Thanks for al the fish!

[Uber Gruber]

Just a quick post to wish all the best to the people i've corresponded with over the last five years. Thanks also to the modders who have worked hard to produce some great mods for SH3 and SH4. I'm sure the SH5 ones are pretty cool too.

So good luck for the future and I leave you with a quote from Robert Browning which appears on Ernest Shacklton's grave in Grytviken, South Georgia.

"I hold that a man should strive to the uttermost for his life's set prize."

Cheers, and thanks for all the fish,

Shaun. :salute:
PS: Moderators please feel free to remove my account and purge my details and posts, thanks.

[Feuer Frei!]

Can i ask why you are leaving?
Or is that a personal thing?
I've read your posts with interest and wish you all the best in life's travels. :salute:

[EgoApocalypse]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168295

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168322

I think???

All the best.

[Feuer Frei!]

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168295

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168322

I think???

All the best.
Ok, would seem so...

[OlegM]

I leave you with a quote from Robert Browning which appears on Ernest Shacklton's grave in Grytviken, South Georgia.

"I hold that a man should strive to the uttermost for his life's set prize."


That's a cool story and as fan of Shackleton's adventures I would want it to be true.

However a photo of Shacky's grave does not feature the above quote...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Shackleton_Grave_SouthGeorgia.jpg

???

[Noren]

Have a good one! I share your views towards censorship in this instance.

[KL-alfman]

Have a good one! I share your views towards censorship in this instance.


+ 1

[Athlonic]

Loved the title :

"The locking of thread that questioned the thread that got locked."

Anyway, to bad you're leaving.


:salute:

[Jimbuna]

I do hope you'll reconsider and return Shaun....but if uou feel unable....fair winds and following seas http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[pythos]

I sincerely hope that a certain Katana wielding moderator will take this as a warning sign.

Sometimes mods do indeed get over zealous. Your thread questioning the closing of the thread questioning the closing of the thread about the crack was closed in a manner that was flat out rude.

Sorry Mod, but it was. If I had put anything like that on one of my forums I would have been ripped into by those in the forum.

I have noticed really heavy handed practices happening at Sub Sim. One I refer to is the bunching of ALL of the Patch 2 complaints into one jumbled mess. I can no longer separate the chaff from the substance.

I don't know how many donate to this site, but I feel as a donor I am entitled to a bit kinder and less heavy handed moderation.

I like Sub sim very much, and want it returning to the fun, and enlightened place it was.

By the way. I found the discussion about the ending splash screen to be filled with waaaaaay too much emotion. It is a fraggin game people, not a pro Nazi simulation.

[smilinicon]

all I know is I am glad they closed the posts. The site is easier to enjoy.

[Takeda Shingen]

I sincerely hope that a certain Katana wielding moderator will take this as a warning sign.

Sometimes mods do indeed get over zealous. Your thread questioning the closing of the thread questioning the closing of the thread about the crack was closed in a manner that was flat out rude.

Sorry Mod, but it was. If I had put anything like that on one of my forums I would have been ripped into by those in the forum.

I have noticed really heavy handed practices happening at Sub Sim. One I refer to is the bunching of ALL of the Patch 2 complaints into one jumbled mess. I can no longer separate the chaff from the substance.

I don't know how many donate to this site, but I feel as a donor I am entitled to a bit kinder and less heavy handed moderation.

I like Sub sim very much, and want it returning to the fun, and enlightened place it was.

By the way. I found the discussion about the ending splash screen to be filled with waaaaaay too much emotion. It is a fraggin game people, not a pro Nazi simulation.

Hello Member. Since we feel the need to call me out, I feel the need to reply.

The thread in question was closed because the question posed by a particular member was answered by the site administrator himself. Opening up another thread to repeat the same question is not necessary, and is something that can and should be taken via a private message. The message thereafter was quite simple: The discussion of cracks, hacks or piracy will not be tollerated. There has been a rash of such activity on this board in the past few months. If you recall, we were nice about the matter. This has not stemmed the tide. The time for pleasantry in this matter has passed.

Regarding the thirteen threads of patch discussion, it is inappropriate to have this many threads devoted to a single topic of which virtually nothing is factually known. Since it is nearly all chaff, it is common practice to place it into a single thread. This has been done repeatedly over the past decade. I am sorry that you did not approve in this case.

[Méo]

Sometimes mods do indeed get over zealous.

And what about some members get over zealous too. :shifty:

The rules are quite simple and clear: if some folks want to discuss about cracks, hacks or piracy, they can do it wherever they want but not here.

Isn't it clear and simple?!?

[ddrgn]

Hello Member. Since we feel the need to call me out, I feel the need to reply.

The thread in question was closed because the question posed by a particular member was answered by the site administrator himself. Opening up another thread to repeat the same question is not necessary, and is something that can and should be taken via a private message. The message thereafter was quite simple: The discussion of cracks, hacks or piracy will not be tollerated. There has been a rash of such activity on this board in the past few months. If you recall, we were nice about the matter. This has not stemmed the tide. The time for pleasantry in this matter has passed.

Regarding the thirteen threads of patch discussion, it is inappropriate to have this many threads devoted to a single topic of which virtually nothing is factually known. Since it is nearly all chaff, it is common practice to place it into a single thread. This has been done repeatedly over the past decade. I am sorry that you did not approve in this case.

