. If the information about the ship was in international waters then Israel is not one bit better than the somali pirates...

An attack like this in international waters would in the past result in millitay actions from the owner of the ship against the foe. This push the free movement at sea right into the trash can, if there is no actions against it.

I dont care what they do in national waters, but they have to respect international waters. In national waters they could blow the darn ship up with no problem......But that is and should not be alowed in international waters...

Blacklight

05-31-10, 03:21 AM

As soon as I heard about those ships heading over there, I knew that this would happen. Although I also don't discount them all suiciding so that Israel would be blamed either. Then again, I find it totally plausible that Israel attacked the boats too.

are we seeing the begining of a new rogue state, or more unrest in this region
I don't think that we'll EVER see peace over there. Each side hates each other going back generations and neither side is willing to budge on anything. Add to that the fact that one of the two sides won't be satisfied with just a peace treaty and you have a conflict that's going to be going on forever.

CCIP

05-31-10, 03:35 AM

Honestly, I don't think we're ever going to get down to the truth here. All I'm seeing here - and all I saw before this even happened - is two sides set on what's basically a propaganda confrontation. There's no question the activists weren't terribly interested in practical concerns (what they're bringing in was puny and materially near-irrelevant, delivered in an extremely inefficient way) as much as they wanted to make a political statement - and honestly, I think they were probably looking for a confrontation to end as badly as possible in order to make Israel look bad. On the other hand Israel made it a point to stop them no matter what and no matter where, because it cannot afford to show that it is not in absolute strategic control. It would be far from beneath them to take to force and to disregard international law - they've done the latter so much that it's become almost THE official stance for them (i.e. their security priorities override any international law, often blatantly and without shame).

So these two particular rams ran straight at each other for a nice confrontational headbutt. The ram with the harder skull and bigger horns "won" in a total non-surprise. The global village is crying wolf for the smaller sheep.

Honestly, I'm totally unsympathetic to both sides of the incident. I will not be buying the inevitable volumes of propaganda that they will both be churning out in the coming months and weeks. They've both shown that respect for international law, security and peace were the last things they actually wanted in this, and they both deserve to be booed off their soapboxes. :down:

Skybird

05-31-10, 03:41 AM

A blockade that does not get enforced when being challenged, is no blockade (and an untlimatum that does not see the threatened consequences when reaching the end, is no ultimatum).

60+ wounded or dead, 10 Israeli so far wounded, one serious. Storming a ship on high seas is a high risk operation. I assume the commandos acted with according - and needed! - determination, beacause: as I just said, storming ships on high seas are high risk operations. Compromises you make easily result in own troops dead.

Many civilian goods get used for passive and active resistence in Gaza, their intended purpose gets "retargeted". When I first heared about that flotilla getting assembled, I immediately thought that this also was a PR stunt to bring Israel into a position where it would look bad, necessarily.

A week ago or so I wrote that all media awereness and all cameras should be withdrawn from the Israeli-Palestine area. There, almost every picture you see, is arranged. Every spontaneity is organised. Every spontanous demonstration - was announced one day earlier so that the foreign correspondents have enough time to organise their things and get there and set up their cameras. Every "random chance" event was designed for its purpose. You taking note of such things is the purpose why they are kept running on. As CCIP typed above while I was typing mine: it'S about propaganda. There are no innocent sides in this.

Regarding the activists, they asked for trouble, it seems they found it. Could happen when one is denying reality. An embargo is an embargo (even supported ans assisted by Egypt in this case), not a free trade zone.

msxyz

05-31-10, 03:51 AM

There are already videos of the attack leaking on the internet.

I'm not siding withthe Israel Army but it was quite clear that this was bound to happen. And whoever organized this protest had the ships rigged with cameras so that the slightest incident could be tunred into an international media fiasco.

Not smart on the Isreali part to send battle hardened commandos. These guys are like watchdogs trained to shot first and ask question later. When you're mentally conditioned to survive by sheer brute force in a hostile envirnment you don't mix well with any stress situation that requires thinking BEFORE acting. They just act like dumb, albeit very efficient, biological robots.

They should have used policemen who are better trained to deal with protesters, riots, etc...

Just my .02c

Tribesman

05-31-10, 03:58 AM

Every time you think the Israeli government will learn to be less stupid they go and prove that they are very good at getting dumber.

go into a warzone or blockade zone...
It would be less complicated if they had, but it appears they hadn't.

Castout

05-31-10, 03:58 AM

Israel uses excessive force once again. Killing unarmed civilian/ humanitarian activists :nope:.

Not commendable with any excuse even it might suit the word barbaric or act of barbarism.

They better find weapon cache in those ships!

I'm utterly sad and disappointed by Israeli handling of this incident :down::down::down:

You're losing PR points Israel. To be frank it's the same like putting faeces onto your own face Israel. Congratulation if you think it was nice.

Skybird

05-31-10, 04:15 AM

A German newspapers:
"... with dozens of members of European parliaments aboard (the flotilla), amongst them two members from the German Die Linke." (a communist party harbouring defenders of the SED and sympathizers of the GDR regime and having established contact with left terrorist groups in South America).

Gotta love them.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 04:24 AM

So...how about we send in the Russian navy to deal with these murdering pirates, eh?

L.T

05-31-10, 04:31 AM

From a Danish source..

**activist disarmed a commande and doing that the gun whent of. This caused the commandos to open fire**

** far no weapons exept the commandoes have been found on board. The commandos was attacked with primitive weapons, but any ship attacked in international waters have the right to protect it self...**
¨
All Israel should have done was to wait until national waters, you can not uphold a national blocade in international waters.

Werry simple look at this.

Israel attacks Turkish ship in international waters <--- that is the important part.

This is just so stupid. Turkey is actualy an allied, Israel uses Turkish airspace for millitay training and have decent diplomatic relations with them. Turkey is a diplomatic link between Israel and alot of the middle east contrys.....

Its easy to point a gun and blame, thats why i dont talk about the situation itself, but keep my focus on this act of war against a Turkish ship in INTERNATIONAL waters.....

Next time i take my boat for a sail and get into international waters i have to equip my self against boarding from commandos that want to keep me from breaking a blocade....

I know this sound stupid, Northern europe vs middle east waters, but international waters dont have a geografikal location, its the term for waters not bound by nationalitys, and now that is not protectet by international laws, everyone is fair game.....

On the otherside. If Israel can do this with minimal damedge i get a freaking big boat and will take up boarding oceal liners and just call the same ROE as the Israelis uses. **Im sure there were breaking the blocade imposed by me in these waters that say you cant carry choclate bars on your ship**

I will hoist the Jolly L.T and impose my personal laws against anyone sailing my international waters...

We are regulatet in where we go what boarders we cross and now the only place where there was abit freedom left is "shot" to pieces....

If there no international protests against this (heawy unitet diplomatic) think of this..

Northern Korean warship boards German cargo ship in international waters

Somali pirates board cargo ship in international water

US warship boards cuban cargo ship in international waters...

If we dont react massivly against the Israelis for this, we cant react in any of the above situations, simply because you cant favour nations and how they act in international waters....If Israel is alowed to do this, so are anyone else....and this could turn International waters into a "wild west" where everyone can do anything....

Its kinda funny to think of that the Israeli navy are the worlds most modern pirate fleet....

Blow stuf up in your own waters...please....

L.T

Skybird

05-31-10, 04:47 AM

This is the Israeli view of things:

In the Haaretz, Deputy Foreign Minister Danny Ayalon says they have found weapons aboard the flotilla's ships, and claims the organisers of that flottila are linked to Palestininian terror groups like Hamas. He also said that the ships refused to obey calls for following Israeli navy units to an Israeli harbour, but continued to violate the blockade. He points out that Israel could not afford the opening of another corridor for smuggling weapons and terrorists into Gaza.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-gaza-flotilla-organizers-have-connections-to-international-terrorist-groups-1.293187

The Jerusalem Post talks of "concealed guns", "well-planned lynchs", and activists opening the firefight, with the Israeli initially using non-lethal weapins to disperse the crowds. Some of their fireamrs additionally were stolen in following clashes, and used against soldiers.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=176970

the Palestinians score in the propaganda war - this incident certainly will see the world crying wolf over Israel. However, the alternative would have been to practically lift the blockade and let even arms smuggling take place under the eyes of the Israelis.

The West would be well-advised to look closely and comment with maximum self-restraint. This is anything but just a harmless aid project, and the Palestinians are anything but just harmless victims. Their propaganda most times works even more efficient than that of the Israel. Strangely, the Western public opinion buys Palestinian propaganda uncritically and all too willingly, but makes Israeli one a major issue. If that is not double standards.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 04:55 AM

Skybird,

and you believe 100% what the Israeli media writes? You being a German I can sort of understand why you might do that.

L.T

05-31-10, 04:56 AM

msxyz

05-31-10, 05:07 AM

I don't believe for a moment the claim about weapons found aboard.

The organizers goal was too provoke Israel into an embarassingly stupid response (though, they surely obtained more than they bargained for!) but having weapons onboard would have been totally dumb.

I mean, even if nobody thought that a merry band of pacifists and activists would have triggered such a hostile response, the least any country would do is to stop the ships in their NATIONAL waters and have them searched.

And if it's true that the ships were boarded in international waters, resistance by the ship crew and occupants is justified.

empty

05-31-10, 05:23 AM

One thing makes me wonder; "elite Israeli Commandos letting activists capture their guns" I've heard many official lies before, but this one is priceless.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 05:29 AM

According to Sky News (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Palestinian-Aid-Convoy-Two-Killed-As-Israeli-Navy-Clashes-With-Boats-Sailing-To-Gaza-Strip/Article/201005415640829?f=rss) up to 19 dead. :o A massacre...

"Israeli commandos have stormed an international aid convoy bound for Gaza leaving up to 19 dead in what has been condemned as a "massacre"."

Skybird

05-31-10, 05:31 AM

Stil trying to keep things apart...

What happend on the ships i cant say NO ONE OF THE INVOLVED PARTYS CAN BE TRUSTET!!

Indeed, that's why I said the West should answer with self-restraint and have a close look first. I quoted those two Israeli papers only to give back a bit of a balnce to a thread that already has a very strong anti-Israeli undertone and bias.

If anyone thinks Israel would risk the fallout from this incident for no reason, or thinks it is okay to just expect them to give up their blockade for no other reason than just because of an aid ship chartered by people with suspected ties to Hamaz terrorism is trying break it, then he most likely thinks foolish and wrong.

And the growing tensions between Turkey and Israel have earlier reasons than just this, it is because of Turkey's growing ultranationalism and Islamic fundamentalism and it's open cooperation with Syria and even more, Iran - going as far as even giving support for the Iranian program and ruling out that Iran ethically could even be able to ever do any harm (said Erdoghan himself). the Israelis would be stupid to trust the Turks anymore - that's why they bombed the Syrian reactor without telling the Turks before. The Turks would have warned Syria of the strike - and that is why they were so angry that the Israelis did not give them the opportunity.

What it all comes down to, is what I said in my first sentence: a blockade that is not being enforced when it gets challenged, is no blockade, but is - nothing. I claim that the PR fallout over this incident was the primary purprose behind assembling and sending out this flotilla. And many Western useful idiots aboard those ships who have plenty of pink fleecy clouds in their heads and unreflected anti-Israeli sentiments in their hearts could have known the outcome in advance - if only they would not be so mercilessly determined to not switch on their brains, and to critically reflect not only the Israeli policies, but the Palestinian agendas as well of which thy are not only totally uncritical, but are actively engaged in glossing over them and preventing them from becomeing an object of objective analysis.

Castout

05-31-10, 05:32 AM

I love the idea of the Jewish people having their own state that is Israel and I believe golden times in terms of financial and economic success is upon them or will be in a relatively short time but for God sake Israel doesn't care about its international standing and countries that don't care about their international reputation is called rogue nations.

I hope Israelis own people condemn this.

If there were weapons why not show them to the media?

Lying will only make it worse.

Rhodes

05-31-10, 06:00 AM

A portuguese news paper refers that "El Mundo" says:
"There were 759 participants in this initiative aimed at bringing the boat to Gaza 10 000 tonnes of aid. Among these were 20 deputies, a former U.S. congressman, a Nobel Prize for Peace, a Holocaust survivor and several journalists."
(google translation from portuguese)

Any other news paper confirmed this?

Skybird

05-31-10, 06:05 AM

German paper Die Welt points to an official paper by the Israeli mission to the EU, on the background of this operation. I translate that paper afterwards.

Die israelische EU-Mission hat ihre Sicht zur „Gaza-Solidaritätsflotte" in einem Hintergrundpapier erläutert. Das Papier wurde offensichtlich vor dem israelischen Militäreinsatz verfasst. WELT ONLINE dokumentiert die Erklärung:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Eine Flotte aus sechs ausländischen Schiffen ist aus europäischen Häfen mit dem Ziel Gaza-Streifen aufgebrochen, mit ungefähr 600 Menschen, und 10.000 Tonnen Baumaterial und Arzneimitteln an Bord. Diese Flotte ist im Grunde ein politisch motiviertes Medienereignis, organisiert von Anti-Israel-Aktivisten und extremen Islamisten unter einem Vorwand, den die Organisatoren als humanitäre Aktion darstellen wollen. Israel hat den Organisatoren der Flotte angeboten, die Fracht über den israelischen Hafen Aschdod nach Gaza zu transportieren. Seit Januar 2009 ist mehr als eine Million Tonnen an Hilfslieferungen in den Gaza-Streifen gebracht worden. Allein im ersten Vierteljahr 2010 wurden fast 100 000 Tonnen Hilfsgüter zur Verfügung gestellt, darunter 48 000 Tonnen Lebensmittel. Seit dem Waffenstillstand im Januar des vergangenen Jahres sind 133 Millionen Liter Kraftstoff von Israel in den Gaza-Streifen gebracht worden – das ist mehr als genug um den Tank jedes Autos und jedes Lastwagens in Israel zu füllen. Israel hat Lebensmittel, Medikamente, Kleidung und Schulbücher für alle Bewohner des Gaza-Streifens geliefert, aber die Hamas verlangt Zement für ihre Bunker. Israel transportiert Woche für Woche 15.000 Tonnen echter Hilfsgüter in den Gaza-Streifen. Einer Flotte, die angeblich 10000 Tonnen Zement an Bord hat, geht es also um etwas ganz Anderes. Internationale Hilfsorganisationen schicken ihre Hilfslieferungen über etablierte israelische Routen, während Publizity-Suchende lediglich das Thema menschlicher Hilfe missbrauchen, um Aufmerksamkeit für ihre eigenen Medienaktionen zu bekommen Israel möchte erneut betonen, dass, falls das israelische Angebot zurückgewiesen wird, es alle ihm zur Verfügung stehenden Mittel einsetzen wird, um die Schiffe daran zu hindern, sowohl israelisches als auch internationales Recht zu verletzen. Zwischen Israel und der Hamas, die die Kontrolle über den Gaza- Streifen übernommen hat, besteht ein bewaffneter Konflikt. Derzeit besteht eine Seeblockade vor der Küste des Gaza-Streifens. Diese Tatsache ist unter Berücksichtigung der Anforderungen des internationalen Rechts, ordnungsgemäß bekanntgemacht worden. Demzufolge ist es allen Schiffen, einschließlich zivilen Schiffen, strikt untersagt, in das von der Blockade betroffene Gebiet zu steuern.

The paper obviously was written before the Israeli military operation began.

A flotilla of six foreign ships has left european harbours heading for Gaza, with roughly 600 people and 10,000 tons of construction material and drugs aboard. This flotilla basically is a politically motivated media event, organised by anti-Israel activists and extremist Islamists, covered by a pretence that the organisers want to demonstrate to be a hmanitarian aid effort. Israel offered the organisers of this action to transport the goods via the harbour of Aschdod to Gaza. Since January 2009, more than a million tons of supplies have been brought to Gaza. In the first quarter of 2010 alone, 100,000 tons of supplies had been brought to Gaza, amongst them 48,000 tons of food. Since the armistice in January 2009, 133 million liters of fuel were brohght from Israel to Gaza - that is more than enough to fill the tank in every car and truck within all Israel. Israel delivered food, drugs, cloathing and school books for all inhabitants of Gaza, but hamas demands cement for its bunkers. Week for week, Israel transports 15,000 tons of supplies into Gaza. A fleet that is loaded with 10,000 tons of cement, obviously has different intentions (than aid). International aid organisations use established Israeli supply routes, while publicity-junkeys just abuse the issue of humanitarian aid to gain more media attention for their own purposes. Israel proclaims that if its offer to transport these goods gets rejected, it will use all tools and options available to it to hinder these ships to break both Israeli and international law. Between Israel and the Hamas, that has taken over control over Gaza, a state of armed military conflict exists. Currently, a state of blockade from the sea exists offshore the coast of Gaza. This fact has been correctly announced under explicit recognition of all demands ruled by internatonal law. therefore, all ships are strictly prohibited to steer into the sea area affected by that blockade.

Happy Times

05-31-10, 06:08 AM

Ship full of leftists, islamists and soldiers in a "peace cruise", what a freak show!:haha:

Seems the Israelis have casualties also, they should have torpedoed these terrorists.:hmmm:

Tribesman

05-31-10, 06:09 AM

I quoted those two Israeli papers only to give back a bit of a balnce to a thread that already has a very strong anti-Israeli undertone and bias.

Thats funny, most of the comments are about the Israeli government being so stupid and arrogant that they didn't wait until ships were within their claimed jurisdiction before they went playing silly buggers in front of the worlds cameras.

I claim that the PR fallout over this incident was the primary purprose behind assembling and sending out this flotilla.
Wow, you really think so?
Thats amazing, whodathunk a publicity stunt would be a publicity stunt.
Though the PR crowd must be wetting themselves laughing as not in their wildest dreams could they have expected the isreali government to be quite so stupid as they were.

but the Palestinian agendas as well of which thy are not only totally uncritical, but are actively engaged in glossing over them and preventing them from becomeing an object of objective analysis.
I think your hatred for anything remotely to do with muslims prevents any objective analysis on your part.

edit to addan official paper by the Israeli mission to the EU, on the background of this operation. I translate that paper afterwards.

