Why I've decided not to buy, or own, SH5 (and I hope Ubi reads this)

[schlechter pfennig]

I've already posted on the SHIII forum my views of Silent Hunter III. Should anyone be interested in them you'll find that here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168658

But now I'd like to expound my feelings about SH5.

First off, I need to make clear two things: one is that I don't own SH5, nor have I played it at all. And, two (and Ubi, I really hope you pay attention to what follows, although, based upon experience . . . ::sighs::) I'm not ever going to own it or play it.

Last year, when I first found out about the as-then upcoming release of SH5 I was ecstatic . . . and bummed.

Ecstatic because, based upon the trailers I'd seen it looked fantastic! And because I felt sure that, after three years of following everything that had evolved on this forum, and paying attention to the mods that had been developed, and paying attention to our wistful 'wish-lists', that SH5 would be everything we'd ever dreamed SHIII could be, and much more.

And bummed because I knew my current rig was waaaaaay too old to handle running SH5. Although I didn't know what SH5 would require vis-à-vis hardware it didn't take a rocket scientist to understand that what I had wasn't going to even meet the minimum requirements. Heck, it wasn't enough to have run SH4!

As the weeks went by I kept replaying the trailers and keeping up with the tidbit releases with a sense of wistful anticipation. One day I called my XO (i.e. wifey :D)over and showed her the trailer. She asked me if I was going to buy it when it came out and I told her I'd love to, but that I wouldn't be able to run it even it I did.

I didn't make a big deal of it but, a few weeks later, she said that if I needed a newer PC in order to run it, then if I wanted maybe we should look at buying one with our tax return.

OK Ubi, point number one: one of your (potential) customers was willing to shell out big bucks for the single, sole reason of being able to run your PC game.

I had no idea what the cost of the game would be but, if it was anything at all like I was hoping it would be --SHIII with all the bugs removed, with all the graphics and increased realism the supermods bring to it, with all the 'broken things' (like torpedo planes, torpedo boats and destroyers not being able to fire torpedoes), etc.-- I would have been willing to pay US$200 - US$250 for it.

OK Ubi, point number two: at least one of your (potential) customers would have paid mucho top dollar for your product.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending upon one's viewpoint) we hadn't as yet filed our taxes when SH5 was released. So, to salve and ease my 'addiction' I'd started checking up on reviews . . . and found myself both bitterly disappointed and utterly disgusted.

OK Ubi, please please please, I implore you, pay close attention to the following editorial. And, as well, remember something very important: we don't need you, but you need us.

Let's start with the DRM. Obviously you haven't learned anything since the Starfarce debacle. Yes, I agree that software creators have concerns regarding theft and piracy. But, in my opinion, you seem to have been more concerned with software piracy protection then you did about game content and development.

I work in a company that has CADCAM software. Each seat is roughly US$50 grand. Trust me, if anyone's gonna worry about a product being pirated they should be. And do you know how they control that? With a simple USB dongle, coded to each seat.

That's right Ubi. You could have still enabled customers to play SH5 without needing the DVD in the tray, and with the ability to install it on multiple PCs, too. But you'd need to have that dongle in the PC in order to play the game.

Instead, you've chained us to the requirement of having a permanent Internet connection. So what happens if my cable goes down? I can't watch TV, so I might want to relax and play my favorite game . . . not. What if I'm traveling and I'm somewhere that doesn't have Internet access? Not everyone does, you know. And more to the point, if something goes down at your end, everyone's screwed.

I could have lived with that, I suppose. Lived with it not, of course, the same as being happy about it. But that's not the main reason I'll never buy, own or play SH5.

I was anticipating SHIII on steroids. You'd had three years to follow postings on Subsim. Three years to listen to our gripes and suggestions. Three years to analyze mods and supermods. Three years to learn what your customers wanted.

And from what I'm seeing and hearing, you just went your merry ol' way and did what you wanted to do.

We wanted a simulation; you gave us an arcade game. We wanted a dynamic campaign; you end things in the middle of the war. We wanted the ability to control all aspects of our boat if we wished to do so; you don't even give us a compass, the ability to check our depth under keel, or even historic nav maps!

I'm not going to list all the problems we, and I, have with your product. Far too many people have already done so. I do, however, want to address one topic I keep seeing: that of patiently waiting for SH5 to be modded.

SHIII, from what I've seen, read about, and understand, was a huge departure from the norm. So I'm understanding (not happy, mind you, but understanding) about the holes and bugs the released/patched final version contained. And, yes, the modded versions make a good product much, much better.

But you've had years to learn all that, too. I shouldn't have to wait for Subsim's modding community to fine-tune and fix your product. Enhance and polish, oh yes. But require them to repair and refit such a pooch-screwed release for you? No way!

So, in closing, I hope that someone at Ubi pays heed to all we've posted about Silent Hunter on here. Because I'm very much afraid if they don't, we've seen the last of submarine simulations from them.

[Feuer Frei!]

Fair enough.

[Krauter]

fail black lettering.. I'm not squinting for the next 3 mins to read this..

Also, why so many "I give up I quit :wah: " posts..

Oh an you think Ubi cares what we say about them on this forum? Sure they may read about what we have to say. But if I were a dev or Ubi official/whatever, after reading 5+ "ubi sucks/drm fails/etc" posts I wouldn't give a damn about what people have to say. Why go on a forum where all you do is get bashed?

[schlechter pfennig]

fail black lettering.. I'm not squinting for the next 3 mins to read this..

Also, why so many "I give up I quit :wah: " posts..

Oh an you think Ubi cares what we say about them on this forum? Sure they may read about what we have to say. But if I were a dev or Ubi official/whatever, after reading 5+ "ubi sucks/drm fails/etc" posts I wouldn't give a damn about what people have to say. Why go on a forum where all you do is get bashed?

Sorry about the black lettering; I pasted a Word doc and it came out black.

As to 'bashing' Ubi . . . I've nothing but praise for SHIII . . . I just wish Ubi had listened and learned from that.

[Krauter]

let me rephrase that.. bashing Ubi about DRM and or SH5

[schlechter pfennig]

let me rephrase that.. bashing Ubi about DRM and or SH5

I'm not trying to bash; just rendering my opinion and hoping that Ubi might value the opinion of one of its customers. Most successful businesses pay attention to customer opinions, praises and complaints; I would hope Ubisoft does, too.

[Krauter]

If you look at their track record, I don't think they do..

[robbo180265]

I'm not trying to bash; just rendering my opinion and hoping that Ubi might value the opinion of one of its customers. Most successful businesses pay attention to customer opinions, praises and complaints; I would hope Ubisoft does, too.

Bear with me - this isn't a hijack;)

A few months ago my girlfriend and I decided to stop using products that have palm oil in it.

We made this decision because of the damage it's doing to the enviroment (it's destroying the natural habitat of the Orangutan) The list of products is huge - and it's changed our lifestyle massively.

We wrote to every single manufacturer and told them that we would no-longer be using their products and why. We also contacted all our local supermarkets and explained our feelings and asked for lists of products etc - in case we'd missed any.

It took us about 3 days but we thought it worth it.

You are boycotting 1 product , made by 1 manufacturer.

Posting a letter here and hoping UBI reads it is a waste of time, kinda like if my girlfriend and I had written a letter in the local paper hoping that all those manufacturers had read it.

Do you see my point?

Basically - by not buying the game and doing nothing more, you are doing nothing.

If you want to beat the DRM etc - you should let UBI know why you are not buying the game - and make your boycot count.


My tuppence worth...

[Méo]

I'd be very surprised if the survival of Ubisoft would be determined by the success or the failure of the Silent Hunter series.

[Feuer Frei!]

I'd be very surprised if the survival of Ubisoft would be determined by the success or the failure of the Silent Hunter series.
Agreed!
It's not just SH games they produce. I assume you are also insinuating the copy protection method they have implemented.
I'm not in the game of speculating, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they will turn their attentions to "other" more profitable markets, ie games.

[Méo]

I assume you are also insinuating the copy protection method they have implemented.

Not really, but I guess Assassin's Creed 2 is the game that really matters on this.

I'm not in the game of speculating, but it wouldn't surprise me one bit if they will turn their attentions to "other" more profitable markets, ie games.

This is precisely what I meant. :)

[karamazovnew]

Schlechter, I completely agree with you. I however have already bought the game so, unlike you, I've seen the bugs in action so I still hold hope that without the bugs and with a bit of further modding, SH5 will indeed become on par or even better than its grand daddy SH3.

However, SH5 is just as arcadey as SH3 and SH4 (being from the same developers). I must've wanted a SIM, because right now, one month after uninstalling the game, I've yet to play a full patrol in SH3 or SH4. I fire them up from time to time to look at the waves. I'll probably play SH5 for a few more days after the patch and then a few more days in December (since tanker ships don't yet have ADSL connections so that the crew can play Ubisoft games during leisure time). Maybe I'll do a full campaign with GWX5 or RUB 1-2 years from now.

Maybe it's time Ubi thought about hiring a few naval experts and allocate enough time and money for a proper open code naval sim. Sub sims are the best of the lot and wll worth the investment in the long run because of the lack of good sims on PC.

[SteveW1]

Fair post

[janh]

...A few months ago my girlfriend and I decided to stop using products that have palm oil in it. ...

I don't want to discourage your efforts, but palm oil is now being intensely investigated as new feedstock (besides switchgrass and others) for biofuel production... If we find this thing to be useful, hmmh, poor fellas...

So your letters and efforts were likely as much a waste of time as the above post, which in one or another version was written here many times before. I am sure some Ubi people read this, even if it is only the Ubisoft Romania guy that will hopefully then mention some of the negative feedback at staff meetings with Ubisoft tier ones. Chances are, however, that the past trends will just continue.

[robbo180265]

I don't want to discourage your efforts, but palm oil is now being intensely investigated as new feedstock (besides switchgrass and others) for biofuel production... If we find this thing to be useful, hmmh, poor fellas...

So your letters and efforts were likely as much a waste of time as the above post, which in one or another version was written here many times before. I am sure some Ubi people read this, even if it is only the Ubisoft Romania guy that will hopefully then mention some of the negative feedback at staff meetings with Ubisoft tier ones. Chances are, however, that the past trends will just continue.

Whilst I to some extent agree with you - in this world of consumerism and greed many people don't care, there are however, still many of us that do and the numbers are growing constantly.
Asda, one of our big supermarkets over here has now stopped stocking palm oil products because of public pressure - others are clearly lableling the products now.

And if the "Little fellas" are forced into extinction because of man's greed, my conscience is clear.

My point however was that unless you let the people in charge know whats going on and why you no-longer want their products - you are wasting your time boycotting their products.

Writing here that you hope UBI will read something when 90% of the time they can't even be arsed to read their own forums is a waste of time.

The OP needs to contact UBI directly.

[THE_MASK]

I boughjt SH5 because its fun to play . With the mods we have already its the best silent hunter game .

[raymond6751]

I fully believe that SH5 is the last sub sim UBI will make and I think they made that decision before releasing it.

Last month I bought two PC games that I have yet to play. I bought them because they will be the last PC games released by their respective developers. I wanted the last ones, since I refuse to buy a console.

I seriously think UBI and other companies are moving away from making PC games and looking for new horizons. Sub sims have been done and there isn't much room for future innovations.

So, if you don't buy SH5, don't look for an SH6 because I can't see it happening.

[Brag]

Schlehter Pfennig made a well aarticulate post, explaining a position widely shared by a lot of subsimmers. Ubi's attitude is not limited to SH. They have enraged a lot of other game enthusiasts.

As long as people vote with their wallets, and intelligent consumers always do, UBI is heading for the rocks.

Pfennig also shows how Ubi can protect its intellectual property without hurting the consummer.

[robbo180265]

comment withdrawn.

Having a bad day:oops:

[Takeda Shingen]

As long as people vote with their wallets, and intelligent consumers always do, UBI is heading for the rocks.

Yeah, except most publishers, like Ubi, make their money from consoles, not the PC. Most of their current woes are due to poor Playstation catalog sales and their little feud with some company called Nintendo. The economy is bad. People just aren't buying games like they used to.

Sorry, but it is very clear that the DRM angst isn't even a blip on the RADAR.

[IanC]

comment withdrawn.

Having a bad day:oops:

wife nagging you to take out the trash?

[robbo180265]

wife nagging you to take out the trash?

Lol - something like that:03:

[Bilge_Rat]

Schlehter Pfennig made a well aarticulate post, explaining a position widely shared by a lot of subsimmers.


hardly, the game has been out two months now, its only a handful of posters who are still obssessed with this issue.

most real subsimmers are playing a subsim, SH5 or something else, they dont spend all their time worrying about what games other adults play in their free time.

[Méo]

the game has been out two months now, its only a handful of posters who are still obssessed with this issue.

Yeah, I'm still amazed to see how obsessed they are. (not pointing the OP, only those who keep expressing their wrath over and over and over...)

[krashkart]

For what it's worth, I've decided not to buy pizza tonight. It'll probably give me heartburn, which in turn will keep me up part of the night, and it's just plain unpleasant. Besides, I can save that money for the gay biker party on Friday. I wonder if the lovely Reece will be there? :D

[robbo180265]

For what it's worth, I've decided not to buy pizza tonight. It'll probably give me heartburn, which in turn will keep me up part of the night, and it's just plain unpleasant. Besides, I can save that money for the gay biker party on Friday. I wonder if the lovely Reece will be there? :D

:har:

[tonschk]

hardly, the game has been out two months now, its only a handful of posters who are still obssessed with this issue.

.

Please compare the two screens below to understand why are they obsessed with the new Silent Hunter 5

http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/4431/akp.png (http://img121.imageshack.us/i/akp.png/)
http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3351/ggggyyyextra.png (http://img401.imageshack.us/i/ggggyyyextra.png/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

[robbo180265]

hardly, the game has been out two months now, its only a handful of posters who are still obssessed with this issue.




Please compare the two screens below to understand why are they obsessed with the new Silent Hunter 5


Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)



I do rather think you are missing the point somewhat tonschk.

Bilge Rat was referring to the anti DRM crowd (sorry guys , it's not a dig I just can't think of a better way of describing you atm) - I have absolutely no idea what that has to do with your screenshots, or why you posted them.

[krashkart]

I think he's trying to point out that the SH3 crowd wants SH3 with better graphics.

[robbo180265]

I think he's trying to point out that the SH3 crowd wants SH3 with better graphics.

If that is the case then he's quoting BR out of context to get his point across.

Here's the whole quote

hardly, the game has been out two months now, its only a handful of posters who are still obssessed with this issue.

most real subsimmers are playing a subsim, SH5 or something else, they dont spend all their time worrying about what games other adults play in their free time.

See what I mean?

[codmander]

I've already posted on the SHIII forum my views of Silent Hunter III. Should anyone be interested in them you'll find that here: http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168658

But now I'd like to expound my feelings about SH5.

First off, I need to make clear two things: one is that I don't own SH5, nor have I played it at all. And, two (and Ubi, I really hope you pay attention to what follows, although, based upon experience . . . ::sighs::) I'm not ever going to own it or play it.

Last year, when I first found out about the as-then upcoming release of SH5 I was ecstatic . . . and bummed.

Ecstatic because, based upon the trailers I'd seen it looked fantastic! And because I felt sure that, after three years of following everything that had evolved on this forum, and paying attention to the mods that had been developed, and paying attention to our wistful 'wish-lists', that SH5 would be everything we'd ever dreamed SHIII could be, and much more.

And bummed because I knew my current rig was waaaaaay too old to handle running SH5. Although I didn't know what SH5 would require vis-à-vis hardware it didn't take a rocket scientist to understand that what I had wasn't going to even meet the minimum requirements. Heck, it wasn't enough to have run SH4!

As the weeks went by I kept replaying the trailers and keeping up with the tidbit releases with a sense of wistful anticipation. One day I called my XO (i.e. wifey :D)over and showed her the trailer. She asked me if I was going to buy it when it came out and I told her I'd love to, but that I wouldn't be able to run it even it I did.

I didn't make a big deal of it but, a few weeks later, she said that if I needed a newer PC in order to run it, then if I wanted maybe we should look at buying one with our tax return.

OK Ubi, point number one: one of your (potential) customers was willing to shell out big bucks for the single, sole reason of being able to run your PC game.

I had no idea what the cost of the game would be but, if it was anything at all like I was hoping it would be --SHIII with all the bugs removed, with all the graphics and increased realism the supermods bring to it, with all the 'broken things' (like torpedo planes, torpedo boats and destroyers not being able to fire torpedoes), etc.-- I would have been willing to pay US$200 - US$250 for it.

OK Ubi, point number two: at least one of your (potential) customers would have paid mucho top dollar for your product.

Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending upon one's viewpoint) we hadn't as yet filed our taxes when SH5 was released. So, to salve and ease my 'addiction' I'd started checking up on reviews . . . and found myself both bitterly disappointed and utterly disgusted.

OK Ubi, please please please, I implore you, pay close attention to the following editorial. And, as well, remember something very important: we don't need you, but you need us.

Let's start with the DRM. Obviously you haven't learned anything since the Starfarce debacle. Yes, I agree that software creators have concerns regarding theft and piracy. But, in my opinion, you seem to have been more concerned with software piracy protection then you did about game content and development.

