View Full Version : If Ubi drops the ball... who takes up the baton? or SCS ve SES vs...
Sonarman
05-08-10, 08:54 AM
Silent Hunter 1-4: 1.5 million units ....SH5 sales probably not good!
HAWX 1 : 1 million units
Yes, it's easy to see the way the wind is blowing. Even Neal is depressed...
Silent Hunter 6... not going to happen.
The question is if Ubi drops the ball... who takes up the baton?
here are some possiblities...
Ilan Papini:
Developer of the Virtual Sailor series which has evolved for many years, Ilan has now branched into professional simulators (http://www.simsquared.com/) for the maritime & naval industry. As Ilan probably has little experience in game AI we could approach him to use the VS engine for a purely multiplayer game with surface vessels & subs, the focus would then be primarily on adding the technology, sonar, aa guns, guns directors, hedgehogs etc rather than the complex AI involved in formations/hunting etc.
VStep:
Developer of the Ship Sim series & professional maritime software. A much improved ocean system is promised for the new Ship Sim Extremes game coming soon could VSTep be enticed to use their maritime engine for a Subsim?
ESim games
Devs of Steel Beasts (http://esimgames.com/), this would be a dream come true, but highly unlikely as SBPro PE is largely military funded and the modern military don't have much use for a U-Boat simulator!
Sonalysts Combat Simulations... hardcore- please more
It would be very interesting to see Sonalysts (http://www.sonalysts.com/) take on a WWII game, not really their forte and perhaps a bit lacking graphically but their in depth simulation of real world hardware would be welcomed. But like SBPro 688/SC/DW were largely military funded and the modern military don't have much use for a U-Boat simulator!
Storm Eagle Studios ...beautiful AI/ugly UI
SES (http://www.stormeaglestudios.com/public/home.html) are the Devs of the excellent Jutland & Distant Guns, unlikely though as they view SH as an arcade game and their engine is not really geared up for it. I would love to see what they could do for a modern take on a Solomons style TF1942 though.
Artech Digital...."Mega Das Boot Assault II"
Artech (http://www.artechstudios.com/) are the guys who are bringing the first subsim to the consoles "Naval Assault" could they be persuaded to use their maritime engine for a full on PC subsim, who knows, they are no stranger to PC sim games having developed the fairly hardcore and very good "Megafortress" game in the early days of the PC and even the arcade/subsim "Das Boot".
The irrepressible Mr EAST
Our old friends EAST & Pioneer they certainly have the tenacity and determination to come up with something for us.
Danger from the Deep
DFTD is a great piece of work so far but still along way from being SH could our talented modders get on board to offer help to accellerate the development of this fledgling subsim?
Thriller Publishing
This company put together by ex Microprose CEO "Wild Bill" and staffers is a definite possibility now that they are looking to resurrect their back catalog (http://simhq.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/3001035/Re_M1_Tank_Platoon_sequel_Anno.html)tank sims. Could they do the same for Silent Service & Task Force 1942 & Red Storm Rising?
1C Maddox
Not as far fetched as you would think. Oleg has stated on several occasions that ground & naval units will be playable in multiplayer and highly moddable in Storm of war (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/23110283/m/7371056558/p/2) although flight sim fans are to busy frothing at the mouth at the aerial action to notice.
The Russians
Graviteam (http://www.graviteam.com/), Akella (http://en.akella.com/), IDDK (http://www.iddk.ru/en/about.html) the simulation market is large in Russia and we are seeing more and more PC games coming from there. Most of the games have been good in design but fallen a bit short on scenario & campaign length (Steel Fury/ T-34 vs Tiger etc ) and some suffer the curse of lets make it more casual/RTS like (PT-Boats). But more recent products like the stunning "Achtung Panzer 1943 (http://www.paradoxplaza.com/games/achtung-panzer-kharkov-1943)" have shown that truly deep and great games are possible and can be made available at a reasonable price.
Indie devs (the lone wolves)
Most likely perhaps is Thait an indie dev will take up the baton. we can already see this happening over on the iphone with the very promising Wolves of the Atlantic (http://forum.iphoneworld.ca/iphone-games/wota-wolves-atlantic-upcoming-u-boat-simulation-iphone-119470.html) by Mark Hessberg, perhaps Mark could "do the decent thing" and release a PC port instead of pandering to the "worm infested fruit machines" (I'm with you Adobe! :up:).
Old Friends (Take it home to daddy)
Maybe another contender would be companies that have branched off into serious games such as Ballyhoo studios (http://ballyhoo-studios.com/games.html)who have a very interesting back catalog! quote... "Silent Hunter, acclaimed by many as one of the best submarine combat simulations ever developed, was created by Ballyhoo partners Bill Becker and Kim Biscoe. The game recorded sales of over 400,000 units worldwide, and the Silent Hunter series continues to be popular."
Subsim.com (Yes... that means you!)
Could we go it alone and develop a game ourselves using an engine like Torque 3D etc? Or alternatively could we pledge funds and approach a developer to deliver us something that we design?
Approach Ubi for the source
Yet another alternative could be to approach Ubi to buy out the source code for SH 3 4 or 5 from to work on ourselves and release on a non-commercial basis.
