Interesting... "Fight" on oil rig just prior to explsion

[SteamWake]

A heated disagreement between the Rig's boss and the company man just prior to the explosion.

It is unknown if the 'spat' had any bearing on the actual explosion itself but basically the disagreement was over how to 'cap' the well.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704717004575268302434395796.html?m od=WSJ_hpp_sections_news

[AVGWarhawk]

Spat or not, that is water under the rig. That well needs to be plugged. I would say the Exxon Valdez was kids play to this. The entire Gulf region is in trouble. As Jindal said, "Let's be clear. The oil is here." Now we are moving into hurricane season.

[SteamWake]

I agree about water under the bridge however this news puts alot of the conspiricy theroys to rest.

But yea in the words of our glorious leader "Plug the damn hole". Thats the plan :O:

[XabbaRus]

Well I'm afraid to say speaking to guys here in Aberdeen who have worked in the North Sea and the Gulf of Mexico they say that safety practices on American rigs are really lax. They do things that would get you kicked off a North Sea rig in minutes.

A friend of mine is a drilling engineer for BP, he was in Houston at the time on a course and he was telling me it was made out to be a lot worse by the press.

[AVGWarhawk]

it was made out to be a lot worse by the press.

I would agree. The press has a bad habit of doing just that.

[SteamWake]

Yea poor florida toruisim is getting hammered. We have a representative here chastising the media for causing that.

"They would have you believe that the entire gulf coast is tainted. It simply isnt true".

So if you had plans to visit the florida gulf coast pay no mind to the silly media and their hysteria. The coast here is clear :salute:

[Seth8530]

Amen, the beaches are still beautiful here in the pan handle

[AVGWarhawk]

I understand that BP has plugged the hole and will be pumping concrete into the pipe. Good news for now. :yeah:

[GoldenRivet]

A friend of mine worked these rigs in the Gulf of Mexico.

one night during a particularly hellish squall, the rig supervisor ordered various work done on the rig that would, in essence, secure it for the weather.

The argument was, that they had been notified of the approaching storm, and tracked it on radar some hours before. But in order to maximize the amount of work done, the rig was left in fully operational status until the last possible second.

Part of the duties my friend had in this process of securing the rig (dont even know if thats the right terminology) was to climb atop a 90 ft tower and complete some function which i still do not fully understand despite his brief explanations.

He refused to perform this job because of the lightning hazard and expressed this to the supervisor in front of a half dozen other workers who by now had all mostly finished their jobs and wanted to go get a hot shower.

After a heated argument... in simple terms the supervisor said "Climb up onto that rig and do your job, or you can get on the next helicopter out of here tomorrow morning and you wont ever be coming back."

in short "do it or your fired"

under the threat of job action, my friend, against all of his better judgment (what little he seems to have honestly) started up the tower in the pouring rain and booming evening sky.

he got nearly to the 90th ft in his ascent when lightning struck the area around his left shoulder blade.

this resulted in a fall of almost 90 ft.

this fall would have surely been fatal, however he hit almost every steel rung of the tower all the way down as his body spun head over feet with a disturbing clang clang clang clang WHOOMP - the rungs or steel supports - whatever you name them - slowed his descent enough that he survived the fall.

when he hit the ground he was non-responsive

A Coast Guard Helicopter retrieved him and transported him to a hospital and Galveston Texas.

There it was discovered that he had a broken back and severe head trauma.

Here in this hospital he lay in a coma for several months.

When he awoke from his coma, he had no memory of how to speak and had virtually no motor skills.

after a little over 2 years of intense physical therapy and speech therapy - he left the hospital on his own two feet.

He was awarded several million dollars in the lawsuit.


so yes... i would assume there are a number of GoM rigs that ignore safety policies.

[XabbaRus]

Do oil workers in the US have a decent union? I don't like unions too much but for hazardous ops then I think it is a necessity.

I'd have told the guy to go ******* himself.

[GoldenRivet]

I'd have told the guy to go ******* himself.

makes two of us.

but then again i guess when you have no college, you have no money, and this is the only decent paying job you could get... being threated with being fired is a helluva motivator.

just my guess

[Jimbuna]

Do oil workers in the US have a decent union? I don't like unions too much but for hazardous ops then I think it is a necessity.

