View Full Version : Sick of complaining...
Bulkhead
05-13-10, 08:27 PM
i mean not everyone by name, but it seems to me that alot of people here is in a vichous circle of "the terrible game" UBIsoft made. Because somone isnt happy of something every one else get on the ride....Very very wrong. Could anyone of yu make a better submarine sim??
To me this is a good start and SH5 and UBIsoft isnt that bad. I not saying its perfect...some of it UBIsoft have to take blame, but its not that bad as most of yu are applying....I am close to say "screw subsim" because its more than they deserve.
Use yur hed please.
Thanks for yu who understand, just have to get it off me heart:)
Kjetil
Bulkhead
05-13-10, 08:30 PM
And another thing, i not have any hard feelings to the people who disagree. I am open mind. (sorry my enlish)
codmander
05-13-10, 08:31 PM
geez you spell worse than me;)
I totally agree with you Bulkhead,
I too am sick of all the silliness that's going on with SH5.
Bulkhead
05-13-10, 09:12 PM
geez you spell worse than me;)
I know....sorry...i suck in enlish speak:)
Sailor Steve
05-13-10, 09:21 PM
Your English is much better than my Norwegian, so it's fine. We can understand you.:sunny:
Don't hate anyone too much. So many people had such high hopes, and when those hopes weren't realized of course they got upset and unhappy. Either the game will get fixed or it won't. I'm still hoping it will.
Thanks for chiming in. It's nice to hear from everyone, even those who disagree.
kylania
05-13-10, 09:27 PM
There's 12-15 posts on the front page of this forum alone that revolve around or have devolved into "Us vs Them" complaint fests. Either SH4 players vs SH5 players or Owners vs Non-Owners, or Everyone vs Ubisoft. It's gotten pretty ridiculous. :timeout: :wah:
Sailor Steve
05-13-10, 09:31 PM
Yes it has, but every time someone starts a new thread people are going to want to agree, and to disagree, and to state their opinions. It's a part of human nature.
Don't hate anyone too much. So many people had such high hopes, and when those hopes weren't realized of course they got upset and unhappy. Either the game will get fixed or it won't. I'm still hoping it will.
I see what you mean by this Steve, and I don't really ''hate'' them, but 3 months after the release, I think it would be time for them to move on.
SH5 will get better with time (of course with work), but not with insults, if you see what I mean...
Sailor Steve
05-13-10, 09:46 PM
I agree, but all you can do is fight them or ignore them. You'll never shut them up.
We're kind of stuck between anarchy and tyranny.
I agree, but all you can do is fight them or ignore them. You'll never shut them up.
We're kind of stuck between anarchy and tyranny.
Your words are pretty harsh. ;)
Time will arrange everything. :sunny:
krashkart
05-13-10, 10:01 PM
As they say, when it rains it pours. Three months may not be enough for the fires to die down completely, but if I'm gauging the feel of the forum correctly then we're almost out of the Dark Ages here. :sunny:
theluckyone17
05-13-10, 10:24 PM
Don't let it get to you. I was one of the loud mouth DRM-haters in the beginning (not anti-SH5, just anti-DRM). That was until my wife bought shampoo & conditioner that cost more than SH5 did. That kinda put things in the right perspective for me, so I quit shutting up about the DRM and just bought the darn thing.
Whatever's got people sparked up will die down after a while, and those of us who are getting by with SH5 (but oh so wishing it was better) will still be around.
mookiemookie
05-13-10, 10:42 PM
I agree, but all you can do is fight them or ignore them. You'll never shut them up.
We're kind of stuck between anarchy and tyranny.
I agree with the first part, but the second part is kind of my concern. I don't want to question the moderators at all, but....well I'm going to question the moderation of this forum here. I feel like this forum in particular has devolved into a very immature and poor place to have any kind of discussion about the game.
I quote from the rules:
We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!* and other immature rants. Like something or dislike something about a game, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms. There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general.
I see the SH5 forum as being exactly what the stated goals of the Subsim forums are trying to avoid. I understand that moderators walk a fine line between over-moderating and anarchy and free discussion is good, no matter what side of the debate you're on. But when a group of folks can pull the written equivalent of driving by your house and throwing a bag of dog crap out the window and on to your lawn - you kind of get a bit tired of it after a while. And that's exactly what I feel that these people who have no intention of buying/playing or having anything to do with SH5 are doing. They have absolutely nothing to contribute to this forum. Nothing they have to say is relevant, insightful or worth reading. It's just verbal (typed?) diarrhea, spewed out from some sense of being wronged by Ubi, disappointment over the game, frustration or wanting to feel superior to the "suckers" who bought the game, or even enjoy the game.
I say come down harder on this kind of behavior. Some may howl censorship, but how can you censor an idea when there's no true or substantial idea there? As it stands now, I feel like this forum has indeed been allowed to have unbridled idiocy to reign. The signal to noise ratio has been seriously degraded by people with nothing to add to the discussion except snide remarks and uninformed opinions. It's not a case of censoring differing opinions - it's a case of holding people to a higher standard of expression and putting forth their opinion in "reasoned and responsible terms." Something that's sorely lacking here.
gimpy117
05-13-10, 10:48 PM
+1!!!
I've been waiting for a thread like this. I think we just need to stop complaining. So what SH5 isn't perfect! Its tearing Subsim apart. do we want this game to be our Boxxy? hell no! :up:
Very well worded mookie!!
I wish my english was good enough to express myself as good as you did. :-?
Sailor Steve
05-13-10, 10:58 PM
Its tearing Subsim apart.
No, it's not. Not even close. Were you here for the 'Mod Wars'? That was a corker, but it died down and so will this eventually.
@ Mookie: What exactly do you think should be done. People are cheering your talk, but what is the real answer? Absolutly forbidding any dissent? Where would you draw the line?
robbo180265
05-13-10, 11:01 PM
@ Mookie: What exactly do you think should be done. People are cheering your talk, but what is the real answer? Absolutly forbidding any dissent? Where would you draw the line?
Yep there is the problem. I think the mods have done a brilliant job all things considered. I also agree that it is dying down to some extent, the patch brought a new wave of it - that's all.
Give it time.
@ Mookie: What exactly do you think should be done. People are cheering your talk, but what is the real answer? Absolutly forbidding any dissent? Where would you draw the line?
That's a problem, but...
