How broken is broken? seriously.

[Redlance88]

I am in no way trying to start any sort of a flame war or in any way trying to troll for one side or the other, but really want to hear peoples thoughts. I have read lots and lots about sh5 being practically unplayable out of the box but to me it seems like the real problem is that the instruction manual is more or less useless. the only three things that I think are truly broken in the game are the 1)moral system 2) magnetic trigger for torps and 3) the statiometer with the moral system being the worst offender in that it creates a situation where crew don't obey orders at all. the rest of the issues I have seen , are problems with save games not saving the state of events when you left the game , and that often creates situations that can get bad really fast. Now the question becomes what else is so broken that the game is "unplayable" I for one have been playing the heck out of the game and having a grand old time, now yes, I have a few mods installed that deal with some of the issues, but most are either eye candy type of things, or realism enhancements. the reason I ask is to see what bothers folks most and to discuss what sort of work around's are out there to deal with them. My Idea is to make it more fun for some of the folks who are having a hard time.

[kylania]

The main problems for me were what you mentioned, and key commands like rudder, compass, depth to keel and other previous (and working!) keys not being bound.

These are all ridiculously easy to fix things that should have been hotfixed DAY ONE, but ubisoft have waited 2 months to even begin to fix them.

That said, the game is ENTIRELY playable with mods at this point and will just get better once the patch fixes the bugs and allows more expansion to the game.

[John Channing]

My only real issues are the stadimeter (not an easy fix as SH4 proved) and the fact that damage to AI is not carried over in savegames.

Other than that, I'm good.

The morale mod is great.

JCC

[speedbird]

Regarding your comment about the manual, yes is sad... then again how many games come with a proper manual nowadays...?

I liked the ones you can read on your way to work but I am afraid they are long gone :wah:

[mookiemookie]

The lack of merchant ship variety is really the only reason I'm not playing the game at the moment. All of the other major issues have been solved with mods.

[Webster]

let me see if i can cover the generalities:

the unplayability of the game is in reference to those with intermittent or limited internet access or connectivity, that is what makes the game unplayable for many.

there is a group who hate the DRM with a passion and because of this they dont want to hear or let good things be said about the game.

there is also a group who ignore the bad things about the game and feel the need to over hype and overlook the legitimate flaws of the game.


the game overall is pretty good but out of the box (i will be kind here) it leaves a lot to be desired.

the mods do wonders to improve the game and the biggest gripe to date is the patch thats so slow to be released.


unfortunately im pretty sure this thread will follow the path of all the many others like it that came before it and it will not produce constructive conversation but instead will be like blood in the water attracting all the drama sharks to come to fight it out in the never ending battle of the "i like sh5" vs "i dont like sh5" crowds.

for good constructive discussions about the game i think you will find that the sh5 mods section is where most of the actual game is discussed without all the opinions and feelings surrounding the sh5 debate pro or con.

[Nisgeis]

I don't think I've seen anything mentioned about the stadimeter in a long time. What's the problem with it? I remember something about a locking problem?

[robbo180265]

The lack of merchant ship variety is really the only reason I'm not playing the game at the moment. All of the other major issues have been solved with mods.

I have to agree - more than anything else this is my major gripe and the main reason that I'm no longer playing.

[Bilge_Rat]

Hmmm, despite all the righteous believers out there posting the truth so that the ignorant do not accidentally buy the game, I don't think I've seen anything mentioned about the stadimeter in a long time. What's the problem with it? I remember something about a locking problem?

It does not work, apparently it is reading the wrong data and therefore gives the wrong range reading.

I understand DarkWraith's UI mod solves that issue, but I have not checked.

I personally use Arclight's periscope mod and determine range with a simple trig formula, quite easy when you get the hang of it.

[Wilcke]

Aside from its known issues; I installed SH5 on release date and played it for about 4 weeks without any mods just box stock, its worked rather well and glitch free. I was rather amazed.