So swastikas and third reich eagles is ok, but talking about a perfectly legitimate topic about the same games that have started this very board (which would not be here if not for the GAMES) is prohibited. Nice.

[Athlonic]

By the way,

The fact that Moderators have something to do with the 1.2 patch not been already released wouldn't surprise me ... :hmmm:



Just kidding :D


Going out ...

[Takeda Shingen]

So swastikas and third reich eagles is ok, but talking about a perfectly legitimate topic about the same games that have started this very board (which would not be here if not for the GAMES) is prohibited. Nice.

Discussion of games is fine. Discussion of circumventing copy protection, popular or not, is not fine. It is that simple.

Personally, I have yet to recieve a complaint about swastikas and other Third Reich symbols. Still, no, prominent swastikas are inappropriate here.

[Takeda Shingen]

The rules are quite simple and clear: if some folks want to discuss about cracks, hacks or piracy, they can do it wherever they want but not here.

Good to know that there are a few people here who get it.

[McBeck]

When you mod this forum you have to do it according to the forums rules and they are VERY clear in the matter. It can hardly come to a surprise...

The same thing happens every time a new version of SH is released...after some time of being nice, its time to get things back on track, so we can have the forum back to its prior state.

[Spartan]

@Uber Gruber (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/member.php?u=214941) - I'm of the same opinion as you brother. It is the main reason I dont post much or work on mods anymore...

In short, DRM is pure evil and the current state-of-affairs for IPR in the USA is tantamount to legal tyranny.

[Jimbuna]

I usually try to keep out of these textual minefields and certainly wouldn't want to see this thread degenerate into a 'who is right and who is wrong' or a 'I support his actions or I don't' but this is how I see it starting to go.

Uber Gruber it would appear has decided to leave the forum for whatever reason. We can all speculate on said reason and it is probable that said speculation is correct.

Whether I agree with his issue or not is irrelevant, because if an individual feels strongly enough about a principle then it is possible they will react to any adverse (as they see it) response to that principle.

Personally, I believe that is a pity because this forum has a wide and diverse set of members, all of whom contribute in one way or another and Uber Gruber certainly did his fair share of contributing.

I don't condone piracy, the use of cracks or anything else of that nature so perhaps there lies a clue to my position.

The fact is, this is Neals forum, Neal sets the rules, he appoints his Moderators personally and it is their function to assist in the smooth running of this forum.

People have choices on most things in life and in the context of being a SubSim member it is obvious, in my mind anyway.....abide by the rules or look at frequenting an alternative forum/s.

[Immacolata]

Pick your fights, I say. Discussing cracked games on subsim is one you're gonna lose. Why pick it? Bars are for drinking, churches for praying. If the barkeep asks you to take your proselytizing elsewhere, or the vicar asks you to stop drinking in the Church, why push the matter?

[IanC]

Uber Gruber, I know this is easier said than done, but don't take it personally. The threads would've been locked no matter who started them.

[mookiemookie]

Pick your fights, I say. Discussing cracked games on subsim is one you're gonna lose. Why pick it? Bars are for drinking, churches for praying. If the barkeep asks you to take your proselytizing elsewhere, or the vicar asks you to stop drinking in the Church, why push the matter?

Exactly. And then when you start publicly questioning/criticizing the barkeep or vicar's decision, as was done in the threads in question, you're walking a fine line.

[Immacolata]

Uber Gruber, I know this is easier said than done, but don't take it personally. The threads would've been locked no matter who started them.

Yah, camman now. Cool off and come back. The forums is a nicer place with you around. Jus' dont start preachin' in the publican house :-)

[JScones]

Well, Neal does make the rules quite clear (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=155270) only a few threads above this one.

And arguing the point in public rather than taking it up via PM with Neal/moderator doesn't help either.

But, having said that, I'll respond to a Robert Browning quote with a, erm, Robert Browning quote:
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
Don't be a good man. ;)

[Moeceefus]

silly thing to leave over. breaking the rules and then crying about it when said rules are enforced is quite childish.

[robbo180265]

If you feel the need to leave - then so be it matey.

I'd like to wish you all the best and look forward to (hopefully) seeing you in the future.

[Akula4745]

I sincerely hope that a certain Katana wielding moderator will take this as a warning sign.

Sometimes mods do indeed get over zealous. Your thread questioning the closing of the thread questioning the closing of the thread about the crack was closed in a manner that was flat out rude.

I agree 1000%... and there is absolutely no excuse to be rude to a recognized and established forum member who was asking a legitimate question. If this had been a known troublemaker who was a problem child then maybe the harsh response and wording would have been warranted... but I think Uber Gruber deserved better. The thread closure could have been easily handled respectfully with a better choice of words and a little less Samurai attitude.

Now do I also think UG should have taken it up with Neal via PM instead of posting? Well yes I do... but rude is rude - no excuses.

[captainprid]

I can undersatnd Uber's point of view as probably most people will but the rules are the rules and it really is that simple. I think pirating of games is wrong full stop, I even asked for one of my threads to be closed because it descended in to a discussion about cracking etc. Weither you consider the discussion of piracy the same as condoning it, that's up to you and there are many forums to allow you to do this but this isn't one.

I think it is all academic anyway because as Uber hasn't replied to any of the posts in this thread it would appear he has sailed off in to the sunset which is a shame really. In the same position, maybe I would have taken it personally too but with the benefit of hindsight it is a silly view to take.

