How long until Germany pulls out of the EU?

[Onkel Neal]

With the economic problems of several EU countries driving the Euro into the ground, with the Greeks complaining about having their pension age bumped up to 63 (when Germany's is 67), with Portugal facing its own debt crisis, how long before the Germans say enough, and pull out of the EU?

I say 5 years, or less.

[Freiwillige]

Probably would be the best thing for the Germans.

[Feuer Frei!]

Well,
I think without the Euro, Germany would be heading for disaster.
There was a time when Germans wanted to be Europeans more than to be Germans. European unification was an unshakeable goal. That time is long gone, there’s no doubt about it. With German reunification, this country has learned to be proud again.
Bring the bloody Deutschmark back and let France run what’s left of the eurozone. Go ahead and wallow in your smug sense of superiority! But that will be a horribly short-lived high, that’s for sure. After all, what would happen if Germany withdrew from the euro?
A currency appreciation of about 30 per cent over against the residual euro would be the upshot. A 30 per cent revaluation would give French and Italian industries, as well as those of Belgium, the Netherlands and Slovakia, a huge competitive edge on the world markets. The remaining eurozone would experience a massive export boom and, liberated from Germany, could finally grow. And since the French have a more pragmatic approach to consolidating the state budget than the Germans, because they rightly believe growth is more effective than cost-cutting in straightening out the economy, the remaining eurozone would be in for bumper years ahead.
What about the Germans with their new mark? Their stability would be knocked for six. The appreciation of the Deutschmark would make “Made in Germany” too expensive. Exports would collapse: German companies’ sales abroad would decrease as a function of France & Co.’s export increase. It’s that simple. Unemployment would rise, as would the national debt, because more people would be dependent on benefits. Because growth, which currently comes from exports alone, would be stifled. Labour costs here would then really be too high and wage temperance the order of the day. More years of privation would lie ahead.
The monetary union can only relieve internal tensions by working together. A €9 billion loan to Greece is peanuts compared to Germany’s go-it-alone exploits. And there can be no serious discussion of any country at all leaving – let alone being expelled – from the club.
I vote they won't leave.

[joegrundman]

nice post feuer frei

@ Neil - do you mean out of the EU, or out of the Euro?

[Noren]

Are you guys serious? Can you link to sources and such?

EU is more of a cooperation among european countries and while there definitely are drawbacks of having EU, there would be a long stretch to imagine the economic powerhouse Germany actually quitting.

[Skybird]

The Bundesrepublik Dummland claims to be a strong economy. But it is by far the most extremely export-oriented economy in Europe and one of the two or three strongest exporters, in total numbers, on the planet, which makes it in fact extremely depending on others and on events that are beyond it'S influence, but can claim havoc on it's economy, namely state spendings for social issues, and tax income. Germany is a strong exporter, yes - but being that does not translate into "strong economy" in a linear fashion, in my view of things. a strong economy is one that does not depend so much on others, can run autark, and no matter the events in other parts of the world can maintain the soical integrity of it's civil society, both temporary and future generation. For that, you would need more than just purely economic measures, but that is a different topic.

In a way, the drop of the Euro therefore works well for Germany, it makes it easier for Germany to export. But it does nothing to strengthen internal consummation within Germany, for real loans here, like anywhere it seems, are falling. People's "Kaufkraft" is decreasing. And the export-fixiated orientation of the german economy also does not get adressed by this.

This makes it unlikely that German politicians will like to leave the Euro and see it going. Truth is that no other nation in Europe has such a strong economic interest (not a "felt social" but an economic interest!) in the Euro and protecting it, no matter what. When Berlin blocked an agreement on Greece for long time, the French and others simply were horrified. Germany, the once bad player and now - morally obligatory - eternal Mr Nice Guy, is expected to be the EU's gold ass who can be milked whenever the EU wants money for something. Note the sheer arrogance by which the Greek herold two days ago walked around and simply demanded the EU to quickly pay for Greece, and that the Germans will just fall into line, or else! not the smallest clue that he felt guilty over forging statistics and telling lies and ruining an economy and being in debt by Greece'S own fault! He behaved as if he was the savior of Europe and the others where in need of his reliefs. that performance really poissed me, I mean I do not expect Greek ambassadors to fall on their knees, but modesty at least is what could be expected - not such arrogance as if nothing has happened. Most states in europe have arranged themselves happily in this setting of just some few nations paying for the majorityof others, always warning of loss of solidarity and starting to mention the war when the German donkey appears to become stubborn to sh!t any more Euro-ducats. But the hypocrisy finds it'S climax when states like Britain some weeks ago demanded the Germans to even reduce their economic productivity in order to become less competitive and allow other european economies to take over their shares - while at the same time refusing to adapt to the German procedures and methods that allowed germany to pass through the economic crisis so surprisingly well until here (better than any other of the major industrial nations in europe who nevertheless refuse to take the German way as an example for how to improve themselves). This is a demand arguing by not improving the performance of those lagging behind, but by demanding to pull back into collective mediocrity all those who do better than the average - and then calling this "solidarity", and still raising the open hand to demand money.

Fact is that Greece has used cheating, lying and betraying to worm itself into the eurozone. Fact also is that many top european politicians must have known that, years ago - and willed to lket it go by, unchallenged. Fact also is that Greece has a long tradition of running an extremely inefficient economy where the state services serve as a job creation scheme where people possibly could go into early pension after 25 years with the state even taking over their payments for health insurrances, while on the other hand these massively blown up state services increased bureaucracy, thus: possibilities for corruption (and hiding it), and resulted in a bureaucracy extremely oversized, inefficient and killing fincial investements into it since they had no economic fundament by the economy. That the Greece now collapse, is no surprise at all. It was predetermined.

Fact also is that the stability pact and the Maastrict criterions totally, absolutely prohibit any bailout for Greece, or that one european nation in any way compensates for the threat of bancruptcy of any other european state, no matter whether that is done directly or indirectly. This was meant to force nations to manage their economies respinsibly, instead of spending like crazy and expectin gothers to compensate for that, and destabilising the "solid" euro. In Germany, if there is money flowing to Greece, the case will be brought to the German Constitutional High Court, and chances are very good that it will be won, for the currency union then has been turned into a transfer union which effectively means the end of a stabile Euro, abandoning the still legally valid treaties who were designed for preventing right this. That today politicians do not discuss how the goal, the spirit, the meaning of these rules can be secured to be followed despite the crisis, how they can be protected and fulfilled, biut that instead politicians openly discuss how treaties and laws in them can be broken, how the meanin and the goal and the spirit of these treaties can be violated while only causing the smallest public opposition, is a scandal that demonstrates the real inner rotten attitude of the EU. The EU's rules are just not worth the paper they are printed on. we have seen similiar behavior and attitude in the past, namely with the way the Lisbon dictate was enforced onto Europeans.