[pythos]

Merchant ship variety.

I don't understand this gripe.

I have seen convoys with all manner of vessels.

I have seen, c3 freighters, Hogs Islands, Chimarian (sp) tankers, medium tankers, Ranger class tankers, troop transports, and Liberty class. The only ones missing are the small freighters and coastal ships, but these usually were not in convoys.

Just what kinds of vessels do you think were in the convoys during the war?

That being a reason to not enjoy the game seems rather silly.

The problems I have are map contacts with no time stamps, which makes figuring a proper intercept course really fun. The aircraft just flying by is also nerve wracking. The destroyers that for no reason start trailing but not closing to attack or call in others, just being there due to a really bad glitch, make things annoying. The Stadimeter of all Sh versions has been clumsy to the extreme, and I only tried to use it once. The skipper or commander set the line, and the XO or 1st WO read off the reading and put it in the TDC, something that has not been accurately implemented in the game.

The damage models are not the best, and the boat's buoyancy is lousy.

The lack of the correct pitch change at power setting changes is also a bad bug, that no one seems to care about.

None of the above are game killers, they just should not be in a polished and published game.

[Redlance88]

in regards to rudder, I came from the sh3 /sh4 crowd and at first I really really missed a quick click rudder . but as I played a bit , first with the hard to starboard hard to port, quick keys , and eventually with the set my course to where I am looking quick key, I don't miss rudder quick click gui at all. I always navigate into the sub pens, and have never so much as scrached the paint. and to me it feels much more authentic that way. so for me I don't see that as broken as much as poorly documented change. give it a try ya may come to like it as I have. ( but as always I am in no way trying to tell people what they should feel about the changes) in that same vein I am fortunate to have high enough resolution that I can use the compass on the bridge to see what my heading is and again I see that as much more authentic so long story short I would be perfectly happy if there wasn't much of a gui at all if I could click on or menu order the needed commands to navigate and fight. my two bits for now ( slow work day)

[kylania]

Merchant ship variety.

I don't understand this gripe.

I have seen convoys with all manner of vessels.

I have seen, c3 freighters, Hogs Islands, Chimarian (sp) tankers, medium tankers, Ranger class tankers, troop transports, and Liberty class. The only ones missing are the small freighters and coastal ships, but these usually were not in convoys.

That's ALL you see is the problem. The same ships, over and over. Same paint schemes, same armaments, same everything. It's always a few Liberty/Large Steamers, a big tanker or little tanker, maybe a troop transport.

There's HUNDREDS of different ships we could have in game if only we could properly import them, which we can't till this stupid patch comes out. So yeah, there's 7 ships and it's cool that you're happy only ever seeing 7 types of ships (though really it's more like 4 types usually) but that's a bit sparse for more people.

[Frumpkis]

(snip)
The aircraft just flying by is also nerve wracking. The destroyers that for no reason start trailing but not closing to attack or call in others, just being there due to a really bad glitch, make things annoying.

As someone who is still on the fence about buying this game (and happily playing a modded SH4), the status of the AI is one of the main things holding me back. In another thread here, someone said "AI is more stupid than a snail." Is it really that bad, or are people just seeing random odd behavior from the AI?

[mookiemookie]

Merchant ship variety.

I don't understand this gripe.

I don't see why not, when every ship in every convoy is either a a) Hog Island b) "Large Steamer" (Liberty ship) c) Cimarron tanker or d) Ranger tanker.

If you're lucky, you'll see a troop transport or two. But usually its the same four, over and over and over. And since you're out for tonnage, your only real choices are the Cimarrons or the Liberties. So that's really only two ships that you're consistently sinking.

Uboat.net lists 39 classes of merchant ships hit by u-boats. I'm only regularly attacking 2. Something is wrong here.

