Noah's Ark found...

[SteamWake]

Well uhh consider the source of course ;)

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2949640/Noahs-Ark-found-in-Turkey.html

[AVGWarhawk]

It has always been believe that the ark was in Turkey. There is a wooden structure on that mountain. :yep:

[tater]

Fun story for the credulous.

13,000ft above sea level.

That means it requires a 13,000 foot deep flood. A back of the envelope calculation shows (assuming I didn't miss a decimal) that this requires 2 BILLION cubic kilometers of water.

The total volume of sea water on Earth is ~1.37 billion km^3. So this is in addition to that. The total ice volume is usually given as around 30 MILLION km^3.

So the BS flood concept requires a doubling or trebling of Earth's water supply, which then also vanishes.

Morons. :roll:

[AVGWarhawk]

Fun story for the credulous.

13,000ft above sea level.

That means it requires a 13,000 foot deep flood. A back of the envelope calculation shows (assuming I didn't miss a decimal) that this requires 2 BILLION cubic kilometers of water.

The total volume of sea water on Earth is ~1.37 billion km^3. So this is in addition to that. The total ice volume is usually given as around 30 MILLION km^3.

So the BS flood concept requires a doubling or trebling of Earth's water supply, which then also vanishes.

Morons. :roll:

It was of Biblical proportions as told. :03:

[TLAM Strike]

Fun story for the credulous.

13,000ft above sea level.

That means it requires a 13,000 foot deep flood. A back of the envelope calculation shows (assuming I didn't miss a decimal) that this requires 2 BILLION cubic kilometers of water.

The total volume of sea water on Earth is ~1.37 billion km^3. So this is in addition to that. The total ice volume is usually given as around 30 MILLION km^3.

So the BS flood concept requires a doubling or trebling of Earth's water supply, which then also vanishes.

Morons. :roll:

It was deposited by a stream of comets that burned up in the atmosphere, then taken away by the passage of a rogue micro black hole though the planet... :O:

[Dowly]

They claim carbon dating proves the relics are 4,800 years old — around the same time the ark was said to be afloat.

Religion in a nut shell right there.

Man 1: You know, carbon dating shows that Earth wasn't created at the time Bible gives.

Religious nut: *fingers in ears* LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!

----------------------------

Religious nut: WOOT! We found the Noah's Ark! Carbon dating matches the time period!!

Man 2: I though you didn't trus-

Religious nut: *fingers in ears* LA LA LA LA LA LA LA!

[tater]

No, the kooks say that Carbon dating only works to 5000 years. PAst that it's giving results of "god tricking us" or something.

Idiots.

[Turbografx]

Fun story for the credulous.

13,000ft above sea level.

That means it requires a 13,000 foot deep flood. A back of the envelope calculation shows (assuming I didn't miss a decimal) that this requires 2 BILLION cubic kilometers of water.

The total volume of sea water on Earth is ~1.37 billion km^3. So this is in addition to that. The total ice volume is usually given as around 30 MILLION km^3.

So the BS flood concept requires a doubling or trebling of Earth's water supply, which then also vanishes.

Morons. :roll:


God did it.

Same way he put physics on hold to stop a wooden craft of the size required to house so many animals from breaking apart.

[tater]

True, that was not really addressed here.

Here's some more simple concepts these morons will overlook:

1. 2 of each type is not a viable number of animals

2. Getting even 2 of each type first requires traveling in the boat to every corner of the earth to pick them up BEFORE the magical flood. Given that we're still discovering new species, this is funny (how many decades does the bible say Noah went around picking up animals BEFORE the 40 days of rain?

3. 40 days and night of rain? Lesse, 13k feet, times 12, divided by 40, divided by 24 hours... 162.5 inches of rain PER HOUR. 2.7 inches of rain PER MINUTE. How did they BREATHE?

ROFLMAO.

[Freiwillige]

The bible, Best storybook ever written.

[Platapus]

And how did Noah keep the salt water fish alive?

That much rain would dilute the salinity of the oceans and kill the salt water fish.

Unless it rained salt water in that case it would probably kill make the land incapable of sustaining plant life.

Speaking of plant life, what about all the terrestrial plant life that could not survive being underwater for the weeks of the flood?

It just don't add up. :nope:

I always wondered what Noah did with all that poop too? :06:

[Sledgehammer427]

40 days and night of rain? Lesse, 13k feet, times 12, divided by 40, divided by 24 hours... 162.5 inches of rain PER HOUR. 2.7 inches of rain PER MINUTE. How did they BREATHE?

:rotfl2::rotfl2:

that just made my day, and it is a good grounds for argument.

[Tribesman]

Platapus, you can find all the answers to your questions at cretinist central.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/get-answers/topic/noahs-ark
Plus you can find some real gems like "what did the dinosaurs eat on the ark".
Its quite a surprising answer as apparently the carniverous ones ate giant tortoise and exotic fish

[Castout]

It was of Biblical proportions as told. :03:

13,000 ft when the water was already receding . . . :hmmm:

[Castout]

The bible, Best storybook ever written.

Umm not necessarily true. I've found at least some of the things written to be genuinely true. But the other things that I don't know must still be taken errr with faith.

Things like the face of God which shines(and shining was an understatement as it was more like exploding with light), and that the dead not being able to remember anything including God and unable to register the passage of time either. Things like more than one author in diffrent span of time writing about the exactly the same thing . . .that later I found to be true.

One of the things I got it wrong was that I thought God was always meek and loving and it seems that God is more like strict and loving. I didn't know that people couldn't stare at God's face so I did when I had the chance while I was a kid years ago (and I thought it was just Christ and I wanted to see Jesus face I really do, the real one) ...my repeated attempt and stubbornness was met with both my eyeballs being made hurt in the end. Kinda arrogant wasn't He . . . .LOL

As I get older I hold more respect to the bible.

But then again perhaps God is not for everyone.
I just feel lucky enough to know certain things, things that made me knew that God is real. It has helped a lot in life but even with knowledge things must still be taken with faith too as no one can know God like knowing another person. If made a metaphor knowing God in this life is like touching but not seeing, like hearing but not seeing, and like seeing but not hearing and touching.

[Happy Times]

So you claim to have seen God and previously said i was rude for saying to get help for yourself?:doh:

Once someone here declared he was getting instructions from God.

Anyones beliefs dont interest or bother me as such but when someone is clearly displaying signs of mental health problems im not going to stay silent.

[CaptainHaplo]

Happy Times - so everyone that thinks they have seen God needs mental help? I see God every day - not in a physical sense - but I see the presence of the supreme in everything. People have near death experiences - and usually the descriptions are remarkably consistent.

Your entitled to your opinions - just as everyone is. And its ok to be concerned and even PM a person respectfully about them pursuing some mental health assistance if you really feel strongly. But calling someone out publicly is rather rude - and mocking someone's personal beliefs on their own experiences (which you cannot judge, not having them) - isn't necessary either.

I have met people who swear they have had experiences that I personally deem impossible. Doesn't give me the right to automatically assume they are crazy. There are any number of reasons one can interpret a personal experience, and if Castout wants to think one of his is having looked at the face of God - thats his deal. Why mock a man for his beliefs if your sure of your own? Isn't being secure in your own thoughts enough?

Lets say that your right for argument's sake - that maybe Castout has a mental problem. Does giving him grief here help fix that? Mental illness can't be helped in a forum, not will calling him out make him seek help. People who do have problems - if you really feel he does, need support and acceptance to feel safe enough to get help. Think on it my friend.

[Castout]

So you claim to have seen God and previously said i was rude for saying to get help for yourself?:doh:

Once someone here declared he was getting instructions from God.

Anyones beliefs dont interest or bother me as such but when someone is clearly displaying signs of mental health problems im not going to stay silent.


Well another mocking it's okay I didn't not anticipate it. I wrote what I wrote because I felt compelled to testify what I know. I knew the possible consequences. It's actually a very good thing being mocked for speaking the truth. It's at the other extreme of being praised for speaking a lie.

Well another person can't judge another person's experience without having full knowledge. That much is true. You jumping in to conclusion well it is not wise. . .

@CaptainHaplo
It's okay I already anticipated that kind of response. It was just a matter from whom. I certainly didn't write that to get praises or recognition or whatever. Had I wanted them I would be wise not to write about them in the first place.

and umm I didn't see God's(Jesus) face as light was coming from the direction of His face so bright it enveloped the whole figure so what I saw basically was a very very very bright white light whose source was coming from the face(at least that was what I felt) as the intensity grew the closer I stared into the face until it was overwhelming and made my eyeballs hurt like being pierced by a hundred needles in the end. And it was a looong time ago when I was in the 7th grade. Now I'm 30 years old. It was a one time event.

:DL

[Task Force]

Wow, at this rate there must be a fleet of arks. its a crock... How many other times have they found someting like this.

The entire story is completly not possiable. there are 100,000s of species of animals, people didnt even know about then. and what about black people, asian people, whites? did he bring two of them to. cause if he didnt those blacks went through one hell of a change.

[tater]

I was hoping for some sort of idiotic defense of the literal arc story. Woulda been a fun thread :arrgh!:

[Dowly]

I was hoping for some sort of idiotic defense of the literal arc story. Woulda been a fun thread :arrgh!:

Hah, me too. :DL

[AVGWarhawk]

Has anyone stopped to think that perhaps the Bible is a good 'rule book'? Lets change some words..."Ten Commandments" to "Ten Rules to Live Buy" or "Rules Set By Your Local Government" Would a different light be shed upon these 10 commandments, rules, law?

We can not just wish away the Dead Sea Scrolls and what is contained with in. Are these scrolls just an elaborate hoax?

1.The Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in eleven caves along the northwest shore of the Dead Sea between the years 1947 and 1956. The area is 13 miles east of Jerusalem and is 1300 feet below sea level. The mostly fragmented texts, are numbered according to the cave that they came out of. They have been called the greatest manuscript discovery of modern times. See a Dead Sea Scroll Jar (http://www.centuryone.com/dssjar.html).

http://www.centuryone.com/images/dsscave1.jpg 2.Only Caves 1 and 11 have produced relatively intact manuscripts. Discovered in 1952, Cave 4 produced the largest find. About 15,000 fragments from more than 500 manuscripts were found.

3. In all, scholars have identified the remains of about 825 to 870 separate scrolls.
4. The Scrolls can be divided into two categories—biblical and non-biblical. Fragments of every book of the Hebrew canon (Old Testament) have been discovered except for the book of Esther.
5. There are now identified among the scrolls, 19 copies of the Book of Isaiah, 25 copies of Deuteronomy and 30 copies of the Psalms .
6. Prophecies by Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Daniel not found in the Bible are written in the Scrolls.
7. The Isaiah Scroll, found relatively intact, is 1000 years older than any previously known copy of Isaiah. In fact, the scrolls are the oldest group of Old Testament manuscripts ever found.
8. In the Scrolls are found never before seen psalms attributed to King David and Joshua.

http://www.centuryone.com/images/torah.gif 9.There are nonbiblical writings along the order of commentaries on the OT, paraphrases that expand on the Law, rule books of the community, war conduct, thanksgiving psalms, hymnic compositions, benedictions, liturgical texts, and sapiential (wisdom) writings.
10. The Scrolls are for the most part, written in Hebrew, but there are many written in Aramaic. Aramaic was the common language of the Jews of Palestine for the last two centuries B.C. and of the first two centuries A.D. The discovery of the Scrolls has greatly enhanced our knowledge of these two languages. In addition, there are a few texts written in Greek.
11. The Scrolls appear to be the library of a Jewish sect. The library was hidden away in caves around the outbreak of the First Jewish Revolt (A.D. 66-70) as the Roman army advanced against the rebel Jews.
12. Near the caves are the ancient ruins of Qumran. They were excavated in the early 1950's and appear to be connected with the scrolls.
13. The Dead Sea Scrolls were most likely written by the Essenes during the period from about 200 B.C. to 68 C.E./A.D. The Essenes are mentioned by Josephus and in a few other sources, but not in the New testament. The Essenes were a strict Torah observant, Messianic, apocalyptic, baptist, wilderness, new covenant Jewish sect. They were led by a priest they called the "Teacher of Righteousness," who was opposed and possibly killed by the establishment priesthood in Jerusalem.
14. The enemies of the Qumran community were called the "Sons of Darkness"; they called themselves the "Sons of Light," "the poor," and members of "the Way." They thought of themselves as "the holy ones," who lived in "the house of holiness," because "the Holy Spirit" dwelt with them.
15. The last words of Joseph, Judah, Levi, Naphtali, and Amram (the father of Moses) are written down in the Scrolls.

