Burn Witches! Burn!

[Madox58]

As there are many threads laced with slams towards the Romain Devs,
I'd just like to say a few things.

I don't really care much about the state of this Game so far.
I have this feeling that it will all be good someday.
Much like SH3.

I don't feel I got burned by getting the Game.
I expected MUCH worse!

And delays of patches means little to me.
I know they are working on them.
I've met Dan, and I trust him.

I can joke with him about things and he understands that I joke.
He also listens and cares more then many of you can see.

I'm sure the other Devs do also.

We only harm ourselves by placeing pressure on them
and questioning thier intents.
Put yourselves in thier shoes for just a month!

I doubt few here could even come close to what they attempt!

Yes, they are under some extreme pressure!
Both from Ubi higher ups, and worst of all US!
We should be supporting the Devs!
Not stabbing them in the back!

Flame Suit is on!

Regards!

[Flopper]

Blaming devs for the shortcomings of a product is about like blaming soldiers for losing a battle.

[Moeceefus]

Blaming devs for the shortcomings of a product is about like blaming soldiers for losing a battle.


i agree. honestly i have had a great time with sh5 so far. i have had a few annoying bugs, but nothing game breaking. i also have not had any issues with the drm. whenever i have wanted to play it, i have. i notice most of the people who complain dont even own the game! all i know is that there is far more than one in every crowd. :know:

[Madox58]

Well, in all fairness?
You can blame Soldiers for loseing battles.
History proves that if you care to look.

You can also say Soldiers have won battles that they never should have won.

Not a good example haveing been in situations like that myself.

[TwistedFemur]

I dont blame the developers for this pile of sea snot. I put 100% of the blame on the publishers.:know:

And even drm is removed later winning one batlle does not a war make

[Flopper]

Well, in all fairness?
You can blame Soldiers for loseing battles.
History proves that if you care to look.

Definitely of interest to me. I did a quick google search of "soldiers were to blame" and ended up with the same (fairly humorous) theme.

When were the soldiers to blame (and by soldiers I really am refering o the lower ranks) for losing a battle?

[Lord Justice]

Definitely of interest to me. I did a quick google search of "soldiers were to blame" and ended up with the same (fairly humorous) theme.

(and by soldiers I really am refering o the lower ranks) for losing a battle?The old saying, Foward they cried from the rear!! and the front rank died.

[kylania]

I don't really blame the devs. They've made us some beautiful and amazing games, but in all fairness they have shipped a game made nearly unplayable due to bugs then failed to meet two promised patch release dates. As nice as they are and as much as you trust them, that's a pretty poor performance. Especially since at this point, we don't have any idea when the patch will be coming.

Combine this with the completely unacceptable level of quality (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1121062387/m/4531095458), and poor support (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1121062387/m/2691011048) and utter lack of communication (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1121062387/m/8261009648?r=8171020558#8171020558) from their publisher Ubisoft and you're starting to get into pitchfork and torches territory.

Combine all of that with the most insane and Draconian DRM scheme ever, and... you get where we are today. :cry:

So, love them or hate them, the cards are stacked a mile high against the devs. Patch 1.2 needs to kick some ass and get into players hands very quickly or I doubt you'll see the community turn around much.

[Navarre]

I don't really blame the devs. They've made us some beautiful and amazing games, but in all fairness they have shipped a game made nearly unplayable due to bugs then failed to meet two promised patch release dates.

And they have the experience of the SH4 development (some even from SH3) which bugs and flaws may occur in such a project and that the estimated schedule not fit but they make the same mistakes over and over again.
Either they appreciate the schedule always wrong or let it extremely shorten by the managers without protest. The studio in Bucharest is not an independent studio, it is Ubisosft and as Ubisoft they have to accept the responsibility for the game.

[mobucks]

Blaming devs for the shortcomings of a product is about like blaming soldiers for losing a battle.

good reply.

[Reece]

Ultimately the blame goes to UBISoft for releasing a game in such a terrible state, if the developers said that it was ready then the developers are to blame! However, what I think is that the developers are under such a strain of pressure from the producers (higher up) that they give the go ahead knowing it's not ready but don't really have a choice in the matter, it must get frustrating when they are told to "wrap it up" for release!!:damn:
Even the patches can only go so far, and like any workers they're not going to work for nothing!!:hmmm:
Well that's just a guess but probably not far from the truth, IMO!:-?
PS. And the type of DRM is totally the produces decision!

[Adriatico]

Generals vs Soldiers is too simplified model...

Devs are not children, they are more than capable to explain their internal relations:

"1) Ubisoft is a company, of which Ubisoft Romania is a part. Please stop separating the two. Not everything that is good is our merit, not everything that is bad is "the suits" fault. I, of all people, have my parts in the failures of SH5. The people "high up" could have simply decided not to do another SH, just as you guys can choose not to buy."

[kylania]

The studio in Bucharest is not an independent studio, it is Ubisosft and as Ubisoft they have to accept the responsibility for the game.

Oh, they have accepted the responsibility (http://www.subsim.com/radioroom/showpost.php?p=1292441&postcount=20) for the game. :DL But that's Dan posting on his own, I haven't seen anyone else from Ubisoft corporate be that honest---actually, I haven't seen anyone else from Ubisoft period. Their only official communications have been patch notes and announcements. No one is keeping us updated officially with what's happening.

However, what I think is that the developers are under such a strain of pressure from the producers (higher up) that they give the go ahead knowing it's not ready but don't really have a choice in the matter, it must get frustrating when they are told to "wrap it up" for release!!

The odd thing is that Splinter Cell was pushed back several weeks to "polish it" and just today R.U.S.E. was pushed back to September to make it better. Given the state of SH5, wonder why that didn't happen here since SH5 is obviously the black sheep of the Ubisoft family given how much attention and press it's gotten, ie none.

[Adriatico]

The odd thing is that Splinter Cell was pushed back several weeks to "polish it" and just today R.U.S.E. was pushed back to September to make it better. Given the state of SH5, wonder why that didn't happen here since SH5 is obviously the black sheep of the Ubisoft family given how much attention and press it's gotten, ie none.
Good brain usage...

As I said before... m a y b e it was "offline" GWX4 that should not take place of "DRM baby"... if it was announced for October2010 ?

Flame suite is on!

[captainprid]

Just out of interest, I would love to know the following, obviously I never will but it would be nice to know:

How many developers worked on the game
What was the production budget
What time restraints were put on the developers
What was the development budget compared to the marketing budget
What is the budget for further game development
and
How many devs are still working on the game post release


I think if you answer these questions, you will know who is to blame for the condition of SHV

[kylania]

What was the production budget
What was the development budget compared to the marketing budget
What is the budget for further game development


You missed "What was the beer budget?", perhaps the most important budget when designing games. :DL

[captainprid]

You missed "What was the beer budget?", perhaps the most important budget when designing games. :DL


:up::up:

[Zedi]

I only blame Ubi. And not only the game, but everything in this company. The support, the PR.. everything in this company is just bad. Their logo from now one means "stay away, amateurs inside".

[Jimbuna]

Having also met Dan personally I can add my support to what privateer has posted 'regarding Dan and the dev team'.

I've only one criticism of Dan.........after we parted at Houston airport check-in we never met up again in the flight departure area as agreed.

It must have been Dans turn at the bar :O:

[McBeck]

I have worked with IT projects for more than 5 years. Both as Project Manager and lately as a Program Manager.

Its a fact that the project can scream "The project is not yet done" / "Quality is not good enough" and management can say "We dont care - get it done now, no matter what"

I will bet you that this discussion have happened between the devs and the management...and management didn't listen.

Most likely because they didn't get measured on quality, but on deadlines and budget. Ubisoft management is probably right now doing the blamegame for the poor reviews and sales....wonder who becomes the fallguy

[Zedi]

As a customer, should I care if is the developers or suits fault? Do I really need to care who is what in this fail company?