The main problems I would for-see in licensing SH as open source (apart from the probably huge expense) from Ubi are...
1. They may wish to keep their options open for the future
2. The source code may have trade secrets they do not want exposed
3. Silent Hunter has always sold well as a series in budget Ubi licenses the title out to companies such as sold Out, Steam, D2D etc how are they going to feel if we suddenly come up with a better project based on the SH3/4/5 engine that is freely available?
While this idea may seem "far fetched" there is a precedent here in the case of SH2 when Neal employed an independent contractor who with Ubi's approval altered the original source to change the multiplayer engine in DC & SH2 from RTime to Direct Play.
Indie Competition
We produce a game requirements speification and offer a prize of say $5000 (from community donations) and post on every 3D indie game forum out there on the understanding that the winning project whilst credited to it creators would be copyright free open source at the end of the competition that could be used as a springboard for anyone who wished to take it further.
Out of the Blue... rinse & please repeat ?
Perhaps another never heard of developer like H2f who formerly designed hairdressing software and suddenly released the quite well thought of WWI subsim "Shells of Fury" will emerge to surprise us all.
Ubisoft... Splinter Cell :arrgh!:
Would it be possible for some of our friends in Romania to jump ship and start their own series?... possibly but they may be under contractual obligations not to and it's probably big risk for the guys to do so.
Very interesting thread.
I have absolutely no idea who would ''take up the baton'' but I bet it's gonna take many and many years before we see another U-boat sim.
I would like to see Neal's comment on it (or other very experienced and old time members). :hmmm:
Feuer Frei!
05-08-10, 09:46 AM
I would like to see Neal's comment on it (or other very experienced and old time members). :hmmm:
Neal's comment:
"Silent Hunter 6... not going to happen."
link here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=169061&page=3)
Nature abhors vacums. With its giant stumble, Ubi is creating the conditions for someone else to enter the the field. :)
Neal's comment:
"Silent Hunter 6... not going to happen."
link here (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=169061&page=3)
I was not talking about Silent Hunter 6, I was thinking about some comments on those Developers and their potential.
The question is if Ubi drops the ball... who takes up the baton?
here are some possiblities...
Danger from the Deep
DFTD is a great piece of work so far but still along way from being SH could our talented modders get on board to offer help to accellerate the development of this fledgling subsim?
Our next/best U-boat sim will probably be from these guys. Looking good so far.
Is it all doom and gloom for the future of subsims? Naww... the best is yet to come! :sunny:
Placoderm
05-08-10, 12:01 PM
Our next/best U-boat sim will probably be from these guys. Looking good so far.
Is it all doom and gloom for the future of subsims? Naww... the best is yet to come! :sunny:
:agree:
Ian is right. The future holds great promise, and frankly the Silent Hunter series has more than run it's course. There WILL be future subsims, and history has shown that in years to come we will look back on SH5 and even SH3 and 4 as simplistic and boring with outdated grahpics and game design. Nature DOES abhor a vacuum, and Ubisoft is leaving a huge gaping one for someone who truly cares to fill with thier own vision of the perfect submarine simulation.
Lots of people forget the crash of the consoles that took place in the mid-90's. The current console developers (some of them the same developers who created the last crash) are currently heading down the same path as they did then. The market is currently becomming saturated with PS3's and Wii's and Xbox's...and unless they can pull another rabbit out of their proverbial hat and create something to attract a fresh consumer base, they will again crash and crash hard. Companies like Ubisoft that put all their eggs in the console basket will suffer the most.
Blueray saved playstation from disaster. Tactile motion controls gave Nintendo a new lease on life by setting the Wii apart from the competition. Xbox pretended to be a PC, attracting more "sophisticated" buyers. Unless any of the above companies can come up with some new gimmick to attract buyers to the next generation of consoles, whatever they may be, their demise is essentially assured. This is not wishful thinking on my behalf, but rather careful market observation over several decades from someone who has been inside the business.
It may take many years to come up with a new star in the world of submarine simulations for the PC...but I guarantee you, it WILL happen someday...and when it does, Silent Huner 5 and Ubisoft will likely just be a bitter and tragic memory of what could have been.
:salute:
and history has shown that in years to come we will look back
Could you elaborate on this ?
Placoderm
05-08-10, 01:20 PM
Could you elaborate on this ?
Unfortunately my time is limited at the moment, as I need to help someone move...but I will do my best with what time I have.
I do not know how long you have been using the PC, and unfortunately many posters on here appear to be quite young so do not have much of a historical perspective, so forgive me if I mention some things that are obvious or seem redundant to you.
When I refer to what history has shown, I refer to many past PC games that at one time or another people thought were the "last and the best ever there would be".
There are numerous examples of companies that folded or stopped producing games that fans loved. Those fans screamed over and over that the world was coming to an end, and that there would never be another game to compete.