The problem with the Euro was that it came too early, much too early. Political idiocy and narcissism wanted a display of imagined unity (since politicians love opportunities of symbolism allowing them to wallow their narcissistic egos and boost their popularity by that). But economic demands that must be fulfilled in order to add sense and survivability to a shared currency, were ignored. Reason alltogether was ignored. The needed step before a shared currency is that the economies of the participants are being turned into becoming more compatible with each other, and in general share the same ammount of productivity, since economic differences no longer can be smoothed out by according currency fluctuations of individual currencies on the market. This inevitable precondition was totally, completely ignored, and this is what has brought us into the mess. Also, in the EU it has become a habit in the past 20 years to always rush ahead at full power, no matter what, and any hesitation, any brake for re-evaluating the past decisions and checking whether the course decided matches reality or not, has become a heresy and a reason to brandmark you as an anti-European. The democratically unlegitimised accumulation of centralised power in the EU commission is worrying, the climate of group dynamics pressing single actors to fall into line is troubling, the threat of getting collectively bullied if not obeying group pressure has become a major obstacle for the very freedom itself. We see the emerging of a european superstate without political legitimiation by the people (what makes it kind of a feudal thing), a dicatorship by the bureaucrats that stay even when names in national government posts change. the ammount of regulation, and overregulation being called for by the EU, already is famous, while it's competence in assessing the effected issues is not. The Lisbon dicate gives the commission - or shall I say: the central committee? - the power to make any of it's proposals legally binding for national parliaments. Which puts the meaning of national elections for parliament even more into doubt than it already is. Why voting for a parliament if it has nothing to say in legislation and law-making anymore?

All this must be considered when thinking on Neal's question on Germany and the Euro. The euro, and the state of the union and the economic characteristics of Germany, all are combined for just one issue. yiu cannot separate them, and pick one out while not touching the others.

Greece should be kicked out of the eurozone. It then can fully cooperate with the ICF without any european fears of lost reputation for the euro being that important anymore (the Euro already is damaged, isn'T it), and they could let their currency freely fluctuate again. Also, state bancruptcy is something serious, but not the end of all days. All major european powers in the past 500 years have been there, most of them repeatedly. Almost 100 such cases get listed by historians. A german conservative also mentioned the option to refuse Greece the voting right in certain EU bodies, especially those giving them a way to manipulate decision making affecting the economic and financial relations between Greece and the rest of the EU. Hell, I mean even the statistics they showed again just last week - were trying to manipulate again and were simply forged! EUn statistics office complains heavily about Greece's cheating, manipulating statistics they deliver, saying that Greece'S statistics lie by habit to hide the truth. Such statements being that frank you get rarely only from EU bodies.

Conclusions: most of the money being pumped into Greece will never be payed back - they cannot now, and will not be able to do so in any future scenario that can be forseen now. Aid you give now, is aid being lost. They need the money now to just service the interests of excisting debts, and pay back debts that have had lower interest rates. That means: they fall even deeper into the pit of debts, while not using the money for anything else than that. I do not know where this should lead to, it just delays the inevitable. And this is what makes any payment of German tax moneys - for which German owners (that's what taxpayers are: they are the owner of the state's taxes) have to work more years in a life than the Greeks - an embezzlement of public tax moneys, and the attempt to save the damaged reputation of the Euro - just an act to polish a surface behind which the substance already is rotten.

So, I think the Euro sooner or later will fail its current format, and I even do hope so although I am aware of the consequences for Germany, for two reasons. First, the current state of things is not a healthy one, and the mixture of participants is not serving constructive interests. And second: the fall of the Euro could possibly deliver a blow to the EU itself, which - if it is crushing enough to do enough damage to enforce major course corrections - can even enforce reductions in the EU's power, which I would absolutely welcome, even if the price for getting these two things is a phase of chaos that could throw us into troubled waters for some time. But I think it is better to take that chance for getting a healthier, more realistic, more meaningful europe, than to stay on the current course - and know that we are doomed to fail for sure. We brought us into this mess, so we cannot expect to get out of it again without suffering scratches and bruises. What we currently are being trapped in is called "the dilemma of lost investements" in social sciences. It means that wrongs ways get agreed on to be followed any longer, because correcting them and adapting to reality checks would reveal past investements as "being lost" and would label past methods as having been wrong - so one agrees to carry on like usual instead, although this is what fulfills the prophecy.

In the end, Greece is just like all the West, an exemplary precedent, since all western nations invest into increasing bureeaucracy, are being economically challenged by those they have risen in past decades to become that competitive, and now getting eaten up from within by an explosion of social spendings, driven by the changing age-structure of populations, decreasing population levels, and importing foreigners who for the most are social low class insteadof specialists and cost the social system more than they can contribute to it. the latter is politically incorrect to say, but even official statistics prove this by now, black on white.

Collapse is pre-programmed. Greece just happens to fall first. The lesson of the story by the end of the day? Nations, do not spend more money than your economies first have produced. don't borrow, don't live on tick from one generation to the next.

I am sure that no nation will listen. The shine must shine on, you know.

P.S. "Probably never". But one never knows for sure, sometimes miracles happen. Or accidents.

[Fincuan]

Not going to happen anytime soon. Germany will be part of the EU as long as the union exists.

[PhantomLord]

Not going to happen anytime soon. Germany will be part of the EU as long as the union exists.

Second that.

And what about greece... 8.5 billion Euro´s from germany??? This is peanuts. :yawn:

We´ve spend over 125 billions to "system relevant" banksters, Opel... and god knows who´s next.
As Skybird said... the shine must shine on :sunny:


"probably never"

[Feuer Frei!]

The interesting conundrum is that Greece does not appear prepared to accept the austerity measures demanded of it, particularly since unemployment is projected to reach 20% by the end of 2010 before budget cuts have an impact.
German citizens were given a pledge by their leaders in the 1990s that loss of the D-Mark would not lead to monetary disorder, or leave them liable for Club Med debt. That is the sacred contract of EMU.
Other eurozone members, aware that a German exit would destroy the value of the euro, would be willing to make significant concessions to keep Germany inside. Such game-theoretic jockeying increases the chance that a German politician would want to threaten such a trick.

The way the media and politicians are covering the Greek bailout, is as if it actually has happened. All that is in place is a framework under which conditions must be met for it to go ahead. The most important condition is that all Euro members have to agree to it, and it is not 100% certain that Germany will. The bailout is extremely unpopular in Germany and there is an important state election in North Rhein Westfalia to contend as well.