It's not about dissent from those who tried the game and been disappointed, it's about those who did not try it and come every day posting crap since when? ...3 months now.
Fortunately, only few of them are still remaining.
And he's absolutely right when he says:
They have absolutely nothing to contribute to this forum. Nothing they have to say is relevant, insightful or worth reading.----
Edit:
You did not try the game Steve, and it's not the problem, why? simply because you don't flood this forum with crap everyday.
mookiemookie
05-13-10, 11:50 PM
@ Mookie: What exactly do you think should be done. People are cheering your talk, but what is the real answer? Absolutly forbidding any dissent? Where would you draw the line?
Well, there's the rub. I don't have the magical cure-all answer. As I stated, dissent is fine. There's always going to be people on either side of an idea. But I'd like to see things held to a higher standard of discourse. That's what I feel is lacking. And maybe its because in the past, there was no need to have a moderator step in to make sure that happened....things were self policing. People knew what was expected and acted accordingly. Here it seems like a free for all - people have very strong emotions on both sides of the line and I understand that can bring out the worst in people, but it seems like literate and worthwhile discussion has suffered as a result.
So I don't know what the answer is. Is it slap people on the wrist for every little post that doesn't meet some standard of quality? No, of course not. It is delete every post that doesn't toe some imaginary Subsim party line? Again, no of course not. But I think that some of the more habitual trolls and people that contribute nothing of substance should be told to shape up or move on.
Sailor Steve
05-13-10, 11:53 PM
So I don't know what the answer is. Is it slap people on the wrist for every little post that doesn't meet some standard of quality? No, of course not. But I think that some of the more habitual trolls and people that contribute nothing of substance should be told to shape up or move on.
You may be right. I don't have the answers either. I hope Neal does.
commandosolo2009
05-13-10, 11:56 PM
i mean not everyone by name, but it seems to me that alot of people here is in a vichous circle of "the terrible game" UBIsoft made. Because somone isnt habby of something every one else get on the ride....Very very wrong. Could anyone of yu make a better submarine sim??
To me this is a good start and SH5 and UBIsoft isnt that bad. I not saying its perfect...some of it UBIsoft have to take blame, but its not that bad as most of yu are applying....I am close to say "screw subsim" because its more than they deserve.
Use yur hed please.
Thanks for yu who understand, just have to get it off me heart:)
Kjetil
yer righteous youth my youth.. bombaclott!!!
I have spent the past couple of weeks reading through thread after thread and post after post about SH5, trying to decide whether to buy it or not. What i got from it was this:
People are not happy with the initial state of SH5 - Well tbh no one was happy with the initial release of SH3 or SH4 either and it took a couple of patches, plus a LOT of modding for each to be as fun as they are now. The modders in particular have made the games what they are today. GWX, RFB, TMO, RSRD, OM to name just a few in the huge collection of amazing mods which have shaped the games into anything you want them to be.
No one likes the DRM - While i tend to agree with hating the DRM, it's clearly stated on pretty much every site which sells the game what the DRM incudes and the fact that you require a constant net connection. Personally I would like to see this altered or removed, but hey.. they have to protect their product somehow (although their choice severely limits their consumer scope to those with permanent connections)
General spam/Hate posts - Everyone has an opinion and from what I gather from my short time on this forum, everyone is allowed to express that opinion openly (which is amazing and rare). However, reading the same thing line for line after 10 posts in a row, generally makes me want to stop reading the thread. This will also go the same for any Ubisoft community liason I would assume.
After all this, I still ordered the game. Why did I order it? For the same reason I ordered SH3 and SH4 when the same pattern was happening during the initial months of release. I knew that with all of the modding support from the amazing guys on these forums, the games would be improved no end and made more than playable in time.
Don't get me wrong, i'm not defending Ubisoft. From what I gather, this is the worst release to date. They should be ashamed of themselves for letting a product which they put their names on be released in such a poor state of finish. I just cant see the point in people arguing with each other on forums about it. What Ubisoft will more likely respond to is a calm, collected and structured argument from the people who pay their wages (Us). A rabble of "this sux" and "you should all be sacked" isn't going to make them want to interact with the community.
Anyhow, thats my pennies worth. Agree with it or disagree with it, it doesn't really matter. What matters is that people realise that the fix wont be over night. Ubisoft arent going to pull a glowing white rabbit out of a hat and please everyone. I have my fingers crossed that they fix the major un-moddable problems, then give the modding community a stable platform to work from and let them work their magic as they have done many times before.
We paid for a finished game and we got a beta release. Is like, I paid for a luxury holiday in Hawaii and I end up in a tent in Somalia. Of course, I can say.. hey, what the heck.. at least I'm out of the town, right?
Because of this kind of mentality, the quality of the services, products are day by day lower and we pay more money for less quality. And sad is that there is many people like the OP who actually encourage the thief's to continue robbing.
But I agree with one thing, there is way to much complaining from people who don't own and play the game. These people are complaining more than we do, which is weird. Those who play the pirated game or even mention about it, got banned right away, but those who don't own the game and are just complaining about it for months.. they are fine. If we open a thread to discuss a bug or something, right away the thread will be taken over by those who don't own the game and everything will end up in a flame with the never ending 'drm sux, sh3 rox' and so on. This is not right :nope:
I fully agree magnum. We have paid for the game. It should be complete and working, not in an alpha or beta stage. I think the point i was trying to make is that ... "its hard to find an icecube in a hailstorm".
Might be an idea for the stickied bugs thread to have its 1st post updated with a formatted list of valid issues to be fixed by Ubisoft. That way anyone coming from the outside in, can read the communities findings in 1 simple to read place, without having to sift through the "i hate you Ubisoft" posts. Just a thought. ;)
krashkart
05-14-10, 01:31 AM
I just cant see the point in people arguing with each other on forums about it. What Ubisoft will more likely respond to is a calm, collected and structured argument from the people who pay their wages (Us). A rabble of "this sux" and "you should all be sacked" isn't going to make them want to interact with the community.
If we open a thread to discuss a bug or something, right away the thread will be taken over by those who don't own the game and everything will end up in a flame with the never ending 'drm sux, sh3 rox' and so on. This is not right :nope:
Exactly, both posts. From Bleh's point, how can we hope to help the company help us if all they see is the cacaphony of generic rants. From Magnum's point, how the heck can the community hope to communicate a clear line of problem solving between members if the lines are being drowned out by (again) generic rants.