I work in a company that has CADCAM software. Each seat is roughly US$50 grand. Trust me, if anyone's gonna worry about a product being pirated they should be. And do you know how they control that? With a simple USB dongle, coded to each seat.

That's right Ubi. You could have still enabled customers to play SH5 without needing the DVD in the tray, and with the ability to install it on multiple PCs, too. But you'd need to have that dongle in the PC in order to play the game.

Instead, you've chained us to the requirement of having a permanent Internet connection. So what happens if my cable goes down? I can't watch TV, so I might want to relax and play my favorite game . . . not. What if I'm traveling and I'm somewhere that doesn't have Internet access? Not everyone does, you know. And more to the point, if something goes down at your end, everyone's screwed.

I could have lived with that, I suppose. Lived with it not, of course, the same as being happy about it. But that's not the main reason I'll never buy, own or play SH5.

I was anticipating SHIII on steroids. You'd had three years to follow postings on Subsim. Three years to listen to our gripes and suggestions. Three years to analyze mods and supermods. Three years to learn what your customers wanted.

And from what I'm seeing and hearing, you just went your merry ol' way and did what you wanted to do.

We wanted a simulation; you gave us an arcade game. We wanted a dynamic campaign; you end things in the middle of the war. We wanted the ability to control all aspects of our boat if we wished to do so; you don't even give us a compass, the ability to check our depth under keel, or even historic nav maps!

I'm not going to list all the problems we, and I, have with your product. Far too many people have already done so. I do, however, want to address one topic I keep seeing: that of patiently waiting for SH5 to be modded.

SHIII, from what I've seen, read about, and understand, was a huge departure from the norm. So I'm understanding (not happy, mind you, but understanding) about the holes and bugs the released/patched final version contained. And, yes, the modded versions make a good product much, much better.

But you've had years to learn all that, too. I shouldn't have to wait for Subsim's modding community to fine-tune and fix your product. Enhance and polish, oh yes. But require them to repair and refit such a pooch-screwed release for you? No way!

So, in closing, I hope that someone at Ubi pays heed to all we've posted about Silent Hunter on here. Because I'm very much afraid if they don't, we've seen the last of submarine simulations from them.

ditto:up:

[krashkart]

If that is the case then he's quoting BR out of context to get his point across.

Here's the whole quote



See what I mean?

I usually don't get involved trying to point out who is right or wrong. But, we have one guy saying most of us are too busy playing to really give a rat's behind about SH5's troubles, which is true. Another guy is showing the vast graphical superiority of the new SH5 as opposed to the older, time-tested and proven SH3. It's true, the graphics in SH5 are much, much better. Might even be true that some of the anti-SH5 crowd are devout SH3 fans, but this I do not know for certain. :DL

If that made any sense then my hangover must be wearing off. :haha:


I'm not against the ppl that has a full right to toss this game (at current state) into the garbage bin, but I feel that this thread is one of many to face a lockdown sooner or later. Simply because Subsim.com is way too friendly to UBI no matter what crap they're making, Subsim sour cream will stay solidary quiet and better not talk about bad things themselves, moreover every thread that comes with titles of any form against UBI, SH5 or DRM are actively monitored by moderators, for simple reason to look for "overedged" comments and then as an excuse to use it for locking it up..

While I can agree with some of that to some extent, I also have to agree with the work that is being done by the moderators to preserve the peace at Subsim. For a better idea of the "peace" I'm talking about, hang out in General Topics for awhile and see how it comes together. Then have a look at the locked threads, here at Subsim and also at numerous other fan/game sites - with particular attention paid to newer releases. From my perspective, and having been on two sides of the debate now for ten-plus years, the lockdowns are just part of the routine. So is all the bitching, the long-winded speeches, so on and so forth. With that said, I keep a good sense of humor about it because it goes with the territory. All new games come with bugs, and there are always, and will always be, reasons not to buy or whatever the case may be. :DL

And, if any of that made sense... :smug:

[Takeda Shingen]

I'm not against the ppl that has a full right to toss this game (at current state) into the garbage bin, but I feel that this thread is one of many to face a lockdown sooner or later. Simply because Subsim.com is way too friendly to UBI no matter what crap they're making, Subsim sour cream will stay solidary quiet and better not talk about bad things themselves, moreover every thread that comes with titles of any form against UBI, SH5 or DRM are actively monitored by moderators, for simple reason to look for "overedged" comments and then as an excuse to use it for locking it up..

I don't care if you like DRM. I don't care if you think it the sign of the Apocalypse. All I care about is that you don't talk about circumventing copy protection here.

[Bilge_Rat]

I think he's trying to point out that the SH3 crowd wants SH3 with better graphics.


easy..play SH5..:arrgh!:

[krashkart]

easy..play SH5..:arrgh!:

:har:

Tell ya what, send me money to build a system that will run it and I'll consider it. :O:

I won't knock your game. If you likes it then that's all that matters. SH3 is my current crush. :03:

[Bilge_Rat]

SH3 is my current crush. :03:

sh3 and sh4 are great games, enjoy. :ping:

[krashkart]

This is for Subsim itself, or for Neal to care less about Subsims spiritual wealth by spreading propaganda that: "SH5 crap is actually a chocolatte cake, you just don;t know it yet (or will be someday)".

Care to point us to the propaganda? :06:

What I've seen since browsing the SH5 forums is the usual assortment of questions, AAR's and so forth, and the usual "hate mail" type of stuff that comes with any new release. But maybe I missed the force-feeding of "SH5 is good"? :)

[John Channing]

You are spouting absolute nonsense. What Subsim is (or should be) is very adequatley summed up here (from the Subsim FAQ)...


The Radio Room forum is not the place for flaming, spewing, or otherwise mouthing off. We do not allow posts where people are called idiots, morons, etc. We respect your freedom of speech, we ask that you respect our rules. You are welcome to express your opinion about games and other subjects. We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!* and other immature rants. Like something or dislike something about a game, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms. There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general.


Now, if you are incapable of posting in a mature fashion then that is going to be a problem. Other than that knock yourself out.

JCC

[krashkart]

The pressure to stay positive or be quiet is in the air despite it's not written. The quantity of locked up threads gives it away. Obviously they were created by some pissed to death ppl about SH5 that is not acceptable by posh Subsim policy. Whatever..

It is what it is. Truth be told, I bet once some patches are released the air will clear up a bit. In the meantime, we'll probably see more back-and-forth and lockdowns. It's difficult for me to see the heavy-handedness I've read about, mainly because I don't post much up here, and also because it's exactly the same as any other forum (for new games) I've frequented in the past. As for "freedom of speech", well, John Channing made a good point earlier. Also recognize that it stops where the hardcore moderation must begin. It's up to us as members to decide how to reign ourselves in without moderator intervention. ;)

Hang out in General Topics for awhile, have a laugh or two. :()1:

[Takeda Shingen]

All I'm saying is: All that comes naturally should not be restricted. Emotions makes us humans not a machines. As they say it should be a mature forum ? What makes all of us mature ? Age or the way you treat yourself and others ? If somebody doesn't like natural emotions since they're too old to express them themselves is only their own problems. Or should we gather here on the day of first pension and act in cold-grey stable boring way ? If somebody so desperately wants to be that mature please add the age confirmation tab prior registration for everyone new to know this place as for old codgers..

This place isn't just for old cogders, although guys like Steve and Jim are both welcome here. Rather it is a place for civility in discussion. That is what sets SubSim.com apart from other types of gaming forums, including the ones that you, evidently, are accustomed to.

[Takeda Shingen]

Also recognize that it stops where the hardcore moderation must begin. It's up to us as members to decide how to reign ourselves in without moderator intervention.

Excellent. That is exactly the point, and why this forum has had the success it has. Frankly, I wish you'd post more.

[Méo]

You are spouting absolute nonsense. What Subsim is (or should be) is very adequatley summed up here (from the Subsim FAQ)...

The Radio Room forum is not the place for flaming, spewing, or otherwise mouthing off. We do not allow posts where people are called idiots, morons, etc. We respect your freedom of speech, we ask that you respect our rules. You are welcome to express your opinion about games and other subjects. We do not want SUBSIM Review and the Radio Room forums to degenerate into a collection of *This game sux!!!!* and other immature rants. Like something or dislike something about agame, express your thoughts in reasoned and responsible terms. There are any number of forums which allow unbridled idiocy to reign, we want the Radio Room to be a civil, mature forum for discussions about naval and subsims, tactics, mods, playing tips, troubleshooting, and submarine topics in general. Now, if you are incapable of posting in a mature fashion then that is going to be a problem. Other than that knock yourself out.

JCC

Thanks.

Seems like few members here forgot that.

[krashkart]

This place isn't just for old cogders, although guys like Steve and Jim are both welcome here. Rather it is a place for civility in discussion. That is what sets SubSim.com apart from other types of gaming forums, including the ones that you, evidently, are accustomed to.

Precisely why I recommend going to General Topics to see how heated debates are handled there. And believe me, there are some heated debates in there. I don't recall seeing a locked thread in GT since I joined, and so far only one member who frequents that forum is in the brig at the moment. We tend to keep things pretty clean on our own, despite our many differing views.

All I'm saying is: All that comes naturally should not be restricted. Emotions makes us humans not a machines. As they say it should be a mature forum ? What makes all of us mature ? Age or the way you treat yourself and others ? If somebody doesn't like natural emotions since they're too old to express them themselves is only their own problems. Or should we gather here on the day of first pension and act in cold-grey stable boring way ? If somebody so desperately wants to be that mature please add the age confirmation tab prior registration for everyone new to know this place as for old codgers..

Brunos, emotions certainly do make us human. I won't argue that. What makes Subsim mature is not age, it's behavior. What I'm trying to help you understand is that you have the right to speak freely. If I see a thread get locked down, I know that someone had to do their job. Doesn't really hurt my feelings any, and when you get right down to it it doesn't affect my rights as a member in any way. I can still speak freely as I wish. The trick is in knowing what is appropriate and what is not.

If nothing else, don't try to press the issues too hard - especially here in the SH5 forum. I think the moderators are probably fed up with some of the nonsense that has sprouted up over the last couple of months. As I have pointed out before, when a new game is released things tend to get really hairy until the first patch or two come out. Subsim is trying to keep the place from going to hell in a handbasket (as has happened on so many other sites). If that happens, then it's difficult for anyone to enjoy spending time here. Enjoy your time here. That's really what Subsim is all about. :)

[NefariousKoel]

You are spouting absolute nonsense. What Subsim is (or should be) is very adequatley summed up here (from the Subsim FAQ)...



Now, if you are incapable of posting in a mature fashion then that is going to be a problem. Other than that knock yourself out.

JCC


I think he's put forth a relatively reasonable and mature view on what he perceives around here.

He doesn't need intervention, warnings, or chastising. While he's correct about mods being rather one-sided around here, you guys have exercised restraint more than some would when faced by the angry villagers with pitchforks and torches. I believe Neal has some thanks due for keeping everyone level-headed (including mods) during the backlash, judging by a comment of yours awhile back:


We seem to have a lot of new people here who don't know how to, or are incapable of, carrying on a civil discussion. Neal seems to want to allow this for the time being... so be it. But that doesn't mean that people who disagree with the anti-Ubisoft posts have to hide away and let the ranters run wild, does it? Or are they the only ones now allowed to express their opinions?
(my bold)

It does tend to give the impression that the metaphoric itchy finger was on the trigger at some point and you don't seem to be the only one. I try to be empathetic as to mods having to read too much stuff they don't care, don't agree with, or don't want to read while trying to stay somewhat impartial and sane. Considering that, all has gone fairly well even though sentiment and opinion has been involved from everyone and, perhaps, further measures were desired.

Being moderators who are willing to state their opinions on same message boards will always result in some who disagree with them feeling as if they're walking a thin line.

I've not seen anyone kicked for stating their opinion without large amounts of cursing, yet, so it's all good. ;)

[Takeda Shingen]

Precisely why I recommend going to General Topics to see how heated debates are handled there. And believe me, there are some heated debates in there. I don't recall seeing a locked thread in GT since I joined, and so far only one member who frequents that forum is in the brig at the moment. We tend to keep things pretty clean on our own, despite our many differing views.

It's pretty good down there right now, but it has, historically, been the 'trouble' forum. I used to moderate that one back during the previous few US election cycles. Ugly. Frankly, SH5 is, comparatively, a cake walk. The locked thread volume on this forum is nothing compared to GT about a year ago.

[scrag]

schlechter pfennig - good point and well written.

It is unlikely that UBI will change it's stance - it is unfortunate that SHV was used to help launch DRM (which by what I was told from UBI is here to stay).

I have played subsims for a long time - my first game was GATO from SPECTRUM HOLOBYTE so I have seen a few of these.

Despite the eye candy and other window dressing IMHO UBI failed to deliever a reliable product and failed to deliever a SUB SIM vice hybrid RPG/SIM.

That being said I can only hope that Modders continue working on SHIV.

[Feuer Frei!]

That being said I can only hope that Modders continue working on SHIV.
You mean SH V don't you?
Of course if they keep up the amazing work on IV, that is great news too.

[schlechter pfennig]

Bear with me - this isn't a hijack;)

. . . . . . . .

You are boycotting 1 product , made by 1 manufacturer.

Posting a letter here and hoping UBI reads it is a waste of time, kinda like if my girlfriend and I had written a letter in the local paper hoping that all those manufacturers had read it.

Do you see my point?

Basically - by not buying the game and doing nothing more, you are doing nothing.

If you want to beat the DRM etc - you should let UBI know why you are not buying the game - and make your boycot count.


My tuppence worth...

Your tuppence is actually quite valuable, at least to me robbo180265, and I thank you for it.

I will be sending Ubisoft an email regarding my dissatisfaction (assuming I can figger out how to contact them that is! :O:). I do wish to clarify two things:

I'm not looking to 'beat the DRM'; I believe Ubisoft has a legitimate and understandable reason to wish safeguarding against piracy (which equivalates to lost revenues). I just think they're taking the wrong approach to that, and in doing so treating loyal and paying customers like they're untrustworthy, red-headed stepchildren.
My bigger beef isn't DRM; it's substance. Instead of listening to all of us over these last four years they appear to have decided they know what we all want all on their own. C'mon Ubi! You could have looked at SubSim as a focus group for you. D'you know how much companies pay for focus groups?? And you had a huge one here, and all for free, yet you failed to avail yourself of that.

[krashkart]

It's pretty good down there right now, but it has, historically, been the 'trouble' forum. I used to moderate that one back during the previous few US election cycles. Ugly. Frankly, SH5 is, comparatively, a cake walk. The locked thread volume on this forum is nothing compared to GT about a year ago.

Wow, that I did not know. Haven't been around here long enough I guess. :haha:

[MILLANDSON]

Talks about copy protection is only a tiny peace of rules to obey here and the most particular to follow and control. What I wanted to point out is more abstract thing as a freedom of speech by expressing your opinion in cold or hot condition depending on frustration ppl has here about the game. You think in this place here the freedom of speech exist ? Well it depends on your attitude.

Well no, it doesn't depend on your attitude. The answer is no, freedom of speech doesn't apply here, just as it doesn't apply on any other forum or website on the entirety of the Internet.

I'll assume you are pointing towards the US Constitutional right to free speech in your comments (though the right to free speech included in the European Convention of Human Rights also falls under this). If you look at them properly, as with the "free speech" laws of any other nation, you'll find it only ever applies to what the government can or can't stop you saying. "Freedom of Speech" doesn't apply to private individuals or groups stopping you from saying things.

This forum is not run by the US government (or whatever government you care to mention), and so any laws governing freedom of speech do not apply here, have never applied here, and will likely never apply here. Since they don't apply here, you have to follow the rules, and if a mod calls you up on it, there's nothing you can do about it except do what they say, because that's how it works on forums.

Damn, I wish people would actually read into this stuff before they start spouting off about how they should be able to say what they want because they have "free speech". To anyone with any knowledge of politics or law (I happen to have a degree in each), it just makes them look silly.

[Reece]

For what it's worth, I've decided not to buy pizza tonight. It'll probably give me heartburn, which in turn will keep me up part of the night, and it's just plain unpleasant. Besides, I can save that money for the gay biker party on Friday. I wonder if the lovely Reece will be there? :DHey!!:eek: First it's Frau Kaleun, now me! What a naughty boy, I'll see ya there mate!:03:

[schlechter pfennig]

I do want to make another clarification or two, especially since this has seem to have wandered quite a bit from the topic.

SH5 could be utterly flawless and bug-free. Everything could work perfectly. I still wouldn't buy it.

One is, yes, I'm not happy with the permanent Internet connection requirement. But if that was the only fly in the ointment I'd live with it. Grouse under my breath at times, perhaps, but I'd deal.

The major reason I'm not going to buy it is because it's neither what I wanted nor expected, especially after having over four years of analyzing our requests and 'wish lists'. I wanted, and expected, a top-of-the-line U-boat simulation, and that's not at all what they developed and presented.

That's it in a nutshell. No DRM boycotting. No complaining about draconian anti-piracy protections. Just plain and simple disgust and disappointment.