Also I wonder how come this game is always bugged at release, how come they always fail in test and finish this game? Is just beyond my understanding...

[SilentOtto]

As a customer, should I care if is the developers or suits fault? Do I really need to care who is what in this fail company?

Also I wonder how come this game is always bugged at release, how come they always fail in test and finish this game? Is just beyond my understanding...


Oh sure... We all know knowledge is of no use! geesh...

[McBeck]

As a customer, should I care if is the developers or suits fault? Do I really need to care who is what in this fail company?

Also I wonder how come this game is always bugged at release, how come they always fail in test and finish this game? Is just beyond my understanding...
As a customer you should get what you pay for. If you start pointing fingers - better do it right.

[robbo180265]

I don't really blame the devs. They've made us some beautiful and amazing games, but in all fairness they have shipped a game made nearly unplayable due to bugs then failed to meet two promised patch release dates. As nice as they are and as much as you trust them, that's a pretty poor performance. Especially since at this point, we don't have any idea when the patch will be coming.

Combine this with the completely unacceptable level of quality (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1121062387/m/4531095458), and poor support (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1121062387/m/2691011048) and utter lack of communication (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1121062387/m/8261009648?r=8171020558#8171020558) from their publisher Ubisoft and you're starting to get into pitchfork and torches territory.

Combine all of that with the most insane and Draconian DRM scheme ever, and... you get where we are today. :cry:

So, love them or hate them, the cards are stacked a mile high against the devs. Patch 1.2 needs to kick some ass and get into players hands very quickly or I doubt you'll see the community turn around much.


Thats pretty much my stance on the subject too. If I never buy a UBI game again it will be because of their awful customer support.

You would think that when they decided to use something as contentious as their online DRM they would have added a few more moderators to their English speaking forums, but go there and all you will see is angry people getting absolutely no response to their questions. We found out about the patch delay from the German forums for Christ sake!

No I don't blame the devs at all - but UBI........

[tonschk]

.


........ I LOVE the DRM , and I am very Very HAPPY with the DRM , and I hope UBISOFT will NEVER ... NEVER turn off the DRM

.... What I really REALLY HATE are the pirates


.

[Zedi]

.


........ I LOVE the DRM , and I am very Very HAPPY with the DRM , and I hope UBISOFT will NEVER ... NEVER turn off the DRM

.... What I really REALLY HATE are the pirates


.

Lol, you are valkyrie the only guy on Ubi forum who has nothing else to say than stuff like... "I love SH5, awesome game, ty so much Ubi".
Now this "I LOVE the DRM" line is new, I think you need to crash dive :D

[Placoderm]

.


........ I LOVE the DRM , and I am very Very HAPPY with the DRM , and I hope UBISOFT will NEVER ... NEVER turn off the DRM

.... What I really REALLY HATE are the pirates


.


:nope:

Since this thread had nothing to do with DRM, I can only assume that you are a Troll...

A very sad, pathetic, angry, and possibly even confused, ...troll. :down:
:nope:


:hijacked:

[Nisgeis]

Since this thread had nothing to do with DRM,<SNIP>

Well, it had been mentioned before in posts #3, #5, #8, #11, #14 and #24. All assessing the DRM.

Don't mention the DRM! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it.

[robbo180265]

Don't mention the DRM! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it.

:har::rotfl2::har:

[mcarlsonus]

SH5 has all the qualities of an, "end-of-life" product, i.e. Ubi promised it, but, realizing it's a niche product that doesn't appeal to the now-prevalent, "ADHD-affected" target market (a.k.a., "shoot something, reload, shoot something"), released it prematurely when the allocated budget had been used up. I don't expect to EVER see an SH6 and was actually surprised when they announced they'd release a Patch addressing certain crippling gameplay issues. 'Course, then again, "where IS that Patch," etc., etc., etc.

[Placoderm]

Well, it had been mentioned before in posts #3, #5, #8, #11, #14 and #24. All assessing the DRM.

Don't mention the DRM! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it.

Well...true, it had been mentioned. My bad. What I should have said is that this thread itself was not a DRM lovefest nor a DRM hatefest...but rather a discussion of the role (or lack thereof) that the Devs actually played in the current state of the game, and if it was fair to pin the blame squarely on them, or on other sources.

The reason I considered tonschk to be trolling is that he added nothing to that discussion, and essentially just had a one-man verbal circle-jerk over his somewhat odd attraction to the DRM.

In retrospect, I have added nothing more substantial to the original conversation either, and so should probably just crawl back to my corner, put on my raincoat, and avoid getting soiled by the flying debris from tronschk's inevitable self-gratification.


Carry on!


:salute:

[Commie]

Well, it had been mentioned before in posts #3, #5, #8, #11, #14 and #24. All assessing the DRM.

Don't mention the DRM! I mentioned it once, but I think I got away with it.

Ahh Fawlty Towers... When daydreaming I replay entire episodes in my head and still chuckle aloud at them!

[Nisgeis]

What I should have said is that this thread itself was not a DRM lovefest nor a DRM hatefest...but rather a discussion of the role (or lack thereof) that the Devs actually played in the current state of the game, and if it was fair to pin the blame squarely on them, or on other sources.

Absolutely. It's much better than it was - a few weeks ago every thread devolved to be about DRM, even if it was nothing to do with it. I think though it's fairly inevitable that if we discuss the state of the game or the quality of it, the DRM will be discussed too. Although it isn't a part of the game and again the devs had no part in its inclusion, for the player its still a part of their experience and people will talk about it when they are posting. It's calmed down now so that people can post positive and neutral views on DRM, without being lynched.

I also think tonschk's post was OTT and it could certainly be seen as a troll post. I wasn't really sure if he was being serious or not. It's quite an extreme stance to take :DL.

OK, I'm sorry for hijacking the thread. My stance on the devs is in my sig.

[tonschk]

:arrgh!:

Since this thread had nothing to do with DRM, I can only assume that you are a Troll...

A very sad, pathetic, angry, and possibly even confused, ...troll. :down:
:nope:


:hijacked:


And you are a STUPID IDIOT and also MORON TROLL

,

[Spartan]

For what it is worth, I blame the collective management team - Studio & Ubi decision makers.

[McBeck]

Enough Placoderm and tonschk with the personal attacks... :timeout:

Keep it clean and back on topic :shucks:

[Placoderm]

Enough Placoderm and tonschk with the personal attacks... :timeout:

Keep it clean and back on topic :shucks:

:o

Excuse me?!? What the bleep are you talking about?

You highlight MY name and not the other persons, when all I did was try to keep the thread ON topic by calling out someone who appeard to be obviusly trolling.

Contraty to what your post indicated, it was not I who called someone a "STUPID IDIOT" and a "MORON", and in fact I followed up my 'troll alert' with a post to try to re-focus this thread back to the discussion of the witch hunt. I also indicated in my last post that I was refraining from further comment in this thread specifically because I realized that I was adding nothing to the thread topic and was best to sit this one out and crawl back in my corner.

Now you come on here, accuse me of making personal attacks, and call me out specifically in bold....less than three posts after someone else very personally attacked ME in a post which I had chosen to ignore specifically to avoid further conflict? :stare:

Priceless.


(/defensive rant off)


Back ON topic...I personally DO blame the Devs just as much as I do Ubisoft for the state the game is in. Although Ubisoft imposed a likely draconian timeline for the products' development, it was the designers and the developers who, by definition, had to decide what could be done within those constraints. Much of what is broken with the current game (DRM aside) are things that were changed/added to the previous series that were completely unnecessary to further the immersion. Those things include a (frankly stupid) "role playing" aspect that was both unnecessary and surely required a lot of time to develop, a completely new interface that although it appears a simple change...most assuredly took many weeks of conferences and studys to come up with a workable design (and even more weeks to implement), and numerous smaller changes that appear to have been changed just for the sake of changing.