I think as responsible members we can all help keep the threads toned down enough to open those lines of communication again, and perhaps even turn the SH5 section of Subsim back into a place the suits and devs would feel welcome in. This is one of the larger sim communities, isn't it? So, we need to eliminate the in-house battle lines and unify ourselves into a common voice.
I know, I'm rambling. :DL
krash *out*
bamzors
05-14-10, 01:45 AM
Suggestion - moderators move complaining posts/threads into a new separate forum "Ubisoft complaints / feedback". SH5 bug reports can be moved into the existing bugs/glitches thread.
The policy would be the posts in this main SH5 forum should be directly of interest to those trying to get the most out of the sim, rather than indirectly by campaigning.
Bamzors
coasterdigi
05-14-10, 01:46 AM
Your words are pretty harsh. ;)
Time will arrange everything. :sunny:
Not harsh at all.
I agree that it's sometimes a chore to read the posts on this site. To be honest, I became almost physically angry reading the stuff about the patch--it's like people absolutely are not happy unless they're slamming a group of developers for 'ruining their lives' or some other ridiculous overstatement.
Yes, many of us feel slighted. However, many of us also realize that SH5 is an absolutely FANTASTIC platform for future mod development. I, for one, have no qualms whatsoever about being an early adopter. We will have a fantastic sub sim when it's all said and done, and i applaud the efforts of the modding community around here.
Ubisoft...well, they can suck it. The devs, though...I respect them. They didn't choose to release an unfinished game, and I don't fault them one bit. Hell, nobody here can dispute that, even if they'd released a PERFECT product, that our mod team would immediately jump in and make it better.
I dunno...I guess I feel like people that come here to complain are just rattling the bars, because, honestly, people that some to subsim are gonna be the people to download and install the mods anyway.
Sorry for the rambling. I've had a few Sam Adams this evening. But seriously--the dev team is not your enemy. Enjoy SH5 for what it is now. Look forward to what it will be tomorrow. If you feel compelled to jump on to the site and tell everyone that the game has a couple of bugs, well, be aware that WE ALL KNOW ABOUT IT and your comments make no contribution to the common good.
Bravo to the devs for plugging away.
/My two cents.
//Reread. I contradict my own point. Awesome. :)
I agree. I like Subsim forums because the community is mostly mature, but sometimes the whining in this forum is getting unbearable.
krashkart
05-14-10, 02:05 AM
I agree that it's sometimes a chore to read the posts on this site.
Yep. I was reading the back-and-forth between several other members in the feedback thread a couple nights ago. Your sentiment is shared.
even if they'd released a PERFECT product, that our mod team would immediately jump in and make it better.
Naturally. :up:
//Reread. I contradict my own point. Awesome. :)
Sam Adams is good beer. I might buy a case tomorrow night. :D
I agree. I like Subsim forums because the community is mostly mature, but sometimes the whining in this forum is getting unbearable.
Yes it is getting tiresome.
Suggestion - moderators move complaining posts/threads into a new separate forum "Ubisoft complaints / feedback". SH5 bug reports can be moved into the existing bugs/glitches thread.
The policy would be the posts in this main SH5 forum should be directly of interest to those trying to get the most out of the sim, rather than indirectly by campaigning.
Bamzors
I second that. At least a merged landfill if it would be easier. :DL
tonschk
05-14-10, 02:14 AM
i mean not everyone by name, but it seems to me that alot of people here is in a vichous circle of "the terrible game" UBIsoft made. Because somone isnt habby of something every one else get on the ride....Very very wrong. Could anyone of yu make a better submarine sim??
To me this is a good start and SH5 and UBIsoft isnt that bad. I not saying its perfect...some of it UBIsoft have to take blame, but its not that bad as most of yu are applying....
Kjetil
:yeah: I Totally Agree :up: :DL
http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/2048/63923281.png (http://img163.imageshack.us/i/63923281.png/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
.
aergistal
05-14-10, 02:24 AM
Could anyone of yu make a better submarine sim??
One person no, more working together yes. There are lots of free tools available to allow for the creation of a production pipeline. Why don't we start writing specifications?
tonschk
05-14-10, 03:02 AM
One person no, more working together yes. There are lots of free tools available to allow for the creation of a production pipeline. Why don't we start writing specifications?
May be , but I think is not a easy task
.
aergistal
05-14-10, 03:21 AM
May be , but I think is not a easy task
.
Not easy but not impossible. There are a lot of free tools and documentation. Even if we don't have a full-time dedicated team it doesn't mean it can't be done. And since the subsim users come from all over the globe we'd have developers available 24/24 a day.
You know that quote:
How do you eat an elephant?
One bite at a time.
the screen shot is lovely tonschk - the water is amazing!
i guess SH5 is a bit like Marmite - you either love it or hate it.
i dont have it yet but the screenies are gorgeous:yep:
@Sailor Steve & MookieMookie: i think this whole charade will pass, a storm in a tea cup. they - the dissenters, the ones MookieMookie is complaining about will run out of steam. the games not been out long - give it six months to a year and things will look different - for the game and here at Subsim: let 'em knock themselves out...
the less attention that is paid to it...etc etc
j_o_nn_y
05-14-10, 03:43 AM
Well I actually enjoy reading the posts from everyone. Even the haters and the trolls. It is quite amusing. I go on this site to pass the time at work as it is more interesting than that. :). I don't see why people are getting so upset as the same thing happened when every other Silent hunter came out.
I bought the game but I have not even installed it. I am looking to see on here whether it is stable enough and potentially give me enjoyment. This 1.2 patch should have given me the green light but unfortunately it sounds like it has not really fixed much at all and so I a wait the next patch if there is any.
:yeah: I Totally Agree :up: :DL
'a HUGE screenshot that will screw the topic'
.
Somebody said that Ubi rocks and SH5 is just great?!? Right!! Then here comes tonschk with a fine comment and the huge screenshots about nothing.