I have listed some in previous threads, but a short list of examples would include:
M1 Tank Platoon II (done much better with Steel Beasts Pro)
Gunship (DCS Black Shark and even EECH)
Silent Service II (Aces of the Deep)
Aces of the Deep (Silent Hunter)
Grand Prix Legends (R-factor and GTR and especially GTL)
Grand Prix Legends (also the source code was released and extensively modded when Sierra dropped it)
Close Combat (Combat Mission series and perhaps even Company of Heroes)
Combat mission series (Theatre of War series)
Panzer Elite (T34 vs Tiger) or (Steel Fury)
Soda Off-Road Racing (Dirt)
Ultima Underground (Oblivion)
Red Baron 3d (Rise of Flight)
Microsoft CFS3 and Janes Fighters (some upstart called Oleg Mattox made an off-the-wall game called IL-2 Sturmnovik)
Great Naval Battles series (Jutland and Distant Guns are legitimate successors)
Hardware?
AdLib sound cards (at the time, Sound Blaster was a disfunctional upstart with poor game support)
Phase Write ReWritable Optical disks (Iomega Zip drives)
Iomega Zip disks (CD Rom disks)
Syquest Drives (DVD Roms)
Tandy or IBM Computers (replaced by dozens of "upstarts", like Compac, Gateway, Dell,...or hundreds of independent builders)
Voodoo Graphics Cards by 3DFX (replaced by S3 and GeForce, amongst others)
For now, that is all I can write as I am late...but I will try to follow up later. The point is that although none of the above legacy games were "recreated" by the competing succesor, they were all improved in some way or the genre was expanded at the very least. In all cases there were improvements made somewhere. In all cases when the predecessor went under or was phased out, there was screaming from the loyal customers that the world was coming to an end and all was lost.
I doubt nowadays that anyone would bother with a zip drive or a PhaseWrite Disk, and I highly doubt anyone is using their 3DFX cards much anymore. Would you prefer Gato over Silent Service 1? Aces of the Deep over Silent Hunter III?
Some glaring holes are still left open, that I concede. I have wished for years for a successor to Task Force 1942...but to no avail. I wish I could find something to equal Falcon 4 for its truly dynamic campaign (although EECH was a good try). Overall, though, the progression has been a good one...and the naysayers have been proven wrong the vast majority of the time...thus I said "...and history has shown that in years to come we will look back..." at what we "thought" was the pinnacle....only to find out we had barely even begun to see what was possible.
I hope that helps clear up what I meant!
:salute:
Bilge_Rat
05-08-10, 01:23 PM
It's not going to happen. We will not see a new subsim for a long time, if ever.
Sub Sims were very popular in the early days of computer gaming because it could all be done in 2d. One by one every makers of subsims have dropped out or moved on to other genres. Ubisoft was the last one.
Any new player who comes in now will go into land combat or flight sims where there is more of a market. No one is interested in producing new subsims.
Bilge_Rat
05-08-10, 01:26 PM
Our next/best U-boat sim will probably be from these guys. Looking good so far.
Is it all doom and gloom for the future of subsims? Naww... the best is yet to come! :sunny:
that makes no sense to me. DFTD is barely off the drawing board. It makes more sense for modders to put their energy into SH5 which is already 95% there.
theluckyone17
05-08-10, 02:11 PM
that makes no sense to me. DFTD is barely off the drawing board. It makes more sense for modders to put their energy into SH5 which is already 95% there.
Not really. DFTD allows access to the code... SH3/4/5 does not. If something in the SH series cannot fixed by modding, it cannot be fixed. DFTD's code can be changed, however... it's not limited, in that respect.
DFTD isn't quite "off the drawing board"... a lot of the basics are already built. That being said, there's a lot more that has to be built before it's comparable to the SH series.
I'd be much happier to see DFTD built than SH5 modded... having access to the code allows a lot more flexibility and quality in the end product.
I hope that helps clear up what I meant!
:salute:
Yep, thanks.
I see what you mean, the only thing I would add is that we still have no idea how much time it will take before we see another one and that we have no idea if it will be better or worse. (I've already played worse sims than the Silent Hunter series).
Placoderm
05-08-10, 08:12 PM
Yep, thanks.
I see what you mean, the only thing I would add is that we still have no idea how much time it will take before we see another one and that we have no idea if it will be better or worse. (I've already played worse sims than the Silent Hunter series).
Oh, I definately agree that it may take some time and quite a few lemons before we see another top-notch product. For every one of those games I listed, there were several dung piles that never made the grade. But even the dung piles unconciously helped to pave the way for the winners, by establishing what NOT to do and what ideas would guarantee a flop. It could very well be 5-10 years or more before we see something like what we want...but it will happen sooner or later. That is bad news for the "I want it now" generation, but that is their problem and theirs alone. In the meantime, I am sure that modders will continue to work on SHV and SHIV and even SHIII for many years to come. Some of those modders may eventually be the ones who create the next big sub-sim independently.
Time will only tell...
gimpy117
05-08-10, 11:28 PM
It really unfortunate that it came to this. I think UBI corporate really Put the SH5 development team in this position. I don't blame them...I only wish UBI would have given them more time to make the game what we all know it can be.