An official statement from one party to the incident, the party that happens to have just screwed up massively. Take note of two words they used as justification in their own statement, two words they have just chosen to entirely ignore.

Happy Times

05-31-10, 06:12 AM

L.T

05-31-10, 06:21 AM

They can uphold the blocade, they can sink the ships, BUT THEY HAVE TO DO IT IN NATIONAL WATERS!!

Israel imposes a national blocade for national resons thats pretty ok with me....

But they simply cant attack ANY ship in International waters....

40 years ago Israel would have been in a state of war with Turkey from the second the first commando placed hes foot in the deck..

They should be darn glad that the Turks are going by Diplomacy.....

And remember. Any ship attacked in Internationals water have the RIGHT to deffend them self....So even if the activists shot first they had the RIGHT to do it because the ship was in INTERNATIONAL waters....:nope:

If the Israeli navy had waitet until national waters they would have all right to do anything to enforce the blocade.....

I dont have anything against Israel or any arab from any country my beef with this is about national / International waters and who have the right to do what in what waters....

If alowed by a majority of nations Israel have opend Pandaros box, If alowed to do this, we have to alow the somaly pirates to do there stuff...

Boarding any ship in international waters without being in a state of war is PIRACY!!

L.T

Happy Times

05-31-10, 06:25 AM

L.T

05-31-10, 06:34 AM

The Israelis probably view them as terrorists and they are not far from the truth.

I know im going abit over the top now..

So if i meet a finnish sailing boat in international waters and i belive that all finnish men are posible school yards shooters its ok that i attack and sink that finnish sailing boat??

I know thats a harsh way to put it but that scenario explains pretty good what will happen if we act on what we think and belive in....

You can think or belive all you want, you can like Jesus or manitou it dosent matter...

You can enforce your laws made by your belives in YOUR COUNTRY and in YOUR NATIONAL waters.....

international waters are NO GO exept in a state of war. Israel have not declared war at the vestbank or at the Gaza strip. Israel are NOT in a state of war with the paleastine people, they are fighting the same kind of war we (most euro countrys) are fighting in afghanistan.

And the above realy dont matter because like it or not, Israel attacked a TURKISH ship and we all know that Israel and Turkey are not IN A STATE OF WAR.......well not yet....

Happy Times

05-31-10, 06:39 AM

I know im going abit over the top now..

So if i meet a finnish sailing boat in international waters and i belive that all finnish men are posible school yards shooters its ok that i attack and sink that finnish sailing boat??

I know thats a harsh way to put it but that scenario explains pretty good what will happen if we act on what we think and belive in....

You can think or belive all you want, you can like Jesus or manitou it dosent matter...

You can enforce your laws made by your belives in YOUR COUNTRY and in YOUR NATIONAL waters.....

international waters are NO GO exept in a state of war. Israel have not declared war at the vestbank or at the Gaza strip. Israel are NOT in a state of war with the paleastine people, they are fighting the same kind of war we (most euro countrys) are fighting in afghanistan.

And the above realy dont matter because like it or not, Israel attacked a TURKISH ship and we all know that Israel and Turkey are not IN A STATE OF WAR.......well not yet....

If they are bound to go shoot in an Israeli schools the Finnish goverment should stop them.:dead:

And the Turkish goverment should have stopped this ship.

L.T

05-31-10, 06:54 AM

If they are bound to go shoot in an Israeli schools the Finnish goverment should stop them.:dead:

And the Turkish goverment should have stopped this ship.

Try to understand for me this is not Israel vs arabs, for me this is about the laws concerning international waters.

These ships was a signal to Israel about reconsider the blocade

If Israel have boarded in national waters 85% wouldnt even have bothered reading the news about this. The problem is that they have violatet international laws concerning international waters.

Further more they are actualy violating article 33 in the Genevakonvention about humanitarian aid but let that one rest because aint what i have problems with...

My problem is that Israel have boarded a ship in international waters thats it, not about the fighting over that piece of dessert the last 3000 years, Its about keeping to international law in international waters....

Join the Israeli navy :arrgh!: loads of YARR!!

International boardings supportet by our goverment

Im actualy sad on behalf of the involved Israeli service men and womans involved in this. There reputation shot to pieces because the fat guys with ties and prada shoes couldnt wait 3 hours...

Tribesman

05-31-10, 06:56 AM

And the Turkish goverment should have stopped this ship.
Leaving aside that these ships assemble elsewhere before heading to Gaza what grounds would Turkey have to detain the ships?
Has Turkey got an export ban on cement or medicines?
Should Turkey enforce Israels ban on fruit juice, should they remove any bottled water in case Israel decides to ban it again.?
Should they ensure no one on the ships has any of that evil terrorist errrrr.....chocolate???????

Happy Times

05-31-10, 07:00 AM

Try to understand for me this is not Israel vs arabs, for me this is about the laws concerning international waters.

These ships was a signal to Israel about reconsider the blocade

If Israel have boarded in national waters 85% wouldnt even have bothered reading the news about this. The problem is that they have violatet international laws concerning international waters.

Further more they are actualy violating article 33 in the Genevakonvention about humanitarian aid but let that one rest because aint what i have problems with...

My problem is that Israel have boarded a ship in international waters thats it, not about the fighting over that piece of dessert the last 3000 years, Its about keeping to international law in international waters....

Join the Israeli navy :arrgh!: loads of YARR!!

International boardings supportet by our goverment

Im actualy sad on behalf of the involved Israeli service men and womans involved in this. There reputation shot to pieces because the fat guys with ties and prada shoes couldnt wait 3 hours...

Yes, i understand what is your point and you are right.
Its just that why Israeli actions get all this hype when international law is been broken by everyone and all the time.

I still think those people on that ship should have known how it will end, they were very stupid, very fanatical or both.

L.T

05-31-10, 07:15 AM

Yes, i understand what is your point and you are right.
Its just that why Israeli actions get all this hype when international law is been broken by everyone and all the time.

I still think those people on that ship should have known how it will end, they were very stupid, very fanatical or both.

Because sailing in International waters require trust. No navy would ever be able to protect you all the time.

Recent time pirates have been cheap outfittet and many times pressed to commit those acts...

The state Israel choose to attack another nations ships that sailed under article 33 in the genevaconvention and in International waters.....

All this boils down to should we allow all nations to consider any national thread international

Should we give international waters free all to hes own....

Israel have made a huge mistake doing this in International waters, and they need to be correctet harsh by the rest of the world or we have to alow other nations or people to do the same....

Dimitrius07

05-31-10, 07:41 AM

Well you can always go to nearest jewish Sinanog and show your protest. Some sort of start always gooooooot :yeah:

NeonSamurai

05-31-10, 07:47 AM

Umm just a quick comment, but your typical blockade happens either in international or foreign national waters. That's what a blockade is. It wouldn't be a blockade if it happened in your own waters (as you don't usually blockade your own country). Many many countries have done similar both in the present and in the past and have boarded/sunk ships caught in such territories.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 07:53 AM

Well you can always go to nearest jewish Sinanog and show your protest. Some sort of start always gooooooot :yeah:

There are no synagogs where I live. There's very little diamond trading etc. here so I guess it makes sense for there to be very few or none Jewish here at all.

But it doesn't surprise me that a zionist like you would try to incite violence against Jews, isn't that how you guys operate to get more Jews to emigrate to the "holy land".

Oberon

05-31-10, 08:27 AM

I suspect this thread will go as well as the supply mission to Gaza.... :damn:

To be honest I was expecting some form of Israeli response, I didn't expect deaths to be fair, but I expected at least shots across the ships bow.

This will do great things for Israels global standing and further remove their US support. Victory for the organizers of the mission really. It was designed to provoke this kind of response and it did. Israel will be further out in the cold and those who seek the removal of Isreal from the planet will be further emboldened by the prospect of Israel not receiving support from any of its allies.

Tribesman

05-31-10, 08:42 AM

Umm just a quick comment, but your typical blockade happens either in international or foreign national waters.
Depends on how its set up, in this case Israel is "blockading" what it claims is within its own national jurisdiction.

Many many countries have done similar both in the present and in the past and have boarded/sunk ships caught in such territories.
You will have to find similar cases. Smuggling would be the closest but that is usually done with international agreement between all parties, in this case the "smuggling" is on items that most countries are saying should not be prohibited in the first place.
What makes it dodgy is that Israel claims the right of blockade under international law, that would have to be set up legally with the UN under 42, yet the UN is at the forefront in condemning the actions and itself has been pleading with Israel for two years to stop blocking shipments of cement(and water fuel food medicine clothes wood candles glass)

This will do great things for Israels global standing and further remove their US support. Victory for the organizers of the mission really. It was designed to provoke this kind of response and it did.
Yes, the protesters set it up and Israel duly complied with more relish than the protest organisers can possibly have hoped for.
On a funny note, did anyone spot that the protesters upped the backlash stakes by having two US flagged vessels. They are now on to the State Dept. to protect American interests against this "piracy"

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 08:44 AM

Skybird,

and you believe 100% what the Israeli media writes? You being a German I can sort of understand why you might do that.

i think one would be a fool to believe anything ANY media writes...

you see OTH the thing is:

when **** like this happens, there is their side of the story, your side of the story and the truth.

the media reports stories, not necessarily truth.

But it doesn't surprise me that a zionist like you would try to incite violence against Jews

Funny, i dont see any suggestion of violence anywhere in his post. Wonder why you would automatically associate protest with violence?

interesting.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 08:52 AM

Funny, i dont see any suggestion of violence anywhere in his post. Wonder why you would automatically associate protest with violence?

interesting.

Well at least here it's illegal to protest in the vicinity of places of worship. It's also common knowledge zionists don't like 'diaspora-Jews'. But hey, don't take my word for it.

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 08:54 AM

based upon historical data it would seem that your not such a big fan of Jews either.

or many other races / anything else requiring tolerance for that matter.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 08:56 AM

based upon historical data it would seem that your not such a big fan of Jews either.

or many other races / anything else requiring tolerance for that matter.

And you have a problem with blacks.

Edit. Oh, excuse me. I meant MONKEYS.

TLAM Strike

05-31-10, 08:58 AM

Early reports suggest that they were in international waters when the Israeli Navy boarded the ships.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01flotilla.html

They were 70 miles off the coast, that is not international waters that is within Israel's EEZ (Economic Exclusion Zone) in which they have the right to conduct fishing, mining etc. So the ship was in the EEZ with the intention of entering the Contiguous Zone, running the blockade and thus did not have the right of innocent passage.

Any see the video of one of these "Peaceful Activists" stabbing an IDF trooper in the back?

http://www.informationdissemination.net/2010/05/beware-early-reporting.html

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 09:02 AM

And you have a problem with blacks.

Edit. Oh, excuse me. I meant MONKEYS.

LOL and when have i ever said i have a "problem with blacks?"

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 09:05 AM

LOL and when have i ever said i have a "problem with blacks?"

Why would you need to admit it? And the proper term here in Subsim is MONKEYS.

Edit. And FYI, I don't hate Jewish people. I'm mostly indifferent towards them. I don't think I've ever in my life met a Jewish person in flesh, possibly walked by one on the street without knowing someone was Jewish.

I do have to say though that for some reason, not exactly sure why, my discussions on the internet with zionist Jews tend to take a very angry turn at some point.

Dowly

05-31-10, 09:12 AM

Can't say I'm going to miss you. :DL

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 09:13 AM

Why would you need to admit it? And the proper term here in Subsim is MONKEYS.

sure... if you can prove im racist against blacks beyond the shadow of doubt, i will change my signature to "Subsim's lil Racist bastard" and i will also call up one of my particularly black ex girlfriends and call her a monkey.

all for you OTH:har:

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 09:17 AM

I do have to say though that for some reason, not exactly sure why, my discussions on the internet with zionist Jews tend to take a very angry turn at some point.

thats what particularly confuses me about you

minute one: denouncing violence

Minute two: calling for it

:doh:

i think you might have Multiple Personality Disorder

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 09:20 AM

thats what particularly confuses me about you

minute one: denouncing violence

Minute two: calling for it

:doh:

i think you might have Multiple Personality Disorder

It's the zionist military that's engaging in the people killing business, or haven't you read the thread. :nope:

Enough responsing to trolls, I'll put you in ignore and that should settle it.

Dowly

05-31-10, 09:24 AM

It's the zionist military that's engaging in the people killing business, or haven't you read the thread. :nope:

Did you see the video TLAM Strike posted? The one taken onboard the vessel with the peace activist trying to stab the IDF soldier? The thing is, we don't know what happened onboard, so everything said here is just pure speculation.

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 09:25 AM

Enough responsing to trolls, I'll put you in ignore and that should settle it.

thank you :salute:

Did you see the video TLAM Strike posted? The one taken onboard the vessel with the peace activist trying to stab the IDF soldier? The thing is, we don't know what happened onboard, so everything said here is just pure speculation.

its like i said in the other post

there is their side of the story, your side of the story.... and then there is the truth.

LOL

Skybird

05-31-10, 09:26 AM

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3896611,00.html

Also, "help" organisation Free Gaza, which is asscociated with this flotilla, refused to rule out that they were transporting weapons, too.

I also read about the chants of the Turkish crowds when the waved farewell to the Turkish ship leaving the Turkish harbour for Cyprus and Gaza:

"Intifada! Intifada! Intifada!
Khaybar, Khaybar, oh Jews!
The army of Muhammad is coming upon you!”

Aid organisation, yeah sure. Peace activists, they say - useful idiots, I say.

Turkey since longer time now has lined up with rogue states like Syria and Iran, and tries to sharpen its profile within a coalition of Islamic and Palestinian terror organsiation, heading them and rivalling with Iran in trying to influence them. It's for no reason that since some time now I say that Turkey is no longer a trustworthy NATO ally and that both Washington and Europe would be well-adivsed to understand that Turkey since quite some years now is our enemy, comparing to the way Pakistan also tries to betray the world while boosting and cooperating with Islamic terrorism, and djihad ambitions. I personally think that Turkey must be kicked out of NATO. It was a solid and reliable ally during the cold war, I give them that - but that was a laizistic, Kemalistic Turkey. That experimental Turkey is almolst dead now. With the fundamental religious AKP taking over, it changed drastically, making it not only a rival or opponent, but an enemy to everthing we in the West try to defend in values, culture, and what NATO was founded for.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 09:28 AM

Did you see the video TLAM Strike posted? The one taken onboard the vessel with the peace activist trying to stab the IDF soldier? The thing is, we don't know what happened onboard, so everything said here is just pure speculation.

In international waters. They could've shot at the invading troops with a bazooka and still been within their rights.

Btw, I've never ignored anyone, how do you do it? Skybird, tell me oh high priest of ignoring, how do I go about ignoring people? :D

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 09:31 AM

Btw, I've never ignored anyone, how do you do it?

go to their profile and under the "user list" tab

select "add to ignore list"

Weiss Pinguin

05-31-10, 09:37 AM

Why would you need to admit it? And the proper term here in Subsim is MONKEYS.
Now you're just insulting the rest of us. Last I checked racism was a thing looked down on around here at subsim, can't remember the last time I saw someone refer to blacks, or anyone else for that matter, as monkeys. (Except for you) I also can't remember the last time Rivet said anything demeaning toward blacks, not sure why you decided to throw around the racist accusations.

But hey, keep going, it's fun watching someone dig their way into a hole.

Tribesman

05-31-10, 09:37 AM

They were 70 miles off the coast, that is not international waters that is within Israel's EEZ (Economic Exclusion Zone) in which they have the right to conduct fishing, mining etc. So the ship was in the EEZ with the intention of entering the Contiguous Zone, running the blockade and thus did not have the right of innocent passage.

Nice try, but epic fail.
You are trying to mix different parts of the law which don't mix, you have many seperate issues there.
You are jumping from territorial right through contiguous and out to EEZ and trying to drag things from territorial and contiguous with you even though they are firmly tied to their own zone.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 09:38 AM

go to their profile and under the "user list" tab

select "add to ignore list"

Nah, whatever. Can't be arsed.

But, think about it. Israel is being funded with US tax payer money. Israel gets more money from the US then any developing nation, plus private donations. Are they that badly off? Wouldn't you like to have that tax money in your own pocket?

HunterICX

05-31-10, 09:42 AM

Skybird

05-31-10, 09:53 AM

Well done, Israel :up:

Stupid activists, got what they deserved.

I hate thos leftish bastards that think they are above the rules.
funny that they are too the violent ones in most of their stupid actions.

Left and Right are pretty much the same, it's just that theire reasons differ for their stupidity.

they ignored the request to dock elswere and the good be checked and send further from there, they simply didn't cooperate and just resisted with violence sailing on the waves of Human Rights :roll:

they acted stupid and got their ass handed to them and I don't feel any bit sorry for that scum.

HunterICX
Yes, you just oversee that the PR victory that this provocation was designed for, has been scored by those leftists and hamasophile philantropists. Refusing to land in Ashdod and let the goods being controlled and then transported on land was part of that intention, because if they would have done that, there could not have been any showdown at sea that they wanted, and that now delivers Israel - although it seems to me that in principle Israel is right here - a major diplomatic disaster. You laugh about these people getting their ass handed to them. But in fact, they won this round by right getting their asses handed to them. more and more information gets leaked that indicates that the Israelis are right when they claim that aboard the ship the use of violence and weapons was prepared long in advance. The outcome of this operation is exactly what the Palestinians wanted!

It's a shooting and a media war going on. In the latter, the Palestinians excel (although the Mossad also is not shy in playing dirty). That also is a part of a wider concept of asymmetric warfare.

Wamiduku

05-31-10, 09:56 AM

Last I checked racism was a thing looked down on around here at subsim, Just want to get things clarified: Does this mean that it's not OK to hate someone because he/she was born in a black family, while it's perfectly OK to hate someone because he/she is born in a muslim family? I fail to see why one type of bigot should be better than the other.