I believe that Germany should veto the bailout, as it is a ridiculously short sighted plan, that will encourage the other member states that are in a self-made financial mess to not sort out their finances. If Greece is bailed out it will be the beginning of the end for the Euro.

The Germans no longer accept being required to be the EU’s paymasters to atone for their Nazi past. There is also an increase in euroscepticism in German public opinion. While Germany introduced austerity measures and trimmed down its welfare system, countries such as Greece refused to do so, relying on the fact that the EU (read: Germany) would bail them out when they got in trouble in order to save the euro.

Stand united, Deutschland!

[Rilder]

Damn it this is a serious thread, I wanted to make a joke about pulling out. :88)

[Feuer Frei!]

Damn it this is a serious thread, I wanted to make a joke about pulling out. :88)
Deadly serious, Rilder :O:

[Happy Times]

With the economic problems of several EU countries driving the Euro into the ground, with the Greeks complaining about having their pension age bumped up to 63 (when Germany's is 67), with Portugal facing its own debt crisis, how long before the Germans say enough, and pull out of the EU?

I say 5 years, or less.

I also read that their pension system gives 80% of their monthly wage.:dead:


Portugal, Spain, Ireland and Italy are likely to follow Greece if this help package fails.

If that happens then we could see not only the monetary union breaking but the whole EU.

As much as people hate the EU at present form the unknowns from everything falling are such that i dont see any member bailing out just yet.

Im also pissed about the way these countries have handled their affairs.

Finland also has had role in the EU of paying others peoples lunch and i feel for Germany.
They are the core of the union in more ways than just geographically.

Even before the "North" and "West" have payed for the "South" and recently the "East".
The main reason behind this shouldnt be forgotten, the ever important will to exist peacefully in this small continent together.

But something has to change in the way this is achieved!
Not by these undemocratic processes the new ruling class, the Eurocrats, have created for us.:nope:
The present path could well lead to secessions and conflicts of unknown results.

Combined with this economic crisis the other issues like failed immigration and polarization of societies gives reason for real concern over the future of Europe.

[Schroeder]

I wish the whole Euro/EU thing would be reset. But I don't think this is going to happen.
To me it seems as if it is already decided to bail Greece out. Portugal and Italy are likely to be next then. I actually wonder how we can bail countries out if we (Germany) are making debts left and right ourselves?
The bottle is empty, so how are we supposed to give others something to drink?
But in "good" old tradition Germany will bend over and do what it's demanded to do....still suffering from the "bad boy" syndrome.:dead:
That's also why I don't see Germany leaving the EU any time soon.


PS to Skybird's post:
Kaufkraft = Buying Power

[UnderseaLcpl]

Whether or not Germany would pull out of the E.U. I cannot say, but I think the E.U. would benefit greatly from a more pro-German agenda. Such an agenda would have to adopted gradually, with smaller nationalities or regions adopting German policy as a test-bed. Austria or the Sudetenland would probably be a good place to start. After that, a nation like, say, the Czech Republic might be persuaded to get on board.

Some larger nations might present more of a problem. Poland, for instance, would probably have reservations about jumping on ze Bundes-wagon that might necessitate creative efforts to overcome political resistance. Fortunately, there is a simple, final, solution if that is the case. German electrical engineers could be dispatched to revamp Poland's electrical system, resulting in an overload of all their light-bulbs. Then German administration can move in quite easily, as most of the Poles will be too busy rotating ladders to think about EU policy. I call it the polits-krieg.

If that pans out, the E.U. can then begin adopting the policy on a more widespread scale. Small but progressive nations like Belgium or the Netherlands would likely be the first to willingly accept this model of reform. Europe's other major continental power, France, would likely also surrender to reason and join up.

Ultimately, I think everyone but maybe the UK would adopt the German-centric agenda, but that's okay because the UK has always recieved large amounts of high-quality German exports whenever Germany demonstrates economic dominance.

Using this plan, I think Germany could build an E.U. that would last a thousand years.

[HunterICX]

Using this plan, I think Germany could build an E.U. that would last a thousand years.

waaaaaaaaait...a minute....

HunterICX

[Tchocky]

Bundes-wagen, love it :har:

[antikristuseke]

Whether or not Germany would pull out of the E.U. I cannot say, but I think the E.U. would benefit greatly from a more pro-German agenda. Such an agenda would have to adopted gradually, with smaller nationalities or regions adopting German policy as a test-bed. Austria or the Sudetenland would probably be a good place to start. After that, a nation like, say, the Czech Republic might be persuaded to get on board.

Some larger nations might present more of a problem. Poland, for instance, would probably have reservations about jumping on ze Bundes-wagon that might necessitate creative efforts to overcome political resistance. Fortunately, there is a simple, final, solution if that is the case. German electrical engineers could be dispatched to revamp Poland's electrical system, resulting in an overload of all their light-bulbs. Then German administration can move in quite easily, as most of the Poles will be too busy rotating ladders to think about EU policy. I call it the polits-krieg.

If that pans out, the E.U. can then begin adopting the policy on a more widespread scale. Small but progressive nations like Belgium or the Netherlands would likely be the first to willingly accept this model of reform. Europe's other major continental power, France, would likely also surrender to reason and join up.

Ultimately, I think everyone but maybe the UK would adopt the German-centric agenda, but that's okay because the UK has always recieved large amounts of high-quality German exports whenever Germany demonstrates economic dominance.

Using this plan, I think Germany could build an E.U. that would last a thousand years.

Well played, good sir, well played. An internets for you.

[Skybird]

Second that.

And what about greece... 8.5 billion Euro´s from germany??? This is peanuts. :yawn:

Do you really think it would be left to that...? The ICF offers 12 billion, the EU (compared to the ICF with the smaller experience in dealing with countries like Greece) so far offers 30 billion, of whioch germany would need to pay 8.5 and France 6 billion.

Last week I read calculations that these 45 billion would be eaten up within the next 6 months - for credit and interest issues only. After that period of time, greece would have even greater debts and interest rates it would need to service. Halleluja.

It is not 8.5 billion for the Germans. All in all more realistic calculations project Greece being in need of 80 - 270 billion euros over the next 3 years. Guess who is expected to pay the lion's share of that.

And then comes Portugal. Spain.

As the BBC put it in an essay: it could end up with the Germans paying for better Greek than their own pensions in Germany.