From the sound of things quite a few of you enjoy SH5. I'm happy for you. Honestly, no sarcasm or irony intended. And I'm not implying, directly or otherwise, anything at all about your tastes or interests. That would be wrong of me.

But I also hope you'll understand why I'm disappointed and, even if you don't, or can't, agree with me as to why, at the very least agree that I deserve to feel the way I do.

[Stinger22]

Heck I don't even know what DRM is and whatever copy-protection is being used is transparent to me. I have SH3 and 4 those are closer to Sims maybe but I didn't need another copy of either of those. SH5 is just another flavor, one that is more immersive and nicer to look at. I feel more like a captain of a sub with a crew than just someone playing with a Sim.

They are what they are and each it's own flavor. If you don't like one or the other oh well. Play the one you like. Me I'm on SH5 for the for see able future.

[Feuer Frei!]

The major reason I'm not going to buy it is because it's neither what I wanted nor expected, especially after having over four years of analyzing our requests and 'wish lists'. I wanted, and expected, a top-of-the-line U-boat simulation, and that's not at all what they developed and presented.

But I also hope you'll understand why I'm disappointed and, even if you don't, or can't, agree with me as to why, at the very least agree that I deserve to feel the way I do.
If you could, a clarification on what you expected and wanted. Other than "substance" which you mentioned in a prior post.
As to the expressions of your opinions, i know i can speak for a lot of us on here, we respect opinions greatly, i know i do, in particular it is vital that for mature discussion to occur, wether it be here or out in the real world, that we should respect and acknowledge opinions at the very least, even if they are totally opposite to our own beliefs or opinions.
If they aren't being respected or at the least acknowledged, then we have a problem.
I think the crux of the threads meandering into off-topics and threads being closed down and what seems to be personal attacks towards other members is quiet frankly just a lack of respect.
Anyways, back on-topic, i look forward to your thoughts of SH 5 and what you wanted and expected. :salute:

[krashkart]

Hey!!:eek: First it's Frau Kaleun, now me! What a naughty boy, I'll see ya there mate!:03:

WooHoo! :har:

[robbo180265]

I do want to make another clarification or two, especially since this has seem to have wandered quite a bit from the topic.

SH5 could be utterly flawless and bug-free. Everything could work perfectly. I still wouldn't buy it.

One is, yes, I'm not happy with the permanent Internet connection requirement. But if that was the only fly in the ointment I'd live with it. Grouse under my breath at times, perhaps, but I'd deal.

The major reason I'm not going to buy it is because it's neither what I wanted nor expected, especially after having over four years of analyzing our requests and 'wish lists'. I wanted, and expected, a top-of-the-line U-boat simulation, and that's not at all what they developed and presented.

That's it in a nutshell. No DRM boycotting. No complaining about draconian anti-piracy protections. Just plain and simple disgust and disappointment.

From the sound of things quite a few of you enjoy SH5. I'm happy for you. Honestly, no sarcasm or irony intended. And I'm not implying, directly or otherwise, anything at all about your tastes or interests. That would be wrong of me.

But I also hope you'll understand why I'm disappointed and, even if you don't, or can't, agree with me as to why, at the very least agree that I deserve to feel the way I do.

I respect the way you feel, I do think that given time and of course interest SHV could be as good as SH3 (and I'm playing SH3 GWX3 at the moment to get my submarine fix).

I congratulate you on a well put together and reasoned thread - and to some extent I agree with you. There are definitely holes in SHV that need filling in my opinion (lack of variaty of targets, AI , the moral system and indeed the whole talking to the crew system) and I hope in time these will be modded or patched out.

When you do contact UBI to tell them how you feel - could I ask that you publish the adress here. There are a few that feel the same as you and I don't think it would hurt them to let UBI know their true feelings, I also would like to tell them exactly what I think of their customer support (or lack of)

All the best matey - I'll probably see you in the SH3 forums for the forseeable future lol

[Zedi]

I fail to understand why should I care about why some people don't wanna buy SH5 and why is this posted on the SH5 forum. I'm not Ubi and I don't care if there are people who like SH3 over SH5. If I start to post on SH3 forum about how obsolete I think SH3 and why I don't wanna install and play it anymore... I think it will be considered spamming or trolling, right?

[Fincuan]

Well why'd you read this then? I'ts not like the thread title tries to hide what's inside.

[robbo180265]

Well why'd you read this then? I'ts not like the thread title tries to hide what's inside.


Was wondering the same thing...

Also this is hardly the usual "SHV sux" type of thread either, methinks someone got out of the wrong side of the bed lol.:O:

[Zedi]

Well why'd you read this then? I'ts not like the thread title tries to hide what's inside.

I did not, only the thread title. I don't care about why these people don't wanna buy/play SH5, is just I fail to understand why these threads are accepted on SH5 forum. Ubi don't care about their customers, why should I care about those who don't want to play SH5?

[robbo180265]

I did not, only the thread title. I don't care about why these people don't wanna buy/play SH5, is just I fail to understand why these threads are accepted on SH5 forum. Ubi don't care about their customers, why should I care about those who don't want to play SH5?


Using your logic - why should we care about what you want? :O:

Seriously - the thread title gives the subject away "Why I've decided not to buy, or own, SH5 (and I hope Ubi reads this)"

This thread is not the usual 3 line "Sh5 sux, UBI sux" rant that we all hate, it turned into a really good discussion. I really don't see what your problem is apart from not taking the time to read it.

You clicked on the thread , read it , and you posted in it pushing it to the top of the forum.

[McBeck]

Life on Subsim is strange....one thread states that the moderators are too strict....another states that we are not :03:

[robbo180265]

Life on Subsim is strange....one thread states that the moderators are too strict....another states that we are not :03:

You guys do a very hard job very well. There is absolutley no-way that you can please all of us, but if you please the majority (as I think you do) and the owner then you are doing a great job:up:

[Takao]

Magnum,
Yet, you've posted twice in a thread you have not read, nor care about. Maybe I am missing something here.

Also,you could go on the SHIII board and talk about how obsolete SHIII is compared to SHV. However, I am sure SHIII players would mention several items to the contrary. Sure, it doesn't have the pretty graphics, but SHIII has the Type II, XI, and XXI, all mysteriously missing from SHV. The war does not arbitrarily end in 1943, you get to fight all the way through to 1945. Also, if my internet takes a dump, I can keep playing without interruption. They would also, correctly, point out that "Newer" does not mean "Better." I would mention that the best thing about SHIII is GWX 3.0, but SHV is to new for any "supermods" of its caliber.

[Bilge_Rat]

As the OP has clarified above, he has no opinion on SH5. He does not own the game, knows nothing about it and is not qualified to comment on that fine submarine simulation.

His only issue is with DRM, a position I believe we all share. However his post is about 3-4 months late and unlikely to have any influence on UBI since the SH series is hardly a priority for them.

If the OP really wants to have more of an impact, I would suggest he posts on the AC2 forum that he will not be buying AC2 because of DRM, that is likely to be more noticed by Ubi. :ping:

[Placoderm]

As the OP has clarified above, he has no opinion on SH5. He does not own the game, knows nothing about it and is not qualified to comment on that fine submarine simulation.

His only issue is with DRM, a position I believe we all share. However his post is about 3-4 months late and unlikely to have any influence on UBI since the SH series is hardly a priority for them.

If the OP really wants to have more of an impact, I would suggest he posts on the AC2 forum that he will not be buying AC2 because of DRM, that is likely to be more noticed by Ubi. :ping:

Actually, that is not correct Bilge_rat. The OP states very clearly that DRM is not his issue, but rather the substance of the game itself. I quote from his last post: "My bigger beef isn't DRM; it's substance. Instead of listening to all of us over these last four years they appear to have decided they know what we all want all on their own. C'mon Ubi! You could have looked at SubSim as a focus group for you. D'you know how much companies pay for focus groups?? And you had a huge one here, and all for free, yet you failed to avail yourself of that." And from the 1st post: "We wanted a simulation; you gave us an arcade game. We wanted a dynamic campaign; you end things in the middle of the war. We wanted the ability to control all aspects of our boat if we wished to do so; you don't even give us a compass, the ability to check our depth under keel, or even historic nav maps!"


The OP has made some great points regarding the shortfalls of SH5, and echoes the feelings of many people who are dissatisfied by the game.

---

As for Magnum, you must realize that this forum is for many users, not just you or me. There are still a lot of people who are on the fence about purchasing this game, and frequent forums to get customer opinions before purchasing. I, myself, do that quite often before purchasing something that I am unsure about. Those people may come here infrequently, or just once or twice...and just because you have seen a topic repeated or rehashed too often for your tastes does not necessarily mean that those visitors have. If all they see is praise, then they may make a poor purchasing decision in the same way that they would if all they saw were threads saying "UBI sux". This forum allows both positive as well as dissenting views, and is thus a trusted source of information. If you want to see a more positive thread about SH5, there are plently out there, including one that is right now at the top of the page called "Spread the Love (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168879)". Unfortunately, it is quite barren of actual praise right now, but that is not the OP's fault.

This thread is actually a good, civil discussion about some of the shortcomings of SH5. Schlechter pfennig has not said anything abusive, and truly appears to be a fan of submarine simulations...just not this one in the state it is in. He makes good points. Perhaps if you had actually read the posts in the thread instead of just spamming the thread with your disgust and anger, you would realize that.

If you disagree with his stance, or anything specific to what he has written, feel free to state your case.

Otherwise...


:hmmm:

[SteamWake]

Holy Mackrel ! 5 pages of meh ! :haha::har:

[schlechter pfennig]

If you could, a clarification on what you expected and wanted. Other than "substance" which you mentioned in a prior post.
As to the expressions of your opinions, i know i can speak for a lot of us on here, we respect opinions greatly, i know i do, in particular it is vital that for mature discussion to occur, wether it be here or out in the real world, that we should respect and acknowledge opinions at the very least, even if they are totally opposite to our own beliefs or opinions.
If they aren't being respected or at the least acknowledged, then we have a problem.
I think the crux of the threads meandering into off-topics and threads being closed down and what seems to be personal attacks towards other members is quiet frankly just a lack of respect.
Anyways, back on-topic, i look forward to your thoughts of SH 5 and what you wanted and expected. :salute:

Perhaps I was expecting too much with SH5. But I'll try and more fully explain what my expectations were, and why they were so.

To begin with, let me set some sort of benchmark. I'll be the first to admit that SHIII, in its 'vanilla' state, left quite a bit to be desired. On the other hand, however, in my opinion it broke a lot of new ground as a submarine simulation. So while I'm not happy with the state in which Ubisoft's support left it back in 2006, I do feel it set a bar in its genre.

Having said that, quite a lot of mods have been developed over those ensuing years, which have greatly improved and enhanced the vanilla version, spanning graphics, gameplay, realism and historical limitations and abilities. So let me establish a benchmark of sorts, one which anyone here can, should they choose to do so, can easily replicate.

First off, I run patched SHIII with GWX 3.0. GWX is one of several 'supermods' that have been developed (Danke Gott!) for SHIII. It is the one I'm most familiar with; however, in no way is it my intention to state or imply it's the best. I also run SH3 Commander, patched for GWX. I play with quite a lot of other mods, although by no means anywhere near as comprehensive as others do. Mostly that's due to the physical limitations of my machine, but it's also due to picking-and-choosing from the myriad, diverse mods available, and again I'm not endorsing anything particular or specific.

My current list of mods are:

GWX 3 Wilhemshafen,St Naz,Schluese and xtra ships V5
LifeBoats&Debris_v4
Wac Animated Sub Pens interior start for GWX
GWX - 16km Atmosphere
GWX - Integrated Orders
GWX - No Medals on Crew
New Uboat Guns 1.2
Urfischs_ModStrike_Beta1
Waterstream+Exhaust Combi V2.3 for GWX3
Tikigod's - Engine Order Telegraph (German)
Torpedo damage Final ver2.0
torpedo trail and wake fix
Depthcharge Shake v2.01
Aces' Combined SH3.SDL Files v2
Real Depth Charge
hydrophone depth charge
SH3-Fix_SN_2_Stock
Fix_UZO_R_stock
Q Ship mod GWX3.0
SH-5 Water for GWX 3.0 V0.9 Atlantic campaign (default)

Now, here we go . . .

First off, imagine starting out in your Type VIIB in 2nd Flotilla from Wilhelmshaven. As you leave your berth at a leisurely 4kt (gotta watch out for your wake, after all) you head towards the locks, as all around you cranes move. Once at the locks you patiently wait your turn, passing through the gates one at a time, until you head off to your assigned patrol area, following your guide as she escorts you out, showing you the safe path between the minefields and antisub nets, as overhead gulls wheel and cry, as fighter aircraft circle on patrol.

Any convoy escorts you may encounter are few and, although their crews may be highly motivated, their actual experience is abysmal, and their equipment not much better. They can (and will) take you out if you're not careful, but you can evade them with a little skill and patience. It's easy to rack up GRT in the early years, and returning early due to damage is very rare indeed . . . unless, that is, you get overly cocky.

And there is an enormous wealth of ships, both warships and merchants, as well as aircraft, awaiting you out there. Just navigating out from Wilhelmshaven reveals dozens of ships, small to large, some docked, others steaming to and from port.

Now let's look ahead a bit. December 1943 to be precise. 7th Flotilla out of St. Nazaire, in your trusty, brand-spanking new Type VIIC. Around you in the sub pen are the bright actinic flashes as arc welders repair and refit, while overhead gantries shift torpedoes and equipment about. You begin to pull out, following your outbound guide . . . then, about five minutes later come the wail of air raid sirens, quickly followed by shore and marine anti-aircraft batteries opening fire. Liberators pass overhead, dropping rack after rack of heavy bombs, while you hope and pray none come close.

And that's the easy part. For the Golf von Biskaya awaits you.

Navigating that is bad enough during the day, but at least you stand a chance of seeing incoming enemy aircraft hopefully in time to dive and evade. But it's death to traverse that stretch at night for, without warning, your boat is spotlight and illuminated by the Leigh lights of an incoming aircraft with your name on it.

And escorts which were clumsy and easily evaded in early 1940 are a thing of the past. They are out for blood, and if they get a whiff of you they aren't so easy to shake. Three of them remain behind, as the convoy you couldn't even engage sail off. Two of them relentless circle you, while the third sits at all stop a bit away . . . and just listens. Listens, and reports.

OK, now this is what I enjoy when I play SHIII / GWX 3.0. Now imagine all that, but with the substantially increased graphics of SH5. Now that's what I was expecting.

Some might call it 'eye-candy' and, to some degree it is. But there's no denying that superior, excellent graphics and effects can substantially increase the appearance, quality and enjoyment of a game.

However, I was also expecting a bit more from SH5, and so, in no particular order, here we go:

AI torpedo functioning: having a torpedo boat 1,500 meters away screaming in on your port beam should strike panic in you, especially if you see the incoming wake of fired torpedoes. Likewise, seeing a torpedo bomber skimming the waves and heading towards you should require a change in undies.

Realistic flooding, damage and repair times: you shouldn't be able to repair damaged bow or stern planes, nor damaged propellers, from inside your boat. Damage shouldn't always take mere minutes to repair. Having your flak guns trashed by a near-miss from a depth charge shouldn't take four minutes to repair. Any damage to the periscopes should require dockside repair. This is an area that required quite a bit fine-tuning.

Collisions: Having any ship ram you should be mortal, if not immediately fatal, especially if square abeam. Having a destroyer ram you and all that happens is you get pushed down and rolled about is, ahhh . . . you know.

Realistic and graphically-rich environmental and weather: A December gale in the North Atlantic should show huge, rolling swells, their tops shredded into white foam and spray, the water a cold, grim grey. Further north and you encounter snow rather than rain. And weather doesn't get 'stuck' into weeks-long rainstorms.

'Real' navigation: the ability to, should you desire, 'shoot the stars' and 'dead-reckon'. Or, if you select to use the waypoint-plot method, if the weather is nasty enough that you can't periodically check your course, you may find yourself hundreds of kilometers off course the first chance you get to recheck your position.

A revamped 'renown' system: There would be two values, one a cumulative total used to calculate promotions chances and ranks, and a secondary one used for 'upgrades'. The more successful a hunter you are, the better your chances at being promoted should be, and the faster they should be. And spending 'renown' for upgrades was silly. Far better to have every sub eventually receive upgrades as they became available . . . however, if you wanted to have a quiet little chat with your commanding officer and mention how you'd really, really like that new and improved radar warning device right now . . .

Improved crew handling: the ability to set a three-watch/day, and select who is in what watch.

Being able to walk bow to stern, and interact if you wished to do so with individual crew, keeping in mind that a Kapitänleutnant did not micromanage crew. He had junior, subordinate officers to do that. However, if you wished to personally man a flak or deck gun, or set up targeting solutions, or take personal, temporary charge of damage control, you could do that. Otherwise, if you commanded an officer to do something, they should do that all on their own, leaving you free to command.

How about a real manual? GWX put together a 644-page work of art. You'd think Ubi could put a little effort into documentation.