Weiss Pinguin

05-31-10, 09:59 AM

Just want to get things clarified: Does this mean that it's not OK to hate someone because he/she was born in a black family, while it's perfectly OK to hate someone because he/she is born in a muslim family? I fail to see why one type of bigot should be better than the other.
No. (But I don't recall makings comments like this? :06: Unless you were just asking) One kind bigot is just as bad as the next.

Wamiduku

05-31-10, 10:11 AM

No. (But I don't recall makings comments like this? :06: Unless you were just asking) One kind bigot is just as bad as the next. I haven't seen you making comments like that either, so please don't take offense. I had Skybird's posts in mind. I've seen films from the south in the 1960s, where clan people make the most despicable speaches about blacks, but none of them were able to express their hatred with such intensity, such fervour as the white hot hate that's expressed in Skybird's posts about muslims.

Skybird

05-31-10, 10:16 AM

Hating people for their skin colour, their hair or the form of their eyes, is racism.

Being worried and/or finding disgusting the way people behave, the content of the ideologies they believe and that they put to life in the world you share with them, is no racism.

People really should stop to mistak the one with the other.

Molon Labe

05-31-10, 10:16 AM

Nice try, but epic fail.
You are trying to mix different parts of the law which don't mix, you have many seperate issues there.
You are jumping from territorial right through contiguous and out to EEZ and trying to drag things from territorial and contiguous with you even though they are firmly tied to their own zone.

I don't think boardings in the EEZ are legal. I think it has to be territorial waters.

Maybe the rules are a little bit different in a blockade zone...but, I'm guessing for such a blockade to officially exist in international waters there would have to be a UNSCR resolution under Chapter VII, and without such a resolution a state would be best to keep the blockade in territorial waters.

EDIT: at least under UNCLOS, boardings in the EEZ can be legal if done "in the exercise of its sovereign rights to explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources in the exclusive economic zone," but that obviously is not applicable here.

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 10:24 AM

Bilge_Rat

05-31-10, 10:29 AM

Wamiduku

05-31-10, 10:33 AM

Being worried and/or finding disgusting the way people behave, the content of the ideologies they believe and that they put to life in the world you share with them, is no racism. That would make things complicated in the case of the antisemites; Hating jews because of their race - bad thing. Hating them because of their religion - sure, why not? Sounds like hogwash to me.

Weiss Pinguin

05-31-10, 10:34 AM

That would make things complicated in the case of the antisemites; Hating jews because of their race - bad thing. Hating them because of their religion - sure, why not? Sounds like hogwash to me.
There's a difference between hating people who believe something and hating what they believe. I think for Skybird it's the latter, but I can't speak for him.

Oberon

05-31-10, 10:35 AM

I'm sitting here and I'm pondering the range of options open to Israel in dealing with the convoy. The category of using force against it is spread into different sections and methods of approach.
I personally, at first glance, would have allowed the ships to approach Israeli waters, and then halted them with a warship and fired a few shots across their bow...but then what? If the ships call the bluff and keep on steaming, what do you do? Any action other than backing down will result in casualties, particularly if, and it seems so, there were weapons on board the convoy (and that's got to be a big no-no against the convoys moral high ground) and if you back down then what precedent does that set? That any Tom, Dick or Mohammad with a boat can sail into Gaza and deliver whatever they want to people who will potentially attack you?
Whatever their choice in this matter, Israel would have lost, it was a no win situation.
Come to think of it...in this political climate, Israel is in an unsustainable position, eventually it will completely alienate itself and may find itself under heavy sanctions and perhaps a blockade of its own. Then what does it do?
Get invaded and overrun by Syria probably, and that's an epic victory for the anti-western factions of the Middle East who view Israel as being an extension of the West into the Middle East.

Not good for Israel, either way.

Bilge_Rat

05-31-10, 10:38 AM

The ship refused an order to turn back and the passenger and crew attacked the boarding party. Israel has nothing to apologize for, the boarding party of any other navy would have reacted the same way.

The left-wing activists on board a flotilla carrying aid to the Gaza Strip tried to lynch the Israel Navy commandos who stormed their Turkish-flagged ship early Monday, Israel Defense Forces sources told Haaretz.
The commandos, who intercepted the Turkish ferry Mavi Marmara after it ignored orders to turn back, said they encountered violent resistance from activists armed with sticks and knives. According to the soldiers, the activists threw one of their comrades from the upper deck to the lower after they boarded.

An Israeli military spokesman said some of the commandos were equipped with paintball guns but the non-lethal weapons were not enough against activists who charged in with batons.

"They had pistols with live ammunition as back-up, to defend themselves," he said.

One of the commandos told reporters he descended by rope from a helicopter onto one of the six ships in the convoy and was immediately attacked by a group of people waiting for them.

"They beat us with metal sticks and knives," he said. "There was live fire at some point against us."

A Reuters cameraman on the Israeli navy ship Kidon close to the six-vessel aid convoy said commanders monitoring the operation were surprised by the strong resistance put up by the pro-Palestinian activists.
One of the commandos said some of the soldiers were stripped of their helmets and equipment and a number were tossed from the top deck to a lower deck and then leapt into the sea to save themselves.

"They jumped me, hit me with clubs and bottles and stole my rifle," one of the commandos said. "I pulled out my pistol and had no choice but to shoot."
The soldiers said they were forced to open fire after the activists struck one of their comrades in the head and trampled on him. A senior field commander ordered the soldiers then to respond with fire, a decision which the commandos said received full backing the military echelon

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-commandos-gaza-flotilla-crew-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089

of course, the international news media will once again portray Israel as the only villain.

Molon Labe

05-31-10, 10:40 AM

actually the law of the sea has never been that clear:

http://www.slate.com/id/1007689

While I agree that the law of the sea isn't always clear, this article demonstrates the USCG complying with the terms of UNCLOS and supports the proposition that Israel was in the wrong if it boarded a ship in international waters.

When a suspicious vessel is identified at sea, the Coast Guard notifies the State Department, which then gets permission from the vessel's flag nation for the Coast Guard to board. (In the rare instances when permission is denied, the Coast Guard will generally monitor the vessel as it approaches U.S. territory.)

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 10:44 AM

There's a difference between hating people who believe something and hating what they believe. I think for Skybird it's the latter, but I can't speak for him.

What difference does it make in actuality? And it does seem like you are in fact trying to speak for him, really.

TLAM Strike

05-31-10, 10:45 AM

I don't think boardings in the EEZ are legal. I think it has to be territorial waters.

Maybe the rules are a little bit different in a blockade zone...but, I'm guessing for such a blockade to officially exist in international waters there would have to be a UNSCR resolution under Chapter VII, and without such a resolution a state would be best to keep the blockade in territorial waters.

Yes they can.

If the ship is suspected of carrying drugs it can be, unless the the country whose flag that the suspected ship is flying has no agreement with the country whose vessel wishes to conduct the search.

If they are suspected of doing something against the countries law governing its EEZ it can be bordered.

Article73
Enforcement of laws and regulations of the coastal State
1. The coastal State may, in the exercise of its sovereign rights to explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources in the exclusive economic zone, take such measures, including boarding, inspection, arrest and judicial proceedings, as may be necessary to ensure compliance with the laws and regulations adopted by it in conformity with this Convention.
2. Arrested vessels and their crews shall be promptly released upon the posting of reasonable bond or other security.
3. Coastal State penalties for violations of fisheries laws and regulations in the exclusive economic zone may not include imprisonment, in the absence of agreements to the contrary by the States concerned, or any other form of corporal punishment.
4. In cases of arrest or detention of foreign vessels the coastal State shall promptly notify the flag State, through appropriate channels, of the action taken and of any penalties subsequently imposed.They had authority to board them, authority to inspect and make sure they were not dumping ballast or waste water illegally etc. They were then attacked and responded.

If they found weapons or other good illegal in Territorial waters but not in the EEZ then its get iffy, they probably couldn't impound them until they sailed closer to shore. But they would know they were there, unless the crew tossed them over the side, either way the goods don't get past the blockade.

Jack Ryan: Maybe it's enough then just to get some people onboard and inspect it. Call it whatever
you want to... a Coast Guard safety inspection.

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 10:50 AM

What difference does it make in actuality? And it does seem like you are in fact trying to speak for him, really.

he is only giving his opinion as to what he thinks skybird means, he isnt speaking for anyone.

and it makes a substantial difference whether or not the ship was attacked in international waters or in domestic waters.

Yes they can.

If the ship is suspected of carrying drugs it can be, unless the the country whose flag that the suspected ship is flying has no agreement with the country whose vessel wishes to conduct the search.

If they are suspected of doing something against the countries law governing its EEZ it can be bordered.

im no expert on maritime law... but i would assume this to be the case

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 10:59 AM

he is only giving his opinion as to what he thinks skybird means, he isnt speaking for anyone.

Skybird should be able to defend his own xenophobic views. It's pretty lame if you guys need to help him along, and stuff.

Molon Labe

05-31-10, 11:01 AM

Yes they can.

If the ship is suspected of carrying drugs it can be, unless the the country whose flag that the suspected ship is flying has no agreement with the country whose vessel wishes to conduct the search.

If they are suspected of doing something against the countries law governing its EEZ it can be bordered.

They had authority to board them, authority to inspect and make sure they were not dumping ballast or waste water illegally etc. They were then attacked and responded.

If they found weapons or other good illegal in Territorial waters but not in the EEZ then its get iffy, they probably couldn't impound them until they sailed closer to shore. But they would know they were there, unless the crew tossed them over the side, either way the goods don't get past the blockade.

You're highlighting the wrong part of that article. Inspections in the EEZ are authorized only for limited purposes," in the exercise of its sovereign rights to explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources in the exclusive economic zone." There is no EEZ issue for a bunch of protestors headed to a blockade zone.

Here's another UNCLOS quote for you:

Article 58
Rights and duties of other States
in the exclusive economic zone

1. In the exclusive economic zone all States, whether coastal or land-locked, enjoy, subject to the relevant provisions of this Convention, the freedoms referred to in article 87 (http://www.hri.org/docs/LOS/part7-1a.html#art87) of navigation and overflight and of the laying of submarine cables and pipelines, and other internationally lawful uses of the sea related to these freedoms, such as those associated with the operation of ships, aircraft and submarine cables and pipelines, and compatible with the other provisions of this Convention. Article 87 is freedom of the high seas, including freedom of navigation.

Article 110
Right of visit

1. Except where acts of interference derive from powers conferred by treaty, a warship which encounters on the high seas a foreign ship, other than a ship entitled to complete immunity in accordance with articles 95 (http://www.hri.org/docs/LOS/part7-1a.html#art95) and 96 (http://www.hri.org/docs/LOS/part7-1a.html#art96), is not justified in boarding it unless there is reasonable ground for suspecting that:

the ship is engaged in piracy;
the ship is engaged in the slave trade;
the ship is engaged in unauthorized broadcasting and the flag State of the warship has jurisdiction under article 109 (http://www.hri.org/docs/LOS/part7-1b.html#art109);
the ship is without nationality; or
though flying a foreign flag or refusing to show its flag, the ship is, in reality, of the same nationality as the warship.

In the EEZ, you can add an f. (the subsim board converted the letter bullets to number bullets above) to this for ensuring it isn't exploiting exclusive resources. Nothing here is applicable in the instant case.

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 11:12 AM

Skybird should be able to defend his own xenophobic views. It's pretty lame if you guys need to help him along, and stuff.

I'm sorry, we're not trying to help him defend...

... We're trying to help you understand. With quite a bit of futility I might say.

I thought you were ignoring me?

Stick me on your ignore list, I guess I'll be #3 on that list... right next to logic and reason (giving you a ribbing there in case you don't see it)

TLAM Strike

05-31-10, 11:13 AM

You're highlighting the wrong part of that article. Inspections in the EEZ are authorized only for limited purposes," in the exercise of its sovereign rights to explore, exploit, conserve and manage the living resources in the exclusive economic zone." There is no EEZ issue for a bunch of protestors headed to a blockade zone. The Isrealis could easily claim they suspected the ship of dumping waste or what not, a violation of the "Conserve" part of the UNCOLS, "legally" board under that pretext to search for weapons.

05-31-10, 11:15 AM

The story is really simple.It was a planed provocation by so called peace activist which was created to achieve exactly this kind of outcome.
The Israeli solders did not expect to be attacked by angry mob of hundreds of people armed with iron clubs and Molotov cocktails.
So even thou the soliders are the best trained we have here they had to protect them selves.Imagine just all those people charging at you to beat you to death.
We had here cases of civilians and solders who by mistake entered Palestinian viliges and got literally teared apart by mob.
I know that no matter what i say (some)you will always think that we here bomb the Palestinians just for fun and because we simply hate them but the truth is very far from this.
Last time we tried to make peace with them and we let in PLO government to Gaza an Rammalh with no restrictions we had a bus full of civilians exploding every week in Jeusalem.
When we left Gaza aeria we had Katusha rockets failing every day on our cites.So we retaliated with real force after 2 years of this bombardment.
Needles to say every body was outraged how come we use such a force against poor Palestinians even thou the civilian casualties where minimal considering the scope of this military operation.
I as someone who served in IDF must say that the last thing that Israeli solders want is to kill innocent civilians.
And we are brainwashed to avoid it at all coast.
Also considering our European history we are against it morally.
You need also to understand that you cant fight cleanly against terrorist who are ready to use any dirty treak to achieve his goal.
We are here in kind of catch 22 situation....

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 11:31 AM

According to sources Henning Mankell was among the people who were shot. No info on his condition though. This is becoming kinda surreal.

For those who don't know who Henning Mankell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henning_Mankell) is, he is a Swedish writer. Mostly crime novels.

L.T

05-31-10, 11:36 AM

Any ship attacked in international waters have the right to deffend them self.

Whats right and whats wrong in the specific situation i dont care about.

They were boarded they have the right to deffend, like it or not....i dont like it but its there right...

all Israel had to do was to wait until national waters......

If Israel are alowed to do this, i will use my new right to start some boarding my self...

And in court i will deffend my self with "if they are alowed im alowed"

Bilge_Rat

05-31-10, 11:43 AM

trying to focus on the legality or legal justification of Israeli actions is probably fruitless. The law of the sea has always been nebulous and subject to interpretation by the stronger naval powers, especially when you are dealing with a blockade.

The U.S. decreed a naval blockade of 500 miles around Cuba in 1962. The U.S. Navy enforced a naval blockade of the CSA in 1861-65. The USCG used to regularly intercept, search and turn back in international waters boats carrying Haitian refugees.

The Royal Navy enforced a strict naval blockade around napoleonic europe and used to search all vesels sailing to and from Europe, including US vessels. This was one of the causes of the war of 1812.

Ultimately a Blockade is an act of war. Israel has decreed a naval blockade of Gaza, set out the rules and enforces it with its navy. Other countries can choose to respect the blockade or go to war with Israel.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 11:48 AM

trying to focus on the legality or legal justification of Israeli actions is probably fruitless. The law of the sea has always been nebulous and subject to interpretation by the stronger naval powers, especially when you are dealing with a blockade.

Except of course when it's about Somali pirates, then Bilge Rat will be nowhere around saying things like "The law of the sea has always been nebulous..." etc.

Dowly

05-31-10, 11:52 AM

Weiss Pinguin

05-31-10, 11:53 AM

Except of course when it's about Somali pirates, then Bilge Rat will be nowhere around saying things like "The law of the sea has always been nebulous..." etc.
I always thought the law when it came to pirates was "Hang 'em all"... Unless you're Russia, and then it's 'Set 'em all adrift' ;)

L.T

05-31-10, 12:04 PM

The ship refused an order to turn back and the passenger and crew attacked the boarding party. Israel has nothing to apologize for, the boarding party of any other navy would have reacted the same way.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israeli-commandos-gaza-flotilla-crew-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089

of course, the international news media will once again portray Israel as the only villain.

But the main isue for me is not who it is its how they did it...

You are sailing on a cargo ship in international waters, suddenly someone boards you. You have the right to deffend your self.

My problem with this situation is WHERE they boarded not who....It could be a Danish navy ship or a royal navy ship...it dosent matter....

You have a national navy ship boarding another nations ship in international waters, that is piracy...

You cant impose national law in international waters EXEPT if you are at a state of war, and Israel is not at war with turkey....

If the Israeli navy had waitet until they were in national water i wouldnt have had a problem with all this...

But they cant deffend them self with "they attacked us" simply because they commitet an act of piracy and every single soul on the ship was in there right to deffend them self.....

If they had waitet until national waters they were in there right to well even sink the damn ship...

But fair or not, they comittet an act of piracy they ended up in a fight but no one can blame anyone on the ship....

Even if they were met with RPG`s and AK-47`s the situation is the same, in international waters any ship have the right to deffend them self.....

There is only one to blame for all this and that the moron who told them to engage before national waters, That person is actualy a candidate for the Haag tribunal...

Ordered an act of piracy
Stopping a aid transport protectet by article 33 of the geneva convention
Killing people in international waters..

If we alow Israel or any nation to do this we can call of any hunt or chase of any pirate in any international water....

I realy dont care who did it, my anger would be the same....someone did it using national law as excuse and it should not happen....

L.T

Molon Labe

05-31-10, 12:05 PM

Ultimately a Blockade is an act of war. Israel has decreed a naval blockade of Gaza, set out the rules and enforces it with its navy. Other countries can choose to respect the blockade or go to war with Israel.

I think that's a pretty good point. These guys more or less chose to enter the war on Hamas' side. The boarding at this point appears to be illegal (although I wouldn't be surprised if, in a day or two, we find out this took place in Israeli waters after all), but if the Israeli response to that is simply "so what?" then that might be the end of that. They're violating the UN charter, but so is everyone else these days because there are never any consequences for doing so.

EDIT: and another thing, it would be the Turks that are first to complain about the assault on a ship bearing their flag....but it was the Turks themselves that had the power to prevent this by detaining the ship before it attempted to run the blockade. They do have jurisdiction over ships of their own flag, after all.

@TLAM: I'm talking about what is actually justified under international law. What a power can get away with if they want to be shady, dishonest, and (frankly) cowardly is another matter altogether.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 12:11 PM

I always thought the law when it came to pirates was "Hang 'em all"... Unless you're Russia, and then it's 'Set 'em all adrift' ;)

Well the difference between the Somali pirates and Israelis is that the Somali pirates didn't murder people.