But I do agree that The Silent Hunter series, No matter how great it was/is has run its course in it's current version. Frankly, If you look in the game files, Even the code is old and stale! Bugs that were in Sh3 in 2005 are still here in 2010. I think if UBI wants to make another Sub Sim it needs to do a ground up game with a truly astounding Engine that can take into account many of the variables that happen out there in the true ocean while on a submarine
Furthermore...Although a game like DFTD looks promising...as a gamer in the ever so important 18-25 demographic it just looks old. I know its early in the development..but its just not quite there yet to be anything but a forerunner to a professional game. (no offense to the dev team I understand that you have nowhere near the resources of a professional company)
@ Placoderm, how I would love to have seen a late release of "European Air War", but all cries to TK have failed, that game was as big as SHIII, my folder of paperwork for that is 3" thick! with quite a few CD's of mods.:yep:
Placoderm
05-09-10, 04:54 AM
@ Placoderm, how I would love to have seen a late release of "European Air War", but all cries to RK have failed, that game was as big as SHIII, my folder of paperwork for that is 3" thick! with quite a few CD's of mods.:yep:
Ooooo me too! I still have my original boxed copies (one still has the plastic wrap) and occasionally get nostalgic when I dig one out...thinking of how much fun I had with it back when it was king. Truly good games never die, at least not in our hearts and minds.
I feel the same nostalgia for Task Force 1942, wishing I could once again experience sending my cruisers and their screen through "The Slot" in pitch black darkness, straining to see the enemy before he saw me. I lament no longer being able to send up a volley of starshells to illuminate the source of the flashes off my port bow, and to feel the terror while manning the gun director as my main battery of guns ever so slowly reloaded between each rapport of their thunderous bellowing.
Of course the reality is that I have now gotten used to virtual cockpits, TrackIR panning, and 1920x1080 resolutions...so although the "meat" is there in many of those classics like EAW, the game is still dated by many of todays standards, and I am probably best to just rely on my memories rather than re-install. Hopefully some day, someone will pick the ball again with some of the old classics. Storm of War: BOB has a lot of promise, and Oleg Mattox has definately earned my trust...so there is always hope that another master will step up to the plate and move this genre (naval and sub-sims) forward once again.
Paajtor
05-09-10, 05:08 AM
I know of 2 other developers, that have a history of WW2-dedication: Tripwire Interactive (Red Orchestra), and 1C-Games (Il2 Sturmovik).
Especially the 2nd one - allthough currently knee-deep into developement of their next WW2 combat-flightsim Storm Of War: Battle Of Brittain - has both the knowledge and the drive to create realistic simulations.
Sonarman
05-09-10, 06:35 AM
Especially the 2nd one - allthough currently knee-deep into developement of their next WW2 combat-flightsim Storm Of War: Battle Of Brittain - has both the knowledge and the drive to create realistic simulations.
Yes, and although he press have not picked up on it yet in any great depth Oleg has stated that playable naval units will be able to be modded into the sim (Storm of War) for use in multiplayer at least. See post 1 for a link to a very recent article confirming this!!!
Frumpkis
05-09-10, 10:36 AM
It was something like 8 years between the last major combat helicopter sim on the PC (Enemy Engaged) and the most recent one (DCS Black Shark). That's always been one of my favorite types of games, going all the way back to the original Gunship. At one point during the gap, I was sure the genre had just died out completely, and we'd never see another good combat helo sim. So the lesson is that someone does always come along eventually when there is a real gap in the market, but it can take a while. Here's hoping it isn't 8 years between WWII sub sims.
One new development that could keep the genre alive (and PC games in general), is if games start moving to full 3D viewing, following the trend with recent movies. We don't really need 3D viewing for something like a sub sim, or even a flight sim. All the combat action is at a distance where there is no real 3D effect in human vision (although the 3D effect can be enhanced artificially). But it will help sell other types of games like shooters and RPG's, and a new generation of combat sims on the PC could ride on those coattails. It could be an incentive for a new publisher to take on an "old" genre like WWII sub sims, in a new enhanced 3D wrapper. PC's will have an advantage over consoles in running full 3D viewing at high res and high framerates due to sheer CPU and graphics horsepower, so that's another thing that could help keep PC gaming alive.
The General
05-09-10, 11:40 AM
Great Thread topic :up:
I think Akella is a great candidate. They just built an elaborate 3D engine for PT Boats. I don't think PT Boats sold that well, the reviews weren't good because it 'fell between two stools' by being neither simulator or Arcade game. It could easily be converted into a Subsim and they could recoup on their investment. I think I'll write to them and encourage them to think about this.
Edit: In fact, I did just that:
Dear Sirs,
I would like to draw your attention to a potential gap in the market opening up in the near future. Ubisoft are closing-up shop on their Silent Hunter series, currently in it's fifth incarnation. Ubisoft made the mistake of not making this title exclusively 'Downloadable Content' and as a result burned up potential profits by producing expensive Hard-copies.
There is a dedicated following of the Silent Hunter series, the www.subsim.com (http://www.subsim.com/) community alone, for example, has over 17 000 members. Akella is in a unique position of having a recent Naval simulator with cutting-edge graphics, PT Boats: Knights of the Sea, that could easily be converted into a dedicated submarine simulation. The production of PT Boats must represent a significant investment for your Company? With the ground-work already in place, would this not be a great opportunity to convert this title into a dedicated Submarine simulator, retitle it and launch the first in the series of a new franchise? Added to the fact that Downloadable Content is becoming the norm, very little additional monies are needed for distribution. It's a win, win scenario for Akella.
Gentleman, I thank you for your time.