http://www.centuryone.com/images/dsscave4.jpg 16. One of the most curious scrolls is the Copper Scroll. Discovered in Cave 3, this scroll records a list of 64 underground hiding places throughout the land of Israel. The deposits are to contain certain amounts of gold, silver, aromatics, and manuscripts. These are believed to be treasures from the Temple at Jerusalem, that were hidden away for safekeeping.
17. The Temple Scroll, found in Cave 11, is the longest scroll. Its present total length is 26.7 feet (8.148 meters). The overall length of the scroll must have been over 28 feet (8.75m).
18. The scrolls contain previously unknown stories about biblical figures such as Enoch, Abraham, and Noah. The story of Abraham includes an explanation why God asked Abraham to sacrifice his only son Isaac.
19. The scrolls are most commonly made of animal skins, but also papyrus and one of copper. They are written with a carbon-based ink, from right to left, using no punctuation except for an occasional paragraph indentation. In fact, in some cases, there are not even spaces between the words.
20. The Scrolls have revolutionized textual criticism of the Old Testament. Interestingly, now with manuscripts predating the medieval period, we find these texts in substantial agreement with the Masoretic text as well as widely variant forms.

http://www.centuryone.com/images/psalm.jpg 21. Some of the Dead Sea Scrolls actually appeared for sale on June 1, 1954 in the Wall Street Journal. The advertisement read — "The Four Dead Sea Scrolls: Biblical manuscripts dating back to at least 200 BC are for sale. This would be an ideal gift to an educational or religious institution by an individual or group. Box F206."
22. Although the Qumran community existed during the time of the ministry of Jesus, none of the Scrolls refer to Him, nor do they mention any of His follower's described in the New Testament.
23. The major intact texts, from Caves 1 & 11, were published by the late fifties and are now housed in the Shrine of the Book museum in Jerusalem.
24. Since the late fifties, about 40% of the Scrolls, mostly fragments from Cave 4, remained unpublished and were unaccessible. It wasn't until 1991, 44 years after the discovery of the first Scroll, after the pressure for publication mounted, that general access was made available to photographs of the Scrolls. In November of 1991 the photos were published by the Biblical Archaeological Society in a nonofficial edition; a computer reconstruction, based on a concordance, was announced; the Huntington Library pledged to open their microfilm files of all the scroll photographs. 25. The Dead Sea Scrolls enhance our knowledge of both Judaism and Christianity. They represent a non-rabbinic form of Judaism and provide a wealth of comparative material for New Testament scholars, including many important parallels to the Jesus movement. They show Christianity to be rooted in Judaism and have been called the evolutionary link between the two.



Discuss..........:hmmm:

[tater]

I don't think the scrolls are a hoax, but them dating to whatever period says nothing at all about the veracity of any claims they make. I can find papers and books written on the Soviet Union by (apologist) historians that are contemporary to the CCCP, but utterly wrong.

:)

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't think the scrolls are a hoax, but them dating to whatever period says nothing at all about the veracity of any claims they make. I can find papers and books written on the Soviet Union by (apologist) historians that are contemporary to the CCCP, but utterly wrong.

:)

True! We must also take into consideration the word of mouth passed from generation to generation then finally put to paper. Stories change and sometimes embellished. There is really no main claim made about the scrolls but we can not just brush it under the carpet. Are these just embellished stories to entertain? Still, it makes one ponder and sometimes makes one create a movie such as the likes of the Indian Jones movies. The Arc of the Covenent and or cup used at the last supper. As strange as the movie might be there are those that find things. You have to admit these scrolls do make one think. Many have spent a better a part of their lives studying these scroll.


Sometimes I wonder what it would be like if 1000 years from now someone finds say, Harry Potter books and says this is how it was back then. Harry was a Warlock or some such thing.

[AVGWarhawk]

Gabriels Vision in stone:

What: Three-foot tall stone inscribed in ink with 87 lines of Hebrew text describing a vision given by the angel Gabriel
When: The stone was written in the 1st century B.C. and it was discovered 8-10 years ago and sold by a Jordanian antiquities dealer to an Israeli-Swiss antiquities collector.
Where: It was found in the vicinity of the Dead Sea, possibly on the Jordanian side. Ada Yardeni: "You have got a Dead Sea Scroll on stone."
Forgery?: Even though this was not uncovered in a legal excavation, scholars believe the inscription to be authentic.
The Sensational Claim: The end of the inscription mentions a messiah who would rise in 3 days. Since the text was written before Jesus' resurrection, it explains how the story of Jesus' resurrection came to be.
The Sensational Quotation: "Resurrection after three days becomes a motif developed before Jesus, which runs contrary to nearly all scholarship. What happens in the New Testament was adopted by Jesus and his followers based on an earlier messiah story" (Israel Knohl, professor of biblical studies at Hebrew University and proponent of this theory).

[tater]

Heheh, true.

What is funny is that these so-called archeologists were even looking at 13,000 feet. As I posted above, even if you assume there was some sort of actual, historical event that would be called a "flood" by the illiterate locals of the time in that region (asia minor, eastern med, middle east)—you need to at least assume a REASONABLE event. A plausible event. Heck, all the polar ice melting while unlikely, is at least POSSIBLE. So add 30 million km^3 water to the earth, then calculate about where the sea level rises to.

Works out to 50-60 meters. Melting every ounce of ice on earth.

Looking above 50-60 meters is absurd. Any result above that is made up. And that sort of flood still assumes a radical event (and doesn't make it rain).

That sort of rise also gives lie to the notion of god exterminating everything, since it clearly would not have resulted in that, so even if such a historical flood of that extreme level—and certainly anything lesser—gives lie to the claimed plan of god in the whole thing.

The flood needs to be as deep as the mountains or sinners are left alive, and god is all powerful, so it MUST be that deep. There is no way (or evidence) of such a deep flood to have happened. Looking for proof is asking to look the fool.

[AVGWarhawk]

So, now we have a large wooden structure found in Turkey....to be sure, this wooden structure was found years ago. I remember seeing a movie on it as a kid. I'm now 44. Turkey forbid anyone from going to look at this structure. There were photos taken by air. There was much speculation. Furthermore, we need to wonder how this very large wooden structure arrived 13000 feet up on a mountain. That in itself is an oddity. Certainly draws anyone attention. We just can not brush it off as some shepards shack.

[AVGWarhawk]

Heheh, true.

What is funny is that these so-called archeologists were even looking at 13,000 feet. As I posted above, even if you assume there was some sort of actual, historical event that would be called a "flood" by the illiterate locals of the time in that region (asia minor, eastern med, middle east)—you need to at least assume a REASONABLE event. A plausible event. Heck, all the polar ice melting while unlikely, is at least POSSIBLE. So add 30 million km^3 water to the earth, then calculate about where the sea level rises to.

Works out to 50-60 meters. Melting every ounce of ice on earth.

Looking above 50-60 meters is absurd. Any result above that is made up. And that sort of flood still assumes a radical event (and doesn't make it rain).

That sort of rise also gives lie to the notion of god exterminating everything, since it clearly would not have resulted in that, so even if such a historical flood of that extreme level—and certainly anything lesser—gives lie to the claimed plan of god in the whole thing.

The flood needs to be as deep as the mountains or sinners are left alive, and god is all powerful, so it MUST be that deep. There is no way (or evidence) of such a deep flood to have happened. Looking for proof is asking to look the fool.

But we can not always explain things away scientifically. We are talking about a being that according to the Bible is superior in all. One that creates hail stones, pillars of fire, burning bushes, turns a city to ashes, creates all living creatures. Seems to be a lot of embellishment. Perhaps it is, perhaps not. The 'perhaps not' is the statement that drives the folks who do not wish to explain away scientifically. Sometimes being the fool is not always a concern of those willing to look! I find there is more evidence to support that some of these things did happen. These people did walk the earth and create these writings. I can not help but think the story changed as it was passed by word of mouth until it was written by the author. At any rate, it is very intriguing.

[tater]

Since fossils are all from an earth only a few thousand years old, we should see a radiation of fossil remains from Turkey, right? How long did it take the marsupials to walk from there to Australia? Where did the Koala get food?

LOL.

The bible story is very clear that the raining caused the flood, and when the rain stopped the floods receded. So we're back to that 162 inches per hour nonsense I posted above.

It would be interesting to calculate the number of genera of animals required, then figure out how long it would simply take to muck their stalls. There were claimed to be what, 6 humans... a lot of sh*t to shovel, might not be time in the day for any other activity :)

[AVGWarhawk]

Ah, you are of the scientific mind and look at things scientifically. That is good because were would be without scientific minds? You ask where the koala got food. Perhaps from the same place the men whos nets were void of fish all of sudden were laden with fish. We will have to ask Peter how this fish got there.




Personally, I do not know what to think. I do like to keep an open mind because of things like the Dead Sea Scrolls and Gabriel Vision stone. I do however feel that the Shroad of Turin is not authentic.

Edit: Sorry but about the sh!t...shovel it out the window! :DL

[tater]

13,000 feet of water? Where did it go?

I know, I know, magic.

What about all the unique critters around the world. How did they get to the ark in the first place?

Magic again, I guess.

Anyone wanting to claim they are proving something to the rest of us needs to follow the rules. That means a rational explanation sans magic. "God melted the ice caps and flooded the Earth" at least only involves the one bit of magic, we can look for the rest (and an ark sitting 60m above sea level, tops).

[AVGWarhawk]

Magic for lack of a better word? Perhaps. Miracle for a better word? Not sure. Scientific or not we can not dispell that the Bible has been a part of history for a very very long time. There are many pieces of evidence that something did happen and these people existed at one time.

Even if this structure is not the ark then just what is it? From what I understand it is huge. Why is it 13000 feet up on a mountain and how did it get there? This has to spark your interest! You believe it is not the ark. No problem there at all. The proof is up to the man that has been inside taking video. I have to admit it gained my interest. More so because I knew about this structure (as well as others) being on the mountian in Turkey. It has been described by the locals as a vessel. It gets my brain juices flowing as to what it is. :hmmm:

[tater]

Assume that the idiot "archeologists" in the OP story are right on the date. 4800 years ago. That's 2800 BCE.

The flood killed every single human on Earth except Noah and pals.

Odd, we have records from many civilizations that continue right through that period.

Not just stuff that has been dated, actual written records where they date it themselves. Pharaohs, etc.

2800 BCE is right before the pyramids started getting built.

Oops?

BTW, given the requirement of literally inches per minute of rain nonstop for 40 days, did Noah have enough people to man the pumps? They had to have chain pumps, right? Far better built (and smaller, less loaded) wooden ships virtually always leaked when worked. A 40 day gale, of literally "biblical" proportions? Like twice the worst downpour ever recorded in history, only for 40 unstopping days?

Wonder how they worked the ship, too, it's not like steering would be possible. Sea anchor, perhaps.

:roll:

[Turbografx]

Assume that the idiot "archeologists" in the OP story are right on the date. 4800 years ago. That's 2800 BCE.

The flood killed every single human on Earth except Noah and pals.

Odd, we have records from many civilizations that continue right through that period.

Not just stuff that has been dated, actual written records where they date it themselves. Pharaohs, etc.

2800 BCE is right before the pyramids started getting built.

Oops?

BTW, given the requirement of literally inches per minute of rain nonstop for 40 days, did Noah have enough people to man the pumps? They had to have chain pumps, right? Far better built (and smaller, less loaded) wooden ships virtually always leaked when worked. A 40 day gale, of literally "biblical" proportions? Like twice the worst downpour ever recorded in history, only for 40 unstopping days?

Wonder how they worked the ship, too, it's not like steering would be possible. Sea anchor, perhaps.

:roll:

Yeah, the story is completely bogus unless you justify everything by just saying "God did it".

Animals? God.
Water? God.
Food? God.
Shoveling the ****e? God.
Physics? God.
Re-population? God.
Building/manning the Ark? God.
The FACT that other cultures survived the supposed period and indeed, even pre-date the bible? Uh...God?

[AVGWarhawk]

Assume that the idiot "archeologists" in the OP story are right on the date. 4800 years ago. That's 2800 BCE.

The flood killed every single human on Earth except Noah and pals.

Odd, we have records from many civilizations that continue right through that period.

Not just stuff that has been dated, actual written records where they date it themselves. Pharaohs, etc.

2800 BCE is right before the pyramids started getting built.

Oops?



The Bible has it oddities. The Bible shows Noah living upwards of 950 years I believe. Many things in the Bible do not make sense. We can not assume these actual written records from other civilizations are in fact correct concerning events and times these events occurred. Are assuming the dates of the Pyramids creation is dead on?

I do not believe we can go by todays written Bible because of the influence of man to impose, embellish and creating their own ideas as to what happened. Again, word of mouth distorts over a period of time as it is passed from person to person. We would have to reference the oldest known text and that being the Dead Sea Scrolls I believe. These are tangible evidence as the Great Pyramids are tangible evidence. Both not showing a actual date that I'm aware of.


BTW, given the requirement of literally inches per minute of rain nonstop for 40 days, did Noah have enough people to man the pumps? They had to have chain pumps, right? Far better built (and smaller, less loaded) wooden ships virtually always leaked when worked. A 40 day gale, of literally "biblical" proportions? Like twice the worst downpour ever recorded in history, only for 40 unstopping days?

Wonder how they worked the ship, too, it's not like steering would be possible. Sea anchor, perhaps.