I'd have told the guy to go ******* himself.

Too bloody true.....or force the idiot ahead of you up the tower :yep:

[Skybird]

BP has a natural egoist interest to number the ammount of oil freed into the environment as low as possible. the compensation they will need to pay depends on it. For the same reason they used those toxic chemicals to "dissolve" the oil on the surface although the toxicv agents most likely do as much damage to the eco-system if not more. Also interesting is that an agent was used that is beign produced by a BP daughter, while another agent said to be less dangerous and cheaper, was ignored until the authorities intervened. the oil flowing under water and on the bottom of the ocean, being moved by deep sea currents, is muczh, much more. the use of the chemicals is a comsetic trick, again with one eye on the compensation payments they will need to make.

Oil business is possibly the most corrupted business in the american economy, beside weapoins and defence. The state's control auhtorities for security can be expected - and are described as by insiders - to be as corrupted by big money as well.

I thought that maybe this disaster would be big enough in scale now to make America rethink it's oil obsession. But it seems the pain from this one still is not bad enough. Maybe it needs the whole Atlantic coast being covered with black grease indeed. But something tells me that even that would not be enough to make people change their minds - at least as long as they do not have to eat it.

But they will eat it anyhow, invisibly. But as the saying goes: "out of sight, out of mind".

[UnderseaLcpl]

BP has a natural egoist interest to number the ammount of oil freed into the environment as low as possible. the compensation they will need to pay depends on it.

You say "egoist" like it's a bad thing. You and I may disagree on the virtues of egoism, but you can hardly agrue against the point that egoism ansd self-interest make things happen. Altruism has nothing on egoism in terms of getting stuff done.



For the same reason they used those toxic chemicals to "dissolve" the oil on the surface although the toxicv agents most likely do as much damage to the eco-system if not more. Also interesting is that an agent was used that is beign produced by a BP daughter, while another agent said to be less dangerous and cheaper, was ignored until the authorities intervened. the oil flowing under water and on the bottom of the ocean, being moved by deep sea currents, is muczh, much more. the use of the chemicals is a comsetic trick, again with one eye on the compensation payments they will need to make.


$5 says that BP will solve this problem more quickly and profitably than you ever could. This is why BP is a multi-billion dollar multinational corporation, and you and I are just spectators. Do you really think that you have thought of anything that BP hasn't thought of? People's livliehoods depend upon an effective solution to this problem. These people are working for a paycheck, they aren't posting opinions on a submarine-simulator forum in their spare time.

Oil business is possibly the most corrupted business in the american economy, beside weapoins and defence. The state's control auhtorities for security can be expected - and are described as by insiders - to be as corrupted by big money as well.

The most corrupted? Interesting. Why do you believe that?:hmmm: Why would oil be any more corrupted than any other industry? Because they have a lot of money?

I think you equate money with corruption, Sky. It's not an unreasonable perspective, but it is incorrect. There are a lot of industries, interest groups, lobbies, and people who are a lot more corrupt than the oil business.

You are quick to blame commerce and induistry for the ills of society. Why?

I don't ask these questions to insult or belittle you, Sky, I just want to understand what model of society you would like to see.

I thought that maybe this disaster would be big enough in scale now to make America rethink it's oil obsession.
:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:
Highly unlikely, my friend. We're a huge economy. The largest of any single nation on the planet. That economy is made of over 300 million people, over half of which need to get somewhere on a daily basis. No amount of wisdom or environmental consciousness is going to change that. It all boils down to the agenda of the individual, not that of society.

If the oil runs out, it will be the market that dictates the change to an alternative fuel source. Not you. Not me. Not anyone. There is no political entity on the planet that can effectively govern the wills of the multitudes. The only thing that politicians can govern is popular sentiment, and even then they only manage to do it in election years. The market is the ultimate judge of all things. Nothing can stand in the way of the Adam Smith's "invisible hand".