Yours sincerely,
Cameron Williams
The next phase of my plan is to get Akella to hire Dan and the rest of the Dev team at Ubisoft Romania :D
Sonarman
05-09-10, 01:23 PM
Nice one:up: Not so sure that producing hard copies was a mistake but everything else has the ring of truth about it.
As you say Akella have been developing maritime based games for quite some time now and the PT-Boats game whilst flawed in terms of game design & the theatres of war in relation to a Western audience was relatively bug free on release. Add to this fact that they now seem to have PR people who can judging by the very interesting dev blogs at Battlefront communicate well in English and they could indeed be a good candidate. Akella should take a long hard look at SHIII in particular and target core simulation players.
Saying that I'll have more faith in Akella if they deliver the mission creator/editor that they promised for PT-Boats and when Battlefront.com says that they will release an English language version of the (out since January in Russia) expansion for PT-Boats. So far my post on the subject at Battlefront has gone unanswered by their normally very talkative CEO Moon (Martin Von Balcom).
I haven't quite given up on Ubisoft yet and do believe there is a good game buried beneath the casual exterior & multiple bugs that is SH5. Add to the fact that Dan & co had the sense & foresight to include much more indepth modding/scripting tools which when used by guys like theDarkWraith are rapidly transforming the game into a much more playable and enjoyable experience and SH5 may yet turn from Ugly duckling into swan.
danasan
05-09-10, 01:30 PM
Hi General,
I am looking forward to the next couple of steps which could follow...
But: I guess there are much more than 17,000 members here on subsim.
And: There is a similar idea of getting in touch with a publisher and EVEN try to PAY the development of a sub simulator, if needed, on the German forum. The idea is called project U96 and was initiated by Friedl9te.
Maybe there is a chance to merge the ideas to get the best result.
danasan
The General
05-09-10, 01:56 PM
There is a similar idea of getting in touch with a publisher and EVEN try to PAY the development of a sub simulator, if needed, on the German forum. The idea is called project U96 and was initiated by Friedl9te.
Maybe there is a chance to merge the ideas to get the best result.
danasanThanks Danasan, I will take a look :up: Do you have a link to this Project U96?
danasan
05-10-10, 12:40 AM
There you are... (http://forums-de.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/5231070365/m/9081030538)
Translation will follow ASAP. I am trying to get in touch again with Friedl9te...
greetings
danasan
Faamecanic
05-10-10, 06:28 AM
GREAT post by the OP! :yeah:
Doom and gloom....woe is us.... UBI is the only one willing to do a subsim....
Sorry... there are too many small dev houses out there willing to develop for a "niche" market. And I will debate that subsims are a "niche" market. Only UBI says that based off of low sales numbers, and they fail to take into account the bad blood they have made by releasing half finished sims since SH3.
I would think a Civil War Ironside ship sim is more of a niche market than a subsim.
Faamecanic
05-10-10, 06:32 AM
It really unfortunate that it came to this. I think UBI corporate really Put the SH5 development team in this position. I don't blame them...I only wish UBI would have given them more time to make the game what we all know it can be.
I know I will get flamed for this....
Im sorry...I cant give the Devs a pass anymore. I did with SH3 because it was so innovative, and SH4 because they added a lot of new features. But when there are bugs in this sim that are carry-overs from SH3, most of which were modded out by our modders that didnt even have access to the engine code, I cant give the Devs a pass.
I dont totally blame them, as Im sure UBI put the pressure on them to include all the "new-improved" stuff like the useless UI (what was wrong with the old one) and such, when that coding time could have been used to fix bugs from the previous series.
Sonarman
05-10-10, 06:56 AM
Added another idea to the OP which just popped into my tiny mind ..."Yet another alternative would be to approach Ubi to buy out the source code for SH 3, 4 or 5 from to work on ourselves and release on a non-commercial basis"
karamazovnew
05-10-10, 07:46 AM
Added another idea to the OP which just popped into my tiny mind ..."Yet another alternative would be to approach Ubi to buy out the source code for SH 3, 4 or 5 from to work on ourselves and release on a non-commercial basis"
The SH3 graphic engine is a bit old. But SH4 would be an awesome choice. I almost like it better than SH5 graphic wise. Let me also remind you all that a non-professional PC naval sim done properly would have a HUGE market. Most naval schools have simulators but they're big (and quite old). A good tool to practice navigation, Colreg, radar and astronomy would attract anyone that has an interest in owning or piloting a boat. At the moment the only sim that is remotely near that is Virtual Sailor. Huge open market :yeah:. Then again an online DRM would kill the potential.
danasan
05-10-10, 08:12 AM
Added another idea to the OP which just popped into my tiny mind ..."Yet another alternative would be to approach Ubi to buy out the source code for SH 3, 4 or 5 from to work on ourselves and release on a non-commercial basis"
Yeah, buying the source would be great, it is more or less finished.
But I could imagine, that we would have to pay for the loss they made with SH5 as well...
So it won't be a snap.
danasan
Sonarman
05-10-10, 08:18 AM
"SH4 would be an awesome choice"
You are probably right there SH4 would be a good choice particularly as it has a dynamic loading system for objects resulting in much shorter startup/load times than SH3
"Let me also remind you all that a non-professional PC naval sim done properly would have a HUGE market. Most naval schools have simulators but they're big (and quite old). A good tool to practice navigation, Colreg, radar and astronomy would attract anyone that has an interest in owning or piloting a boat. At the moment the only sim that is remotely near that is Virtual Sailor."