Molon Labe

05-31-10, 12:12 PM

Well the difference between the Somali pirates and Israelis is that the Somali pirates didn't murder people.

They've murdered at least two.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 12:15 PM

They've murdered at least two.

Very little when compared to the Israelis. And they themselves have been killed so, it's not like they haven't been punished. Any guess if the Israelis will get any punishment? How many will be shot?

Dowly

05-31-10, 12:24 PM

They've murdered at least two.

There's also the 250+ hostages they are keeping atm. Don't think they gonna just let them go if they don't get the ransom money. :hmmm:

Bilge_Rat

05-31-10, 12:31 PM

EDIT: and another thing, it would be the Turks that are first to complain about the assault on a ship bearing their flag....but it was the Turks themselves that had the power to prevent this by detaining the ship before it attempted to run the blockade. They do have jurisdiction over ships of their own flag, after all.

yes, but Turkey will not do anything. Israel and Turkey have close ties. Turkish politicians will bluster for a few days, Netenyahu may have to do some grovelling, the UN will pass resolutions condemning Israel (what else is new :shifty:), but things will be back to normal soon enough.

Ultimately, everyone is more worried about Hamas than Israel. If the world is not going to go to war over the torpedoing of a South Korean vessel, which was clearly an act of war, they will not go to war over this.

L.T

05-31-10, 12:37 PM

Its werry rare to se a debate about soemthing like this being so polite. Im thrilled about the maturity posters have and its only a minority who work the racist anti Israel stuf.

In general you can se that most people like me are concerned about the part of boarding a ship in international waters. Its hard not to mention Israel since they kinda are the piwates here.:arrgh!:

Those deffending those who attacked the commandos are not Hamas supporters or neo nazis, they are world citicens who are relugtant to accept that you can board a ship in international waters without being in a state of war with the nation who owns the ship.

Most here also accept that if this happend in national waters they wouldnt have had a problem with it.

This atleast for me is not some anti Israel crusade. I dont support terrorists. I dont support piracy i belive in human rights and in the geneva konventions.

Was the agenda of the ships wrong, in the big picture proberbly, knowing what could come out of it. Was the persons wrong to attack the commandos, in general yes...but they were in there right (abusing it ot not) they have the right to deffend the ship

But what i belive is not worth anything. I live by national and international laws, i have to keep my self within those laws. If i break those laws i know i can be punnished either by national laws or international laws.

If we accept that international laws can be broken to uphold national laws there is no reson for the UN, NATO or any international cooperation, to exist every man for him self.

You cant accept international laws being selective " he cant do it but im alowed" then you remove the foundation for any law ever made in every country. We have agreed on International laws we have to follow them or there is no reson for them to exists..

Again im impressed by the calm tone in this topic and im enjoying being part of it :rock:

L.T

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 12:40 PM

yes, but Turkey will not do anything. Israel and Turkey have close ties. Turkish politicians will bluster for a few days, Netenyahu may have to do some grovelling, the UN will pass resolutions condemning Israel (what else is new :shifty:), but things will be back to normal soon enough.

Ultimately, everyone is more worried about Hamas than Israel. If the world is not going to go to war over the torpedoing of a South Korean vessel, which was clearly an act of war, they will not go to war over this.

Yes, you are North Korea. It's suddenly very clear to me.

05-31-10, 12:53 PM

But how do you deal with people who are using liberal law to they dirty benefits.
How do you deal with some one who is using European freedom of speech to call against European way of life.
How do you deal with terrorist who use those laws against the very people who passed them?
He is acting whithin the law....
Not everything is black and white.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 12:55 PM

05-31-10, 01:00 PM

Right...you are really OneToughHerring:zzz:

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 01:07 PM

Right...you are really OneToughHerring:zzz:

The one and only.

Btw the whole stolen passport - debacle is still fresh at least in my memory, first that and now this. Looks like Israel has really commenced on a new murderous campaign of terror.

05-31-10, 01:14 PM

The one and only.

Btw the whole stolen passport - debacle is still fresh at least in my memory, first that and now this. Looks like Israel has really commenced on a new murderous campaign of terror.
Against who-Innocent women and children???
You just believe what you choose or are toughed to believe i dont think i will change your mind.
You can also believe that we steal Palestinians body organs for transplants in hospitals.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 01:17 PM

Against who-Innocent women and children???
You just believe what you choose or are toughed to believe i dont think i will change your mind.
You can also believe that we steal Palestinians body organs for transplants in hospitals.

Isn't that kind of heresy, for a Jewish Israeli to call them Palestinians since there is no Palestine? Shouldn't you call them something like, untermench?

Bilge_Rat

05-31-10, 01:21 PM

Yes, you are North Korea. It's suddenly very clear to me.

Are you interested in a debate or just in posturing? If I see any evidence of the former, I will be glad to have a serious debate of these issues with you or anyone lese.

Everyone is sorry people were killed. The IDF was not planning to kill anyone, it just wanted to enforce its blockade, which would have meant turning the ship around or taking it to an Israeli port until it could be turned over to its owners. The participants decided to actively resist and it ended as you would expect when a group of untrained civilians decide to take on military professionals.

This will have absolutely zero impact on Israel, since every major power, no matter what public statements they put out, will analyse the situation exactly as I did. International politics has never been and will never be a matter of right and wrong, it is always a question of national interests.

05-31-10, 01:30 PM

Isn't that kind of heresy, for a Jewish Israeli to call them Palestinians since there is no Palestine? Shouldn't you call them something like, untermench?
We call them Palestinians since we accepted that they are Palestinians and we WANT them to have their own state
...but without buses blowing up and Katusha rockets falling here.
The problem is that they are led by bunch of terrorists.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 01:33 PM

Are you interested in a debate or just in posturing? If I see any evidence of the former, I will be glad to have a serious debate of these issues with you or anyone lese.

Everyone is sorry people were killed. The IDF was not planning to kill anyone, it just wanted to enforce its blockade, which would have meant turning the ship around or taking it to an Israeli port until it could be turned over to its owners. The participants decided to actively resist and it ended as you would expect when a group of untrained civilians decide to take on military professionals.

This will have absolutely zero impact on Israel, since every major power, no matter what public statements they put out, will analyse the situation exactly as I did. International politics has never been and will never be a matter of right and wrong, it is always a question of national interests.

The Holocaust of the Jews wasn't about right or wrong either then.

Bilge_Rat

05-31-10, 01:43 PM

The Holocaust of the Jews wasn't about right or wrong either then.

Exactly, we had God, the law and the "right" on our side, did that protect us? How many countries opened their borders to let the jews in during the thirties? How many countries lifted a finger to help jews during the war?

Jews figured out a long time ago that being on the "right" side of a machinegun is more important than being on the "right" side of the law.

05-31-10, 01:46 PM

The Holocaust of the Jews wasn't about right or wrong either then.
No...it was about unhappy mad man who wanted to be a painter and a certain expoloits of human nature.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 01:46 PM

Exactly, we had God, the law and the "right" on our side, did that protect us? How many countries opened their borders to let the jews in during the thirties? How many countries lifted a finger to help jews during the war?

Jews figured out a long time ago that being on the "right" side of a machinegun is more important than being on the "right" side of the law.

Well if the Jewish Holocaust doesn't mean anything then stop stealing other people's countries then, thank you in advance.

05-31-10, 01:55 PM

Well if the Jewish Holocaust doesn't mean anything then stop stealing other people's countries then, thank you in advance.
What country did we steal?
Who knows if it wasn't for certain people that believe in scary middle age stories about Jews we would not had returned to OUR country.

Bilge_Rat

05-31-10, 01:58 PM

Well if the Jewish Holocaust doesn't mean anything then stop stealing other people's countries then, thank you in advance.

now you are just being even more ridiculous than usual......:arrgh!:

Oberon

05-31-10, 01:59 PM

now you are just being even more ridiculous than usual......:arrgh!:

That even possible? :hmmm:

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 01:59 PM

What country did we steal?
Who knows if it wasn't for certain people that believe in scary middle age stories about Jews we would not had returned to OUR country.

Some part of Finns originate from a place in modern day Russia near the river Volga, does that mean that we own that place, even today? God damn, you know how difficult it's going to be to convince the Russians that they should give our "holy land" back to us just because Palestine was given to the Jews by the Brits?

Weiss Pinguin

05-31-10, 02:02 PM

That even possible? :hmmm:
Before today I wouldn't have thought it possible, but not anymore :hmmm:

msxyz

05-31-10, 02:04 PM

Ultimately a Blockade is an act of war. Israel has decreed a naval blockade of Gaza, set out the rules and enforces it with its navy. Other countries can choose to respect the blockade or go to war with Israel.The establishment of the so called "line of death" was among the chief causes of the Lybia bombing of 1986 (Bombing that even some NATO, pro-US, countries condemmned). At the time, Lybia supported several guerrilla groups in the middle east, so -from a rational point of view- the US just tried to "teach a rogue nation a lesson". What is wrong in that?

Since we're speaking about blockades and alleged acts of piracy, the entrance of the US into WW1 was mostly the result of Germany unrestricted warfare against British and Britain inbound ships . Again, Germany -from a rational point of view- was just trying to starve an enemy into submission by cutting off its sea lanes. What was wrong in that?

If histhory serves to teach men something, that would be the mistakes.

What some people, politicians and nations fail to comprehend that brute force alone will win battles on the field but will cause wars to be lost.

So what? A merry band of zealots, an uncanny coalition of pacifists, pro-Palestine activists and idiotic do-gooders challenge the directives of a nation.

And what do they get, in return? They're met with brute force (provoked or not... that's not the point)

The ship was from Turkey (a NATO country and -formally- an ally of Israel)
The ship was still in international waters
The blockade is unilateral

The Israeli government stepped into a obvious trap that futher tarnished its image. They proved in front of the international media to be capable of ruthless actions and to pursue their goals regardless of the international laws.

I'm not saying other countries don't do the same but a measure of restraint is necessay not to mention that by alienating the public sympathies they will loose international support.

They won this battle but lost another bit of credibility. Sooner or later they will reach a point where the international public opinion will be totally indifferent if some trigger happy nutjob from a nearby countriy will decide to test his newly acquired nuclear arsenal against this antipatic country. A point will be reachen where people will just shrug and say "they deserved that". A lot of people in Europe are starting to think like this...

Merchant Raider

05-31-10, 02:10 PM

I think that the two sides in that region have gone beyond what we would call civilised,
And countrys that side with one or the other should send there troops to sort it out and take the hits instead of peace people

tater

05-31-10, 02:18 PM

Had a feeling it was going to end this way. It's always the way it ends when people without guns try to stand up against people with guns.

The commandos were armed with paintball guns and side arms.

After being attacked, they opened fire with their sidearms.

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 02:20 PM

The commandos were armed with paintball guns and side arms.

After being attacked, they opened fire with their sidearms.

How about a link?

Dowly

05-31-10, 02:24 PM

Would like a link too. Tho, I'm pretty sure a sort of an paintball gun with special ammo is used in law enforcement all around the world. :hmmm:

05-31-10, 02:24 PM

The thing is that no matter what Israel does it is always portrayed by media as a big bully that bombs poor Palestinian civilians with F-16s
When we tired to pick the terrorist that are responsible for planing suicidal attacks we got condemned by media that we kill freedom fighters.
When we took on Gaza to clean it of hammas after 2 years of every day rocket bombing we where made bad guys that kill women and children- by Turks since they have to keep happy the Muslim public.
No matter what we do -we are the strong that is killing the poor weak Palestinians which is exactly what hammas and other extremists want you to think.
They use the human rights laws to their benefit now while they have no regards for such laws.

As for the paintball guns it is true-but you dont have to beleve me.

tater

05-31-10, 02:27 PM

How about a link?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

Look at 52 seconds, it's clearly a paintball gun.

A few seconds later you can see they all are armed the same way.

They were attacked from the moment they landed, too, and returned fire with paintball guns, apparently until one was stabbed.

Bilge_Rat

05-31-10, 02:27 PM

How about a link?

here you go.

An Israeli military spokesman said some of the commandos were equipped with paintball guns but the non-lethal weapons were not enough against activists who charged in with batons.
"They had pistols with live ammunition as back-up, to defend themselves," he said. The IDF said it had confiscated two pistols from the boat.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-navy-commandos-gaza-flotilla-activists-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089

OneToughHerring

05-31-10, 02:28 PM

Would like a link too. Tho, I'm pretty sure a sort of an paintball gun with special ammo is used in law enforcement all around the world. :hmmm:

Well it was in Wikipedia so it might be true. Would make sense for them to use non-lethal stuff like pepper shots (?) or something to stun etc. But ~19 dead? It's still a massacre.

Dowly

05-31-10, 02:28 PM

Thanks Tater & BR. :up:

@OTH

Like I said earlier, we don't know what happened onboard, we can only guess. But clearly, looking at the vid Tater posted, things got out of hand badly.

Bilge_Rat

05-31-10, 02:47 PM

here is another report, from the Jpost:

"They came for war,” was how one Israeli Navy commando described the activists aboard the Mavi Marmara Turkish passenger boat where clashes erupted early Monday morning and ended with at least nine activists dead and dozens others, including eight IDF soldiers, injured.

“Operation Sea Breeze”, as it was called by the IDF, actually began several hours earlier at about 11 pm Sunday night as the Navy made its initial contact with the Mavi Marmara and the other five ships which were part of an international aid flotilla on its way to try and break the Israel-imposed sea blockade on Gaza.

After several hours of radio communications and warnings that the Mavi Marmara would be boarded if the captain did not change his ship’s course, at 4 am Monday, OC Navy Vice-Admiral Eliezer “Cheney” Marom, who had set up a command post on the INS Victory, gave the order to Flotilla 13 to board the ship.

The three Israeli Air Force Blackhawk Helicopters hovering nearby made their approach above the Mavi Marmara’s upper deck. Sitting on board, the naval commandos could just make out the few dozen activists gathered below. Carrying non-lethal weapons as well as pistols, the last thing the soldiers thought they would walk into was a well-planed lynch.

“As the 15 of us slid down the ropes, 30 of them were waiting for us on the deck,” one of the commandos later told reporters. “They charged us and threw a few of the soldiers off the deck to the floor below. We did not expect to find ourselves in such a situation.”

The assessment within the Navy was that the activists would resist the Israeli takeover of their ship but along the lines of the demonstrations the IDF faces weekly in the West Bank where Palestinians protest against the security barrier. Rocks and punches would be thrown as well as an occasional knife but not the extent of violence they met.

As the rope fell from the helicopter onto the Mavi Marmara’s deck, some of the Turkish activists grabbed it, tied it to an antenna likely hoping that it would bring down the helicopter. The Navy commandos decided to still go ahead with the operation and began sliding down onto the ship.

Armed with rifles that could shoot paintballs – which can hurt but not kill – the soldiers landed on the ship and immediately came under attack by dozens of activists armed with knives, bats and metal pipes. Activists grabbed soldiers and tried to hold them hostage, stripping them of their helmets and equipment.

One of the soldiers tried to protect a commando who was being lynched by a group of activists. They were instructed by the flotilla commander to refrain from using their sidearm unless their lives were at risk.

Soldiers feared for their lives, asked permission to open fire

The force threw several stun grenades but the violent attacks continued. Two soldiers were injured and some of the activists succeeded in stealing one of the soldier’s guns. Shots were fired and one of the soldiers fell to the ground unconscious. Fearing for their lives, the soldiers asked and received permission to open fire, first taking aim at the activists’ feet.

In one corner of the ship, the commandos saw a gun flash. They returned fire and started chasing the shooter but could not find him.

As the clashes intensified, additional commandos boarded the ship as well as members of the Border Police’s Yasam unit who are experts in riot control and crowd dispersion. After less than an hour, the ship was in Israeli hands. The price though was steep – eight soldiers were injured, several of them seriously and at least nine activists were killed.

By the evening, the naval commandos were back at their base in northern Israel and had begun their debriefing.

The videos taken by the IDF were passed around throughout the defense establishment and made their way to other special forces, including the Israel Police’s elite counter-terror unit Yamam, which had fought to participate in the mission but had been left on the sidelines due to legal complications involving police operations out at sea.

“The soldiers acted with the utmost nobility,” said one police source close to the Yamam. “They engaged in hand-to-hand combat, sustained injuries, but only opened fire after one of them was lying on the ground unconscious and two others had been shot. This was an unbelievable demonstration of restraint.”

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=177040

I'm sure more info will come out over the next few days, but it sounds more like a botched raid than anything else.

Bilge_Rat

05-31-10, 03:39 PM

This is part of a longer opinion piece, but it carries interesting facts which show the thinking of Israel and why it decided to stop the flotilla.

First, it made the claim that the Gaza Strip was not suffering from a humanitarian crisis and that the thousands of tons in supplies that the ships were carrying were not really needed, since it was all already supplied to the Palestinians by Israel. The IDF went so far as to invite media down to the Kerem Shalom crossing to videotape the hundreds of trucks that transfer supplies daily from Israel to Gaza. At the same time, Israel offered to transfer the shipments on the boats to the Gaza Strip after they were unloaded at the Ashdod Port and inspected.

Next, it tackled the delegitimization effort. Stories were leaked by the government to the press about the Turkish Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH), the Turkish organization that is behind the flotilla, described as a “radical Islamic organization” that was outlawed by Israel in 2008 for allegedly serving as a major component in Hamas’s global fund-raising machine.

In addition to this effort, the long-standing claim was restated that if this flotilla were allowed to enter Gaza, it would open the door to unsupervised shipments that could contain not just flour, cement and medical supplies but also explosives, Kalashnikov rifles and Iranian-made, long-range Fajr-5 missiles.

(...)

Israel had other options. One was to stop the ships far out at sea, inspect them, maybe even arrest a terror suspect or two if there were such aboard, and then let the ships sail freely into Gaza.

Another option was to simply let the ships through unchecked. In the absence of intelligence indicating that the ships were carrying arms, the risk might not have been that great. Yes, it could have paved the way for additional flotillas, but all of these could be inspected by the navy, which would be tasked with ruling out the possibility that arms were being smuggled in by sea.