You have gone back to science were science does not play a large part concerning the Bible. At least as I interperate the book. The stories concern a superior entity that can make anything happen. Noah was instructed to build an ark. Noah was given instruction on how to construct the ark and what the dimensions should be. All the ark needed to do was float. It did not need to navigate or steer at all. Just float. Sea anchor? For what? The vessel was being overseen by this superior entity according to the book. You mention rain fail measured in recorded history, is the not the Bible recorded history? It is really a fallacy or fantasy? The first attempt at a Harry Potter trilogy? :hmmm:

[tater]

Actually, the biblical story claims the entire Earth was flooded 15 cubits deep.

Assuming the largest value possible for a cubit—say 2 feet—that's a 30 foot depth!

On the one hand, this is an entirely reasonable number. Yeah! As I said, melting all the ice would maybe raise sea level 60 meters. 10 meters might easily happen from an impact event in a polar region. Would also perhaps make rain!

On the other hand, of course, is that 10 meters of water kills some coastal people and a few critters. That's it.

So if the flood was as described sort of, then the whole magical god part is bogus because it could not possibly have had the goal god desired—genocide.

That's the goal, right, murdering every man, woman, and baby on earth save Noah and pals?

What did the creatures eat after they got off the boat? The world was wiped clean. They'd need to wait for seeds to re-grow all the plant material (after being soaked in brackish water). What about all the carnivores? They need to wait for the population of prey animals to get large enough. Anyone believing this is clearly not thinking clearly.

They are just "stories," taking this stuff literally is absurd.

[AVGWarhawk]

I believe the same goal as Sodom and Gohmorra. God pulled a mulligan and started over because the folks had turned away from him. Noah was the only one that apparently had the virtue God was desiring in his people. So the story goes....

[Fr8monkey]

The story of Noah and the rest of the Bible are allegories... Stories to 'tell around the campfire'. That is all. Religion was created by humans to control the masses. Since the leaders (priests if you will) had orders from God then anything that happened that those leaders didn't like was the fault of the non-believers.

I believe the same goal as Sodom and Gohmorra. God pulled a mulligan and started over because the folks had turned away from him. Noah was the only one that apparently had the virtue God was desiring in his people. So the story goes....

So the "perfect un-erring" God that made everything 'good' screwed up and had to go with version 2.0 and 3.0?

[tater]

I believe the same goal as Sodom and Gohmorra. God pulled a mulligan and started over because the folks had turned away from him. Noah was the only one that apparently had the virtue God was desiring in his people. So the story goes....

A mulligan is sure a nice way of saying "genocidal mass murder."

Regardless, there is direct historical evidence of societies around the globe not noticing any flood during the widest possible date range for the Noah story (date should be very precise for any biblical literalists since they can likely narrow it to a day of the week with the begats and so forth).

[Task Force]

Hmm, so if I understand the story right. and noah and crew were only acouple of people... Then WERE ALL INBREEDERS!!!:o

plus the fact if the water covered up EVERYTHING, then how did the indians/ germanic people/ asians survive throught it. did they build arcs also... lol

[Fr8monkey]

Hmm, so if I understand the story right. and noah and crew were only acouple of people... Then WERE ALL INBREEDERS!!!:o
So were Adam and EVE... Where did Cain and Able get chicks?

[tater]

taskforce, that'd be true except for every other civilization on earth passed through the time period of "the great flood" in the Noah story without noticing it happened.

Even walking distance away in Egypt, lol.

[AVGWarhawk]

The story of Noah and the rest of the Bible are allegories... Stories to 'tell around the campfire'. That is all. Religion was created by humans to control the masses. Since the leaders (priests if you will) had orders from God then anything that happened that those leaders didn't like was the fault of the non-believers.

I tend to believe this as well. But I also believe the Bible does contain things for the living. The Ten Commandments were probably law at the time. Seem fine by me to live by the Ten Commandments. Read them over and see that the ten are a good formula for living. IMO anyway. But then one thinks...why are the Dead Sea Scrolls buried in these caves all these years. If these stories were just a 'yarn' over a bladder full of wine why bother writing them down? Did these guys want to get published and start book tours? Well, no. These were writings of importance. We can not simply dismiss the writings as another Dr. Seuss' "There is a God in my wolg."

[Task Force]

taskforce, that'd be true except for every other civilization on earth passed through the time period of "the great flood" in the Noah story without noticing it happened.

Even walking distance away in Egypt, lol.

lol, yep, but everytime you try to tell the to most christians (99.8%) that they are like... well, the bible said it, so it has to be true.

funny thing is... when you look at the hubble deep space pics, you see hunderds of galaxys, each could have one or numerous planets with life on it. on different periods of evolution. with different gods, and books similar (or kind of) to the bible. each with its own story, rules, ect.

[AVGWarhawk]

A mulligan is sure a nice way of saying "genocidal mass murder."

Regardless, there is direct historical evidence of societies around the globe not noticing any flood during the widest possible date range for the Noah story (date should be very precise for any biblical literalists since they can likely narrow it to a day of the week with the begats and so forth).

Sure is was genocide. No argument there. I understand what you are saying about no other society mentioning the flood if it did in fact occur. I'm not entirely convinced the timeline/dates are accurate. From what I'm gathering carbon dating is not all that precise either. So I take a grain of salt on timelines. Do we really know how old the earth is?

[AVGWarhawk]

lol, yep, but everytime you try to tell the to most christians (99.8%) that they are like... well, the bible said it, so it has to be true.

funny thing is... when you look at the hubble deep space pics, you see hunderds of galaxys, each could have one or numerous planets with life on it. on different periods of evolution. with different gods, and books similar (or kind of) to the bible. each with its own story, rules, ect.

Now wait just a minute....sight unseen you believe each galaxy 'could' have another life form yet sight seen of Dead Sea Scrolls that the writing are from a mad man or just a good story book? None of this 'could' have happened? I think I would like more evidence on the alien lifeforms other than some mutilated cows.

[Task Force]

ya know if the flood was gods version of genocideish thing "the non belivers"... then he would actualy (not to be funny) a worse person than Hitler. Instead of a religion/ race, he was trying to kill of a entire civilization, almost an entire population. Because they were "non belivers"

[tater]

Anything written down without a publishing deal is the word of god?

Was Harry Potter revelation before Rowling signed the contract? Or the Hobbit when it was just for his son?

Other religions have their stories recorded, too. What's the formula for saying Rama's story is BS, but the Noah is true?

If people want to believe something, that's fine. But if you make a claim that you can prove it's true, then you need to prove it. You need to explain how everyone and every animal on earth died from a 30 foot (or less) flood.

You need to explain how no other civilizations with writing recorded the event when you say it happened—or move your date. In the latter case, that likely messes up all the other, idiotic literalism.

So taken as a moral story, you're fine. Taken as historical truth, you'll face an impossible task to prove the dumb story is true when literally nothing about it is even plausible.

What's the moral, BTW, that god—who knew how we'd turn out when he made us—decided after the fact (instead of when he made us knowing he'd also make the flood) to murder everyone slowly for being wicked? He then allowed us to repopulate so we could continue being wicked? Got it.

[AVGWarhawk]

ya know if the flood was gods version of genocide... then he would actualy (not to be funny) a worse person than Hitler. Instead of a religion/ race, he was trying to kill of a entire civilization, almost an entire population. Because they were "non belivers"


Yes sir, one could look at that way. I find it interesting that during WW2 many religious artifacts were taken by the Nazi.

[tater]

Now wait just a minute....sight unseen you believe each galaxy 'could' have another life form yet sight seen of Dead Sea Scrolls that the writing are from a mad man or just a good story book? None of this 'could' have happened? I think I would like more evidence on the alien lifeforms other than some mutilated cows.

Life elsewhere is statistically very likely.

Language is written daily in vast quantities, what % is divine?

I'd be willing to bet more words are written today—and I mean April 28, 2010—than all human history up until the dead sea scrolls. So we must have divine stuff written daily.

I can understand interest in old documents, but I'm unsure what divine attachment you are making to them. How are they different than anything written this very morning by a preacher someplace?

[Task Force]

Now wait just a minute....sight unseen you believe each galaxy 'could' have another life form yet sight seen of Dead Sea Scrolls that the writing are from a mad man or just a good story book? None of this 'could' have happened? I think I would like more evidence on the alien lifeforms other than some mutilated cows.

dont get what your saying but I will decypher...

1 I said there could be planets with life that have there own society, and culture just like us. and there own version of religion, with a prophet/god in there image, hence the human "god" which is surspose to be in Human image.

2 How do we know there arent aliens, they dont have to be men with big heads and eyes comeing down to mutilate cows. They might be behind us in tech, they might be above us. the universe is so big, that for them to be able to travel here, they would have to travel millions of years, just to reach here. fact is, the universe is SO huge, for there to be no life other than us seems impossiable.

Gods are a good way to explain science, the greeks used gods to explain things they didnt understand, the romans also. How do we know when god started becomeing known, that was how are creation, are reason for being, and are death was expleined.

[AVGWarhawk]

Anything written down without a publishing deal is the word of god?


No sir. I stated these writings must have been important writings to be put in caves for safekeeping. I will liken these to say your will or insurance paperwork that you would put in a safe deposit box.

[Fr8monkey]

I tend to believe this as well. But I also believe the Bible does contain things for the living. The Ten Commandments were probably law at the time. Seem fine by me to live by the Ten Commandments. Read them over and see that the ten are a good formula for living. IMO anyway. But then one thinks...why are the Dead Sea Scrolls buried in these caves all these years. If these stories were just a 'yarn' over a bladder full of wine why bother writing them down? Did these guys want to get published and start book tours? Well, no. These were writings of importance. We can not simply dismiss the writings as another Dr. Seuss' "There is a God in my wolg."

+1 AVG.

I think the 10 Commandments were law in the tribes of Israel before being united.

I saw a documentary last year that followed the idea that the writers of the Dead Sea scrolls were an apocalyptic faction of Judaism. They split off from the regular Torahic teachings and followed a belief that the world was coming to an end and built a fortress in the area to preach their teachings. Them the Romans or the Israelite (I can't remember which) crushed out their faction because it was inciting out and out rebellion. That is when they buried the scrolls to keep them from being destroyed.

EDIT: Found some info here (http://www.vindy.com/news/2010/apr/24/timeless-teachings/?newswatch).

[AVGWarhawk]

dont get what your saying but I will decypher...

1 I said there could be planets with life that have there own society, and culture just like us. and there own version of religion, with a prophet/god in there image, hence the human "god" which is surspose to be in Human image.

2 How do we know there isnt aliens, they dont have to be men with big heads and eyes comeing down to mutilate cows. They might be behind us in tech, they might be above us. the universe is so big, that for them to be able to travel here, they would have to travel millions of years, just to reach here.

I understand you said "could". That's all good. Just as I say the events in the Bible could have occurred and this superior being called God could have existed or still exists.

Your #2. How do we know there isn't aliens? We don't. The same way we do not know emphatically that these events in the Bible did occur. We don't know if these events did occur. We only go by written scrolls found deep in a cave.

[tater]

No sir. I stated these writings must have been important writings to be put in caves for safekeeping. I will liken these to say your will or insurance paperwork that you would put in a safe deposit box.

Important to whom? The guy that wrote them?

I'm sure we can find some loon pushing a shopping cart who hides his crazy manifestos in secret places, too.

That they were hidden away says exactly nothing about their importance. Maybe there was a sandstorm, and the author hid in a cave, then needed to walk out as light as possible in the hops of surviving, etc. Who knows.

Even if the author(s) thought it was the revealed truth, that again tells us zero of the veracity of it. Koresh thought his rantings were true, did he not? Smith's transcriptions of the golden plates are therefore true, right? Or Buddhist writings, or Hindu? How about the literal truth that is the Koran and Hadith? All true?

[AVGWarhawk]

+1 AVG.

I think the 10 Commandments were law in the tribes of Israel before being united.

I saw a documentary last year that followed the idea that the writers of the Dead Sea scrolls were an apocalyptic faction of Judaism. They split off from the regular Torahic teachings and followed a belief that the world was coming to an end and built a fortress in the area to preach their teachings. Them the Romans or the Israelite (I can't remember which) crushed out their faction because it wes rocking the boat and inciting out and out rebellion. That is when they buried the scrolls to keep them from being destroyed.

I do not portend to know everything about the scrolls, ark, Gabriel Vision or any of it. These are items that do intrigue me quite a bit. I'm not alone in that notion of how intriguing these are. Nothing more and just some conversation with the member here.

But as I stated, I believe the 10 commandments are a form of law or rules created way back when. These seem to work even today.

[Task Force]

Aliens, are living orginisms not natrual to are planet. Now think of space. that like I said before is a huge place. now, theres three ways to think about.

1 we are a mistake, and we are the only ones to exist in all existance. out of every lightyear of space.

2 we are one of many civilizations at different levels of evolution, and not the only ones, but due to the massive size of space we all are cut off.

3 God.

I myself believe number 2.

[tater]

I understand you said "could". That's all good. Just as I say the events in the Bible could have occurred and this superior being called God could have existed or still exists.

Totally different.

If you claim that an alien ship hovered over the White House at noon yesterday, and I had news footage, pictures, and accounts from all kinds of people during that noon period and none had seen it, then I'd say it didn't happen.

If you said a UFO hovered over the space that is now the WH 50,000 years ago before there were any people around, I'd ask how you knew, but I could not say either way if it happened or not.

The bible is either true, or it's not true. If true, then a flood wiped out all of humanity except one family 4800 years ago, and there should be proof. For example all the civilizations on earth during that period should disappear instead of the same king being there the year before the flood, then after the flood.

The bible is stating (if taken literally) that X, Y, and Z happened. If any of that is untrue, then we can say the story is not true.

[SteamWake]

Stephen Hawkins agrees, however he warns not to encourage them :smug:

He concludes that trying to make contact with alien races is “a little too risky”. He said: “If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn’t turn out very well for the Native Americans.”He concludes that trying to make contact with alien races is “a little too risky”. He said: “If aliens ever visit us, I think the outcome would be much as when Christopher Columbus first landed in America, which didn’t turn out very well for the Native Americans.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/science/space/article7107207.ece

[tater]

Note also that all the fanciful stories in the bible make perfect sense if taken as stories of LOCAL events, by local people. The flood was regional, perhaps a single river valley. It only gets silly when made a worldwide event that kills everyone. Maybe it killed all Noah's neighbors. To an illiterate who has never been more than 10 miles from home, a regional event might well be world wide. All the animals on any ark might have been just the stuff around the farm, lol.

[Turbografx]

The stories concern a superior entity that can make anything happen. Noah was instructed to build an ark. Noah was given instruction on how to construct the ark and what the dimensions should be. All the ark needed to do was float. It did not need to navigate or steer at all. Just float. Sea anchor? For what? The vessel was being overseen by this superior entity according to the book.

The problem is, how could a handful of men (and women) build such a large ship of wood? Especially in the Palestine where good ship timber cannot be found like in Europe.

Not withstanding the labor and time needed to log the wood, season it, shape it and build the Ark, a ship of that size can not be made of wood, the material is not suitable for the load.

So if you have God controlling the ship, God providing the food and water, God keeping the ship intact and afloat, why not go one more step and just have God build the thing in the first place? Why not just give it to Noah.

Hell, why not just vanish all the wicked people? Why the rain? If he can produce and remove water at will, create a world even, surely he can vanish a bunch of sodomites.

[Task Force]

Plus, the fact that a ship made out of wood like the arc if I understand can't be over a certian size or it will start to fall apart. the arc would also to be wide, so It wouldnt flip over, im sure the sea wouldnt be perfectly calm if there was a storm pouring rain. modern ships can be torn apart from storms like this, sunk by there force, the ark was made of wood, In a large storm it would have probably been torn apart, and being that it wasnt powered/ steerable It would be able to keep a certian heading and more than likely capsized.

Now the arc would have to be HUGE, bigger than/the size of a modern crude carrier. and if you have ever seen one... They are Enormous.

[tater]

If I were to make up a religion this year, there would be some obvious things I'd do. I think anyone making up a religion would do these things.

I would not, for example, invent a cosmology that says that the Earth is literally built like this:
http://paradelle.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/turtle-earth.jpg

Everyone would instantly call me a kook because we know the earth doesn't look like that.

If my cosmology looked like modern, scientific cosmology, but claimed that god created the universe in a flash of comprehension, knowing at creation that humans would evolve to see his hand, then worship him, you'd have a tough time arguing with me.

All the religions make sense when looked at from the time in which they were made up. You could make almost any silly claim, who'd know?

tater

[AVGWarhawk]

Important to whom? The guy that wrote them?

I'm sure we can find some loon pushing a shopping cart who hides his crazy manifestos in secret places, too.

That they were hidden away says exactly nothing about their importance. Maybe there was a sandstorm, and the author hid in a cave, then needed to walk out as light as possible in the hops of surviving, etc. Who knows.

Even if the author(s) thought it was the revealed truth, that again tells us zero of the veracity of it. Koresh thought his rantings were true, did he not? Smith's transcriptions of the golden plates are therefore true, right? Or Buddhist writings, or Hindu? How about the literal truth that is the Koran and Hadith? All true?


Then can we say all previous writings down to the outline of hands and animals on cave walls were something from a lunatic? Certainly not. As far as hiding these scolls in a cave...these were spread out over more than a handful of caves. Some were written in Greek. One scroll contained areas of hidden jewels and other items. I can not believe these was an elaborate scheme by a lunatic of the time.

[AVGWarhawk]

If I were to make up a religion this year, there would be some obvious things I'd do. I think anyone making up a religion would do these things.

I would not, for example, invent a cosmology that says that the Earth is literally built like this:
http://paradelle.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/turtle-earth.jpg

Everyone would instantly call me a kook because we know the earth doesn't look like that.

If my cosmology looked like modern, scientific cosmology, but claimed that god created the universe in a flash of comprehension, knowing at creation that humans would evolve to see his hand, then worship him, you'd have a tough time arguing with me.

All the religions make sense when looked at from the time in which they were made up. You could make almost any silly claim, who'd know?

tater


Check out the spaghetti religion!

http://www.venganza.org/

[tater]

Then can we say all previous writings down to the outline of hands and animals on cave walls were something from a lunatic? Certainly not. As far as hiding these scolls in a cave...these were spread out over more than a handful of caves. Some were written in Greek. One scroll contained areas of hidden jewels and other items. I can not believe these was an elaborate scheme by a lunatic of the time.

Who said lunatic? I said a lunatic might also hide things. Being hidden doesn't say squat about truth.

They could have been written by a king, who cares? That doesn't make them TRUE any more than any other writing is true.

[tater]

Check out the spaghetti religion!

http://www.venganza.org/

No thanks, I'm sort of an anti-theist. I remain agnostic on deism for lack of data.

Theism is not only believing in god, but that god messes with people, and that some people get to know what he THINKS. Deism is the notion that someone might have pulled the trigger to make the universe. I will continue to not believe that until proved true, but I think that theism is far more strange since all the revealed truths are so very kooky, and none stand up to scrutiny taken literally.

I'm sorta with Epicurus (this is usually attributed to him, though whoever wrote it it's sensible):
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

[AVGWarhawk]

The problem is, how could a handful of men (and women) build such a large ship of wood? Especially in the Palestine where good ship timber cannot be found like in Europe.

Not withstanding the labor and time needed to log the wood, season it, shape it and build the Ark, a ship of that size can not be made of wood, the material is not suitable for the load.

So if you have God controlling the ship, God providing the food and water, God keeping the ship intact and afloat, why not go one more step and just have God build the thing in the first place? Why not just give it to Noah.

Hell, why not just vanish all the wicked people? Why the rain? If he can produce and remove water at will, create a world even, surely he can vanish a bunch of sodomites.

Labor aside, Noah built the ark in as the word on the nets shows...98 years. It is said in the Bible that God instructed him to use Gopher wood. Not sure why nor know were he got it. To be sure, I believe the wood is suitible for the load. According to the Bible God did kill the wicked people using water. He did it again in the city of Sodom and Gohmorra. Pillars of salt IIRC. :hmmm:

[AVGWarhawk]

Who said lunatic? I said a lunatic might also hide things. Being hidden doesn't say squat about truth.

They could have been written by a king, who cares? That doesn't make them TRUE any more than any other writing is true.


That is true but someone went to great lengths to hide these writings. I find that intriguing and want to know why? As you can see below, I'm not alone.

<H1>The World of the Scrolls

In 1947, young Bedouin shepherds, searching for a stray goat in the Judean Desert, entered a long-untouched cave and found jars filled with ancient scrolls. That initial discovery by the Bedouins yielded seven scrolls and began a search that lasted nearly a decade and eventually produced thousands of scroll fragments from eleven caves. During those same years, archaeologists searching for a habitation close to the caves that might help identify the people who deposited the scrolls, excavated the Qumran ruin, a complex of structures located on a barren terrace between the cliffs where the caves are found and the Dead Sea. Within a fairly short time after their discovery, historical, paleographic, and linguistic evidence, as well as carbon-14 dating, established that the scrolls and the Qumran ruin dated from the third century B.C.E. to 68 C.E. They were indeed ancient! Coming from the late Second Temple Period, a time when Jesus of Nazareth lived, they are older than any other surviving biblical manuscripts by almost one thousand years.
Since their discovery nearly half a century ago, the scrolls and the identity of the nearby settlement have been the object of great scholarly and public interest, as well as heated debate and controversy. Why were the scrolls hidden in the caves? Who placed them there? Who lived in Qumran? Were its inhabitants responsible for the scrolls and their presence in the caves? Of what significance are the scrolls to Judaism and Christianity?
</H1>

[AVGWarhawk]

I'm sorta with Epicurus (this is usually attributed to him, though whoever wrote it it's sensible):
Quote:
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?


Now that is very interesting tater. I will have to dig into this later.

[Turbografx]

To be sure, I believe the wood is suitible for the load. No wood can accommodate a ship of that size.


According to the Bible God did kill the wicked people using water. He did it again in the city of Sodom and Gohmorra. Pillars of salt IIRC. :hmmm:

I don't mean kill or remove, I mean vanish just *poof* gone. Save a lot of trouble.

[frau kaleun]

http://paradelle.files.wordpress.com/2009/09/turtle-earth.jpg

Everyone would instantly call me a kook because we know the earth doesn't look like that.


Well of course the world is not a hemisphere carried on the backs of four elephants riding a giant cosmic turtle.

It's actually a disc carried on the backs of four elephants riding a giant cosmic turtle.

[krashkart]

Well of course the world is not a hemisphere carried on the backs of four elephants riding a giant cosmic turtle.

It's actually a disc carried on the backs of four elephants riding a giant cosmic turtle.

Dang! I thought the world was a bowl of bagel dogs on a TV tray. :hmmm:

[tater]

Well of course the world is not a hemisphere carried on the backs of four elephants riding a giant cosmic turtle.

It's actually a disc carried on the backs of four elephants riding a giant cosmic turtle.

I know it's certainly not a sphere, I have played SH4 enough to know that is true :)

[Oberon]

Well of course the world is not a hemisphere carried on the backs of four elephants riding a giant cosmic turtle.

It's actually a disc carried on the backs of four elephants riding a giant cosmic turtle.

:yep::yep::yep::rock:

[Task Force]

:yep::yep::yep::rock:

+1:D see, the earth isnt a complete circle.

[tater]

http://www.smbc-comics.com/comics/20081128.gif



http://zs1.smbc-comics.com/comics/20080207.gif



http://zs1.smbc-comics.com/comics/20080514.gif

[AngusJS]

God pulled a mulligan and started over because the folks had turned away from him. Noah was the only one that apparently had the virtue God was desiring in his people. So the story goes....

Why did starting over involve killing almost all living things on the planet? Had the entire animal kingdom turned from god? Were there sinful dogs and cats that just had to be killed? Because they were exterminated along with almost all people (including infants, who apparently managed to turn away from god even before they could learn to talk).

And there's the method of the slaughter, too. God could have just snapped its fingers and killed everything instantaneously and painlessly, but apparently decided that making billions of organisms suffer needlessly would be much more entertaining.

Seem fine by me to live by the Ten Commandments. Read them over and see that the ten are a good formula for living. IMO anyway. Commandments 1 - 4 apply only to religious practices, and have no moral merit. Why are almost half the commandments wasted on this?

Commandment 2's text includes the warning that god will punish your children to the third and fourth generations for your "crime" of worshiping an idol. Why punish innocent people? At any rate, I guess all those Hindus and Buddhists are in deep trouble.

Commandment 3 institutes speech-crime. Out of all the possible laws that could have been commanded, out of all the potential good that could have been done, god chose to give us this law, a prohibition on speech?

Commandment 10 institutes thought-crime. It doesn't matter if you don't hurt anyone in any way - if you think certain thoughts, you're breaking god's rules. And since coveting other people's stuff is kind of the driving force behind consumer capitalism, we're all in deep trouble.

But what's worse is what wasn't included in the commandments: no prohibition of rape, assault, torture, slavery, etc... Isn't it odd how this "top ten" list doesn't say anything about them?

Imagine how much better things might have turned out if slavery had been proscribed. But no, instead we're told to not work on the sabbath. Way to prioritize, god!

But then one thinks...why are the Dead Sea Scrolls buried in these caves all these years. If these stories were just a 'yarn' over a bladder full of wine why bother writing them down?So the Egyptian Book of the Dead must be true to some extent too, right?

Or is it possible that people can write things down which they think are true, but which in fact are not?

[AngusJS]

He did it again in the city of Sodom and Gohmorra. Pillars of salt IIRC. :hmmm: No no no, get your divine killing straight. :D God destroyed the cities with fire and brimstone. He turned Lot's wife into salt for the crime of looking over her shoulder at the destruction.

Or, according to apologists, Lot's wife just happened to turn to salt at that moment, and god had nothing to do with it (kind of like when Elisha cursed some kids in god's name and two bears immediately appeared and tore 42 of them to pieces - that had nothing to do with god either).

[CaptainHaplo]

Angus - actually #8 and #10 both apply to rape, etc. To rape a woman is to steal from her - her dignity, her body, etc. If she is married - your also taking something from your neighbor (as in your fellow man - not necessarily the guy next door) that is not yours.

Slavery - while allowed in both the Old and New Testaments - could be seen as stealing the freedom of another, and thus would violate commandment #8.

Also - if you don't want something from someone else - which is prohibited by commandment #10 - what purpose would you have for torturing someone, raping someone, or putting them into slavery? #8 and #10 are actually very clever catch-alls - they even apply to psychotic people because to do anything TO anyone without there consent it so in some way take from them - be it their freedom, their right to not feel pain inflicted by you, etc.

While judeao-xtianity has its moral flaws, the commandments themselves, if adhered to strictly - would keep just about any morally reprehensible act from ever occuring. The fact that the people at the time failed to use the strictest of interpretations is one reason why the bible then said "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".

[frau kaleun]

Actually the good old Golden Rule - simply stated, treat other people the way you want to be treated, and don't do things to them that you wouldn't want done to you - pretty much covers all of it.

I have found it to be the most fundamental truth "revealed" in just about all religious traditions, insofar as anything of universal value is revealed at all. At least in the mystical branches of most religions, which are the ones that value the authority of individual spiritual experience over simply "doing what you're told" based on what somebody else claims to have experienced last week or last millennium.

I think the New Testament points to this when it has Jesus narrow down the commandments to a mere two, of which the so-called Golden Rule was one. Stick to that and all the other rules and regulations about "good social behavior" are irrelevant - provided one can stick to it as a matter of course and is not ruled instead by motivations that make doing so impossible.

The individual spiritual experience that makes it possible (or at least easier to do) is referred to in the writings of ancient India as the realization of "tat tvam asi" - Thou Art That. It is a realization of the oneness of all creation. You are that person you did a bad thing to. You are that person you did a good thing to. And vice versa. This realization is the foundation of human compassion. It's the opening of the heart chakra, it's the second birth, call it whatever you want. It's the birth of the truly compassionate heart, and the opening of it to others until their joy and their suffering becomes your joy and suffering. When another's suffering causes you to suffer in equal measure, why in the world would you knowingly be the cause of it? Of course you do to others what you would have done to you, because when you do it to others it is being done to you. Thou Art That.

Whether or not Noah built a freakin' ark really only matters if your entire spiritual existence depends on the absolute veracity of stories that other people have told about what some other people may or may not have experienced. I'll take my own experience, it's no more or less imperfect and incomplete than anyone else's.

@Oberon - P.S. THE TURTLE MOVES!!

[UnderseaLcpl]

Actually the good old Golden Rule - simply stated, treat other people the way you want to be treated, and don't do things to them that you wouldn't want done to you - pretty much covers all of it.

I have found it to be the most fundamental truth "revealed" in just about all religious traditions, insofar as anything of universal value is revealed at all. At least in the mystical branches of most religions, which are the ones that value the authority of individual spiritual experience over simply "doing what you're told" based on what somebody else claims to have experienced last week or last millennium.

I think the New Testament points to this when it has Jesus narrow down the commandments to a mere two, of which the so-called Golden Rule was one. Stick to that and all the other rules and regulations about "good social behavior" are irrelevant - provided one can stick to it as a matter of course and is not ruled instead by motivations that make doing so impossible.

The individual spiritual experience that makes it possible (or at least easier to do) is referred to in the writings of ancient India as the realization of "tat tvam asi" - Thou Art That. It is a realization of the oneness of all creation. You are that person you did a bad thing to. You are that person you did a good thing to. And vice versa. This realization is the foundation of human compassion. It's the opening of the heart chakra, it's the second birth, call it whatever you want. It's the birth of the truly compassionate heart, and the opening of it to others until their joy and their suffering becomes your joy and suffering. When another's suffering causes you to suffer in equal measure, why in the world would you knowingly be the cause of it? Of course you do to others what you would have done to you, because when you do it to others it is being done to you. Thou Art That.

Whether or not Noah built a freakin' ark really only matters if your entire spiritual existence depends on the absolute veracity of stories that other people have told about what some other people may or may not have experienced. I'll take my own experience, it's no more or less imperfect and incomplete than anyone else's.



Very nicely put, Frau. My hat is off to you, ma'am. I was going to express pretty much the same opinon, minus the Indian perspective, but I really didn't want to get involved in another one of these religious debates, and I doubt anyone would want to scroll past another one of my inordinately long replies.

The point I was going to make is that Jesus, whether or not he is the Son Of God, gives us all a great example to live by. I'm perfectly wiling to live my life by what He taught us, no matter what others may say about it. You have basically expressed the point without going off on the tangents that I am prone to, so again, my hat is off to you.

[ReFaN]

i was under the impre3ssion that the ark is located in my front ýard =P

[AVGWarhawk]

Note also that all the fanciful stories in the bible make perfect sense if taken as stories of LOCAL events, by local people. The flood was regional, perhaps a single river valley. It only gets silly when made a worldwide event that kills everyone. Maybe it killed all Noah's neighbors. To an illiterate who has never been more than 10 miles from home, a regional event might well be world wide. All the animals on any ark might have been just the stuff around the farm, lol.

You have illustrated a phenomenon known throughout the ages that word of mouth relay of events get lost in translation. I have said it before in this thread, stories get embellished, new events added in error and magnituded of the event changes as it passes word of mouth from person to person. So yes, if we remove the writing that the entire world is covered with water and input the area the size that Hurricane Katrina affected then we have something more believable. Only when it is written down and handed from person to person does the story remain the same.

With that thought, replace 'world flood' with 'Hurricane Katrina'. Keep in mind the folks back then did not have Doppler radar. These weather events show up and wipe out hundreds of miles of land along with the people/livestock, etc. There was no warning given except for one lone man named Noah (as I understand it others were advised but ignored the warning). To them, the entire world has been flooded.

[AVGWarhawk]

Why did starting over involve killing almost all living things on the planet? Had the entire animal kingdom turned from god? Were there sinful dogs and cats that just had to be killed? Because they were exterminated along with almost all people (including infants, who apparently managed to turn away from god even before they could learn to talk).

And there's the method of the slaughter, too. God could have just snapped its fingers and killed everything instantaneously and painlessly, but apparently decided that making billions of organisms suffer needlessly would be much more entertaining.

Commandments 1 - 4 apply only to religious practices, and have no moral merit. Why are almost half the commandments wasted on this?

Commandment 2's text includes the warning that god will punish your children to the third and fourth generations for your "crime" of worshiping an idol. Why punish innocent people? At any rate, I guess all those Hindus and Buddhists are in deep trouble.

Commandment 3 institutes speech-crime. Out of all the possible laws that could have been commanded, out of all the potential good that could have been done, god chose to give us this law, a prohibition on speech?

Commandment 10 institutes thought-crime. It doesn't matter if you don't hurt anyone in any way - if you think certain thoughts, you're breaking god's rules. And since coveting other people's stuff is kind of the driving force behind consumer capitalism, we're all in deep trouble.

But what's worse is what wasn't included in the commandments: no prohibition of rape, assault, torture, slavery, etc... Isn't it odd how this "top ten" list doesn't say anything about them?

Imagine how much better things might have turned out if slavery had been proscribed. But no, instead we're told to not work on the sabbath. Way to prioritize, god!

So the Egyptian Book of the Dead must be true to some extent too, right?

Or is it possible that people can write things down which they think are true, but which in fact are not?


Simple, these were the laws of the land at that time. Furthermore I believe there was more than 10 commandments.


Exodus 20:2–17 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Exodus&verse=20:2–17&src=NRSV)Deuteronomy 5:6–21 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Deuteronomy&verse=5:6–21&src=NRSV)Exodus 34:11–27 (http://bibref.hebtools.com/?book=%20Exodus&verse=34:11–27&src=NRSV)2 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 3 Do not have any other gods before me.
4 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and the fourth generation of those who reject me,
6 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
7 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
8 Remember the Sabbath day and keep it holy.
9 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.
10 But the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns.
11 For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but rested the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and consecrated it.
12 Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
13 You shall not murder.
14 You shall not commit adultery.
15 You shall not steal.
16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
6 I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; 7 you shall have no other gods before me.
8 You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me,
10 but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.
11 You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.
12 Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.
13 For six days you shall labour and do all your work.
14 But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you.
15 Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.
16 Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you.
17 You shall not murder.
18 Neither shall you commit adultery.
19 Neither shall you steal.
20 Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.
21 Neither shall you covet your neighbor’s wife. Neither shall you desire your neighbor’s house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.
11 Observe what I command you today. See, I will drive out before you the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites. 12 Take care not to make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land to which you are going, or it will become a snare among you.
13 You shall tear down their altars, break their pillars, and cut down their sacred poles
14 (for you shall worship no other god, because the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God).
15 You shall not make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, for when they prostitute themselves to their gods and sacrifice to their gods, someone among them will invite you, and you will eat of the sacrifice.
16 And you will take wives from among their daughters for your sons, and their daughters who prostitute themselves to their gods will make your sons also prostitute themselves to their gods.
17 You shall not make cast idols.
18 You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. For seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.
19 All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male livestock, the firstborn of cow and sheep.
20 The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem.
No one shall appear before me empty-handed.
21 For six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in ploughing time and in harvest time you shall rest.
22 You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year.
23 Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel.
24 For I will cast out nations before you, and enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.
25 You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the morning.
26 The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God.
You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.
27 The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.



So the Egyptian Book of the Dead must be true to some extent too, right?

Or is it possible that people can write things down which they think are true, but which in fact are not?


Sure, the Egyptian Book if the Dead can be true to some extent. I can not disprove it nor will attempt to.

It is possible people can write things down which they think are true but the facts are not....witness Wikipedia on the internet. Anyone can write anything they want on the Wikipedia pages. True or note and no facts to substantiate.

[AVGWarhawk]

Actually the good old Golden Rule - simply stated, treat other people the way you want to be treated, and don't do things to them that you wouldn't want done to you - pretty much covers all of it.

I have found it to be the most fundamental truth "revealed" in just about all religious traditions, insofar as anything of universal value is revealed at all. At least in the mystical branches of most religions, which are the ones that value the authority of individual spiritual experience over simply "doing what you're told" based on what somebody else claims to have experienced last week or last millennium.

I think the New Testament points to this when it has Jesus narrow down the commandments to a mere two, of which the so-called Golden Rule was one. Stick to that and all the other rules and regulations about "good social behavior" are irrelevant - provided one can stick to it as a matter of course and is not ruled instead by motivations that make doing so impossible.

The individual spiritual experience that makes it possible (or at least easier to do) is referred to in the writings of ancient India as the realization of "tat tvam asi" - Thou Art That. It is a realization of the oneness of all creation. You are that person you did a bad thing to. You are that person you did a good thing to. And vice versa. This realization is the foundation of human compassion. It's the opening of the heart chakra, it's the second birth, call it whatever you want. It's the birth of the truly compassionate heart, and the opening of it to others until their joy and their suffering becomes your joy and suffering. When another's suffering causes you to suffer in equal measure, why in the world would you knowingly be the cause of it? Of course you do to others what you would have done to you, because when you do it to others it is being done to you. Thou Art That.

Whether or not Noah built a freakin' ark really only matters if your entire spiritual existence depends on the absolute veracity of stories that other people have told about what some other people may or may not have experienced. I'll take my own experience, it's no more or less imperfect and incomplete than anyone else's.

@Oberon - P.S. THE TURTLE MOVES!!

Well said!

[tater]

You have illustrated a phenomenon known throughout the ages that word of mouth relay of events get lost in translation. I have said it before in this thread, stories get embellished, new events added in error and magnituded of the event changes as it passes word of mouth from person to person. So yes, if we remove the writing that the entire world is covered with water and input the area the size that Hurricane Katrina affected then we have something more believable. Only when it is written down and handed from person to person does the story remain the same.

With that thought, replace 'world flood' with 'Hurricane Katrina'. Keep in mind the folks back then did not have Doppler radar. These weather events show up and wipe out hundreds of miles of land along with the people/livestock, etc. There was no warning given except for one lone man named Noah (as I understand it others were advised but ignored the warning). To them, the entire world has been flooded.

I agree completely. The trouble is that such stories are attributed as the inerrant writing of GOD. Sometimes the folks with the book in hand want to smite you, too, because of some other, inerrant command within the same book.

[AVGWarhawk]

But these were not inerrant writings of God. These were writings of men in places like caves and jails. People need to realize this. Some don't. I believe only the Commandments were the actual writing of God. Keep in mind I'm not a theologian. People need to realize that with each new writing of the Bible over the years the influences of man has played a major factor. Literal interpretation is not always a good thing. Or as you said it, smite over the head because the book said this and not that, however, 10 decades ago the book said something completely different.

I'm still of the mind that the Bible was a sort of Emily Post way of living, a guide book, possibly the rules of the land at the time. Ways of living were illustrated in each writing or 'book of'. I'm still of mind that these events did occur and these people did exist. However, over time each story got just a little more incredible.

[tater]

Why believe the commandments story any more than Noah?

Just curious.

Seems pretty defensive and petulant for the author to be omnipotent.

As an aside, is the story of Abraham true? Regardless of truth, is the lesson good even as a story with a moral?

[AVGWarhawk]

Why believe the commandments story any more than Noah?

Just curious.

Seems pretty defensive and petulant for the author to be omnipotent.

As an aside, is the story of Abraham true? Regardless of truth, is the lesson good even as a story with a moral?

I do not believe the commandment story anymore than any other story in the Bible. But, with exception of the omnipotent aspect of the commandments (God was a bit stuck on himself) take a look at the other aspects of the commandments. Particularly these:

12 Honor your father and your mother (sometimes this does not always work out)
13 You shall not murder.
14 You shall not commit adultery.
15 You shall not steal.
16 You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

These seem to me a good guideline for living. We certainly can not go wrong by following what is noted above. If not the local law officials will come for you on some of these noted above. :o As far as the other commandments, I work the 7th day. I do not attend church on a regular basis. I'm a Christmas and Easter guy when it comes to church. Fondly knows as a C & E man.

I would have to read the story of Abraham again to comment....the last time I read the Bible was about 29 years ago!

[tater]

What's to read? God commands Abraham to murder his son. Abraham complies, and just as he is about to actually kill him, God pops up and spares the son, then praises Abraham for being so awesome and faithful.

Who would order someone to murder any child but someone wicked?

Who would comply?

This story is revered (I heard it as a Catholic) by Christians, Jews, and Muslims. It's pure insanity.

BTW, regarding the "10" commandments, they are not so clear as they have been presented here. Punishing down to the 4th generation for crimes of the great great grandparents? There are other things in there not among the ten.

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, 19
his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. 20
They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." 21
Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death

Wow, I'd have a dead 3 year old already. Glad I'm unholy ;)

[AVGWarhawk]

Wow, I'd have a dead 3 year old already. Glad I'm unholy ;)


:har: He is not a drunkard! Unruly perhaps. :hmmm:

As far as the stoning...any different than say euthanasia or electric chair? Perhaps a bit harsh for unruly drunkards but at that time perhaps not. Stoning is still used today for lesser offenses than murder, etc.

This story is revered (I heard it as a Catholic) by Christians, Jews, and Muslims. It's pure insanity.


I do not recall anyone revering the story of Abraham. In fact, the story is so nondescript to me that I would have to read it again. (I did read your abridged version)



BTW, regarding the "10" commandments, they are not so clear as they have been presented here. Punishing down to the 4th generation for crimes of the great great grandparents? There are other things in there not among the ten.



Sure there are parts of the commandments that in today's world make no sense and probably made no sense back then. Then there are some that make complete sense and as we see it today are part of our own laws. However, we are logical thinking animals and punishing down to the 4th generation is not logical nor would have any merit. It would basically accomplish nothing but it might make someone think before they commit the act. Let's call it the consequences of your actions. You do that granny gets it! :stare:

[Fr8monkey]

Problem with the 10 commandments is which ones to follow? The traditional version posted by our esteemed brother Warhawk is the second version Moses brought down from the mountain "which Moses didst break" (Ex. 20). The first version which was brought down "the words that were on the first" (Ex. 34) reads:

1. Thou shalt worship no other
god (For the Lord is a jealous
god).
2. Thou shalt make thee no
molten gods.
3. The feast of unleavened
bread shalt thou keep in the
month when the ear is on the
corn.
4. All the first-born are mine.
5. Six days shalt thou work,
but on the seventh thou shalt
rest.
6. Thou shalt observe the feast
of weeks, even of the first fruits
of the wheat harvest, and the
feast of ingathering at the
year’s end.
7. Thou shalt not offer the
blood of my sacrifice with
leavened bread.
8. The fat of my feast shall not
remain all night until the
morning.
9. The first of the first fruits of
thy ground thou shalt bring
unto the house of the Lord thy
God.
10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid
in its mother’s milk.


Now, I am no prude, but if I have to give up drooling over my neighbors hot wife and instead not cook babies in mama's milk, we got a problem!!:arrgh!:

[AVGWarhawk]

Go for the second revised version! Seems a bit more fitting for today and a bit easier to read/understand. :o

[razark]

Go for the second revised version! Seems a bit more fitting for today and a bit easier to read/understand. :o

So, just pick and choose which set of rules to follow? :06:

That's what annoys me about most organized religions. The followers have a set of rules, but they choose to follow this rule and ignore that rule, and say "This rule really means that", or "This bit changes that". You end up with a bunch of people claiming to follow the same god, and each one has a completely different idea about what that god is, and what it wants.

It's amazing how many people end up following a god that matches their pre-conceived ideas.

[Dowly]

So, just pick and choose which set of rules to follow? :06:

That's what annoys me about most organized religions. The followers have a set of rules, but they choose to follow this rule and ignore that rule, and say "This rule really means that", or "This bit changes that". You end up with a bunch of people claiming to follow the same god, and each one has a completely different idea about what that god is, and what it wants.

QFT

[AVGWarhawk]

So, just pick and choose which set of rules to follow? :06:

That's what annoys me about most organized religions. The followers have a set of rules, but they choose to follow this rule and ignore that rule, and say "This rule really means that", or "This bit changes that". You end up with a bunch of people claiming to follow the same god, and each one has a completely different idea about what that god is, and what it wants.

It's amazing how many people end up following a god that matches their pre-conceived ideas.


Been happening since the dawn of civilization! :03:

[kiwi_2005]

I don't getit, they found Noah's ark years ago in turkey on the mount well they claimed back then it was Noah's ark maybe they couldn't confirm it world wide until they got some scientist to check it out. But yeah i remember reading about it 5/6 years ago.

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't getit, they found Noah's ark years ago in turkey on the mount well they claimed back then it was Noah's ark maybe they couldn't confirm it world wide until they got some scientist to check it out. But yeah i remember reading about it 5/6 years ago.

Turkey cut off anyone wanting to climb the mountain well over 20 years ago IIRC.

[kiwi_2005]

Turkey cut off anyone wanting to climb the mountain well over 20 years ago IIRC.

So are you saying they found the Ark 20 yrs ago? :o But only let them check it out recently. I'm sure it was 5/6 years ago i read it in the paper, big write up about it with photographs of the area you could see what looked like something big and in a shape of a large boat embedded in the ground, two men standing near the area. Unless it was 20 yrs ago i read it, if so my brain is fried man!

Then after that nothing else was heard/mention about it. Till now.

[tater]

The commandments against murder and theft... think about how absurd it is to hold those up as somehow specially useful.

ALL cultures forbid this in general (and like the bible, allow it in other cases—say when sponsored by the church or state, lol).

Does god putting these on a rock mean that BEFORE Moses went up the mountain, it was perfectly OK to shag your neighbor's wife, murder his kids, etc? I can see Moses now, "hey, guys, stop murdering that kid for a second and come here and read THIS! Look, I know we murder people in between stealing and shagging on a daily basis, but God has just now informed me "this is bad™. From now on that won't be OK any more."

The ark is nonsense. There is a perfect analog here in my own State of New Mexico, actually. Turkey doesn't want anyone poking around unless they find an Ark. It's useful for tourism (and Muslims love silly stories, too, certainly, since they believe all this stuff as well). Here in NM, we have Roswell. The State absolutely plays along with the UFO nonsense, because it generates tourism.

[AVGWarhawk]

So are you saying they found the Ark 20 yrs ago? :o But only let them check it out recently. I'm sure it was 5/6 years ago i read it in the paper, big write up about it with photographs of the area you could see what looked like something big and in a shape of a large boat embedded in the ground, two men standing near the area. Unless it was 20 yrs ago i read it, if so my brain is fried man!

Then after that nothing else was heard/mention about it. Till now.

Yes sir. When I was a kid I watched a movie and or program about it. I'm 44 now. The USAF did some photo recon (U2) but that is all was allowed back then. This structure was known about for a long time.

http://www.noahsarksearch.com/anomaly.htm

This is why I'm intriqued with it and have been discussing with tater.

[tater]

If the story is right (LOL) then they are looking way too high, 15 cubits—30ft—that's the depth of the flood. If you take covering the earth as reasonable, you're crazy, so looking high is silly.

It's a hoax, there is no other plausible explanation.

[AVGWarhawk]

The commandments against murder and theft... think about how absurd it is to hold those up as somehow specially useful.

ALL cultures forbid this in general (and like the bible, allow it in other cases—say when sponsored by the church or state, lol).

Does god putting these on a rock mean that BEFORE Moses went up the mountain, it was perfectly OK to shag your neighbor's wife, murder his kids, etc? I can see Moses now, "hey, guys, stop murdering that kid for a second and come here and read THIS! Look, I know we murder people in between stealing and shagging on a daily basis, but God has just now informed me "this is bad™. From now on that won't be OK any more."

The ark is nonsense. There is a perfect analog here in my own State of New Mexico, actually. Turkey doesn't want anyone poking around unless they find an Ark. It's useful for tourism (and Muslims love silly stories, too, certainly, since they believe all this stuff as well). Here in NM, we have Roswell. The State absolutely plays along with the UFO nonsense, because it generates tourism.

Think about it tater...what is a lawless society? Nuts, uncivil. Even today in the law books it says do not murder or steal. Or simply, it is against the law to murder or steal. So it is specifially useful. You can shag your neighbors wife though...nothing in our books of laws on that I'm aware of.

Before this was put on a rock, yes, the people were living in sin as I recall in my readings. There was murder, shagging, debotchery, buggery. God no more informed them then we are informed by our local officals with guns and badges. These guys have their laws in stone as well. Commandments/laws or whatever we like to call them are part of a civil society. Even today we get the, 'this ain't ok anymore." Case and point...illegal immigrants in AZ just got that ultimatum.

As far as Turkey and this stucture...I do not believe it is a stunt for tourism. This structure has been known for years. Turkey cut off anyone looking to investigate. Why it is open now I do not know. If anything, we discover it is just a shepards hut that has survived all these years. Maybe we find it is a vessel and the mystery continues.

[AVGWarhawk]

If the story is right (LOL) then they are looking way too high, 15 cubits—30ft—that's the depth of the flood. If you take covering the earth as reasonable, you're crazy, so looking high is silly.

It's a hoax, there is no other plausible explanation.

Then it is up to those investigating to determine just what it is. There has been speculation for over 50 years! :hmmm: Inquiring minds want to know!

[tater]

My point was that ALL cultures forbid this. Moses goes up, and the bulk of the commandments are useless. They are related on how to worship a jealous god, and not offend him. The only useful bits are self-evident to every society on earth, ever. Our laws don't forbid theft and murder because the bible tells us so. They forbid it because virtually ALL cultures forbid it. Interesting that it doesn't forbid rape, or slavery, lol. Odd given the story starts out with them as slaves, you'd think that would be high on the list. That it isn't given the supposed history is an implicit nod that slavery is fine, actually.

The sinning didn't stop with the 10 commandments, either. It was now just officially known to be wrong. The idea that somehow it was common before is absurd. Societies contemporary with Moses (assuming such a character ever existed, which is a stretch with zero corroboration) also had laws forbidding this. It was nothing new. Nothing new at all.

The entire exodus is BS, frankly. Israeli archeologists—who absolutely have an axe to grind and desperately want to prove it—have said flat out that the story is just a story, they've found nothing.

I can understand keeping elements of religions to lead a good life. I just don't understand the requirement to have cosmic punishment over your head to do so. Thoughtful people like yourself would try to do so just because they think it's right, without any threat of generations of punishment being meted out.

[razark]

Interesting that it doesn't forbid rape, or slavery, lol. Odd given the story starts out with them as slaves, you'd think that would be high on the list. That it isn't given the supposed history is an implicit nod that slavery is fine, actually.

The book even has sections of laws on the proper way to keep slaves, who you can hold as a slave, how to treat them, how severely you can beat them, etc.

And rape... yeesh. If a virgin woman gets raped, the rapist has to pay 50 shekels of silver to her father and marry her. He is not allowed to divorce her, ever. What could be a more fitting punishment for a rape victim than forcing her to marry her rapist?

Of course, that didn't hold true for a woman raped in town. If she was raped in a town, she obviously didn't scream loud enough, and therefore must have been enjoying it, and she was to be stoned to death, along with the rapist.


...threat of generations of punishment being meted out.

Isn't that the whole premise of the story? Adam and Eve do something bad (which, at the time, they could not have known was bad), and the entire human race following them is cursed to damnation. Except for the fact that god creates an escape clause, several thousands of years later. Everyone in the meantime is just out of luck.

[AVGWarhawk]

My point was that ALL cultures forbid this. Moses goes up, and the bulk of the commandments are useless. They are related on how to worship a jealous god, and not offend him. The only useful bits are self-evident to every society on earth, ever. Our laws don't forbid theft and murder because the bible tells us so. They forbid it because virtually ALL cultures forbid it. Interesting that it doesn't forbid rape, or slavery, lol. Odd given the story starts out with them as slaves, you'd think that would be high on the list. That it isn't given the supposed history is an implicit nod that slavery is fine, actually.