Ubisoft gets the blame for the timeline and perhaps for a limited budget...but it is the Developers duty to manage that time and budget to focus on what is realistic and what is possible. The design/development team failed in that primary goal just as much as Ubisoft failed to provide them the funding/time needed for a proper makeover.




:hmmm:

[goldorak]

Blaming devs for the shortcomings of a product is about like blaming soldiers for losing a battle.

In the real world it doesn't work like that. Generals can have all the strategic view they want but its the men on the ground that have to implement your strategy.
If your men are poor fighters, nothing is going to reverse your defeat on the battlefield even if you have excellent Generals in your staff.
The 2 go hand in hand. And sometimes victory on the field has been achieved notwithstanding poor strategic and tactical view. Maybe because the adversary was even in worse conditions than your army etc...

The bugs in SH 5 weren't programmed by Ubisoft suits.
It was the dev team that programmed the game. It was the dev team that recycled more or less some parts of SH 3 and 4 for SH 5. It was the dev team that choose to implement features in certain specific ways.
The features and bugs that are present in SH 5 are the dev teams fault and nobody else's if you want to cross every t and dot every i.

And as the lead dev said on this forum, there is no difference between us (dev team) and Ubisoft.
The failure of one is the failure of the other.

;)

[Takeda Shingen]

:o

Excuse me?!? What the bleep are you talking about?

You highlight MY name and not the other persons, when all I did was try to keep the thread ON topic by calling out someone who appeard to be obviusly trolling.

Contraty to what your post indicated, it was not I who called someone a "STUPID IDIOT" and a "MORON", and in fact I followed up my 'troll alert' with a post to try to re-focus this thread back to the discussion of the witch hunt. I also indicated in my last post that I was refraining from further comment in this thread specifically because I realized that I was adding nothing to the thread topic and was best to sit this one out and crawl back in my corner.

Now you come on here, accuse me of making personal attacks, and call me out specifically in bold....less than three posts after someone else very personally attacked ME in a post which I had chosen to ignore specifically to avoid further conflict? :stare:

Priceless.


(/defensive rant off)

I understand your anger at an attempted thread hijack, especially in such a silly manner. Still, technically, you threw the first punch with that 'Troll' comment. In the future, know that this kind of stuff is best left ignored. Never take the bait.

The Management

[Placoderm]

I understand your anger at an attempted thread hijack, especially in such a silly manner. Still, technically, you threw the first punch with that 'Troll' comment. In the future, know that this kind of stuff is best left ignored. Never take the bait.

The Management

Fully and respectfully understood. I should know better, and let such things pass.

Hopefully the second half of my latest post brings more to the conversation and the topic at hand, and helps to dislodge the hook from my gills.


As someone who worked both as a grahic designer and on the executive sales staff with a major publisher, I have a perspective from both sides of the management/development team issue...and am more than aware of the failings, limitations, and frustrations of both sides. In the case of SH5, I think the blame can be properly attributed to everyone involved...and that is in line with what Dan on the development team indicated in his post several weeks back. Any finger-pointing should be circular, if at all, in regards to who was at fault with the games shortcomings, failings, bugs, or questionable design approaches.


:salute:

[Placoderm]

In the real world it doesn't work like that. Generals can have all the strategic view they want but its the men on the ground that have to implement your strategy.
If your men are poor fighters, nothing is going to reverse your defeat on the battlefield even if you have excellent Generals in your staff.
The 2 go hand in hand. And sometimes victory on the field has been achieved notwithstanding poor strategic and tactical view. Maybe because the adversary was even in worse conditions than your army etc...

The bugs in SH 5 weren't programmed by Ubisoft suits.
It was the dev team that programmed the game. It was the dev team that recycled more or less some parts of SH 3 and 4 for SH 5. It was the dev team that choose to implement features in certain specific ways.
The features and bugs that are present in SH 5 are the dev teams fault and nobody else's if you want to cross every t and dot every i.

And as the lead dev said on this forum, there is no difference between us (dev team) and Ubisoft.
The failure of one is the failure of the other.

;)


:sign_yeah:



:rock:

[Flopper]

In the real world it doesn't work like that. Generals can have all the strategic view they want but its the men on the ground that have to implement your strategy.
If your men are poor fighters, nothing is going to reverse your defeat on the battlefield even if you have excellent Generals in your staff.


I'd still shift the blame toward the generals for employing poorly trained fighters before I'd blame the fighters for being poorly trained.

[Takeda Shingen]

Fully and respectfully understood. I should know better, and let such things pass.

All good. We've all done something similar at some point. I'll stop derailing and let you guys get back to your topic.

[kylania]

I'd still shift the blame toward the generals for employing poorly trained fighters before I'd blame the fighters for being poorly trained.

Creepy avatar is creepy. :o

[IanC]

Having also met Dan personally I can add my support to what privateer has posted 'regarding Dan and the dev team'.

I've only one criticism of Dan.........after we parted at Houston airport check-in we never met up again in the flight departure area as agreed.

It must have been Dans turn at the bar :O:

Ok I've seen a few of these "I've met Dan in person..." comments from different members. I'm assuming you guys talked in depth about game development. You're not saying the devs can do no wrong just because you've had a beer with the guy, right? :lol:

[Jimbuna]

Ok I've seen a few of these "I've met Dan in person..." comments from different members. I'm assuming you guys talked in depth about game development. You're not saying the devs can do no wrong just because you've had a beer with the guy, right? :lol:

That is correct http://www.psionguild.org/forums/images/smilies/wolfsmilies/pirate.gif

[IanC]

:up:

[Patkins1983]

I feel sorry for the Dev team, they are at the coalface doing their best and being sold short by the higher ups.

They probably arent as lucky as me, I can say no to a product going out and thats it for 12hrs until the next worker comes on and folds under pressure.

Chances have it they pointed out that the time scale for development wasnt enough and got pressured into making sacrifices to stay in a job.

Well, thats my hat in the ring:)

[McBeck]

You highlight MY name and not the other persons, when all I did was try to keep the thread ON topic by calling out someone who appeard to be obviusly trolling.
Copy/paste error. I did not mean to highlight you more than tonschk.
I guess Ill not make THAT mistake anytime soon!

[Reece]

I feel sorry for the Dev teamI don't! they are on a high pay and do their job like us, what the bosses do with it is their business, maybe a little frustrating but nothing they can do, what annoys me is all our protesting/ranting etc does nothing, UBI PR is :down: I feel sorry for the people who purchased the game!:yep:

[Placoderm]

Copy/paste error. I did not mean to highlight you more than tonschk.
I guess Ill not make THAT mistake anytime soon!

LOL! No problem McBeck...we've got it sorted out! (your intentions were good, and that is what matters anyway!):yeah:


As a bonus...it got me to post something in this thread myself that was on-topic, so overall it was a win-win situation for everyone! (except, of course for those poor confused saps who don't completely agree with me):DL


:salute:

[Zedi]

That is correct
That explains a lot and why so many in this community is so tolerant with the poor game development over the years. So no matter how bugged is the game, Ubi (devs, suits etc) will be threated well because the are "our friends". Not good ...:nope:

Wish I had a similar job, where I can **** up things but get no sanctions just because my customers are my friends.. a real dream job.

[IanC]

That explains a lot and why so many in this community is so tolerant with the poor game development over the years. So no matter how bugged is the game, Ubi (devs, suits etc) will be threated well because the are "our friends". Not good ...:nope:

Wish I had a similar job, where I can **** up things but get no sanctions just because my customers are my friends.. a real dream job.

I think you misinterpreted Jim's answer to me. He was saying it's not just because they had a beer. It's because they talked in depth about game development.

[Zedi]

I think you misinterpreted Jim's answer to me. He was saying it's not just because they had a beer. It's because they talked in depth about game development.

It's the same thing for me. Like I said, I wish I could have a job where I can get friendly with my customers so when I fail, they will cry on my shoulder instead of complaining at the management and get me fired.

[McBeck]

It's the same thing for me. Like I said, I wish I could have a job where I can get friendly with my customers so when I fail, they will cry on my shoulder instead of complaining at the management and get me fired.I think you have misunderstood this whole relationship. Do you really think that we would side with the devs if we thought they were to blame for this mess?

[JScones]

IMHO people here need to stop singling out one man and equating the success of SH5 to his personality. I mean, Dan might be the greatest guy in the world, but he is part of a team...and not a small team by the looks of things.

I think Alexandru Gris, the SH5 Project Manager/Producer (Ubisoft Romania), provides great insight into the workings of the Romanian dev team on his blog (http://alexandrugris.blogspot.com/2009/03/how-to-make-successful-game.html).

To put his comments into perspective, here's the SH4 dev team bios (http://silenthunter4.us.ubi.com/devbio.php).

Read into all this what you like. But certainly, it makes a mockery of comments like "I've met Dan and he's a great guy so don't blame the devs" or "Dan will fix it for us!". Such comments might be true if Dan was the team, Project Manager, or even Lead Programmer, but erm...;)

I'd actually argue that if anything put pressure on him it's comments like "I've met Dan, and I trust him" or "Dan's a great guy, he'll fix it for us". That's a LOT of weight for someone who is a member of a team and is much harder to dismiss as the ramblings of a mad man than the usual "it's all the devs fault".

Anyway, I think Alex's blog entry paints a clear picture that might just challenge the beliefs of some people here...

[Faamecanic]

I somewhat disagree with you Privateer.... but here is why.

IF the devs KNEW the timeline and budget they had before starting development of SH5, then they HAD to know that were in over thier heads. They over promised and under-achived.... meanwhile letting bugs that have been known bugs since SH3 slip through yet again, because they didnt "have time" to address them. That is unexcusable.

IF UBI placed the demands for all the extra goodies, knowing full well the timeline and budget, and ignored the devs in saying "It will be a challange to get that much done on this timeline, with this budget" (in the corporate world that is saying there is no way this can be done, without sounding negative), then shame on UBI for pressuring the Devs.

Bottom line is I can excuse all the minor bugs, I can excuse the lack of depth with the Crew interactions, I can excuse the war ending in 1943, and I can excuse the fact that we only have one sub to command.

What I find totally unacceptable is the bugs that have migrated from each of the SH series that are hard-coded. I find it unaceptable that the UI is an abomination that MOST subsimmers abhor. And I find it unacceptable that any product can be released in such an unfinished state, no matter who is to blame.

That last point needs careful thought. Sure...we here at subsim know our Modders will fix and make SH5 great. But out of all the people that bought SH5... I bet we are a small part of that population. So for the larger part of the population that bought SH5, that have no idea about the moddability of this franchise, how does that look on Ubi? Will these simmers/gamers buy the NEXT SH release (doubtful). How many simmers have been lost with sH3's unfinished release, how many with SH4??

Just look at the title to the review of SH5 in PC Gamer Magazine (the largest US Gamer magazine) .... "20,000 Beta tests Under the sea" and the 55 out of 100 rating. How much harm did that do the franchise's future sales?

IF the devs wanted to chock all this new stuff in to make us happy (and I suspect themselves also) I applaud thier vision. But sometimes you have to reign in your desires and dreams and be realistic.

To me it looks like the Devs vision, while grand!, did more harm than good to the franchise. And releasing a sim that is open and moddable will not help the sales numbers, which in the end is all UBI looks at.

If we are such a niche market, I would think it bad to discourage potential buyers with every release.

Thats my .02 cents...

[Faamecanic]

I have worked with IT projects for more than 5 years. Both as Project Manager and lately as a Program Manager.

Its a fact that the project can scream "The project is not yet done" / "Quality is not good enough" and management can say "We dont care - get it done now, no matter what"

I will bet you that this discussion have happened between the devs and the management...and management didn't listen.

Most likely because they didn't get measured on quality, but on deadlines and budget. Ubisoft management is probably right now doing the blamegame for the poor reviews and sales....wonder who becomes the fallguy

:sign_yeah: Agree with this.... but still think the Dev Project managment takes some of the blame. Had this been the first time they worked for Ubi on SH...then I wouldnt blame them at all.

But we have had three releases now... all of which crammed as much new stuff in as possible, and most of it half done and need 3 + patches to get it working enough to barely call it a final release (one patch being a PAID patch...which was baloney).

So you would think the Dev team would have released this and adjusted accordingly.

What Im trying to say is the blame goes both ways. The devs blame is overpromising/commiting and UBI by not giving enough time or budget. I mean cripes had UBI allowed a few months for beta test....that would have found/fixed most of the major bugs at least.

[McBeck]

I somewhat disagree with you Privateer.... but here is why.

IF the devs KNEW the timeline and budget they had before starting development of SH5, then they HAD to know that were in over thier heads. They over promised and under-achived.... meanwhile letting bugs that have been known bugs since SH3 slip through yet again, because they didnt "have time" to address them. That is unexcusable.

IF UBI placed the demands for all the extra goodies, knowing full well the timeline and budget, and ignored the devs in saying "It will be a challange to get that much done on this timeline, with this budget" (in the corporate world that is saying there is no way this can be done, without sounding negative), then shame on UBI for pressuring the Devs.

Bottom line is I can excuse all the minor bugs, I can excuse the lack of depth with the Crew interactions, I can excuse the war ending in 1943, and I can excuse the fact that we only have one sub to command.

What I find totally unacceptable is the bugs that have migrated from each of the SH series that are hard-coded. I find it unaceptable that the UI is an abomination that MOST subsimmers abhor. And I find it unacceptable that any product can be released in such an unfinished state, no matter who is to blame.

That last point needs careful thought. Sure...we here at subsim know our Modders will fix and make SH5 great. But out of all the people that bought SH5... I bet we are a small part of that population. So for the larger part of the population that bought SH5, that have no idea about the moddability of this franchise, how does that look on Ubi? Will these simmers/gamers buy the NEXT SH release (doubtful). How many simmers have been lost with sH3's unfinished release, how many with SH4??

Just look at the title to the review of SH5 in PC Gamer Magazine (the largest US Gamer magazine) .... "20,000 Beta tests Under the sea" and the 55 out of 100 rating. How much harm did that do the franchise's future sales?

IF the devs wanted to chock all this new stuff in to make us happy (and I suspect themselves also) I applaud thier vision. But sometimes you have to reign in your desires and dreams and be realistic.

To me it looks like the Devs vision, while grand!, did more harm than good to the franchise. And releasing a sim that is open and moddable will not help the sales numbers, which in the end is all UBI looks at.

If we are such a niche market, I would think it bad to discourage potential buyers with every release.

Thats my .02 cents...
Dealing with projects is never simple - Things always go wrong. You can have a budget, you can a scope and you can have a plan, but the fact is that sooooo many things can and will happen. Its all about how you deal with it.
In this case we will never know the full story - thats for sure.

[Zedi]

Dealing with projects is never simple - Things always go wrong. You can have a budget, you can a scope and you can have a plan, but the fact is that sooooo many things can and will happen. Its all about how you deal with it.
In this case we will never know the full story - thats for sure.

And how is possible this happens only with Ubi and SH?!? How come no other company fail so much than Ubi?! How is possible that a big part of this community is still willing to accept these fails, over and over again. This is just beyond my understandings ..

[Stronghold]

And how is possible this happens only with Ubi and SH?!? How come no other company fail so much than Ubi?! How is possible that a big part of this community is still willing to accept these fails, over and over again. This is just beyond my understandings ..
Sheep instinct, plain and simple answer. And also, an answer that is hard to swallow by some.

[McBeck]

And how is possible this happens only with Ubi and SH?!? How come no other company fail so much than Ubi?! How is possible that a big part of this community is still willing to accept these fails, over and over again. This is just beyond my understandings ..Last I checked Ubi was the only company that did WWII sub sims...