[smilinicon]

I don't think all the blame can go to the stadimeter. I think it is in the map scale and ranges. This can be confirmed by using map contacts on... the ranges do not match correctly even if the stadimeter is not used, and yes, I have tried the resolution fixes... it did not help. What you measure and what you get are two different things.

I play SH5 a lot and find it enjoyable. I recently re-purchased Sh3 and cannot bear looking at that low resolution dinosaur. I will stick with Sh5 until the whole submarine thing becomes old for me. The whole PC simulation era is coming to an end, so enjoy them while you can.

[John Channing]

As someone who is still on the fence about buying this game (and happily playing a modded SH4), the status of the AI is one of the main things holding me back. In another thread here, someone said "AI is more stupid than a snail." Is it really that bad, or are people just seeing random odd behavior from the AI?

From what I have experienced the AI reacts in a historically realistic fashion. In the early years they can't find you and if they do, they can't hold you. Later on they find you, hold you, but have trouble killing you. By 1943 they are deadly.

The complaints come from people who want DD's with laser range finders and wide aperture array sonars in 1939.

To each their own.

JCC

[HEMISENT]

Just a note to say thank you for this thread. One of the few mature, respectful and well presented discussions I've encountered so far. Sort of like these forums used to be.

Like so many others I've been following the forums and reading everything there is about SH5. The endless bickering and swiping has really gotten old as I'm sure most of you all feel. I've remained on the sidelines content to play SH4 until I feel the majority of the initial bugs, oversights and out and out blunders have been addressed by the devs (and our group of insanely talented modders) in the form of badly needed patches.

I would like to say that I'm waiting for the DRM to be cast aside after UBI comes to their senses (Not holding my breath). I'd like to say it but I won't because I guess the basic DRM idea bothers me but right now not enough to prevent purchasing the game. It was my original intention (before DRM ever was made public) to upgrade my system in time to play with the original release and suffer through the initial blues like we all did with SH3 and 4. All the hoopla and negativism has actually saved me fron spending a serious chunk of change on an updated rig.

Threads like this along with thoughtful reviews such as Neal's are slowly getting to me and I feel that if the next patch works out I'll be breaking down and buying the game along with a new computer.

[Redlance88]

I am happy to have created this thread, and Like where the conversation has taken us so far. I am from the reasonable people can disagree school of thought. and so far that is exactly what I am seeing. Now I would like to throw a few other things out there. for me the Hydrophone in it's current state is bothersome, but not broken. that is , I can make due with it being less functional than it is supposed to be but really wish it would work the way it should for every one that wants to use it. right now it is only "broken" if there are British subs around, then it causes a CTD and that is not okay. I have seen a few threads pop up with how to do this or that , and that helps a lot. So with that situation as an example, what sorts of things have you learned to work around or may have found the new game does differently than you might have expected but still works, or doesn't work? Just today I found the Optics for the Deck gun tho I was fine with using the green arc targeting, it felt like a cheat to me and I am glad that they did in fact give us a Ranged deck gun optics option in game. (Upper left next to the ammo type when ya personally man the gun) what have you found that should be in the tips section of the missing manual for the game ?:yeah:

[THE_MASK]

With SH5 at patch 1 and tons of mods and awesome graphics its fun to play . Been playing since it came out and so far i am up to 7 october 1939 and havnt had a problem yet .

[bigboywooly]

Merchant ship variety.

I don't understand this gripe.

I have seen convoys with all manner of vessels.

I have seen, c3 freighters, Hogs Islands, Chimarian (sp) tankers, medium tankers, Ranger class tankers, troop transports, and Liberty class. The only ones missing are the small freighters and coastal ships, but these usually were not in convoys.

Just what kinds of vessels do you think were in the convoys during the war?

.

Allsorts were in convoys
Check out convoyweb or uboat.nets sunk merchants section
There were regulary sinkings of 1000t+ ships in convoys
Not every convoy was made up of huge tonnage vessels

Swedish ships sunk
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/search.php
And Canadian
http://uboat.net/allies/merchants/search.php

Smallest ship ingame is around 2500t IIRC though may be higher as so long since bothered looking

Aside from that the Liberty ( or its clone the Liberty War Supplies) wasnt in service till late 41
Not sailing around the globe in 1939 under the Kriegsmarine :stare:

So yes the lack of units is most off putting
I once ran into a coastal unescorted convoy in 1940
107,000 tonnes - 13 ships - later I broke off to resupply
Sinkings were 3 class types :o

Coming from SH3 GWX with a massive variation in ship types and tonnages its disappointing to say the least
Still the much fabled patch may cure this
May

Aside from that the game runs smoothly enough and is stable
So is deffo playable in that respect
All the other niggling matters mean I dont want to play it

[Zedi]

As someone who is still on the fence about buying this game (and happily playing a modded SH4), the status of the AI is one of the main things holding me back. In another thread here, someone said "AI is more stupid than a snail." Is it really that bad, or are people just seeing random odd behavior from the AI?

Yes, is true. That's why I can't play it anymore, the AI is completely retarded and even if there are many mods dealing with it and brings a lot of improvement, is still not enough. Is maybe the worst AI I ever saw in the video games history. This, combined with the lack of merchant ship variety makes the game pretty boring.

[BigBANGtheory]

The game is playable right now if you are prepared to accept there are a fair few problems some of which will bug you others won't.

If you can get hold of the game cheap then why not give it a whirl? If nothing else just pilot the boat around and get used to the TDC and positioning tactics in the hope patch2 (possibly future patches too) + mods will address the problems that bug you then you can play seriously.

[doomlordis]

In the stock game you cant be killed under periscope depth, that my friend is a big issue.
The AI for destroyers is broken and the depth charges are practically harmless in stock form.
The planes do not attack 99% of the time , Single core users cant watch particles at more than 3fps.
Save game often cause CTD or simply disappear.
If your crew are injured many simple functions become unavailable.
Improving your torpedomans abilities makes your torpedos run ahead of ships.
There are many, many more.
However i do like it.

[Faamecanic]

To quote PC Gamer

"There are enough AI bugs to scuttle the entire Kriegsmarine"

My example that happens EVERY TIME I LEAVE KEIL.... friendly AI ships that have the desire to go into Flank speed (Opps I mean Ludicris speed) Reverse and either block my way, or ram me into the shore/lock walls.

Immediate immersion killer there.

And the absolutely STUPID misson requirements.... "Sink 100,000 tonnes" in less than a year. O-rly.... from one little U-boat?? Or "Sink a Battleship".... O-rly...and how many U-boats sunk a capital ship single handedly. (I look forward to the mods that make more realistic "goals" but Im not modding until the patch comes out).

[Jack Davidson]

One particular immersion killer for me is the lucky dip when entering and leaving port, noticeably at Wilhelmshaven....:ahoy: will there be full port facilities visible, barracks, cranes, docks, etc?....or will there be a forlorn U-boot pen set amidst vacant sand bars and not much else? :hmmm: Oh yes!.... the port shipping is still as deadly as ever though..... :har:

Hard to get enthused about going out on patrol when you sail out of your pen and see that old Doenitz has packed up the party and gone home without telling you.... :doh:

[Zedi]

...
And the absolutely STUPID misson requirements.... "Sink 100,000 tonnes" in less than a year. O-rly.... from one little U-boat?? Or "Sink a Battleship".... O-rly...and how many U-boats sunk a capital ship single handedly. (I look forward to the mods that make more realistic "goals" but Im not modding until the patch comes out).
Yeah, completely crazy.. a single u-boat sent to sink a bf battleship surrounded with heavy escorts. Or the Winston's Special mission where u have to find 4 ships sailing on a route from GB down to SA :x Is like finding a needle in the middle of the ocean. The scripting part is a disaster in SH5, luck with the graphics.. is the only thing that sells the game.