But it seems the pain from this one still is not bad enough. Maybe it needs the whole Atlantic coast being covered with black grease indeed.
How would that ever happen? The closest we've ever come was during operation "Drumbeat" and the Germans didn't even come close to coating the Atlantic coast with oil, despite the fact that they were actually trying to do that. I hardly think that oil companies with a vested interest in selling oil rather than spilling it will spell economic disaster for the US.



But something tells me that even that would not be enough to make people change their minds - at least as long as they do not have to eat it.

But they do have to eat it- in the form of prices. That's why Americans drive smaller cars and carpool and economize on gas. The lessons of the gas shortage of 1978 have endured for over three decades, now. The lessons of environmentalists have also endured for more than three decades, but nobody cares about them, other than paying lip-service. The same people who bitch about global warming and environmental destruction drive SUVs every day.

But they will eat it anyhow, invisibly. But as the saying goes: "out of sight, out of mind".

You really believe that? The environmental destruction wrought by resource-harvesting companies is not out of sight or out of mind for anyone, including the companies themselves. Even my own company, BNSF Railways Inc, is mindful of fuel usage, despite the fact that we are have a monopoly on almost all freight shipping in the western US. We pay for reforesting as part of a joint agreement with Pacific Lumber. We pay for the recovery of lands we strip-mine coal from in the Powder River Basin. The state doesn't make us do these things. We do them because we're a company made of people who care just as much as you do about the environment. It's our environment too, y'know.

But unlike you, we have more than a complaint to offer. We have the resources and the capital to actually do something because we earned them through our own efforts. '

America's prosperity is ours. We ship freight, so we need people who ship freight and respect us enough to ship their freight with us. We ship one ton of freight over 400 miles and use only a gallon of gas in the process, and we're a monopoly. Does anybody care? No, because they're too busy bitching about whatever lawyers tell them to bitch about because they're too short-sighted to understand that they've been co-opted by the legal and political industries, which they somehow do not recognize as industries.

Sorry for the rant, Sky. I tend to get carried away.


Actually, as long as I've got you here, what would you say to another chess match? I've been practicing:DL

[Skybird]

You say "egoist" like it's a bad thing. You and I may disagree on the virtues of egoism, but you can hardly agrue against the point that egoism ansd self-interest make things happen.
So does sexual perversions. Or pressing the red button. Or becoming choleric. It makes things happening.

Altruism has nothing on egoism in terms of getting stuff done.
It depends on what gets done. Egoism today does mostly bad things. Altruism focusses not on oneself's benefit, but on the other's benefit.

$5 says that BP will solve this problem more quickly and profitably than you ever could. This is why BP is a multi-billion dollar multinational corporation, and you and I are just spectators. Do you really think that you have thought of anything that BP hasn't thought of? People's livliehoods depend upon an effective solution to this problem. These people are working for a paycheck, they aren't posting opinions on a submarine-simulator forum in their spare time.
The info on the different chemicals was given by insiders.

The most corrupted? Interesting. Why do you believe that?:hmmm: Why would oil be any more corrupted than any other industry? Because they have a lot of money?
Because oil lobby is amongst the strongest there is, lobbying for oil spends more money than other lobbies, and the briberies being given in connection with the oil business surpasses that in most other business fields.

I think you equate money with corruption, Sky. It's not an unreasonable perspective, but it is incorrect. There are a lot of industries, interest groups, lobbies, and people who are a lot more corrupt than the oil business.
Information is one thing, lobbying is a very different thing. And corruption is corruption. Lobbying means manipulating legislation, bypassing the intention of laws, and betraying the voters, claiming more power for lobbyists than the voting people. It is the ultimate hijacking of democracy.


You are quick to blame commerce and induistry for the ills of society. Why?

I blame corrupted commerce and industry lobbies, becasue they are criminal and cause more damage to our socieities than Saddam and Kim Yong Il ever did.

In Brussel, the relation between industry lobbyists and EU members of parliament is said by insiders to be around 50 lobbyists per 1 member of parliament. The relation between industry lobbyists and consumer protection lobbyists is said to be 200:1.


I don't ask these questions to insult or belittle you, Sky, I just want to understand what model of society you would like to see.
Not yours. We have had it for some decades now, and it costed us dozens of trillions, and a whole historic era of freedom and democracy going down the drain. Or better: getting sold away.



