Large Neutral Convoy = Paydirt!

[krashkart]

Had never pursued a neutral convoy before, but one popped up earlier this afternoon while I was patrolling west of Biscay. On a whim I figured I better check it out, so I broke from the patrol and went after them. A couple of days later we found them and wouldn't you know it, there were three neutral ships out of fifteen. Party time! :woot:

Now I know. :D

[pickinthebanjo]

What were the rest British?

[krashkart]

Guess it would help if I elaborate, huh. :hmmm:

Yes, the rest (including the escorts) were Brit. I had always assumed that neutral convoys would be composed entirely of neutral ships. :DL

[Snestorm]

Very educational thread.

No more reading "neutral", and turning the other way.
I always avoided them.

[pickinthebanjo]

Very educational thread.

No more reading "neutral", and turning the other way.
I always avoided them.

Same here

[Jimbuna]

The convoy is designated by the lead ship but does not automatically mean everything else in the convoy is the same.

If the lead vessel had of been a submarine (nad yes, some do exist in GWX) the the square or diamond shape would be 'round/circular' but obviously the other elements of the convoy would more than likely be ships.

Conversely, the lead ship that was coloured red on the map wouldn't automatically mean everything else in the convoy was an enemy....ther might also be a submarine and or a few neutrals.

Hope this helps clarify a few points.

[krashkart]

^^ Thanks Jim. :up:

[frau kaleun]

The convoy is designated by the lead ship but does not automatically mean everything else in the convoy is the same.

If the lead vessel had of been a submarine (nad yes, some do exist in GWX) the the square or diamond shape would be 'round/circular' but obviously the other elements of the convoy would more than likely be ships.

Conversely, the lead ship that was coloured red on the map wouldn't automatically mean everything else in the convoy was an enemy....ther might also be a submarine and or a few neutrals.

Hope this helps clarify a few points.

Yep, I got a report of an enemy convoy on my last patrol - when I got there, it was mostly made up of British ships but there were some neutrals in the center of it and a sub bringing up the rear.

I wonder though, with this "neutral" convoy that turned out to be mostly British, were there escorts and were the escorts also British (or from another enemy nation)? What would happen if you attacked an enemy ship in the midst of a convoy escorted by ships from a neutral country... would the neutral escorts come after you? Or are there no neutral ships doing escort duty in the Eastern half of the Atlantic?

[krashkart]

Yep, I got a report of an enemy convoy on my last patrol - when I got there, it was mostly made up of British ships but there were some neutrals in the center of it and a sub bringing up the rear.

I wonder though, with this "neutral" convoy that turned out to be mostly British, were there escorts and were the escorts also British (or from another enemy nation)? What would happen if you attacked an enemy ship in the midst of a convoy escorted by ships from a neutral country... would the neutral escorts come after you? Or are there no neutral ships doing escort duty in the Eastern half of the Atlantic?

There were three British destroyers tending the flock when I arrived. If I understand jimbuna correctly, the group will be reported as neutral if the lead ship belongs to a neutral country, and of course will be reported as an enemy convoy if the lead ship belongs to the Allies.

In this encounter I recall there being a neutral ship at the head of the convoy, in the center column. That must have been the group's lead ship, as the other two neutrals were in the left rear quarter of the formation.

[derrinurban]

I wonder though, with this "neutral" convoy that turned out to be mostly British, were there escorts and were the escorts also British (or from another enemy nation)? What would happen if you attacked an enemy ship in the midst of a convoy escorted by ships from a neutral country... would the neutral escorts come after you? Or are there no neutral ships doing escort duty in the Eastern half of the Atlantic?

Yes they do, believe me,know first hand. I did the same thing in about 1940. A neutral convoy, well, lets go have a look. Sailing on the surface, midday, sun shining. I approach the convoy, waving hello (might as well be friendly to my fellow sailors), watching through the UZO.

Escorted by American destroyers, should be no problem as long as I don't attack. I look over the convoy as I am approaching, suddenly, we are taking damage , sir!

What! Where! From who? Apparantly a destroyers job is to protect everyone in the convoy. Who knew! :damn:

Took a lot of damage and got the hell out of there.

[frau kaleun]

American escorts I would expect to go after anyone that attacked a convoy even before Dec '41... IIRC by the time they started escorting convoys anywhere beyond US coastal waters FDR had already made a point of saying the US would do everything possible to ensure safe passage across the Atlantic and the US Navy was expected to back that up as needed.