There are a few more products in that line than you would imagine some of the better known ones are...Seamulator (http://www.skippersoftware.com/) which is aimed at casual boaters, Ship simulator Pro /Nautis which is aimed at students/ colleges and Transas (http://www.transas.com/) which the full on industry hugely expensive training stuff. Ilan Papini's virtual sailor has also been expanded in a professional format though his sub-company "Sim squared (http://www.simsquared.com/)".
The other problem would be that the very complex the hydrodynamics/physics required for such as training sim are simply not present in the SH engine (ask Deamon!) and would have to be created from scratch. But for casual boaters purely for nav/radar training etc it might possibly indeed be a winner.
Bilge_Rat
05-10-10, 08:21 AM
GREAT post by the OP! :yeah:
Doom and gloom....woe is us.... UBI is the only one willing to do a subsim....
Sorry... there are too many small dev houses out there willing to develop for a "niche" market. And I will debate that subsims are a "niche" market. Only UBI says that based off of low sales numbers, and they fail to take into account the bad blood they have made by releasing half finished sims since SH3.
I would think a Civil War Ironside ship sim is more of a niche market than a subsim.
subsims are dead. Name me one company which has shown even a glimmer of interest in developping a subsim.
you just have to look at the market for books, entertainment, games to see where the potential sim market is:
1. ww2 land;
2. modern land;
3. ww2 flight;
4. modern flight;
I had a discussion with Steve Grammont from Battlefront sometimes back. As far as he is concerned, only #1 and #2 have a market potential which is what their new Combat Mission line is concentrating on.
Eagle one studios and Akella are working on surface naval sims which to me is a more promising and undevelopped market.
Sonarman
05-10-10, 08:36 AM
"Subsims are dead. Name me one company which has shown even a glimmer of interest in developping a subsim".
Well although its not a true sim there is Naval Assault about to debut on the xBox and Mark Hessberg's Wolves of the Atlantic on the iPod/iPad thing. But in the main I'd agree with your assesment and perhaps it's up to us to take the bull by the horns. Don't count Ubi out just yet though in difficult times companies will always run to past performers (SH2 was a dog, yet we got the brilliant SH3).
"I had a discussion with Steve Grammont from Battlefront sometimes back. As far as he is concerned, only #1 and #2 have a market potential which is what their new Combat Mission line is concentrating on."
That is strange since Battlefront actually went on to release PT-Boats
I'd be surprised if Akella do anything else in the maritime line, I think the six year development time resulting in the commercial & critical flop that is PT-Boats will have put an end to anything from them.
It would be great if we could persuade Norm & Jim at Storm Eagle to do something but honestly I don't think they are interested in doing a first person simulator, they view SH purely as an arcade title. What I'm hoping to get from them is an updated TF1942 although I'd bet it will be without any first person controls bridge views etc. which on a game of that scale is acceptable. But they need to do some serious work on their user interface which, to my mind at least, sucks.
Bilge_Rat
05-10-10, 08:57 AM
just on that last point, BFC wears two hats, one as developper of the CM line which they produce in-house and one as publisher where they help other companies sell their games through BFC's online delivery system. Akella made PT-Boats, BFC is just distributing it. They did the same thing with DW when it was first released.
Sonarman
05-10-10, 08:58 AM
The main problems I would for-see in licensing SH as open source from Ubi are...
1. They may wish to keep their options open for the future
2. The source code may have trade secrets they do not want exposed
3. Silent Hunter has always sold well as a series in budget Ubi licenses the title out to companies such as sold Out, Steam, D2D etc how are they going to feel if we suddenly come up with a better project based on the SH4 engine that is freely available?
I think these three factors probably make getting something from Ubi unlikely. Of course they are still sitting on the Harpoon 4 source.... but I think AGSI would not let that happen... plus it's based on 5+ year outdated tech now and it was created by Software Sorcery & Ultimation which is not a particularly good pedigree to have.
EDIT... Another thought ....If you wanted to pursue an SH the one to go after would probably be five itself. It's new tech, budget release agreements have probably not yet been signed. You could say to Ubi look this game has bombed critically and commercially no-one is going to want it at budget. We think we can turn it around for the community we'll give you $x for it as open source on the understanding that anything we produce will be non profit and anyone who works on it will sign an ironclad confidentiality agreement with you to prevent your "code wizardry" being exposed to your competitors.
Sonarman
05-10-10, 09:01 AM
They did the same thing with DW when it was first released.
Yes and look what happend there! Much as I respect the guys at Battlefront there is something still to be said for the muscle/ distribution power of a major publisher. EA made a success of 688 & Sub Command. Both DW & PT-boats have well & truly flopped.
Faamecanic
05-10-10, 11:03 AM
subsims are dead. Name me one company which has shown even a glimmer of interest in developping a subsim.
you just have to look at the market for books, entertainment, games to see where the potential sim market is:
1. ww2 land;
2. modern land;
3. ww2 flight;
4. modern flight;
I had a discussion with Steve Grammont from Battlefront sometimes back. As far as he is concerned, only #1 and #2 have a market potential which is what their new Combat Mission line is concentrating on.