[Flopper]

Sheep instinct, plain and simple answer. And also, an answer that is hard to swallow by some.

It's hard for me to swallow, since it's wrong.

[Feuer Frei!]

How is possible that a big part of this community is still willing to accept these fails, over and over again. This is just beyond my understandings ..
Quiet simple really...in my case anyway, and i'm certain there are others out there in the community that have the game (yes, i finally purchased the game a week ago) that are not happy with the product, it's "state" and patch delays but are not continuously bleating dissatisfaction at every opportunity that comes our way (namely when a new thread is started and the topic seems to in a lot of cases fall back onto old ground). What happened to actually addressing the thread title?
Just because we the gameowners who don't flood the forum with the usual comments, doesn't mean to say we aren't happy, far from it.
It has been stated that a patch update has been delayed, for whatever reason.
It has been stated that the current gameplay is not satisfactory (buggy).
It requires certain "elements" to play the game.
All known facts and factors that i, amongst others "adopted" when purchasing the game.
It is also a known fact that life goes on, that comments have been raised about this game and how unsatisfactory it is.
It is also a well-known fact that life goes on and that certain things in life are beyond my control and that i cannot, to the fullest of my powers change the original state of release of this game, nor can i, with all my will power and physical strength change the release date of the newest patch on the horizon.
So, considering this, i certainly could have taken the stance and not bought the game to show my dissatisfaction that way, but, after reading numerous threads about how people actually are able to get a decent and playable "chunk" ot of this game, i took the steps to purchase the game.
Just because i am waiting patiently and not flooding threads with my dissatisfaction doesn't mean to say i am not displeased with the state of this game.
However, what it does mean is that, unless i had majority share in Ubisoft and it's interests and a direct say in it's day-to-day runnings, which i don't, then i will sit back and await further support for this game, via patches and such. Not a great deal i can do about that.
And further support and hard work from the modders, to whom i'm endlessly greatful for.
Yes i know, we are all entitled to our opinions, sure, of course we are, no arguements or disrespect here, the above is my opinion, as a game owner, not everyone thinks like me, nor do i expect them too, but i can honestly say that rather than flooding threads with posts of how rubbish the company is or how stupid the delay of the patch is, or how stupid the people are that are involved in this game, be a little bit more creative and diplomatic with your posts, be a little more original in your thoughts and displeasure, i am not advocating you shouldn't voice your opinions, far from it, just show a little tact, and don't fall into the easy trap of just posting "yea Ubisoft s****, or the Devs are stupid, or other such monotonous comments.
The patch will come when it comes, the game has been released mostly unsatisfactory, online requirements are needed to play, modders are required to polish the game and to make it more enjoyable, yes, but, that is all in the past now, this is here and now.
You have the game, you paid good money for it, i'm sorry that the product you bought wasn't satisfactory, i truly am (no sarcasm here), but for goodness sake, let's move on.
Old saying:
"If you don't like something in your life, then change it".

[Flopper]

And how is possible this happens only with Ubi and SH?!? How come no other company fail so much than Ubi?! How is possible that a big part of this community is still willing to accept these fails, over and over again. This is just beyond my understandings ..

Only Ubi and SH? I'll assume that's some kind of language issue, otherwise the notion is absurd.

I've had more fun with sh3 than any other game, ever. It's #1 on my all time favorites list. I'm also enjoying sh4... not perfect, but it's up there pretty high on my list. IL2 is another Ubi product that I rate high. I guess if I could only keep one company's games on my system, I'd have to go with Ubi. So I guess they get some leeway since they're one of the few companies that even ATTEMPT to make simulators.

[Feuer Frei!]

Only Ubi and SH? I'll assume that's some kind of language issue, otherwise the notion is absurd.

I've had more fun with sh3 than any other game, ever. It's #1 on my all time favorites list. I'm also enjoying sh4... not perfect, but it's up there pretty high on my list. IL2 is another Ubi product that I rate high. I guess if I could only keep one company's games on my system, I'd have to go with Ubi. So I guess they get some leeway since they're one of the few companies that even ATTEMPT to make simulators.
Indeed, patch issues and bugs and the need for mods are not indicative of Silent Hunter 5, ie Ubosift only!

[robbo180265]

Quiet simple really...in my case anyway, and i'm certain there are others out there in the community that have the game (yes, i finally purchased the game a week ago) that are not happy with the product, it's "state" and patch delays but are not continuously bleating dissatisfaction at every opportunity that comes our way (namely when a new thread is started and the topic seems to in a lot of cases fall back onto old ground). What happened to actually addressing the thread title?
Just because we the gameowners who don't flood the forum with the usual comments, doesn't mean to say we aren't happy, far from it.
It has been stated that a patch update has been delayed, for whatever reason.
It has been stated that the current gameplay is not satisfactory (buggy).
It requires certain "elements" to play the game.
All known facts and factors that i, amongst others "adopted" when purchasing the game.
It is also a known fact that life goes on, that comments have been raised about this game and how unsatisfactory it is.
It is also a well-known fact that life goes on and that certain things in life are beyond my control and that i cannot, to the fullest of my powers change the original state of release of this game, nor can i, with all my will power and physical strength change the release date of the newest patch on the horizon.
So, considering this, i certainly could have taken the stance and not bought the game to show my dissatisfaction that way, but, after reading numerous threads about how people actually are able to get a decent and playable "chunk" ot of this game, i took the steps to purchase the game.
Just because i am waiting patiently and not flooding threads with my dissatisfaction doesn't mean to say i am not displeased with the state of this game.
However, what it does mean is that, unless i had majority share in Ubisoft and it's interests and a direct say in it's day-to-day runnings, which i don't, then i will sit back and await further support for this game, via patches and such. Not a great deal i can do about that.
And further support and hard work from the modders, to whom i'm endlessly greatful for.
Yes i know, we are all entitled to our opinions, sure, of course we are, no arguements or disrespect here, the above is my opinion, as a game owner, not everyone thinks like me, nor do i expect them too, but i can honestly say that rather than flooding threads with posts of how rubbish the company is or how stupid the delay of the patch is, or how stupid the people are that are involved in this game, be a little bit more creative and diplomatic with your posts, be a little more original in your thoughts and displeasure, i am not advocating you shouldn't voice your opinions, far from it, just show a little tact, and don't fall into the easy trap of just posting "yea Ubisoft s****, or the Devs are stupid, or other such monotonous comments.
The patch will come when it comes, the game has been released mostly unsatisfactory, online requirements are needed to play, modders are required to polish the game and to make it more enjoyable, yes, but, that is all in the past now, this is here and now.
You have the game, you paid good money for it, i'm sorry that the product you bought wasn't satisfactory, i truly am (no sarcasm here), but for goodness sake, let's move on.
Old saying:
"If you don't like something in your life, then change it".

+1 excellent post - sums up the way I feel , especially the bit I've bolded:up:

[Decoman]

I suppose the only answer to why SH5 is what it is, is simply because I don't deserve it.

[Zedi]

Feuer, I think that people should have higher quality standards and expectations when buy things. The "this is the only sub sim, so I take what is given and shut up" argument is a poor one. With this you just encourage the producer to further develop low quality games and services.

Seriously, putting aside we are talking about a game here, actually this is a brilliant business model. Developing products or services for a small but constant market where is no quality expectations is actually a gold mine. I don't give a rat ass about what my customers think or say, if they want my product, they better shut up and pray that I keep this business up.

It remembers me the Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi" episode!

[Feuer Frei!]

Feuer, I think that people should have higher quality standards and expectations when buy things. The "this is the only sub sim, so I take what is given and shut up" argument is a poor one. With this you just encourage the producer to further develop low quality games and services.

Seriously, putting aside we are talking about a game here, actually this is a brilliant business model. Developing products or services for a small but constant market where is no quality expectations is actually a gold mine. I don't give a rat ass about what my customers think or say, if they want my product, they better shut up and pray that I keep this business up.