I think it is necessary to let Greece crash hard against the wall by kicking them out of the eurozone. The announcement of such a move would be that people storm the banks and try to get back their savings, which would kill the banks in Greece completely. After that, we have an Argentinian status in Greece. All that is not nice but now it is about containing the crisis, not about preventing it anymore.

All this comes becasue cheating was allowed by the EU and leaders looked the other direction for too long. Now you have the result of this dilletantism: a total mess.

BTW, Germany already is increasing it'S debts, too. Let nobody assume that Germany could pay a single million for others without making debts itself. Our deficit is hitting record heights, and we are in danger of folliwjg hte same opath like the US has done since some years earlier. Before the banking crisis, we were close to having a balanced budget for the first time ever. Now, two years later, we have the highest total debt level ever, the highest new debts raise ever, the most deficitary yearly budget ever. If somebody thinks Germany is financially so rich that it could afford all the things demanded from it, let him think again. We have started to live more excessively on tick than ever before. As I said: germany has started to follow the example of the US: Debts, more debts, and then more debts.

I hope nobody is naive enough to assume that the western debts are ever intended to be payed back. and this says something about the functionality of our economical systems and philosophies. They simply do not work without "infinite money" cheats and the "God mode" hack. Which means they do not function at all.

[PhantomLord]

Do you really think it would be left to that...?

Ehm... no :D

Yesterdays sarcastic peanuts... it´s the only way to handle this bunch of liars, cheaters and incompetent ministers... (completing the list would kill my day)

Todays newspaper:
Wolfgang Schäuble - german finance minister:

- "The stability of the euro will be defended in athens!" Say what?

- "No one really knows what it will cost..." Uhm... sounds bad... but...

- "It will be no cost for the german people... because it´s a credit that has to be paid back!" Aaaahhh! Now i´m enlighted and will happily give all my money to greece, portugal, spain.... :doh:

So come on Skybird. Trust our government! :yeah:

P.S.: I really share your point of view. Well said.

[Skybird]

@ Phantom,

very good comment in the FAZ:

"We all are living on the ground of lifelong lies":

http://www.faz.net/s/RubCF3AEB154CE64960822FA5429A182360/Doc~E853CB26F63CB4AFBB8A5D046CF10496E~ATpl~Ecommon ~Scontent.html

Scaring how true this is.

Take away from a society all the lies of it'S life, and you take away it's political order as well.

P.S. Berlin you live at? Where? I stayed ten years there, near the Kaisereiche/Friedenau, in the 80s. It seems you Berliners over there are already preparing again for the "Kampf in den Mai"...? :-?

[PhantomLord]

Yepp this is scary. But more scary is the ignorance and the boredom of all the "small" people all over europe. Where´s the ****ing raised fist? And no i don´t mean the braindead rowdys and hooligans from our beloved "Battle of 1. May" in Berlin.

Are we really this dull and brainwashed...? That can bring one in rage.

Oh and Berlin...
According to senator Körting the police have to deal with 3000 - 5000 neonazi´s and around 10.000 members on countermarches. Hope the de-escalating strategy works well this year. Especially in Pankow where i live :D Stupidly the focus will be exactly there (according to our newspapers).

However... i´m far away, kicking stones into the Steinhuder Meer, enjoy a sunny weekend with my wife. :up:

[Hitman]

Some people are so stupid not to understand that getting money loaned is not equal to creating it out of nothing. You are now rich because you have brought from the future the full amount of money you would be able to spare in that future. But you only can do so once. You feel, rich, you burn it, and then suddenly your pockets are empty ... not just for now but for the next 30 years.

This has happened to Greece and is happening now to Spain. Bloody a**holes those politicians that just promise and promise and increase debt they will not pay. And instead of lining them up in front of a firing squad, people go and vote for them :88) THis just shows that Spain is in fact still 3rd world, much closer to Africa than to EU. And that is the reason why Germany can't keep up with this, it's not a problem of echonomy, it's a problem of society. Mediterranean societies are unfortunatelly in general retarded, lame, and with no sense of responsability.

Germany will not pull out of the EU. It will push out the lot who don't deserve to be there, which is something quite different :nope:

[Wolfehunter]

I hope nobody is naive enough to assume that the western debts are ever intended to be payed back. and this says something about the functionality of our economical systems and philosophies. They simply do not work without "infinite money" cheats and the "God mode" hack. Which means they do not function at all.

This is the whole point of it. Going into debt that seems to never end till it crashes one day.. Top dogs won't feel a thing. Us on the bottom of the food chain will be hit hard. We'll be fighting for the last bit of scraps. Elites will toss a bone from time to time... Give some of us a break... :88)

[mookiemookie]

waaaaaaaaait...a minute....

HunterICX

:rotfl2:

[Schroeder]

@ Hitman

Do you really think it's any different here?
People vote those who promise the most and usually punish those on election day who tell the truth. Therefore no one is telling the truth any more and everyone keeps on smiling all the time although the ship is already half way under the waves. Well, at least the band is still playing.:yeah:

[HunterICX]

@Schroeder, its the same all over Europe currently

the governement in Holland was very good in spending more then what the country earned...increasing the national debt...and now they go ''We'll have to cut in the Healthcare AGAIN, in education AGAIN!''

if they have to cut in something its the governement expenses...:stare:

HunterICX

[Dowly]

I hope soon, I made a bet with a mate that I pull out of this dead hooker at the same time as Germany pulls out of EU. :doh:

[antikristuseke]

I hope soon, I made a bet with a mate that I pull out of this dead hooker at the same time as Germany pulls out of EU. :doh:

At least I am not the only one in a dead hooker.

[Dowly]

At least I am not the only one in a dead hooker.

Ow it's you?! I heard someone typing on her head side, but she's so darn bloated that I can't see who it is. So, how's things over on that side?

[antikristuseke]

The nose fell off, exploring new avenues of exitement.

[Dowly]

Ow hell, that's not fair, you gots like 6 holes to choose from, I got only two and I'm not going for the stinker. :stare:

[antikristuseke]

I don't think we should carry this discussion forward, but at least i got a laugh out of it:salute:

[Dowly]

Party pooper. :O:

:salute:

[Arclight]

the governement in Holland was very good in spending more then what the country earned...increasing the national debt...and now they go ''We'll have to cut in the Healthcare AGAIN, in education AGAIN!''
And raising pensionable age to 67 as well. :shifty:


My chances of living to 65 with my mind intact are slim, now I'm totally screwed. :lol:

[Foxtrot]

EU can always ask for a bit of "assistance" from China :D

[nikimcbee]

Deutchland uber alles. I think until the waiter brings them the check. Of course, the could annex a few states to pay for the debt...:hmmm:
Lebensraum anyone?