Highly unlikely, my friend. We're a huge economy. The largest of any single nation on the planet. That economy is made of over 300 million people, over half of which need to get somewhere on a daily basis. No amount of wisdom or environmental consciousness is going to change that. It all boils down to the agenda of the individual, not that of society.
Wait and see. You are too self-convinced.


If the oil runs out,
No: when.


it will be the market that dictates the change to an alternative fuel source. Not you. Not me. Not anyone. There is no political entity on the planet that can effectively govern the wills of the multitudes. The only thing that politicians can govern is popular sentiment, and even then they only manage to do it in election years. The market is the ultimate judge of all things. Nothing can stand in the way of the Adam Smith's "invisible hand".
I know you live by that old economic theory. Some economists in the Anglosaxon world do that, too. Most economists world-wide do not. Usually the classica economy theory gets presented by people of the establishment who have to loose proifts if the sttaus quo, no matter how desastrous it is, would get massively changed. In other words: corrections get prevented to spend another years with collecting the cream before everything breakes apart.

You do not leanr swimming when jumping into the water the first time - then you would drown. You better learn it before you jump into the deep water.

I stop here, because I think discussions between us are pretty much useless. The world continues to run by either your model and will mess up even more, for the same reasons that you propagate, or it will try new ways, and maybe finds a small chance, however unlikely that is, or messes up anyway. I prefer a small chance over no chance. but never forget on thing - it is the thinling of that economy model you propagate, that has broiught us to where we are: a dysfunctional, corrupted gopobal economy with corrutoped elites and impotent politics that are not independant from the economy lobbies that have taken them hostage.

Actually, as long as I've got you here, what would you say to another chess match? I've been practicing:DL

If you really want that, go ahead. :smug: But the Gunny this time will not help you. ;)

[Platapus]

So does sexual perversions.


You say sexual perversions like it was a bad thing. I resemble that remark!

[UnderseaLcpl]

So does sexual perversions. Or pressing the red button. Or becoming choleric. It makes things happening.

Last time I checked those things werten't a mechanism for self-sustaining productivity.


It depends on what gets done. Egoism today does mostly bad things. Altruism focusses not on oneself's benefit, but on the other's benefit.
(A) I'd like to see you or anyone else demonstrate altruism on a regular basis that can hold a candle to what private industry does every day as a matter of course. Even Mother Theresa's contributions are nothing compared to the vast amount of wealth and social growth that the market generates.

(B) You cannot prove that egoism does mostly bad things within the context of private industry. An economy worth $17 trillion that provides comfortable liveleyhoods for over one-hundered million people says you're wrong.


The info on the different chemicals was given by insiders.

And? That's what people do, even when they are employed by the entity in question. Corporations are not any more evil than anyone else, Sky.

Because oil lobby is amongst the strongest there is, lobbying for oil spends more money than other lobbies, and the briberies being given in connection with the oil business surpasses that in most other business fields.
Quite correct. The oil lobby is very strong, but so are the farm and steel and automotive and textile lobbies, along with a dozen others. The problem is not with the lobbies themselves. They're just doing what we gave them incentive to do. The problem is with the mechanism we gave them to lobby, i.e. the state.

I've been trying to tell you this for what, two years now?



Information is one thing, lobbying is a very different thing. And corruption is corruption. Lobbying means manipulating legislation, bypassing the intention of laws, and betraying the voters, claiming more power for lobbyists than the voting people. It is the ultimate hijacking of democracy.


Really? Lobbyists manipulate legislation? How did you ever figure that one out?

C'mon Sky, I may not be as smart as you, but I'm not retarded. I'm just as aware of how dangerous centralized authority is as you are. And yet, you seem to hold on to some misguided belief that the state can "set things right".

I blame corrupted commerce and industry lobbies, becasue they are criminal and cause more damage to our socieities than Saddam and Kim Yong Il ever did.
Do they? That's an irresponsible claim and you know it. No private industry has ever massacred half a million Kurds or started a war or forced 25 million people to live in poverty and darkness. Only governments wield such power.