[Moeceefus]

I agree 1000%... and there is absolutely no excuse to be rude to a recognized and established forum member who was asking a legitimate question. If this had been a known troublemaker who was a problem child then maybe the harsh response and wording would have been warranted... but I think Uber Gruber deserved better. The thread closure could have been easily handled respectfully with a better choice of words and a little less Samurai attitude.

Now do I also think UG should have taken it up with Neal via PM instead of posting? Well yes I do... but rude is rude - no excuses.


what rudeness? he was simply given the choice of the rules or the door. he chose the door. some might find it rude to defy the rules and reopen a closed thread to protest. we all agree to the same rules on sign up right?

[raymond6751]

So swastikas and third reich eagles is ok, but talking about a perfectly legitimate topic about the same games that have started this very board (which would not be here if not for the GAMES) is prohibited. Nice.

The 'perfectly legitimate topic' isn't legitimate by the rules of the forum. All members agree to those rules when joining, hence are bound by them.

It's about the game. All the rest is just not necessary. This is the forum that it is because somebody has the obligation to see we all follow the rules, and has the task of doing something about it when we don't.

Nobody likes the cops until they need one.

[Aufklarer]

agree

Nobody likes the cops until they need one.

[pythos]

I am going to humbly request that those that want to provide input on the topic please look at all issues involved.

I am seeing people showing signs of "going along to get along".

How many that do this have looked at the threads in question. How many have looked at the initial "cracked" thread, along with all other involved threads.

Yes the initial post dealt with a news article dealing with yet another failure of DRM, a failure that is the result of a crack. However there were no addresses given pertaining to where to get the crack. It was simply an article about the failure of DRM.

The thread from Uber was concerning the closing of this thread. this thread was also closed.

The next thread from uber was asking why that thread had been closed.

The last two threads were no where near being in violation of the rules, and the closing of the second thread is what lead to the ensuing silliness.

Just going "yep yep yep, that's what the rules say, yep yep yep" is not the way to deal with this. You need to look at all items in the discussion. That is the only way we can avoid such situations.

The state of SH5 has really pulled up some bad emotions, and friends have started tearing at each other. I even had someone tell me flat out, they are not here to make friends, which I frankly find sad to say the least. I come here to converse with people with a similar love of a very rare genre of game, one that at the moment is not being served well by its developer.

By the way, this is the post that caused all this silliness.

http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showthread.php?t=168287

Don't just look at the title, look at the content of the article itself.

This article is tantamount to a news company covering a break in. The news organization is only covering the effects from the crooks that did the crime. CNET is doing likewise in this article. I have looked at all hyperlinks and could not find one path to the crack in question. It does however give a glimpse into the thought processes of those that break codes. I read what they say, and I see some pompous little asses frankly. This article covers the effect of the crack, which is that DRM is a failure that has resulted in legit players not being able to play, while pirates play all they want...off the net, on lap top, away from internet connection, and so on.

[mookiemookie]

Just going "yep yep yep, that's what the rules say, yep yep yep" is not the way to deal with this. Of course it is. That IS what the rules say. Neal is quite clear on this. You may not like the rule. You may disagree with the rule. You may have a great argument against the rule. But none of that matters, as it's Neal's rule. If you have an issue with it, take it up with him. Don't publicly call out moderators for enforcing the rules of the site. That alone would be enough to earn you a ban in many internet forums.

You need to look at all items in the discussion. That is the only way we can avoid such situations.

No, the only way to avoid such situations is to abide by the very clearly spelled out rules of the forum.

[kylania]

Yes the initial post dealt with a news article dealing with yet another failure of DRM, a failure that is the result of a crack. However there were no addresses given pertaining to where to get the crack. It was simply an article about the failure of DRM. - Discussing cracks, even discussing articles about cracks, isn't allowed by the rules. END OF STORY. (or at least it should have been..)

The thread from Uber was concerning the closing of this thread. this thread was also closed. - Should have been a PM to the mod that locked it, not a public cry for attention.

The next thread from uber was asking why that thread had been closed. - Should have been a PM to Neal, not yet another public cry for attention.

The last two threads were no where near being in violation of the rules, and the closing of the second thread is what lead to the ensuing silliness. - not against the rules, but no good could come from them.


Last two threads never should have been threads. First thread was properly closed and that decision should have been accepted or discussed with mods via PM. Two fruitless posts and a melodramatic "Oh lordy, I quit!" post is the problem here, not the locking of a thread that was clearly against the rules and yet more DRM spam.

[pythos]

Okay, here we go.

These are the rules concerning this as by Neal himself

"Just to be on the safe side, here's a reminder that Subsim does not allow discussion of stealing games (or borrowing, sampling, however one wishes to rationalize it).

This also means don't discuss cracks, on legal games or not, because there's no way to determine who is using a crack on a legal game or a pirated game. And please, for the love of god, don't jump up and announce to the world you are angry about the DRM and you plan to pirated SH5. This equals ban here.

This is spelled out in the user agreement to everyone when they join the forum and the rules are clear. (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php?faq=susbim_faq_item#faq_rules2_faq_item)

No one cares what you do in your home, or how you measure yourself ethically, but no, you cannot discuss it here."


Now, don't bother clicking on the underlined statement because it leads to an error message.

Now, looking at what Neal has said, I want you to point to me where it says discussion of the EFFECTS OF a crack is prohibited. The Cnet article was about the EFFECT not the crack itself.