[joegrundman]

Deutchland uber alles. I think until the waiter brings them the check. Of course, the could annex a few states to pay for the debt...:hmmm:
Lebensraum anyone?


:roll:

[Skybird]

“This is like Ebola,” Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development Secretary General Gurria told Bloomberg Television yesterday. “It’s threatening the stability of the financial system.”

It's always a spectacle to hear politicians playing down things and voicing how optimistic they are and that things are under control - while things already are several turns ahead in the fall down the spiral and monetarian distaster numbers constantly climb and climb and climb.

The 600 billion being mentioned in the following report sure as hell will not be the last mark being reached. I estimate 300+ billion for Greece alone, and being in the trillions when considering Portugal, Ireland, Spain, Greece alltogether.

Meanwhile it is being reported that rich Greeks have smuggled 8 billion out of the country in the first two months of this year - while initially 8.5 billion German tax-bucks were mentioned to go into Greece (actually the german share currently is euphemistically maked at 30+ billion, which of course is just wishful thinking).

The lies and self-deceptions of the past 20 or 30 years are now going to gotcha us. Can't say I would shed a tear over the Eurozone collapsing and hopefully the EU suffering disruptive damage from it. Wer nicht hören will, muß fühlen.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=a5lqHqLT1CeQ&pos=2

http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article7404901/Volkswirte-fuerchten-600-Milliarden-Euro-Rechnung.html


European policy makers may need to stump up as much as 600 billion euros ($794 billion) in aid or buy government bonds if they are to stamp out the region’s spreading fiscal crisis, said economists at JPMorgan Chase & Co. and Royal Bank of Scotland Group Plc.
(...)
A Greek agreement may not be enough to end a crisis that’s ricocheting through all euro-region markets and governments may have to come up with a blanket plan for the bloc as a whole, said Mackie. He calculates that in a worst-case contagion scenario, supporting Spain, Portugal and Ireland (http://www.subsim.com/apps/quote?ticker=GDBR10%3AIND) and Greece may require aid worth 8 percent of the gross domestic product of the rest of the region. That’s equivalent to about 600 billion euros.

Deutchland uber alles. I think until the waiter brings them the check. Of course, the could annex a few states to pay for the debt...:hmmm:
Lebensraum anyone?
That was really so damn funny, I pissed my pants in laughter.

[TarJak]

Whether or not Germany would pull out of the E.U. I cannot say, but I think the E.U. would benefit greatly from a more pro-German agenda. Such an agenda would have to adopted gradually, with smaller nationalities or regions adopting German policy as a test-bed. Austria or the Sudetenland would probably be a good place to start. After that, a nation like, say, the Czech Republic might be persuaded to get on board.

Some larger nations might present more of a problem. Poland, for instance, would probably have reservations about jumping on ze Bundes-wagon that might necessitate creative efforts to overcome political resistance. Fortunately, there is a simple, final, solution if that is the case. German electrical engineers could be dispatched to revamp Poland's electrical system, resulting in an overload of all their light-bulbs. Then German administration can move in quite easily, as most of the Poles will be too busy rotating ladders to think about EU policy. I call it the polits-krieg.

If that pans out, the E.U. can then begin adopting the policy on a more widespread scale. Small but progressive nations like Belgium or the Netherlands would likely be the first to willingly accept this model of reform. Europe's other major continental power, France, would likely also surrender to reason and join up.

Ultimately, I think everyone but maybe the UK would adopt the German-centric agenda, but that's okay because the UK has always recieved large amounts of high-quality German exports whenever Germany demonstrates economic dominance.

Using this plan, I think Germany could build an E.U. that would last a thousand years.
LOL Ein EU! Ein Euro! Ein etc. etc.:D

[Schroeder]

That was really so damn funny, I pissed my pants in laughter.
You didn't! As a good German you don't know what hum(o)ur is and therefore you never laugh. Besides, you wear no pants but Lederhosen!:nope:

[Hitman]

and being in the trillions when considering Portugal, Ireland, Spain, Greece alltogether.

:har:

That's because you've not been here and don't have 1st hand experience.

The real truth about what is underlying in Spain is ... EU breaking :88)

We're going to get our as**es shot off the EU in less than what you need to spell "E.U."

And deservedly so :nope:

[STEED]

Why is Germany pushing to get Greece out of the s***? Why not let them sink and kick them out of the EU.

I think there is more to this than meets the eye. :hmmm:

[UnderseaLcpl]

Why is Germany pushing to get Greece out of the s***? Why not let them sink and kick them out of the EU.

I think there is more to this than meets the eye. :hmmm:

To put it in the words of some person who's name I cannot recall at the moment: "It's the politics, stupid".

[TarJak]

Why is Germany pushing to get Greece out of the s***? Why not let them sink and kick them out of the EU.

I think there is more to this than meets the eye. :hmmm:It's also the economics. Germany needs Greece (and the rest of the EU) to buy its exports, otherwise its economy suffers. The problem with the EU is if one falls, then the others being tightly linked economically as well as politically, suffer along with them.

The problem here will be the fact that the cycle of failure, bailout will most likley not be broken and if you think Greece is the only EU state teetering on the brink of economic collapse, then you should take a good hard look at Spain, Italy and some of the other less likely suspects.

Germany depends on all of the others to make the EU work for their economy.

[STEED]

I would like the UK out of that bloody EU Monster, £45 million a day we give to the EU...Stuff them, that's money we need to get out of our own mess.

[Skybird]

It's also the economics. Germany needs Greece (and the rest of the EU) to buy its exports, otherwise its economy suffers.

It is not that simplistic. The economic fallout for the german economy comes not from lost deals with Greeece, but indirectly via troubles on the makrets, instabile Euro currencies, lost trust in banks which in return become even more hesitent to give credits, and the longterm consequences of nations taking even more debts themselves in order to bail out the Greek today. All this together means not only Greek-German deals being effected, but all German exports and economy alltogether. If it were Greece alone, in no way it could be said that Germany would need Greece economically. The trade volume is not big enough. The loss in trade volume would be much less than what the crisis costs us now.

In 2008, goods worth only 11 billion were exported to Greece, with German total exports being around 980 billion. In 2009, exports dropped to 6.6 billion. So, Greece is neither a vital partner for German economics, nor is it considered to be a system-relevant economy within the EU.

In 2008, Greek goods worth 3 billion were imported by Germany, with German imports from all the world totalling 800 billion.

In 2009, Germany's share of total EU payments to Greece were worth 1.4 billion. Greece is netto receiver of EU budget payments, and always has been.