A dynamic campaign stretching pre-war to war's end, not a static "one-two, buckle my shoe, three-four, lock the door" one. You'd receive mission orders, usually going to a patrol area and remaining the one to two weeks usual stay there. Enroute you might get new orders, diverting you, for instance, to rendezvous with other (AI) U-boats to ambush a convoy . . . and with AI U-boats that are 'smart' enough to determine when to surface and when to submerge, are able to actually fire torpedoes, and 'smart' enough to coordinate efforts. Upon sighting a convoy and reporting it you might get orders to shadow it and hold off the attack until others arrive, or be ordered to attack without waiting. How about mine laying missions? Imagine being heavily damaged and being able to, once within range of port, being able to radio for an escort in and getting one? Or in the unhappy event you're battered and sinking, simply being able to surrender? Or (as had happened to me once), after managing to survive and evade destroyers, finding your boat is beyond hope? 4,000 miles from home and both diesels gone? The ability to abandon and scuttle, with some hope of perhaps being rescued and recovered?

You wanted to know what I expected. I tried to do my best. There are countless other little things --like when loading external torpedoes, only able to do so when at stop and in calm weather, and unable to dive when the torpedo is actually being taken inside and the loading hatch is open, and actually seeing that when you transfer it inside-- but, by far, the expectation that I miss the most is the absence of an ever-changing, non-predictable, dynamic campaign.

I know some of what I've mentioned above has already been, to some degree, incorporated into SHIV and SH5. I also agree that, given time, our hardworking modders will be able to transform (I hope, anyway) this 'diamond in the rough'. But it shouldn't be any sort of diamond in the rough, not after the opportunity to analyze and appraise four years worth of peoples' work, efforts and opinions here. And, worse, they seem to have totally ignored the desire to have a fluid, flexible dynamic campaign.

[Placoderm]

Perhaps I was expecting too much with SH5. But I'll try and more fully explain what my expectations were, and why they were so.

To begin with, let me set some sort of benchmark. I'll be the first to admit that SHIII, in its 'vanilla' state, left quite a bit to be desired. On the other hand, however, in my opinion it broke a lot of new ground as a submarine simulation. So while I'm not happy with the state in which Ubisoft's support left it back in 2006, I do feel it set a bar in its genre.

Having said that, quite a lot of mods have been developed over those ensuing years, which have greatly improved and enhanced the vanilla version, spanning graphics, gameplay, realism and historical limitations and abilities. So let me establish a benchmark of sorts, one which anyone here can, should they choose to do so, can easily replicate.

First off, I run patched SHIII with GWX 3.0. GWX is one of several 'supermods' that have been developed (Danke Gott!) for SHIII. It is the one I'm most familiar with; however, in no way is it my intention to state or imply it's the best. I also run SH3 Commander, patched for GWX. I play with quite a lot of other mods, although by no means anywhere near as comprehensive as others do. Mostly that's due to the physical limitations of my machine, but it's also due to picking-and-choosing from the myriad, diverse mods available, and again I'm not endorsing anything particular or specific.

My current list of mods are:

GWX 3 Wilhemshafen,St Naz,Schluese and xtra ships V5
LifeBoats&Debris_v4
Wac Animated Sub Pens interior start for GWX
GWX - 16km Atmosphere
GWX - Integrated Orders
GWX - No Medals on Crew
New Uboat Guns 1.2
Urfischs_ModStrike_Beta1
Waterstream+Exhaust Combi V2.3 for GWX3
Tikigod's - Engine Order Telegraph (German)
Torpedo damage Final ver2.0
torpedo trail and wake fix
Depthcharge Shake v2.01
Aces' Combined SH3.SDL Files v2
Real Depth Charge
hydrophone depth charge
SH3-Fix_SN_2_Stock
Fix_UZO_R_stock
Q Ship mod GWX3.0
SH-5 Water for GWX 3.0 V0.9 Atlantic campaign (default)

Now, here we go . . .

First off, imagine starting out in your Type VIIB in 2nd Flotilla from Wilhelmshaven. As you leave your berth at a leisurely 4kt (gotta watch out for your wake, after all) you head towards the locks, as all around you cranes move. Once at the locks you patiently wait your turn, passing through the gates one at a time, until you head off to your assigned patrol area, following your guide as she escorts you out, showing you the safe path between the minefields and antisub nets, as overhead gulls wheel and cry, as fighter aircraft circle on patrol.

Any convoy escorts you may encounter are few and, although their crews may be highly motivated, their actual experience is abysmal, and their equipment not much better. They can (and will) take you out if you're not careful, but you can evade them with a little skill and patience. It's easy to rack up GRT in the early years, and returning early due to damage is very rare indeed . . . unless, that is, you get overly cocky.

And there is an enormous wealth of ships, both warships and merchants, as well as aircraft, awaiting you out there. Just navigating out from Wilhelmshaven reveals dozens of ships, small to large, some docked, others steaming to and from port.

Now let's look ahead a bit. December 1943 to be precise. 7th Flotilla out of St. Nazaire, in your trusty, brand-spanking new Type VIIC. Around you in the sub pen are the bright actinic flashes as arc welders repair and refit, while overhead gantries shift torpedoes and equipment about. You begin to pull out, following your outbound guide . . . then, about five minutes later come the wail of air raid sirens, quickly followed by shore and marine anti-aircraft batteries opening fire. Liberators pass overhead, dropping rack after rack of heavy bombs, while you hope and pray none come close.

And that's the easy part. For the Golf von Biskaya awaits you.

Navigating that is bad enough during the day, but at least you stand a chance of seeing incoming enemy aircraft hopefully in time to dive and evade. But it's death to traverse that stretch at night for, without warning, your boat is spotlight and illuminated by the Leigh lights of an incoming aircraft with your name on it.

And escorts which were clumsy and easily evaded in early 1940 are a thing of the past. They are out for blood, and if they get a whiff of you they aren't so easy to shake. Three of them remain behind, as the convoy you couldn't even engage sail off. Two of them relentless circle you, while the third sits at all stop a bit away . . . and just listens. Listens, and reports.

OK, now this is what I enjoy when I play SHIII / GWX 3.0. Now imagine all that, but with the substantially increased graphics of SH5. Now that's what I was expecting.

Some might call it 'eye-candy' and, to some degree it is. But there's no denying that superior, excellent graphics and effects can substantially increase the appearance, quality and enjoyment of a game.

However, I was also expecting a bit more from SH5, and so, in no particular order, here we go:

AI torpedo functioning: having a torpedo boat 1,500 meters away screaming in on your port beam should strike panic in you, especially if you see the incoming wake of fired torpedoes. Likewise, seeing a torpedo bomber skimming the waves and heading towards you should require a change in undies.

Realistic flooding, damage and repair times: you shouldn't be able to repair damaged bow or stern planes, nor damaged propellers, from inside your boat. Damage shouldn't always take mere minutes to repair. Having your flak guns trashed by a near-miss from a depth charge shouldn't take four minutes to repair. Any damage to the periscopes should require dockside repair. This is an area that required quite a bit fine-tuning.

Collisions: Having any ship ram you should be mortal, if not immediately fatal, especially if square abeam. Having a destroyer ram you and all that happens is you get pushed down and rolled about is, ahhh . . . you know.

Realistic and graphically-rich environmental and weather: A December gale in the North Atlantic should show huge, rolling swells, their tops shredded into white foam and spray, the water a cold, grim grey. Further north and you encounter snow rather than rain. And weather doesn't get 'stuck' into weeks-long rainstorms.

'Real' navigation: the ability to, should you desire, 'shoot the stars' and 'dead-reckon'. Or, if you select to use the waypoint-plot method, if the weather is nasty enough that you can't periodically check your course, you may find yourself hundreds of kilometers off course the first chance you get to recheck your position.

A revamped 'renown' system: There would be two values, one a cumulative total used to calculate promotions chances and ranks, and a secondary one used for 'upgrades'. The more successful a hunter you are, the better your chances at being promoted should be, and the faster they should be. And spending 'renown' for upgrades was silly. Far better to have every sub eventually receive upgrades as they became available . . . however, if you wanted to have a quiet little chat with your commanding officer and mention how you'd really, really like that new and improved radar warning device right now . . .

Improved crew handling: the ability to set a three-watch/day, and select who is in what watch.

Being able to walk bow to stern, and interact if you wished to do so with individual crew, keeping in mind that a Kapitänleutnant did not micromanage crew. He had junior, subordinate officers to do that. However, if you wished to personally man a flak or deck gun, or set up targeting solutions, or take personal, temporary charge of damage control, you could do that. Otherwise, if you commanded an officer to do something, they should do that all on their own, leaving you free to command.

How about a real manual? GWX put together a 644-page work of art. You'd think Ubi could put a little effort into documentation.

A dynamic campaign stretching pre-war to war's end, not a static "one-two, buckle my shoe, three-four, lock the door" one. You'd receive mission orders, usually going to a patrol area and remaining the one to two weeks usual stay there. Enroute you might get new orders, diverting you, for instance, to rendezvous with other (AI) U-boats to ambush a convoy . . . and with AI U-boats that are 'smart' enough to determine when to surface and when to submerge, are able to actually fire torpedoes, and 'smart' enough to coordinate efforts. Upon sighting a convoy and reporting it you might get orders to shadow it and hold off the attack until others arrive, or be ordered to attack without waiting. How about mine laying missions? Imagine being heavily damaged and being able to, once within range of port, being able to radio for an escort in and getting one? Or in the unhappy event you're battered and sinking, simply being able to surrender? Or (as had happened to me once), after managing to survive and evade destroyers, finding your boat is beyond hope? 4,000 miles from home and both diesels gone? The ability to abandon and scuttle, with some hope of perhaps being rescued and recovered?

You wanted to know what I expected. I tried to do my best. There are countless other little things --like when loading external torpedoes, only able to do so when at stop and in calm weather, and unable to dive when the torpedo is actually being taken inside and the loading hatch is open, and actually seeing that when you transfer it inside-- but, by far, the expectation that I miss the most is the absence of an ever-changing, non-predictable, dynamic campaign.

I know some of what I've mentioned above has already been, to some degree, incorporated into SHIV and SH5. I also agree that, given time, our hardworking modders will be able to transform (I hope, anyway) this 'diamond in the rough'. But it shouldn't be any sort of diamond in the rough, not after the opportunity to analyze and appraise four years worth of peoples' work, efforts and opinions here. And, worse, they seem to have totally ignored the desire to have a fluid, flexible dynamic campaign.
:agree:

That could have made SH5 the game of the year...but it appears that Ubisoft was aiming instead for an extremely pretty arcade classic with little long-term replayability. I cannot help to think that it was a considered design decision to intentionally make SH5 tasty and attractive...but not fulfilling enough to fully satisfy. Perhaps it is a strategy to sell future downloadable content, but if so, it will likely prove to be a failed strategy.

What you descrive above would have been not only stunning, but a true evolutionary step for the genre...and none of it is beyond plausable with current PC resources and developer skill. It also could have likely been done faster, by building on what was already in place.


Well done!!

:salute:

[panthercules]

Been gone from Subsim for a while, but I've been lurking around for a few days trying to find some good info comparing SH5 to SH3 (as modded), to try to decide whether to open the SH5 box I just bought or to take it back. Despite the somewhat off-topic wanderings in the previous pages, I think this has been a good thread for my purposes.

schlechter pfennig's wishlist pretty much matches what I was hoping for, along with a few other things I was hoping they would work into the game, such as (in particular) having environmental factors such as weather (wind/rain direction) and time of day/phase of moon lighting conditions actually making a real difference in the sensor capabilities of the enemy ships, so that matching such conditions to historically appropriate tactics would actually make sense, and so night surface attacks would actually be possible in a reasonably historically accurate manner.

I can't tell for sure from what I've seen/read so far, but I get the strong impression that SH5 does not incorporate such improvements/factors - is that correct?

For me, the DRM mechanism is close to being a deal-killer, especially when coupled with what seems to be persisting problems with the saved game mechanism. I've struggled with this same type of misguided DRM with Rise of Flight since it launched last Summer, but at least there any given mission/patrol tends to last only about 30-45 minutes and even if there were a problem mid-patrol it didn't really mess up more than about that much play time. With the SH series, I tend to play a single patrol for many hours, and the thought of Internet hiccups screwing up my saved game situation on long patrols like that is pretty disconcerting. However, that alone would not keep me from giving SH5 a shot, because the RoF folks finally saw the light and introduced an off-line mode for their DRM version, and I'm hopeful that Ubi might do the same thing down the road with theirs.

Unfortunately, however, everything I've been able to find out about SH5 so far seems to confirm schlechter pfennig's outlook - whatever improved graphics and new crew interaction capabilities they may have added, it doesn't seem that they have addressed or fixed very many (if any) of the real "simulation" aspects that were deficient in SH3. Plus, from a "gameplay" perspective, they seem to have headed off in an entirely different and (to me) unwelcome direction - I think having some scripted missions and campaign options is fine (and if the simulation aspects were strong, maybe the more limited/scripted approach would be more tolerable), but the notion that they seem to have completely abandoned the dynamic, non-scripted career mode just seems like a huge step backward to me.

I can't even begin to total up the amount of time I allocated to playing (and modding and testing) both SH3 and SH4, and I had a blast doing it and do not regret any of that time spent. I would love to be able to do the same with SH5. I know it took several patches and a lot of work by the modders to make SH3 the great game it eventually became, but for me it was such a leap forward right out of the box (even with all the glitches and bugs) from the earlier sub sims that I was hooked from day 1. But from what I'm seeing so far it's really hard for me to drum up the enthusiasm for making the effort with this game.

I was hoping (for my decision-making purposes) when I saw this thread that someone would take a shot at talking schlechter pfennig out of his conclusion or at least refuting some of his points by extolling the virtues of what SH5 does right or better than SH3, but the silence on that front seems to be pretty deafening. If not in this thread, can somebody point me to some earlier threads I've probably missed where these sorts of comparisons are made, and perhaps some key reasons are given why someone who loved SH3 but wanted even more serious "sim-substance" should consider buying SH5 at this point?

[krashkart]

I fail to understand why should I care about why some people don't wanna buy SH5 and why is this posted on the SH5 forum. I'm not Ubi and I don't care if there are people who like SH3 over SH5. If I start to post on SH3 forum about how obsolete I think SH3 and why I don't wanna install and play it anymore... I think it will be considered spamming or trolling, right?

As a long time gamer I try to be more selective in where I put my money these days. I've been burned enough times with games that looked great on the box but only provided a fraction of what I'd paid for. With that in mind, I drop in to this forum from time to time to see how things are progressing with SH5. Based on the troubles that sprang up after its release I'm glad I decided to ignore the hype and wait. Otherwise I might have dropped $60 or so on something that looks to be about the same quality as an alpha-stage project from Sourceforge.

The anti-SH3 sentiment has already hit the SH3 forums, btw. :DL

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168811

[tonschk]

You can see the reason I already deleted :down: SH3 :down: and therefore I just play :up: Silent Hunter 5 :up: in my computer in the post number 27 of this thread


.

[panthercules]

You can see the reason I already deleted :down: SH3 :down: and therefore I just play :up: Silent Hunter 5 :up: in my computer in the post number 27 of this thread


.

OK - just so I understand your point - are you saying that it's because of the improved graphics in SH5, or because in SH5 they finally got rid of that annoying "Game Paused" text overlaid on your U-boat in SH3?


Of course, I assume that the graphics are better in SH5, as those screenshots illustrate. However, I'm really more interested in whether and how there might be actual gameplay/simulation authenticity improvements in SH5 compared to SH3/modded. Good graphics are important, but if graphics were all there was to it, I'd rather load up my Das Boot DVD and watch that than just watch my SH5 boat cruise along, as pretty as that might be.

[Zedi]

...There are still a lot of people who are on the fence about purchasing this game, and frequent forums to get customer opinions before purchasing. I, myself, do that quite often before purchasing something that I am unsure about. Those people may come here infrequently, or just once or twice...and just because you have seen a topic repeated or rehashed too often for your tastes does not necessarily mean that those visitors have. If all they see is praise, then they may make a poor purchasing decision in the same way that they would if all they saw were threads saying "UBI sux". ...



Oke, I tried to read the first post. But I had to stop after the first line:
First off, I need to make clear two things: one is that I don't own SH5, nor have I played it at all.

Placoderm, if I want to read and know more about a game before I buy it, I may ask the players oppinion, not those who don't own and play the game. Is just absurd. Posting wall-of-text comments about a game without own it or ever played it is usually prohibited, for example I'm sure that I will not be allowed to go on AC2 official forum and write a huge comment about why I will not buy the game and why in I think that AC2 suck. Period.

Also, last time I checked, we are not the official SH forum and we are not related in anyway to Ubi. So I think the OP is confused about his location:
OK Ubi, point number one: ...
OK Ubi, point number thow: ...
OK Ubi, please please please, I implore you, pay close attention to the following editorial.
That's right Ubi...


Yeah right .... *rolleyes*

[Feuer Frei!]

Oke, I tried to read the first post. But I had to stop after the first line:


Placoderm, if I want to read and know more about a game before I buy it, I may ask the players oppinion, not those who don't own and play the game. Is just absurd. Posting wall-of-text comments about a game without own it or ever played it is usually prohibited, for example I'm sure that I will not be allowed to go on AC2 official forum and write a huge comment about why I will not buy the game and why in I think that AC2 suck. Period.

Also, last time I checked, we are not the official SH forum and we are not related in anyway to Ubi. So I think the OP is confused about his location:


Yeah right .... *rolleyes*
You seem to have a major issue with this thread, and it's contents.
I think at the end of the day, we are all entitled to our opinions and frankly, if you (in general) don't like a person's posts (ie opinions) you have 2 choices:
1) Don't read and respond
2) Reply in a mature and respectful manner, acknowledging that the other person's opinion may not be alligned to yours but disagreeing in a mature way, not posting things like "rolleyes" and "But i had to stop after the first line".
Nothing wrong with disagreeing, however the manner in which we do it is important. :salute:
It may be, and i intone the word may, be prohibited on other forums to mention that you don't own a game but have opinions about it. Here? No, that's another reason why SubSim is a great place to come to.
We may not be the official unofficial Ubisoft SH series forum, however that is no reason to "diss" a poster's ideas, opinions and input about Silent Hunter games, wether they own the game or not.
The O.P. makes this clear in the thread title, which should really raise alarm bells for those who aren't interested in this type of opinion.
People who do enter the thread, are under absolutely no dissilusion in what they are about to read. Or so it would seem.
One last thing:
The O.P.'s objections to the game refreshingly did not post the usual "D**" rant, nor was it a Ubisoft s** rant, 10 points for that alone. :up:
Judging by the contents of the O.P.'s posts, they have certainly done some research.

[commandosolo2009]

I am one of the unfortunate to have wasted bucks on this trash. Why dont ubi ever learn from their mistakes??

And I know its Ubi Romania. SSDD for Hawx, which better be called HOAX, since playing Ace combat 6 on PS2 is much more rewarding than playing a cheap infringed knockoff..
Tom the cat with a fork to his belly and water gushing from every single hole..

[krashkart]

^^ Yikes! :o

Remind me not to get on your bad side. :hmmm:

[Feuer Frei!]

Is there any need for that? :nope:

[capt-jones]

:hmmm: is there any need for this post, if people aint buying it then who cares not me not ubi and probably half the members of this forum :yawn: if you have bought then you have a right to complain :stare: if you aint gonna buy it get over it and move on:dead:

[Zedi]

Ubis manager and CEO should be kidnapped, raped, fisted and got all their teeth extracted before being shot to the head for this piece of **** game...

I am one of the unfortunate to have wasted bucks on this trash. Why dont ubi ever learn from their mistakes??

And I know its Ubi Romania. SSDD for Hawx, which better be called HOAX, since playing Ace combat 6 on PS2 is much more rewarding than playing a cheap infringed knockoff..

I wish I had the guy in my scope by now.. I'd clip him into Tom the cat with a fork to his belly and water gushing from every single hole..

Whooaaaa.. :haha: :har:

Feuer Frei, can I respect this guy opinion? At least it is based on playin the game, not just bitching about something you dont play nor own. He is fully entitled for an opinion because he spent his money on the game, but I suppose his opinion will not count because of some bad language issues...

[Reece]

Ubis manager and CEO should be kidnapped, raped, fisted and got all their teeth extracted before being shot to the head for this piece of **** game...

I am one of the unfortunate to have wasted bucks on this trash. Why dont ubi ever learn from their mistakes??

And I know its Ubi Romania. SSDD for Hawx, which better be called HOAX, since playing Ace combat 6 on PS2 is much more rewarding than playing a cheap infringed knockoff..

I wish I had the guy in my scope by now.. I'd clip him into Tom the cat with a fork to his belly and water gushing from every single hole..I like a man who speaks his mind! doesn't beat around the bush!!:up:

[Feuer Frei!]

:hmmm: is there any need for this post
Certainly not with that sort of language!

Whooaaaa.. :haha: :har:

Feuer Frei, can I respect this guy opinion? At least it is based on playin the game, not just bitching about something you dont play nor own. He is fully entitled for an opinion because he spent his money on the game, but I suppose his opinion will not count because of some bad language issues...
Of course you can respect it, that's up to you.
And as to wether his post should count or not, i find his post very untasteful, to say the least.
There is no need for that sort of language.
Show some respect!
Furthermore, he points out his displeasure with the game, in disrespectful fashion, but yet, hypocritically posts a new(ish) thread asking for help :hmmm:
I don't have a problem with people not liking this game, but to use foul language, which mind you could be seen as a personal attack on someone, depending on which side you come from, is bad taste. :down:

[Moeceefus]

I bought it. I play it. I enjoy it. I have not played 3 or 4 since. First hand experience is the only way to formulate a valid opinion of a game. :yep:

[Kapitanleutnant]

First hand experience is the only way to formulate a valid opinion of anything. :yep:
Yes absolutely, first hand experience is the only way to formulate an opinion that torture, rape and murder are bad.
Try using your brain to think before you post every once in a while. You may be surprised at the results.

[Moeceefus]

Yes absolutely, first hand experience is the only way to formulate an opinion that torture, rape and murder are bad.
Try using your brain to think before you post every once in a while. You may be surprised at the results.


what the hell are you talking about?! way to cut out the other half of my post in an attempt to take it out of context. let me rephrase here, first hand expierience is the only way to formulate a valid opinion on a video game! better? please dont start with me on account of someone elses idiotic post. try using your brain next time if you have trouble distinguishing one post from another. you may save yourself from looking like an ass

[McBeck]

You can express your opinion, but keep it clean :shucks:

[BigBadVuk]

You can express your opinion, but keep it clean :shucks:

Hey the fork can be sterilised,the water boiled and Tomy the Cat will be washed and washed again :D
So it is clean!! :woot::har:

[Rockin Robbins]

Glad to see this thread near the top again. The casual visitor looking for information on whether or not they should buy SH5 needs to know that SH5 is fatally flawed and this is not the time to buy.

[The General]

Glad to see this thread near the top again. The casual visitor looking for information on whether or not they should buy SH5 needs to know that SH5 is fatally flawed and this is not the time to buy.This kind of 'thinking' will see to it that there is no SH6. Sh5 is a very enjoyable experienced with Mods, Patch 1.2 is about to come out and things are improving all the time. Telling people not to buy it is not the way to go.

[robbo180265]

Glad to see this thread near the top again. The casual visitor looking for information on whether or not they should buy SH5 needs to know that SH5 is fatally flawed and this is not the time to buy.

First off - with the exception of a few troll posts this has been a very constructive thread IMO.

Fatally flawed implies that SH5 will never ever be a good game and I personally don't think that the case. I presume also, that to have come to that conclusion means that you don't own the game.

I own SH5 , but play SH3 GWX.

I see SH5 as being very simlar to vanilla SH3, kind of an arcady sub simulator. In my opinion it could be modded into a newer, better looking version of SH3 - alas the backlash against the D*M and also the perception that its "broken" , bug ridden" , unplayable, fatally flawed, may mean that it never gets the chance, which in my opinion would be a shame.

I think the devs went the wrong way with the crew management feature and the campaign, but other than that it really rocks to be able to walk the full length of a U boat. There are also lots of other nice touches throughout the game. If you can get SH5 at a Knock down price I heartilly recommend you do.

The reason I don't play SH5 at the moment is the same reason I don't play vanilla SH3, you see I want a U Boat simulator it really is that simple. If SH5 gets modded the way SH3 did then it's bye bye SH3 for good.

Only time will tell I guess.

[Feuer Frei!]

I thought he was being sarcastic :hmmm:
Maybe not...

[ddrgn]

Glad to see this thread near the top again. The casual visitor looking for information on whether or not they should buy SH5 needs to know that SH5 is fatally flawed and this is not the time to buy.

Another reason the game is lacking in support, even the site Brass has been knocking the game, even before release. Personally I see a divide between fleet boat and u-boat here. Maybe its just me but the old crowd out of SH4 overall seems to bash the game.

I have logged over a 100 hours of MP time in this "fatally flawed" game...

Sorry RR, I get the feeling you don't even have SH5....... So why comment on on it?

[mookiemookie]

Glad to see this thread near the top again. The casual visitor looking for information on whether or not they should buy SH5 needs to know that SH5 is fatally flawed and this is not the time to buy.

As usual, you're offering your own (uninformed) personal opinion and passing it off as fact.

[CapnScurvy]

I've had the June PCGamer issue sitting on my nightstand for a week now, unopened, until I noticed today the front cover states a "Silent Hunter 5 review" enclosed. I tore into the cellophane and turned to page 68, dropping my eyes down to the game rating area labeled "Verdict" and found (not surprisingly) a 55 out of 100 for the overall score for the game!! A 55!! That's on par with such block buster games as "Who wants to be a Millionaire, 3rd Edition" at 55, or "Beavis and Butt-Head: Bunghole in One" a 53. PCGamer's rating system states a game rating between 50-59% is "Merely Okay", "Very ordinary games. They're not completely worthless, but you can definitely find numerous better choices".

The specific review starts "No point in sugarcoating it: SH5, Ubisoft Romania's third crack at the Silent Hunter submarine sim franchise, is a dud"

A DUD !!

As in, "What the heck is wrong with these torpedos"? DUD!!

I've not bought SH5, nor do I plan to. I'll not pay for the right to become frustrated over the numerous problems this franchise has brought to the submarine simulation community. I remember looking back on SH4's first release and remember scratching my head over an American sub simulation using only the metric system for the games measurements!?! It's like, What kind of game company puts out a product that misses so badly a fundamental issue as to what kind of measurements did the American sailor use? And by the way, we don't call it, nor use, "the Imperial system". That's a "European thing", not ours!!!! Anyway, I digress!!

The point is this company has sold us a boat load of crap, again! The only folks that benefit are those counting the money. I paid for the U-Boat Missions Add-on, to put the "Nazi's in the Pacific" (sounds like the 1940's Tarzan movie I remember when the Nazi's showed up deep in the Congo looking for gold, putting Cheata and Jane in peril!!) but I won't do it again.
In my opinion, the only way to push the genre forward is to let this franchise dry up on the vine. Either Ubisoft realises it's folly and makes a new start or they fade away allowing a different company to take the submarine simulation genre down a different path. I really don't care which way the wind blows this ship, I just know the port of "Ubisoft' need not be entered again as it stands now.

[ddrgn]

I've had the June PCGamer issue sitting on my nightstand for a week now, unopened, until I noticed today the front cover states a "Silent Hunter 5 review" enclosed. I tore into the cellophane and turned to page 68, dropping my eyes down to the game rating area labeled "Verdict" and found (not surprisingly) a 55 out of 100 for the overall score for the game!! A 55!! That's on par with such block buster games as "Who wants to be a Millionaire, 3rd Edition" at 55, or "Beavis and Butt-Head: Bunghole in One" a 53. PCGamer's rating system states a game rating between 50-59% is "Merely Okay", "Very ordinary games. They're not completely worthless, but you can definitely find numerous better choices".

The specific review starts "No point in sugarcoating it: SH5, Ubisoft Romania's third crack at the Silent Hunter submarine sim franchise, is a dud"

A DUD !!

As in, "What the heck is wrong with these torpedos"? DUD!!

I've not bought SH5, nor do I plan to. I'll not pay for the right to become frustrated over the numerous problems this franchise has brought to the submarine simulation community. I remember looking back on SH4's first release and remember scratching my head over an American sub simulation using only the metric system for the games measurements!?! It's like, What kind of game company puts out a product that misses so badly a fundamental issue as to what kind of measurements did the American sailor use? And by the way, we don't call it, nor use, "the Imperial system". That's a "European thing", not ours!!!! Anyway, I digress!!

The point is this company has sold us a boat load of crap, again! The only folks that benefit are those counting the money. I paid for the U-Boat Missions Add-on, to put the "Nazi's in the Pacific" (sounds like the 1940's Tarzan movie I remember when the Nazi's showed up deep in the Congo looking for gold, putting Cheata and Jane in peril!!) but I won't do it again.
In my opinion, the only way to push the genre forward is to let this franchise dry up on the vine. Either Ubisoft realises it's folly and makes a new start or they fade away allowing a different company to take the submarine simulation genre down a different path. I really don't care which way the wind blows this ship, I just know the port of "Ubisoft' need not be entered again as it stands now.

Out of the box I give SH3 a 6/10 and SH4 a 5/10.... Pretty much garbage.

I would have used the DVD's for throwing at concrete walls if all that was, was what SH3 and SH4 were ever going to be out of the box.

SH4 reviews back in the day were bought by Ubisoft, Ubisoft didn't buy any reviews for SH5 this time around.....

SH5 out of the box I give a 5/10, but we are all so much smarter than this right? We know the game needs the modding touch, this is nothing new. 9/10!

[Bilge_Rat]

Sorry RR, I get the feeling you don't even have SH5....... So why comment on on it?

He does not, he just has an axe to grind. At least he did not launch into another speech about SH5 being an affront to the U.S. Constitution...:ping:

...

Rant mode on:

All of us subsimmers who have played SH3, SH4 and gave SH5 an objective chance realize SH5 is a significant improvement in the franchise. Yes, it has bugs and some unfinished aspects, but modders have already provided workarounds for the worst bugs and SH5 is perfectly playable. In MP and single player missions, it is a blast.

Everyone here now conveniently forgets all the bugs that plagued SH3 upon release: escorts firing on each other, ships capsizing or sinking for no reason, entire convoys being frozen in the Atlantic beacause you saved to close to them, DDs sinking after ramming your boat, your officers being exhausted mid-patrol because there were no enough slots in the crew management page to properly rest them, etc., etc.,

The difference of course, was that back then, everyone was willing to give SH3 a chance because it was a significant advancement in subsims. Most posters were interested in seeing how you could improve the sim, not destroy it.

Now on the SH5 forum, you have a group of posters who do not own the game, do not play it and want to destroy it to further their own anti-DRM agenda, irrespective of any objective facts you may present regarding the improvements and qualities of the game.

I spent some time recently on the Ubi AC2 forum to see what the atmosphere was like there and imagine my surprise when I saw that most threads were about the game and not about DRM..:o. These kids have a very mature attitude and show quite clearly that most of the rabid anti-DRM crowd here are just a collection of cranky old codgers.

Rant mode off.

:|\\

[robbo180265]

Personally it's really starting to tick me off.

They have no interest in the game - they only come into this forum to inflate their already over inflated egos (and I'm not talking about the OP here either) stir up trouble and leave.

They have nothing constructive to say about the game - just the usual "DRM sux" and "SH5 sux" mantra over and over again.

You can see how interested they are - they don't even reply to us because they are already on another forum talking about their favourite version of SH.

Trolling in the truest sense of the word..

[ddrgn]

Well said my friends. New players should read between the lines here, base their decisions on whether to purchase the game on posts by people actually playing it.

[John Channing]

These kids have a very mature attitude and show quite clearly that most of the rabid anti-DRM crowd here are just a collection of cranky old codgers.

Rant mode off.

:|\\

Hey! I resent that. Not all cranky old codgers are anti-DRM.

Some of us just don't give a crap.




and get offa my lawn


JCC

[robbo180265]

Hey! I resent that. Not all cranky old codgers are anti-DRM.

Some of us just don't give a crap.




and get offa my lawn


JCC

:har: I can never stay angry for long when you post:DL

[krashkart]

You can see how interested they are - they don't even reply to us because they are already on another forum talking about their favourite version of SH.

Trolling in the truest sense of the word..


*crawls out from under his bridge*


My favorite SH was probably SH3. The hospital level was downright creepy with all those zombie nurses clumsily firing at me with their magnums. :D


*swipes a sheep from robbo, bites a leg off and trudges back under the bridge*



:lurk:


Dang! Channing's was better. :har:

[gord96]

i purchased the game yesterday and was pleasantly surprised that most of the negative posts on this forum are exaggerations. i had a good time with the game last night. sure it has bugs and shame on UBI for not testing it more, but as always a few mods and it runs very nice! of course people can say they wont support UBI because of all the bugs and i can see their point. But I like sub sims, and really there is no other option. I have played SH3 w/GWX to death. Already I see way more potential in SHV. A few patches and some more mods and it will be awesome.

Anyways, back to the open seas...:arrgh!:

[schlechter pfennig]

I understand why some of you are upset that someone who doesn't own the game and hasn't played it is rendering an opinion about the game. I would like to point out that if 18 out of 20 people whose opinions I respect have a negative opinion about something, be it a steak, car, or game, I don't see any reason to buy said steak just to prove that, yes indeed, it tastes and smells like liver.

I'd also like to point out the following, taken from reviews written by SimHQ . . . who have played the game.

SH3: The Heart and Soul of Silent Hunter III is the 'Dynamic Random Campaign'. To quote the manual, "The game uses a dynamic, random campaign engine based on historical reality. Every time you play, you can have a unique career"

The Silent Hunter III world is a replica of the one of 1939 to 1945. The shipping lanes and the volume and type of traffic will reflect that of the war and changes over the years. Countries will historically be neutral, your enemy or your ally or all the above as the war progresses.

I came to Silent Hunter III with hope and modest expectations. Silent Hunter III has exceeded my expectations in so many ways with the stunning graphics, a crew, a good sailing model, a Dynamic Random Campaign based upon real shipping lanes and convoy routes, AI that responds to your presence and changeable weather.

A finished Silent Hunter III will be a very strong contender for "Sim of the Year", if not "Game of the Year" and would be the undisputed king of U-Boat / submarine simulations.

SH5: The campaign structure is fairly simple. You start out as a young U-boat commander in 1939 and you work your way through to 1943, gradually upgrading your boat. Once you get done with the initial campaign around the British Isles, you can select different segments of the campaign based upon your peaked interest, and upon the success you have in the initial setup. It eventually culminates in the disaster that was 1943, when the Allies finally started getting the upper hand on the U-boat threat.

But tempered with these achievements are some serious problems that badly need to be resolved. The game is currently a buggy nightmare in some critical areas. Certainly there are bugs with all games, and some are forgivable, but some of the bugs in Silent Hunter 5 are near showstoppers. There are already some mods released that will correct some of the deficiencies in the game, but the fact that the second patch — the one that is supposed to correct many of these problems — is delayed once again means players that bought the game in good faith are still waiting for fixes that shouldn’t have been in the gold release.

Once players can get past these issues, there is a potential for a lot of fun with this game. There is a lot of good here and I honestly think that if Silent Hunter 5 follows the series history and is patched adequately, this will be a winner. Sadly, the fact is for right now, I cannot recommend Silent Hunter 5: Battle of the Atlantic in its current condition.

Now this is a professional reviewer. If I was indecicive about buying SH5 and decided not to do so based upon the review, would I be naive and gullible? Then why should I value my fellow subsimmers' opinions any less? In fact, I value theirs' more so.

I am tremendously impressed by the graphics examples I've seen. Heck, some of them appear to be almost photo quality! Makes me drool, in fact, and I'm greatly envious.

But one of the most, if not the most, recognized attraction of SHIII, was the random, dynamic campaign, and I can't help but feel that, somewhere along the line, Ubisoft missed the boat (no pun intended).

[Kapitanleutnant]

what the hell are you talking about?! way to cut out the other half of my post in an attempt to take it out of context. let me rephrase here, first hand expierience is the only way to formulate a valid opinion on a video game! better?
No, not better. I don't need to buy a copy of any Derek Smart game to know that it's going to be ****ing terrible. I can rely on many hundreds of professional and user-created reviews and previews, I can look it up on metacritic, I can ask my friends.
Similarly: I did not need to buy SH5 to know that it would be a bug-ridden pile of **** - SH3 and SH4 already set that standard, and lo - I was right.

You see, Humans have an ability to learn based on past experiences, and the unique ability to use their imagination to predict (with some accuracy) the outcome of future events based on this experience. It's a survival instinct that separates us from the Animals.

Well, it separates me from the animals. I'm not too sure about you, since you're only capable of learning through direct experience.

FIRE IS HOT!?

[Feuer Frei!]

@schlechter pfennig,
good post(s), i totally see where you are coming from...
glad that the "speed bumps" ( trolls) have subsided and we can continue what has so far been a good thread.

[robbo180265]

*crawls out from under his bridge*


My favorite SH was probably SH3. The hospital level was downright creepy with all those zombie nurses clumsily firing at me with their magnums. :D


*swipes a sheep from robbo, bites a leg off and trudges back under the bridge*



:lurk:


Dang! Channing's was better. :har:

And you know I didn't mean you either lol

(Loved Silent Hill BTW)

[robbo180265]

@schlechter pfennig,

This is a quote from Tom Coefield the editor of SimHq and the person who wrote the review.


If they patch it, and if they do something about the DRM, and once the game is heavily modded then I might just do a re-review of the title. This is a game that could be absolutely outstanding, actually fantastic because the base is there for an outstanding game. Just like SHIII and IV, this is a game that shipped incomplete but unlike SHIII or IV this game has some serious detractions that hurt the game significantly. Luckily a lot of it can be fixed.

You can read the whole post here:

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1381928&postcount=12

Isn't this what we've been saying all along?

[John Channing]

But one of the most, if not the most, recognized attraction of SHIII, was the random, dynamic campaign, and I can't help but feel that, somewhere along the line, Ubisoft missed the boat (no pun intended).

This is an almost classic example of why reviews, while not unimportant, should never be the sole criteria when judging a game. In other words, why it is important to have actually played the game to understand.

Far be it from me to put words in Tom's mouth but what he was describing is the structure of the campaign, not the actual day-by-day playing of the campaign.

The SH5 campaign system is much more dynamic and random than Sh3 or SH4. Unlike it's predecessors, when you set up shop in a particular area the merchants don't just keep coming and coming. In the future they will change their routing to avoid your more successful patrol areas.

Unlike SH3 and SH4 when you sink a particular well known ship (ie The King George), 10 more of them don't show up in future patrols. Once they are gone, they are gone.

The campaign play is much more random than any of the other Silent Hunters. Add to that that your actions have now have actual consequences and you have a much better game.

What people are focussing on is the structure (ie mission objectives and tonnage requirements) that are added on top of the game. What isn't mentioned is that these are not required. Go anywhere you want, sink anything you want and the campaign will progress. It's just that it will progress differently that it would have if you did hit your objectives.

This type of misinterpertation is common but it is also the exact reason why people who have played the game get so frustrated by people who have not but insist on talking about things that they do no understand based on a review that either didn't get what was going on or, more likely, that based it's assumptions on other reviews before they even looked at the game (and I am definitely NOT talking about Tom's review here).

You want an indepth review from someone who knows what they are talking about and spent the time to understand what was going on? Read Neal's. Then if you still don't want to purchase the game, you will be making an informed decision.

JCC

[krashkart]

And you know I didn't mean you either lol

(Loved Silent Hill BTW)

:yep:

http://img.alibaba.com/photo/108962382/canned_ham.jpg_200x200.jpg

[Bilge_Rat]

I understand why some of you are upset that someone who doesn't own the game and hasn't played it is rendering an opinion about the game. I would like to point out that if 18 out of 20 people whose opinions I respect have a negative opinion about something, be it a steak, car, or game, I don't see any reason to buy said steak just to prove that, yes indeed, it tastes and smells like liver.

I'd also like to point out the following, taken from reviews written by SimHQ . . . who have played the game.

SH3: The Heart and Soul of Silent Hunter III is the 'Dynamic Random Campaign'. To quote the manual, "The game uses a dynamic, random campaign engine based on historical reality. Every time you play, you can have a unique career"

The Silent Hunter III world is a replica of the one of 1939 to 1945. The shipping lanes and the volume and type of traffic will reflect that of the war and changes over the years. Countries will historically be neutral, your enemy or your ally or all the above as the war progresses.

I came to Silent Hunter III with hope and modest expectations. Silent Hunter III has exceeded my expectations in so many ways with the stunning graphics, a crew, a good sailing model, a Dynamic Random Campaign based upon real shipping lanes and convoy routes, AI that responds to your presence and changeable weather.

A finished Silent Hunter III will be a very strong contender for "Sim of the Year", if not "Game of the Year" and would be the undisputed king of U-Boat / submarine simulations.

SH5: The campaign structure is fairly simple. You start out as a young U-boat commander in 1939 and you work your way through to 1943, gradually upgrading your boat. Once you get done with the initial campaign around the British Isles, you can select different segments of the campaign based upon your peaked interest, and upon the success you have in the initial setup. It eventually culminates in the disaster that was 1943, when the Allies finally started getting the upper hand on the U-boat threat.

But tempered with these achievements are some serious problems that badly need to be resolved. The game is currently a buggy nightmare in some critical areas. Certainly there are bugs with all games, and some are forgivable, but some of the bugs in Silent Hunter 5 are near showstoppers. There are already some mods released that will correct some of the deficiencies in the game, but the fact that the second patch — the one that is supposed to correct many of these problems — is delayed once again means players that bought the game in good faith are still waiting for fixes that shouldn’t have been in the gold release.

Once players can get past these issues, there is a potential for a lot of fun with this game. There is a lot of good here and I honestly think that if Silent Hunter 5 follows the series history and is patched adequately, this will be a winner. Sadly, the fact is for right now, I cannot recommend Silent Hunter 5: Battle of the Atlantic in its current condition.

Now this is a professional reviewer. If I was indecicive about buying SH5 and decided not to do so based upon the review, would I be naive and gullible? Then why should I value my fellow subsimmers' opinions any less? In fact, I value theirs' more so.

I am tremendously impressed by the graphics examples I've seen. Heck, some of them appear to be almost photo quality! Makes me drool, in fact, and I'm greatly envious.

But one of the most, if not the most, recognized attraction of SHIII, was the random, dynamic campaign, and I can't help but feel that, somewhere along the line, Ubisoft missed the boat (no pun intended).

Again this just proves my point, you have no interest in learning the truth about SH5, you are just interested in advancing your preconceived notions about the game.

[Bilge_Rat]

i purchased the game yesterday and was pleasantly surprised that most of the negative posts on this forum are exaggerations. i had a good time with the game last night. sure it has bugs and shame on UBI for not testing it more, but as always a few mods and it runs very nice! of course people can say they wont support UBI because of all the bugs and i can see their point. But I like sub sims, and really there is no other option. I have played SH3 w/GWX to death. Already I see way more potential in SHV. A few patches and some more mods and it will be awesome.

Anyways, back to the open seas...:arrgh!:

enjoy, it will only get better. For a real challenge, try the "Pedestal" single mission. :ping:

[Moeceefus]

No, not better. I don't need to buy a copy of any Derek Smart game to know that it's going to be ****ing terrible. I can rely on many hundreds of professional and user-created reviews and previews, I can look it up on metacritic, I can ask my friends.
Similarly: I did not need to buy SH5 to know that it would be a bug-ridden pile of **** - SH3 and SH4 already set that standard, and lo - I was right.

You see, Humans have an ability to learn based on past experiences, and the unique ability to use their imagination to predict (with some accuracy) the outcome of future events based on this experience. It's a survival instinct that separates us from the Animals.

Well, it separates me from the animals. I'm not too sure about you, since you're only capable of learning through direct experience.

FIRE IS HOT!?


you cant do any better can you? we are talking about a video game here. are you aware of this? it has nothing to do with the survival of a species or fire being hot. what foolish comparisons. i've played many a game, watched many a movie that recieved glowing reviews and i have hated them. when it comes to entertainment, people have to decide for themselves personally based on thier own likes and dislikes. if you need to rely on others to tell you what to enjoy or not, then you are an even bigger idiot than your posts already indicate. all of you people coming here to post trash about a game you dont own and have never played have deeper issues besides being misinformed drones. anyways, troll and flame on till its locked i guess, if thats what floats your boat. :nope:

[John Channing]

Gentlemen, let's watch the language and personal attacks, ok?

JCC

[MILLANDSON]

you cant do any better can you? we are talking about a video game here. are you aware of this? it has nothing to do with the survival of a species or fire being hot. what foolish comparisons. i've played many a game, watched many a movie that recieved glowing reviews and i have hated them. when it comes to entertainment, people have to decide for themselves personally based on thier own likes and dislikes. if you need to rely on others to tell you what to enjoy or not, then you are an even bigger idiot than your posts already indicate. all of you people coming here to post trash about a game you dont own and have never played have deeper issues besides being misinformed drones. anyways, troll and flame on till its locked i guess, if thats what floats your boat. :nope:

I totally agree. Whilst, yes, reviews and comments from friends and the like can be useful in coming to a decision, I, like you, have loved movies that others have hated (the Transformers movies for one, I thought they were brilliant), and hated movies others have loved. Everyone has their own specific tastes and preferences, and using solely the tastes and preferences of another person, no matter how objective they attempt to be, is flawed, in my opinion.

The only way to know if you truly like something or not is to try it for yourself. There is no substitute for it.

[schlechter pfennig]

you cant do any better can you? we are talking about a video game here. are you aware of this? it has nothing to do with the survival of a species or fire being hot. what foolish comparisons. i've played many a game, watched many a movie that recieved glowing reviews and i have hated them. when it comes to entertainment, people have to decide for themselves personally based on thier own likes and dislikes. if you need to rely on others to tell you what to enjoy or not, then you are an even bigger idiot than your posts already indicate. all of you people coming here to post trash about a game you dont own and have never played have deeper issues besides being misinformed drones. anyways, troll and flame on till its locked i guess, if thats what floats your boat. :nope:


Actually, you're talking about a 'video game'. I've been consistently referring to a promised simulation that falls short of my expectations. And I haven't been depending upon anyone to inform me as to whether or not I'd enjoy SH5. I've been using their comments, critiques and criticisms to determine just what said 'product' delivers.

And the fact that you feel a need to refer to me as 'a misinformed drone' and to insinuate that I've been 'posting trash' speaks more volumes about your character than it does the rationale behind my original post.

As to the majority of the other respondents here, I've deeply appreciated your comments, critiques, suggestions and advice. :salute:

[shmall]

First off, I need to make clear two things: one is that I don't own SH5, nor have I played it at all.

.

Well I stopped reading after reading that............

[robbo180265]

Actually, you're talking about a 'video game'. I've been consistently referring to a promised simulation that falls short of my expectations. And I haven't been depending upon anyone to inform me as to whether or not I'd enjoy SH5. I've been using their comments, critiques and criticisms to determine just what said 'product' delivers.

And the fact that you feel a need to refer to me as 'a misinformed drone' and to insinuate that I've been 'posting trash' speaks more volumes about your character than it does the rationale behind my original post.

As to the majority of the other respondents here, I've deeply appreciated your comments, critiques, suggestions and advice. :salute:

And I'm interested in any comments you may have about my post?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1381990&postcount=111

Mainly because you chose that review:03:

[Brag]

Actually, you're talking about a 'video game'. I've been consistently referring to a promised simulation that falls short of my expectations. And I haven't been depending upon anyone to inform me as to whether or not I'd enjoy SH5. I've been using their comments, critiques and criticisms to determine just what said 'product' delivers.

And the fact that you feel a need to refer to me as 'a misinformed drone' and to insinuate that I've been 'posting trash' speaks more volumes about your character than it does the rationale behind my original post.

As to the majority of the other respondents here, I've deeply appreciated your comments, critiques, suggestions and advice. :salute:

I wholy agree and support your comments. Unfortunately, some newcomers have not yet learned the etiquette of these forums. Give them a break, they are yet to learn how to act as an officer and a gentleman, which is the standard for Subsim . :salute:

[robbo180265]

I wholy agree and support your comments. Unfortunately, some newcomers have not yet learned the etiquette of these forums. Give them a break, they are yet to learn how to act as an officer and a gentleman, which is the standard for Subsim . :salute:

Hmmm:hmmm:

[schlechter pfennig]

And I'm interested in any comments you may have about my post?

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1381990&postcount=111

Mainly because you chose that review:03:

I'd be happy to do so. Before I do, however, I'd like to make a small example.

How many people do you think will be buying the 2010 Lexus GX 460 SUV? You know, the SUV that Consumer Reports judges a "Don't Buy; Safety Risk"? In fact, they are urging consumers not to buy the GX 460 until the problem has been fixed.

Not very fair don't you think? I mean, after all, shouldn't everyone have a chance to own one and decide for themselves if, indeed, it's a safety risk and, yes, does in fact have a tendency to roll over? Not very fair to take someone else's word about that, is it?

What do I think of your post? That it pretty much sums up how I feel.

If they patch it, and if they do something about the DRM, and once the game is heavily modded . . .

This is a game that could be absolutely outstanding, actually fantastic because the base is there for an outstanding game. Just like SHIII and IV, this is a game that shipped incomplete but unlike SHIII or IV this game has some serious detractions that hurt the game significantly.


(italics mine)

I appreciate our modders here more than words can say. They do incredible work and often seem taken for granted. But I expected a complete, (reasonably) finished simulation. I say reasonably because only someone detached from reality could conceivably expect every bug to be discovered, no matter how hard the developers searched for them.

I also expected, and anticipated, a U-boat simulation a quantum leap higher than its predecessor, SHIII. And when it comes to graphics, it certainly does. It just seems to have some very serious flaws.

However, after reading no few of the posts here, I'll keep watch on how things develop. Ubi might surprise me after all. Stranger things have happened. Most certainly the modders here will be doing their dead-level best to improve things.

[Moeceefus]

Actually, you're talking about a 'video game'. I've been consistently referring to a promised simulation that falls short of my expectations. And I haven't been depending upon anyone to inform me as to whether or not I'd enjoy SH5. I've been using their comments, critiques and criticisms to determine just what said 'product' delivers.

And the fact that you feel a need to refer to me as 'a misinformed drone' and to insinuate that I've been 'posting trash' speaks more volumes about your character than it does the rationale behind my original post.

As to the majority of the other respondents here, I've deeply appreciated your comments, critiques, suggestions and advice. :salute:



ok, since you brought it up, lets take a look at your op in a shorter summarized form shall we.

in order
- i dont own and i dont plan on owning nor have i even played sh5
- i need a new computer to run this
- drm is the devil
- i wanted sh3 on steroids
- we shouldn't have to install mods to fix it. ubi should've learned by now


nothing new here at all. so while you defend your post and speak to its originality and fine points, mostly everyone else here sees it for what it is i'm sure. most of us post here on the sh5 forum because we own and play sh5. why do you post here on the sh5 forum?

[Brag]

[QUOTE=Moeceefus;


nothing new here at all. so while you defend your post and speak to its originality and fine points, mostly everyone else here sees it for what it is i'm sure. most of us post here on the sh5 forum because we own and play sh5. why do you post here on the sh5 forum?[/QUOTE]

Because it concerns SH5 regardless whether you own it or not :har::har::har::har:

Besides, you don't own it, you just get access to UBI servers which authorize you to use the software stored on your PC. :D

[robbo180265]

I appreciate our modders here more than words can say. They do incredible work and often seem taken for granted. But I expected a complete, (reasonably) finished simulation. I say reasonably because only someone detached from reality could conceivably expect every bug to be discovered, no matter how hard the developers searched for them.

I also expected, and anticipated, a U-boat simulation a quantum leap higher than its predecessor, SHIII. And when it comes to graphics, it certainly does. It just seems to have some very serious flaws.

However, after reading no few of the posts here, I'll keep watch on how things develop. Ubi might surprise me after all. Stranger things have happened. Most certainly the modders here will be doing their dead-level best to improve things.

To be honest I really think that your expectations are way too high and that's why I asked you to comment.

The game you described as your "ideal" subsim I'll be honest I loved, but now you be honest - apart from us here on subsim who would actually buy that? (I'm thinking Steal Beasts here)

You see for one thing they would have to charge £100+ for the amount of time that would go into developing a sim like that. I don't reckon many casual gamers would be interested.

What they have done is make a game in a simlar vein to SH3 , as I said earlier an arcady submarine game that can be modded into a proper simulation. I for one am happy about that.

@Moeceefus

He brought it up in the SH5 forum because its a discussion about SH5. I think you are letting the trolls that have stuck their oars in get to you a little matey. Nothing that schlechter pfennig has said has been out of order IMO, a little blinkered perhaps but not completely out of order.

[ddrgn]

Because it concerns SH5 regardless whether you own it or not :har::har::har::har:

Besides, you don't own it, you just get access to UBI servers which authorize you to use the software stored on your PC. :D

Your just jealous SH5 looks sooooo much better than SH4 and your rig won't run it!

Other than that your posts, your rants, your wasted time, means nothing. You don't have the game, so you cannot comment on its performance....

Go back general topics until you can afford a rig. I can help you with setting up mods when you get better machine!

Take care!

[robbo180265]

Besides, you don't own it, you just get access to UBI servers which authorize you to use the software stored on your PC. :D

I wholy agree and support your comments. Unfortunately, some newcomers have not yet learned the etiquette of these forums. Give them a break, they are yet to learn how to act as an officer and a gentleman, which is the standard for Subsim . :salute:

:nope:

And I'm gonna keep quoting that bottom quote each time you troll Brag!

[Moeceefus]

@Moeceefus

"He brought it up in the SH5 forum because its a discussion about SH5. I think you are letting the trolls that have stuck their oars in get to you a little matey. Nothing that schlechter pfennig has said has been out of order IMO, a little blinkered perhaps but not completely out of order."


this is true and i apologize.

[Brag]

The attack was expected. Excellent opportunity to put accents on poster mentalities. Let them hang for everyone to see. I seldom respond to attacks. Thank you, gentlemen! :DL

[Moeceefus]

Besides, you don't own it, you just get access to UBI servers which authorize you to use the software stored on your PC. :D



i have no doubt that if ubi ever drops sh5 from thier servers that they will patch it out as they have stated. if you can point me in a direction where this hasn't been the case(besides an mmo) i will be happy to don the foil hat with you

[robbo180265]

The attack was expected. Excellent opportunity to put accents on poster mentalities. Let them hang for everyone to see. I seldom respond to attacks. Thank you, gentlemen! :DL

Also a fairly typical Troll response - not me , it's you lot.

I used to respect you..

[Feuer Frei!]

Geeze Louise, cut the guy (schlechter pfennig) some slack.
It's an opinion for goodness sake, sure he doesn't own the game... so what?
He's made some valid observations of the game, which i happen to agree with, and, i'm a game owner.
Big deal, move on.
Neeeext!

[robbo180265]

Geeze Louise, cut the guy (schlechter pfennig) some slack.
It's an opinion for goodness sake, sure he doesn't own the game... so what?
He's made some valid observations of the game, which i happen to agree with, and, i'm a game owner.
Big deal, move on.
Neeeext!

As I stated my beef isn't with him. His posts have been both articulate and intelligent

It's the usual one line unfunny jokes from others I find tiresome.

[Feuer Frei!]

As I stated my beef isn't with him. His posts have been both articulate and intelligent

It's the usual one line unfunny jokes from others I find tiresome.
I know Robbo180265, just the ignorant posts of "he doesn't own the game so he shouldn't post anything" stuff is what i'm talking about.

[Sammi79]

you don't own it, you just get access to UBI servers which authorize you to use the software stored on your PC. :D

Well, I think Brag has a good point here. I'm not paying for software unless you actually sell me the software you know? If it's permission that you are selling well it should be way cheaper, say $10 or £5 that would be reasonable. They do tell you that a permanent internet connection is required in order to play the game, but when do they tell you that whilst you thought you were buying a piece of software, that actually you are not and they are going to keep it? Is that before or after the sale?

I understand the software producers wanting to protect their creations, It's a real shame that Ubisoft has decided that this is the best way of doing it, but we only have the pirates to blame. The graphics look great and I'm sure the patches+modders will turn this into the best (albeit the only contemporary) subsim around in the end, and eventually the price will drop to a reasonable level IMO for what they are actually selling (permission to use their software) and at that time I will buy it.

[Feuer Frei!]

On a lighter note:
@ schlechter pfennig, i like your forum name :DL
How did you come up with that one?

[ddrgn]

Notice how these posts bring out the online Jesus's....

Learn to communicate,be nice, mom to son lectures etc.....

Come on, Brag deserves every bit of this....

He is some spill over from the DRM controversy, he lives and breathes for moments like this.... and the "holier than thou", subsimmers come out of the woodwork top defend him. What about the right to defend a perfectly perfect game that got caught in the spotlight that was DRM.

Brag will waste more of our time reading/responding to his posts than the rest of us waiting for DRM to load...

[Moeceefus]

Well, I think Brag has a good point here. I'm not paying for software unless you actually sell me the software you know? If it's permission that you are selling well it should be way cheaper, say $10 or £5 that would be reasonable. They do tell you that a permanent internet connection is required in order to play the game, but when do they tell you that whilst you thought you were buying a piece of software, that actually you are not and they are going to keep it? Is that before or after the sale?

I understand the software producers wanting to protect their creations, It's a real shame that Ubisoft has decided that this is the best way of doing it, but we only have the pirates to blame. The graphics look great and I'm sure the patches+modders will turn this into the best (albeit the only contemporary) subsim around in the end, and eventually the price will drop to a reasonable level IMO for what they are actually selling (permission to use their software) and at that time I will buy it.



actually if you look at the eula for any piece of software you will find you dont actually own anything. you have merely purchased a liscense to use said software. besides, why do people think ubi or any company would just up and drop the drm without patching it? has this been the norm? i think a move like that would doom any company and dont see the slightest threat of it happening

[robbo180265]

Notice how these posts bring out the online Jesus's....

Learn to communicate,be nice, mom to son lectures etc.....

Come on, Brag deserves every bit of this....

He is some spill over from the DRM controversy, he lives and breathes for moments like this.... and the "holier than thou", subsimmers come out of the woodwork top defend him. What about the right to defend a perfectly perfect game that got caught in the spotlight that was DRM.

Brag will waste more of our time reading/responding to his posts than the rest of us waiting for DRM to load...

Yeah you are right - shouldn't let him get to me:salute:

[schlechter pfennig]

On a lighter note:
@ schlechter pfennig, i like your forum name :DL
How did you come up with that one?

Well, I thought the connotation behind 'bad penny' was, ah . . . rather auspicious for a U-boat commander, what with a bad penny always turning up no matter what. :03:

[Sammi79]

@Moeceefus

Is that true? to be honest I haven't attempted to read any of those EULA agreements for decades :oops: more fool me I guess. Well I take it back then, UBI aren't doing anything different than anyone else in that case. Shutting up now.

[Feuer Frei!]

Well, I thought the connotation behind 'bad penny' was, ah . . . rather auspicious for a U-boat commander, what with a bad penny always turning up no matter what. :03:
Well done! :up:

[robbo180265]

Well, I thought the connotation behind 'bad penny' was, ah . . . rather auspicious for a U-boat commander, what with a bad penny always turning up no matter what. :03:

What a cool name - nice one matey:up:

[Bilge_Rat]

Unfortunately, some newcomers have not yet learned the etiquette of these forums. Give them a break, they are yet to learn how to act as an officer and a gentleman, which is the standard for Subsim . :salute:


that is actually funny coming from you...:salute:

[Takeda Shingen]

http://www.forks.ca/squirrel-gray.jpg

Ask the old hats what this means.

The Management

[mookiemookie]

http://www.forks.ca/squirrel-gray.jpg

Ask the old hats what this means.

The Management

That's your warning, boys.

http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51VD5YM3NFL.jpg

[ddrgn]

http://www.forks.ca/squirrel-gray.jpg

Ask the old hats what this means.

The Management

I am sorry, is this the best you can do?....

Why not make a super thread for all the hater comments, something you guys can actually keep updated. Keep our forum a little cleaner, so people coming for information can find how to play SH5, where to find mods, updates about the game they are "playing". Instead of finding all this crap that you guys are letting continue here.

I believe everyone has an opinion and I certainly don't promote censoring or closing threads.So with all the admins intent on making this place the shining example of how internet etiquette should be, instead of the mess that that you have let this place become, maybe show a little bit of support for the game and the players. Update the MOD and stickied threads, keep the forums clean for the new guys/gals.

Check my statistics, I am usually, (before SH5) a quiet reserved guy. Lately I am annoyed at how much you guys have let this place slide. So I am not gonna sit here and let people that do not even own the game rant about how crap it is, I don't care if my egg shell dance will get harder, I don't care which person I piss off. I am defending a fine piece of software, which will surpass what SH3 ever was in no time..

Don't mistake yourselves here, this is a battle and if you come over to this side of the forum, from the peaceful general topics and introduce yourself threads, I am sorry but you will see pissed off and annoyed people speaking out of turn and spiting each other. This is the fallout from the DRM issue, that is all it is... Don't be confused on that one either DRM is here to stay so it is a dead issue....

But, I will not let a few negative threads be the end all and tell all to this game. If you post negative about the game, back it up with feedback and let some of us have a crack at fixing it before "returning" your copy to best buy. If you post negatively and you can't back it up, expect players enjoying the game to let you know your wrong....

Let us players have what the SH4 players had, a chance to make this a great game with the support of a fine community and an even greater forum. Let us have that at least.

Maybe the old hats have gotten a little too old for this kind of work. no? yes?

[IanC]

The attack was expected. Excellent opportunity to put accents on poster mentalities. Let them hang for everyone to see. I seldom respond to attacks. Thank you, gentlemen! :DL

Exactly. When a poster comes along all "in yo face" throwing the insults around, and acting tough, the best reply is just to let their post hang for all to see. :yep:

[NefariousKoel]

I fail to see why anyone should have to purchase a game in order to post valid concerns about it here.

Yet some are pushing just that, and flaming away. :shifty:

[kylania]

I fail to see why anyone should have to purchase a game in order to post valid concerns about it here.

Because they don't. They post the same tired, lame rants about DRM and Ubisoft and how SH lost it's way and how anyone that bought the game is weak and stupid and how the game sucks compared to how awesome TMO or GWX or whatever their favorite previous flavor of SH was and how it's lost all it's appeal and anyone that bought it got what they deserve and hopefully Silent Hunter will die now and be resurrected by some gracious game company that will Do The Right Thing™ and how they haven't bought the game and won't ever buy it.

I think I covered all their points... Some of these people you feel are "posting valid concerns" have done NOTHING but troll since before the game even came out. Brag has yet to post anything in the Silent Hunter 5 forum that wasn't an insult against owners or the same exhausted DRM rant for example. Pure and simple trolling. It doesn't help the forum at all and sure isn't the behavior of an Officer nor a Gentleman. It's all childish. Just read this thread...

[SabreHawk]

I fail to see why anyone should have to purchase a game in order to post valid concerns about it here.

Yet some are pushing just that, and flaming away. :shifty:

Hmmm, well if I had never ate pork, how could I comment on how much I hate it and will never buy or eat it?

[MILLANDSON]

Well, I think Brag has a good point here. I'm not paying for software unless you actually sell me the software you know? If it's permission that you are selling well it should be way cheaper, say $10 or £5 that would be reasonable. They do tell you that a permanent internet connection is required in order to play the game, but when do they tell you that whilst you thought you were buying a piece of software, that actually you are not and they are going to keep it? Is that before or after the sale?

Just to point out, you do realise that the whole "permission that you are selling" is all software developers have been doing for about 15 years or so, right?

If you actually read the ToU/EULA, which are contractually binding upon you (as it is stated to be required for you to read it and agree to it before you install the game, and failing to read it but pressing "Agree/OK" is still you agreeing to a contract, as reading said contract isn't required), in 99.99% of games it will state that you merely own a licence to use the game, which can, in fact, be revoked at any time the developers/publishers see fit by a variety of means. All you own is the disk which happens to hold the data, they still own all the data on it.

The only thing that Ubisoft has done is taking it to the next level.

So... no offence intended, but the quoted part of your post is moot, since that applies in almost all circumstances involving the "selling" of any and all professionally developed software on the market, unless otherwise stated.

[krashkart]

It's all childish. Just read this thread...

That's not 100% accurate, I've read plenty of posts that have been articulated in a more constructive manner. I'm not bashing you, just reminding you to pull the binoculars away and look at the bigger picture again. :)

[Placoderm]

Hmmm, well if I had never ate pork, how could I comment on how much I hate it and will never buy or eat it?


Well, realistically you could smell the pork and determine it had a funky odor, you could see the pork and observe the odd color, you could hear others tell you that they did not like pork and why they felt that you were better off not trying it, you could read a book telling you about the risks of eating pork and the parasites it contained, and you could even observe others reactions to eating pork. Any of the above clues should allow a reasonable person to form an opinion about their desire to eat pork. As such, once an opinion has been formed, it is also reasonable for that same person to be qualified to comment. Whether or not those comments will be in agreement with someone who loves pork and eats pork all the time, is not important...as it is just one persons opinion verses another. One person formed his opinion by tasting pork, and one formed his opinion by learning about pork.

The OP made some highly accurate comments for someone who has not owned the game, and thos comments were close enough to reality to mirror my own experiences in playing the game, as well as the experiences of many others. I am assuming as such that he did his dutiful research to have been so close to the mark.




(and by the way, I hate escargot, I will not eat escargot, and although I have never eaten escargot I guarantee you that if I ever do I will hurl chunks all over the table. That is MY opinion...and one that I have formed very strongly having never tasted escargo. Maybe I am missing out on something really good...but I'm not gonna risk vomiting on my dining partners just to find out. Is my opinion invalid?)




:salute:

[Westbroek]

Oh, man, your opinion is totally valid...But escargot is SO good! You won't hurl, I promise, try it! And SH5 with mods is just as good. I tasted that, too.
:salute:

[Sammi79]

So... no offence intended, but the quoted part of your post is moot, since that applies in almost all circumstances involving the "selling" of any and all professionally developed software on the market, unless otherwise stated.

Yes, No offence taken, I'm sorry, I already refuted my post with embarrasment :oops::oops::oops: see post 143. It's just the whole digital rights stuff gets my mind doing backwards summersaults though - I have the data on a disc, the disc is mine but the data on it isn't? err... logically that doesn't make a great deal of sense at least not to me. And yes, I am very guilty about just clicking the 'I Agree' buttons on these installers.

Grrrr there I go again, :damn:. I may have had one too many beers tonight.

I am honestly dismayed by the fact that software companies are FORCED to act in this way because of pirates, but as you say they have taken it to the next level, that is the way it is and quite obviously is the way it will continue for now. I even caved in and tried to buy it online just now unfortunately my bank won't allow the payment to go through (they are scared about fraud and that is a good thing) I do want to try it for myself though, I just hope I don't end up kicking myself over it.

It's quite a gamble as far as I can tell, SH4 with all the mods is a very complete simulation (I use that term loosely) although there are some obvious flaws, you can play both sides in all peroids with lots of subtypes etc.. fully dynamic campaigns and graphically I think it's still good, especially with the environmental mod upgrades. SH5 sounds very limited in comparison and like a lot of people here I am primarily interested in the simulation aspect. I want it to be aiming for realism, and this does not appear to be the case. Also I work away from home for 6 months a year and stay in accomodation that rarely has internet access. In SH4 if someone could destabilse the deckguns, finish off the interiors of the boats (that is a huge amount of work I know) tweak some other minor things I would be completely satisfied with it. SH5 would never enter my mind. Ah well, here's to wishin for the impossible. :cool:

[TteFAboB]

The best review is the disinterested gameplay video review that aims at just showing the game and not selling the game or making a movie out of it.

It's just a short step away from a demo, and if you want to take it one step beyond then there exist these days a very thorough type of gameplay video called "Let's Play". Watching a good, commented, "Let's Play" series is nearly as good as playing the game itself.

You can find many good ones here: http://www.letsplayarchive.com/

Unfortunately there doesn't seem to be any Let's Play at all (good or bad) for Silent Hunter 5 anywhere on the internet, though there are some gameplay videos here and there.