As I have said, this is equal to a news agency covering the effects of a break in. Not going into full detail or giving how to instructions of the break in.

Ubisoft's DRM is a very controversial matter as seen by how people have behaved on this normally civil forum.

It is not helped by people ripping into each other, or calling one another names.

[robbo180265]

Last two threads never should have been threads. First thread was properly closed and that decision should have been accepted or discussed with mods via PM. Two fruitless posts and a melodramatic "Oh lordy, I quit!" post is the problem here, not the locking of a thread that was clearly against the rules and yet more DRM spam.

^^ This
I've tried to stay out of this

I've seen many an "I quit" post on other forums , they have only one purpose - to create drama. It seems that you are all falling into the drama trap. Kylania has the situation as I see it to a tee.

Uber Gruber should have PM'd a mod or even Neal if he had a problem, instead he decided to create more threads (and therfore more drama) in a forum that has seen more than its fair share of drama recently and I can't believe that anyone is suprised that his drama threads got locked.

[kylania]

Sorry, the rules don't state anything about "Articles", I was wrong about that. But my point still stands. The original post was nothing but more noisy DRM complaints, when there's already a thread for them. The follow up threads were just a mistake, and this one even more so.

[Jimbuna]

Thinking of looking for the stash of popcorn....again!!

[robbo180265]

Thinking of looking for the stash of popcorn....again!!

Lol - can we share?

[slikster]

"You've come to the wrong shop for anarchy, brother."

[mookiemookie]

Now, looking at what Neal has said, I want you to point to me where it says discussion of the EFFECTS OF a crack is prohibited. The Cnet article was about the EFFECT not the crack itself.


To reiterate:

You may not like the rule. You may disagree with the rule. You may have a great argument against the rule. But none of that matters, as it's Neal's rule. If you have an issue with it, take it up with him. Don't publicly call out moderators for enforcing the rules of the site. That alone would be enough to earn you a ban in many internet forums.

You don't go making threads publicly calling out a moderator's decision on a subject that's very touchy. If you truly had an issue with a decision that you thought was legitimate, you send a PM. You don't buck the system in front of God and everybody in a thread that's nothing but an attention grab, as kylania pointed out. That's rude and disrespectful of the moderators who put up with too much crap in this forum as it is.

[Méo]

I've seen many an "I quit" post on other forums , they have only one purpose - to create drama.

Uber Gruber should have PM'd a mod or even Neal if he had a problem, instead he decided to create more threads (and therfore more drama)

Very good point.

----

DRM or NO DRM, sharing information, news or simply discussing about cracks is not allowed here.

Simple to understand.

And it's easy to imagine the reason behind all this.

----

Even if Ubisoft would (hypothetically) be against the law with the DRM (or illegitimate from an ethical point of view), it would not give you the right to break the rules here.

In other words, even if a company is against the law, it doesn't give me the right to be against the law and steal that company.

In other words (still), if you killed my brother, it doesn't give me the right to kill your brother (silly example, I know, but just in case some didn't get it).

[JScones]

Thinking of looking for the stash of popcorn....again!!
Did someone say Popcorn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYyiMyHv2yk)? :D

[IanC]

In other words (still), if you killed my brother, it doesn't give me the right to kill your brother (silly example, I know, but just in case some didn't get it).

Aha!! I knew under that soft cuddly exterior Meo, beats a heart that is colder and darker than an arctic night... :o

[Westbroek]

In any case, and there are lots of them evidently, so long UG. It's been good reading your thoughts over the years. Hope to see you back some day in the future. Until then, Godspeed you on your journeys.

[Jimbuna]

Did someone say Popcorn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYyiMyHv2yk)? :D

Nice....an everlasting refill/supply :DL

[krashkart]

Did someone say Popcorn (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYyiMyHv2yk)? :D


That was totally corny. :O:

:salute:

[Méo]

Aha!! I knew under that soft cuddly exterior Meo, beats a heart that is colder and darker than an arctic night... :o

Naaa :cool:, that was just a silly example.

[gimpy117]

they way i see it is that there's a difference between discussing wither the game has been cracked and actually discussing how to crack the game.

he was just commenting on how the game was cracked after UBI said it was foolproof. It didn't look like he was asking how to crack the game or showing others how to.

I think you guys pulled the lock lever too soon on that one :down:

[HunterICX]

they way i see it is that there's a difference between discussing wither the game has been cracked and actually discussing how to crack the game.

Again, read the rules of this forum.

it put it very simple, that we do not discuss the topic around here at all.
so if you find your thread locked at the sudden, don't be suprised.

HunterICX

[mookiemookie]

they way i see it is that there's a difference between discussing wither the game has been cracked and actually discussing how to crack the game.

Not in this forum there's not.

[severniae]

Firstly, I think we all need to accept that the discussion of even the word 'crack' or 'pirated' is not allowed here. I may not like it, but there are plenty of other forums around that do allow such discussions, so I'm not overly worried. To be fair this is still probably one of the best game communities I've been involved in to date...so :up:

Secondly, as nothing more that a point of interest. I'd like to enquire as to why the discussion of cracks is not permitted? Please don't mistake my intent to be subversive or stick one up to authority. I'm genuinely interested as to why, and to be fair I think it may do some good to the people in this thread who think that its unfair. After all, its all well and good to say 'No, not allowed, no way, never, final.' However perhaps just a small explanation as to the reasons for such a rule may ease the mind for a few of us. Like I said, I accept that the rules and would never request them to be changed, just am curious as to the reasons.