Eagle one studios and Akella are working on surface naval sims which to me is a more promising and undevelopped market.
But I would say that who can tell if there is interest in developing a subsim out there or not.
Heck who would have thought there would be interest in developing a CITY BUS driving simulator.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FP1yddiEzpQ
Maybe with the UBI gorilla out there right now developing a subsim there is no interest. But when the 500lb gorilla leaves the room whos to say what may come out of it. Not saying you are wrong here Bilge .... there may be no interest.... but again if there is even a hint of profit to be made, and a developer with a love for subsims (Im sure they are out there), the possiblity exsists IMHO.
609_Avatar
05-10-10, 02:21 PM
...Not saying you are wrong here Bilge .... there may be no interest.... but again if there is even a hint of profit to be made, and a developer with a love for subsims (Im sure they are out there), the possiblity exsists IMHO.
I have to agree and also hope you're right!
The Enigma
05-10-10, 03:13 PM
It would be great if "Thriller New Media" with co-founder MicroProse (JW "Wild Bill" Stealey)
would jump back on the train err.... subsims again.
I loved to play those MicroProse games. :rock:
Sonarman
05-10-10, 03:23 PM
It would be great if "Thriller New Media" with co-founder MicroProse (JW "Wild Bill" Stealey)
would jump back on the train err.... subsims again.
I loved to play those MicroProse games. :rock:
That's certainly a possibility now that the "M1 Tank Platoon" resurrection is now well underway. I don't know if "Wild Bill / Thriller Publishing" has the rights to the name "Silent Service" or not. Personally at the moment I;d rather see a new TF1942 however with today's graphics and the addition of anti aircraft & anti sub that game would be great.
I remember Sid Meier mentioning in an interview some time ago that a "Red Storm Rising" sequel was unlikely now due to the massive fortune they would have to pay to acquire the rights to that name from the (much more successful/rich than in 84) Mr Clancy again. Although I'm sure that if Firaxis ever did a sequel and called it "Sid Meier's Modern Submarine Warfare" just as many people would buy it.
The Enigma
05-10-10, 03:30 PM
I know I would.
Only those names (MicroProse, Sid Meier) are worth a fortune.
Just pick a name for the game and ad the mentioned names to the title.
That will do, no huge add campaigns are needed
Sonarman
05-10-10, 03:34 PM
I just hope that this time things go well for old "Wild Bill". Despite having the same designers the previous reboot of M1 Tank Platoon & its stablemate iPanzer'44 were not very good at all. But... that was a long time ago and graphic /terrain engines have evolved a long way from those days. Those games will probably be the building blocks for the new titles and hopefully the errors in their design/programming will not be forgotten as they roll ahead with the new M4 & M1 Tank Platoon games.
krashkart
05-10-10, 04:04 PM
The question is if Ubi drops the ball... who takes up the baton?
I doubt anybody will. We're cursed with cookie cutter arcade garbage for all eternity. Niche genres don't net the big money that the time-tested twitch-n-play eye pleasers generate. Practically all media is the same - take a look at blockbuster films and television. It's all the same, has been for years. :zzz:
Faamecanic
05-11-10, 06:33 AM
I know I would.
Only those names (MicroProse, Sid Meier) are worth a fortune.
Just pick a name for the game and ad the mentioned names to the title.
That will do, no huge add campaigns are needed
Those names were from a time when programmers and publishers did what they did for modest profit and LOVE for putting something in computer code that people could only dream of until then. PIRATES anyone!!!! How awesome was it to play that game!
oscar19681
05-11-10, 07:24 AM
I fear the silent hunter series will do the way of b-17 flying fortress and b-17 II the mighty eight. Been always looking for a good sequel to these games but there are none. Sure there was some addons for CFS3 but it just didnt cut it and was never a trully b-17 sim like the above were. I think this will be the same for the silent hunter series.
Well, better end now and enter in the legends than developed further under ubi logo. Enough is enough.
But who knows ... maybe some day, the old dudes form Ubi ceo will be replaced by some young and capable guys who actually have a brain and a big passion for the games. I would love to see a ww2 sub sim developed by Bioware or Blizzard, but sim games are not and will never be in their interest list.
Sonarman
05-13-10, 05:45 AM
Just read a posting over at Pirates Ahoy (http://forum.piratesahoy.net//we-have-the-storm-engine-t15184.html) that the community there has negotiated for and got a release of the source code for the STORM engine/City of Abandoned ships from Akella as they are apparently leaving the development business. Perhaps they would be open to negotiate on the Pt-boats source too?
Faamecanic
05-13-10, 06:28 AM
I fear the silent hunter series will do the way of b-17 flying fortress and b-17 II the mighty eight. Been always looking for a good sequel to these games but there are none. Sure there was some addons for CFS3 but it just didnt cut it and was never a trully b-17 sim like the above were. I think this will be the same for the silent hunter series.
AMEN brother....loved the B17 by Microprose.... and I have to agree. Sub sims (especially the SH franchise) will die just like B17.
What is sad is if UBI just pulled thier heads out of thier collective buttocks they would have had a blockbuster on thier hands.