In Brussel, the relation between industry lobbyists and EU members of parliament is said by insiders to be around 50 lobbyists per 1 member of parliament. The relation between industry lobbyists and consumer protection lobbyists is said to be 200:1.

That's what happens when you give peple a powerful state to co-opt.


Not yours. We have had it for some decades now, and it costed us dozens of trillions, and a whole historic era of freedom and democracy going down the drain. Or better: getting sold away.
Okay, where is yours? If my way of doing things is so bad, why do you not have an alternative? You don't have a system by which we place altruistic angels in state offices, and neither does anyone else.

What you have is a list of grievances for which you are willing to blame other people and a vague notion that everyone else should do everything "better' because you wish it. You might as well build a car with a wind-powered engine.


Wait and see. You are too self-convinced.

So are you, but the difference between us is that I can generate economic productivity through investment. What have you created?
I have complete confidence in the ability of private industry and consumers to create and sustain a sustainable fuel economy. That's all they've ever done, so why would anyone expect anything different?


No: when.

When, indeed. Oil production continues to climb, despite the worries of concerned persons like yourself. It may run out someday, but I seriously doubt it. Even if it does run out, there will be an alternative fuel source. Didn't we learn this already?

I know you live by that old economic theory. Some economists in the Anglosaxon world do that, too. Most economists world-wide do not.
No, most economists you have heard of who have an agenda to pursue refute classical economic theory because they want free money from the state.


Usually the classica economy theory gets presented by people of the establishment who have to loose proifts if the sttaus quo, no matter how desastrous it is, would get massively changed. In other words: corrections get prevented to spend another years with collecting the cream before everything breakes apart.

Negative. Classical economic theory is often presented by economists who know what works because they grew up in a successful economic model. Read Friedman.


I stop here, because I think discussions between us are pretty much useless. The world continues to run by either your model
What? The world doesn't use anything even remotely close to my model. The concepts of free trade and limited government are alien to any major state in the world.

and will mess up even more, for the same reasons that you propagate, or it will try new ways, and maybe finds a small chance, however unlikely that is, or messes up anyway. I prefer a small chance over no chance. but never forget on thing - it is the thinling of that economy model you propagate, that has broiught us to where we are: a dysfunctional, corrupted gopobal economy with corrutoped elites and impotent politics that are not independant from the economy lobbies that have taken them hostage.

No, my friend, it is not the free market that has brought us here. It is the state that has brought us here. The corrupted elites are here because we gave them a place to live.




If you really want that, go ahead. :smug: But the Gunny this time will not help you. ;)


Outstanding!:salute: I'll start a thread as soon as I get off from work. White or black?

[Skybird]

Last time I checked those things werten't a mechanism for self-sustaining productivity.
Oh, they can be that, can't they.



(A) I'd like to see you or anyone else demonstrate altruism on a regular basis that can hold a candle to what private industry does every day as a matter of course. Even Mother Theresa's contributions are nothing compared to the vast amount of wealth and social growth that the market generates.
An economy being run by responsible motives can contribute to the people'S needs. In an economy run by ruthless egoism that does not care for altruzistic motives, people are used to serve the craving of the few for more profits.

(B) You cannot prove that egoism does mostly bad things within the context of private industry. An economy worth $17 trillion that provides comfortable liveleyhoods for over one-hundered million people says you're wrong.
The debt level of that 17 trillion economy is 13 trillion currently, and is set to reach 18 trillion within the next 5 years. That's what one calls a failing economy system: it does not produce lasting results, but consumes itself. Boston economy professor Kostlikoff, as I quoted him in anothe rthread just days ago, forsees that soon the Greek will be better off than the americans, becasue at least the Greek have gotten the wakeup call. America is still sleeping and thinks it can solve the issue by printing more money and making more debts (pushing inflation that way that, if you want to hinder it going on a stampede needs tight state regulation. I hate the inflation part in it, you hate the regulation part in it).


And? That's what people do, even when they are employed by the entity in question. Corporations are not any more evil than anyone else, Sky.
The point is BP preferred to buy and use the more expensive one which is more dangerous to the cheaper, less dangerous one, becasue that way it could sack in anotherprofit. The damage done that way once again is externalsied (handed over to the public and taxpapyer). that is both cyncial and criminal behavior. That is as if I beat you up with that sort of sticks I sell, just to additionally sell you the bandage afterwards. Ain'i I helpful?