I hope some day the moders will have time to rework the whole campaign or make another one with more realistic requirements.

[Feuer Frei!]

"How broken is broken? seriously":

For me, not broken, otherwise it would be unplayable, which it isn't in technical terms.
I won't repeat other's issues with the game, as i concur with most of them, ie. AI, Mission objectives, save games going up in smoke, some coding issues eg. lag in certain parts and scripting issues eg. campaign "flow"...
I am reliant on the mods which makes this more than playable.
I am happy i purchased the game, always optimistic about further support for the game and enjoying ploughing the Seas in 1939 :salute:

[doomlordis]

Actually uboats were often tasked with intercepting grand fleet BBs etc, not so unrealistic. Donitz didnt like it but what can you do!

[Faamecanic]

Actually uboats were often tasked with intercepting grand fleet BBs etc, not so unrealistic. Donitz didnt like it but what can you do!

Sure the Uboats were tasked with this.... but how many actually sank a BB? And to make it a mission requirement to SINK a capital ship (not just intercept) is just dumb.

Again I agree....I think the modders will fix this pretty quickly (they already have fixed the rediculous tonnage requirements).

[H-street]

for me the main thing is the AI/Ships.

everytime i try to play SH5 i usually end up closing it because of it.

when leaving port, seeing other ships just ramming into the bank or the docks etc just are not fun. When going down the canal and the Ai/Ships don't know how to navigate the canal and instead they ram into the bank so much they end up "cliping" into the land gets a little annoying.

I even had an enemy merchant vessels spawn into the canal, ram the bank trying to get away etc.. etc.. ( i didn't feel bad enough for them not to sink them though lol)

then i had the "shadow" ai issue happen, where i had an enemy warship contact that never got any closer to me and was perfectly mirroring my movements, very irritating.


i am a very forgiving gamer when it comes to bugs, i own over 300+ original PC games - i love to collect them. and in my time gaming there are only a couple of games i actually was appaulled at their state at release and would be considering broken.

The big one was WWIIOnline, i was there on launch day and anyone else who was there knows the pain that was WWIIOnline, the code to fire the rifle wasn't even on the pressed CD. at game launch there was a 100mb patch that added some functionality, it was so bad they didn't even charge the monthly fee for 6 or 7 months.. really bad. (notice how its called Battleground Europe now, and not its original WWIIOnline)

and although SH5 isn't nearly that bad (not by a long shot), the AI bugs and atmosphere that the AI bugs bring really makes it tough to play for me.

so to answer your question,

WWIIOnline, at release was broken/unplayable

SH5 has some glaring bugs, but is playable and is even fun. But some of the bugs just make it frustrating to play sometimes

[Frumpkis]

In the stock game you cant be killed under periscope depth, that my friend is a big issue.
The AI for destroyers is broken and the depth charges are practically harmless in stock form.
The planes do not attack 99% of the time

Thanks for the replies on the AI, everyone. Okay, so there is now a release date for the next patch (May 11) and a list of fixes in the patch:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=169048

Aside from the pathfinding for merchants in harbors, there is no mention of any other AI improvements... nothing about aircraft attacks, better DD behavior, and so on. I don't want " laser range finders and wide aperture array sonars in 1939" as another post mentioned, but I do want competent enemies after the initial Happy Time period. Being 100% safe under periscope depth is not what I look for in games like this.

So... I guess I'll wait to buy the game, and see what people's reactions are, after the next patch. Sometimes the devs don't mention AI improvements, especially if they're a secondary effect of another fix. So I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Also, if patch 2 is the last one for a while, the modders might be able to start addressing some of these AI issues.

[McBeck]

It has been mentioned again and again, that the AIs ability to detect you is realistic created. Just wait till you get to later parts in the game ;)

[doomlordis]

I know what you are getting at , I was first attacked by a plane in med campaign but I have never been attacked before that , that is unrealistic.