Of course all cultures (civilized) forbide this. Putting aside a God who digs worship, the useful bits are self evident now (not at say cavemen times were whacking your neighbor in his cave then swiping his cave woman was ok) and in times were murder, raping and pillaging was not frowned upon but seen as the order of the day. So yes, virtually all cultures (civilized) forbid this and it is 'written' down! Much like the commandments. Now it is more then just self evident....it is written and as we call it...ignorance of the law is not an excuse. I agree though, the bulk of the commandments are useless but there are many that are fitting to this day.

I would say that rape is covered 'some what' here:



17 You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.


Basically, nothing of your neighbors is yours. Inclusive of shagging wife, male or female slave. Neighbors perhaps anyone in the town.


What is strange is these folks were slaves yet they themselve kept slaves.

The sinning didn't stop with the 10 commandments, either. It was now just officially known to be wrong. The idea that somehow it was common before is absurd. Societies contemporary with Moses (assuming such a character ever existed, which is a stretch with zero corroboration) also had laws forbidding this. It was nothing new. Nothing new at all.


Nor does it with our own laws today. Our laws show these things as offically wrong. Were did we get the idea that killing, raping and steeling are wrong? Were did these moral issues originate?


The entire exodus is BS, frankly. Israeli archeologists—who absolutely have an axe to grind and desperately want to prove it—have said flat out that the story is just a story, they've found nothing.



More than likely and another embellishment.


I can understand keeping elements of religions to lead a good life. I just don't understand the requirement to have cosmic punishment over your head to do so. Thoughtful people like yourself would try to do so just because they think it's right, without any threat of generations of punishment being meted out.


There are no elements of religion...religion was made up by people. There are elements of a book called the Bible that help lead a good life. I understand your point on these are self evident rules but when I'm questioned about the Bible I tell'em I follow the 10 to the best of my ability. :up: Many do not understand the cosmic requirements (set by man using religion) as a punishment over the peoples heads. Using these cosmic punishments was a form of behavior control. Nothing more. Nothing is held over my head at all. I hold nothing over peoples heads. I do know some that do and often the folks receive the title of "Holy Roller". Most days I only believe I will have another scotch! Nothing more. :DL But I will go back to what I have said throughout this thread...the Bible is a good guidline filled with 'moral of the story' stories and some tips/tricks in living a good life. However this book has been heavily modded over the years to work out any bugs by the developers. :DL After all Shakespeare was revered as one of the greats....so were his plays that relied heavily on his readings of the Bible. At the very least we can say the Bible has been very influential throughout history.

[AVGWarhawk]

And rape... yeesh. If a virgin woman gets raped, the rapist has to pay 50 shekels of silver to her father and marry her. He is not allowed to divorce her, ever. What could be a more fitting punishment for a rape victim than forcing her to marry her rapist?



You lost me here big guy...why are we punishing a rape victim? Apparently since Tuesday only in OK do they punish rape/incest victims.

[razark]

You lost me here big guy...why are we punishing a rape victim? Apparently since Tuesday only in OK do they punish rape/incest victims.

That's a damn good question. My point was that for all the good stuff in that set of rules, there's also a lot of bad stuff. If it was divinely inspired, wouldn't it all have been good?


Were did we get the idea that killing, raping and steeling are wrong? Were did these moral issues originate?

They evolved over time. People realized that they didn't like to be killed or raped, and they didn't like having their stuff stolen. If you stealing my rock makes me sad, my stealing your rock probably makes you sad. Therefore, I shouldn't steal your rock. If I kill you, it makes the tribe less able to hunt the mammoths. Therefore, I will have less to eat, and I shouldn't kill you. Morals evolved with the species, as a way of making the group more likely to survive.

If I do bad things to you, it makes you less likely to help me. Moral rules are just a way to further our self-interest. If I treat you well, you are more likely to treat me well. There's that golden rule thing again.

[frau kaleun]

That's a damn good question. My point was that for all the good stuff in that set of rules, there's also a lot of bad stuff. If it was divinely inspired, wouldn't it all have been good?

You are judging the "goodness" of the "make the rapist marry his victim" thing according to more modern standards.

One shouldn't forget that we're talking about a time and place where women were the property of men, if not actually by law then certainly by custom and practice. Legally speaking, raping a woman was not primarily a crime of violence against the woman but rather a property crime committed against the man who "owned" her, be it father, husband, or nearest male relative. And one of the things that determined the value of a woman to a current/prospective male owner was her sexual "purity." If the woman was still unmarried, this meant the presumption of virginity -which would make it easier (and more profitable) to marry her off to another man who would then be responsible for her upkeep. If she was married or widowed it was the fact that her husband always had exclusive access to her for sexual and procreative purposes.

Judged by the customs of the time, making a rapist marry the woman he raped (provided she was not already married) was considered fair and good for the perceived victim, i.e. the father or male relative who would otherwise be stuck with a "spoiled" product that he could no longer get a good price for on the local marriage market.

In short, laws designed to make a sucky system work will almost always be as sucky as the sucky system they support.

[AVGWarhawk]

Damn fine observation Frau!

[frau kaleun]

Damn fine observation Frau!

All it does is offer one more bit of proof that all these laws and commandments supposedly handed down by this god or that are really just the inventions of people living and thinking within a particular social construct. Of course they have to be presented as "law of (a) god" because otherwise it's just "lol fred wants us to stop doing this, who does he think he is?"

And of course people have to be threatened with punishment if they don't fall in line because for a great many people fear of punishment and desire for reward are THE primary motivators when making moral/ethical decisions.

[razark]

You are judging the "goodness" of the "make the rapist marry his victim" thing according to more modern standards.

No, I'm judging it by my own moral standards. It's the only thing I have to judge morality by. The culture that wrote this rule claimed it was created by God. They believed this God to be good. Therefore they held this rule to be good. Therefore, I conclude that either (a): this culture was not up to my moral standards, or (b): God is not up to my moral standards.


One shouldn't forget that we're talking about a time and place...

Judged by the customs of the time...

I fully understand that this is a rule from a different time, a different place, and a different culture. I understand the reasoning that women were "property" to the people (of course men) that wrote these rules.

Slavery and rape are, simply put, wrong. There is no exception for culture, time, place, etc. It is wrong now, it was wrong then, it will be wrong in another 5,000 years.

But if these rules were indeed created by God, the all-knowing, all-loving, all-good deity, something doesn't add up. Either God has changed his mind as to what "good" and "right" are, or what is "good" and "right" has changed over time.

If some act is, was, and will be wrong, why did God not make it clear in the old laws that it was wrong? If the rules were inspired by a divine, good being, why is there so much that is wrong in the rules?

Edit:
All it does is offer one more bit of proof that all these laws and commandments supposedly handed down by this god or that are really just the inventions of people living and thinking within a particular social construct.

Yeah, that's pretty much what I was saying.

[AVGWarhawk]

All it does is offer one more bit of proof that all these laws and commandments supposedly handed down by this god or that are really just the inventions of people living and thinking within a particular social construct. Of course they have to be presented as "law of (a) god" because otherwise it's just "lol fred wants us to stop doing this, who does he think he is?"

And of course people have to be threatened with punishment if they don't fall in line because for a great many people fear of punishment and desire for reward are THE primary motivators when making moral/ethical decisions.

And another fine observation. I lean more toward an invention created by man for behavior control. Again, I'm by no means an authoritarian on the Bible and certainly not remotely close to understanding other books that cultures use, ie Koran, Torah. Therefore I can not make comparisons from culture to culture concerning things like the commandments that looked to be nothing more than words to make people behave.

[Platapus]

Religion was created as a rational for the poor not to rise up and kill the rich. :D

[Safe-Keeper]

Noah's Ark found... What, another one? The 25 claimed to have been found already didn't do it for them:rotfl2:? Are they expanding the myth to be about Noah's Armada, or what's going on here?

[frau kaleun]

No, I'm judging it by my own moral standards. It's the only thing I have to judge morality by. The culture that wrote this rule claimed it was created by God. They believed this God to be good. Therefore they held this rule to be good. Therefore, I conclude that either (a): this culture was not up to my moral standards, or (b): God is not up to my moral standards.

Point taken. :DL

The one thing that is manifestly clear from the history of the mixing of "gods" and "laws" is that people are more likely than not to ascribe divine authorship to any law that upholds the culture and customs they already have or wish to create.

[frau kaleun]

Religion was created as a rational for the poor not to rise up and kill the rich. :D

It can certainly serve that purpose, and has on more than one occasion.

Joseph Campbell held that the religious/mythic traditions of any culture could serve any or all of four different functions: metaphysical/mystical, cosmological, sociological, and pedagogical.

The Ten Commandments and other "rules and regulations" said to have been handed down by this or that divine being serve a sociological function: they establish the moral and ethical codes and ideals which in part define the culture that reveres them and sees itself as defined by them.

But culture is relative and ever-changing, much to the chagrin of those who would benefit most from maintaining the status quo and fear the loss of privilege and power that change might bring. Thus "our" rules must be absolute, unquestioned, ordained by God, and other peoples' rules are only valid insofar as they correspond to ours.

[Safe-Keeper]

But what's worse is what wasn't included in the commandments: no prohibition of rape, assault, torture, slavery, etc... Isn't it odd how this "top ten" list doesn't say anything about them?

Imagine how much better things might have turned out if slavery had been proscribed. But no, instead we're told to not work on the sabbath. Way to prioritize, god! While I have little love for the Bible, I feel compelled to point out that a lot of the truly good stuff therein is taken for granted today, but was revolutionary in its time. For example, Jesus' idea about turning the other cheek. Before Christianity, Norsemen often resolved matters by killing each other, leading to deadly blood feuds similar to the honour killings we see in today's fundamentalist Islamic world.

Sure, it's woefully outdated today and even the most fundamentalist believers have turned away from most of its archaic laws (and even Jesus and His diciples said a lot of... questionable things in the new Testament). But please do not underestimate what its philosophies (well, the good ones, anyway) have done for the Western World.

[CaptainHaplo]

The key here is what has been stated already - you dealing with a society much different from ours today, both in its views and its morals. Trying to judge it based off our own perspectives is what makes us shake our head at some of the things in it. Society has - in general - matured, though in some cultures that maturing has been significantly repressed. Yet the basic structure of don't do crappy stuff to others is a common thread - they simply had different ideas what crappy behavior was.

[tater]

The key here is what has been stated already - you dealing with a society much different from ours today, both in its views and its morals. Trying to judge it based off our own perspectives is what makes us shake our head at some of the things in it. Society has - in general - matured, though in some cultures that maturing has been significantly repressed. Yet the basic structure of don't do crappy stuff to others is a common thread - they simply had different ideas what crappy behavior was.

This certainly makes sense as history, but the second you attribute it to an omniscient being, all relativism goes out the window. It needs to be taken for all time. If the guy next to the burning bush balks at some of it not matching his bronze-age culture, tough. At least he's being directly addressed by the supreme being, that should be proof enough to just do as he's told, right? ;)

For me, anyway, there is a huge break between philosophy and religion. The latter requires a level of proof and consistency that the former does not in terms of back story. A philosophy obviously still needs consistency, but we don't care about the life story of the author—the idea is good because the idea is good. That's much different than a bad idea being good because the author is claimed to be god.

[CaptainHaplo]

Which is why - when you look at NT writings, you see the "instruction from God" through Jesus to question things, so that you would be able to tell the false prophets from the real ones. Because ultimately, that was the religions way of providing adaptation - while still hanging on to its "roots". As long as something didn't go against specific prohibitions, it could be "allowed" down the road. A perfect example is slavery - its not allowed now, and is seen as morally reprehensible - but was accepted at the time. Now, if you tried to institute it, the religious would object on moral grounds (just as other people would I would hope). Just because something is not specifically prohibited doesnt mean it should be allowed to continue.

[tater]

Still weak, IMHO.

Look at dietary laws. They make sense at the time, they make necessity a virtue. With modern hygiene, however, they become moot.

It's all easier to swallow if you take bible stories to be just that—stories, not real. The second they become "true" the burden of proof rests firmly on anyone believing they are true.

I'm actually in many senses a biblical literalist, myself. Since I see no rationale for assigning truth to one fanciful claim, but not another, IMO they are either all literally true, or the entire thing is only as true as the least true episode. Since the whole thing isn't even internally consistent, much less consistent with history, my personal take is to chuck it.

Serious questions to anyone who believes: Why do you not believe in Zeus and the other Greek gods? What is it about THAT truth that is so demonstrably silly? What about Buddhism? Why are some beliefs so obviously false to a believer of some other dogma?

[frau kaleun]

Serious questions to anyone who believes: Why do you not believe in Zeus and the other Greek gods? What is it about THAT truth that is so demonstrably silly? What about Buddhism? Why are some beliefs so obviously false to a believer of some other dogma?

With this in mind it's interesting to note that the notion of the premiere deity of the Old Testament being the one and only god most likely came along sometime later than many or most of the events described in it.

The god of the first Israelites was a tribal god, who belonged to and protected "his" people. Those people in turn defined themselves in large part by their devotion to "their" god over and above all the other deities available for worshiping purposes in the ancient Near East.