Quite correct. The oil lobby is very strong, but so are the farm and steel and automotive and textile lobbies, along with a dozen others. The problem is not with the lobbies themselves. They're just doing what we gave them incentive to do. The problem is with the mechanism we gave them to lobby, i.e. the state.

I've been trying to tell you this for what, two years now?
As usual you totally ignore the massive ammount to which this state is being corrupted by the industry so that legislation and decision-making serves the industry's interests. I cannot see communities of multi-million people functioning without a form of a state-like authority giving general rules, order and structure - it would be a condition of anarchic constant war of all against all, militarily, economically - in every regard. They have hijacked the state, and that way have more politically unlegitimated power than the voters (which in a democracy should be the most powerful entiti, right?) On the other end of the spectrum you have the state, especially in europe, promising social over-supply and socialistic ideas to bribe voters. when politicians became a life-long career to opt for, they lost scruples to sell away our childrens future for the party of today- hoping that they already will have left office and will be dead once the cleaning needs to be done.

You criticice the "state" a lot. but you are completely ignorrant to the massive role of your beloved "egoism" and your unregulated market economy in turning the state into what it is today: an entity so much interwoven with the economy that it can no longer act independantly from it. Often it is that where the economy and the banks are moving, politicians must follow. rules and trails get marked along the way - not by leadership of an independant policy, but the desires of economy. This dependance has done a lot of damage to our communities.

Really? Lobbyists manipulate legislation? How did you ever figure that one out?
You are not trying to tell me you are that naive, are you? That is part of the job description for a lobbyist. If he does not acchieve that, he is not worth the wages you pay him.


C'mon Sky, I may not be as smart as you, but I'm not retarded. I'm just as aware of how dangerous centralized authority is as you are. And yet, you seem to hold on to some misguided belief that the state can "set things right".
Not if it is just an appendix to the banks and economy, and throws away more money than the economy can responisbly produce to bribe voters for bringing this or that politiican or party to power. But the principle staement stays that the state is the authority that protects and must protect the many from the few - by legislation. that means an economy that is left to itself and self-regulation, running by mere egois and profit interest alone, inevitably tries to erase competition, tries to raise monopoles, and tries to make own profits even to a degree and in ways where that means damage of the communal interests of the many. Because egoism does not care for others, just for oneself. Only if it gets channeled and balanced by somethign that is outside itself, it can produce wwealth for the others too without selling away our future by destroying it for the sake of maximising the present'S incomes. That'S what makes your rcipe of a "pure ecojomy" a 100% bid for cultural suicide, always and inevitably.

Our conflict also is about materialism versus non-materialistic ethics, of course.


Do they? That's an irresponsible claim and you know it. No private industry has ever massacred half a million Kurds or started a war or forced 25 million people to live in poverty and darkness. Only governments wield such power.

Wrong. The massive industry influence in governmental politics decides on the government's policies on wars and non-wars, too. Also, the massive dependance on ressources. that is true for Africa (rare ores, for example), and of course for oil. It has been said that the difference between tyrannies and democracies is that the first do the killiung themselves, the latter let others do the killing - in the name of one'S own interests. It has also been shown that since the beginning of the 20th century and with exclduing the two world wars, demciracies at least are directly and indirectly respomnsible for the mass killing of more people than tyrannies have killed by their own hands in the same time. It was quite a discussion some years ago when those historians examining this had published their statistics several years back.

I also remind of the Halliburton and big oil controversy over Iraq, and the pipeline projects that mujst be seen in connection with Afghanistan (although in case of the latter it was not the only reason, obviously).


That's what happens when you give peple a powerful state to co-opt.

Nobody votes for democratic structures in order to see them hijacked by more powerful egoists claimign the right to install shadow governments. Lobbying agencies and democratic states are like trying to extinguish fire by spilling gasooline into it. It works only to quite a contrary effect. Lobbyists are b eyond voter's control and awareness, and they work to overthrow the desires expressed by voters in the election if the crowds had not been talked into lining uip their desires with the profit interests of the corporations. and that is corrupting democracy, nothing else. In other words: high treason.