Sonarman
05-13-10, 06:49 AM
What is sad is if UBI just pulled thier heads out of thier collective buttocks they would have had a blockbuster on thier hands.
Yes, I tend to agree instead of downscaling they should have looked at expansion of the franchise and that does not mean arcade games on mobile phones it means a virtual Pacific or Atlantic battlefield with controllable surface units and eventually aircraft at a SH style level of simulation. Thankfully those are the lines along which Oleg Maddox is currently thinking so who knows...
Sonarman
05-14-10, 01:59 PM
Updated Original posting text + added indie competition idea.
Spartan
05-14-10, 06:40 PM
Excellent OP. I hope to see another company take up the cause. I would also really like to see SubSim step up if possible (looking at you Neal). :yep:
SH reminds me very much of Close Combat (my most cherished infantry sim) done by Atomic and M$ and look what happened there. It can be the same with SH I think. Moreover if getting the name proper is not an option then creating a new one would always an avenue that could be taken.
KarlSteiner
05-23-10, 10:00 AM
Silent Hunter 1-4: 1.5 million units ....SH5 sales probably not good!
HAWX 1 : 1 million units
Yes, it's easy to see the way the wind is blowing. Even Neal is depressed...
The question is if Ubi drops the ball... who takes up the baton?
here are some possiblities...
Ilan Papini:
Developer of the Virtual Sailor series which has evolved for many years, Ilan has now branched into professional simulators (http://www.simsquared.com/) for the maritime & naval industry. As Ilan probably has little experience in game AI we could approach him to use the VS engine for a purely multiplayer game with surface vessels & subs, the focus would then be primarily on adding the technology, sonar, aa guns, guns directors, hedgehogs etc rather than the complex AI involved in formations/hunting etc.
VStep:
Developer of the Ship Sim series & professional maritime software. A much improved ocean system is promised for the new Ship Sim Extremes game coming soon could VSTep be enticed to use their maritime engine for a Subsim?
VS is by far not so godd and exact in the game interface and the boat maeuvering as they told.
There are many open bugs to solve.
But the Programmer Pappini has too much projets running, so I found he has lost the overview.
His Vehicle_sim is similiar the tower of Babylon all is designed but nothing works like specially sims (as the flightsim, DTM and Shipsim).
Wthin many resorts there is the precision lost.
Nordmann
05-23-10, 11:37 AM
What is sad is if UBI just pulled thier heads out of thier collective buttocks they would have had a blockbuster on thier hands.
A blockbuster for sub fans, but I suspect you would have a hard time selling it to mainstream gamers.
Appeal to simmers, you lose the casual gamers, appeal to casual gamers, you lose the simmers, attempt to meet the middle ground, and you risk losing both. A real pickle for any company, therefore it's no surprise that sims tend to get the cold shoulder these days.
Dear Sirs,
I would like to draw your attention to a potential gap in the market opening up in the near future. Ubisoft are closing-up shop on their Silent Hunter series, currently in it's fifth incarnation. Ubisoft made the mistake of not making this title exclusively 'Downloadable Content' and as a result burned up potential profits by producing expensive Hard-copies.
There is a dedicated following of the Silent Hunter series, the www.subsim.com (http://www.subsim.com/) community alone, for example, has over 17 000 members. Akella is in a unique position of having a recent Naval simulator with cutting-edge graphics, PT Boats: Knights of the Sea, that could easily be converted into a dedicated submarine simulation. The production of PT Boats must represent a significant investment for your Company? With the ground-work already in place, would this not be a great opportunity to convert this title into a dedicated Submarine simulator, retitle it and launch the first in the series of a new franchise? Added to the fact that Downloadable Content is becoming the norm, very little additional monies are needed for distribution. It's a win, win scenario for Akella.
Gentleman, I thank you for your time.
Yours sincerely,
Cameron Williams
The next phase of my plan is to get Akella to hire Dan and the rest of the Dev team at Ubisoft Romania :D
I appreciate the fact that you wrote up a well thought out letter. But anything that supports or condones the bane of PC gaming DLC (Downloadable Content) will never get my vote.
WTF is so hard about releasing a complete game now? Ok for like Fallout 3 or WoW or stuff like that yes I can understand DLCs. But for a subsim? It will be done just like SH5. Look we give you half the game (39-43) as DLCs we will give you the other half. I wouldn't be surprised if they split the DLCs to make the next half take two DLCs (ie DLC#1 (43-44) 20$. DLC#2(44-45)20$)
DLCs are nothing but a rip off and should be abandoned as a marketing tool.
Didn't mean to rant off on you letter General. Other than that it was well thought out.:up:
WTF is so hard about releasing a complete game now?.
Depends on the game, but one reason is that:
Gamers expections are MUCH higher now, (especially sub simmers who demand to be able to sail their accurate-down-to-the-last-rivet-sub though a perfect world simulator.) :D
but sadly on the development side - compared to 10-15 years ago....
1) Games are much more complex and costly to produce.
2) SubSims are one of the least popular gaming genres
Niche product = low budget
low budget = unfinished or over budget.
unfinished or over budget = financial loss
financial loss = a dead franchise / dead business.
So above all else. MONEY! :haha:
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