Man, you have to love it :haha:
doomlordis
05-14-10, 04:21 AM
I have been playing 1.2 for a few days now and really like it, sure i still need to mod the AI but i think the game is a real achievement, in the realm of sims i think it really is revolutionary.
tonschk
05-14-10, 04:57 AM
the screen shot is lovely tonschk - the water is amazing!
i guess SH5 is a bit like Marmite - you either love it or hate it.
i dont have it yet but the screenies are gorgeous:yep:
@Sailor Steve & MookieMookie: i think this whole charade will pass, a storm in a tea cup. they - the dissenters, the ones MookieMookie is complaining about will run out of steam. the games not been out long - give it six months to a year and things will look different - for the game and here at Subsim: let 'em knock themselves out...
the less attention that is paid to it...etc etc
Thank you , The screen was taken with my old and crappy nVidia 8800GT ( at most giving 8 - 12 FPS ) , now I need to install my brand new ASUS EAH5870 V2 DirectCU , I need to sort out the extra 8 pin connector cable , I bought this new video card just to play Silent Hunter 5 :yeah:
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/5227/p500eah5870v2.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/i/p500eah5870v2.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
Iron Budokan
05-14-10, 07:21 AM
Sick of complaining, so the OP posts a topic and complains.
Yes. I come here for the lulz.
Somebody said that Ubi rocks and SH5 is just great?!? Right!! Then here comes tonschk with a fine comment and the huge screenshots about nothing.
Man, you have to love it :haha:
Not the first time I've seen that. It's like "how can SH5 be bad, look at how purtty it is!" but I digress, sorry...
All I can say is, this is a forum about SH5, if things are wrong with the game this is the place people will talk about it. If a patch is half of what everybody was expecting, this is the place people will talk/vent/whatever about it.
Unless we're only allowed to express a negative opinion once, and then shut up? I think that's ridiculous, this is a forum with new threads created by different people and posts and discussions that will be answered everyday. If somebody is unhappy with the direction Ubi took SH5, of course he will end up expressing it more than just once. If I see somebody say "I can't imagaine going back to SH3 after SH5" then I'll be tempted to answer him with my opinion. And if three people say SH5 is great and I answer three times why I don't think it is, am I spamming?
Besides, if somebody is critical about SH5 and is pointing at the very real bugs and flaws, blame the game not the poster, for crying out loud.
Sick of complaining, so the OP posts a topic and complains.
Exactly, you see I answered his complaint about complainers with my complaint. Is anybody spamming? Of course not. This is what happens in forums.
TDK1044
05-14-10, 07:51 AM
The problem I have with this Publisher is that there has been no learning curve with the release of each new version of the game.
The Devs have done their best and worked long, long hours on this series, but with one hand tied behind their back by Ubisoft.
I find it totally amazing that as I read through bug problems posts here, that you can pull up the posts from the initial weeks after the release of Silent Hunter III and Silent Hunter IV and find very similar, and in some cases exactly the same issues.
Ubisoft's policy has been to release an unfinished, buggy mess, and then rely on patches and mods to fix it.
Why do they do this? Easy. Money. It costs a lot more to pay a full Dev Team for the necessary amount of development time than it does to pay a full Dev Team for a period of development time that is at least six to nine months shorter than necessary, and then pay a small patch team to patch the game after release knowing that the game will also be modded.
The OP is just happy to have any game at all. But this time, many people have voted with their wallets. This game is not selling in anything like the hoped for numbers. If that signals the end of the Silent Hunter franchise, then so be it.
As for the OP's argument about who here could do a better job of building a subsim; that's like buying a new car that is the newest version of your current car, and when you take it back to the shop to ask them to fix the many things that are wrong with it, the guy at the shop says "Yeah well, you try making one".
I hope that the fiasco of Silent Hunter V sees the end of the franchise. I also hope that a real Publisher with ethics produces a WWII subsim in the future, and that they spend the time and money and do it right. :)
danurve
05-14-10, 07:58 AM
Sick of complaining, so the OP posts a topic and complains.
Yes. I come here for the lulz.
:shucks:
That and I stubbornly keep hoping one day I'll find a reason to change my sig again. That way instead of just reading about the bugs I can "enjoy" them to.
Cowboy_Joe
05-14-10, 08:51 AM
You are perfectly right, those whiners are annoying me as well, I think they are dumb, you cannot say about SH5 anything else than this is one of the greatest games ever made, with no bugs and perfect challenging AI.
mookiemookie
05-14-10, 09:08 AM
the screen shot is lovely tonschk - the water is amazing!
i guess SH5 is a bit like Marmite - you either love it or hate it.
i dont have it yet but the screenies are gorgeous:yep:
@Sailor Steve & MookieMookie: i think this whole charade will pass, a storm in a tea cup. they - the dissenters, the ones MookieMookie is complaining about will run out of steam. the games not been out long - give it six months to a year and things will look different - for the game and here at Subsim: let 'em knock themselves out...
the less attention that is paid to it...etc etc
I think you're right, but let me make one thing clear - I'm not complaining about the existence of dissenters. Just the way that they're expressing their dissent.
Its not easy to moderate the forum these days and theres no easy way out of the current state. Its easy to state whats wrong, but much more difficult to find the fix. Its always a fine line between allowing opinions and banning.
The strong point of Subsim have always been both the mature members and the freedom, but during times when people don't think before they post, will put pressure on the mature members and let us to question the freedom we have here.
What would you rather have? Anarchy or Tyranny ?
The rules of the forum set the stage but the members carries out the act...
i mean not everyone by name, but it seems to me that alot of people here is in a vichous circle of "the terrible game" UBIsoft made. Because somone isnt habby of something every one else get on the ride....Very very wrong. Could anyone of yu make a better submarine sim??
To me this is a good start and SH5 and UBIsoft isnt that bad. I not saying its perfect...some of it UBIsoft have to take blame, but its not that bad as most of yu are applying....I am close to say "screw subsim" because its more than they deserve.
Use yur hed please.
Thanks for yu who understand, just have to get it off me heart:)
Kjetil
I am sick of the complaining about the complaining. We have a right to our opinions just like you do. If you don't like reading those threads, its simple don't click on them and read something you do like, like: OMGZZZZ!!!!!!111111111 SHVs is LEEEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YAY!!!!.
Bilge_Rat
05-14-10, 09:22 AM
- I'm not complaining about the existence of dissenters. Just the way that they're expressing their dissent.
what is the old saying as so sagely expressed by one of the founding fathers:
"I may not agree with what you are saying, but I will defend to the end your right to say it...unless you say something stoooopid, in which case STFP!!!"
:D
I have no problem with the SH5 forum being a free fire zone. Let everyone blow off steam here. Eventually, it will go back to normal.