Before a monetarian union, oyu must have some kind of an economic union. This was ignored when starting the euro. But without an economic balance, any monetarian union necessarily turns into a transfer union. the need for an economic balabce first may be the reason, why the idea of a superstate of europe with a shareed currency maybe must be seen as more illusional as has been assumed even by pessimists. Because I do not see any scenario were such an economic balancing would become reality. Also, the basic proboems with Greece have been known but not reacted too for too long, since Greece joined the Euro. They just hoped they could sit it out and the fairy queen would save the game for them.

What also often gets ignored is the social dynamics caused by age structures of societies, and this effecting economic perspectives. The span in differences of average age in European countries is beyond 15 years, with Germany being one of the oldest populations, and for example Ireland I think being one of the youngest. Only some economists point out that for that reason of different economic perspectives nations need the freedom to have different interest rate levels. But In europe, the ECB sets the same level for all nations, which may be good for some nations, while being extremely bad for others. Another argument why this Euro currency is such a bad idea. There is too little cohesion in Europe.

what also makes me angry is that for the banking crisis, the ordinary man had to pay the bill, not the banks. It appears that now again the ordinary taxpayer must pay the bill, witht he banks beign saved again. Message: risky deals and irresponsible business models poay off because the high profile actors time and again are allowed to get away with it - because it is said that milking the banks would again damage own econmies.

the past three years have been three DAMN GOOD years for bankers. They blew off, but saved their earning sand got away with it. Several banks, amoingst them goldman and Deutsche B'ank, have published fantastic profit numbers in the past days - whcih can only be explained by high risk speculations already have become the ordinary business again, and all talking about greater sense of responsibility obviously already gone with the wind.

The Casino is open again, and the show already runs hotter again than ever before. One could start to wish for murder when imagining it.

[Snestorm]

How sweet it would be if that happenned because, without Germany, there could be no EU.

If it is to happen at all, it will happen shortly after the "rich country" illusion finaly pops, and the realities of a deep depression finaly anger the people enough to take back their country from the corupt politicians, banksters, and leaders of industry.

The EU is like foreign aid.
It takes money from the poor people in a "rich" country,
and gives it to the rich people in a "poor"/poor country.

[STEED]

This came up as an subject on the radio last night, an a expert on EU regulations and law said, Germany and the IMF can not bail out Greece as they would be breaking an EU law of sovereignty of the country. :hmmm:

Mind you, we all know laws can so easily be melted like ice cream. ;)

[Feuer Frei!]

Greece's IMF quota is only SDR820m, or the equivalent of around $1.2bn. Even if under its exceptional lending practices the IMF were to extend Greece an 18-month standby arrangement for 12 times Greece's quota, which is the largest amount of a country's quota that the IMF has committed to date, the IMF would be able to commit only about $15bn of its own resources to a Greek bail-out programme.
The very large size that a Greek bail-out package would have to be if it were to be credible in the markets implies that the IMF cannot and will not bear this burden on its own.
Sadly, Greece's very large public borrowing needs over the next 18 months dictate that a credible bail-out package would have to be at least between $40bn and $50bn. This means that the eurozone countries would have to commit at least $25bn to Greece in order to satisfy the IMF that the bail-out programme was fully funded.
The net upshot is that going to the IMF will not spare Greece having to get substantial German financial support. Given the German taxpayers' strong opposition to a Greek bail-out, this could prove to be a major challenge for Greece ahead of the scheduled May 9 Westphalia election.
It seems not turning to the IMF is also a pride thing as well:

The French and the European Central Bank, which had opposed turning to the IMF out of fear it would damage the euro's prestige and show that Europe was unable to solve its own financial woes. The eurozone has never turned to the IMF.
Germany sees itself as a fierce defender of prudent budget spending and is unwilling to use its taxpayer money to help Greece, which overspent and faked budget figures for years.

Spain on Wednesday became the latest eurozone country to suffer a credit rating downgrade, as contagion from the Greek debt crisis appeared to be spreading rapidly.
"Amid the disorder, the possibility that Berlin could be legally prevented from contributing to the Greek aid package stands out as a potential source of further difficulty.
Four German professors - Wilhelm Hankel, Wilhelm Nolling, Karl Albrecht Schachtschneider and Joachim Starbatty - are attempting to do just that, on the grounds that a bilateral transfer to Greece would breach the EU's 'no bail-out' clause.
The four unsuccessfully fought an anti-euro lawsuit at the German constitutional court in 1998, but are confident they will win this time. "Our initiative has unbelievably big support," professor Starbatty said this week.
Legal experts are currently debating whether the German court could allow aid to flow to Greece while it looked into the legality of the transfer."

[Happy Times]

Europe's next bankruptcy candidates?
http://www.dw-world.de/dw/article/0,,5515912,00.html

[Skybird]

Just in: Greece officially announces a financial need of 60 billion.

PER YEAR.

Now consider that they say you should not trust Greeks if they bring you statistics and numbers. Consider that all their numbers presented in the past were lies and forgery.

ICF said they plan for an at least 10 year renovation of Greece.

Now do some math, and don'T forget to calculate a generous reserve for future "corrections", too.

http://www.welt.de/wirtschaft/article7430242/Griechen-brauchen-60-Milliarden-Euro-Hife-pro-Jahr.html

"Oh happy days... da-dada-daaa... oh happy dah-hays... da-dada-daaa..."

[TarJak]

It is not that simplistic. The economic fallout for the german economy comes not from lost deals with Greeece, but indirectly via troubles on the makrets, instabile Euro currencies, lost trust in banks which in return become even more hesitent to give credits, and the longterm consequences of nations taking even more debts themselves in order to bail out the Greek today. All this together means not only Greek-German deals being effected, but all German exports and economy alltogether. If it were Greece alone, in no way it could be said that Germany would need Greece economically. The trade volume is not big enough. The loss in trade volume would be much less than what the crisis costs us now.

In 2008, goods worth only 11 billion were exported to Greece, with German total exports being around 980 billion. In 2009, exports dropped to 6.6 billion. So, Greece is neither a vital partner for German economics, nor is it considered to be a system-relevant economy within the EU.

In 2008, Greek goods worth 3 billion were imported by Germany, with German imports from all the world totalling 800 billion.

In 2009, Germany's share of total EU payments to Greece were worth 1.4 billion. Greece is netto receiver of EU budget payments, and always has been.

Before a monetarian union, oyu must have some kind of an economic union. This was ignored when starting the euro. But without an economic balance, any monetarian union necessarily turns into a transfer union. the need for an economic balabce first may be the reason, why the idea of a superstate of europe with a shareed currency maybe must be seen as more illusional as has been assumed even by pessimists. Because I do not see any scenario were such an economic balancing would become reality. Also, the basic proboems with Greece have been known but not reacted too for too long, since Greece joined the Euro. They just hoped they could sit it out and the fairy queen would save the game for them.