Sev.

[jdkbph]

Now, looking at what Neal has said, I want you to point to me where it says discussion of the EFFECTS OF a crack is prohibited. The Cnet article was about the EFFECT not the crack itself.

As I have said, this is equal to a news agency covering the effects of a break in. Not going into full detail or giving how to instructions of the break in.

Ubisoft's DRM is a very controversial matter as seen by how people have behaved on this normally civil forum.


Yep. Agreed. Everything is subject to interpretation, but in reading what Uber Gruber wrote I can see no interpretation which would violate what I perceive to be the spirit of this rule. If I am mistaken, then obviously so too are many others here, and perhaps the rule should be further clarified and explained?

(note to those with opposing viewpoints: please don't just continue quoting it... if there is a significant difference of opinion regarding the application of said rule - in this case - there is obviously room for clarification)

What I did see was a member challenging a moderator on a questionable call. Is there a rule against that? If so, it was definitely violated.

With regard to Uber Gruber's treatment... that can easily be perceived as an inappropriate response from the moderator in question. Neal's response did surprise me a bit... at first. But on second thought, the credibility (and effectiveness) of a moderator with no skins on the wall depends on authority. What I saw was the board owner protecting his moderator... all other things being equal. Totally understandable I think.

JD

[jdkbph]

Firstly, I think we all need to accept that the discussion of even the word 'crack' or 'pirated' is not allowed here.

I know this is silly and I'm being intentionally silly to make a point. But didn't you just violate your own "rule"? Are we - you and I - not now, at this very moment, engaging in discussion which prominently features the words 'crack' and 'pirated'?

Where is the line?

As to your request for an explanation of the thinking behind the rule...? I concur. It would be helpful.

JD

[pythos]

The rules need to be clarified that is a given. There is NOTHING in the rules that simply say you cannot say the word Crack, or so on. No where in the rules is the prohibition of the discussion of the effects of cracks. There are clear details about not discussing THE ACTUAL crack. There is clear prohibition on directions to obtaining cracks.

The spirit of the law WAS NOT VIOLATED.

The law needs to be re written.

Oh Cnet's article was not even about sh5. It was about a console game. This article dealt with assassin's creed II.

Oh, and to all those that say it should have been dealt through PM. I have been trying to contact Neal through that method about other things, and have received only on response. He is extremely difficult to contact through that method. So that would not have been any help to U.G.


Also, understand my view here. I in no way support pirates (I am kinda in support of no cd cracks though because I hate leaving my cds or DVDs in my drive, I have heard nightmare stores of how drive failure has resulted in radial scratches in the media which is essentially ruined). Pirates are the reason we legitimate players have to go through all this lunacy. I don't like how the resale value of the game is all be ruined by this DRM. To me it is equal to a car company saying you cannot sell your car to someone else. But that being said, I do not support these entities. But I also do not like to see the unfair application of rules THAT DON'T EXIST. This is where bad policies based on good laws come from. In this case neither the letter of the rule, nor the spirit of the rule was violated.

Uber's leaving of the forum was a wrong move, in my opinion.

[John Channing]

The rules need to be clarified that is a given. There is NOTHING in the rules that simply say you cannot say the word Crack, or so on. No where in the rules is the prohibition of the discussion of the effects of cracks. There are clear details about not discussing THE ACTUAL crack. There is clear prohibition on directions to obtaining cracks.

The spirit of the law WAS NOT VIOLATED.


That is not actually the case. Here it is, cut and pasted from the FAQ (bolding and underlining mine).


We do NOT allow discussion or even mention of warez,abandonware, peer-to-peer game swapping, game cracks, illegal download sites, or illegal file-sharing.


As to the other points being raised perhaps this will inform the discussion. Again, directly from the FAQ (bolding and underlining mine)...



If a member wishes to challenge a Moderator action that involves the member, this challenge must be raised in private via PM or email, not in public.


Neal's house, Neal's rules.

JCC

[Sailor Steve]

Secondly, as nothing more that a point of interest. I'd like to enquire as to why the discussion of cracks is not permitted? Please don't mistake my intent to be subversive or stick one up to authority. I'm genuinely interested as to why, and to be fair I think it may do some good to the people in this thread who think that its unfair. After all, its all well and good to say 'No, not allowed, no way, never, final.' However perhaps just a small explanation as to the reasons for such a rule may ease the mind for a few of us. Like I said, I accept that the rules and would never request them to be changed, just am curious as to the reasons.

Sev.
Subsim Review has a good working relationship with the game industry. In order to keep that good relationship some mutual support is required. On the industry's part this means that Neal gets some inside access, and is treated as a respected equal. On Neal's part it means that he doesn't allow anything that will harm the industry or the relationship.

This doesn't mean he can't or won't say things are good when actually they are bad (just read his SH5 review), and it doesn't mean he's in anybody's pocket. It just means that he has a good relationship and it's in everybody's interest to keep it that way.

That's just what I gather - I don't actually know anything.:sunny:

[gimpy117]

I've known we cant talk about how to hack or steal...but i was unaware that we cant even mention that the game has been cracked :o

I swear I've seen it mentioned before and nobody got locked for it. :06:

[pythos]

Okay, now this quote does indeed cover the issue..

We do NOT allow discussion or even mention of warez,abandonware, peer-to-peer game swapping, game cracks, illegal download sites, or illegal file-sharing.