Kpt. Lehmann
05-14-10, 09:25 AM
Cheers Dutch! Loved your post, mate! Just sittin' here tryin' to wake up, and your post did the trick. :har::haha::har:
Now are you gonna help clean the coffee off of my monitor?
The complaining is no different than the complaining we had with sh3 and sh4.
The big diference is that sh5 is actually better than the previous titles.
robbo180265
05-14-10, 09:30 AM
We have a right to our opinions just like you do. If you don't like reading those threads, its simple don't click on them and read something you do like.
I would agree if it were that easy.
Go back to TDK1044's post - what does that have to do with the subject of this thread?
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1392214&postcount=43
This happens all the time - someone jumps in either with a tenious link to the online protection , or an out and out hijack. Before you know it the innocent thread you were reading is full of yet more rants - that's what I object to.
If it were as easy as just not reading the negative posts - we'd all be doing it ;)
Cowboy_Joe
05-14-10, 09:31 AM
The complaining is no different than the complaining we had with sh3 and sh4.
The big diference is that sh5 is actually better than the previous titles.
You're perfectly right. DRM is OK in my opinion, it can help us to get rid of all those pirates and I congratulate UBI for implementing that stuff in their products. UBI and SH5 rules!
MataDirtyHarry
05-14-10, 09:37 AM
You're perfectly right. DRM is OK in my opinion, it can help us to get rid of all those pirates and I congratulate UBI for implementing that stuff in their products. UBI and SH5 rules!
Mate, no offense, but seeing your statement it makes me think if this is the right place to be for me ...
robbo180265
05-14-10, 09:39 AM
Mate, no offense, but seeing your statement it makes me think if this is the right place to be for me ...
I'm hoping that he was being ironic...
Kpt. Lehmann
05-14-10, 09:42 AM
You're perfectly right. DRM is OK in my opinion, it can help us to get rid of all those pirates and I congratulate UBI for implementing that stuff in their products. UBI and SH5 rules!
:har::har::har:
Ummm YEAH!:88)
Cowboy_Joe
05-14-10, 09:50 AM
:har::har::har:
Ummm YEAH!:88)
Why are you laughing? I don't understand, DRM is almost mandatory these days, considering that there are a lot of people playing games without actually buy them. And SH5 really rocks, amazing graphics, you cannot compare SH5 with SH3, which is pretty garbage.
Kpt. Lehmann
05-14-10, 10:01 AM
Why are you laughing? I don't understand, DRM is almost mandatory these days, considering that there are a lot of people playing games without actually buy them. And SH5 really rocks, amazing graphics, you cannot compare SH5 with SH3, which is pretty garbage.
Whatever. I'm not going to argue with a misguided child who obviously just fell off the banana boat.
Why are you laughing? I don't understand, DRM is almost mandatory these days, considering that there are a lot of people playing games without actually buy them. And SH5 really rocks, amazing graphics, you cannot compare SH5 with SH3, which is pretty garbage.
http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/9682/78426953.jpg
robbo180265
05-14-10, 10:12 AM
^^^:har:
aergistal
05-14-10, 10:21 AM
http://img63.imageshack.us/img63/4623/t1rz0b86.jpg
shut up. go play :arrgh!:
kylania
05-14-10, 10:22 AM
The simple solution is to apply DRM to posting. Require everyone to be constantly connected to the internet in order to post and I think you'll see trolling decrease just like you saw pirating decrease with Ubisoft's DRM system.
robbo180265
05-14-10, 10:23 AM
aergistal - that is quite the funniest thing I've seen in ages.
Now going to have to wipe coffee off the monitor:har:
aergistal
05-14-10, 10:25 AM
aergistal - that is quite the funniest thing I've seen in ages.
Now going to have to wipe coffee off the monitor:har:
well that pretty much resumes what I've read in the last few days :DL can I copy it over at the Photo Caption thread?
Sailor Steve
05-14-10, 10:27 AM
aergistal - that is quite the funniest thing I've seen in ages.
:yep: Very good!:rock:
The simple solution is to apply DRM to posting. Require everyone to be constantly connected to the internet in order to post and I think you'll see trolling decrease just like you saw pirating decrease with Ubisoft's DRM system.
:rotfl2:
You're right! I refuse to post in a forum that requires me to be connected to teh interwebs!
Wait, what...?
Kpt. Lehmann
05-14-10, 10:29 AM
You're right! I refuse to post in a forum that requires me to be connected to teh interwebs!
Wait, what...?
Damn torpedo mombers.
ALL UR MODS ARE BELONG TO US!
robbo180265
05-14-10, 10:35 AM
well that pretty much resumes what I've read in the last few days :DL can I copy it over at the Photo Caption thread?
You have to matey:up:
TheSatyr
05-14-10, 10:44 AM
Same thing we went through when SH4 was released...it will pass.
609_Avatar
05-14-10, 10:57 AM
The simple solution is to apply DRM to posting. Require everyone to be constantly connected to the internet in order to post and I think you'll see trolling decrease just like you saw pirating decrease with Ubisoft's DRM system.
LOL :haha:
I don't know about you guys, but making submarine sims is not my job, and of course, I could not make a better one.
I'm not a doctor either, but when I go to one, I expect him to do his job well as I try to do mine.
Imagine you go to a restaurant and order a steak. Instead of the steak, they bring you a burger, and it's half-cooked. You call the waiter and mention that it's not what you asked for and it's not even finished, and he replies: "Yes, but could YOU do any better?"
Would you go to that restaurant again?
SH5 has a solid engine that is capable of much. The DRM is very, very inconvenient, but I can live with it. The bugs on release were a bit over the top to be completely honest (yes, I bought it and played it) but I was willing to forgive that, since we all know the developers probably had less time than they would have wanted.
A patch that got delayed for localization reasons, had said delay announced in a different forum in a different language, and failed to include a number of the promised fixes even though they were completely unrelated to localization itself is a different thing.
Of course, SH5 is not the worst game ever released, there have been much, much worse examples. But it's not polished, it's only partially functional in some aspects, it included game-breaking bugs on release, etc.
Will that be fixed? Of course, with time.
Is it the first time it happens? Heaven forbid, no. We've seen it many times.
Is it the end of the series as we know it? Hardly, I'm not pessimistic about that either.
But still, nobody can really ask us to be happy, especially arguing that we couldn't code a better sub sim... :)
:yep: Very good!:rock:
:rotfl2:
You're right! I refuse to post in a forum that requires me to be connected to teh interwebs!