What also often gets ignored is the social dynamics caused by age structures of societies, and this effecting economic perspectives. The span in differences of average age in European countries is beyond 15 years, with Germany being one of the oldest populations, and for example Ireland I think being one of the youngest. Only some economists point out that for that reason of different economic perspectives nations need the freedom to have different interest rate levels. But In europe, the ECB sets the same level for all nations, which may be good for some nations, while being extremely bad for others. Another argument why this Euro currency is such a bad idea. There is too little cohesion in Europe.
I don't think I said it was simplistic. Politics and Economics rarely are. In fact my post was to the effect that it was not just about the politics but also the economic pressures on all the EU states including Germany, to bail out Greece. It is like all of these sorts of issues a complex and multi-faceted problem that no one has easy answers to.

[STEED]

Well from the radio I heard Germany owns the postal service and all the airports in Greece along with other investments, I see why Germany has been banging the drum.

[Happy Times]

Well from the radio I heard Germany owns the postal service and all the airports in Greece along with other investments, I see why Germany has been banging the drum.

We should also get something as collateral, some business would be nice or an island.:sunny:

[Skybird]

I translated this from a comment in a German paper that I think nailed it to the point very nicely.

---------

Beside the big bailout package, it seems to be a marginal note only: the European Central Bank (ECB) immediately and from now on accepts Greek state bonds as “securities”. That are right those bonds that just have been rated as garbage papers. That makes it all clear for even the most novice layman: this is the greatest sin possible of this issuing bank.

We got used to that the EU commission is not able to control the stability and growth pact. We also have to learn to accept that our (German) finance minister just in January said that the International Currency Fond has no business to do in the Eurozone – and that just four months later has to take back his words. But with what has happened yesterday we should refuse to come to terms with so easily: the ECB has, with regard to Greece, announced that even in the future it will accept state bonds as securities that have been rated as garbage values.

What sounds like just a technical detail, is a fundamental basic sin: the ECB president Jean-Claude Trichet has proven to all the world that in times of crisis his words are worth nothing anymore. Just early April Trichet assured everybody that for no nation, no country ever, exceptions from the rules would be accepted. But now the Central Bank has signed a card blanche for every deficit sinner. With that, the ECB has lost it’s innocence. (It has created the precedent case.)

The consequences are dramatic. How could the ECB ever justify again to raise interest rates in order to fight inflation – and by that at the same time putting the Greek rescuing program in danger…? The ECB is the one institution in Europe that safe-guards the monetary savings of people by guaranteeing the stability of the European currency. If people stop trusting the ECB, they will no longer plan with long-termed perspectives. If the president of the ECB just within weeks gives up most vital and basic principles, why should the Euro remain to stay stable over coming years and decades?

The answers to these questions have been refused to be given by European politicians and bankers. They claim to have put out the Greek fire, and know very well that the water does not last for Spain, Ireland and Portugal anymore. And in this crisis they have sacrificed the credibility and trustworthiness of all European institutions, from the EU commission to the Central Bank.

That are the real cost of the Greek bailout.

------------

Moral of the story: the rules of the EU are not worth the paper they are printed on. Laws, treaties and rules will be avoided and ignored whenever leaders think it is opportune to do so.

I have stopped trusting the EU years ago. And present events confirm to me that people have all reason one could wish for to not trust the EU. I hope this crisis explodes into our faces and the shockwave destroys the Union from roof to basement. If it cannot be repaired, crush it, and then build new - but not before all Europeans have learned the lesson for sure, by having seriously suffered themselves. the risk is high, the chnces for success are slim. But when staying with the EU, I see no long-term chance at all. A small chance in a situation of danger is better than no chance in a situation of illusional safety.

[KL-alfman]

Moral of the story: the rules of the EU are not worth the paper they are printed on. Laws, treaties and rules will be avoided and ignored whenever leaders think it is opportune to do so.



yes, the future for the E.U. doesn't look bright.
in many countries the political system turned to mere maintaining the influence of a class of bankers, politicians, tycoons.
and the middle-class has to pay for all.

[Happy Times]

ECB is a scam just like the FED, actually controlled by private bankers, didnt the Rothschilds start from Frankfurt..:O:

These kinds of people have no homeland, they are an elite with their own interest in mind.

I hope Finland leaves this mess and gets back the Finnish mark, i would be happily "poorer" under more democratic and sovereign economy.:salute:

[Skybird]

At least one thing the Greek should not be accused of: they are not the cause of the financial troubles in Europe, they are just the currently most prominent symptom, with more symptoms lining up at the starting line to enter the race for public attention, finally: Spain, Britain, Italy, Ireland, Portugal, and after these contesters practically all other Western nations and the capitalistic market model as well, including Germany and the United States. This is not just about the members of the Eurozone. Especially Britain also promises to become a star in financial trouble-making in the near future. The cause for the crisis evolving over the past 20 years or so is the structural change in the EU's orientation and self-design, and if you look back over the past 100 years the cause indeed is the inherent dualistic nature of capitalism itself that on the one hand has formed this formidable ablity to constantly modernise it'S production methods and raising it'S productivity - and right by that eroding the economic fundament of it's own EVA (economic value added=Wertschöpfung). Nothing in this world runs constantly in one direction, everything runs in circles, is dualistic, and for the good being gained, a bad sneaks in and a price has to be payed as well. It's like that with all things in life, isn't it.

Only stupids and economic and financial scientists can claim that there is something like constant growth, forever, and that it is free of charge.

They published this essay today, which I find to be a very nice summary of the developements and the reasons behind them, as well as some data nicely presented in graphics and putting some numerical stuff into relation. Even if you do not understand German, you might find the graphics helpful.

http://www.heise.de/bin/tp/issue/r4/dl-artikel2.cgi?artikelnr=32551&mode=print

[KL-alfman]

I wished this School of Economics had more influence nowadays:
http://mises.org/

(but all the governments let themselves be blinded by running into debts some next generations will have to pay back) :cry:

[Skybird]

debts some next generations will have to pay back

First time I heared that phrase I asked my mum about it and what it meant (debts-Schulden, I did not know it), for I was at elementary school when hearing it on an Black-White-TV. That is 35 years ago. and since then politicians tell us that the future generation will need to care, and that things will be solved just after the present has passed, and that it will become better once things have - become better in the near future.

It will not happen. what will happen is that we will continue to steal the future of our children and children's children in order to consume it all by ourselves.