I just didn't know if any other nominally neutral nations actually had their own military vessels escorting convoys due to the possibility of attacks being made on their own ships by mistake (or, you know, maybe you left port as a neutral but became somebody's enemy three days out to sea).

I always assumed that any protection would be British and/or American depending on date and location, but I wasn't sure.

[Jimbuna]

Yep, I got a report of an enemy convoy on my last patrol - when I got there, it was mostly made up of British ships but there were some neutrals in the center of it and a sub bringing up the rear.

I wonder though, with this "neutral" convoy that turned out to be mostly British, were there escorts and were the escorts also British (or from another enemy nation)? What would happen if you attacked an enemy ship in the midst of a convoy escorted by ships from a neutral country... would the neutral escorts come after you? Or are there no neutral ships doing escort duty in the Eastern half of the Atlantic?

Because hostilities have commenced, you would not invoke the 'renegade rule'.....but if you mistakenly attacked a neutral you know of the 24hr consequences I'm sure.

[frau kaleun]

Because hostilities have commenced, you would not invoke the 'renegade rule'.....but if you mistakenly attacked a neutral you know of the 24hr consequences I'm sure.

Yep. I guess I'm just curious if there even is the possibility of encountering a convoy with neutral non-US escorts, seems like the Atlantic convoy system was implemented by Britain and then backed up by the US as far as escort duty goes... obviously the convoys included ships from neutral nations, but I've never heard any mention of any of their military vessels providing protection.

[Weiss Pinguin]

I don't believe the USN had any warships attached until after they got involved. Seems like it would be pointless anyways, since the US was neutral at the time, so any warships providing escort wouldn't really been able to do anything if the convoy came under attack. Or could they? :hmmm:

[Exakt]

They got involved in September 1941, in a somewhat "unofficial" way.


SEPTEMBER 1941
Battle of the Atlantic - Escort carrier "Audacity" sailed with UK/Gibraltar convoy OG74. Her American-built Martlet fighters shot down the first Kondor to fall victim to an escort carrier, but U-boats still managed to sink five merchantmen. The US Navy started to escort HX and ON convoys between Newfoundland and Mid Ocean Meeting Point (MOMP), south of Iceland, where the Royal Navy took over. Five US destroyers began on the 17th with HX150 (50 ships). Earlier on the 4th, the first incident occurred when US destroyer "Greer" on passage to Iceland was in action with "U-652". There was no damage or loss to either ship. The increased number of U-boats available to Adm Doenitz (approaching 200 with 30 operational) allowed him to establish patrol lines in the Atlantic. It was into these that the two SC convoys 42 and 44 (above), had stumbled with such heavy losses. Convoys SL87 and HG73 also lost badly and the four convoys between them saw a total of 36 merchant ships went down.


Monthly Loss Summary
- 53 British, Allied and neutral ships of 200,000 tons in the Atlantic from all causes, and 1 escort
- 2 German and 2 Italian U-boats


taken from : http://www.naval-history.net/WW2CampaignsAtlanticDev.htm

[frau kaleun]

IIRC the US Navy started to escort Atlantic convoys in late 1941 after the drafting of the Atlantic Charter. In fact I'm pretty sure the Reuben James was on escort duty when she was sunk by Topp's boat in Oct '41, and she was the first US Navy ship lost in the war.

[Exakt]

The US weren't in an open war with Germany until they went into war with Japan, but yes, they were in the battle of the Atlantic since September 1941, as my previous post shows.

[Jimbuna]

Without delving into my books or bookmarked links, FDR kept pushing the area of US protection eastward and whilst the US was not officially at war yet, they gave a guarantee of safe passage to the merchants and eventually instructed their warships to attack if they or their charges were threatened.

Don't anyone forget the Canadians stood by the UK long before the US declared war.

IMHO FDR was the best American President in terms of friendship towards the UK....without him and his efforts to change the hearts and minds of the US people, we'd have been sorely stretched and may not even have survived as long as we did prior to America joining in the hostilities.

Without a shadow of a doubt, America was indeed the 'Arsenal Of Democracy'.

[frau kaleun]

Don't anyone forget the Canadians stood by the UK long before the US declared war.

From what I have read the contribution made by the Canadians was nothing short of extraordinary, I don't think they had much of a navy to speak of in 1939 but apparently they ended up providing a substantial portion of the men and ships involved when all was said and done.

[Exakt]

Don't anyone forget the Canadians stood by the UK long before the US declared war.


I haven't forgotten them, since I am a Canadian myself, but at the beginning of WWII, we had a meager military navy (RCN) and also, we were still using the same ensign as the British back then, so it is easy to think that a ship is British. By the end of the Battle of the Atlantic (1939-1945) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Atlantic_%281939-1945%29), the RCN was the primary navy in the northwest sector of the Atlantic Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Ocean) and was responsible for the safe escort of innumerable convoys and the destruction of many U-boats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-boats) — an anti-submarine capability that the RCN would build upon during the post-war. By the outbreak of war in September 1939, the RCN still had only six destroyers and a handful of smaller ships. Also, a lot of merchants gave their lives, since Canada had the 2nd world's biggest merchant navy in WWII.

[Jimbuna]

I haven't forgotten them, since I am a Canadian myself, but at the beginning of WWII, we had a meager military navy (RCN) and also, we were still using the same ensign as the British back then, so it is easy to think that a ship is British. By the end of the Battle of the Atlantic (1939-1945) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_the_Atlantic_%281939-1945%29), the RCN was the primary navy in the northwest sector of the Atlantic Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Ocean) and was responsible for the safe escort of innumerable convoys and the destruction of many U-boats (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-boats) — an anti-submarine capability that the RCN would build upon during the post-war. By the outbreak of war in September 1939, the RCN still had only six destroyers and a handful of smaller ships. Also, a lot of merchants gave their lives, since Canada had the 2nd world's biggest merchant navy in WWII.

So true....it is also factual that the Canadians were often treated as the poor relation by the UK and US in terms of the release of vessels and modified/newly available equipment.

[Exakt]

So true....it is also factual that the Canadians were often treated as the poor relation by the UK and US in terms of the release of vessels and modified/newly available equipment.

True, and somewhat still true, the last subs we have bought are old UK diesel subs, the HMCS Chicoutimi, within a few weeks of its delivery had encountered some issues. After the repairs, the Chicoutimi was decommissionned. But one thing still is true, we still have one of the best anti-submarine warfare navies there is. We often train in such scenarios with the US and we VERY OFTEN beat their subs or beat them to it (when they use one of theirs as the "target" who is a threat to North America).

[Jimbuna]

True, and somewhat still true, the last subs we have bought are old UK diesel subs, the HMCS Chicoutimi, within a few weeks of its delivery had encountered some issues. After the repairs, the Chicoutimi was decommissionned. But one thing still is true, we still have one of the best anti-submarine warfare navies there is. We often train in such scenarios with the US and we VERY OFTEN beat their subs or beat them to it (when they use one of theirs as the "target" who is a threat to North America).

I remember there was one diesel sub you purchased off us that experienced a fire whilst transitting on the surface....tragically one of the Canadian crew lost their life as a consequence :nope:

[Exakt]

I remember there was one diesel sub you purchased off us that experienced a fire whilst transitting on the surface....tragically one of the Canadian crew lost their life as a consequence :nope:

yeap, that was the Chicoutimi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Chicoutimi_%28SSK_879%29

[Jimbuna]

yeap, that was the Chicoutimi. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMCS_Chicoutimi_%28SSK_879%29

That was definitely most unfourtanate :nope:

[Weiss Pinguin]

Well, I guess you learn something new every day. Didn't know about the USN's involvement in the early war, thanks for the info.

[Capt. Morgan]

...we still have one of the best anti-submarine warfare navies there is. We often train in such scenarios with the US and we VERY OFTEN beat their subs or beat them to it ...

I remember watching an interview with a Canadian naval officer shortly after we'd purchased those three Upholder-Class subs. He explained that the U.S.N. always requested the Canadian subs for training exercises with their ASW forces because the diesel boats much stealthier then the American nuclear subs.

When the reporter asked him if a Canadian sub had ever sunk an American carrier in exercises, he gave a huge beaming grin, and after a bit of a pause said that he was not at liberty to answer that question.



Well, I guess you learn something new every day. Didn't know about the USN's involvement in the early war, thanks for the info.

Also, the U.S.N. made a habit of broadcasting un-enciphered contact reports of any U-Boats they sighted - well before they had become involved in WWII. Technically, this was not a breach of their neutrality, but it sure was useful information for the allies.