I have also verified the statement. It is within the FAQs.

I humbly concede the debate.

I will say however, I am not a fan of total prohibition. Reason being. DRM is a security risk. It is intrusive, and can easily be exploited by a crack. I would hope that this community would be the first place I would read of any such exploitation. But with such a prohibition this may not happen.

But I will abide by the rules.

[jdkbph]

That is not actually the case. Here it is, cut and pasted from the FAQ (bolding and underlining mine).

Quote:
We do NOT allow discussion or even mention of warez,abandonware, peer-to-peer game swapping, game cracks, illegal download sites, or illegal file-sharing.



OK fair enough. Then lets apply the rule consistently.

If I, or anyone else, mentions the prohibited words (by which I presume we mean to use one or more of these words in any context what-so-ever) in a post on this board, the thread should be locked - as it was in this case under discussion - and the user warned.

Sounds draconian to me, but as you said, it's Neal's house.



If a member wishes to challenge a Moderator action that involves the member, this challenge must be raised in private via PM or email, not in public.


Thanks for that clarification.

JD

[severniae]

Subsim Review has a good working relationship with the game industry. In order to keep that good relationship some mutual support is required. On the industry's part this means that Neal gets some inside access, and is treated as a respected equal. On Neal's part it means that he doesn't allow anything that will harm the industry or the relationship.

This doesn't mean he can't or won't say things are good when actually they are bad (just read his SH5 review), and it doesn't mean he's in anybody's pocket. It just means that he has a good relationship and it's in everybody's interest to keep it that way.

That's just what I gather - I don't actually know anything.:sunny:

Thanks Seve,

Thats pretty much what I had assumed too, I just wanted it clarifying. In that case it makes perfect sense to say 'no' to threads discussing cracks! People in the gaming industry aren't going to want Neal over to preview a new upcoming game if his forum is littered with people discussing cracks. In effect, Neal IS a member of the gaming industry, and so (through his forum) should be setting an example!

I think that clears it up quite nicely.

Chaps, there are other forums that discuss cracks, some even discuss how to make your own no-cd patches. But we all need to do is remember that its not what we do here. Afterall, I think that most of us, if we had our own forum, would have certain topics that weren't up for discussion.

[Moeceefus]

i cant believe this arguement is still going on. simply because, there is no arguement. the rules are the rules, period. we all agreed to them on sign up and it is nobody's right to question them. people can try to pick apart the wording and make silly assertions as to how they dont apply to this case, but why? are you practicing contract lawyers? if you cant abide by the rules then go elsewhere. start your own site and play the boss there. being part of the community here is a priviledge that other people pay for. they dont have to do this, so the least you can do is respect them and thier rules. its not your place to question any of thier decisions. mind your manners and be thankful for this site.

[Jimbuna]

i cant believe this arguement is still going on. simply because, there is no arguement. the rules are the rules, period. we all agreed to them on sign up and it is nobody's right to question them. people can try to pick apart the wording and make silly assertions as to how they dont apply to this case, but why? are you practicing contract lawyers? if you cant abide by the rules then go elsewhere. start your own site and play the boss there. being part of the community here is a priviledge that other people pay for. they dont have to do this, so the least you can do is respect them and thier rules. its not your place to question any of thier decisions. mind your manners and be thankful for this site.

+1 this post from a relitively new member of our community http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

[gimpy117]

I think the discussion has more moved to the question of if the current rules are a bit harsh

[sergei]

+1 this post from a relitively new member of our community http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/thumbsup.gif

Seconded.
Good post Moeceefus.

[theluckyone17]

Looks to me like the rules weren't applied consistently... and that's what's probably got UG a bit upset.

The rule quoted above is cut and dry. Before the aforementioned incident with UG's thread, I believe there were a few threads referencing other sites proclaiming the "news" that Ubisoft's OSP/DRM had been cracked.

I do remember Neal & the gang stating that they'd relax a bit, allow everyone to complain about the DRM a bit, then start tightening down once our emotions ran their course and we calmed down a bit.

Where I think things fell apart is when UG sees his thread get locked, responds personally (not thinking it's simply the beginning of the "anti-crack lockdown"), and blows it out of proportion. Quite frankly, in my opinion, the reason for locking the threads down could've been a bit better explained and more light hearted ("Sorry, UG... we're not going to discuss the existence of a crack anymore... you know why. We've let things get a little lax around here, and we're going to start enforcing *that* rule more often from now on.")

Instead, people take things personally and the whole thing blows up. Doesn't help that there are people who feel strongly about the DRM/OSP (on both sides), and I have a feeling those opinions are carrying over into this...

[John Channing]

The bottom line is this.

The Forum rules were violated not once, but three times, by the same poster.

The poster did not reveive a temporary ban, permanent ban or any type of sanction at all. All that was done was the offending threads were closed to prevent what would have surely turned into a discussion about the you-know-what..

The OP then decided to "leave" (in a most dramatic fashion).

If anyone wants to leave the Forums that is their right. I have never understood why people have to make public pronouncements about their leaving (when I decided to leave the cesspoll that Frugal's had turned into I just stopped posting... because I knew my leaving wouldn't make a particle of difference) but hey... that's just me. To each their own.

He is welcome to come back. Unless you are a Spambot or a constant violater we don't delete people's accounts. It was his decision to go. No one pushed him.