Total Credit Market Debt as % of GDP: (note that even the bottom line does not mark "zero" but 130%)

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/2536/totalcreditmarketdebtvs.png (http://img169.imageshack.us/i/totalcreditmarketdebtvs.png/)

Paying back existing debts...??? Even at their best times the economies of the world would not have been able to shoulder that burden. When politicians tell us that we will start bringing debts back to zero once economy has recovered, they lie.

And they know it.

We will most likely not even be able to form balanced yearly budgets where no additonal debts are being taken. We will continue to live on tick, and while spiraling down the spiral, one day it all will implode. And then the world will turn really violent and chaotic again. Daily politics focusses on the desperate hope that it just will not happen within the legislation periods of current office holders. That's as far as our wisdom goes.

May as well go fishing.

[KL-alfman]

with saying that "future generations have to pay back", I liked to say that the debts from today are the interest of tomorrow. at some stage the interest and compound interest cannot be paid back (exponential curve!).
there is only one way to disencumber: reform of currency (which is compulsory of property in its true sense)

[Snestorm]

@KL-alfman
@Happy Times

My thoughts on this matter, and by extension, many other issues, are much in sync with yours.

Here's a link that lists the debt status of all nations, as compared to GDP:

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/economics/list-of-national-debt-by-country/

Even the world debt is listed as negative, compared to GDP.
Translation = There isn't enough money in the world to EVER repay these debts.
Translation 2 = Mr Rothschild, Mr Rockefella, and company, own the national economies of every nation on earth.

For the northern lands, the EU is a loose loose deal, both in terms of economics, and ultimately freedom and self preservation.

[KL-alfman]

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/economics/list-of-national-debt-by-country/



frightening figures! :cry:

[Bilge_Rat]

I cant see Germany leaving the EU. Here is my take as a Canadian.

Looking at it from an historical perspective, let's not forget that the main political impetus which drove the creation of the EU after 1945 was to prevent a repeat of WW1 and WW2. France and Germany were the driving force behind the EU and are still the principal partners. If Germany leaves, the EU falls apart.

For a long time after 1945, German foreign policy was hobbled by guilt over WW2. That is now changing and Germany is finally taking its place on the world stage commensurate with its economic power. However German politicians, even when they throw their weight around, as Merkel did in the negotiations with Greece, are always careful to portray themselves as acting in the best interest of Europe. They do not want to be seen as acting too much on a Germany first agenda which would raise the ghosts of the old 19th-20th century nationalisms.

So I can see Germany taking on an increasingly leading role in the EU and negotiating a better deal for themselves, as well as cracking the whip on all the deadbeats, like Greece, but leave the EU first and risk seeing the entire EU fall apart? I just can't see it.

[TarJak]

The madness spreads: http://www.smh.com.au/business/madness-hits-spain-as-greek-contagion-spreads-20100505-u8p2.html

[Skybird]

:dead: :dead: :dead: They will not stop before they have destroyed it all. According to reports by German papers Süddeutsche Zeitung and Financial Times Germany, a clause has been established that includes that in the future every nation of the eurozone that must pay higher interests rates on capital markets can demand to be compensated for these additonal costs - by those nations paying fewer interest rates and are net givers. It also has been decided that such nations can stop to pay back credits. Upcoming paybacks of credit tranches will be payed back by all others, but not the debtor then.

Holy cow.

This is completely uncalculatable a risk, and it will multiply the payments for Germany.

The Euro is dead rubber now. The monetary union is not worth that name, it is just a transfer union now.

Meine Fresse. :nope:

[Happy Times]

The markets will be opening and it doesnt look good.

Nothing seems to work, the faith is gone in the market for Southern Europe and Euro, next in line could be UK and US.

The most stable Eurozone countries Germany, Netherlands and Finland have to run like hell, not pay for this mess.

We will suffer badly still but less than with paying for this.
Total bill with these policies could be 500 billion for Germany and 30 billion for Finland.:dead:

[Skybird]

The finance ministers are meeting to discuss and implement a "security mechanism" that should ensure that in the future no Euro-nations go bancrupt. yesterday that included guarantees for credits worth sixty billion. Today, it already has climbed to six-hundred billion, and another assurance that the others will pay and bail out the bancruptcy candidates.

This now is the even official admission that the stability criterions have been abandoned completely, and that the Maastricht treaty in its regulations for enforcing currency stability have been completely given up. the euro is no longer a stabile, trustworthy cuirrency (if it ever was, the mistakes go more than 12 years back in time, when accepting Italy, Belgium, and later Greece into the Eurozone).

The independence of the ECB also is history now.

This all together is an invitation for even more speculators' attacks to bid on the bancruptcy of nations. the finance ministers just have agreed that ongoing attacks will be rewarded - by printing more debt money, and pushing up inflation that way, as a side-effect.

From worse to worst. And these idiots even dare to call it "stabilisation". I call it selfdestruction, and maximising damages just for keeping alive the self-deception just a little bit longer before the pot explodes into our faces with even more power.

Take me by the word - this all will create another finance crisis and economy crisis quite soon that will be even greater in scale than the one that - misleadingly - is said to just have been left behind. This time it will be made not in the US, but the EU.

Euro madness on the way. US banks still dying from the last quake. Chinese bubble building going on. British debts and deficit crisis developing. US credit card crisis mounting. Spain, Italy, Portugal. Private banking sector still attacks common interests and turns the market into a battlefield, Anglosaxon banks aiming at both the Euro and European nations, to bring both down.

Several countdowns ticking at the same time. Everybody dig yourself a deep, deep hole and take cover.

[MILLANDSON]

I doubt that Germany would pull out of the EU, since there is a lot of good things that come from being in it. I can, however, see them leaving the Euro, and the Euro being scrapped totally, within the next 5-10 years.

[Skybird]

750 billion now. Explicit German demands to leave most of that ammount to bilateral credits between states outside any EU regulated context, have been crushed by European nations - especially those being at risk. What a surrpise. Merkel says she had no other choice than to agree to this, finally. May I ask who held a weapon at her head, making her nodding with it?

Merkel already said that "We will defend the Euro, at all costs".

Well, Frau Merkel, right that is the problem.

[Rockstar]

Well there goes Germany taking it in the shorts again for someone else's problem. Maybe it's time to grease those German war machine gears again and take over Europe. Probably be done in a few weeks. U.S. is too busy elsewhere everyone else too poor or lazy to defend against.

Im not saying bring out the swastikas and start chanting better dead than red again. No, just usher in some of that good old fashion German order and discipline and good work ethic to greater germany ummm i mean, europe. right? lol