Volunteers?

[IanC]

It's not about not knowing what something tastes like. That analogy is all wrong. It's knowing about all the problems, plain and simple. Don't need to own the game to know about those. Don't need to own the game to feel disappointed either.

[krashkart]

Posting some thoughts right quick and then I'll be off to the evil propagandist lair of SH3 again. :DL

I've read various arguments that "the modders will fix the game" (paraphrase). I know in some cases that was with regards to waiting for the patch. I just hope it doesn't become the fulcrum of how SH5 evolves as a simulation, nor the end-all be-all of popular expectations. Yes, modders can do a lot of things with their talents, but they don't have access to the most important part of SH5's functionality: the code.

Although I've not played it yet, I may look into Silent Hunter 5 later on as a possible addition to my entertainment suite. The time just isn't right, I think, for a complex endeavor such as SH5 to have been released. From the sounds of it, it still needs a lot of work done to it. I would much rather wait a couple more years for the major kinks to be worked out before deciding to put money on it.

If there is anything to be gained from this thread, the OP and the rest of us who have voiced our concerns must do more than simply post here at Subsim. If we want the companies to know that we want better quality out of an initial release, we must tell them directly. If we want Ubisoft to know that they have lost our customer confidence, we must tell them directly.

[tonschk]

i purchased the game yesterday and was pleasantly surprised that most of the negative posts on this forum are exaggerations. i had a good time with the game last night. sure it has bugs and shame on UBI for not testing it more, but as always a few mods and it runs very nice! of course people can say they wont support UBI because of all the bugs and i can see their point. But I like sub sims, and really there is no other option. I have played SH3 w/GWX to death. Already I see way more potential in SHV. A few patches and some more mods and it will be awesome.

Anyways, back to the open seas...:arrgh!:

I Agree with You :yeah: , I see way more potential in SH5


http://img401.imageshack.us/img401/3351/ggggyyyextra.png (http://img401.imageshack.us/i/ggggyyyextra.png/)

[doomlordis]

Officially the most boring pointless thread i have ever read.

[Adriatico]

schlechter pfennig...

I agree with your post (even more after fact that crowd is playing "offline" AC2 and Settlers... and that only "bad name" saved SH5 from the same fate...)

BUT

be aware that: most of people that think or feel the same way as you - are not participating (posting) any more here... what is OK and normal... but it means that: you will hit the wall of "SH5 approach" fanboys every time you open your mouth...

Just a friendly advice... and congratulations for a nice post!

[Feuer Frei!]

Officially the most boring pointless thread i have ever read.

All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

[Diopos]

All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others.

Yeahp! But you don't know that until said opinions are expressed!

So, as long as forum rules (and, I might add, basic "manners") are respected everyone is entitled to expressing his opinion.

[robbo180265]

schlechter pfennig...

I agree with your post (even more after fact that crowd is playing "offline" AC2 and Settlers... and that only "bad name" saved SH5 from the same fate...)

BUT

be aware that: most of people that think or feel the same way as you - are not participating (posting) any more here... what is OK and normal... but it means that: you will hit the wall of "SH5 approach" fanboys every time you open your mouth...

Just a friendly advice... and congratulations for a nice post!

I think that you and the others are rather missing the point.

I for one have enjoyed most of this discussion and I have no problem with schlechter pfennig's posts at all. In fact if you read back through the thread I don't think anyone has attacked schlechter pfennig for his views.


On the whole - this was a good discussion with some good ideas put forward.
Trouble is that once again a troll (who has no interest in either the game or this forum) was alowed to come into the debate and start a flame war - and yes I'm happy for the posts to hang their for all to see, anyone who reads the whole thread will easily see the trolling for what it was.

I am sick and tired of threads in this forum being hijacked by the same trolls who have their own agenda , which has nothing to do with either this forum or the game.

And it seems that others feel the same way too.

[krashkart]

Trouble is that once again a troll (who has no interest in either the game or this forum) was alowed to come into the debate and start a flame war - and yes I'm happy for the posts to hang their for all to see, anyone who reads the whole thread will easily see the trolling for what it was.

I am sick and tired of threads in this forum being hijacked by the same trolls who have their own agenda , which has nothing to do with either this forum or the game.

And it seems that others feel the same way too.


Well, let it go for now and we'll see how the thread progresses from here. It's far from hijacked as long as we keep in line with the original post.

[robbo180265]

Well, let it go for now and we'll see how the thread progresses from here. It's far from hijacked as long as we keep in line with the original post.

Agreed :up:

[Feuer Frei!]

Yeahp! But you don't know that until said opinions are expressed!

So, as long as forum rules (and, I might add, basic "manners") are respected everyone is entitled to expressing his opinion.
That's something i've never shunned, respecting opinions, however the "contents" of some opinions leave me a little dubious as to the quality of them.
Indeed some are better not expressed at all. As to basic manners being respected, some don't.

[ulysses]

the permanent internet connection required is disgusting....a real shame. unfotunateley i've already bought SH5, but i will never play it !!! i will sell the box and i will talk trash words on Ubisoft with all my friends.
it's unbelivable !!!
i will neve ever buy another game from tahta software house.
i loved the sh series very much. my favourite sim.not anymore

[thyro]

Trouble is that once again a troll (who has no interest in either the game or this forum) was alowed to come into the debate and start a flame war - and yes I'm happy for the posts to hang their for all to see, anyone who reads the whole thread will easily see the trolling for what it was.

I am sick and tired of threads in this forum being hijacked by the same trolls who have their own agenda , which has nothing to do with either this forum or the game.

And it seems that others feel the same way too.

Indeed I do feel you are trolling again. Not happy with a thread/post simply don't read and skip it altogether. Otherwise you could getbetter live doing something useful for change.

No har feelings but was necessary to be said.

Beside SH5 has good potential but still is long away to be finished and not everyone can play it simply because of the only online requirement. Therefore other posters are welcome to post if even venting frustration like you somethimes do. So defining someone you dislike as troll, remeber you/others that think like you aren't much better trolls either. Cheers

[SabreHawk]

It's not about not knowing what something tastes like. That analogy is all wrong. It's knowing about all the problems, plain and simple. Don't need to own the game to know about those. Don't need to own the game to feel disappointed either.

Hehe, yeah maybe that's what I should have said, that I can't really comment on how pork tastes.
But we now sound like Joules and Vincent at the resturaunt having breakfast, Joules saying he doesn't eat pork cause it's a filthy animal, Vincent saying yeah but porkchops but taste gooooood.:O:
Joules is basing his not eating pork on what he knows or has heard of pigs, not on actually knowing how it tastes, or how good it may be for him.

[Bilge_Rat]

The most objective and pertinent post in this entire thread is the one from gord96:

i purchased the game yesterday and was pleasantly surprised that most of the negative posts on this forum are exaggerations. i had a good time with the game last night. sure it has bugs and shame on UBI for not testing it more, but as always a few mods and it runs very nice! of course people can say they wont support UBI because of all the bugs and i can see their point. But I like sub sims, and really there is no other option. I have played SH3 w/GWX to death. Already I see way more potential in SHV. A few patches and some more mods and it will be awesome.

Anyways, back to the open seas...:arrgh!:

..the rest is, as usual, mostly mindless posturing..

[John Channing]

OK... could everyone just pretend that they got the last word in and then either post on topic or let it die a peaceful death?

Thanks

JCC

[IanC]

Hehe, yeah maybe that's what I should have said, that I can't really comment on how pork tastes.
But we now sound like Joules and Vincent at the resturaunt having breakfast, Joules saying he doesn't eat pork cause it's a filthy animal, Vincent saying yeah but porkchops but taste gooooood.:O:
Joules is basing his not eating pork on what he knows or has heard of pigs, not on actually knowing how it tastes, or how good it may be for him.

Oh cool, do we get to analyse why Jules doesn't eat pork! Naww... would be off topic. :lol:

[aergistal]

There should be a balance between security and accessibility. When security gets in the way of proper use then there's a problem. The idea of permanent connectivity while playing sounds pretty wrong. They could at least revalidated after a few days because temporary connection problems do arise.

The DRM will only get in the way of legal users since the pirates have probably released a crack by now. There is always a workaround and there is no such thing as perfect security yet (not even the hardware keys, like the USB dongles mentioned in the first post).

While the DRM could be annoying, the reasons I would not buy SH5 for now is the lack of proper testing and the bug reports I've seen around. So I will wait for the gold release.

[ddrgn]

IN the case of SH5, DRM has worked. Without going into further detail DRM was successful. I have also had the game since Feb 28/2010 and have only experienced a one hour period where connecting was a problem. As a paying customer I have not been annoyed/mad/depressed over the DRM with my copy of SH5. Others that don't even own the game are more depressed and angry than me LOL....

Mind you I have new device called a cable modem, and I moved my computer inside, it was in the barn before. Oh and haven't been able to show off my elite convoy skills to chicks on flights to Paris yet... Will let you know how the DRM works out there too...

[aergistal]

IN the case of SH5, DRM has worked. Without going into further detail DRM was successful[...]

Please do get into further details, because the guys docked at some [edit: not-to-be-ever-named site] say it wasn't.

[Stronghold]

I only asking myself when this post won't be contributed anymore. As far as I've seen till now, it's like making a tender and oily massage to a wooden foot ... besides that, it takes the same routine that SH5 forum has taken since the time game was released on the market: alienating the members of subsim one from another.

[mookiemookie]

Please do get into further details...

You're new here, so you may have missed the rules:

We do NOT allow discussion or even mention of warez, abandonware, peer-to-peer game swapping, game cracks, illegal download sites, or illegal file-sharing.

[IanC]

IN the case of SH5, DRM has worked. Without going into further detail DRM was successful.

:haha: :har:

[Garion]

The main reason I have not bought SH5 is the DRM, I live in rural Scotland and my internets consists of a man standing on the roof of my house waving flags:damn:.

I cannot therfore comment on the gameplay, bugs or other failings in the game.

I can however come to an informed 'to buy or not to buy' descion based on what people have posted here and on other forums (the ones that have set out rationaly their gripes or praises). Their experiences both good and bad, have helped me to come to the descion to hold off on purchasing.

I don't have to stick my hand in a fire to know that I will get burnt.

As for EULA's, these are 'After Sales' contracts and in the UK and I daresay most of Europe they are 'null and void'. For them to be legally binding they would have to be presented in a form that could be read prior to sale. I have returned games to the store several times and have always recieved my money back (I am an old fart and the manager of my local Game store used to shudder when I entered the shop:))

We also have the right to sell on our copy of a game when we are done with it. It is my opinion that the DRM has been implimented to kill the second hand market and that is intself a breach of UK Consumer Law.

Now I know consumer protection laws differ in their effectivenes across the globe, so maybe the EULA's are binding in some members countries.

As for Subsims being a niche market, that is true, but there must come a time when to say Enough is Enough. I would rather the genre died for a while than buy into ever decreasing functions and content. But thats just my opinion.

Teh Internets is a great platform for rants and raves, it brings out the down right rude in some and text is very limited way to express a point, there being no body language to go along with it. Lets face you only know who a formum member actualy is if you meet then in real life.

right I'll get my coat:)

Garion
AKA Jevhaddah

[aergistal]

You're new here, so you may have missed the rules:
We do NOT allow discussion or even mention of warez, abandonware, peer-to-peer game swapping, game cracks, illegal download sites, or illegal file-sharing.

And you have missed the point. Software piracy is a reality, it doesn't go away when you close your eyes nor does it cease to exists if you don't mention it for a while. And when pirates have it easier than legal users, then we have a problem.

I will edit my post to remove any reference. If you have further notifications please do use a private message.

[mookiemookie]

And you have missed the point. Software piracy is a reality, it doesn't go away when you close your eyes nor does it cease to exists if you don't mention it for a while. And when pirates have it easier than legal users, then we have a problem.

I will edit my post to remove any reference. If you have further notifications please do use a private message.

I'm sorry if you feel chastised, but those are the site rules.

[robbo180265]

Indeed I do feel you are trolling again. Not happy with a thread/post simply don't read and skip it altogether. Otherwise you could getbetter live doing something useful for change.

No har feelings but was necessary to be said.

Beside SH5 has good potential but still is long away to be finished and not everyone can play it simply because of the only online requirement. Therefore other posters are welcome to post if even venting frustration like you somethimes do. So defining someone you dislike as troll, remeber you/others that think like you aren't much better trolls either. Cheers

I'm assuming that you've not actually read this thread. Had you done you would have seen my input into it was not trolling at all. In fact I was part of the discussion.

Perhaps you should read the whole thread now and see what you think;)

[schlechter pfennig]

I'm not sure how this has wandered back into the DRM arena again. It's never been my intention to state that I'd decided neither to purchase nor own SH5 because of DRM. That's not to say I'm happy with how Ubisoft has chosen to implement that, because I'm not. But if that was my only 'beef' about SH5, I'd be playing it as we speak and, in fact, would never have posted at all.

The general 'pro' consensus I seem to be seeing is (and please excuse my paraphrasing here) that, yes, SH5 does have a few warts and hiccups, but that once the next patch is released and once our modders have a chance to sink their teeth into things, SH5 will excel.

You know what? I agree. I only have to compare stock SHIII to what is available now to see that happening.

But here's the thing. Look at it from the other side of the window. Ubisoft has released a majorly flawed product with the (apparant) expectation that our community will provide the necessary overall to their product to bring it up to its potential. Eh?

Now since the only PC game I truly play is SHIII (my flight sims --Red Baron II, WWII Fighters and Janes F-18 are more now-and-again playtime for me) I honestly cannot answer the following question: how many other PC simulations are released half-finished, and dependant upon modders to complete them?

And our modders will be crippled here just as they were with SHIII, for we are unable to modify anything dealing with the source code.

The choice I had was to purchase, or take a 'wait-and-see' position, or to not purchase, a half-finished product, one that took a major departure from what I had been expecting (which, granted, may not mean a lot; after all, SHIII was a major departure from prior games) and wasn't at all complete.

I don't feel that supporting, or subsidizing, shoddy work is helpful, especially when it supports the attitude of "Ah, who cares, the community will finish it for us.".

And yes, I agree that submarine simulations are a niche market. But by my last count there's slightly more than 49,000 registered members here alone. I have no idea how many casual guests drop in who are also interested in this 'niche'. I realize that not all of us are strictly subsimmers, but that still seems to be a pretty substantial client base to me.

Owning a boat is a 'niche market' too; just ask anyone that's had to buy marine-grade hardware. A five-cent screw from Home Depot is prolly a $5 one for a boat! And as I had stated before, I would have been willing to pay at least US$200 for a properly-working and finished SH5. I'm not sure how many else here would be willing to cough up that much dough, but I suspect that no few of us 'nichers' would have done so, if we were positive that the product was up to snuff and worth every penny.

[commandosolo2009]

I recommend buying a PS3 game instead.. or saving for a new sim.

SH5 is tres pas bon...

If you want to buy it, wait till DRM is off, and the game is like patched 4 times..

They release buggy stuff at first since they dont work till the deadline is REALLY close, wrap it up and produce the eye candy, and then TORPEDO IMPACT..

[Takeda Shingen]

I am sorry, is this the best you can do?....

Why not make a super thread for all the hater comments, something you guys can actually keep updated. Keep our forum a little cleaner, so people coming for information can find how to play SH5, where to find mods, updates about the game they are "playing". Instead of finding all this crap that you guys are letting continue here.

I believe everyone has an opinion and I certainly don't promote censoring or closing threads.So with all the admins intent on making this place the shining example of how internet etiquette should be, instead of the mess that that you have let this place become, maybe show a little bit of support for the game and the players. Update the MOD and stickied threads, keep the forums clean for the new guys/gals.

Check my statistics, I am usually, (before SH5) a quiet reserved guy. Lately I am annoyed at how much you guys have let this place slide. So I am not gonna sit here and let people that do not even own the game rant about how crap it is, I don't care if my egg shell dance will get harder, I don't care which person I piss off. I am defending a fine piece of software, which will surpass what SH3 ever was in no time..

Don't mistake yourselves here, this is a battle and if you come over to this side of the forum, from the peaceful general topics and introduce yourself threads, I am sorry but you will see pissed off and annoyed people speaking out of turn and spiting each other. This is the fallout from the DRM issue, that is all it is... Don't be confused on that one either DRM is here to stay so it is a dead issue....

But, I will not let a few negative threads be the end all and tell all to this game. If you post negative about the game, back it up with feedback and let some of us have a crack at fixing it before "returning" your copy to best buy. If you post negatively and you can't back it up, expect players enjoying the game to let you know your wrong....

Let us players have what the SH4 players had, a chance to make this a great game with the support of a fine community and an even greater forum. Let us have that at least.

Maybe the old hats have gotten a little too old for this kind of work. no? yes?

No, the best I can do is lock the forum and start brigging people left and right. Instead, I used the Happy Squirrel, a signal that we should all try to get along, lest I be forced to lock the thread. I think that is a much nicer way to get people's attention, don't you?

That being said, this thread has outlived it's usefulness, which was dubious to begin with. Time to open the seacocks.

The Management

PS Peaceful General Topics? You must be new. That place is like thunderdome: There are no rules.