Let’s not fool ourselves. Even if Israel allowed these ships and all such ships to dock in Gaza City’s harbor, it would still be accused of laying siege to the Palestinians in the Strip since, albeit along with Egypt, it controls the land crossings.

http://www.jpost.com/Israel/Article.aspx?id=176936

TheSatyr

05-31-10, 04:35 PM

Simple solution. Give the Island of Crete to the Palestinians. Some scientists believe that Minoan refugees were the original Palestinians.

Crete is a hell of a lot nicer than that desert they are fighting over.

CaptainHaplo

05-31-10, 04:56 PM

Examine what we know of this "incident" and take the "moralistic" and political leanings out of it - and here is what you have at the end of the day.

Israel determines that a region in dispute must be blockaded, and announces the blockade to the world.

Another country decides that they wish to tacitly and unofficially support those in the region in question. They send ships in convoy carrying prohibited materials with the stated intent to have those vessels violate the blockade.

Israel takes reasonable action (without violence) to have the convoy change course and avoid a confrontation.

Convoy refuses, making a choice to knowingly advance into a situation they are warned will create a response.

Israel chooses to enforce its blockade via deployment of trained combatants using non-lethal weapons.

Passengers/crew of the convoy choose to escalate the matter by using lethal force, to which Israel to responds in kind. The video makes it clear that the actions of the people on the ship chose to escalate the matter.

Now people whine because "innocent" people have been hurt. Thats like saying a guy knows its my house, he chooses to break in, I catch him trying to jimmy the door, warn him to bugger off, he comes at me with a knife and I shoot him dead - he was innocent and I am somehow wrong. Sorry - doesn't fly.

As for the legality of the boarding - there is no question - it was legal. The captain of the ship that was boarded made it clear it was his intent to violate the blockade order. His refusal to divert - knowing that the UN Security Council has not deemed the blockade illegal (and thus it IS legal at the moment) -the Encyclopedia Britannica as: "an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts.

Now - since Gaza is controlled by Hamas, an entity that has in its charter a calling for the destruction of Israel, it becomes obvious that the blockade is in fact a facet of the ongoing "war" - or conflict between Israel and Hamas. Thus, the captain of the vessel, by refusing to divert, intentionally notified Israel his intent to aid and succor an enemy of their nation. They had every legal right to just fire a Gabriel or 3 at each ship and watch the burn and sink.

The big question I have seen posted here was "wasn't it illegal to do this in international waters?" No - while it would have been illegal to do it in any other nation's national waters, on the high seas your actions and intent no longer fall under the protections of the flag you fly or the ship is registered under. Doubt it? Look at history. US merchants and at least one warship were sunk prior to the US entry into WW2 - purely because they were acting in support of the German enemy (Britain). Yet such actions, while denounced - were not considered acts of war since in essence the US was a "silent" partner already at war by its actions.

Legally speaking, the turkish flagged ships were in violation of international maritime law by their notification of intent to bypass a legal blockade. Thus, they made themselves legitimate targets in international waters. Unfortunate incident, but the morons involved decided to they wanted to prove a point, and in so doing chose to intentionally provoke and then attack armed forces, and now want to cry about it....

Well...... all I can say to that is......

WAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH.

Now get over it - ya did it to yourself.

Skybird

05-31-10, 05:01 PM

Simple solution. Give the Island of Crete to the Palestinians. Some scientists believe that Minoan refugees were the original Palestinians.

Hey...!!! :stare: Although German politicians have made the proposal that the Greeks should sell their islands to make some money in their debt crisis, nobody ever said they should give them away for free...!!! :arrgh!:

Madox58

05-31-10, 05:15 PM

When you know there is a blockade,
and you try to run it knowing you'll get boarded.
If you were totally innocent?
Why would you fight it in any way?
You'd win if you were innocent!
This only shows the true mentality of those on board.
They set out to cause this situation!
Hopeing the media would do as it has done.
The Media is only a Tool now days.
But they do not realize how much of a Tool they are.
Being a blockade?
I'd have sunk every ship in the convoy!
What part did they not understand about blockade?

AngusJS

05-31-10, 05:17 PM

Good job Israel. :nope:

And yet again, no matter what the Israeli government does, it's practically applauded for it.

Madox58

05-31-10, 05:20 PM

I applaud them for restraint.

Dowly

05-31-10, 05:21 PM

Good job Israel. :nope:

And yet again, no matter what the Israeli government does, it's practically applauded for it.

You did see the video tater posted, right? The one where the people onboard the ships grab the descending IDF soldiers and start beating them with metal rods? If they were innocent they prolly wouldn't have done that, now would they?

And like stated and again, by watching the video comes clear, they (IDF) were armed with non-lethal weapons, only after they are starting to get beat they draw out their secondary weapons (pistols) and start shooting.

Madox58

05-31-10, 05:28 PM

Having been in somewhat of the same situation years ago?
There would be a way higer body count had I been there!

I have no sorrow for so called pieceful missions
that are nothing more then missions to use the Media to ends
that we are seeing.

The guilty ones are the Media in all ways!
They want news, and the dumb arses provide it.

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 06:21 PM

You did see the video tater posted, right? The one where the people onboard the ships grab the descending IDF soldiers and start beating them with metal rods? If they were innocent they prolly wouldn't have done that, now would they?

Grab a coast guardsman and start whipping his ass during a safety inspection or some other interdiction.

see how well that ends.

:haha:

AngusJS

05-31-10, 06:28 PM

You did see the video tater posted, right? The one where the people onboard the ships grab the descending IDF soldiers and start beating them with metal rods? If they were innocent they prolly wouldn't have done that, now would they?

And like stated and again, by watching the video comes clear, they (IDF) were armed with non-lethal weapons, only after they are starting to get beat they draw out their secondary weapons (pistols) and start shooting.I did. The commandos shouldn't have been on the ship in the first place. That's the point.

Do you have a right to defend your ship which is being boarded illegally? If a US or Finnish ship was boarded, would they not have that right?

Madox58

05-31-10, 06:31 PM

If you do not fall to your knees and do not resist?
Your guilty!

You can cry all you want later.
As is going on now.
10 dead?
You are lucky people!

Tribesman

05-31-10, 06:51 PM

As for the legality of the boarding - there is no question - it was legal.
It would be legal if it was legal, but as it wasn't it isn't. Its outside their jurisdiction and absent of the neccesary international agreement.

But I see the problem you have....
His refusal to divert - knowing that the UN Security Council has not deemed the blockade illegal (and thus it IS legal at the moment)
....you are getting the order of things backwards. Since they have not deemed it legal it remains illegal.
In fact a selection of the the words the UN use about the blockade is unacceptable, unjustifiable, counterproductive and errrr....illegal.

"an act of war by which a belligerent prevents access to or departure from a defined part of the enemy’s coasts.

enemy's coast???
what is the legal status of the Palestinian territories:har:

Doubt it? Look at history. US merchants and at least one warship were sunk prior to the US entry into WW2 -
Totally irrelevant, maritime law has been changed massively since 1941.:doh:

Legally speaking, the turkish flagged ships were in violation of international maritime law by their notification of intent to bypass a legal blockade.
On the legal issues it appears you havn't the faintest idea what you are talking about.

Tribesman

05-31-10, 06:55 PM

If you do not fall to your knees and do not resist?
Your guilty!

Wow police, judge and jury all in one..... Or just sensationalist crap.

TLAM Strike

05-31-10, 09:03 PM

Has anyone read the San Remo Manual on International Law of Armed Conflict at Sea (http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/52d68d14de6160e0c12563da005fdb1b/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce%21OpenDocument)? No? I don't blame you its 30 pages of boring, but it is suposta be an important legal paper.

Well here is the good stuff:

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 09:12 PM

TLAM Strike FTW!:salute:

CaptainHaplo

05-31-10, 10:02 PM

Excellent post TLAM!

Stealth Hunter

05-31-10, 10:06 PM

http://h.imagehost.org/0292/1275347155752.png

VonHesse

05-31-10, 10:24 PM

http://h.imagehost.org/0292/1275347155752.png

:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::har::har: :har:

Hilarious!!!

AngusJS

05-31-10, 10:31 PM

What if the blockade itself is illegal?

Stealth Hunter

05-31-10, 10:41 PM

What if the blockade itself is illegal?

Then it all was pointless for Israel to begin with. And they're in a heap of trouble. From what I've heard and been reading, the Israelis opened fire with the paintball guns they had on the humanitarian aid workers and injured a few of them, then were stormed by the rest. The Turks on board were screaming at them not to shoot because they were "raising the white flag!"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10199480.stm

Well that must excuse it. After all, if I break into your house and shoot you with a beanbag gun before racking up the buckshot after you hit me with a chair, it's you that's in the wrong...

Humanitarian aid ships used to be considered under the old articles of naval warfare as sacred as hospital ships, particularly when they belonged to a private organization or sponsored organization (like the Red Cross). Don't think they've changed that part since the Great War, except maybe for ones carrying ammunition and firearms (which, aside from a bunch of kitchen cutlery and a "Prince of Persia"-looking dagger, they never found any pistols or rifles or anything).

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 10:47 PM

What if the blockade itself is illegal?

So far, based on this threads posts, it would appear that the UN has ruled the blockade legal

Stealth Hunter

05-31-10, 10:49 PM

So far, based on this threads posts, it would appear that the UN has ruled the blockade legal

As far as the actual blockade goes, the UN is debating on whether or not they should be allowed to continue it or not. There's nothing currently going on that's just about this incident, however.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/01/world/middleeast/01nations.html

GoldenRivet

05-31-10, 11:16 PM

so based on that... until the UN rules otherwise, its legal? :06:

Molon Labe

05-31-10, 11:29 PM

so based on that... until the UN rules otherwise, its legal? :06:

The default rule is that you're not allowed to board a ship in international waters aside from a few narrow exceptions. The UNSC can, under its Article VII powers, authorize the use of armed force, including a blockade and the boarding operations that come with it.

Bubblehead1980

06-01-10, 12:21 AM

First of all, there is a blockade and the idiots aboard the ships had to know there was a chance and if they did not, well Israel just took out a few morons.I highly doubt the commandos just boarded and opened fire, they were most likely provoked once they boarded and defended themselves against the activists etc.

Israel has the right to defend itself and one way they are trying to do that is by a blockade to deny materials etc to their enemies.The convoy violated the blockade and suffered the consequences of it's actions.Israel did nothing wrong most likely.People should be worrying about Iran, China , Russia, and North Korea , the real "bad guys" in this world instead of trying to get on Israel about defending itself.
Israel like any country is not perfect and while the US Israel are Allies, Israel has done some things not so friendly to the US in the past but we are Allies, despite the embarassing way obama treats them, but he will be voted out soon enough.The End.

Castout

06-01-10, 01:02 AM

The number of people killed is reported to have reached 19. :nope:

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 01:15 AM

Fastroping 101, funny picture.

But even from a kind of pro-Israel point of view, if they go in and bunch of guys start wielding batongs to defend against attackers, the decision to use lethal force is a big step to take. The commandos could have jumped overboard once the trouble started, I don't think one ship is worth dying/killing for. Or even worth using non-lethal force.

So they could've jumped into the sea, I'm sure they had some kind of flotation devices to keep them on the surface until they were picked up, right? Just bad judgement to use lethal force on such a scale. :nope:

L.T

06-01-10, 01:44 AM

No one like terrorists, and the Israeli soldiers actualy did hold back. They initialy only used paintball guns, but was forced to use there sidearm cause of fear of there lives.

The above sounds ok and no one can point any fingers on that. BUT Israel did this in international waters. There blocade are not acceptet by the UN and therefore it is against international law concerning international waters.

If you are ok with it, you have to be ok with the somali pirates, you have to be ok about any ship being boarded anywhere....

If you think its ok and they were just terrorists, you then have to accept that that you have no rights in international waters, NO ONE SHOULD BE ABOVE THE LAW!

You cant say that its ok what Israel did and then stil demand to be protectet by the law.

All they had to do was to wait so they could intercept in national waters...

If you think its ok and the activists did something wrong by attacking the commandos you have shot down any right to deffend your self...

They were wrong attacking the soldiers, but they had the right to do it BECAUSE THE SHIP WAS IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS!!

Was the convoy a stupid thing? YES
Was the attack on the soldiers a stupid thing? YES

Was the convoy an article 33 convoy? YES
Was the convoy in international waters? YES

Do ANYONE on this planet have the right to deffend there ship in international waters? YES

Is an i-legal boarding in international waters considered piracy? YES

You cant disagree with the Israelis on what they did, they just did it the wrong place...

BTW.
Some talks about it was a leagal action, could those then tell me why the UN are launching an investigation concerning the E-LEAGAL actions by Israel in international waters?? turn on the TV and watch the news...

L.T

eskachig

06-01-10, 02:05 AM

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37423584/ns/world_news-mideastn_africa/

Had a feeling it was going to end this way. It's always the way it ends when people without guns try to stand up against people with guns.Well, yes. When a group of people without guns attacks a group of people with guns usually some people get shot. Pretty sure that if you had a gun, you would not allow someone to beat you to death over principle. Double so if you have a mission to follow through and your mates in trouble.

Oh, and the contraband worth killing over...?
Nobody was trying to kill anyone over contraband. Contraband is worth boarding over, not killing. Unconscious comrades bleeding on the ground and a mob with weapons is worth killing over.

I mean, even if nobody thought that a merry band of pacifists and activists would have triggered such a hostile response, the least any country would do is to stop the ships in their NATIONAL waters and have them searched.It's not practical to enforce a blockade within national waters, as international waters are within speedboat range. If you let ships park twelve miles off-shore, it becomes virtually impossible to interdict the cargo.

Which is why pretty much every other blockade ever has been carried out in international waters.

And if it's true that the ships were boarded in international waters, resistance by the ship crew and occupants is justified.Look, regardless of the legality of the situation - armed resistance against a military unit will probably result in your death, and that's true everywhere. Soldiers aren't lawyers. What's more, armed resistance against a military force means you're not a civilian. Yes, if a nation is invading yours without UN sanction, that is possibly illegal. But their soldiers shooting you when you come at them with a hunting rifle is not.

Not smart on the Isreali part to send battle hardened commandos. These guys are like watchdogs trained to shot first and ask question later. When you're mentally conditioned to survive by sheer brute force in a hostile envirnment you don't mix well with any stress situation that requires thinking BEFORE acting. They just act like dumb, albeit very efficient, biological robots.You don't understand the realities of either police work or modern military operations. Both are trained to overcome the adrenalin dump of combat and retain judgement and rationality - but soldiers even more so as they face those situations more and the stakes are higher. They have different set of tactical skills, and police work puts a stronger emphasis on people skills and conflict prevention - but in this case nobody got a chance to talk anyway.

They should have used policemen who are better trained to deal with protesters, riots, etc...What would the cops do, take a longer beating? I think the soldiers should've shot sooner. It's not their job to debate why they are being sent into that situation, and once an angry mob is beating you and your buddies to a pulp and giving every indication of murderous intent, it's time for a lethal response.

Say what you want about the Israelis, but had they not been met with violence this would've been a non-incident, like the five boardings before it.

Then it all was pointless for Israel to begin with. And they're in a heap of trouble. From what I've heard and been reading, the Israelis opened fire with the paintball guns they had on the humanitarian aid workers and injured a few of them, then were stormed by the rest. The Turks on board were screaming at them not to shoot because they were "raising the white flag!"

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/10199480.stm

Well that must excuse it. After all, if I break into your house and shoot you with a beanbag gun before racking up the buckshot after you hit me with a chair, it's you that's in the wrong...I think the videos of the incident put that little theory to rest. The first soldier, and a few after him never got a chance to draw any weapons.

But even from a kind of pro-Israel point of view, if they go in and bunch of guys start wielding batongs to defend against attackers, the decision to use lethal force is a big step to take. The commandos could have jumped overboard once the trouble started, I don't think one ship is worth dying/killing for. Or even worth using non-lethal force.Non-lethal options are usually better at preventing violence, or as a preemptive action. In close combat with hand weapons they are generally ineffective. Oh, and jumping off means leaving your people behind to the tender mercies of a rampaging mob.

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 02:14 AM

Interesting first message. :shifty:

Well, yes. When a group of people without guns attacks a group of people with guns usually some people get shot. Pretty sure that if you had a gun, you would not allow someone to beat you to death over principle. Double so if you have a mission to follow through and your mates in trouble.

Does this only apply to the Israeli commandos or also the people in the aid convoy?

Nobody was trying to kill anyone over contraband. Contraband is worth boarding over, not killing. Unconscious comrades bleeding on the ground and a mob with weapons is worth killing over.What about people legally defending their ship being shot to death by invaders?

It's not practical to enforce a blockade within national waters, as international waters are within speedboat range. If you let ships park twelve miles off-shore, it becomes virtually impossible to interdict the cargo. So Israel can do anything, other countries (including North Korea) can't do anything. I get it now.

Look, regardless of the legality of the situation - armed resistance against a military unit will probably result in your death, and that's true everywhere. Soldiers aren't lawyers. What's more, armed resistance against a military force means you're not a civilian. Yes, if a nation is invading yours without UN sanction, that is possibly illegal. But their soldiers shooting you when you come at them with a hunting rifle is not. If I were to commit armed resistance I'd be wielding a little bit more then just a piece of pipe. The outcome would be very different too I can guarantee that.

You don't understand the realities of either police work or modern military operations. Both are trained to overcome the adrenalin dump of combat and retain judgement and rationality - but soldiers even more so as they face those situations more and the stakes are higher. They have different set of tactical skills, and police work puts a stronger emphasis on people skills and conflict prevention - but in this case nobody got a chance to talk anyway.That's right, the Israelis messed up. Good to see you agreeing on that.

What would the cops do, take a longer beating? I think the soldiers should've shot sooner. It's not their job to debate why they are being sent into that situation, and once an angry mob is beating you and your buddies to a pulp and giving every indication of murderous intent, it's time for a lethal response.

Say what you want about the Israelis, but had they not been met with violence this would've been a non-incident, like the five boardings before it.