Okay, where is yours? If my way of doing things is so bad, why do you not have an alternative? You don't have a system by which we place altruistic angels in state offices, and neither does anyone else.
I have shown you a mind experment one year ago or so, haven't I. I jst do not repeat it time and again. To you, everything will be good if the economy is left to itself and can become as egoist and craving for more as it wants, according to the motto of Michael Douglas in the first Wall Street movie. You doom all state because you see all it's evilcoming just from itself. your very big fault is that you totally ignore that a community needs any form of community structure that also shields it from too far-reaching claims for more profit from the few, and you also totallymignore that the state you hate so much very massively gets corrupted by those holy actors of economy you want to give absolute power while hoping that they would be more reasonably acting than politicians. That both are failing in their sense of respnsibility, you never adress. One year ago, I pointed out that failure of both, in that long essay where I experimentally imagined a "feudal" elite that is driven by a code of responsibility and is independently enough from both economy and the people so that it can balance both side's interests against each other without needing to get corrupted by any of them. Of course, that model is just a variation to democracy, and feudalism before. The basic problem of all three is that none of them guarantees to get a leading elite that is reasonably and honourful and altruistic and non-egoistic. but at least I spend a lot of time to show that both present democracies and your self-regulating market fail for the very same reason: the egoism of people overruling long-termed sense of responsib ility and reasonability.

Maybe we need a world dicatorship by computers, like in that old movie, "Colossus".

I also remind of that long essay of mine some months ago, where I summarised how we do destroy ourselves even for absolutely reasonable reasons. http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=159065

tbc



So are you, but the difference between us is that I can generate economic productivity through investment. What have you created?
Nothing about investement, as long as it is a responsible and constructive one. But yopu can also do destruvtive investements, or trying to generate a profit by producing nothing or by dm,aaging others or the community. Short sales are one example, or hedge funds. Both claim profits for offering nothing by themselves. Either they damage others by taking what is theirs, or they do longterm dmaage to the system itself by fueling inlfation - when money just gets printed to compensate the loss of the victims. Both hedge funds and short sales are characterised by that the victim that gets robbed, gets nopthing in return. Short sales even sell something that they do not even own. that is very abstract, nothing constructive at all. It is an economy that runs amok because it is in certain fields too unregulated, (while in others it is overregulated, yes).

I have complete confidence in the ability of private industry and consumers to create and sustain a sustainable fuel economy. That's all they've ever done, so why would anyone expect anything different?
I haven't, becasue of additional vaiables palying a role here: time left, population density, resources available. Read Jared Diamond "Collapse. Why Societies choose to fail or succeed", which is a very competent and accessible summary of the matter. There is a real, a material, and physical environment within which all what man does take splace. We must get along with the limits it sets. If we cannot mamage that (our population desnity for example), we exticnt ourselves. Many cultures - that thought like you do - have done that in the past, btw. The book lists them on hundreds of pages. surving only those societies did, who by insight or lucky coincidences of several factors beyond their awareness managed to control their own poplation size and implemented strict rules on how to handle the limited resslources available.Some of these socieites survived for remarkable ammounts of time, and even survived in times or troubles that would have crushed others.

Becasue the problem is that when their is more resources thn are needed, nobody thinks of saving and storiung reserves, and to maintain the current population size nevertheless, but everybody immediately thinks of expansion. Sooner or later expansion leads to more population than the former sufficient ressource level could supply. And without need, the culture that before lived in wealth, now lives in poverty and pain. Many such cultures died by - starvation. This is the most important lesson we need to learn: that we must find ways to reduce and than to caop global population levels, and that we need to cap consummation of natural resources as well, at a level where we do not take more than nature can resupplky, or than we give back. Currently, we take all that we can get, leaving a desert behind us. We are about to extinct ourselves, and I do not mean that just metaphorically.