And rules are rules.

JCC

[captainprid]

It is ironic....actually incredibly ironic that this thread has become what Uber wanted in his second thread. Infact if the rules were levelled, this thread would be locked

[longam]

If anyone wants to leave the Forums that is their right. I have never understood why people have to make public pronouncements about their leaving (when I decided to leave the cesspoll that Frugal's had turned into I just stopped posting... because I knew my leaving wouldn't make a particle of difference) but hey... that's just me. To each their own.

Have to wonder why myself on that point. The drama queen syndrome I guess.

[pythos]

NOBODY, AND I MEAN NOBODY seems to ACTUALLY read the friggin threads!!!. They just jump in.

Did any one see my post with the actual line that shoots the whole argument was indeed posted.

The debate is over. DONE!!! FINITO!!!

But for crying out loud READ THE POSTS before spouting off, PLEASE.

[Reaves]

Rule 1. Don't talk about piracy. :arrgh!:Even when it is a legitimate topic
Rule 2. Don't insult our beloved UBISOFT
Rule 3... Ahh who cares anymore this place is starting to blow...

[mookiemookie]

Rule 1. Don't talk about piracy. :arrgh!:Even when it is a legitimate topic
Rule 2. Don't insult our beloved UBISOFT
Rule 3... Ahh who cares anymore this place is starting to blow...

Rule 1 has been a rule forever. Rule 2 doesn't exist and never has. Therefore, I'm having a hard time seeing how this place has changed at all. :-?

[Onkel Neal]

Rule 1. Don't talk about piracy. :arrgh!:Even when it is a legitimate topic
Rule 2. Don't insult our beloved UBISOFT
Rule 3... Ahh who cares anymore this place is starting to blow...

I believe the reason this forum became popular and attracted a large following is because, for the most part, people here were sensible. You don't have to post here, no one is forcing you.

As for the subject of cracks, the rules, the way people will take a mile when you give them an inch, and how I feel about people who rip off games that the rest of us have to pay for... that's been covered a hundred times here. I just can't go over it again.

[ReallyDedPoet]

Rule 1 has been a rule forever. Rule 2 doesn't exist and never has. Therefore, I'm having a hard time seeing how this place has changed at all. :-?

:sign_yeah:

As well things seem to get a little crazy here every time a new sim is released, especially anything Silent Hunter. In all of that, the FAQ & Rules (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/faq.php) seem to get lost in the mix, or are thrown out the window, to bad as they have made this place what it is today, or at least helped.

After all it's not SUBSIM " Anything Goes ".com

[Akula4745]

Well I for one still love this forum...

I have participated in many forums, but far less than a few have ever made me so comfortable and been so welcoming as SUBSIM. The willingness, patience, and good humor is very genuine and oh so inviting.... as far as the rules go, half the rules are meant to keep this sub sim loving horde in line... and the other half are to give us something to bitch about.

Like two rednecks who whip the pure T hell outta each other in the parking lot... and then stagger back inside laughing about it to buy each other a beer. I say this fight is over... now who needs a cold one?

[IanC]

Well I for one still love this forum...

I have participated in many forums, but far less than a few have ever made me so comfortable and been so welcoming as SUBSIM. The willingness, patience, and good humor is very genuine and oh so inviting.... as far as the rules go, half the rules are meant to keep this sub sim loving horde in line... and the other half are to give us something to bitch about.

Like two rednecks who whip the pure T hell outta each other in the parking lot... and then stagger back inside laughing about it to buy each other a beer. I say this fight is over... now who needs a cold one?

Heck yeah, I'll have a cold one. Now where's Uber Gruber, still out on patrol? Can't wait for him to join us, it's his turn to pay... :DL

[krashkart]

Well I for one still love this forum...

I have participated in many forums, but far less than a few have ever made me so comfortable and been so welcoming as SUBSIM. The willingness, patience, and good humor is very genuine and oh so inviting.... as far as the rules go, half the rules are meant to keep this sub sim loving horde in line... and the other half are to give us something to bitch about.

Like two rednecks who whip the pure T hell outta each other in the parking lot... and then stagger back inside laughing about it to buy each other a beer. I say this fight is over... now who needs a cold one?

If only beer could be posted in a drinkable format. Wouldn't that make us a rowdy lot! :DL



i cant believe this arguement is still going on. simply because, there is no arguement. the rules are the rules, period. we all agreed to them on sign up and it is nobody's right to question them. people can try to pick apart the wording and make silly assertions as to how they dont apply to this case, but why? are you practicing contract lawyers? if you cant abide by the rules then go elsewhere. start your own site and play the boss there. being part of the community here is a priviledge that other people pay for. they dont have to do this, so the least you can do is respect them and thier rules. its not your place to question any of thier decisions. mind your manners and be thankful for this site.

Couldn't have written a finer post, Moeceefus. :up: Welcome aboard, BTW. :DL

[McBeck]

Couldn't have written a finer post, Moeceefus. :up: Welcome aboard, BTW. :DL
I second that!!:agree:

[Zedi]

The only problem with the community argumentation is.. that a community is formed by more than 1 people and usually is based on democracy where multiple voices and opinions can be heard and not communism where if ur opinion is against or differ from the leadership u get banned or worst.

To make sure that the democracy will not become anarchy inside a comunity, there are rules. And these rules are focused against illegal activities, talks and so, not against criticism and different opinions. I suppose we all here live in countries that are based on democracy and we all stand up for what that means.