It remembers me the Seinfeld's "Soup Nazi" episode!
Certainly my post isn't meant to infer that people should shut up and not complain, nor does it infer that people should be happy with an unfinished product.
It also doesn't advocate that people don't have a right, as paying customers to expect a good, quality product.
If you read my post, it does none of the things you allege.
It neither alleges or indicates that this is my arguement and that people should NOT complain.
And i think that the developer will either produce more sub sims or turn to other ventures alltogether, i don't think i will have any input into that with my previous post (s).
What however it does do is iterate the stance that we, as game owners should think more carefully about HOW we make our dissatisfactions known to this community.
By posting the usual "blah blah blah s***s, or blah blah blah is delayed, or blah blah blah is not good enough posts is what i am talking about.
Do we need to copy each other's complaint posts?
Let's be a bit more "reasonable", realistic and original in our postings of non-satisfaction of a product.
And in some cases, do we need to continue to post the same negatives. given that we are truly all aware now of the current situation?
I'll be the first to show my displeasure when buying a product if it does not show at minimum a quality design and something that i am happy to pay money for.
But, that doesn't mean to say that i say repeatedly to the shop assistant the same complaint, knowing full well that there are alternative means and ways to do this.
I stand to be corrected.

[Faamecanic]

Dealing with projects is never simple - Things always go wrong. You can have a budget, you can a scope and you can have a plan, but the fact is that sooooo many things can and will happen. Its all about how you deal with it.
In this case we will never know the full story - thats for sure.

Absolutely understand this.... Im a project manager for a large aerospace firm. And have seen firsthand what happens when people overpromise to to thier customers... and the suffering it causes in the terms of canceled programs, layoffs, and overall damage it does.

In the DEVs case... I understand wanting to include everything and make your customers go WOW!!! Problem is they have made the same mistake 3 times now..... and havent learned from it.

The price to be paid?? Maybe no SH6? That not only hurts us Subsim grognards (?) but also the Devs as now they will be looking for work elsewhere.

I would have rather seen a SH5 based off of SH4. With some graphics tweaks, and most of the bugs worked on first. THEN if the devs had time start adding new stuff. Better to release a updated and complete product that new users will go WOW! to, and the niche market...us...would go meh its ok..nothing new, then to release something that will turn off most new users due to bugs and have every major game review publication slam.

Again to quote PC Gamer "it seems very obvious that UBI is relying on the MOD community to fix this game"... Not good. But at least the MODDERS got some Props!!

[Kresge]

In the DEVs case... I understand wanting to include everything and make your customers go WOW!!! Problem is they have made the same mistake 3 times now..... and havent learned from it.
!

I agree. SHIII and IV were great games, how could they screw up se many things in SHV while not even working from a clean slate? It was all right there in front of them to improve and tweak. They should know what the customer wants by now and and be very familiar with how a subsim should function. Omitting little things like a compass shows me that they obviously haven't been paying attention to us over the years. It just looks like somebody got fixated on the role playing and 3D interior and they couldn't even get that done well.

I'll blame Ubi management if they ever decide on SHVI and keep the same dev team. This is the sort of stuff people get fired over. The third iteration of a product should be an improvement. I don't care how nice the guys are, or if they had a low budget, or short timeline. They screwed up plain and simple. They had a great product to start with and disemboweled the thing. :down:

[McBeck]

In the DEVs case... I understand wanting to include everything and make your customers go WOW!!! Problem is they have made the same mistake 3 times now..... and havent learned from it.
I'm still not convinced that this was in fact the devs call.
My bet is that something took longer than planned - happens in all projects. Sometimes you can mitigate and absorb the delay and sometimes you can not. So what to do? Do you delay or do you launch?

[Garion]

Ye Gods!! When I saw the title of this thread I thought 'The Burning Times' had begun again and that I would have to hide under the bed :cool:

I'll get my coat:oops:

Cheers

Garion

[Flopper]

I don't care how nice the guys are, or if they had a low budget, or short timeline. They screwed up plain and simple.

Right, then. Chalk another one up to "no matter what, the devs are to blame."

[Placoderm]

Right, then. Chalk another one up to "no matter what, the devs are to blame."

Right, then. Chalk another one up to "no matter what, the devs are without any blame."


I think the true answer lies somewhere in-between...



:salute:

[Flopper]

Right, then. Chalk another one up to "no matter what, the devs are without any blame."


I think the true answer lies somewhere in-between...



:salute:

You can put me down for "The devs ARE NOT to blame." Next question.

[robbo180265]

Right, then. Chalk another one up to "no matter what, the devs are to blame."

Really - honestly, does it matter who's fault it was ?

Hopefully the patch will sort out the serious problems in a few weeks, till then either find something else to play (I've rediscovered SH3 GWX) or mod the game and play it - it's not a bad game , just needs some tweaking.

But arguing over who's fault it is won't change the way the game is at the moment , or even fix it - so why bother?

Especially as you are never going to find out who was responsible - so its all subjective anyway...

[Flopper]

Really - honestly, does it matter who's fault it was ?

Hopefully the patch will sort out the serious problems in a few weeks, till then either find something else to play (I've rediscovered SH3 GWX) or mod the game and play it - it's not a bad game , just needs some tweaking.

But arguing over who's fault it is won't change the way the game is at the moment , or even fix it - so why bother?

Especially as you are never going to find out who was responsible - so its all subjective anyway...

I thought it was the topic of this thread.

[robbo180265]

I thought it was the topic of this thread.


It is - and it's a fruitless topic IMO;)

[Nisgeis]

I thought it was the topic of this thread.

Not according to the OP, which was 'we should be supporting the devs, not stabbing them in the back'.

[Flopper]

Not according to the OP, which was 'we should be supporting the devs, not stabbing them in the back'.

I almost quoted that as the second sentence of my post. I guess I'm missing something.

[Nisgeis]

I almost quoted that as the second sentence of my post. I guess I'm missing something.

Er, I'm saying the point of the thread wasn't to try to find out who's fault it was or who was resposible for it - whatever 'it' may be (DRM/Bugs/Lack of soup recipes). Your reply read as if you were saying that it was the topic of the thread... is that what you were saying?

[Flopper]

Er, I'm saying the point of the thread wasn't to try to find out who's fault it was or who was resposible for it - whatever 'it' may be (DRM/Bugs/Lack of soup recipes). Your reply read as if you were saying that it was the topic of the thread... is that what you were saying?

The way I read it, the topic of the thread is about the current witch hunt going on (blaming the devs). I have to admit, I'm surprised so many people not only don't support the devs, but they blame them for the state of sh5.

Personally, I don't see how they could be to blame, and maybe that's because I'm a dev myself, and have been through so many projects and know how they work. The posts of McBeck ring very true for me.

Privateer said try to put yourself in their shoes for a month. Still, so many just sit on the sidelines and take pot shots. It's quite easy to do, and apparently quite fashionable. What amuses me is I suspect that half the people in the "the devs are to blame" crowd wouldn't know a cosine from a derivative.

My original statement which compared blaming devs to blaming soldiers was meant to be across the board, not just pertaining to Ubi or SH5. I don't even have the game.

I'll give this thread a rest now. :salute:

[JScones]

You can put me down for "The devs ARE NOT to blame." Next question.
Yes, you've said this a few times, but I'm curious to hear what your logical rationale is, apart from a tenuous analogy.

See, for someone to say that the devs are "not to blame" must mean that they consider the devs to be dumb Lemmings that did exclusively what they were told to do by "the suits"TM. Yet I can't imagine a gang of Ubisoft France people standing over the shoulder of the devs saying "type this, remove that, change this", can you? Heck, I reckon most of Ubisoft France would have no idea about the intricacies of U-boat warfare. Why would they?

See, I think the devs are actually smarter than that. I give them credit. I don't think they are robots at all. I think they had a level of autonomy to influence design and content - and if Alex's blog view is an indication of how he managed SH5, then I am sure of it.

So, let's look at what I mean by "level of autonomy". That would imply that they had some input, pitched a concept, an idea. Heck, they had to convince Ubisoft France in the first place, and as Dan said himself, Ubisoft didn't have to agree to do another SH game. This statement by one of the team leads alone demonstrates that the devs had at least some autonomy over the design and content.

Now, autonomy means control. With control comes responsibility. With responsibility comes accountability.

So all it would take for the devs to be part of the "blamestorming" would be one autonomous, heck even semi-autonomous, decision made by the PM, the team leads or even the team. Essentially ANY decision THEY made that affected the final product.

Or are you maintaining that the devs were mere Lemmings that sat there making no decisions at all and simply typed only what Ubisoft France told them to? If so, then I think that's more offensive to their intelligence than simply saying they suxxors. At least in the latter case their creative input is being acknowledged, even if not favourably. You're simply failing to acknowledge it at all. In fact, by not attributing any blame to the devs, you are essentially saying that all the GOOD parts of the game are the handiwork of Ubisoft France as well. I mean, you're not trying to say that the bad stuff is the fault of "the suits"TM yet the good stuff is the result of the devs, are you? Because it doesn't work that way.

Anyway, it's all moot. I don't care who's to blame. As long as Ubisoft (collective) fixes it, that's all that really matters. Let the blamestorming happen behind the Ubisoft boardroom doors, if they even feel it necessary, is what I say.

What we do know for sure though is that after reviews like PC Gamer's, mud will stick to everyone involved in SH5.

BTW Flopper, I'm a program director. Started life as a software engineer and worked up. I've been in the shoes of both the devs and the suits. After 12 years or project managing I think I have a bit of an idea how projects work. ;)

[Reaves]

As there are many threads laced with slams towards the Romain Devs,
I'd just like to say a few things.

I don't really care much about the state of this Game so far.
I have this feeling that it will all be good someday.
Much like SH3.

I don't feel I got burned by getting the Game.
I expected MUCH worse!

And delays of patches means little to me.
I know they are working on them.
I've met Dan, and I trust him.

I can joke with him about things and he understands that I joke.
He also listens and cares more then many of you can see.

I'm sure the other Devs do also.

We only harm ourselves by placeing pressure on them
and questioning thier intents.
Put yourselves in thier shoes for just a month!

I doubt few here could even come close to what they attempt!

Yes, they are under some extreme pressure!
Both from Ubi higher ups, and worst of all US!
We should be supporting the Devs!
Not stabbing them in the back!

Flame Suit is on!

Regards!

I paid for a product. I demand my monies worth.

If I failed this badly in my workplace I would be fired. I deal with custom applications that handly crucial aspects of our business in hundreds of locations accross Australia. If I can't deliver on the promised time-line I announce it and state the reason.

If the devs are under-resourced it is UBI's problem. They should be informing us of the delay and of a new ETA. This is a joke. We are paying customers and we are treated like fecal matter.

YOU can be happy but how dare you criticise others for complaining when it's valid. We are the ones who have been stabbed, in the pocket that holds our wallets and purses (in some rare cases.)

People who mock those who complain should be banned just as much as I would be banned for insulting you. Saying we bitch and whine are insults and I will not stand for this.

Good day sir. :down:

[Capt_Sluggo]

Saying we bitch and whine are insults and I will not stand for this.

Yes, bitch and whine. Bitch and whine. Bitch and whine. Then bitch and whine some more.

I have close friends who, like me, have bought every version of SH (and FS and Far Cry ad infinitum) for decades. We were and are very informed buyers. We can read all the reviews both from magazine pundits and real users via forums. We can make informed decisions to buy the product or not. We made our choices based on experience and an abundance of published information, and so can everyone else.

If one made the decision to pre-purchase SH5 (and "surprise" disappointment is to serve as the basis for bitch and whine)... well, given releases 3 and 4 and the vast information concerning both releases in this forum and in other sources one should have known exactly what to expect. No excuse. SH5 is a work in progress, like its predecessors.

If you don't like the product, sorry but no sympathy here. You had a lot of information regarding its faults from Day One. Should not have bought it.

:salute:

[Zedi]

...

If you don't like the product, sorry but no sympathy here.

...

I swear, I wish I could have you guys as my customers, would be my dream job.
That's all I have to say as I got my official warnings, so I need to shut up.

/dive

[Flopper]

Yes, you've said this a few times, but I'm curious to hear what your logical rationale is, apart from a tenuous analogy.

I believe I said it just the once, if I'm not mistaken.


See, for someone to say that the devs are "not to blame" must mean that they consider the devs to be dumb Lemmings that did exclusively what they were told to do by "the suits"TM.

That logic is weak.

Yet I can't imagine a gang of Ubisoft France people standing over the shoulder of the devs saying "type this, remove that, change this", can you? Heck, I reckon most of Ubisoft France would have no idea about the intricacies of U-boat warfare. Why would they?

I can't imagine it either.

See, I think the devs are actually smarter than that. I give them credit. I don't think they are robots at all. I think they had a level of autonomy to influence design and content - and if Alex's blog view is an indication of how he managed SH5, then I am sure of it.


I also think they are smart humans.

So, let's look at what I mean by "level of autonomy". That would imply that they had some input, pitched a concept, an idea. Heck, they had to convince Ubisoft France in the first place, and as Dan said himself, Ubisoft didn't have to agree to do another SH game. This statement by one of the team leads alone demonstrates that the devs had at least some autonomy over the design and content.

Now, autonomy means control. With control comes responsibility. With responsibility comes accountability.

So all it would take for the devs to be part of the "blamestorming" would be one autonomous, heck even semi-autonomous, decision made by the PM, the team leads or even the team. Essentially ANY decision THEY made that affected the final product.

Or are you maintaining that the devs were mere Lemmings that sat there making no decisions at all and simply typed only what Ubisoft France told them to? If so, then I think that's more offensive to their intelligence than simply saying they suxxors. At least in the latter case their creative input is being acknowledged, even if not favourably. You're simply failing to acknowledge it at all. In fact, by not attributing any blame to the devs, you are essentially saying that all the GOOD parts of the game are the handiwork of Ubisoft France as well. I mean, you're not trying to say that the bad stuff is the fault of "the suits"TM yet the good stuff is the result of the devs, are you? Because it doesn't work that way.

I'm maintaining that the responsibilty for success or failure of a product lies squarely on the shoulders of whomever signs the paychecks.

Anyway, it's all moot. I don't care who's to blame.

Well, that was quite a dissertation then, considering you don't care and it's all moot.

As long as Ubisoft (collective) fixes it, that's all that really matters. Let the blamestorming happen behind the Ubisoft boardroom doors, if they even feel it necessary, is what I say.

Amen.


What we do know for sure though is that after reviews like PC Gamer's, mud will stick to everyone involved in SH5.

Perhaps, but mud washes off fairly easily.


BTW Flopper, I'm a program director. Started life as a software engineer and worked up. I've been in the shoes of both the devs and the suits. After 12 years or project managing I think I have a bit of an idea how projects work.

Congrats!

[Pintea]

I'll blame Ubi management if they ever decide on SHVI and keep the same dev team. This is the sort of stuff people get fired over. The third iteration of a product should be an improvement. I don't care how nice the guys are, or if they had a low budget, or short timeline. They screwed up plain and simple. They had a great product to start with and disemboweled the thing. :down:
Do you think sh5 was done with the same team as sh3 ? or even sh4 ? or even sh4 add-on ? :)
Take it as you will...

[Faamecanic]

It is - and it's a fruitless topic IMO;)


Here goes robbo with the "self" flogging again

<<<---- hands robo the cat'o'nine tails..... :yep:

[Faamecanic]

Yes, you've said this a few times, but I'm curious to hear what your logical rationale is, apart from a tenuous analogy.

See, for someone to say that the devs are "not to blame" must mean that they consider the devs to be dumb Lemmings that did exclusively what they were told to do by "the suits"TM. Yet I can't imagine a gang of Ubisoft France people standing over the shoulder of the devs saying "type this, remove that, change this", can you? Heck, I reckon most of Ubisoft France would have no idea about the intricacies of U-boat warfare. Why would they?

See, I think the devs are actually smarter than that. I give them credit. I don't think they are robots at all. I think they had a level of autonomy to influence design and content - and if Alex's blog view is an indication of how he managed SH5, then I am sure of it.

So, let's look at what I mean by "level of autonomy". That would imply that they had some input, pitched a concept, an idea. Heck, they had to convince Ubisoft France in the first place, and as Dan said himself, Ubisoft didn't have to agree to do another SH game. This statement by one of the team leads alone demonstrates that the devs had at least some autonomy over the design and content.

Now, autonomy means control. With control comes responsibility. With responsibility comes accountability.

So all it would take for the devs to be part of the "blamestorming" would be one autonomous, heck even semi-autonomous, decision made by the PM, the team leads or even the team. Essentially ANY decision THEY made that affected the final product.

Or are you maintaining that the devs were mere Lemmings that sat there making no decisions at all and simply typed only what Ubisoft France told them to? If so, then I think that's more offensive to their intelligence than simply saying they suxxors. At least in the latter case their creative input is being acknowledged, even if not favourably. You're simply failing to acknowledge it at all. In fact, by not attributing any blame to the devs, you are essentially saying that all the GOOD parts of the game are the handiwork of Ubisoft France as well. I mean, you're not trying to say that the bad stuff is the fault of "the suits"TM yet the good stuff is the result of the devs, are you? Because it doesn't work that way.

Anyway, it's all moot. I don't care who's to blame. As long as Ubisoft (collective) fixes it, that's all that really matters. Let the blamestorming happen behind the Ubisoft boardroom doors, if they even feel it necessary, is what I say.

What we do know for sure though is that after reviews like PC Gamer's, mud will stick to everyone involved in SH5.

BTW Flopper, I'm a program director. Started life as a software engineer and worked up. I've been in the shoes of both the devs and the suits. After 12 years or project managing I think I have a bit of an idea how projects work. ;)

Well said JS....well said.

And I agree with you...if IN THE END....UBI gives the Devs the money and time to FIX SH5... then its all good.

The shoddy release will still leave a black eye on UBI and Devs...even with a patch. You know..the whole "First Impressions" sayinig....

[robbo180265]

Here goes robbo with the "self" flogging again

<<<---- hands robo the cat'o'nine tails..... :yep:

Ta matey:yeah:

No-one listens to me anyway lol.

[609_Avatar]

Well, I don't think giving some blame to the devs is stabbing them in the back. How should we support them? By buying the game no matter what? By praising them no matter the condition of the game? I personally think both are to blame, as Dan himself has stated. You can't separate the two. It's the same company with different jobs but both had their hands in the final product and share the "blame" for the state the game is in. Of course, all IMHO. :)

[John Channing]

Ta matey:yeah:

No-one listens to me anyway lol.

I'm sorry... did you say something? I wasn't listening.

JCC

[robbo180265]

I'm sorry... did you say something? I wasn't listening.

JCC

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

























:har:

[IanC]

Well, I don't think giving some blame to the devs is stabbing them in the back. How should we support them? By buying the game no matter what? By praising them no matter the condition of the game? I personally think both are to blame, as Dan himself has stated. You can't separate the two. It's the same company with different jobs but both had their hands in the final product and share the "blame" for the state the game is in. Of course, all IMHO. :)

That's right, we keep forgetting about Dan's own statement on the matter.

[Onkel Neal]

Ok I've seen a few of these "I've met Dan in person..." comments from different members. I'm assuming you guys talked in depth about game development. You're not saying the devs can do no wrong just because you've had a beer with the guy, right? :lol:


No, no one is suggesting the devs can do no wrong, even Dan would be the first to admit when they fall short. Game development is not easy. Nit picking and ill-informed rants are easy. That's why they're so common.

[JScones]

No, no one is suggesting the devs can do no wrong, even Dan would be the first to admit when they fall short.
No need to even speculate on that one, Neal. As a few people have already pointed out in this thread, Dan stuck up his hand on the official day of release acknowledging his contribution to the "failures of SH5" (his words). While he can't be considered the dev team's voice of authority (something people here seem to continually forget; only Alex or his representative can speak on behalf of the entire dev team), it's pretty clear that, fortunately for us, at least one of the dev team leads has accepted responsibility for their role in the melodrama called SH5. Hard then for anyone else to argue that the devs were blameless, eh?

And isn't it much more refreshing reading something like "Yes, we stuffed up, now let us fix it", than "Us? No, it's all someone else's fault, take it up with them <points in the direction of France>"? I may not think highly of SH5, but I always think highly of anyone who admits when they were wrong, and even moreso if they commit to an action plan to fix it.

[IanC]

Ok I've seen a few of these "I've met Dan in person..." comments from different members. I'm assuming you guys talked in depth about game development. You're not saying the devs can do no wrong just because you've had a beer with the guy, right? :lol:

No, no one is suggesting the devs can do no wrong, even Dan would be the first to admit when they fall short. Game development is not easy. Nit picking and ill-informed rants are easy. That's why they're so common.

Yes of course, but I just want to say that "can do no wrong" was meant as a figure of speech, not to be taken literally.

[limkol]

We are all in the same boat. We are all p*ssed off about something or other about the game. Me too. This patch thing isn't helping to make things better. Too little too late, maybe. But thank God for the good modders.

I understand people's disappointment, hatred of compulsory internet connection, stupid almost comical mistakes etc etc. I could go on but it's all been said before.

I hate businesses not taking notice of their customers. But I know that there are also businesses that don't take notice of their employees. I don't know if this is the case with Ubisoft. But in defence of Dan, I have to say that the very fact that he is a member of this forum....and we know his name....is positive. And before you ask, yes I have met him. I've not had a beer with him. But he did seem genuinely interested in u-boats and the game. Make up your own minds.

Don't get me wrong, I do think that the direction Ubisoft has taken is a scandal. Lack of communication = lack of respect for their loyal customers. Just wish there was more competition in the u-boat sim market.

But I'll still play the game....but I'm checking out the mod workshop to get improvements for the game. The worst thing about this patch delay is, the fact that the modders might have to make their mods again when the new patch finally comes out. It's them I feel most sorry for....the UNPAID UNOFFICIAL developers of the game....the modders.

that's just my 50 cents.

[Cohaagen]

Blaming devs for the shortcomings of a product is about like blaming soldiers for losing a battle.

http://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4249/laughingsmiley.gifhttp://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4249/laughingsmiley.gifhttp://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4249/laughingsmiley.gifhttp://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4249/laughingsmiley.gifhttp://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4249/laughingsmiley.gifhttp://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4249/laughingsmiley.gifhttp://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4249/laughingsmiley.gifhttp://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4249/laughingsmiley.gifhttp://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4249/laughingsmiley.gifhttp://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4249/laughingsmiley.gifhttp://img594.imageshack.us/img594/4249/laughingsmiley.gif

Worst analogy/attempt at profundity/metaphor ever? Can it be matched?

I'm only kidding, of course - blaming me for this post is like blaming people who think up something and post it on the internet.

Subsim will eat itself.





PS: I blame the cleaners, myself.

[Jimbuna]

I'm sorry, I think (but the repitition is quite......entertaining)



http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/6942/popcorncowtx0.gif

[mookiemookie]

t I always think highly of anyone who admits when they were wrong, and even moreso if they commit to an action plan to fix it.

My dad taught me that when I was growing up. He said everyone is going to make a mistake in life - the measure of a man is what he does afterwards.