I think the videos of the incident put that little theory to rest. The first soldier, and a few after him never got a chance to draw any weapons.When was the last time cops killed people in your country for non-lethal resistance? Lets say people protest on the street and refuse to leave, you'd say it's ok for the cops to open up on them with lethal force?

Non-lethal options are usually better at preventing violence, or as a preemptive action. In close combat with hand weapons they are generally ineffective. Oh, and jumping off means leaving your people behind to the tender mercies of a rampaging mob.

I guess the Israelis should stop conducting illegal murder operations on international waters then, eh?

msxyz

06-01-10, 02:39 AM

You don't understand the realities of either police work or modern military operations. Both are trained to overcome the adrenalin dump of combat and retain judgement and rationality - but soldiers even more so as they face those situations more and the stakes are higher. They have different set of tactical skills, and police work puts a stronger emphasis on people skills and conflict prevention - but in this case nobody got a chance to talk anyway.

What would the cops do, take a longer beating? I think the soldiers should've shot sooner. It's not their job to debate why they are being sent into that situation, and once an angry mob is beating you and your buddies to a pulp and giving every indication of murderous intent, it's time for a lethal response.

No, a police force would have come equipped with a different set of body armor (like that used by riot control units which is designed to minimize bash damage), gas grenades, stun batoons, etc...

Giving paintball guns or rubber bullets to soldiers is a pretty stupid thing. The moment they realize an angry mob is not stopping to the threat of being hit with some rubber balls they will switch to standard 'man stopper' bullets.

Besides, knowing the usual environment in which these commanods operate it was clear it would end this way. They are trained to fight in close quarters against guerilla units and irregulars disguised as innocent civilians or hiding behind them. They're trained to expect a booby trap right around every corner. In this cases, a split second could make the difference between life and death. That's why they're trained to shoot first and ask later.

It was the wrong military unit to send searching those ships.

Does this only apply to the Israeli commandos or also the people in the aid convoy? What about people legally defending their ship being shot to death by invaders?

So Israel can do anything, other countries (including North Korea) can't do anything. I get it now. You're disturbing a hornet nest. Israel didn't sign any nuclear weapon act, despite its nuclear arsenal is the worst kept secret in the world. Despite this, it's not considered a 'rogue state'. Talk about double standards...

Zachstar

06-01-10, 02:42 AM

They had raised the white flag video shows it happening before most of the violence happened. Now Israel is in a heap of trouble and its operation in Gaza is under more scrutiny then ever. Quick PR defence and the usual "Support Israel or we label you something bad" statements arent going to work here.

Now turkey says its going to send the navy with them next time? What is Israel going to do? Land a commando unit on a combat navy vessel and it will be wiped out within moments. Followed likely by a vampire US is not going to help Israel fight againt a war it starts in international waters. That would leave them open to attack from its neighbors. Its defensive situation just went from crap to utter ****

Tribesman

06-01-10, 02:49 AM

TLAM Strike FTW!
Not in the slightest, read the document not just the line he highlighted as it doesn't even apply.
You need to answer the question of the legal status of the State and the territory in question and the international legal status that israel has given to what it deems prohibited humanitarian aid.

So far, based on this threads posts, it would appear that the UN has ruled the blockade legal
Yes and no, but mainly no and in the incident in question definately no. Customs control (which in effect is what this blockade is) is legal as Israel is the occupying power and as an agreement between parties has border control, but actions under that are only legal in territorial and contiguous waters, not in the EEZ.
The other legal issue on the blockade is the question of the ever changing designation Israel has of what goods constitute humanitarian aid as it not only has no right to block humanitarian aid, it is obliged to ensure it is all allowed to be delivered unimpeded and that the amount delivered is sufficient to meet the needs of the populace.
Since it fails its legal obligations on delivery, access and supply due to its blockade it is by default an illegal blockade (it has even failed to fulfill its legal obligations on supply as ruled in its own courts under its own laws let alone its international obligations under international law)
None of which is really relevant in this instance anyway since it happened in an area where even if it fulfilled all its other obligations it still cannot have done what it did in the EEZ which under those terms count as international waters which is why the UN and just about every government is condemning the action as ilegal

L.T

06-01-10, 02:53 AM

this is a small joke...nothing more :up:

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m256/Space_Vikings/Israelinavy.jpg

:arrgh!:

L.T

Merchant Raider

06-01-10, 02:58 AM

It SURE IS GOING FROM BAD TO WORSE OUTTHERE AND HARD TO KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN, BUT YOU CAN BE SURE AMRECIAN TROOPS WILL SADLY END UP ON THE FRONT LINE THERE DEFENDING SOMETHING THAT IS HARD TO DEFEND AND HOPEFULLY NOT DYING FOR IT, AS AMERICA USALLY VOTES WITH ISREAL IN THE UN, IT SEEMS THAT THERE COULD BE A PRICE TO PAY FOR THIS BLUNDER AND I DONT THINK ISRAEL HAS ANY FRIENDS LEFT IN THE REGION OR EUROPE, TURKEY USE TO BE A GREAT SUPPORTER OF ISRAEL BUT THATS OVER NOW.
:cry::cry:

L.T

06-01-10, 03:00 AM

Merchant Raider

06-01-10, 03:06 AM

Sorry
No offence meant, was not shouting :up::up::up:, just sad to see all this getting out of control, we in Ireland have had our own troubles in the north and we seemed to have sorted it so there can be a way out without the whole region going up in flames again
:arrgh!:

eskachig

06-01-10, 03:14 AM

Interesting first message. :shifty:
Well, google brought me to your fine forum, true.

Does this only apply to the Israeli commandos or also the people in the aid convoy?The people in the aid convoy have the right to defend themselves against violence, true, but in this case they initiated it.

What about people legally defending their ship being shot to death by invaders?Those fine folks did start the violence first you know. They can be described as war casualties, I suppose. Soldiers are shot to death by invaders for legally defending their countries all the time. Still legal. Not that I'm saying the boarding wasn't legal in the first place, which I think it was.

So Israel can do anything, other countries (including North Korea) can't do anything. I get it now.North Korea can do whatever it wants, but its actions, just like Israel's may lead to war with other sovereign states. Does anyone wish to go to war over this? Who?

If I were to commit armed resistance I'd be wielding a little bit more then just a piece of pipe. The outcome would be very different too I can guarantee that.Thanks mr internet tough guy. A pipe is a pretty decent hand weapon actually, as the legions of folks who've clubbed to death will attest to. Getting hit with a metal pipe is something I'd really like to avoid myself. Of course, if they had firearms we wouldn't even ben talking about this in the first place, and the Israelis would've machine-gunned the ship before touching it.

That's right, the Israelis messed up. Good to see you agreeing on that. Well of course they messed up, the operation clearly got out of their control. But at the same time, the people up on deck got the battle they wanted, and I don't feel bad for them, nor do I feel their rights were violated. I do expect some careers taking a hit here though, clear failure to control the situation.

When was the last time cops killed people in your country for non-lethal resistance? Lets say people protest on the street and refuse to leave, you'd say it's ok for the cops to open up on them with lethal force?Of course not, but that's not what happened either. Cops in mine, or any other country, would respond with lethal force when faced with same - which these soldiers were. Indeed, cops in US are a good deal more trigger happy.

I guess the Israelis should stop conducting illegal murder operations on international waters then, eh?I don't know whether this blockade makes sense, but while it's in place of course the Israeli military needs to interdict vessels.

L.T

06-01-10, 03:16 AM

Well, google brought me to your fine forum, true.

The people in the aid convoy have the right to defend themselves against violence, true, but in this case they initiated it.

Those fine folks did start the violence first you know. They can be described as war casualties, I suppose. Soldiers are shot to death by invaders for legally defending their countries all the time. Still legal. Not that I'm saying the boarding wasn't legal in the first place, which I think it was.

North Korea can do whatever it wants, but its actions, just like Israel's may lead to war with other sovereign states. Does anyone wish to go to war over this? Who?

Thanks mr internet tough guy. A pipe is a pretty decent hand weapon actually, as the legions of folks who've clubbed to death will attest to. Getting hit with a metal pipe is something I'd really like to avoid myself. Of course, if they had firearms we wouldn't even ben talking about this in the first place, and the Israelis would've machine-gunned the ship before touching it.

Well of course they messed up, the operation clearly got out of their control. But at the same time, the people up on deck got the battle they wanted, and I don't feel bad for them, nor do I feel their rights were violated. I do expect some careers taking a hit here though, clear failure to control the situation.

Of course not, but that's not what happened either. Cops in mine, or any other country, would respond with lethal force when faced with same - which these soldiers were. Indeed, cops in US are a good deal more trigger happy.

I don't know whether this blockade makes sense, but while it's in place of course the Israeli military needs to interdict vessels.

http://i106.photobucket.com/albums/m256/Space_Vikings/Israelinavy.jpg

L.T :arrgh!:

eskachig

06-01-10, 03:20 AM

They had raised the white flag video shows it happening before most of the violence happened.What does the white flag matter exactly? Just watch the video - the first solder gets attacked before he even gets to the deck! If they were inviting a parlay or surrendering that's not how you do it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYjkLUcbJWo

Now turkey says its going to send the navy with them next time? What is Israel going to do? Land a commando unit on a combat navy vessel and it will be wiped out within moments. Followed likely by a vampire US is not going to help Israel fight againt a war it starts in international waters. That would leave them open to attack from its neighbors. Its defensive situation just went from crap to utter ****Source please. I seriously doubt Turkish navy is going to attempt a blockade run, but in that case of course there wouldn't be a commando fast roping down, there would be a missile duel or an air strike.

Merchant Raider

06-01-10, 03:26 AM

Skybird

06-01-10, 03:27 AM

Welcome aboard subsim, eskachig. Good first post!:up:

eskachig

06-01-10, 03:29 AM

No, a police force would have come equipped with a different set of body armor (like that used by riot control units which is designed to minimize bash damage), gas grenades, stun batoons, etc...I have never, ever, seen a naval boarding team from any nations arrive in riot gear. I'm not even sure there is a variant suitable for navy warfare. Anyway, they did come with some non-lethal options apparently, but the situation outgrew them.

Giving paintball guns or rubber bullets to soldiers is a pretty stupid thing. The moment they realize an angry mob is not stopping to the threat of being hit with some rubber balls they will switch to standard 'man stopper' bullets.Well yes, cops switch to their sidearms in this situation as well. It's not just common sense, it's what you're trained and expected to do.

Besides, knowing the usual environment in which these commanods operate it was clear it would end this way. They are trained to fight in close quarters against guerilla units and irregulars disguised as innocent civilians or hiding behind them. They're trained to expect a booby trap right around every corner. In this cases, a split second could make the difference between life and death. That's why they're trained to shoot first and ask later.
These are naval special forces, they are trained to board hostile vessels. Which this was. There was no shooting first and asking later, in fact once shooting started everything stopped right away. You can watch it on the video, the order of events is quite clear. There is a long beating before any shots are fired, but within seconds of opening fire the military has control of the situation.

Clearly the vessel should've been boarded in a more aggressive manner, but that's beside the point.

Skybird

06-01-10, 03:30 AM

Hi Eskachig
welcome to our fine forum and hope you will stay around cause we do have some great topics which people can read or answer,but the question begs to be answered are you here to do a PR job for the isreals ?
regards
He answered reasonably, and calm. His arguments are solid and well thought out.

Maybe you accuse him only because your argument is weaker? ;)

Merchant Raider

06-01-10, 03:32 AM

Its a PR spin we are getting from him:down:

eskachig

06-01-10, 03:34 AM

Hi Eskachig
welcome to our fine forum and hope you will stay around cause we do have some great topics which people can read or answer,but the question begs to be answered are you here to do a PR job for the isreals ?
regardsI am a Californian engineer, not Jewish, and actually fairly liberal. I think Israel needs to find a solution to the occupation, because clearly things can't go on. Usually, I'm defending the Palestinians in these internet debates, and honestly it's almost puzzling to find myself on the other side.

But as far as I can tell, the Israeli military did their job fairly professionally here. In general, I don't have many bad things to say about the IDF and their conduct, even if I think Israeli policy on the Palestinian issue is total crap.

As far as the Palestinians are concerned, I agree with many of their goals, but detest their methods and leadership.

Too many people on both sides are unwilling to put peace above principles and compromise on things.

But yeah, looks like an interesting place you have here, looking forward to looking around more.

Merchant Raider

06-01-10, 03:38 AM

No Skybird
i will listen to the two sides and then decide, i do think isreal has the right to defend and that people have a right to protest ( not with bombs or guns ).And as i said earlier i have great respect for the IDF and have read books on them so i am not getting on his back because i think he is a spokesman i am just interested to see were he is coming from

regards

Skybird

06-01-10, 03:42 AM

Its a PR spin we are getting from him:down:
Then it should be easy for you to counter his arguments point by point - with convincing own arguments.

Just making claims, personal accusations, and pointing fingers - is not good enough to qualify for "argument".

eskachig

06-01-10, 03:43 AM

No Skybird
i will listen to the two sides and then decide, i do think isreal has the right to defend and that people have a right to protest ( not with bombs or guns ).
I question that the only posts are on this question ?
regards
It's pretty simple really. I've been out of touch with the news for a couple of days and was doing some research the situation - searching for something like "israel flotilla raid" showed up with this thread in one of the top results and something someone said caught my eye. I read the thread, wanted to respond, so I registered.

I do like military history and simulation games, so I'm sure I'll find something interesting here anyway.

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 03:43 AM

The people in the aid convoy have the right to defend themselves against violence, true, but in this case they initiated it.

How exactly? By having the right to defend against violence with lethal force if necessary which wasn't used btw?

Those fine folks did start the violence first you know. They can be described as war casualties, I suppose. Soldiers are shot to death by invaders for legally defending their countries all the time. Still legal. Not that I'm saying the boarding wasn't legal in the first place, which I think it was.

Which they were entitled to do according to law whereas the invaders are clearly in breach of all laws, maritime and other.

The Israeli commandos can be described as murderers, aggressors and genocidists who can be legally killed.

The attack was against all laws, which is why Netanyahu is begging for mercy in global media right now. Not that this will stop the swift dealing of justice against Israel, the most murderous country of Middle East.

North Korea can do whatever it wants, but its actions, just like Israel's may lead to war with other sovereign states. Does anyone wish to go to war over this? Who?

The whole world wants Israel to sieze to exist.

Thanks mr internet tough guy. A pipe is a pretty decent hand weapon actually, as the legions of folks who've clubbed to death will attest to. Getting hit with a metal pipe is something I'd really like to avoid myself. Of course, if they had firearms we wouldn't even ben talking about this in the first place, and the Israelis would've machine-gunned the ship before touching it.

What you want a piece of me? If you want to avoid defensive action you should not take part in murderous operations which may very well lead to retaliations.

Well of course they messed up, the operation clearly got out of their control. But at the same time, the people up on deck got the battle they wanted, and I don't feel bad for them, nor do I feel their rights were violated. I do expect some careers taking a hit here though, clear failure to control the situation.

I don't feel bad for any Israeli people, or Jews for that matter, now or ever. You're all clearly a bunch of murderous, law breaking criminals and murderers.

Of course not, but that's not what happened either. Cops in mine, or any other country, would respond with lethal force when faced with same - which these soldiers were. Indeed, cops in US are a good deal more trigger happy.

Proof?

I don't know whether this blockade makes sense, but while it's in place of course the Israeli military needs to interdict vessels.

And murder people and break the law. I get it.

Skybird

06-01-10, 03:46 AM

Too many people on both sides are unwilling to put peace above principles and compromise on things.
That summarises it in a one-liner.

But yeah, looks like an interesting place you have here, looking forward to looking around more.
Yep. Running the show since three millenia or even longer. It's not as if the inhabitants of that region are performing a really new hobby.

Skybird

06-01-10, 03:49 AM

I do like military history and simulation games, so I'm sure I'll find something interesting here anyway.
In case you have not already noticed, there are three subsections in this forum focussing on other (non-naval) games, flightsims and tanksims as well.

eskachig

06-01-10, 04:14 AM

How exactly? By having the right to defend against violence with lethal force if necessary which wasn't used btw?First, metal pipes are a lethal force. If you come at a cop with a metal pipe you will be shot, I'm serious. They're not even going to bother with the tazer. The proper counter to a club or a pipe (or a knife) is another lethal weapon.

Which they were entitled to do according to law whereas the invaders are clearly in breach of all laws, maritime and other. What law? There are laws that say that it's not legal to interfere with legitimate shipping (though blockade runners are typicall excluded), but there is no inherent right to repulse such attempts with force. You can either treat it as a criminal action and bring legal challenges, or you can treat it as an act of war - in which case the people on the ship are either civilians if they are peaceful, or combatants if they are not.

The Israeli commandos can be described as murderers, aggressors and genocidists who can be legally killed.That is just silly. Though in general I think that soldiers in general can be legally killed. Of course, if you try you become a combatant and they can kill you legally as well. That's what war is for the most part - soldiers getting killed is tragic but it's not illegal.

The attack was against all laws, which is why Netanyahu is begging for mercy in global media right now. Not that this will stop the swift dealing of justice against Israel, the most murderous country of Middle East.Israel has a long way to go to become that, though I expect far more out of a functioning democracy anyhow. This is a PR blow for them, no doubt, but I think you'll find that things continue as they are.

The whole world wants Israel to sieze to exist.So? Israelis are willing to defend their land, and they are pretty good at it. Really, that's all it takes to make a state. Why is France France? Because Frenchmen bled for a thousand years to hold on to that piece of dirt. No other reason.

What you want a piece of me? If you want to avoid defensive action you should not take part in murderous operations which may very well lead to retaliations. No, I generally refrain from fighting people from the internet. I was simply saying that a pipe is a decent hand to hand weapon when you can't use firearms. Your "had I been there..." comment is why I called you a tough guy.