When, indeed. Oil production continues to climb, despite the worries of concerned persons like yourself.
Last time I checked, it was in decline. the hiuge reservoirs are emptied below a level where they can be used within a economically profitable cost-profit ratio. Peak OPil does not mean that all of a sudden poil will be over. It means that the cost-profit ration has flipped over to the other side, making producing of oil more and more expensive until more and more parties cannot afford it anymore. Look at the Glf disaster. They are drilling at depths and on a risk level that 30 years ago nobody even considered to try. They do so becasue the easy-access reservoirs all have been sucked "empty" (costs to get more oil out of them are higher than profit can be generated by doing so).
there will be oil for another 150-300 yars, estimations say. But that does noit mean it will be affordable over all that time anymore. It won't. and by general trend, the price will not rise by speculations only, but because it'S availability on the market drops indeed.


It may run out someday, but I seriously doubt it. Even if it does run out, there will be an alternative fuel source. Didn't we learn this already?
If our desire for energy is higher than what nature can produce and replace or what we can produce by constructing facilities, and if the "fallouts" of that energy production (pollution, or storing burnt nuclear fuel) cannot be handled reliably so that they donot damage nature, then new energies fuels will not save us. So, it depends. but everything except wind cpomes at a price: even solar energy: currently some key materials needed for producing solar panels, are runnig short on the market. Or Lithium: the known Lithium reservoirs (key compent in accumulators to store electric energy) have been calculated in quantities they hold, because there are only three such reservoirs known in the world. The result - I read about it sometime during last winter - was that there is not enough Lithium to supply all the visions for those clean environment electric future dreams environmentalists forsee for us all. the demand of current population level is much bigher than what nature can supply.

No matter what kind of ore you dig for - it si limited in quantity, and digginf for it leaves traces, that sometimes, and more and more often, feeds back on man. May it be from intoxication of drinling water or falling of the natural ground water level with the accoridng effects for angruclture and natural habitats, may it be from social distortions caused by working conditions (from blood diamonds and precious ores needed by Western high tech industry fueling tyrannies and civil wars in Africa), may it be from financial debts increasing due to the costs for producing these materials. Everything isn loinked with everything else, nothing is for free, and every qaction of cours causes reactions and consequences - sometimes within our perception range, sometimes outside (and then tending to do even more damage becase since we are not aware of it, we do not adress it).


No, most economists you have heard of who have an agenda to pursue refute classical economic theory because they want free money from the state.
So says you.


Negative. Classical economic theory is often presented by economists who know what works because they grew up in a successful economic model. Read Friedman.
Economists and militaries have one thing in common: they tend to think that what has won the the past war necessarily will win them the next war as well. That things and times and the world do chnage meanwhile, is beyond them. The French costed that dearly with their Maginot line, which was a prodfuct of thinking in temr sof WWI - and the Germans simply bypassed both that line and that kind of thinking and came up with a new idea. America also fell victim to that error when invading Iraq, and in the Afghanistan war - one was very badly prepared due to a mixture of basing on old military thinking mixed up with some obscure ideas by Rumsfield who wanted to save money by scaling down force sizes for the mission. The anglosaxon way of adressing the current crisis is: more of the old recipes that have accumulated the damage so far. This also is because high profits that can only be maintained by sticking with thse old ways, are not wanted to be given up. that is a mixture of both "the dilemma of made investements" that I have repeatdeldy described in threads of the past months now, and stupid, short-sighted egoism. I time and again also see an alienating habit in american thinking, to prefer allowing damage taking place and then repairing it at higher costs, than trying to prevent it in the first.


What? The world doesn't use anything even remotely close to my model. The concepts of free trade and limited government are alien to any major state in the world.

[quote]No, my friend, it is not the free market that has brought us here. It is the state that has brought us here. The corrupted elites are here because we gave them a place to live.

You talk of the corrupted poiitical elites. You do not mean the corrupting economic elties that corrupt others becasue non-regulation gives them the freedom and space to do so.

I am on the leave now, for one, two or three days, not sure about, I visit friends, and my train is leaving in two hours, so chess will need to wait, and i think our discussion has come to the to-be-expected fruitless end anyway, so do not wonder that I am away for the time being. Time also is the reason why I do not run a correction reading (sometimes i do thta with longer pieces :) ), so excuse the usual many typos.