Note that the first commandent nowhere states or implies that the god handing it down is the only god; in fact it very clearly indicates that he is not the only god by saying "thou shalt have no other gods before me." He's not claiming to be the only god, and doesn't even seem to be demanding that he be worshipped exclusively - he just wants top billing.

At some point this changed, but I lack the scholarship to say when. And frankly I'm too lazy to look it up, because to me it doesn't really matter. :O:

Regarding Zeus et al, you will find that the perceived difference between "religion" and "mythology" is usually this: other people's "religion" is just mythology, either because it is obviously not literally true, or else because it contradicts my religion, which I believe is the literal truth and therefore cannot be called mythology. But someone who dismisses other people's religion as "mere myth" on that basis has mistakenly equated "myth" with "untruth" instead of realizing that there is a difference between literal truth and metaphorical truth. IMO we are all better served by exploring and attending to the latter rather than arguing about the former.

[tater]

Depends on the POV, I suppose. My background is astrophysics, so I tend to see things in terms of cosmology. Sort of like the bit attributed to Epicurus regarding evil I posted above, but looking at creation and interference in human affairs. If no literal creation, and no meddling with people, then it's "just" philosophy. That's still useful, as any consideration of ideas is useful, but it's not religion.

Obviously I'm fine with that as a non-religious person.

[AngusJS]

Angus - actually #8 and #10 both apply to rape, etc. To rape a woman is to steal from her - her dignity, her body, etc. If she is married - your also taking something from your neighbor (as in your fellow man - not necessarily the guy next door) that is not yours.

Slavery - while allowed in both the Old and New Testaments - could be seen as stealing the freedom of another, and thus would violate commandment #8.

Also - if you don't want something from someone else - which is prohibited by commandment #10 - what purpose would you have for torturing someone, raping someone, or putting them into slavery? #8 and #10 are actually very clever catch-alls - they even apply to psychotic people because to do anything TO anyone without there consent it so in some way take from them - be it their freedom, their right to not feel pain inflicted by you, etc.

While judeao-xtianity has its moral flaws, the commandments themselves, if adhered to strictly - would keep just about any morally reprehensible act from ever occuring. The fact that the people at the time failed to use the strictest of interpretations is one reason why the bible then said "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God".Is talking about "stealing dignity" coherent? What is it, and how can it be stolen? Why would the prohibition of such a crime hinge on this problematic concept? And if you're stealing the victim's body by forcing her to do something against her will, then you must also be stealing anyone's body every time you force another person do do anything, which really just makes "steal" meaningless.

Rape doesn't necessarily involve coveting.

And even if rape is somehow stealing or coveting, you still have to consider what was meant by those commandments in the context of when they were written, and not the context of 21st century apologetics.

There are hundreds of commandments in the Torah, even one which tells us how to answer the call of nature. God endeavors to micromanage our lives to the smallest detail, and he lists the creative ways in which he'll make us suffer if we don't follow any part of the law. Plus, his enforcer Moses specifically says to not add (or subtract) anything to the law.

It doesn't sound like the law is meant to be subjected to such liberal interpretations. And if those two commandments were indeed meant to be catch-alls, why bother with the hundreds of other commandments that are now redundant?

In the end, practically any text can be interpreted to mean anything, provided that the standards are loose enough.

[AVGWarhawk]

With this in mind it's interesting to note that the notion of the premiere deity of the Old Testament being the one and only god most likely came along sometime later than many or most of the events described in it.

The god of the first Israelites was a tribal god, who belonged to and protected "his" people. Those people in turn defined themselves in large part by their devotion to "their" god over and above all the other deities available for worshiping purposes in the ancient Near East.

Note that the first commandent nowhere states or implies that the god handing it down is the only god; in fact it very clearly indicates that he is not the only god by saying "thou shalt have no other gods before me." He's not claiming to be the only god, and doesn't even seem to be demanding that he be worshipped exclusively - he just wants top billing.

At some point this changed, but I lack the scholarship to say when. And frankly I'm too lazy to look it up, because to me it doesn't really matter. :O:

Regarding Zeus et al, you will find that the perceived difference between "religion" and "mythology" is usually this: other people's "religion" is just mythology, either because it is obviously not literally true, or else because it contradicts my religion, which I believe is the literal truth and therefore cannot be called mythology. But someone who dismisses other people's religion as "mere myth" on that basis has mistakenly equated "myth" with "untruth" instead of realizing that there is a difference between literal truth and metaphorical truth. IMO we are all better served by exploring and attending to the latter rather than arguing about the former.

Man, your good Frau. You dissected commandment #1 very well. Yes, you must bring in the word mythology as a counterpart to religion. Possibly the same meaning as mythology. I agree that we can not simply brush others POV concerning religion/mythology/theology. As individuals we can call each rubbish and no better then a Dr. Suess story book. Or we can view it as something of substance. Claims substantiated by scrolls, tablets or relics. Sometimes discredited same by these scrolls, tablets or relics.

"religion is a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, especially when considered as the creation of a supernatural agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs."

[tater]

Yes, but any monotheist believer must hold the other belief systems to be false, and merely "myth," right? Or does a good Christian imagine Jesus hanging out with Hanuman playing golf (I didn't pick Vishnu because I had a Hindu holy man in Nepal welcome me to a temple by (assuming I was Christian) explaining that Jesus was the Nth incarnation of Vishnu, so it was really MY temple, too! Very welcoming, I played along.)?

I treat all religions equally, actually. I take them at face value, none better than another, Zeus is just as likely to me as native American gods, etc.

[AngusJS]

While I have little love for the Bible, I feel compelled to point out that a lot of the truly good stuff therein is taken for granted today, but was revolutionary in its time. For example, Jesus' idea about turning the other cheek. Before Christianity, Norsemen often resolved matters by killing each other, leading to deadly blood feuds similar to the honour killings we see in today's fundamentalist Islamic world.

Sure, it's woefully outdated today and even the most fundamentalist believers have turned away from most of its archaic laws (and even Jesus and His diciples said a lot of... questionable things in the new Testament). But please do not underestimate what its philosophies (well, the good ones, anyway) have done for the Western World.The church made a major mistake when it rejected Marcionism, i.e. the belief that Yaweh and Jesus' father are two completely different deities, and thus the Old Testament and all its barbarism should be rejected. Granted, it doesn't jive with what Jesus himself believed as best as we can tell, but neither does a lot of Christian theology today. And truth has never been religion's strong point anyway. :DL

And while some of Jesus' teachings are good, don't forget that we get eternal punishment for thought-crimes from the NT, which kind of negates a lot of them. :woot:

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, but any monotheist believer must hold the other belief systems to be false, and merely "myth," right? Or does a good Christian imagine Jesus hanging out with Hanuman playing golf (I didn't pick Vishnu because I had a Hindu holy man in Nepal welcome me to a temple by (assuming I was Christian) explaining that Jesus was the Nth incarnation of Vishnu, so it was really MY temple, too! Very welcoming, I played along.)?

I treat all religions equally, actually. I take them at face value, none better than another, Zeus is just as likely to me as native American gods, etc.


Afterall, who are we to judge? :hmmm: What anyone believe or does not believe makes no difference to me. To each their own.

[tater]

Afterall, who are we to judge? :hmmm: What anyone believe or does not believe makes no difference to me. To each their own.

Yes, but assuming the believer is a Christian, he must personally think they are all wrong, right? Even if he has a live and let live attitude towards their beliefs.

I would certainly have answered "yes" back when I was Catholic (admittedly, I bailed on that in junior high school). I remember in fact as a kid in ancient history. We were discussing greek and roman "mythology." I of course took it as silly stories that were self-evidently false (which they are). At some point sitting in class I realized that had I been born back then, I'd have believed all that just as strongly as I believed in what I had been taught taught regarding religion. That was when I ceased being religious.

Bottom line is that human religious beliefs either all equally true (which leads to some mutual exclusion problems), or they're all equally untrue. Some claim to supersede others, as well, and that's also a problem. If Islam is right, Jesus was just another prophet. Those sorts of problems.

[AVGWarhawk]

Yes, but assuming the believer is a Christian, he must personally think they are all wrong, right?



No sir. I never judge anyone on the right or wrong concerning what they believe in religious or otherwise. It is not my place and makes no difference to me. I have and had friends from all religious backgrounds. Some I roomed with in college and for the better because it provided me a more 'liberal' education concerning what makes people tick.

I was sent to church by my folks until age 15 (Episcopalian) where they said it is up to me if I wanted to continue to attend. It was my decision to make up my own mind on staying. I did my own thing because I did not think I had to show up to an institution on Sunday and hand over money for the greater good of my existence. Then when I witness people like Jim and Tammy Baker...oh brother...religion is a business! I pretty much wrote off the religous aspect of it all. However, I retain some of what the Bible states as good and a good guideline for living.


Bottom line is that human religious beliefs either all equally true (which leads to some mutual exclusion problems), or they're all equally untrue. Some claim to supersede others, as well, and that's also a problem. If Islam is right, Jesus was just another prophet. Those sorts of problems.


I tend to believe it is a mix of true and untrue. One roommate of mine was Jewish. Christmas day he would go to the movies. I of course was exchanging gifts by the tree. It did not matter to either one of us. My other roommate was Catholic/Jewish (mom Catholic, dad Jewish) yet he followed the Jewish teachings, etc. Then my other roommate was Jamaican. No religion at all. My experience with all of this provided me with tolerance/understanding of others in the world. In the end, we just find out we are all only people.....

[tater]

I don't think you're a good example of typical, frankly. I did CCD, was confirmed, the whole 9 yards. I have a reasonable understanding of the beliefs in the church (heck, my babysitter as a kid was my mom's cousin—a nun—who I'm still in contact with (she's now head of a large parochial school system in a decent sized city)).

Being tolerant of other beliefs doesn't mean that a person does not PERSONALLY believe those beliefs are untrue. You might have a MUslim friend. You MUST believe his belief is untrue—if his is true, your christian belief is FALSE. The two cannot both be true.

Again, a huge difference between admirable tolerance of others, and thinking that their beliefs are TRUE.

Say you believe in Noah's ark. Some tribesman in New Guinea doesn't—in his tradition that never happened. If his is true, yours is untrue. You can respect and tolerate his belief, but you cannot claim that you personally hold it to be as true as something you profess to believe as true.

That make any sense?

[frau kaleun]

You MUST believe his belief is untrue—if his is true, your christian belief is FALSE. The two cannot both be true.


A lot depends on whether or not you are talking about literal truth, or metaphorical truth.

For people whose faith depends on the absolute literal truth of whatever holy scriptures and traditions form the basis of it, anything that contradicts those scriptures, calls them into question, or does not hold them in the same reverence with regard to their supposed literal truth is necessarily problematic. It's always going to be an either/or proposition.

[AVGWarhawk]

I don't think you're a good example of typical, frankly. I did CCD, was confirmed, the whole 9 yards. I have a reasonable understanding of the beliefs in the church (heck, my babysitter as a kid was my mom's cousin—a nun—who I'm still in contact with (she's now head of a large parochial school system in a decent sized city)).



No I guess I'm not typical and I suspect I got this way because of the many walks of life I have met. I did the confirmation deal and have a good idea of the beliefs of the church. But for me, church is a business institution in many respects. I have seen to many corrupt churchs than I care to count. Filling the church's coffers so the pastor can take the entire family on a Bahama cruise is not in my game plan. I'm not saying all churchs are like this but I have seen a good many.



Being tolerant of other beliefs doesn't mean that a person does not PERSONALLY believe those beliefs are untrue. You might have a MUslim friend. You MUST believe his belief is untrue—if his is true, your christian belief is FALSE. The two cannot both be true.



I understand what you are saying but I do not dwell on what one believes is true, that me being a Christian, would believe it untrue. It never has any bearing on my interaction with people. But yes, both could not be true in my mind because of what I was told/taught. However, it does not belay me to listen and understand the others view/belief. If for not just interest sake alone but obtaining a understanding of what make this person tick.

Again, a huge difference between admirable tolerance of others, and thinking that their beliefs are TRUE.

Absolutely!


Say you believe in Noah's ark. Some tribesman in New Guinea doesn't—in his tradition that never happened. If his is true, yours is untrue. You can respect and tolerate his belief, but you cannot claim that you personally hold it to be as true as something you profess to believe as true.



Correct.


That make any sense?


Yes sir.

[STEED]

Noah's Ark found

The Sun....:rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2::rotfl2:

T*ts and bulls***.

[TLAM Strike]

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9248/onemoretheorytheoryarkni.jpg

[Blood_splat]

It goes to show you, God is a very impractical being.:O:

[tater]

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/9248/onemoretheorytheoryarkni.jpg

Teach the controversy!

:D

[Fr8monkey]

http://controversy.wearscience.com/img190/coexistence.gif

Teach the controversy, indeed!

[Blood_splat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afsa5gkvmlU :haha:

[SteamWake]

"Hoax" doesent stop belivers.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2010/04/30/noahs-ark-hoax-claim-doesnt-deter-believers/?test=latestnews

[Fr8monkey]

Bill Cosby had the correct story of how it happened.. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0KHt8xrQkk)