I don't feel bad for any Israeli people, or Jews for that matter, now or ever. You're all clearly a bunch of murderous, law breaking criminals and murderers. I'm not Jewish dude, not even slightly. But your attitude is pretty weird really, I feel bad for a lot of Jews. I feel bad for a lot of Russians too, being one, and Germans as well, and Palestinians, and Somali, etc. Most people who get hurt are just regular folks trying to live a life. Amazing concept huh?

Proof?What kind of proof would you like? Guidelines for use of lethal force from any police department in the country would clear use of guns in this situation. I honestly think it would be more interesting if you produced something that recommends against lethal force when enveloped by an armed mob.

And murder people and break the law. I get it.
The question of breaking the law is debatable. But seriously, nobody wanted to kill anyone, the Israelis would've much preferred things went peacefully as they did with the other ships. And regardless of why boarding was initiated, once it did the commandos had no choice other than lethal self defense, hence not murder.

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 04:23 AM

No, I generally refrain from fighting people from the internet. I was simply saying that a pipe is a decent hand to hand weapon when you can't use firearms. Your "had I been there..." comment is why I called you a tough guy.

Well what then? Just speak in clear terms so I can understand you, I think I made myself very clear. I'm not running away from anyone, you least of all. So...what are you saying? You think you can threaten me like the Israelis are trying to threaten Palestinians?

eskachig

06-01-10, 04:35 AM

Well what then? Just speak in clear terms so I can understand you, I think I made myself very clear. I'm not running away from anyone, you least of all. So...what are you saying? You think you can threaten me like the Israelis are trying to threaten Palestinians?I am not threatening you, never did, not once. I did call you an internet tough guy, and now you are puffing up your chest and proving me right. Seriously, try to relax and we can go on discussing this rather interesting issue, you're way too worked up.

Skybird

06-01-10, 04:40 AM

The whole world wants Israel to sieze to exist.

I don't feel bad for any Israeli people, or Jews for that matter, now or ever. You're all clearly a bunch of murderous, law breaking criminals and murderers.

No comment.

Reported, for whatever it is worth.

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 04:43 AM

I am not threatening you, never did, not once. I did call you an internet tough guy, and now you are puffing up your chest and proving me right. Seriously, try to relax and we can go on discussing this rather interesting issue, you're way too worked up.

You come here and in your fifth or sixth message start throwing accusations around, maybe you should look at your own behavior instead for a change.

Jimbuna

06-01-10, 05:38 AM

I am not threatening you, never did, not once. I did call you an internet tough guy, and now you are puffing up your chest and proving me right. Seriously, try to relax and we can go on discussing this rather interesting issue, you're way too worked up.

Welcome to SubSim eskachig http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/welcome.gif

I've read your first posts with a keen sense of interest because I have long been a supporter of Israel and her struggle to maintain the right to exist.

Sometimes I struggle with condoning the methods used but always balance it out by making an allowance such as 'you weren't there so how would or should you have reacted' or something along those lines.

Watching this thread develop over time I was honestly struggling to support or justify the actions of Israel but after viewing the video evidence my conclusion is that Israel took a big gamble with international opinion/feeling and once that card had been played they were forced by the actions of the ships inhabitants to take special measures to meet the situation that developed.

Right or wrong initially the end game was probably forced upon them but in hindsight (such a wonderful gift) they should have known how the situation would more than likely escalate.

The General Topics or snake pit as some of the regulars is the place to come for some lively topical debate.

Tis a pity you've been confronted by the 'internet tough guy' so early in your membership but my advice would be to take little or no notice, none here do, he is in fact a constant source of entertainment.

Don't bother posting facts and source links to back up your points because they are usually dismissed by a blinkered opinion.

They've been out of the brig for less than a week and already your the recipient of bullying type statements.

Do a bit research on the boards, you'll soon get the picture.

I guess some people never learn.

http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/9652/wizardbehindcurtain.jpg

Tribesman

06-01-10, 05:41 AM

Eskachig, don't take any notice of Herring, he lives on a different planet.
Expect a rant about how you are racist followed by a racist attack on how you as a Californian are inferior to most Americans who are inferior to everyone else on earth and are responsible for everything thats wrong in the world or ever has been(unless its the Israelis or Swedes or Russians or French or whichever particular rant takes his fancy).....who are inferior to people from Finland who are inferior to OneToughHerring as they are either from the wrong part of Finland or don't share his own ethnicity or strange level of cognitive disfunction.

Merchant Raider

06-01-10, 05:45 AM

Well his forum name says it all :yep:

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 06:21 AM

Hey, Internet tough guys, how about we got back on topic for a change, ok?

According to media sources Israel claims that it sabotaged the engines of some of the ships in the aid convoy in order to stop them from travelling. I wonder why the massacre was necessary in the end then, was it maybe planned ahead? :hmmm:

UN is launching a study into the incident (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle_east/10201165.stm), I wonder if they will be allowed to study the IDF's plans, kinda doubt it.

Fincuan

06-01-10, 06:29 AM

According to media sources Israel claims that it sabotaged the engines of some of the ships in the aid convoy in order to stop them from travelling. I wonder why the massacre was necessary in the end then, was it maybe planned ahead?

If you had read the entire article you'd know: The ship in question was the biggest in the "fleet", with hundreds of passengers onboard, in which case a broken engine would have presented too great a risk and resulted in a massive and complicated rescue attempt.

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 06:30 AM

If you had read the entire article you'd know: The ship in question was the biggest in the "fleet", with hundreds of passengers onboard, in which case a broken engine would have presented too great a risk and resulted in a massive and complicated rescue attempt.

Yea, a bigger risk then what the IDF threw at them? I kinda doubt it.

Fincuan

06-01-10, 06:37 AM

I doubt they had planned for that kind of result given the pepper guns and all. The pre-planned "low risk" option just went south due to the heavier than expected resistance onboard.

Bilge_Rat

06-01-10, 06:39 AM

Well, yes. When a group of people without guns attacks a group of people with guns usually some people get shot. Pretty sure that if you had a gun, you would not allow someone to beat you to death over principle. Double so if you have a mission to follow through and your mates in trouble.

Nobody was trying to kill anyone over contraband. Contraband is worth boarding over, not killing. Unconscious comrades bleeding on the ground and a mob with weapons is worth killing over.

It's not practical to enforce a blockade within national waters, as international waters are within speedboat range. If you let ships park twelve miles off-shore, it becomes virtually impossible to interdict the cargo.

Which is why pretty much every other blockade ever has been carried out in international waters.

Look, regardless of the legality of the situation - armed resistance against a military unit will probably result in your death, and that's true everywhere. Soldiers aren't lawyers. What's more, armed resistance against a military force means you're not a civilian. Yes, if a nation is invading yours without UN sanction, that is possibly illegal. But their soldiers shooting you when you come at them with a hunting rifle is not.

You don't understand the realities of either police work or modern military operations. Both are trained to overcome the adrenalin dump of combat and retain judgement and rationality - but soldiers even more so as they face those situations more and the stakes are higher. They have different set of tactical skills, and police work puts a stronger emphasis on people skills and conflict prevention - but in this case nobody got a chance to talk anyway.

What would the cops do, take a longer beating? I think the soldiers should've shot sooner. It's not their job to debate why they are being sent into that situation, and once an angry mob is beating you and your buddies to a pulp and giving every indication of murderous intent, it's time for a lethal response.

Say what you want about the Israelis, but had they not been met with violence this would've been a non-incident, like the five boardings before it.

I think the videos of the incident put that little theory to rest. The first soldier, and a few after him never got a chance to draw any weapons.

Non-lethal options are usually better at preventing violence, or as a preemptive action. In close combat with hand weapons they are generally ineffective. Oh, and jumping off means leaving your people behind to the tender mercies of a rampaging mob.

excellent post Eskachig, totallly agree. :up:

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 06:42 AM

Bilge_Rat

06-01-10, 06:43 AM

Well, google brought me to your fine forum, true.

The people in the aid convoy have the right to defend themselves against violence, true, but in this case they initiated it.

Those fine folks did start the violence first you know. They can be described as war casualties, I suppose. Soldiers are shot to death by invaders for legally defending their countries all the time. Still legal. Not that I'm saying the boarding wasn't legal in the first place, which I think it was.

North Korea can do whatever it wants, but its actions, just like Israel's may lead to war with other sovereign states. Does anyone wish to go to war over this? Who?

Thanks mr internet tough guy. A pipe is a pretty decent hand weapon actually, as the legions of folks who've clubbed to death will attest to. Getting hit with a metal pipe is something I'd really like to avoid myself. Of course, if they had firearms we wouldn't even ben talking about this in the first place, and the Israelis would've machine-gunned the ship before touching it.

Well of course they messed up, the operation clearly got out of their control. But at the same time, the people up on deck got the battle they wanted, and I don't feel bad for them, nor do I feel their rights were violated. I do expect some careers taking a hit here though, clear failure to control the situation.

Of course not, but that's not what happened either. Cops in mine, or any other country, would respond with lethal force when faced with same - which these soldiers were. Indeed, cops in US are a good deal more trigger happy.

I don't know whether this blockade makes sense, but while it's in place of course the Israeli military needs to interdict vessels.

excellent post again, totally agree with this also. :up:

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 06:44 AM

Bilge_Rat

06-01-10, 06:45 AM

I have never, ever, seen a naval boarding team from any nations arrive in riot gear. I'm not even sure there is a variant suitable for navy warfare. Anyway, they did come with some non-lethal options apparently, but the situation outgrew them.

Well yes, cops switch to their sidearms in this situation as well. It's not just common sense, it's what you're trained and expected to do.

These are naval special forces, they are trained to board hostile vessels. Which this was. There was no shooting first and asking later, in fact once shooting started everything stopped right away. You can watch it on the video, the order of events is quite clear. There is a long beating before any shots are fired, but within seconds of opening fire the military has control of the situation.

Clearly the vessel should've been boarded in a more aggressive manner, but that's beside the point.

excellent posts Eskachig, welcome to our little forum.

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 06:48 AM

Dowly

06-01-10, 06:48 AM

Hey, Internet tough guys, how about we got back on topic for a change, ok?

Ok.

Yes it is true. Israel's nuclear weapons are tolerated because, well they just are. Better not ask questions.

Guess not then. :DL

Bilge_Rat

06-01-10, 06:51 AM

First, metal pipes are a lethal force. If you come at a cop with a metal pipe you will be shot, I'm serious. They're not even going to bother with the tazer. The proper counter to a club or a pipe (or a knife) is another lethal weapon.

What law? There are laws that say that it's not legal to interfere with legitimate shipping (though blockade runners are typicall excluded), but there is no inherent right to repulse such attempts with force. You can either treat it as a criminal action and bring legal challenges, or you can treat it as an act of war - in which case the people on the ship are either civilians if they are peaceful, or combatants if they are not.

That is just silly. Though in general I think that soldiers in general can be legally killed. Of course, if you try you become a combatant and they can kill you legally as well. That's what war is for the most part - soldiers getting killed is tragic but it's not illegal.

Israel has a long way to go to become that, though I expect far more out of a functioning democracy anyhow. This is a PR blow for them, no doubt, but I think you'll find that things continue as they are.

So? Israelis are willing to defend their land, and they are pretty good at it. Really, that's all it takes to make a state. Why is France France? Because Frenchmen bled for a thousand years to hold on to that piece of dirt. No other reason.

No, I generally refrain from fighting people from the internet. I was simply saying that a pipe is a decent hand to hand weapon when you can't use firearms. Your "had I been there..." comment is why I called you a tough guy.

I'm not Jewish dude, not even slightly. But your attitude is pretty weird really, I feel bad for a lot of Jews. I feel bad for a lot of Russians too, being one, and Germans as well, and Palestinians, and Somali, etc. Most people who get hurt are just regular folks trying to live a life. Amazing concept huh?

What kind of proof would you like? Guidelines for use of lethal force from any police department in the country would clear use of guns in this situation. I honestly think it would be more interesting if you produced something that recommends against lethal force when enveloped by an armed mob.

The question of breaking the law is debatable. But seriously, nobody wanted to kill anyone, the Israelis would've much preferred things went peacefully as they did with the other ships. And regardless of why boarding was initiated, once it did the commandos had no choice other than lethal self defense, hence not murder.

I like this guy. :up:

Dowly

06-01-10, 06:51 AM

The moment they realize an angry mob is not stopping to the threat of being hit with some rubber balls they will switch to standard 'man stopper' bullets.

Umm... yeah. What do you expected them to do? Would you stand around and take the beating, possibly all the way until you're dead? I think not.

Bilge_Rat

06-01-10, 06:52 AM

No comment.

Reported, for whatever it is worth.

nothing we did not know already.

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 06:58 AM

I doubt they had planned for that kind of result given the pepper guns and all. The pre-planned "low risk" option just went south due to the heavier than expected resistance onboard.

Well we don't know this now do we? The oldest trick in the book is to attack and draw a low level attack on oneself and then respond with 'righteous' deadly force. "You all saw it, they attacked first". Unfortunately in the court of law it's not a question of who attacks first, it's a question of what the damages are and then passing sentence based on that.

AngusJS

06-01-10, 07:04 AM

I don't feel bad for any Israeli people, or Jews for that matter, now or ever. You're all clearly a bunch of murderous, law breaking criminals and murderers. Please check any anti-semitism you may have at the door. It's wrong. It's stupid too, as it just ends up providing cover to Israel by giving them an easy way to dismiss criticism.

Tribesman

06-01-10, 07:07 AM

Oh dear, it appears the fall out is gathering.
It looks like the Isreali cabinet is rather annoyed that not only did the military deliver a PR disaster, but also that they went and launched the operation without getting the needed approval from the Israeli government.

Unfortunately in the court of law it's not a question of who attacks first, it's a question of what the damages are and then passing sentence based on that.
Not on planet earth, come and visit sometime.

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 07:08 AM

Please check any anti-semitism you may have at the door. It's wrong. It's stupid too, as it just ends up providing cover to Israel by giving them an easy way to dismiss criticism.

I notice you seem to be completely ok with the "story of patriotism" - thread where at the moment there is a very lively debate going on about the demise of the white race (?).

But just to please you, I'll chance all critique I might have about Israel and zionist politics into race based hatred of people with darker skintone then mine. :cool:

Happy Times

06-01-10, 07:10 AM

Please check any anti-semitism you may have at the door. It's wrong. It's stupid too, as it just ends up providing cover to Israel by giving them an easy way to dismiss criticism.

OTH is just the type of person those ships were full off.:yeah:

So stop finding excuses for them all.

Communists, Anarchists and Islamists have this perverse union in Europe but it should tell people what they are about.

Neal should pass OTH:s Ip to the Finnish security police, just in case.:salute:

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 07:13 AM

OTH is just the type of person those ships were full off.:yeah:

So stop finding excuses for them all.

Communists, Anarchists and Islamists have this perverse union in Europe but it should tell people what they are about.

Neal should pass OTH:s Ip to the Finnish security police, just in case.:salute:

I think they might be more interested in your IP. :O:

Foxtrot

06-01-10, 07:24 AM

True but hey, what are you going to do. It's not like Israel is bound by the same rules that bound the rest of the world, even the US. By violence and threats etc. they force their will on the world. The very definition of a rogue nation.

Rules and the government of Israel are two different things. What happened to the "investigations" about forged passports in Dubai scandal?

Happy Times

06-01-10, 07:43 AM

I think they might be more interested in your IP. :O:

They have already checked me with my own permission.:haha:

Skybird

06-01-10, 08:05 AM

nothing we did not know already.

Rules are rules, and subsim.com even does not have many. But at least those few rules there are, should be enforced. Disagreement and criticism is one thing, but hate speech like shown here is prohibited by the rules of this forum, simply that, and OTH additionally is a repeated, a frequent, a regular offender having just served another brig time and having displayed his extreme views of Germans (=Nazis) and Jews and Israelis (=bloodthirsty monsters) repeatedly, making his unacceptable behavior a habit .

A forum endlessly tolerating such behavior, does not gain something from doing so, but looses something. even more so when the offender never showed the smallest tendency to change himself for the better.

Oberon

06-01-10, 08:21 AM

Rules are rules, and subsim.com even does not have many. But at least those few rules there are, should be enforced. Disagreement and criticism is one thing, but hate speech like shown here is prohibited by the rules of this forum, simply that, and OTH additionally is a repeated, a frequent, a regular offender having just served another brig time and having displayed his extreme views of Germans (=Nazis) and Jews and Israelis (=bloodthirsty monsters) repeatedly, making his unacceptable behavior a habit .

A forum endlessly tolerating such behavior, does not gain something from doing so, but looses something. even more so when the offender never showed the smallest tendency to change himself for the better.

It's almost as if he wants to be keelhauled...and yet when confronted with such, continually falls back on:

"Oh...I'm sorry...I thought this was a free country! Free speech!"

http://www.panelsonpages.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/09/losing-edge.jpg

Dowly

06-01-10, 08:26 AM

Bilge_Rat

06-01-10, 08:29 AM

Rules are rules, and subsim.com even does not have many. But at least those few rules there are, should be enforced. Disagreement and criticism is one thing, but hate speech like shown here is prohibited by the rules of this forum, simply that, and OTH additionally is a repeated, a frequent, a regular offender having just served another brig time and having displayed his extreme views of Germans (=Nazis) and Jews and Israelis (=bloodthirsty monsters) repeatedly, making his unacceptable behavior a habit .

A forum endlessly tolerating such behavior, does not gain something from doing so, but looses something. even more so when the offender never showed the smallest tendency to change himself for the better.

I would let the mods sort this out. If I got upset over every anti-semite I meet, I would be upset pretty often...:arrgh!:

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 08:29 AM

Ok I'll grant eskachig (sp) this, at least he said something like "someone might lose their job over this". That's something isn't it? Some poor Jew in the upper echelons of IDF will be booted out in these economic times. I mean, how cruel. All he did was basically cause the deaths of 10 + people plus several injured.

Bilge_Rat

06-01-10, 08:40 AM

No, a police force would have come equipped with a different set of body armor (like that used by riot control units which is designed to minimize bash damage), gas grenades, stun batoons, etc...

Giving paintball guns or rubber bullets to soldiers is a pretty stupid thing. The moment they realize an angry mob is not stopping to the threat of being hit with some rubber balls they will switch to standard 'man stopper' bullets.

Besides, knowing the usual environment in which these commanods operate it was clear it would end this way. They are trained to fight in close quarters against guerilla units and irregulars disguised as innocent civilians or hiding behind them. They're trained to expect a booby trap right around every corner. In this cases, a split second could make the difference between life and death. That's why they're trained to shoot first and ask later.

It was the wrong military unit to send searching those ships.

Israel has a special police force trained to deal with these things, but for some legal reason, they could not be used. This was alluded to in the article I quoted previously:

The videos taken by the IDF were passed around throughout the defense establishment and made their way to other special forces, including the Israel Police’s elite counter-terror unit Yamam, which had fought to participate in the mission but had been left on the sidelines due to legal complications involving police operations out at sea.

Obviously, in hindsight, the wrong tactics were used. Rappelling down a line single file at night into a hostile crowd was not the smartest move. The whole point of a police operation is to show the person being detained that he has no other option but to submit peacefully.

I would have thought the smartest thing would be to do a classic naval boarding in daytime, with IDF warships blocking the path of the vessels and armed boarding parties coming aboard from boats.

Factor

06-01-10, 08:44 AM

The UN is now condemning the attacks. But I doubt there will be any consequence or action taken by the UN.

Tribesman

06-01-10, 09:29 AM

The UN is now condemning the attacks. But I doubt there will be any consequence or action taken by the UN.
The UN have been condemning the attack since the news broke, just as they have been condemning aspects of the "blockade" since it was introduced .
As for consequences, any UNSC action will have to rely on America not using the veto. While in the past this veto has been taken as par for the course things are changing, as the head of Mossad said to the Knesset this morning, the frequent screw ups and bullheadedness are turning Israel into a real liability for America.

On a wider note its quite amazing how so many have lined up to parrot the Israeli propoganda and attempt justifying the unjustifyable while Israels media is full of articles by Isrealis lambasting their government and military for the sheer stupidity of their actions in relation to the convoy and the blockade.

Bilge_Rat

06-01-10, 09:37 AM

On a wider note its quite amazing how so many have lined up to parrot the Israeli propoganda and attempt justifying the unjustifyable while Israels media is full of articles by Isrealis lambasting their government and military for the sheer stupidity of their actions in relation to the convoy and the blockade.

Dont start with the insulting insinuations or this thread will degenerate quickly. It is possible for us to make up our own mind based on the "facts" even over something as volatile as middle east politics.

Israel is not always 100% guilty and the Palestinians are not always blameless. The truth, as usual, lies somewhere in between.

The elusive goal is, as always, peace, but that elusive goal seems to be getting more and more elusive each year as the position hardens on each side.

Tribesman

06-01-10, 09:54 AM

What insulting insinuations?

The elusive goal is, as always, peace, but that elusive goal seems to be getting more and more elusive each year as the position hardens on each side.
The goal is getting more and more elusive as Isreal needs to negotiate from a position of strength, these past twenty years and more have seen the State repeatedly weaken itself through the stupidity of its own actions.

Onkel Neal

06-01-10, 09:58 AM

How exactly? By having the right to defend against violence with lethal force if necessary which wasn't used btw?

Which they were entitled to do according to law whereas the invaders are clearly in breach of all laws, maritime and other.

The Israeli commandos can be described as murderers, aggressors and genocidists who can be legally killed.

The attack was against all laws, which is why Netanyahu is begging for mercy in global media right now. Not that this will stop the swift dealing of justice against Israel, the most murderous country of Middle East.

The whole world wants Israel to sieze to exist.

What you want a piece of me? If you want to avoid defensive action you should not take part in murderous operations which may very well lead to retaliations.

I don't feel bad for any Israeli people, or Jews for that matter, now or ever. You're all clearly a bunch of murderous, law breaking criminals and murderers.

Proof?

And murder people and break the law. I get it.

Just to let you know, we are getting on average 3 BPRs a day, from a wide variety of different folks, on your posts. I have not been reading these threads lately, so I cannot say I have an interest in this discussion. But you may want to temper your usual bomblast a little for the immediate future. I'm sure you've made your point and left the impression on people you were trying for. Throttle down, your engine's about to blow.

06-01-10, 10:03 AM

On a wider note its quite amazing how so many have lined up to parrot the Israeli propoganda and attempt justifying the unjustifyable while Israels media is full of articles by Isrealis lambasting their government and military for the sheer stupidity of their actions in relation to the convoy and the blockade.
Well... we are liberal democracy too so there are many different opinions. None of the movies you see on utube are propaganda even the first pictures that came live on Turkish TV showed IDF soldiers clubbed with metal pipes by angry mob.The real peace activist that where on other ships did not use violence.
It is true that same newspapers expressed anger that our government and IDF fell in this premeditated trap but its kind of benign the wisest after the case.I hope the lesson was learned and the next ships will be stooped by other means-no no i dont mean by bombing them to hell.

Tribesman

06-01-10, 10:13 AM

None of the movies you see on utube are propaganda
Who said anything about movies?

It is true that same newspapers expressed anger that our government and IDF fell in this premeditated trap but its kind of benign the wisest after the case.
Its true that some newspapers have been saying this PR disaster is exactly what was going to happen ever since the journey was announced, so it isn't a case of being wise after the incident at all as they have been saying it for weeks.

tater

06-01-10, 10:13 AM

From a column at National Review—some useful bullet point facts:
Fact: Israel imposed a blockade of Gaza to prevent weapons from reaching the radical Islamic regime there that continues to make war on Israeli civilians. Egypt too has blockaded the strip, hoping to choke off weapons to Hamas, which it views as a threat.

Fact: Humanitarian relief is delivered to Gaza from Israel on a daily basis. During the first three months of this year, 94,500 tons of supplies were transferred to Gaza from Israel, including 48,000 tons of food products; 40,000 tons of wheat; 2,760 tons of rice; 1,987 tons of clothes and footwear; and 553 tons of milk powder and baby food for the strip’s 1.5 million inhabitants. Representatives of international aid groups and the United Nations move freely to and from the Gaza Strip.

Fact: Upon learning of the intentions of the Gaza flotilla, the Israeli government asked the organizers to deliver their humanitarian aid first to an Israeli port where it would be inspected (for weapons) before being forwarded to Gaza. The organizers refused. “There are two possible happy endings,” a Muslim activist on board explained, “either we will reach Gaza or we will achieve martyrdom.”

Fact: The flotilla ignored multiple instructions from Israeli navy ships to change course and follow them to the Israeli port of Ashdod.

Fact: On board one of the ships, according to al-Jazeera, the “humanitarian” Palestinians sang “Khaybar, Khaybar, oh Jews, the army of Muhammad will return” — a reference to the 628 massacre of Jews in Arabia at the hands of Muhammad.

Fact: The flotilla’s participants included the IHH, a “humanitarian relief fund” based in Turkey that has close ties to Hamas and to global jihadi groups in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Chechnya, and elsewhere, and which has also organized relief to anti-U.S. Islamic radicals in Fallujah, Iraq. A French intelligence report suggests that IHH has provided documents to terrorists, permitting them to pose as relief workers. Among the other cheerleaders — former British MP and Saddam Hussein pal George Galloway, all-purpose America and Israel hater Noam Chomsky, and John Ging, head of UNRWA, the U.N.’s agency for Palestinian support.

Fact: When the family of Gilad Shalit, the Israeli soldier who was kidnapped during a cross-border raid by Hamas in 2006, offered to support the flotilla if, in exchange, they would agree to ask Hamas to permit international agencies to visit their son, they were rebuffed.

Fact: When Israeli commandos rappelled down ropes to the deck of the Mavi Marmara, they were assaulted and beaten with metal poles and baseball bats by the Palestinians on board. (It’s available on theisraelproject.org).

Jimbuna

06-01-10, 10:48 AM

I'm not sure if this detail has been stated here yet so if it has I apologise but the UK news has reported that the Israelis boarded all 6 vessels and it was only this large one where resistance was experienced :hmmm:

06-01-10, 10:50 AM

Who said anything about movies?

Its true that some newspapers have been saying this PR disaster is exactly what was going to happen ever since the journey was announced, so it isn't a case of being wise after the incident at all as they have been saying it for weeks.

Yes some did some didn't.
Some think that this blockade does more damage to Israel on international arena than its worth but sometimes you have to do what you have to do and not what others would you like to.
When we bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor in 1981 nobody liked it too then we had SCUD missles falling on TEL AVIV in 1991.
Sometimes there are people who are much too liberal for their own good -that how ww2 came to happen.

SteamWake

06-01-10, 10:52 AM

They jumped me, hit me with clubs and bottles and stole my rifle," one of the commandos said. "I pulled out my pistol and had no choice but to shoot."

The soldiers said they were forced to open fire after the activists struck one of their comrades in the head and trampled on him. A senior IDF field commander ordered the soldiers then to respond with fire, a decision which the commandos said received full backing the military echelon.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-navy-commandos-gaza-flotilla-activists-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089

Dowly

06-01-10, 10:54 AM

Now it seems that NATO is demanding Israel to set free all of the activists along with their ships.

GoldenRivet

06-01-10, 11:05 AM

Now it seems that NATO is demanding Israel to set free all of the activists along with their ships.

Thats cool.

seize the contraband, and send their ships outbound empty of all prohibited cargo.

situation over

:up:

Merchant Raider

06-01-10, 11:25 AM

AH !, the big soldiers got hit with sticks !!

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...ch-us-1.293089 (http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/israel-navy-commandos-gaza-flotilla-activists-tried-to-lynch-us-1.293089)

GoldenRivet

06-01-10, 11:33 AM

can man not be killed by by being clubbed?

lethal force was justified. it would be no different than a cop pulling you over and you start wailing on him with a club, stick, fist, whatever... guess what you WILL be subdued... even if that means the use of lethal force if the officer / soldier / whatever feels that his life is in danger

tater

06-01-10, 11:45 AM

BTW, as a reality check, the "activists" were seeking to send aid to a terrorist organization. Hamas is considered such by the US and others for intentionally targeting civilians, as well as a mission statement that prohibits any negotiated settlement—the Hamas charter specifically calls for the destruction of any Israeli state. As such, anyone claiming their should be a negotiated settlement is right—but such negotiation is impossible with Hamas, since they say themselves that any such settlement would be nothing but a lie (unless they alter their charter first).

If someone wanted to send humanitarian aid to, say, an AQ region in Pakistan of Afghanistan, I'd be in favor of destroying it. Not stopping, not boarding, destroying it (think "highway of death" here). If it was at sea (say to AQ elements in the Philippines), I'd say you pull up, send a "heave to, and prepared for boarding" to them, and if they don't comply, I'd sink them, then pretend I was on Wahoo, and make chum of them. ;)

Merchant Raider

06-01-10, 11:54 AM

Hi
You seem to think that the ship was full of guns and rockets ready for the invasion !!!, i do try and look at all points of views and different news services not just Fox ?

Foxtrot

06-01-10, 12:02 PM

Molon Labe

06-01-10, 12:02 PM

Going back to the legalities, I'm going to reverse my position.

Even UN member states have the right to use armed force and go to war in self-defense. Hamas' war against Israel certainly gives Israel the justification to use armed force in response. Therefore no UNSC resolution under Article VII is necessary to legitimize the blockade in international waters. The ongoing state of war is the only justification necessary.

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 12:22 PM

Schroeder

06-01-10, 12:25 PM

Medicine,Cement blocks,and wheelchairs should be classified as Weapons of Mass Destruction. Anyone who manufactures them, carries them, transports them and uses them should be considered as a terrorist from now on. Israeli government has to defend itself from wheelchair-bound Palestinians who would wield cement blocks while high on medicine! :yep:
This isn't about what was on the ship but what could have been on the ship. Why didn't they let the soldiers inspect the stuff?
How were the soldiers expected to know what was on board?
All they knew was that the organisation claimed that they only had relief stuff on board.
Would you trust a safety check at an airport where everyone just claims whether he/she has weapons/explosives etc. with him/her? Or would you rather trust in a safety check that deserves that name?

@Merchant Raider
Have you ever been attacked with a baseball bat or similar weapon?
This things can kill and even if they don't they are more than enough to fracture your bones. I would so like to see you in the situation of those soldiers and stay calm and saying: Hey, everything is cool, it's just bats and rods.

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 12:33 PM

This isn't about what was on the ship but what could have been on the ship. Why didn't they let the soldiers inspect the stuff?
How were the soldiers expected to know what was on board?
All they knew was that the organisation claimed that they only had relief stuff on board.
Would you trust a safety check at an airport where everyone just claims whether he/she has weapons/explosives etc. with him/her? Or would you rather trust in a safety check that deserves that name?

@Merchant Raider
Have you ever been attacked with a baseball bat or similar weapon?
This things can kill and even if they don't they are more than enough to fracture your bones. I would so like to see you in the situation of those soldiers and stay calm and saying: Hey, everything is cool, it's just bats and rods.

Are you saying that Israelis have knowledge of all cargo that is approaching their harbors? Well why didn't they ask the Turkish to inspect the ships then, shouldn't have been too difficult. I mean, if they managed to sabotage some ships, a simple phone call shouldn't be too difficult.

If the commandoes didn't want to put themselves on harms way they should've stayed out of a ship sailing in international waters. They were lucky they were only attacked with non-lethal force and not lethal which would have been ok too.

tater

06-01-10, 12:44 PM

Hi
You seem to think that the ship was full of guns and rockets ready for the invasion !!!, i do try and look at all points of views and different news services not just Fox ?

I don't watch TV news, and don't read fox.

I said nothing at all about the contents of the ships. Nor do I care, frankly. The area is blockaded (and the land side was by Egypt). The ships were 100% allowed to deliver their supplies, they were simply required to do so via an Israeli port facility. No weapons, and nothing at all would have been stopped from delivery to Hamas.

The purpose of the "flotilla" was NOT to render aid, or they would have landed, and done so. The purpose was to force an Israeli response, or pass the blockade and show Israel to be incapable of maintaining it in the threat of anyone trying at all to avoid it. They got the former, and attacked the boarders in order to create deaths.

That is the way terrorists work in general (not that this was terrorism). They attack. If they win, they claim a victory. If they lose, they claim they were brutalized by superior forces and gain political power and PR. It is win-win for them. They do not care about their own losses, and in fact the leadership typically wants civilian casualties as it magnifies their "haul" of PR. Shoot rockets at civilians from a school yard, take counterbattery fire, and kids get killed. Profit!

Take supplies to Gaza. Refuse to land at designated port and steam for forbidden port. Attack borders armed with paintballs. 10 people get killed. Win!

GoldenRivet

06-01-10, 12:51 PM

Aide to terrorist organizations is aide to terrorist organizations - no matter what materials you provide them with.

giving them food and building materials is just as bad as giving them explosives and ammo.

msxyz

06-01-10, 12:54 PM

I have never, ever, seen a naval boarding team from any nations arrive in riot gear. I'm not even sure there is a variant suitable for navy warfare. Anyway, they did come with some non-lethal options apparently, but the situation outgrew them.

The point is that you don't treat a boat full of protester ****s as a battle action. These weren't Somali pirates armed with machine guns and Rpgs or insurgents using hit and run guerilla tactics.

This was just an average rioting mob you'll find outside a stadium or vehemently protesting in the town squares. That's why you have to employ a police force which is trained to deal with such situations in a non lethal way! All the people who say that the commandos just responded to the attacking mob don't know the difference between a prroper war zone and a degenerated riot. Or never were inside one, either as a protester or a policeman.

I never saw soldiers succesfully employed in mob control roles. "Sunday, bloody sunday" isn't just a song, you know. :shifty:

Using a military force was probably a deliberate attemp to cause a bloodbath to scare other people against trying such stunts again in the future. Too bad it backfired on the Israeli government.

Molon Labe

06-01-10, 12:57 PM

If the commandoes didn't want to put themselves on harms way they should've stayed out of a ship sailing in international waters. They were lucky they were only attacked with non-lethal force and not lethal which would have been ok too.

How is stabbing someone in the back non-lethal force?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co&feature=player_embedded

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 01:02 PM

How is stabbing someone in the back non-lethal force?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buzOWKxN2co&feature=player_embedded

Dude, attack my house at night and I'll gladly stab you in the face.

Foxtrot

06-01-10, 01:05 PM

GoldenRivet

06-01-10, 01:08 PM

Dude, attack my house at night and I'll gladly stab you in the face.

What if you are being attacked by the authorities for doing something illegal?

just hypothetical question

Molon Labe

06-01-10, 01:09 PM

Dude, attack my house at night and I'll gladly stab you in the face.

Maybe so, but would you call that non-lethal force? Stay on topic!!

OneToughHerring

06-01-10, 01:10 PM

What if you are being attacked by the authorities for doing something illegal?

just hypothetical question

You mean illegal like having building material etc.? Err...duh.

Maybe so, but would you call that non-lethal force? Stay on topic!!

Well at that point you'd be having a major head ache due to the fact that you'd have a Finnish puukko up it's hilt lodged in your face. But not necessarily in your brain though so you'd be very much alive. Then I'd break out a pair of pliers and a blowtorch...:D

tater

06-01-10, 01:14 PM

The point is that you don't treat a boat full of protester ****s as a battle action. These weren't Somali pirates armed with machine guns and Rpgs or insurgents using hit and run guerilla tactics.

They didn't, or they'd have boarded with real weapons or would have simply fired across the bow, then fired on the boat if it didn't stop.

When the USCG pulls alongside and tells you to heave to, you $%#%! heave to and accept the boarders nicely.

"Protesters" would have staged a sit-in when boarded, they'd not attack the boarders. What they did was no different than those idiots in Waco Texas shooting at the FBI. You can argue that the FBI should not have been there, or not showed up with guns, but the reality is that when they DID show up with guns, you should behave nicely, then take them to court.

This is no different. You can argue that they should not have been boarded, but when they were boarded, the proper response would be to behave nicely, and then try and paint the boarders as illegal. The second you attack—sticks, clubs, knives, whatever, you have in fact asked for an armed response.

They attacked because they WANTED TO BE SHOT AT.

Really, they got exactly what they wanted.