Wait, what...?
Bwahahahaha:har::har::har:
The simple solution is to apply DRM to posting. Require everyone to be constantly connected to the internet in order to post and I think you'll see trolling decrease just like you saw pirating decrease with Ubisoft's DRM system.
You're right! I refuse to post in a forum that requires me to be connected to teh interwebs!
Wait, what...?
Epic. :haha:
God, at least we some quality humor aboard :up:
tonschk
05-14-10, 03:06 PM
:DThe simple solution is to apply DRM to posting. Require everyone to be constantly connected to the internet in order to post and I think you'll see trolling decrease just like you saw pirating decrease with Ubisoft's DRM system.
I Agree , Good IDEA :yeah: ,GOOD News , from now on , Subsim forum will force everybody here to be connected on line ( DRM ) to search and post in the Subsim forum , :woot:
.
I am sick of the complaining about the complaining.
sigh...
It's not complaining about the complaining.
It's complaining about those who are continuously spammimg complaints (btw, those complains are only based on other complains since they did not try the game).
Big difference
----
Fortunately, only few of them are still remaining.
Nisgeis
05-14-10, 03:10 PM
:D
I Agree , Good IDEA :yeah: ,GOOD News , from now on , Subsim forum will force everybody here to be connected on line ( DRM ) to search and post in the Subsim forum , :woot:
.
It's a terrible idea! What if the subsim servers go down? It's not like it hasn't happened before! If the servers go down, we won't be able to post.
Nisgeis
05-14-10, 03:13 PM
I am sick of the complaining about the complaining.
Listen to this man, he knows what he is talking about:
If you don't like reading those threads, its simple don't click on them and read something you do like
Physician, heal thyself.
tonschk
05-14-10, 03:16 PM
I ABSOLUTELY and COMPLETELY reFUSE to be connected online to post in the SUBSIM Forum , The moderators got a WARNING :D, this is OUTRAGEOUS :har:, I order the moderators to sort out this problem :har:,
,
I order the moderators to sort out this problem :har:,
,
YES!!!
Or we will sue subsim :x
----
BTW tonschk, you forgot to insult them as much as you can in the hope they hear you and obey...
robbo180265
05-14-10, 03:32 PM
YES!!!
Or we will sue subsim :x
----
BTW tonschk, you forgot to insult them as much as you can in the hope they hear you and obey...
You know what?
I'm just gonna not buy their game. I wont bother telling them why I won't buy it , I just expect them to know...........
tonschk
05-14-10, 03:33 PM
YES!!!
BTW tonschk, you forgot to insult them as much as you can in the hope they hear you and obey...
To obey what :DL ? very very difficult to post in a forum without a internet provider :D
,
I hope you guys aren't trying to equate an internet forum with needing Ubi's continuous permission everytime we want to play a single player game. That's a little weak imho... :lol:
kylania
05-14-10, 03:59 PM
I hope you guys aren't trying to equate an internet forum with needing Ubi's continuous permission everytime we want to play a single player game. That's a little weak imho... :lol:
http://img.moronail.net/img/3/7/1037.jpg
robbo180265
05-14-10, 03:59 PM
I hope you guys aren't trying to equate an internet forum with needing Ubi's continuous permission everytime we want to play a single player game. That's a little weak imho... :lol:
:har:
To obey what :DL ? very very difficult to post in a forum without a internet provider :D
,
This guy is my hero. Really. No matter what ...he just love SH5.
AI si bugged, stuff not work right? So what, frak it! He just love to play this game. Really, sometimes I feel stupid about complaining. Yes, I own the game, I feel raped by Ubi.. but hey... there is tonschk. And this guy somehow is damn happy playin SH. 5. Yeah.. no comment.
http://img.moronail.net/img/3/7/1037.jpg
kylania I don't get it, who's suppose to be the troll? You, me, or the ones trying to compare a forum to DRM?
Nisgeis
05-14-10, 04:03 PM
kylania I don't get it, who's suppose to be the troll? You, me, or the ones trying to compare a forum to DRM?
I think he means you, but I have no real idea. If you don't like this post... don't read it!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYU7oG2V7uc
Troll-ololololol.
I have no personal opinion on whether or not you are a troll or not.
kylania
05-14-10, 04:13 PM
kylania I don't get it, who's suppose to be the troll? You, me, or the ones trying to compare a forum to DRM?
Me, for suggesting we institute DRM on the forums making everyone need to be online in order to post here and suggesting that it would cut down on trolling just like it cut down on piracy. :O:
Me, for suggesting we institute DRM on the forums making everyone need to be online in order to post here and suggesting that it would cut down on trolling just like it cut down on piracy. :O:
Does DRM cut down on piracy? :lol:
edit: scratch that question, don't even want to go there...
Listen to this man, he knows what he is talking about:
Physician, heal thyself.
All the "man" is doing is creating yet another thread on the same subject which has been discussed numerous times, which is to silence or belittle others opinions, and has failed. It would be like me starting a thread titled "I am sick of people liking the ***** game". What good does it do and what purpose does it serve other than to ruffle feathers.
Of course you would use that remark. I can tell that you do not agree with my opinion which is fine, your are entitled to it thus sayeth the law. But I fail to see how your little quote has any relevance at all to my post. I did not attack his opinion nor did I belittle it (well perhaps slightly at the end but that was just a joke, no real insult meant) But if some one is going to start a thread attacking my position on the game and/or its situation, then I have every right to defend it. Where as he does not like reading the complaint threads, so be it, don't read them.
My stance on SHV is that cool the graphics look nice, hey I get to walk through the sub and "talk" to crew members. Hey thats never been done before how novel. Wait. What? They only released half the game (no doubt with intentions of releasing 43-45 as either a DLC or possibly SHVI). Wait there are terrible bugs in the game (I do not use game breaking because the game is technically still playable.). What? Not only was the patch release pushed back, but they weren't even able to correct some of the bugs they said would be fixed. Oh nooos my internet is on the blink and I can not play the game that I purchased with my money, while pirates who stole it can play it without issue. Geez looks like the pirate life isn't so bad after all.....:arrgh!:
Ok so others can look past those glaring faults in the game. But of course if it weren't for the ones who pointed them out and complained about them, they would never get fixed. Of course that is assuming (Oh God that word) UBI is even listening to the sub sim community. You don't have to look at our opinion like its some sort of plague, its constructive criticism, and yes criticism can sometimes be harsh.
Don't let someone else's opinion of the game detract from yours. Think for yourself. If you like it and someone else doesn't, well surprise surprise you can't please everyone.
Cheers Dutch! Loved your post, mate! Just sittin' here tryin' to wake up, and your post did the trick. :har::haha::har:
Now are you gonna help clean the coffee off of my monitor?
Hey I was writing that with a cup of joe as well. Sorry bout the monitor mate, but look at the bright-side, atleast it made your morning.:up:
I would agree if it were that easy.
Go back to TDK1044's post - what does that have to do with the subject of this thread?
http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1392214&postcount=43
This happens all the time - someone jumps in either with a tenious link to the online protection , or an out and out hijack. Before you know it the innocent thread you were reading is full of yet more rants - that's what I object to.
If it were as easy as just not reading the negative posts - we'd all be doing it ;)
Ok that is a fair point. I think what TDK is trying to do is make people understand that our complaining is legitimate whether you agree or not. But yes has far as hijacking threads that does happen alot, especially during the early days of release.
Bit off topic but speaking of hijacking, Never, EVER, have a friend named Jack and pick him up at an airport. You bound to yell Hi Jack, and some idiot will mistaken it for hijack. Just another ROTFLMAOCopter, that I have had happen to me. Wasn't funny at the time believe me, lol.
PS. My post is not aimed at offending someone, if it does, then you have incredibly thin skin.
Sailor Steve
05-14-10, 06:22 PM
It's a terrible idea! What if the subsim servers go down? It's not like it hasn't happened before! If the servers go down, we won't be able to post.
Why are you so negative? I've never, ever had a problem with the Subsim servers! This forum is perfect and has never had a fire, or needed an upgrade, and your worries are groundless.
In fact I................................................. ..........
Hello? Are you there?
Task Force
05-14-10, 06:36 PM
Well theres a solution...
If it looks bad, dont click it.
Just delete the forum and make this section only, it should fix everything.
http://www.longam.net/sh4/wab.jpg
I completel*.........................you have lost connection to the subsim server please wait while we verify that you do have a working copy of subsims forum..........
..........
..........
.........
.........
........
.......
........
........
........
........
.......
.......
......
......
.....
.....*connection verified
y agree something absolutely needs to be done about this.Wait......wtf just happened?
Nordmann
05-14-10, 09:34 PM
Just delete the forum and make this section only, it should fix everything.
http://www.longam.net/sh4/wab.jpg
HA! Isn't that the truth of it! :yep:
Moeceefus
05-15-10, 04:14 AM
i've noticed several of the same folks who constantly complain and spew hate about sh5, are also on here posting stories of thier campaigns. many from 41 and beyond. i know if i hated a game as much as some of these people claim to, i would not have gone as far into the campaign. perhaps the drama is more fun, or as i'd like to think, there is a special little place for sh5 in all you haters hearts. so despite what some of you say, its nice to see you're enjoying yourselves. happy hunting. :yeah:
Bulkhead
05-15-10, 06:53 AM
Oh my...Why did i start this. Now i regret it.
Subsim is a good site and SH5 is a good game, for my taste. I vote for trying to make best of it and continue helping each other. My initially issue with this was the few who complains because of others doing it and then they go with the mainstream, and the few who not own the game and hate everthing about it, but still keep posting here about how sad he is and "i give up SH5" kind of thing.
I for sure will not feel sorry for any of them. Try the game first with a mod or two before sending SH5 to the seabed...
As for now i try just reading posts and threads.:salute:
JScones
05-15-10, 07:38 AM
You expected your "Stop yer bitchin'!!1!" thread to be different than all the other "Stop yer bitchin'!!1!" threads? :hmmm:
robbo180265
05-15-10, 07:40 AM
You expected your "Stop yer bitchin'!!1!" thread to be different than all the other "Stop yer bitchin'!!1!" threads? :hmmm:
Actually I do think its different to the others.
Members from both battlelines have got together and discussed the arguing that's been going on - without arguing!
JScones
05-15-10, 07:42 AM
YOU'RE WRONG!!!!
Now is it like all the other threads? :D
BTW: This thread did introduce Cowboy_Joe ;)
robbo180265
05-15-10, 07:45 AM
YOU'RE WRONG!!!!
Now is it like all the other threads? :D
BTW: This thread did introduce Cowboy_Joe ;)
:har:
Oh I hope Cowboy_Joe makes an appearance this morning, he was funny!
If the complaints are backed up by evidence, put across in a clear manner with a listing of problems and have been obersved by multiple peoeple, it's a good thing. How else will developers know what's annoying their fan base, learn from their mistakes and make improvements? Complaints will also keep developers and publishers from resting on their laurels and becoming lazy.
My pet hate is threads where you have a poster putting forward legitimate complaints about problems with a product and listing these problems in a clear manner. You then have, for want of a better term, 'Fanboys' arriving to defend against problems by attacking the poster themself rather than tackling the points they make. This type of response to an argument is called 'ad hominim' and is the sign of a weak-minded person that can't put across their own counter-arguement against the points being made by the other person.
Of course you also get the polar-opposite of 'Fanboys' in the form of people who simply come up with generalised complaints such as "This game sucks", without going into detail of why they have come to that conclusion. These are appropriately called "Whiners" :)
Unfortunately, forums are always going to be littered with this type of crap content because it's easy to be retarded when shielded by online anonymity. You have to remember that there are a LOT of idiotic people in the online world (I'd argue they are the majority too). Why else do you think email spammers continue to make money ;)
i mean not everyone by name, but it seems to me that alot of people here is in a vichous circle of "the terrible game" UBIsoft made. Because somone isnt happy of something every one else get on the ride....Very very wrong. Could anyone of yu make a better submarine sim??
To me this is a good start and SH5 and UBIsoft isnt that bad. I not saying its perfect...some of it UBIsoft have to take blame, but its not that bad as most of yu are applying....I am close to say "screw subsim" because its more than they deserve.
Use yur hed please.
Thanks for yu who understand, just have to get it off me heart:)
Kjetil
OK i understand you. But please understand this, all players here had high expectations about this game. Because they showed and served like that.
By the way, im not a programmer or else but YES i could do much more better game than this!
robbo180265
05-15-10, 12:33 PM
By the way, im not a programmer or else but YES i could do much more better game than this!
Well if you need beta testers - you know where to find us :yeah:
Bulkhead
05-15-10, 02:54 PM
OK i understand you. But please understand this, all players here had high expectations about this game. Because they showed and served like that.
By the way, im not a programmer or else but YES i could do much more better game than this!
Let me know.
And obviously theres not mutch understanding around, so here is my complain: This was my last written thread that i start. Maybe the expectations was too high.
Happy hunting Capitanos. I wish yu many many tons on the bottom of the seas:) That goes to all of yu
Nisgeis
05-15-10, 03:12 PM
All the "man" is doing is creating yet another thread on the same subject which has been discussed numerous times
The "man" I was referring to was you, as I quoted you. I'm not referring to any thread you started.
Of course you would use that remark. I can tell that you do not agree with my opinion which is fine, your are entitled to it thus sayeth the law. But I fail to see how your little quote has any relevance at all to my post. I did not attack his opinion nor did I belittle it (well perhaps slightly at the end but that was just a joke, no real insult meant) But if some one is going to start a thread attacking my position on the game and/or its situation, then I have every right to defend it. Where as he does not like reading the complaint threads, so be it, don't read them.
Why of course would I use that remark?
But anyway, you posted to say that you were sick of the complaints about the complaints and advised the OP that if he didn't like reading the compaints, then he should just not read them.
So, if you don't like reading the complaints about the complaints, why didn't you follow your own advice and simply not read them? The problem would be solved for you no?
There are far fewer complaints about complaints threads than there are complaints threads. Have a bit more tolerance. The poeple who complain about the complaints complain far less than those who just complain.
EDIT: Oh and I do agree with your opinion that complaints about complaints are pointless, but I also think that posting complaints (repeatedly) here is also pointless.
krashkart
05-15-10, 03:21 PM
You have to remember that there are a LOT of idiotic people in the online world (I'd argue they are the majority too). Why else do you think email spammers continue to make money ;)
I resent that statement! u suck an r teh devil! :stare:
JK :DL
Anyone read any good YouTube commentary lately? :har:
Oh my...Why did i start this. Now i regret it.
And obviously theres not mutch understanding around, so here is my complain: This was my last written thread that i start. Maybe the expectations was too high.
Happy hunting Capitanos. I wish yu many many tons on the bottom of the seas:) That goes to all of yu
Hey... where d'ya think you're going? You think you could just start a thread like this, and then leave whenever you want?
http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/9318/46189306.jpg
robbo180265
05-15-10, 03:38 PM
Hey... where do you think you're going? You think you could just start a thread like this, and then leave whenever you want?
Bulkhead - so maybe the thread didn't work out how you wanted it to but you shouldn't let it put you off posting matey.
(Love Sopranos BTW)
Bulkhead
05-15-10, 05:02 PM
Ok, i take blame for writing a stupid thread that has been mentioned before.
Like i said, i am sick of the complain of the game of the people who not playing it or dont have it, the people that have to say that "i not bying this ****" and still spending time on it. I just dont get it...(me maybe stupid, no problem) and the last, the people who just get on the ride of the ones that actually have a reason for ther comments.
I see in some cases is getting out of hand.. Simple enuff?
Forgive me for giving up this right now.. I do regret for starting this for obvious reasons....
So, good luck!
The "man" I was referring to was you, as I quoted you. I'm not referring to any thread you started.
Why of course would I use that remark?
But anyway, you posted to say that you were sick of the complaints about the complaints and advised the OP that if he didn't like reading the compaints, then he should just not read them.
So, if you don't like reading the complaints about the complaints, why didn't you follow your own advice and simply not read them? The problem would be solved for you no?
There are far fewer complaints about complaints threads than there are complaints threads. Have a bit more tolerance. The poeple who complain about the complaints complain far less than those who just complain.
EDIT: Oh and I do agree with your opinion that complaints about complaints are pointless, but I also think that posting complaints (repeatedly) here is also pointless.
Ah ok lol see I wasn't awake quite yet when I replied to your post. And the first one, wasn't at all meant to be serious other than the fact of why did we need yet another one of these threads. By my count this is atleast the 9th or 10th Sick of complaints since the release.
I never stated that I didn't enjoy reading them. I just don't like the fact that someone is trying to tell me what my opinion should be. Thats all.
And still 90% of my post here was a joke. Atleast Kpt. Lehmann got it. If I can make one person laugh, I am successful.:up:
Ok, i take blame for writing a stupid thread that has been mentioned before.
Like i said, i am sick of the complain of the game of the people who not playing it or dont have it, the people that have to say that "i not bying this ****" and still spending time on it. I just dont get it...(me maybe stupid, no problem) and the last, the people who just get on the ride of the ones that actually have a reason for ther comments.
I see in some cases is getting out of hand.. Simple enuff?
Forgive me for giving up this right now.. I do regret for starting this for obvious reasons....
So, good luck!
Naw its not that your dumb, maybe your looking at it from the wrong point of view. You see them as complaint I see them as constructive criticism. I want them to continue making Sub Sims but I don't want them to do it the way they made SHV, I'm hoping that sales will persuade them to make a change back to 3-4. Its just feedback, and for the most part the human race hates negative feedback. Thats why it bugs you. No reason to feel dumb its just human nature, no one likes hearing bad things about themselves and it just carries over into other things.
krashkart
05-15-10, 07:48 PM
Ok, i take blame for writing a stupid thread that has been mentioned before.
Like i said, i am sick of the complain of the game of the people who not playing it or dont have it, the people that have to say that "i not bying this ****" and still spending time on it. I just dont get it...(me maybe stupid, no problem) and the last, the people who just get on the ride of the ones that actually have a reason for ther comments.
I see in some cases is getting out of hand.. Simple enuff?
Forgive me for giving up this right now.. I do regret for starting this for obvious reasons....
So, good luck!
Nah, don't be so hard on yourself Bulkhead. We know where you're coming from, and I think most of us would agree with you. If nothing else it makes for a good mostly-on-topic spam tin (in my case at least). You wouldn't believe how many threads I've started up and later thought "Gee, mebbe that was a lame topic", but in truth we all have our days when something just really needs to come off our shoulders. Better than having the dang thing rattle around in our heads till we go crazy, right? Happy sailing, mate. :salute:
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