[theluckyone17]

Hey... it's not like we can't agree to disagree. Do I agree with Neal's stance? Nope. Do I understand where he's coming from? Yep. Can I agree to play by his rules when I'm posting on his site? Yep. I'm a big enough man to do so... I trust that Neal's big enough to stick by his rules.

I've got to give him and the moderators credit, too. Like JC said, it's not like they banned UG. They locked the threads (didn't even delete 'em), stated why (though I believe they could've done it a bit more friendly-like), and that was that. UG didn't get keelhauled, tossed in the brig, or even forced to "wear" that nurse avatar for a week or two :yeah:.

I second that downloadable beer idea, as long as we can do it with whiskey, too. Whiskey makes the world a better place. :()1:

[Zedi]

...Whiskey makes the world a better place. ..

I have to make a tattoo with this quote. :D

[Stormbringer]

Have to wonder why myself on that point. The drama queen syndrome I guess.
I left a couple of forums the same way. I announced my departure because I had friends on these boards, to which the board was my only contact point. Making a quick post was easier than tracking down the dozens of potentially interested parties by PM's to let them know I was departing.

In that, those who were interested in keeping in touch, did so by looking at my profile and sending email.

None of it had anything to do with inciting drama. I couldn't have cared less about that.

[McBeck]

I left a couple of forums the same way. I announced my departure because I had friends on these boards, to which the board was my only contact point. Making a quick post was easier than tracking down the dozens of potentially interested parties by PM's to let them know I was departing.

In that, those who were interested in keeping in touch, did so by looking at my profile and sending email.

None of it had anything to do with inciting drama. I couldn't have cared less about that.But you cant view the email add from the profile and even if you could, he requested his profile to be suspended, which makes it impossible to even view the public profile.

[theluckyone17]

I've left forums in the past because I simply lost interest... that's definitely not worth a "I'm leaving" post.

If I feel like I've got a point to make by me leaving... I'd declare it. Not for drama, but to make the point. Just fading away doesn't make much of a statement... it leaves people wondering where and why you left (if they even notice at all).

Instead, we've got a few pages of folks who noticed. For what it's worth, I think the discussion's useful, too. It reinforces the rules posted above, for folks who might not have noticed otherwise. The DRM/OSP has been bringing out a lot of irritation in people, and I'd rather have that vented off instead of letting it build up.

We need to get working on that downloadable whiskey/beer concept, though... that'd relax things around here :D

[danasan]

We need to get working on that downloadable whiskey/beer concept, though... that'd relax things around here :D

Betatesters needed...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/90/242431745_a22be0c8b0.jpg

-- anybody able to DL?

-- can you open it?

-- can you enjoy it?

...still working on Release...
.

[Zedi]

Whiskey is for the real captains, beer is for the crew.. and ladies :D

We are going offtopic here, but is nothing else left to talk ...

[severniae]

[REL] Downloadable Beer 1.5

Use this mod at own risk. Allows player to download beer direct from forum to allow light (or heavy) intoxicating feeling.

Known bugs,

1) Excessive use can lead to poor submarine control, harbour ramming, excessive shouting and slurred speech.

2) Prolonged excessive use can conflict with the Girlfriend/Wife mods.

3) Can cause problems where ballast tanks require emptying more than usual.

[robbo180265]

[REL] Downloadable Beer 1.5

Use this mod at own risk. Allows player to download beer direct from forum to allow light (or heavy) intoxicating feeling.

Known bugs,

1) Excessive use can lead to poor submarine control, harbour ramming, excessive shouting and slurred speech.

2) Prolonged excessive use can conflict with the Girlfriend/Wife mods.

3) Can cause problems where ballast tanks require emptying more than usual.


:har:

[Akula4745]

[REL] Downloadable Beer 1.5

LMAO!

[UGCnim]

I thought I might throw this in, it can only improve this thread...:salute:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_eYSuPKP3Y

[robbo180265]

I thought I might throw this in, it can only improve this thread...:salute:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M_eYSuPKP3Y

Works for me :salute:

[robbo180265]

Well I for one still love this forum...

I have participated in many forums, but far less than a few have ever made me so comfortable and been so welcoming as SUBSIM. The willingness, patience, and good humor is very genuine and oh so inviting.... as far as the rules go, half the rules are meant to keep this sub sim loving horde in line... and the other half are to give us something to bitch about.

Like two rednecks who whip the pure T hell outta each other in the parking lot... and then stagger back inside laughing about it to buy each other a beer. I say this fight is over... now who needs a cold one?

Agree with this 100% - I subscribe to many forums, it's only Subsim that makes me feel at home:sunny:

[Chubster]

Couldnt be arsed to read the whole thread so excuse if this has been asked but I cant find this DRM Mod anywhere....anyone got a link

[Kongo Otto]

Betatesters needed...

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/90/242431745_a22be0c8b0.jpg

-- anybody able to DL?

-- can you open it?

-- can you enjoy it?

...still working on Release...
.

*Buaaahhh* You call this a Beer? :eek: :har: Oh my God!!
Thank god for beeing bavarian :salute:
http://www.bild.de/BILD/regional/muenchen/dpa/2009/09/29/eine-junge-frau-trinkt-ein-mass-bier,templateId=renderScaled,property=Bild,height= 349.jpg

[badaboom]

Calm Seas to you Captain,Farewell:rock: